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July 8, 2024 12:00 AM Subscribe
Have you learnt, or tried to learn, a second (or third or fourth language)? Either fully, partially, or just a few essential phrases? Did you learn by accident, deliberately, for a trip or holiday, or were you forced to learn at school? Do you still use it? Do you intend or want to learn a language? ... Or write about whatever is on your mind, in your heart, on your plate or in your journal, because this is your weekly free thread. [Post inspired by a 1970's song, Wikipedia detail] [Most recently] Also ...
... maybe wander over to "the grey" and consider also dropping an answer in the current MetaTalkTales.
... maybe wander over to "the grey" and consider also dropping an answer in the current MetaTalkTales.
...or were you forced to learn at school?
That line was because we were forced to learn - or at least show up for - French at school (ages 12 and 13). My school report as a 13 year old reads "John has clearly given up on this subject, and wrote obscenities on his examination paper. Examination mark: 0%". (Oddly, I keep having French phrases from those years come to mind so something sank in) The less said about compulsary German, where I managed to somehow achieve a negative mark in the end of year examination, the better.
But here I am, over 40 years later, attempting to learn Swedish.
posted by Wordshore at 12:24 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
That line was because we were forced to learn - or at least show up for - French at school (ages 12 and 13). My school report as a 13 year old reads "John has clearly given up on this subject, and wrote obscenities on his examination paper. Examination mark: 0%". (Oddly, I keep having French phrases from those years come to mind so something sank in) The less said about compulsary German, where I managed to somehow achieve a negative mark in the end of year examination, the better.
But here I am, over 40 years later, attempting to learn Swedish.
posted by Wordshore at 12:24 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
The less said about compulsary German, where I managed to somehow achieve a negative mark in the end of year examination, the better.
My senior-year-of-high-school Spanish teacher gave me a generous "D-", only because she felt an "F" might prevent me from graduating and she felt that wasn't in my best interest (or she'd rather not see me for another year of apathy and no-progress?).
posted by maxwelton at 12:34 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
My senior-year-of-high-school Spanish teacher gave me a generous "D-", only because she felt an "F" might prevent me from graduating and she felt that wasn't in my best interest (or she'd rather not see me for another year of apathy and no-progress?).
posted by maxwelton at 12:34 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I cycled across (some*) of Europe once with no real route in mind and I had a great guide/manual specifically for cyclists, each country section included pronunciation for about 50 core words (niceties, bicycle parts, food & accom.)
*Switzerland, Germany, Belgium (and a day in France. Didn't like it stopped once to make a sandwich and looped back to Belgium) & Lux., England & Scotland). Belgium is my favourite.
I have at times learned some Italian, and German, and tried Russian once.
posted by unearthed at 12:39 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
*Switzerland, Germany, Belgium (and a day in France. Didn't like it stopped once to make a sandwich and looped back to Belgium) & Lux., England & Scotland). Belgium is my favourite.
I have at times learned some Italian, and German, and tried Russian once.
posted by unearthed at 12:39 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I was French/English bilingual to a mother tongue level (fallen out of practice, now just mostly English/Bad English) and in response to this title post I'd like to tell Wordshore - tu as de belles cuisses.
posted by Molesome at 12:44 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
posted by Molesome at 12:44 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I've always hugely admired polygots.
Someone I used to work with was fluent (officlal government translator level) in 3 languages, and was pretty fluent in four others (to a level she could often pass as a local). And then was learning another two more for fun at the time I was working with her.
It was always incredible to see when she made a minor mispronouciation or misphrasing, and I'd let her know (on her request), she'd pause, think about it for a bit, and then never make that same mistake again.
I used to struggle with just English at school,
French became much easier when I finally realised I need to think in French, not think in English and then try to translate before speaking. But I was nearly done with school by then.
I was up to a good converasational level in NZSL when practicing regularly after studying for a few years (such as having a two hour convo with someone I randomly met at a party entirely in sign.).
Recently I was very pleased to start learning my fourth language by getting onto to a 'te reo' course (Māori), in which I'm still at the very basic level so far, but very excited to be learning more.
The aim is to be able to communicste in all three official languages of my home in Aotearoa NZ (both in conversation and with respect to culture).
posted by many-things at 12:44 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
Someone I used to work with was fluent (officlal government translator level) in 3 languages, and was pretty fluent in four others (to a level she could often pass as a local). And then was learning another two more for fun at the time I was working with her.
It was always incredible to see when she made a minor mispronouciation or misphrasing, and I'd let her know (on her request), she'd pause, think about it for a bit, and then never make that same mistake again.
I used to struggle with just English at school,
French became much easier when I finally realised I need to think in French, not think in English and then try to translate before speaking. But I was nearly done with school by then.
I was up to a good converasational level in NZSL when practicing regularly after studying for a few years (such as having a two hour convo with someone I randomly met at a party entirely in sign.).
Recently I was very pleased to start learning my fourth language by getting onto to a 'te reo' course (Māori), in which I'm still at the very basic level so far, but very excited to be learning more.
The aim is to be able to communicste in all three official languages of my home in Aotearoa NZ (both in conversation and with respect to culture).
posted by many-things at 12:44 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
I accidentally moved to a German speaking country a few years ago, and so now, three decades after I was given the lowest grade possible in Spanish (x, and it wasn’t for ¡excelente!) I’ve got a working knowledge of German. One thing that slowed me down was that I’ve been learning to dual-wield my native English and German, unlike my co-learners from other countries who rarely have a chance to speak their mother tongue on a day to day basis. There’s definitely some cross contamination; I’m not quite at the stage where German grammar structure use I do (aka Yoda syndrome), but I can feel my vocabulary reaching for words I don’t often use. Ah well, that’s what dictionaries are for.
posted by The River Ivel at 12:49 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 12:49 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
At my school the language options were limited to French and Welsh (this, naturally, was in Wales). The French teacher was a man who really wasn't cut out for that line of work, meaning I and almost everyone else did badly at it as a result. Welsh wasn't so bad but I elected not to keep it up.
I lived and worked in Italy for two years (in a largely Anglophone workplace) and only by the end of that time had I just about clambered from beginner-level Italian into the lower reaches of intermediate ability. I soon forgot most of it after leaving the country.
Later I lived and worked for much longer in Sweden (nine years, again in an English-speaking office) and am ashamed to say I barely tried to learn any Swedish, gaining only a bare minimum of the language as was needed for supermarket shopping, etc.
posted by misteraitch at 12:54 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
I lived and worked in Italy for two years (in a largely Anglophone workplace) and only by the end of that time had I just about clambered from beginner-level Italian into the lower reaches of intermediate ability. I soon forgot most of it after leaving the country.
