Build a simpler mousetrap and the world will ...?
July 2, 2024 6:18 PM Subscribe
The host of YouTube channel driving 4 answers talks here about a new record set by the Koenigsegg Jesko for 0 - 400km/h (249 mph) - 0. They then pivot to what car manufacturers can learn from the design of this car in reducing the environmental impact of cars generally.
There have been quite a few discussions here about the excess of modern cars, particularly in the US market. The host describes a simple, cheap, practical car previously manufactured by Toyota - one that never made it to US, Australian or many other markets and which was replaced by an improved version that was heavier, slower and less efficient. Obviously, nobody wants that :-(
Previous link of this Youtube channel by me here.
There have been quite a few discussions here about the excess of modern cars, particularly in the US market. The host describes a simple, cheap, practical car previously manufactured by Toyota - one that never made it to US, Australian or many other markets and which was replaced by an improved version that was heavier, slower and less efficient. Obviously, nobody wants that :-(
Previous link of this Youtube channel by me here.
It's interesting that both Ford (THE American car company) and Chevrolet.(the Other American car company) have both pretty much given up on cars. They're just doing SUVs and trucks now (Except for one car each). Buick is all 'SUVs. Cadillac is still car centric, but they're anything but affordable.
It's just sad when the last man standing is f***ing Tesla.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:33 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]
It's just sad when the last man standing is f***ing Tesla.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:33 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]
"Reducing the environmental impact of cars generally" - oh, let me guess - do they siuggest that you just use a bus or a bike instead ?
posted by silence at 1:41 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]
posted by silence at 1:41 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]
The host describes a simple, cheap, practical car previously manufactured by Toyota - one that never made it to US, Australian or many other markets
The car they're describing is the Toyota Aygo.
Cars were generally like that back then. It didn't seem that long ago that you could buy a brand new Ford Fiesta in 2009 for AUD 15,750 (USD 10,500). I drove a Ford Fiesta for awhile that was rated at 4.4L/100km - and I actually achieved that level of fuel economy - which isn't far off the Toyota Aygo's 4.7L/100km official rating. Both Asian and American automakers produced simple, cheap and practical cars, but consumers in US and Australia simply had no interest in buying them. And that's a regional thing, as recently as 2017 the Ford Fiesta was the number 1 selling car in Europe, outright. For 2023... Fiesta isn't even in the top 10, and number 1 is the Tesla Model Y.
You just made me somewhat nostalgic for the past... sometimes the past is better haha.
posted by xdvesper at 2:22 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]
The car they're describing is the Toyota Aygo.
Cars were generally like that back then. It didn't seem that long ago that you could buy a brand new Ford Fiesta in 2009 for AUD 15,750 (USD 10,500). I drove a Ford Fiesta for awhile that was rated at 4.4L/100km - and I actually achieved that level of fuel economy - which isn't far off the Toyota Aygo's 4.7L/100km official rating. Both Asian and American automakers produced simple, cheap and practical cars, but consumers in US and Australia simply had no interest in buying them. And that's a regional thing, as recently as 2017 the Ford Fiesta was the number 1 selling car in Europe, outright. For 2023... Fiesta isn't even in the top 10, and number 1 is the Tesla Model Y.
You just made me somewhat nostalgic for the past... sometimes the past is better haha.
posted by xdvesper at 2:22 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]
The Aygo is a slightly smaller version of the Mk1 Yaris/Echo/Vitz, which was sold in the US 1999-2005.
The Model Y being number 1 is an anomaly caused largely by Tesla not splitting its sales amongst many models or nameplates. Most of the other top 10 cars in Europe are small hatchbacks, and if the Opel Corsa and Peugeot 208 were counted together (they're pretty much the same car) they would far outstrip the model Y.
posted by grahamparks at 4:47 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]
The Model Y being number 1 is an anomaly caused largely by Tesla not splitting its sales amongst many models or nameplates. Most of the other top 10 cars in Europe are small hatchbacks, and if the Opel Corsa and Peugeot 208 were counted together (they're pretty much the same car) they would far outstrip the model Y.
posted by grahamparks at 4:47 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]
The video mentions that small cars are under threat in multiple countries, and mentions Japan drastically curtailing the tax benefits to owning a kei car in 2014.
