Neil Gaiman Accused of Sexual Abuse
July 6, 2024 8:33 AM Subscribe
Neil Gaiman Accused of Sexual Abuse
The story is developed at much more length in a 4-part podcast. The Tortoise would prefer you listen to it via their app, but it seems downloadable on any podcatcher under the name "Slow News" or "The Slow Newscast."
In the previous attempt at a post, there was some concern over the character of The Tortoise and it's reporting. At this point, they seem to be the only venue with access to the two accusers, so other reporting is largely reprinted from the original article.
Examples:
Rolling Stone
Comic Book Resources
NZ Herald
The story is developed at much more length in a 4-part podcast. The Tortoise would prefer you listen to it via their app, but it seems downloadable on any podcatcher under the name "Slow News" or "The Slow Newscast."
In the previous attempt at a post, there was some concern over the character of The Tortoise and it's reporting. At this point, they seem to be the only venue with access to the two accusers, so other reporting is largely reprinted from the original article.
Examples:
Rolling Stone
Comic Book Resources
NZ Herald
I am going to reserve judgement at this time. The author, Rachel Johnson, has also written pieces such as "When it comes to trans issues, JK Rowling is the heir to George Orwell".
Given that this came out a day before elections, and shortly after Gaiman came out in support of David Tennent...I'll need a little more to go on before forming an opinion.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 8:43 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
Given that this came out a day before elections, and shortly after Gaiman came out in support of David Tennent...I'll need a little more to go on before forming an opinion.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 8:43 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
r/goodomens seems to have a lot of people skeptical of the accusations, but r/neilgaiman has more folks saying they’ve heard enough rumblings for a long enough time that this wasn’t a surprise
posted by rikschell at 8:46 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:46 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
Say it ain't so.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:48 AM on July 6 [5 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:48 AM on July 6 [5 favorites]
His admission of what went on with the nanny, considering the age difference, considering he was her employer, is particularly troubling.
posted by mittens at 8:51 AM on July 6 [12 favorites]
posted by mittens at 8:51 AM on July 6 [12 favorites]
(What did David Tennent need support for?)
posted by eviemath at 8:51 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 8:51 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
I'm inclined to hear out claims from powerless people against those with status -- even against Neil, who's written a lot of stuff that I like and have liked for a long time.
Is there any story-behind-the-story why this isn't getting more traction? It can't only be this exclusive access to the accusers at this podcast.
posted by k3ninho at 8:52 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
Is there any story-behind-the-story why this isn't getting more traction? It can't only be this exclusive access to the accusers at this podcast.
posted by k3ninho at 8:52 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
I've heard a number of publishing people say he's a missing stair, but nobody who has said so publicly that I could link.
The version he has admitted to, in which he (60 or 61) seduces his child's nanny (21) on her first day of work, while not illegal does seem pretty sus. She evidently made a police complaint in 2022. The other accuser he met in his 40's when she was 18, and they got involved when she was 20.
I would love for it to be false but will be pretty surprised, honestly, given how these things usually go.
posted by joannemerriam at 8:53 AM on July 6 [14 favorites]
The version he has admitted to, in which he (60 or 61) seduces his child's nanny (21) on her first day of work, while not illegal does seem pretty sus. She evidently made a police complaint in 2022. The other accuser he met in his 40's when she was 18, and they got involved when she was 20.
I would love for it to be false but will be pretty surprised, honestly, given how these things usually go.
posted by joannemerriam at 8:53 AM on July 6 [14 favorites]
(The Tennent bit was actor David Tennent criticising the -- now former -- culture minister for trans-exclusionary/trans-erasure stance, causing Sunak to respond on Twitter:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz77exew09lo )
posted by k3ninho at 8:57 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz77exew09lo )
posted by k3ninho at 8:57 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
Huh. I had wondered a bit at the time what had gone on out of the public eye that led to the dissolution of his marriage with Amanda Palmer. As I recall, he wrote a self-deprecating but vague on any details social media post announcement, but some of Palmer’s posts I’ve seen about parenting or remembering her time in New Zealand seems to imply something serious that she had some ongoing anger toward him about (nothing she said directly, just kind of the sense I got from tone and from what was omitted).
posted by eviemath at 9:00 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 9:00 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
Huh. I had to look up the references above. I guess David Tennant came out in favor of trans rights. Then this is the anti-trans screed mentioned above that Rachel Johnson wrote, just for reference (because I had no idea who this writer was, and I'm guessing others might not as well).