Later I lived and worked for much longer in Sweden (nine years, again in an English-speaking office) and am ashamed to say I barely tried to learn any Swedish, gaining only a bare minimum of the language as was needed for supermarket shopping, etc.
posted by misteraitch at 12:54 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
Good morning all!
When I was four, we moved to England, and I learnt English. First we lived in Buckinghamshire in a normal commuter village. But then we moved to Yorkshire, to a tiny village where we were five children: Sarah, Sarah, Simon and me and my brother. There I learnt to switch between the local dialect and RP for school and other stuff involving adults. I could also do Scots. When we visited Denmark, one set of grandparents lived in Vendsyssel, where the dialect is similar to Northern England, so there too I learnt both the dialect and the Danish version of RP.
Then we moved to Germany, but we went to an American school, mostly for the tons of army brats. So a new form of English. I didn't learn one word of German, because the other kids in our building were French, and my French aunt claims I spoke perfect French. I'm not good at French now, but I can read it and manage basic stuff.
Then we moved to Italy, where I learnt some important phrases, like how to order gelato, but it was only for a short while, and we moved back to Denmark. But then my dad moved to Belgium, so I'd go and visit him frequently, and speak more French. I've studied Italian later in life, but I can't say I'm fluent.
But here is the funny part: I really didn't get German. In school, I'd always be drawing in the classes, and the German teacher would take the drawings at the end of each class and I failed all my assignments. But it turned out that her husband was an architect, and she showed him the drawings. And he convinced her to give me a good grade in spite of my ignorance so I could continue to secondary school and eventually go to an art academy and study art and architecture. And at that academy, I met my future (now ex) husband, who was German. And I learnt German!
When I was younger, I thought a lot about how thinking is different in different languages. It definitely is, but I'm not sure how big of a difference it really makes. Or maybe what makes the difference -- the languages or growing up in different cultures? I've noticed that many of my closest friends are also third culture kids, so there is something there.
posted by mumimor at 1:14 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
When I was four, we moved to England, and I learnt English. First we lived in Buckinghamshire in a normal commuter village. But then we moved to Yorkshire, to a tiny village where we were five children: Sarah, Sarah, Simon and me and my brother. There I learnt to switch between the local dialect and RP for school and other stuff involving adults. I could also do Scots. When we visited Denmark, one set of grandparents lived in Vendsyssel, where the dialect is similar to Northern England, so there too I learnt both the dialect and the Danish version of RP.
Then we moved to Germany, but we went to an American school, mostly for the tons of army brats. So a new form of English. I didn't learn one word of German, because the other kids in our building were French, and my French aunt claims I spoke perfect French. I'm not good at French now, but I can read it and manage basic stuff.
Then we moved to Italy, where I learnt some important phrases, like how to order gelato, but it was only for a short while, and we moved back to Denmark. But then my dad moved to Belgium, so I'd go and visit him frequently, and speak more French. I've studied Italian later in life, but I can't say I'm fluent.
But here is the funny part: I really didn't get German. In school, I'd always be drawing in the classes, and the German teacher would take the drawings at the end of each class and I failed all my assignments. But it turned out that her husband was an architect, and she showed him the drawings. And he convinced her to give me a good grade in spite of my ignorance so I could continue to secondary school and eventually go to an art academy and study art and architecture. And at that academy, I met my future (now ex) husband, who was German. And I learnt German!
When I was younger, I thought a lot about how thinking is different in different languages. It definitely is, but I'm not sure how big of a difference it really makes. Or maybe what makes the difference -- the languages or growing up in different cultures? I've noticed that many of my closest friends are also third culture kids, so there is something there.
posted by mumimor at 1:14 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
Sitting at my desk in our ramshackle old house in the centre of a picturesque 17th/18th century Dutch town, a Brit at the height of pre-Brexit anxieties, I read that old boys like me who had been here a long time were eligible for citizenship. Great news! Only one problem, the whole process, including interviews, had to be done in Dutch and my Dutch was an abomination, more likely to cause an international incident than win me a passport and unrestricted access to my home and family.
I can read most anything in anything even if I cannot order a beer. I mugged up on the immigration process, the associated laws and swallowed the lexical caboodle whole. I was nervous before my interviews. The local government official was large and intimidating. But the Dutch flew out out of my mouth, words twittering like happy little birds in full flight.
Mrs. Large Scarey Lady clucked in approval and uttered words that will crown my bald head for evermore..... "your Dutch is outstanding......" Wow!!!! But then came the deadly pause....... " for a Brit."
My crash landing back to reality shook the building before I burst out laughing as did she, "my Dutch is outstanding...for a Brit!"
I have my passport and my Dutch is even more outstanding today than it was yesterday!! Hehe.
posted by dutchrick at 1:21 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
I can read most anything in anything even if I cannot order a beer. I mugged up on the immigration process, the associated laws and swallowed the lexical caboodle whole. I was nervous before my interviews. The local government official was large and intimidating. But the Dutch flew out out of my mouth, words twittering like happy little birds in full flight.
Mrs. Large Scarey Lady clucked in approval and uttered words that will crown my bald head for evermore..... "your Dutch is outstanding......" Wow!!!! But then came the deadly pause....... " for a Brit."
My crash landing back to reality shook the building before I burst out laughing as did she, "my Dutch is outstanding...for a Brit!"
I have my passport and my Dutch is even more outstanding today than it was yesterday!! Hehe.
posted by dutchrick at 1:21 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
In Finland we have to take Mandatory Swedish in grades 6–9 and onwards to high schools, vocational school, onwards to universities. I'm maybe so-so in very basic conversational swedish, maybe a little better at reading it. Also we study english from I think grade four. I have been fluent in english starting sometime around 13–14 years old, for me it was always the easiest class in school and I always pretty much got straight 10's (A's for people elsewhere) all the time. This had to with being very much into popular culture which was (at least all interesting stuff was!) in English. This has lead to people thinking I've lived abroad for years when in reality I've just always been a quick and nerdy kid and about 80% of my online interactions have been in English since 1996 or so. Not to say my English is perfect, I catch myself with errors all the time.
Other languages: tiny bit of spanish (I spent three weeks alone in Spain 15 years ago, got along well with bits of (broken) spanish and english. Always tried to make do without much or at all english, and did ok in the end. Lived in Estonia for three months eight years ago, picked up some of that, by listening to the radio mostly since I was alone for most of the time! Got along nicely with finnish and the little bit of estonian I knew. They sound a bit similar. Estonians (sorry for generalisation!) are one of the nicest people I've ever met and I wish to live there again some day.