More history on that one from the New York Times (archive.ph link). The stated reason from the government at the time is pretty plausible, though you can of course doubt its sincerity: kei cars make the Japanese car industry less competitive, because kei cars are a uniquely Japanese phenomenon; they aren't exported anywhere else and the markets for those cars would be pretty limited even if they were. Focusing so much energy on building what the government claimed was a sort of Darwinian dead end was a fool's game.
Of course, kei cars still exist and are still popular today; the best-selling car in Japan of 2023 was the Honda N-Box, a tall and boxy kei car. It was also the best-selling car of 2022 and 2020. And 2019. Oh, and 2018, when the top four vehicles were all kei cars. Clearly people in Japan still buy them in large numbers. So why doesn't (or can't) Japan export these to other countries?
The answer to this is probably very complicated, so I can't claim to know this one. But I suspect that when you boil it down to essentials, it's probably something along the lines of Japan having made room for kei cars from a regulatory and urban planning standpoint, in ways that other places have been more reluctant or completely unable to do. It almost certainly is the answer in North America, where the very vehicular environment itself seems actively hostile to anything smaller than a crossover.
That said, I do wonder why places that seem like they'd be more amenable, like various European countries, haven't really seen kei car equivalents take off. The smart fortwo is the only one that really comes to mind, and while I think the things look pretty neat from a distance, I know their reception has been mixed over the years.
posted by chrominance at 6:26 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]
More history on that one from the New York Times (archive.ph link). The stated reason from the government at the time is pretty plausible, though you can of course doubt its sincerity: kei cars make the Japanese car industry less competitive, because kei cars are a uniquely Japanese phenomenon; they aren't exported anywhere else and the markets for those cars would be pretty limited even if they were. Focusing so much energy on building what the government claimed was a sort of Darwinian dead end was a fool's game.
Of course, kei cars still exist and are still popular today; the best-selling car in Japan of 2023 was the Honda N-Box, a tall and boxy kei car. It was also the best-selling car of 2022 and 2020. And 2019. Oh, and 2018, when the top four vehicles were all kei cars. Clearly people in Japan still buy them in large numbers. So why doesn't (or can't) Japan export these to other countries?
The answer to this is probably very complicated, so I can't claim to know this one. But I suspect that when you boil it down to essentials, it's probably something along the lines of Japan having made room for kei cars from a regulatory and urban planning standpoint, in ways that other places have been more reluctant or completely unable to do. It almost certainly is the answer in North America, where the very vehicular environment itself seems actively hostile to anything smaller than a crossover.
That said, I do wonder why places that seem like they'd be more amenable, like various European countries, haven't really seen kei car equivalents take off. The smart fortwo is the only one that really comes to mind, and while I think the things look pretty neat from a distance, I know their reception has been mixed over the years.
posted by chrominance at 6:26 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]
And that's a regional thing, as recently as 2017 the Ford Fiesta was the number 1 selling car in Europe, outright. For 2023... Fiesta isn't even in the top 10, and number 1 is the Tesla Model Y.
The Fiesta was discontinued halfway through 2023. Thanks Australia and the US.
posted by Dysk at 6:59 AM on July 3
The Fiesta was discontinued halfway through 2023. Thanks Australia and the US.
posted by Dysk at 6:59 AM on July 3
...consumers in US and Australia simply had no interest in buying [simple, cheap and practical cars]...
I don't want to be all "Not All Car-Buyers," but I can't buy what isn't for sale. The non-SUV/non-truck product lines are being reduced almost to zero. Small vehicles that remain (e.g., Mini Cooper) are not cheap.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:00 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]
I don't want to be all "Not All Car-Buyers," but I can't buy what isn't for sale. The non-SUV/non-truck product lines are being reduced almost to zero. Small vehicles that remain (e.g., Mini Cooper) are not cheap.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:00 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]
The Fiesta - best selling car in Europe in 2017 - was available in the USA until 2019. They stopped it earlier there because it wasn't selling. 20-70k units a year for the decade leading up to discontinuation, mostly around 40k. They sold 93k in Britain alone in 2017.