Both things could be true: One of the podcast authors, Johnson, appears to be embedded with the anti-trans perspective. I've also heard someone in the know allege that Gaiman's behavior with fans seemed womanizing at best and they'd avoided him because of that.
posted by limeonaire at 9:01 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
Both things could be true: One of the podcast authors, Johnson, appears to be embedded with the anti-trans perspective. I've also heard someone in the know allege that Gaiman's behavior with fans seemed womanizing at best and they'd avoided him because of that.
posted by limeonaire at 9:01 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
Here's the Tumblr take on this:
Okay, be for fucking real for a second. If we take Neil Gaiman's version of events at face value, he initiated a sexual relationship with his 6-year-old child's 21-year-old nanny within hours of meeting her, as a 61-year-old man who is also rich, famous, and influential.
He lived her lifetime two times over before she was even born. He was her employer. She was dependent on him and his wife for her housing. And he pursued a relationship with her despite all of those facts. And that's someone you think is a good person being unfairly accused of abusing his power?
If we go by Neil's account of the situation, the power dynamics are still so utterly skewed, and the situation is still so utterly creepy that I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that the relationship was "consensual." Powerful old men should not be sleeping with their young employees.
Quite frankly, any man who would engage in such a relationship and consider it consensual has too warped an understanding of consent to be trusted in his assessment of whether there was consent.
A man who isn't predatory and abusive would never have sought out this "relationship" to begin with. Much less coerced the girl in question into signing an NDA after the fact in exchange for paying her rent while she was struggling and even hospitalized with suicidal urges in the aftermath of their "relationship."
Neil's behaviour with Scarlett, even if we take his account as the truth, was utterly unacceptable. A 61-year-old man with enormous influence and resources should not be seeking reassurance and support about HIS mental health from a 21-year-old who was IN THE HOSPITAL ON SUICIDE WATCH.
Listening to his audio messages tells you everything you need to know: that he was manipulative, inappropriate, and careful. He guilts her into reassuring him repeatedly that she consented, that he did nothing wrong. He presents himself as suicidal because of the idea that she is "planning to 'MeToo' him." He makes her care for HIM and reassure HIM as if he is the vulnerable party. His messages to her show a man preoccupied with self-image. They show a man with awful boundaries. They show a predator who is very invested in his (self-)image as a "good guy."
Be for fucking real. What's more likely: that a famous and powerful man abused his power and crossed boundaries with young, vulnerable women, who he ADMITS TO ENGAGING IN SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH, or that these two women on separate continents with 20 years separating their experiences are engaged in a conspiracy to smear the name of a man with whom they had loving, consensual relationships? What's more likely? That a powerful man crafted a wholesome public persona while behaving reprehensibly behind closed doors, or that journalists conspired against him to destroy his image because he happens to support trans rights? BE FOR FUCKING REAL.
posted by Lanark at 9:02 AM on July 6 [47 favorites]
Okay, be for fucking real for a second. If we take Neil Gaiman's version of events at face value, he initiated a sexual relationship with his 6-year-old child's 21-year-old nanny within hours of meeting her, as a 61-year-old man who is also rich, famous, and influential.
He lived her lifetime two times over before she was even born. He was her employer. She was dependent on him and his wife for her housing. And he pursued a relationship with her despite all of those facts. And that's someone you think is a good person being unfairly accused of abusing his power?
If we go by Neil's account of the situation, the power dynamics are still so utterly skewed, and the situation is still so utterly creepy that I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that the relationship was "consensual." Powerful old men should not be sleeping with their young employees.
Quite frankly, any man who would engage in such a relationship and consider it consensual has too warped an understanding of consent to be trusted in his assessment of whether there was consent.