Studied French in high school for two courses, couldn't get the hang of it at all. Sounds so different than what is written and also spoken very quickly. Couldn't advance fast enough, had to drop it.
posted by fridgebuzz at 1:38 AM on July 8 [4 favorites]
Other languages: tiny bit of spanish (I spent three weeks alone in Spain 15 years ago, got along well with bits of (broken) spanish and english. Always tried to make do without much or at all english, and did ok in the end. Lived in Estonia for three months eight years ago, picked up some of that, by listening to the radio mostly since I was alone for most of the time! Got along nicely with finnish and the little bit of estonian I knew. They sound a bit similar. Estonians (sorry for generalisation!) are one of the nicest people I've ever met and I wish to live there again some day.
Studied French in high school for two courses, couldn't get the hang of it at all. Sounds so different than what is written and also spoken very quickly. Couldn't advance fast enough, had to drop it.
posted by fridgebuzz at 1:38 AM on July 8 [4 favorites]
1978 is a long time ago, but I was there. Where? Working in Diergaard Blijdorp in Rotterdam. I was hired as an extra hand while we /they set up the World's Greatest Aquarium Exhibition. One of the consequences is that I know loadsa Dutch words related to aquariums, fish, water [dekruit, verversen, koraalduivel, schoonmaken, zeemen] for which I draw a blank entirely in English. Dekruit is the pane of glass laid on top of an aquarium to stop the fish jumping out and crap falling in. There must be a single word in English? For similar reasons I have, or had, a long list of agri-nature terms and phrases in Polish and Spanish.
A few years later, I was scheduled to do field work in Cabo Verde and other parts of the Portuguese Atlantic Empire. I figured that ENGLISH wouldn't cut it and one of us should learn Portuguese as a half way house to the criolo that folks spoke in Cabo Verde. Providentially, the Lisbon government was on a jag spreading Portuguese culture abroad. They were paying the salary of a young cultural ambassador in my provincial English university. She gave me weekly 1to1 lessons for a few months: allowing her to [✓] for head office and me to get fluent enough to read newspapers and write short stories and have halting conversations in Portuguese.
Now when I try to speak to foreigners, out comes a gallimaufry of all these, along with skool French and German: I call it Europeo and it baffles everyone involved including me.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:17 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
A few years later, I was scheduled to do field work in Cabo Verde and other parts of the Portuguese Atlantic Empire. I figured that ENGLISH wouldn't cut it and one of us should learn Portuguese as a half way house to the criolo that folks spoke in Cabo Verde. Providentially, the Lisbon government was on a jag spreading Portuguese culture abroad. They were paying the salary of a young cultural ambassador in my provincial English university. She gave me weekly 1to1 lessons for a few months: allowing her to [✓] for head office and me to get fluent enough to read newspapers and write short stories and have halting conversations in Portuguese.
Now when I try to speak to foreigners, out comes a gallimaufry of all these, along with skool French and German: I call it Europeo and it baffles everyone involved including me.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:17 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
I learnt Esperanto a few years ago. I've mostly lost it now, but really enjoyed that time. I'm still proud of myself for going to a meet-up. I liked reading Alice and Tintin in Esperanto, and finding out about the political history of the movement.
My degree is in old and middle English, but the OE has mostly gone too. I struggled with the grammar, being in the cohort of UK schoolchildren who were taught very little English grammar.
Enjoy puzzling my way through Latin inscriptions like this one.
Am on go slow this morning, partly because my first work action needs to be to ring IT to ask them why they have suspended my account (my colleague rang them on Friday and said she spoke to a "hopelessly downcast young man"). Came out of the shower to find this guarding my clothes, so I don't know how I'm supposed to get dressed now.
posted by paduasoy at 2:40 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
My degree is in old and middle English, but the OE has mostly gone too. I struggled with the grammar, being in the cohort of UK schoolchildren who were taught very little English grammar.
Enjoy puzzling my way through Latin inscriptions like this one.
Am on go slow this morning, partly because my first work action needs to be to ring IT to ask them why they have suspended my account (my colleague rang them on Friday and said she spoke to a "hopelessly downcast young man"). Came out of the shower to find this guarding my clothes, so I don't know how I'm supposed to get dressed now.
posted by paduasoy at 2:40 AM on July 8 [5 favorites]
This. This is what being a teacher looks like. A true teacher.
In school, I'd always be drawing in the classes, and the German teacher would take the drawings at the end of each class and I failed all my assignments. But it turned out that her husband was an architect, and she showed him the drawings. And he convinced her to give me a good grade in spite of my ignorance so I could continue to secondary school and eventually go to an art academy and study art and architecture.
posted by chavenet at 2:56 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
In school, I'd always be drawing in the classes, and the German teacher would take the drawings at the end of each class and I failed all my assignments. But it turned out that her husband was an architect, and she showed him the drawings. And he convinced her to give me a good grade in spite of my ignorance so I could continue to secondary school and eventually go to an art academy and study art and architecture.
posted by chavenet at 2:56 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
I struggled with the grammar, being in the cohort of UK schoolchildren who were taught very little English grammar.
In my first Japanese language class, the old Prof uttered the immortal words, " 'wa' is an elliptical subject particle." While the rest of my much younger fellow students blanched with a ' you what!?' I smiled with relief, "ah terra firma, now that is a great anchor point, more of the same please!"
My generation was perhaps the last that was soused in grammar in both English and Latin to 18. Thanks for the memory paduasoy
posted by dutchrick at 3:20 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
In my first Japanese language class, the old Prof uttered the immortal words, " 'wa' is an elliptical subject particle." While the rest of my much younger fellow students blanched with a ' you what!?' I smiled with relief, "ah terra firma, now that is a great anchor point, more of the same please!"
My generation was perhaps the last that was soused in grammar in both English and Latin to 18. Thanks for the memory paduasoy
posted by dutchrick at 3:20 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
on library days in elementary school, while my classmates browsed through whatever level-appropriate books the librarian had on display for us, i made a beeline towards the picture dictionaries. one week with german, one week with russian, etc. etc. on repeat until i ran out of new languages and started over again.