Not many were buying them even when you could.
posted by Dysk at 7:13 AM on July 3
Not many were buying them even when you could.
posted by Dysk at 7:13 AM on July 3
But if you make cars more efficient, how are you going to sustain profits for GM and Halliburton? What s going to happen to the value of all that debt ExxonMobil has leveraged from oil discoveries that they won't drill for another 30 years?
I think you are forgetting the role of the government under capitalism. The spice must flow.
posted by eustatic at 7:43 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]
I think you are forgetting the role of the government under capitalism. The spice must flow.
posted by eustatic at 7:43 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]
heavier, slower and less efficient. Obviously, nobody wants that :-(
That's just crazy talk! Oil companies want it. You socialists are hurting the only ones that are keeping society functioning. You're evil!
Eustatic said it: Thespice black gold must flow.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:47 AM on July 3 [3 favorites]
That's just crazy talk! Oil companies want it. You socialists are hurting the only ones that are keeping society functioning. You're evil!
Eustatic said it: The
posted by BlueHorse at 10:47 AM on July 3 [3 favorites]
If there were many affordable 2-occupant vehicles on the market, I feel like there would be little need for >2-occupant vehicles unless one was responsible for transporting someone who could not drive.
Policy proposal: require an additional license to operate or purchase a >2-occupant vehicle. Be generous with the licenses (at first muahaha) for anyone who can give a good reason to need one, automatically qualify needs we can anticipate like parenthood. Everyone does have to pass a test though to demonstrate they understand the requirements attached to being granted the responsibility of throwing so much more additional kinetic energy and danger around a shared public resource, such as roads and highways – just like we do for CDLs.
posted by 1024 at 11:24 AM on July 3
Policy proposal: require an additional license to operate or purchase a >2-occupant vehicle. Be generous with the licenses (at first muahaha) for anyone who can give a good reason to need one, automatically qualify needs we can anticipate like parenthood. Everyone does have to pass a test though to demonstrate they understand the requirements attached to being granted the responsibility of throwing so much more additional kinetic energy and danger around a shared public resource, such as roads and highways – just like we do for CDLs.
posted by 1024 at 11:24 AM on July 3
...consumers in US and Australia simply had no interest in buying [simple, cheap and practical cars]...
I don't want to be all "Not All Car-Buyers," but I can't buy what isn't for sale. The non-SUV/non-truck product lines are being reduced almost to zero. Small vehicles that remain (e.g., Mini Cooper) are not cheap.
This is very true and car makers have clearly driven people away from small, cheap cars in the interest of profit. People have and have always had a choice about what they buy, but have gulped down the kool-aid sold by manufacturers. Clearly, almost nobody needs a highly complex, expensive large vehicle, but that's what they want and, until governments start incentivising cheaper cars, almost nobody will buy them. To be viable, cheap cars need to sell in huge numbers, so the only way forward I can see is a weight tax on vehicles.
The Model Y being number 1 is an anomaly caused largely by Tesla not splitting its sales amongst many models or nameplates
In Australia, it's not #1, but it is the country's best selling sedan (the only other sedan in the top 20 being the Model S) and was #6 in 2023 overall. The top five were all, of course, either utes (trucks to residents of the US) or SUVs, noting that the utes and SUVs topping the charts here are not the monstrosities so popular in the US, but mid-sized vehicles with small diesel powerplants and are much more reasonable as a family car than an F150 or Suburban. Those huge trucks and SUVs are available here, but having to be imported in small numbers and converted to right-hand-drive means they are way out of reach of almost everyone, starting at around $150k.
posted by dg at 3:22 PM on July 3
I don't want to be all "Not All Car-Buyers," but I can't buy what isn't for sale. The non-SUV/non-truck product lines are being reduced almost to zero. Small vehicles that remain (e.g., Mini Cooper) are not cheap.
This is very true and car makers have clearly driven people away from small, cheap cars in the interest of profit. People have and have always had a choice about what they buy, but have gulped down the kool-aid sold by manufacturers. Clearly, almost nobody needs a highly complex, expensive large vehicle, but that's what they want and, until governments start incentivising cheaper cars, almost nobody will buy them. To be viable, cheap cars need to sell in huge numbers, so the only way forward I can see is a weight tax on vehicles.