A man who isn't predatory and abusive would never have sought out this "relationship" to begin with. Much less coerced the girl in question into signing an NDA after the fact in exchange for paying her rent while she was struggling and even hospitalized with suicidal urges in the aftermath of their "relationship."
Neil's behaviour with Scarlett, even if we take his account as the truth, was utterly unacceptable. A 61-year-old man with enormous influence and resources should not be seeking reassurance and support about HIS mental health from a 21-year-old who was IN THE HOSPITAL ON SUICIDE WATCH.
Listening to his audio messages tells you everything you need to know: that he was manipulative, inappropriate, and careful. He guilts her into reassuring him repeatedly that she consented, that he did nothing wrong. He presents himself as suicidal because of the idea that she is "planning to 'MeToo' him." He makes her care for HIM and reassure HIM as if he is the vulnerable party. His messages to her show a man preoccupied with self-image. They show a man with awful boundaries. They show a predator who is very invested in his (self-)image as a "good guy."
Be for fucking real. What's more likely: that a famous and powerful man abused his power and crossed boundaries with young, vulnerable women, who he ADMITS TO ENGAGING IN SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH, or that these two women on separate continents with 20 years separating their experiences are engaged in a conspiracy to smear the name of a man with whom they had loving, consensual relationships? What's more likely? That a powerful man crafted a wholesome public persona while behaving reprehensibly behind closed doors, or that journalists conspired against him to destroy his image because he happens to support trans rights? BE FOR FUCKING REAL.
posted by Lanark at 9:02 AM on July 6 [47 favorites]
I read the AV Club piece earlier in the week and it saddens me because even if the accusers are misguided or misremembering or exaggerating or out right lying, the quotes from Gaiman himself are fairly gross. Someone mentioned the weirdness of starting a sexual relationship with his much younger just hired nanny, but also in that story is a quote from him citing inaction by the police as evidence he's done nothing wrong which is laughable since authorities often don't have enough to go on to make a criminal case even when things are cut and dried, not to mention that many behaviors and actions that are not legally actionable are still immoral. Also within that story is him bringing up the mental health status of his accuser. Even if true and relevant to the conflict it is just not his place to bring up. That's just gross.
So I'm basically of the position that it's not actually necessary to adjudicate the factual details to notice that his own admissions and statements in response do not speak well of him.
posted by R343L at 9:03 AM on July 6 [9 favorites]
So I'm basically of the position that it's not actually necessary to adjudicate the factual details to notice that his own admissions and statements in response do not speak well of him.
posted by R343L at 9:03 AM on July 6 [9 favorites]
His relationships with both women are definitely gross and power-imbalanced -- which doesn't make them illegal, but it is very distasteful.
There's a thread on r/podcasts about Tortoise Media, debating how much their TERF-iness (or at least this particular author's TERF-iness) may influence their report. General consensus seems to be that the site has some shitty authors, but that doesn't mean they aren't correct about Gaiman.
I haven't listened to the podcasts, but comments from some people who have suggest that 1) the women seem absolutely sincere in their claims; 2) the women seemed to not have made any outward expression to Gaiman that the acts were non-consensual; 3) the podcast host asks some leading questions to at least one of the women; and 4) at the very least, Gaiman was probably coercing these women via the economic/status imbalance, and has been rumored for a while to be gross with female fans.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:03 AM on July 6 [4 favorites]
There's a thread on r/podcasts about Tortoise Media, debating how much their TERF-iness (or at least this particular author's TERF-iness) may influence their report. General consensus seems to be that the site has some shitty authors, but that doesn't mean they aren't correct about Gaiman.
I haven't listened to the podcasts, but comments from some people who have suggest that 1) the women seem absolutely sincere in their claims; 2) the women seemed to not have made any outward expression to Gaiman that the acts were non-consensual; 3) the podcast host asks some leading questions to at least one of the women; and 4) at the very least, Gaiman was probably coercing these women via the economic/status imbalance, and has been rumored for a while to be gross with female fans.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:03 AM on July 6 [4 favorites]
David Tennant has been out in favor of trans rights for ages. Hence the award acceptance speech where he gave the remarks that kicked off the furor.