(sometimes i would shake things up a little and check out a cookbook - which i then insisted we make something out of during the week i had it. i still remember how disappointed i was with the taste of the blini from the russian cookbook, but my parents loved them! so they copied the recipe and we continued to have them on a fairly regular basis. i came around eventually.)
i continued trying to teach myself new languages out of books (japanese, swahili, always something that would be difficult for a native english speaker to pick up, and never anything the adults around me thought would be "useful"). then i started taking german in high school and i finally began to make progress, but i still dreamed of languages beyond what was offered in my school district.
is it any wonder i went into linguistics at university? i kept up with german and started to focus on historical lingustics and took seminars in gothic and anglo saxon. to fill out requirements i added japanese and arabic, reasoning that well, i have to take a non-indo european language, and i've always wanted to try arabic too...
department of defense recruiters came into my arabic class in 2001 to talk up their language institute and gave everyone a little survey that asked what language classes we were in aside from arabic, among other questions i can't remember now. i suppose on paper i looked like a promising candidate, because i got pulled aside for a one-on-one conversation that went something like this:
recruiter: a linguistics major, plus german, japanese, and arabic. are there any other languages you're interested in?
me: oh yeah sure! swahili, dutch, welsh, catalan, maltese...
recruiter (making a face): none of those are useful to us.
i did not go to the defense language institute after graduating, i went to japan instead. now i'm a japanese/english interpreter in kyoto and whenever i try to speak german, japanese comes out of my mouth instead. i can still read german, but i don't get enough speaking practice right now. sadly, my arabic has completely disappeared.
posted by emmling at 3:22 AM on July 8 [6 favorites]
(sometimes i would shake things up a little and check out a cookbook - which i then insisted we make something out of during the week i had it. i still remember how disappointed i was with the taste of the blini from the russian cookbook, but my parents loved them! so they copied the recipe and we continued to have them on a fairly regular basis. i came around eventually.)
i continued trying to teach myself new languages out of books (japanese, swahili, always something that would be difficult for a native english speaker to pick up, and never anything the adults around me thought would be "useful"). then i started taking german in high school and i finally began to make progress, but i still dreamed of languages beyond what was offered in my school district.
is it any wonder i went into linguistics at university? i kept up with german and started to focus on historical lingustics and took seminars in gothic and anglo saxon. to fill out requirements i added japanese and arabic, reasoning that well, i have to take a non-indo european language, and i've always wanted to try arabic too...
department of defense recruiters came into my arabic class in 2001 to talk up their language institute and gave everyone a little survey that asked what language classes we were in aside from arabic, among other questions i can't remember now. i suppose on paper i looked like a promising candidate, because i got pulled aside for a one-on-one conversation that went something like this:
recruiter: a linguistics major, plus german, japanese, and arabic. are there any other languages you're interested in?
me: oh yeah sure! swahili, dutch, welsh, catalan, maltese...
recruiter (making a face): none of those are useful to us.
i did not go to the defense language institute after graduating, i went to japan instead. now i'm a japanese/english interpreter in kyoto and whenever i try to speak german, japanese comes out of my mouth instead. i can still read german, but i don't get enough speaking practice right now. sadly, my arabic has completely disappeared.
posted by emmling at 3:22 AM on July 8 [6 favorites]
We we, bonjourno, como estas. Que? Spaciba. C yo es el idiota par linugua.
posted by sammyo at 3:27 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 3:27 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
...and in response to this title post I'd like to tell Wordshore - tu as de belles cuisses.
Fogadok, hogy ezt mondod az összes MeFitesnek.
posted by Wordshore at 3:36 AM on July 8
Fogadok, hogy ezt mondod az összes MeFitesnek.
posted by Wordshore at 3:36 AM on July 8
And yes I do know "We we" should be spelled Oui oui. Just messing with youse guyse. oh gosh, just try typing Спасибо extemporaneously.
posted by sammyo at 3:55 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 3:55 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
The second language I studied was Russian, and yes, using the amazing Lipson textbook!
That meant learning about how shockworkers lived and loafers misbehaved, singing the concrete song (including the diminitive for concrete-mixer), praising Super-person, and dreading Olga who stole shoes under the table. Not to mention practicing how not to answer a question.
https://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/essays/love-letter-concrete/
(The next year we used a more formal textbook and most of my class failed)
posted by doctornemo at 3:58 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
That meant learning about how shockworkers lived and loafers misbehaved, singing the concrete song (including the diminitive for concrete-mixer), praising Super-person, and dreading Olga who stole shoes under the table. Not to mention practicing how not to answer a question.
https://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/essays/love-letter-concrete/
(The next year we used a more formal textbook and most of my class failed)
posted by doctornemo at 3:58 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
Living here in Europe now I appreciate how many people are fluent in 2 or 3 languages. In many circles, it is even the norm.
In the Netherlands, for example, many immigrants here have their native language, then learn Dutch but you also need English to survive in the business world. That explains the guy near me at the airport the other day: He spoke fluent Spanish (I think he was originally from Spain) on the phone with some client, then he called his partner and relayed the conversation in perfect English. After he was done, he turned to talk Dutch with his small kid who, growing up in NL, was a native Dutch speaker.
This is something that always bothered me a bit in the US and even elsewhere. Everyone makes a big deal of learning more than one language as if its an enormous intellectual task. But many of the Mexican immigrants around you speak at least two (Spanish and English) and possibly three languages - as there are still active Indian languages (Nahuatl, Zapotec, etc). But nobody congratulates them for that.
posted by vacapinta at 4:09 AM on July 8 [6 favorites]
In the Netherlands, for example, many immigrants here have their native language, then learn Dutch but you also need English to survive in the business world. That explains the guy near me at the airport the other day: He spoke fluent Spanish (I think he was originally from Spain) on the phone with some client, then he called his partner and relayed the conversation in perfect English. After he was done, he turned to talk Dutch with his small kid who, growing up in NL, was a native Dutch speaker.
This is something that always bothered me a bit in the US and even elsewhere. Everyone makes a big deal of learning more than one language as if its an enormous intellectual task. But many of the Mexican immigrants around you speak at least two (Spanish and English) and possibly three languages - as there are still active Indian languages (Nahuatl, Zapotec, etc). But nobody congratulates them for that.
posted by vacapinta at 4:09 AM on July 8 [6 favorites]
I learned a little French in 7th grade, and am coming back to it now in retirement. After a couple years of Duolingo, i can say that my reading comprehension is getting pretty good, but my listening and writing still feels poor. The app just doesn't force you to exercise those to the same degree.