The Model Y being number 1 is an anomaly caused largely by Tesla not splitting its sales amongst many models or nameplates
In Australia, it's not #1, but it is the country's best selling sedan (the only other sedan in the top 20 being the Model S) and was #6 in 2023 overall. The top five were all, of course, either utes (trucks to residents of the US) or SUVs, noting that the utes and SUVs topping the charts here are not the monstrosities so popular in the US, but mid-sized vehicles with small diesel powerplants and are much more reasonable as a family car than an F150 or Suburban. Those huge trucks and SUVs are available here, but having to be imported in small numbers and converted to right-hand-drive means they are way out of reach of almost everyone, starting at around $150k.
posted by dg at 3:22 PM on July 3
While the Ranger / Hilux in Australia is indeed "mid-sized" it's not actually much lighter, as CAFE requirements in the US for the past few decades mandated a fuel efficiency target that is achieved by building certain parts of the cars out of lighter material, typically aluminum.
The rest of the world never really care about fuel efficiency, only pollutants, so use of lightweight materials never went mainstream.
The F-150 Lariat 3.5L has a kerb weight of 2555kg, while the Ranger Wildtrak 4x4 3.0L which is the most in-demand spec has a kerb weight of 2353kg... and the Everest Wildtrak 4x4 3.0L has a kerb weight of 2488kg, within spitting distance of the F-150.
posted by xdvesper at 5:34 PM on July 3
The rest of the world never really care about fuel efficiency, only pollutants, so use of lightweight materials never went mainstream.
The F-150 Lariat 3.5L has a kerb weight of 2555kg, while the Ranger Wildtrak 4x4 3.0L which is the most in-demand spec has a kerb weight of 2353kg... and the Everest Wildtrak 4x4 3.0L has a kerb weight of 2488kg, within spitting distance of the F-150.
posted by xdvesper at 5:34 PM on July 3
It was odd that D4A didn't mention Lotus, who have remained true to their roots in building small lightweight sports cars powered by non-exotic engines. Turns out that when you can make a car weigh around 100kg, then a fairly basic Toyota engine* will make it go like shit off a shovel, and return impressive reliability and fuel economy.
Of course, Lotus are a niche sports car manufacturer and are hardly making for the mass market.
If I could buy a new manual transmission, 4 door sedan around the size of a Ford Focus that had no infotainment, basic interior, wind down windows and decent suspension and brakes I'd be on it in an instant. And yes, crossover vehicles completely mystify me as well.
* yes I know that Lotus are supercharging them, but these remain small, light, affordable mass market inline 4 and V6 engines at their heart.
posted by tim_in_oz at 6:52 PM on July 3 [2 favorites]
Of course, Lotus are a niche sports car manufacturer and are hardly making for the mass market.
If I could buy a new manual transmission, 4 door sedan around the size of a Ford Focus that had no infotainment, basic interior, wind down windows and decent suspension and brakes I'd be on it in an instant. And yes, crossover vehicles completely mystify me as well.
* yes I know that Lotus are supercharging them, but these remain small, light, affordable mass market inline 4 and V6 engines at their heart.
posted by tim_in_oz at 6:52 PM on July 3 [2 favorites]
The Model Y being number 1 is an anomaly caused largely by Tesla not splitting its sales amongst many models or nameplates
Selling a bunch of nameplates with extremely marginal sales is basically just marketing (and keeping a bunch of engineers and designers employed I guess) taken to it's logical endpoint (almost) and a function of the extreme profits and tax advantages of research and design work. It'll be a good thing in the future if SUV versions are paired down like Tesla does.
And by marginal sales, plenty of major manufacturers sell cars that sell less than 1000 units a year.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:33 PM on July 3
Selling a bunch of nameplates with extremely marginal sales is basically just marketing (and keeping a bunch of engineers and designers employed I guess) taken to it's logical endpoint (almost) and a function of the extreme profits and tax advantages of research and design work. It'll be a good thing in the future if SUV versions are paired down like Tesla does.