I kinda don’t want to give clicks to the main story in ‘if I don’t read it maybe it won’t be true’ but I will admit that it’s more *disappointing* than *surprising*.
posted by janell at 9:05 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
I kinda don’t want to give clicks to the main story in ‘if I don’t read it maybe it won’t be true’ but I will admit that it’s more *disappointing* than *surprising*.
posted by janell at 9:05 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
I am perfectly content to cancel him just based on the things he admits happened.
If he forced or coerced those sexual encounters, then he should also be imprisoned.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:06 AM on July 6 [9 favorites]
If he forced or coerced those sexual encounters, then he should also be imprisoned.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:06 AM on July 6 [9 favorites]
Incidentally, the author Rachel Johnson is Boris Johnson's sister. She was a Conservative but joined the Lib Dems because of her opposition to Brexit. She seems like probably not a great person who is breaking an ugly story about someone else doing really, really bad things.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:09 AM on July 6 [4 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:09 AM on July 6 [4 favorites]
Separately: What's so frustrating is that in looking over a friend's sci-fi/fantasy bookshelf recently, and giving each other TV and webcomic recs, there had to be so many caveats. Like yeah, I love that author's work, but he was a complete jerk to me at a workshop and has some pretty problematic views. I love that author's work, but now there are allegations. I love that author's work, but his libertarian techno-utopianism hasn't aged well. I love that show, but its one Jewish character is an antisemitic caricature. I love that show, but they allegedly stole the idea and never credited the originator. I love that show and enjoy the genre, even though I know procedurals reinforce stereotypes and promote the prison-industrial complex.
Maybe we were just virtue-signaling to each other, but there are so many caveats and asterisks.
posted by limeonaire at 9:16 AM on July 6 [11 favorites]
Maybe we were just virtue-signaling to each other, but there are so many caveats and asterisks.
posted by limeonaire at 9:16 AM on July 6 [11 favorites]
And the moral of the story is do not place anyone up on a pedestal for something they have done that you really like, may have changed your life, gave you new insights, etc because beyond that something may lie other actions, opinions, etc that may be rightfully condemned, and guilt by association may bleed upon you because you once thought so highly of this fatally flawed individual.
posted by njohnson23 at 9:26 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 9:26 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
As a trans person who long got iffy vibes from Gaiman, this seems depressingly like one of those occasions when both things could be true at the same time. I'm grateful to this thread for giving me a lot of context about the author that I didn't know when I read the Tortoise article earlier this week, and I'm also compelled by arguments along the lines of Lanark's.
posted by terretu at 9:28 AM on July 6 [6 favorites]
posted by terretu at 9:28 AM on July 6 [6 favorites]
What's more likely? That a powerful man crafted a wholesome public persona while behaving reprehensibly behind closed doors, or that journalists conspired against him to destroy his image because he happens to support trans rights?
It's the 2020's. Both are likely.
Frankly, Neil has pretty much admitted it/been busted via his own recordings. That's enough. That's disgusting and disappointing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:43 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
It's the 2020's. Both are likely.
Frankly, Neil has pretty much admitted it/been busted via his own recordings. That's enough. That's disgusting and disappointing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:43 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
I’ve never been into Gaiman’s work for whatever reason. My main knowledge of him is tangential. And from that one Tori song when she sings/laments “where’s Neil when you need him?”
He is … creepy AF at a bare minimum from what he has admitted to.
The source is probably taking joy inflicting harm on someone they see as a vague “other” but there is enough here that that doesn’t seem to matter.
There does need to be independent reporting, though. If no media outlet can verify these claims independently, that gets weirder as time goes on.
But Neil is done, just from what he admitted already.
posted by teece303 at 9:53 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
He is … creepy AF at a bare minimum from what he has admitted to.
The source is probably taking joy inflicting harm on someone they see as a vague “other” but there is enough here that that doesn’t seem to matter.
There does need to be independent reporting, though. If no media outlet can verify these claims independently, that gets weirder as time goes on.