Why, French? 7th grade me was very into The Three Musketeers.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:12 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
Why, French? 7th grade me was very into The Three Musketeers.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:12 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
I was forced to learn French and Latin in school, mostly a waste of time, French I've used on occasional visits to France, Latin never. The two languages I wished I had learned (Mandarin and Te Reo), that really would have been useful, were not available. I've got nothing against French but it lives in my head coming out sometimes when I least need it in China rather than what I want to say
posted by mbo at 4:13 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
posted by mbo at 4:13 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I picked up some Spanish in junior high, a couple of yeas of German in high school, and was close to fluent in Russian by the time I graduated from college. I don't really use any of them any more, other than to amuse myself. However, thanks to this mix of languages, I find others like French, Italian, Latin, etc., are easier to roughly parse, at a rudimentary level.
I would really like to learn Chinese (Cantonese) at some point. I just need the time.
posted by JohnFromGR at 4:21 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I would really like to learn Chinese (Cantonese) at some point. I just need the time.
posted by JohnFromGR at 4:21 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I really wish I could pick up languages more easily, but even when I was young they just wouldn't stick.
I took French in middle school, high school, and college (so from about 14 to 20, for those who have no idea what "middle school" is). I never learned to understand spoken French at a normal pace. I used to be able to read in French, which was fun. I really liked Octave Mirbeau. Even that was a matter of translating it into English in my head as I went, though. Now even that capacity is mostly faded, and my post Covid cognitive problems mean it is probably not something I will be able to remaster. C'est la vie.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:26 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I took French in middle school, high school, and college (so from about 14 to 20, for those who have no idea what "middle school" is). I never learned to understand spoken French at a normal pace. I used to be able to read in French, which was fun. I really liked Octave Mirbeau. Even that was a matter of translating it into English in my head as I went, though. Now even that capacity is mostly faded, and my post Covid cognitive problems mean it is probably not something I will be able to remaster. C'est la vie.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:26 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
Well, I picked up a little bit of Verilog this week! I got my prototype FPGA-based card working last night. Actually I’m cheating a little bit, this particular FPGA board I’m using has a toy language sitting in between me and Verilog. Training wheels kind of thing. It does spit out the intermediate Verilog so I can eventually take the training wheels off once I find my feet.
It’s just a janky breadboarded setup right now, but I’m trying to get a PCB design finished and ordered today, hopefully manufactured and received before I head to KansasFest next week, so I have something a little more polished to show off. This version does bus capture only, but eventually I will implement the full two-way bus. If only I had come up with this idea a month sooner!
posted by notoriety public at 4:37 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
It’s just a janky breadboarded setup right now, but I’m trying to get a PCB design finished and ordered today, hopefully manufactured and received before I head to KansasFest next week, so I have something a little more polished to show off. This version does bus capture only, but eventually I will implement the full two-way bus. If only I had come up with this idea a month sooner!
posted by notoriety public at 4:37 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
I had French Immersion from kindergarten in Montreal, and moved to France for a year when I was six, and I've kept up with it sporadically since then (in high school I took up to AP French Literature, when they still had an AP French Literature). I am competent enough to start conversations in French when I'm in Montreal but my accent is bad enough that people mostly switch to English without me asking them to.
I started with Japanese in high school because I loved anime, and was very cynical about whether shows I liked would get translated, or translated accurately. (This was not long after the Sailor Moon dub switched a character's gender in order to avoid having to deal with a gay relationship). I was very intense about it for a while, studied Classical Japanese in Nagasaki for a year, but life got busy and anime got bad. I'm still trying to keep my fluency up (hopefully going back to Japan before too long!) by reading novels.
I started with Spanish because I was going to be a public librarian, and if you're going to be a public librarian pretty much anywhere in the US, you ought to know at least some Spanish. Unfortunately I never approached this with the drive and intensity I had for Japanese, and it's only in the past few years that I've started to get to a level where I'm pretty comfortable with reading. (I'm no longer a public librarian, but my institution is an Emerging Hispanic Serving Institution and besides, once you're a little bit competent in a language, it seems a shame not to stay with it.)
I started with Mandarin Chinese because it was one of the more common languages spoken at the library where I was working, and because I had the vague idea that I might do a PhD in Japanese Literature, and many programs will require you to have at least a little knowledge of Chinese. Much like Spanish, I got to a level where I knew a lot but not a level where I was really comfortable in daily situations. This is due to anxiety as much as anything else, I think. (And also, my linguistic auditory processing is kind of crap even in English).
So that's two languages I'm fluent-ish in, one more language where I'm sort of at that threshhold level just under fluent, and...maybe someday I'll get into Nirvana in Fire and The Untamed and all of those wuxia / xianxia series everybody was into in 2019 and start studying Chinese again, but probably not.
I'm honestly not that enamored of the idea of being a polyglot, even though I've studied Welsh and Finnish and Arabic and so on on Duolingo for a week. I'd rather go much deeper with the languages I'm already a bit good at.
posted by Jeanne at 4:40 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
I started with Japanese in high school because I loved anime, and was very cynical about whether shows I liked would get translated, or translated accurately. (This was not long after the Sailor Moon dub switched a character's gender in order to avoid having to deal with a gay relationship). I was very intense about it for a while, studied Classical Japanese in Nagasaki for a year, but life got busy and anime got bad. I'm still trying to keep my fluency up (hopefully going back to Japan before too long!) by reading novels.
I started with Spanish because I was going to be a public librarian, and if you're going to be a public librarian pretty much anywhere in the US, you ought to know at least some Spanish. Unfortunately I never approached this with the drive and intensity I had for Japanese, and it's only in the past few years that I've started to get to a level where I'm pretty comfortable with reading. (I'm no longer a public librarian, but my institution is an Emerging Hispanic Serving Institution and besides, once you're a little bit competent in a language, it seems a shame not to stay with it.)
I started with Mandarin Chinese because it was one of the more common languages spoken at the library where I was working, and because I had the vague idea that I might do a PhD in Japanese Literature, and many programs will require you to have at least a little knowledge of Chinese. Much like Spanish, I got to a level where I knew a lot but not a level where I was really comfortable in daily situations. This is due to anxiety as much as anything else, I think. (And also, my linguistic auditory processing is kind of crap even in English).
So that's two languages I'm fluent-ish in, one more language where I'm sort of at that threshhold level just under fluent, and...maybe someday I'll get into Nirvana in Fire and The Untamed and all of those wuxia / xianxia series everybody was into in 2019 and start studying Chinese again, but probably not.
I'm honestly not that enamored of the idea of being a polyglot, even though I've studied Welsh and Finnish and Arabic and so on on Duolingo for a week. I'd rather go much deeper with the languages I'm already a bit good at.
posted by Jeanne at 4:40 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
My personal definition is that if you've had a successful unscripted conversation with a native speaker of a language, you can say that you "speak" that language.