And by marginal sales, plenty of major manufacturers sell cars that sell less than 1000 units a year.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:33 PM on July 3
Also it's incorrect that you can't charge less for less. There are tons of products whose profit margins are built on 'simple' and cheap. McDonalds, Taco Bell are easy examples.
The reason there are no cheap cars is because cars are a class indicator - people (even poor people) don't care if they cost more as long as they get more, because your car is right there in your company parking lot, at the club, etc -where you are - shouting in shorthand about who you are.
You have to change that, mostly by bumping up driving alternatives (or by making everyone extremely poor I guess) before cars are going to change. People will lose their home before they lose their car. Believe it or not, homes are not class indicators nearly as much as cars are. Food most certainly is not. Rich and poor people eat Taco Bell.
And there are cheap cars in the US, it's not correct to say there are absolutely none. But they don't sell well in the US. They do great in Mexico.
Manfacturers do refuse to sell a nice car that is small in the west. There probably is a market for 'city cars', but even the largest US metro NYC advantages driving, so the market for them is very small.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:53 PM on July 3
The reason there are no cheap cars is because cars are a class indicator - people (even poor people) don't care if they cost more as long as they get more, because your car is right there in your company parking lot, at the club, etc -where you are - shouting in shorthand about who you are.
You have to change that, mostly by bumping up driving alternatives (or by making everyone extremely poor I guess) before cars are going to change. People will lose their home before they lose their car. Believe it or not, homes are not class indicators nearly as much as cars are. Food most certainly is not. Rich and poor people eat Taco Bell.
And there are cheap cars in the US, it's not correct to say there are absolutely none. But they don't sell well in the US. They do great in Mexico.
Manfacturers do refuse to sell a nice car that is small in the west. There probably is a market for 'city cars', but even the largest US metro NYC advantages driving, so the market for them is very small.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:53 PM on July 3
It was odd that D4A didn't mention Lotus, who have remained true to their roots in building small lightweight sports cars powered by non-exotic engines.
Lotus? Who make the Eletre SUV? And the 4000lb Evija? The 3000lb Emira? And the 5600lb Emeya?
They don't make anything like the Elise anymore.
posted by Dysk at 10:22 PM on July 3
Lotus? Who make the Eletre SUV? And the 4000lb Evija? The 3000lb Emira? And the 5600lb Emeya?
They don't make anything like the Elise anymore.
posted by Dysk at 10:22 PM on July 3
People will lose their home before they lose their car. Believe it or not, homes are not class indicators nearly as much as cars are.
This really depends on where in the world you are, and to a lesser extent, who you are. You're not going to see many people with crappy apartments and lovely cars in Scandinavia, but you'll see that a lot in Hong Kong, for example. It's far from universally true, and depends on no small part on how much socialising norms in a given culture are built on visiting each other at home vs going out.
posted by Dysk at 10:25 PM on July 3 [2 favorites]
This really depends on where in the world you are, and to a lesser extent, who you are. You're not going to see many people with crappy apartments and lovely cars in Scandinavia, but you'll see that a lot in Hong Kong, for example. It's far from universally true, and depends on no small part on how much socialising norms in a given culture are built on visiting each other at home vs going out.
posted by Dysk at 10:25 PM on July 3 [2 favorites]
If the Jesko weight 1390 kg, but invovles that massive engine, then why should a simpler sedan weight 700 kg like he says?
Caterham Seven weights 440 kg, but it's a sports car. Citroen Ami weights only 483 kg, but it's an EV with batteries adding considerable weight. At least some fully covered recumbent bikes weigh only 25 kg. Why not a 200 kg sedan?
posted by jeffburdges at 3:28 PM on July 5
Caterham Seven weights 440 kg, but it's a sports car. Citroen Ami weights only 483 kg, but it's an EV with batteries adding considerable weight. At least some fully covered recumbent bikes weigh only 25 kg. Why not a 200 kg sedan?
posted by jeffburdges at 3:28 PM on July 5
The Jesko can probably only get away with weighing so little because it is super low volume production, and thus not subject to the same crash safety tests as most other cars. Never mind that a lot of the weight saving comes directly from being so expensive - carbon fibre is both expensive as a material, and much more time- and labour-intensive in manufacture compared to steel, but it's much lighter.