But Neil is done, just from what he admitted already.
posted by teece303 at 9:53 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
Is there any one who gets power and wealth and stays pure at heart? Just once I'd like a prolific and powerful dude I enjoy not turn out ot be a shit. (Odds are of course that plenty of people are lovely and non-abusive, but we don't hear about them for that reason)
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:57 AM on July 6 [4 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:57 AM on July 6 [4 favorites]
Is there any story-behind-the-story why this isn't getting more traction?
I assume it's because it's a story with a single, suspect, source. It's juicy though, so I expect some other organizations will follow it up with their own investigations.
But like a lot of people, what Gaiman has directly admitted to lowers my respect for him considerably.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:58 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
I assume it's because it's a story with a single, suspect, source. It's juicy though, so I expect some other organizations will follow it up with their own investigations.
But like a lot of people, what Gaiman has directly admitted to lowers my respect for him considerably.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:58 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
Is there any one who gets power and wealth and stays pure at heart?
David Tennant. He's always been an LGBTQ+ ally, and he's gotten way more vocal about it recently (spurred on in part, no doubt, because one of his kids is nonbinary). I've literally never heard anyone say anything about him being a jerk in any interaction, and I can add that my own interaction with him (30 seconds outside a stage door) was lovely and he was gracious to everyone.
There's a lot of people at fault here - but I'm casting sideeye on the journalists; although not for the reason you think:
* It sounds like Neil definitely did something REALLY misguided. I'm disappointed about that. Illegal, unfortunately not - immoral and skeevy, though, yes.
* It also sounds like the accusers may have had some complicated mixed emotions about the situation. Like, I get the sense that at the time, they may have believed they were down with this, but in retrospect realized that "hang on, maybe this wasn't so cool."
* But as for the journalists - it sounds like they just pounced on the accusers just as they were starting to think "wait a second" and were all "you know, what will make you feel better is going public on my show!" It feels like the journalists were also kinda manipulative in getting the accusers to go public, and that's also pretty damn skeevy.
(IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not saying that every accuser who comes forward is being manipulated by the media. I am just noticing a very big difference between accusers who approach the media themselves after having filed a police report and gotten no traction, or who are coming to the media several years after the fact, and this instance, in which it feels like this is recent "i've just realized this actually" memory being swooped on by some TERF-y journalists wanting to take down a trans ally.)
Neil did something SERIOUSLY shitty to his accusers. I think the people at The Tortoise also did something shitty to Neil's accusers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on July 6 [6 favorites]
David Tennant. He's always been an LGBTQ+ ally, and he's gotten way more vocal about it recently (spurred on in part, no doubt, because one of his kids is nonbinary). I've literally never heard anyone say anything about him being a jerk in any interaction, and I can add that my own interaction with him (30 seconds outside a stage door) was lovely and he was gracious to everyone.
There's a lot of people at fault here - but I'm casting sideeye on the journalists; although not for the reason you think:
* It sounds like Neil definitely did something REALLY misguided. I'm disappointed about that. Illegal, unfortunately not - immoral and skeevy, though, yes.
* It also sounds like the accusers may have had some complicated mixed emotions about the situation. Like, I get the sense that at the time, they may have believed they were down with this, but in retrospect realized that "hang on, maybe this wasn't so cool."
* But as for the journalists - it sounds like they just pounced on the accusers just as they were starting to think "wait a second" and were all "you know, what will make you feel better is going public on my show!" It feels like the journalists were also kinda manipulative in getting the accusers to go public, and that's also pretty damn skeevy.
(IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not saying that every accuser who comes forward is being manipulated by the media. I am just noticing a very big difference between accusers who approach the media themselves after having filed a police report and gotten no traction, or who are coming to the media several years after the fact, and this instance, in which it feels like this is recent "i've just realized this actually" memory being swooped on by some TERF-y journalists wanting to take down a trans ally.)
Neil did something SERIOUSLY shitty to his accusers. I think the people at The Tortoise also did something shitty to Neil's accusers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on July 6 [6 favorites]
Is there any one who gets power and wealth and stays pure at heart?