An example of what doesn't count (for my definition) would be simple ordering in a restaurant. That's a script that I can memorize in advance, with a very controlled vocabulary. Worth doing, but not the same.
By that definition, I can speak German, French and Spanish in addition to English. I've had at least some classroom instruction in each at different times. All have been supplemented by media, recorded media for years, streaming in the last decade and a half or so.
Practice and immersion is the challenge for a US resident, since we're adrift in a sea of English monolingualism. Reading is easy--I can understand 95%-plus of what I read in French. Speaking for me is....middling, and there's the constant worry as to whether you have "le mot juste" that matches current usage and connotations. Listening comprehension is difficult. And of course, words in French that are immediately recognizable in writing won't be in the context of everyday speech. I joke with people that "I speak bad French really well."
A bit of that happens in German, too, although the gap between spelling and pronunciation isn't as wide.
Reading a book in another language is another milestone, more satisfying, less likely to cause awkward moments or waste the other person's time. I've hit that mark in German and French several times.
posted by gimonca at 4:46 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
An example of what doesn't count (for my definition) would be simple ordering in a restaurant. That's a script that I can memorize in advance, with a very controlled vocabulary. Worth doing, but not the same.
By that definition, I can speak German, French and Spanish in addition to English. I've had at least some classroom instruction in each at different times. All have been supplemented by media, recorded media for years, streaming in the last decade and a half or so.
Practice and immersion is the challenge for a US resident, since we're adrift in a sea of English monolingualism. Reading is easy--I can understand 95%-plus of what I read in French. Speaking for me is....middling, and there's the constant worry as to whether you have "le mot juste" that matches current usage and connotations. Listening comprehension is difficult. And of course, words in French that are immediately recognizable in writing won't be in the context of everyday speech. I joke with people that "I speak bad French really well."
A bit of that happens in German, too, although the gap between spelling and pronunciation isn't as wide.
Reading a book in another language is another milestone, more satisfying, less likely to cause awkward moments or waste the other person's time. I've hit that mark in German and French several times.
posted by gimonca at 4:46 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
notoriety public: take your verilog off to tiny tapeout
posted by mbo at 4:52 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
posted by mbo at 4:52 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
When I was in West Africa I'd deal with people who regularly spoke bits of up to eight languages--French everyday, English when they'd be in Ghana, local primary languages like Fon and Ewe, the local dialect of Fulani/Peul, their birth language might be yet another, then a couple more beyond that.
posted by gimonca at 4:55 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
posted by gimonca at 4:55 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I learned German in high school in the UK, and did fairly well considering that I was also dealing with the mental sledgehammer of epilepsy at the time. I even retained a lot of it!
Much, much later, I got into K-pop and attempted Korean on Duolingo. Friends, it was a miserable failure, I think not so much because of anything I did, but because Duolingo's model is not really to make people learn a language, it's to have them subscribe as long as possible, and it kept cutting corners and moving goalposts until it was less than useless to me.
Might try Lingodeer when I have a bit more cash to actually pay for a language subscription, I hear they're way better for Asian languages.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 4:55 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
Much, much later, I got into K-pop and attempted Korean on Duolingo. Friends, it was a miserable failure, I think not so much because of anything I did, but because Duolingo's model is not really to make people learn a language, it's to have them subscribe as long as possible, and it kept cutting corners and moving goalposts until it was less than useless to me.
Might try Lingodeer when I have a bit more cash to actually pay for a language subscription, I hear they're way better for Asian languages.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 4:55 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
I am actively working on my Romanian. It's useful when visiting (Comrade Doll is from here; we're here for two weeks right now). But it's also a requirement for me to get citizenship, which we'll do in a few years when we semi-retire and move here.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:04 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:04 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
Language for travel is another scenario. I've had a few tactical victories there, but the knowledge all goes into hibernation after I get back home. Could I pick up some Portuguese again? Maybe.
I seem to do really well with pronunciation. I got complimented on my Portuguese in Portugal! The problem is that all the other stuff you need to have to speak the language doesn't keep up. People assume that you know a lot more than you do, and you quickly get in deeper water that you don't know how to navigate.
I think I got the Danish "soft d" licked, too, a couple of years ago. No small feat for a mere mortal. I should do that again someday.
Mandarin was tough. Months of trying with a little progress, but not much. I think more immersion, with real people interactions and printed material support would have helped.
posted by gimonca at 5:08 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
I seem to do really well with pronunciation. I got complimented on my Portuguese in Portugal! The problem is that all the other stuff you need to have to speak the language doesn't keep up. People assume that you know a lot more than you do, and you quickly get in deeper water that you don't know how to navigate.
I think I got the Danish "soft d" licked, too, a couple of years ago. No small feat for a mere mortal. I should do that again someday.
Mandarin was tough. Months of trying with a little progress, but not much. I think more immersion, with real people interactions and printed material support would have helped.
posted by gimonca at 5:08 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
I took German in High School and did OK. I was great at grammar, but my vocabulary was terrible, and it's hard if you don't know the words. Our teacher focused more on written than spoken German, and my then girlfriend took German for 4 years. When she got to college, they gave her a written placement test, and unsurprisingly, she aced it. She didn't let them put her in senior level classes her freshman year.
We're under Beryl at the moment. No flooding around the house, and we have power. The latest word from work is for people to come in @ 11:00 for the morning shift. We'll see if that happens. (I took the day off, so I'm just sitting at home, watching the news and listening to the wind and rain.)
posted by Spike Glee at 5:11 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
We're under Beryl at the moment. No flooding around the house, and we have power. The latest word from work is for people to come in @ 11:00 for the morning shift. We'll see if that happens. (I took the day off, so I'm just sitting at home, watching the news and listening to the wind and rain.)
posted by Spike Glee at 5:11 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
We asked my mother-in-law what we could help her with while we are here in Romania. She said she would like to have a watermelon. She lives up three flights of stairs and has arthritis. Carrying a four kilogram fruit up to the apartment on her own isn't really an option.
So we brought her a watermelon.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:16 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
So we brought her a watermelon.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:16 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
Why, French? 7th grade me was very into The Three Musketeers.