The forces involved in a car are also much greater than on a recumbent. Seating two (or four, or five) rather than one, more drive power, more torque put into drivelines than on a pushbike, more cornering forces in more directions (since it doesn't lean) etc, etc. And that's before even getting close to crash safety.
The Seven, as a grandfathered kit car, does not need to worry about a lot of the above (except the force sizes, your can't get a pass from physics) and it's still more than double 200kg. It's not feasible in a commerical product. You might be able to do it if you built a Jesko-esque exotic mini city car, but the price tag and production volume would also be more similar to the Jesko than to an Ami.
posted by Dysk at 12:59 AM on July 6
The forces involved in a car are also much greater than on a recumbent. Seating two (or four, or five) rather than one, more drive power, more torque put into drivelines than on a pushbike, more cornering forces in more directions (since it doesn't lean) etc, etc. And that's before even getting close to crash safety.
The Seven, as a grandfathered kit car, does not need to worry about a lot of the above (except the force sizes, your can't get a pass from physics) and it's still more than double 200kg. It's not feasible in a commerical product. You might be able to do it if you built a Jesko-esque exotic mini city car, but the price tag and production volume would also be more similar to the Jesko than to an Ami.
posted by Dysk at 12:59 AM on July 6
Yeah i understand, but the safety standards derive largely from the speeds & weight of other road users. If bicycles were invented today, or motorcycles, would they be permitted on roads?
In theory, any government could levy arbitrarily high taxes upon vehicle weight & maximum speed, perhaps with an option to install a speed governer for older vehicles. You've far less safety concerns if you say drop heavy vehicles speed to 25 kph (15 mph). It's really our collective choices.
I picked 25 kph there semi-arbitrarily here because its the legal limit for ebikes that do not require a drivers lisence in Europe, but that's what the whole EU agreed upon. In France, pots de yaourt have a maximum weight 200 kg and a maximum speed of 45 kph (28 mph), but can be drive without a drivers lisence, or even with a drivers lisence suspended for offensese like drunk driving.
If now 200 kg and 45 kph were the legal limit before massive tax hits, then I'd think people could make sedans that obey the pots de yaourt specs, albeit yes maybe using more expensive materials, and yes maybe to lower safety standards. There are nations who'd just accept more casualties for the improved transportation though.
I follow Cycling Mikey on Twitter, absolutely hilarious.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:17 AM on July 6
In theory, any government could levy arbitrarily high taxes upon vehicle weight & maximum speed, perhaps with an option to install a speed governer for older vehicles. You've far less safety concerns if you say drop heavy vehicles speed to 25 kph (15 mph). It's really our collective choices.
I picked 25 kph there semi-arbitrarily here because its the legal limit for ebikes that do not require a drivers lisence in Europe, but that's what the whole EU agreed upon. In France, pots de yaourt have a maximum weight 200 kg and a maximum speed of 45 kph (28 mph), but can be drive without a drivers lisence, or even with a drivers lisence suspended for offensese like drunk driving.
If now 200 kg and 45 kph were the legal limit before massive tax hits, then I'd think people could make sedans that obey the pots de yaourt specs, albeit yes maybe using more expensive materials, and yes maybe to lower safety standards. There are nations who'd just accept more casualties for the improved transportation though.
I follow Cycling Mikey on Twitter, absolutely hilarious.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:17 AM on July 6
Sure, if we're talking taking the speeds down to ~20% of what they are now, the picture changes dramatically.
posted by Dysk at 8:41 AM on July 6
posted by Dysk at 8:41 AM on July 6
As I mentioned Cycling Mikey, today he mentioend that average cyclists lives two yrars longer in the UK, but someone else claimed cyclists have like 10 year more qualify of life. I've no found exactly that study, but.. Want to live longer? Ride a bicycle
42 Reasons To Ride A Bicycle In 2019
posted by jeffburdges at 12:08 PM on July 6 [1 favorite]
42 Reasons To Ride A Bicycle In 2019
posted by jeffburdges at 12:08 PM on July 6 [1 favorite]
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