Many, many people. They are, however, never in the news and virtually never have movies made about them. The impression that power and wealth automatically corrupt is purely selection bias.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:19 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
Many, many people. They are, however, never in the news and virtually never have movies made about them. The impression that power and wealth automatically corrupt is purely selection bias.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:19 AM on July 6 [2 favorites]
>(What did David Tennent need support for?)
Only thing I've seen recently was that Tennant posted a pride photo, and J.K. Rowling said he was part of the "gender Taliban" or some such asinine thing.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 10:24 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
Only thing I've seen recently was that Tennant posted a pride photo, and J.K. Rowling said he was part of the "gender Taliban" or some such asinine thing.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 10:24 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
Is there any one who gets power and wealth and stays pure at heart?
That's a really good question.
The best-known answer: Mister Rogers.
As Tell Me No Lies says, there are many, many people. Take a look at the recent post about Mark Melton and all the people he works with to fight (successfully!) for people who are being wrongly evicted.
It's a really good question, because we all need reminders that, however many terrible acts we learn about, there are people all over the world - all over the country, all over your community - who get up every day and do something that helps others, something that makes the world a better place.
(Personally, I ask myself who continues to do good things, who continues to put lovingkindness into the world; asking for people who are actually pure at heart may be an impossibly high standard.)
Thank you for asking that question, drewbage1847. We should all talk more about the people who are lovely.
posted by kristi at 10:44 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
That's a really good question.
The best-known answer: Mister Rogers.
As Tell Me No Lies says, there are many, many people. Take a look at the recent post about Mark Melton and all the people he works with to fight (successfully!) for people who are being wrongly evicted.
It's a really good question, because we all need reminders that, however many terrible acts we learn about, there are people all over the world - all over the country, all over your community - who get up every day and do something that helps others, something that makes the world a better place.
(Personally, I ask myself who continues to do good things, who continues to put lovingkindness into the world; asking for people who are actually pure at heart may be an impossibly high standard.)
Thank you for asking that question, drewbage1847. We should all talk more about the people who are lovely.
posted by kristi at 10:44 AM on July 6 [3 favorites]
A 60-year-old man putting the moves on a vulnerable 20-year-old who relies on him for her income seems cut and dried to me.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:44 AM on July 6 [7 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:44 AM on July 6 [7 favorites]
Ugh. Sometimes you wonder if it's generational, because the sensitive artsy creeper who everyone loves is a real late Boomer/Gen X archetype. They got a lot of tolerance in my generation because it was so unusual not to be an eighties/nineties macho asshole and then they used it to be creepy abusers.
posted by Frowner at 10:48 AM on July 6 [5 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:48 AM on July 6 [5 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos: you summed up my thoughts on this after reading the article and thinking on it for a while.
Not important, but while I think Gaiman has been highly influential and a powerful figure in literature, pop culture and storytelling... none of what I have read of his has ever clicked with me. I've tried reading three or four of his novels and dropped every one of them.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:54 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
Not important, but while I think Gaiman has been highly influential and a powerful figure in literature, pop culture and storytelling... none of what I have read of his has ever clicked with me. I've tried reading three or four of his novels and dropped every one of them.
posted by SoberHighland at 10:54 AM on July 6 [1 favorite]
What's more likely? That a powerful man crafted a wholesome public persona while behaving reprehensibly behind closed doors, or that journalists conspired against him to destroy his image because he happens to support trans rights?
It's the 2020's. Both are likely.
Yeah, this tracks.
Neil did something SERIOUSLY shitty to his accusers. I think the people at The Tortoise also did something shitty to Neil's accusers.
This also sounds plausible to me. Neil is at the very least -- by his own admission! -- an extremely unethical, predatory partner deliberately pursuing much younger women *who he employed and has financial power over*. He is very plausibly also a rapist in the specific ways the women reported in the articles.
With the extremely skewed power dynamics, it feels like sexual assault either way to me. He admits to getting in the bathtub naked to engage in physical/sexual activity with someone one third of his age who he'd hired as an employee in his home, and just met an hour ago. How can you possibly be sure, as the more powerful person, that your vulnerable younger employee is actually, truly consenting?