In my case, I picked French at that age because my grandmother was from the Francophone section of New Brunswick, Canada. I never really learned enough to have a conversation with her in French. But - many years later, I was preparing for a trip to Paris and played around with Duolingo to "brush up on it". I still felt pretty shaky when I set off on the trip. But then after a couple days something just sort of....clicked, and I was having simple conversations with people. I even went on a date where half the conversation was in French. I even got complimented on my French each time I had to beg permission to switch to English a couple times mid-stream (my pronunciation is apparently good, I just don't remember vocabulary).
It was the freakiest thing how that information was just suddenly there. I felt like Neo in The Matrix ("Je connais le kung-fu!").
Something similar to that suddenly-the-info-is-there also happened with Irish. I only know a handful of things - all taught me by my Irish friend, who started as my pen-pal when we were both twelve. She grew up speaking both at home - in fact, Irish was her first language and her parents didn't start speaking English around the house until she was about three. Her family did NOT live in the Gaeltach Irish-speaking district, so when she was three and went out to play with some neighbor kids and spoke Irish, they looked at her funny and her parents realized "oops" and started speaking both languages at home.
She'd taught me some basic things in the letters as we were growing up - hello (dia dhuit), goodbye (slán), Merry Christmas (Nollaig Shona), the kinds of things you would put in a letter. I finally went to visit when we were in college; she was living at home, and the whole family spoke English to me but Irish to each other (especially when they had some family stuff to tend to, like when her mom had to scold her two much-younger sisters). I didn't think I was picking anything up, but then at some point during my stay I went to a house party with them, and at some point I was helping to pass around a plate of canape's or something. One of the people there - to whom I had not been introduced formally, so I was just a stranger to them - thanked me in Irish: "go raibh maith agat!" And completely without thinking, I just said "you're welcome!" It took us both a couple seconds to realize - wait, I'd understood him. (Ironically, "you're welcome" is one phrase in Irish I can not retain!)
What's also kind of lovely is: I've run into another couple Irish speakers since, and they've been politely impressed each time I knew how to say a few things. But one also noticed that apparently, I speak Irish with a County Cork accent - just like my friend.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:39 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
In my case, I picked French at that age because my grandmother was from the Francophone section of New Brunswick, Canada. I never really learned enough to have a conversation with her in French. But - many years later, I was preparing for a trip to Paris and played around with Duolingo to "brush up on it". I still felt pretty shaky when I set off on the trip. But then after a couple days something just sort of....clicked, and I was having simple conversations with people. I even went on a date where half the conversation was in French. I even got complimented on my French each time I had to beg permission to switch to English a couple times mid-stream (my pronunciation is apparently good, I just don't remember vocabulary).
It was the freakiest thing how that information was just suddenly there. I felt like Neo in The Matrix ("Je connais le kung-fu!").
Something similar to that suddenly-the-info-is-there also happened with Irish. I only know a handful of things - all taught me by my Irish friend, who started as my pen-pal when we were both twelve. She grew up speaking both at home - in fact, Irish was her first language and her parents didn't start speaking English around the house until she was about three. Her family did NOT live in the Gaeltach Irish-speaking district, so when she was three and went out to play with some neighbor kids and spoke Irish, they looked at her funny and her parents realized "oops" and started speaking both languages at home.
She'd taught me some basic things in the letters as we were growing up - hello (dia dhuit), goodbye (slán), Merry Christmas (Nollaig Shona), the kinds of things you would put in a letter. I finally went to visit when we were in college; she was living at home, and the whole family spoke English to me but Irish to each other (especially when they had some family stuff to tend to, like when her mom had to scold her two much-younger sisters). I didn't think I was picking anything up, but then at some point during my stay I went to a house party with them, and at some point I was helping to pass around a plate of canape's or something. One of the people there - to whom I had not been introduced formally, so I was just a stranger to them - thanked me in Irish: "go raibh maith agat!" And completely without thinking, I just said "you're welcome!" It took us both a couple seconds to realize - wait, I'd understood him. (Ironically, "you're welcome" is one phrase in Irish I can not retain!)
What's also kind of lovely is: I've run into another couple Irish speakers since, and they've been politely impressed each time I knew how to say a few things. But one also noticed that apparently, I speak Irish with a County Cork accent - just like my friend.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:39 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
My spouse, MeFi's own Comrade Doll, speaks five languages fluently.
The most impressive thing though, to me, is that she sounds like herself in every language. The same tonality, the same brightness and warmth.
So many of the folks we know who are multilingual have slightly different personas in each language, with audibly different voices/vocal character. I understand why that happens and it makes sense to me.
But I always find it very impressive that CD sounds like the same person in French as in English, in Italian as in Hungarian or Romanian.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:53 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
The most impressive thing though, to me, is that she sounds like herself in every language. The same tonality, the same brightness and warmth.
So many of the folks we know who are multilingual have slightly different personas in each language, with audibly different voices/vocal character. I understand why that happens and it makes sense to me.
But I always find it very impressive that CD sounds like the same person in French as in English, in Italian as in Hungarian or Romanian.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:53 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
> something just sort of....clicked
I love the scene in When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit when Anna's French clicks into place.
posted by paduasoy at 5:54 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I love the scene in When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit when Anna's French clicks into place.
posted by paduasoy at 5:54 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
I told in another post how I grew up with english and a couple of forms of spanish (ecuador and PR). My high school was a jesuit academy so they were very intense on giving us the fundamentals of how to learn more and how to want to learn more. So, we had an introduction to latin, and I took french as an elective. Having fluency in one romance language makes moving to others a little bit easier. Then I moved to Denmark and eventually learned danish. Today I am fluent. During my first years of living in Copenhagen I took a trip to Greece and realised that while I was in no way fluent I could, however, read street signs and the names of the ships and when I thought about it I realised that it was because when you take high level math and engineering courses it is all about the greek letters and it must have stuck somewhere. Back in DK I was in a relationship with a danish/french girl with family in Bordeaux so that helped my french get stronger. Later, a previous company sent me to our offices/R&D in Barcelona and then I got more acquainted with the rules of castilian spanish and also got a crash course in catalan. I still switch over to "spain spanish" when meeting up with my friends from the area. I have since changed companies and now work with a team in Kuala Lumpur and last year had the opportunity to move to KL for a few months. I attempted to get a low level, basic understanding of malay and got enough to be polite and to be able to read a few of the food stall signs (very important for me!). I think, for me, it is not so much about wanting to learn a new language, it is more that I do not like not understanding things and that's what motivates my brain to absorb.
posted by alchemist at 5:54 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
posted by alchemist at 5:54 AM on July 8 [3 favorites]
I lived in Helsinki for a couple brief stints when I was younger, and it transformed my dumb American understanding of the world when I realized how much of an unfair advantage I had at everything just by being a native English speaker, even when I was a foreigner. I learned a little Finnish, but came nowhere near to fluency, just fondness.