At the same time, it seems entirely possible that these particular journalists are also taking advantage of the women Gaiman abused, using the survivors' stories for their own political purposes rather than respecting the survivors' autonomy and and elevating their voices and stories on their own terms -- which, like sexual assault, is another reprehensible way of treating a person as an object rather than a subject.
On another occasion, Scarlett alleged that the sex between them “was so painful and so violent” that she lost consciousness.
During that time, she sent him numerous messages indicating that she consented to the sexual activity.
There is 100% an abuse tactic where the abuser convinces the person they're abusing to send multiple text messages or emails stating that the contact is consensual, so that the abuser can use that written record to publicly discredit the victim if they ever come forward with accusations in the future. Having to repeatedly reassure someone over text message that they are not abusing you is in itself an enormous red flag.
posted by cnidaria at 10:55 AM on July 6 [5 favorites]
It's the 2020's. Both are likely.
Yeah, this tracks.
Neil did something SERIOUSLY shitty to his accusers. I think the people at The Tortoise also did something shitty to Neil's accusers.
This also sounds plausible to me. Neil is at the very least -- by his own admission! -- an extremely unethical, predatory partner deliberately pursuing much younger women *who he employed and has financial power over*. He is very plausibly also a rapist in the specific ways the women reported in the articles.
With the extremely skewed power dynamics, it feels like sexual assault either way to me. He admits to getting in the bathtub naked to engage in physical/sexual activity with someone one third of his age who he'd hired as an employee in his home, and just met an hour ago. How can you possibly be sure, as the more powerful person, that your vulnerable younger employee is actually, truly consenting?
At the same time, it seems entirely possible that these particular journalists are also taking advantage of the women Gaiman abused, using the survivors' stories for their own political purposes rather than respecting the survivors' autonomy and and elevating their voices and stories on their own terms -- which, like sexual assault, is another reprehensible way of treating a person as an object rather than a subject.
On another occasion, Scarlett alleged that the sex between them “was so painful and so violent” that she lost consciousness.
During that time, she sent him numerous messages indicating that she consented to the sexual activity.
There is 100% an abuse tactic where the abuser convinces the person they're abusing to send multiple text messages or emails stating that the contact is consensual, so that the abuser can use that written record to publicly discredit the victim if they ever come forward with accusations in the future. Having to repeatedly reassure someone over text message that they are not abusing you is in itself an enormous red flag.
posted by cnidaria at 10:55 AM on July 6 [5 favorites]
I would personally like us to have a cultural norm where one does not put the make on the much younger nanny and where one doesn't do painful things to people during sex unless that has been specifically negotiated in advance, and I'd like us as a culture to think that these are bad things to do and indicate a bad character, not just laddish things that are getting blown out of proportion.
posted by Frowner at 10:59 AM on July 6 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:59 AM on July 6 [9 favorites]
Our culture just falls back on this whole "men cannot be expected to think carefully about sex or consent, naturally they just forge ahead and unless their partners pull out the rape whistle in the midst of the encounter, no wrong was committed". But I contend that men, like other people, can in fact think, "this is a very pretty girl but she is much younger than me and my employee, so I'll just note that she is pretty and move on" or even, "my partner seems not to be enjoying this encounter, maybe I'll check in or stop". I contend that this could and should be normal, that it's not rocket science, that you can refrain from coercing and hurting people without very much effort.
posted by Frowner at 11:03 AM on July 6 [6 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 11:03 AM on July 6 [6 favorites]
This is disappointing and a little surprising, but only a little. Power and authority are so easy to abuse that it's almost a given that anyone in such a position has done something to abuse that power and authority even if it's not sexual. Regardless, we need to continue to hold the powerful to a higher standard and never make excuses, no matter how well loved they may be.
posted by tommasz at 11:03 AM on July 6
posted by tommasz at 11:03 AM on July 6
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posted by GenjiandProust at 8:35 AM on July 6 [7 favorites]