What does making a career out of high language-learning skill look like these days? Asking for a small friend.
posted by eirias at 5:54 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
What does making a career out of high language-learning skill look like these days? Asking for a small friend.
posted by eirias at 5:54 AM on July 8 [1 favorite]
"It ain't stupid if it works!"
Well, this works and it ain't stupid.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:55 AM on July 8
Well, this works and it ain't stupid.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:55 AM on July 8
I studied Latin and Greek. The first Latin course was mandatory, and nobody liked it except me and a couple of other insufferable types. I was thirteen or so, and I still remember how wonderful it felt to see everything slot into place. That was my first new language. After that there was German and Greek and a desperate attempt at Arabic that dragged me through one semester, mainly because the teacher was kind.
Now I do Duolingo Spanish. It's worth what I pay for it, but my streak is so long that it predates Covid, and emotionally it's hard to let go of. I've been able to use it for simple tasks and communications, and it's a great feeling, but I gotta upgrade. That involves paying money, though, so I have been slow to.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:56 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
Now I do Duolingo Spanish. It's worth what I pay for it, but my streak is so long that it predates Covid, and emotionally it's hard to let go of. I've been able to use it for simple tasks and communications, and it's a great feeling, but I gotta upgrade. That involves paying money, though, so I have been slow to.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:56 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
I think, for me, it is not so much about wanting to learn a new language, it is more that I do not like not understanding things and that's what motivates my brain to absorb.
I think thats the key. Entire bookstores and libraries filled with books you can't read? How can anyone stand that? Waiting patiently for translations feels like poverty.
In related news, I've just started learning Russian. I actually signed up for an intensive class that requires two and a half hours every morning during the week (classes alternated with homework) and after only a month takes you from zero to A2 level. There's an exam at the end.
What can I say. I like how language learning tickles my brain. And the rewards are numerous from reading books in the original to conversing with people. Last time we went to Rome, the conversation I had in Italian with a woman whose father was close friends with Pasolini will stick in my memory for a very long time.
posted by vacapinta at 6:09 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
I think thats the key. Entire bookstores and libraries filled with books you can't read? How can anyone stand that? Waiting patiently for translations feels like poverty.
In related news, I've just started learning Russian. I actually signed up for an intensive class that requires two and a half hours every morning during the week (classes alternated with homework) and after only a month takes you from zero to A2 level. There's an exam at the end.
What can I say. I like how language learning tickles my brain. And the rewards are numerous from reading books in the original to conversing with people. Last time we went to Rome, the conversation I had in Italian with a woman whose father was close friends with Pasolini will stick in my memory for a very long time.
posted by vacapinta at 6:09 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
Let me tell you that is fun and gratifying for me to retain the French I was able to learn for free as an immigrant to Canada. Admittedly, it is Quebec French for the most part, but I love being able to read French and understand it. My spoken is awful because I get so self-conscious, but it is a pity that despite being officially a bilingual country, I rarely encounter Anglophones outside of Quebec who speak it. I understand that much like our pitiful Spanish and French classes in high school in the States, English speakers get pretty much the same deal during their high school year. Unless you really invested in delving deep, any French you learned back then isn't retained well.
Again, being an immigrant gave me a leg up in a bilingual country by full-on French language immersion in the Eastern Townships.
posted by Kitteh at 6:09 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
Again, being an immigrant gave me a leg up in a bilingual country by full-on French language immersion in the Eastern Townships.
posted by Kitteh at 6:09 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]
I've wondered about Duolingo and such-- people have fun with the app, but I'm not seeing people talk about achieving fluency for conversation or reading. Does fluency happen and I'm just not seeing people talk about it? Or do people need engagement with actual talk and writing that just doesn't happen from an app?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:14 AM on July 8
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:14 AM on July 8
Nancy Lebovitz -- I did Duolingo for Spanish, which is my mother's native tongue. (For Reasons, she was never allowed to teach us when we were kids.) I didn't retain much. Oddly, learning French helped me understand more of the Spanish language (duh), but I wouldn't say I could speak any Spanish. I can understand it but a conversation is beyond me.
posted by Kitteh at 6:20 AM on July 8
posted by Kitteh at 6:20 AM on July 8
Since I'm Canadian, I speak some French, but I was in the unlucky cohort for whom the Charter was passed just after that window in early childhood when language acquisition is easiest, and that was taught French by whatever warm body the school system could find because they were required to teach French but hadn't enough teachers yet. As an adult, I've supplemented with Duolingo, and it has helped a little, but I lock up in actual conversations and can't remember anything I know. I am okay at understanding spoken French, if the French speaker is patient or if it's something like an audiobook for elementary school kids, and I can pick up the general sense of song lyrics, sometimes, but that's about it.
posted by joannemerriam at 6:24 AM on July 8
posted by joannemerriam at 6:24 AM on July 8
When I was a kid, I was taught French and Hebrew. The Hebrew didn't really penetrate, and I never had any reason to use the French. In college, I took Japanese to fulfill my foreign-language requirement, and just stuck with it, eventually moving to Japan for a couple years and becoming a Japanese translator. As a senior in college, I took a semester of Chinese, figuring I had a leg up on the characters; while I did well in the class, I don't remember a speck of it.
A couple of years ago, my wife and I took a trip to Portugal, and to prepare, we took Duolingo lessons in Portuguese. After we'd been doing that for a month, we figured out how dramatic the differences were between Brazilian Portuguese (what Duolingo teaches) and European Portuguese. That was kind of frustrating, although the lessons helped anyhow. The typical English-speaking ability in Portugal turned out to be very high, and there were only a couple of interactions we had to stumble through in our minimal Portuguese. The funny thing was that when I was working through those Duolingo lessons, my long-disused synaptic pathways for French got reactivated, as I recognized echoes of verb conjugations I had learned decades before.
posted by adamrice at 6:29 AM on July 8
A couple of years ago, my wife and I took a trip to Portugal, and to prepare, we took Duolingo lessons in Portuguese. After we'd been doing that for a month, we figured out how dramatic the differences were between Brazilian Portuguese (what Duolingo teaches) and European Portuguese. That was kind of frustrating, although the lessons helped anyhow. The typical English-speaking ability in Portugal turned out to be very high, and there were only a couple of interactions we had to stumble through in our minimal Portuguese. The funny thing was that when I was working through those Duolingo lessons, my long-disused synaptic pathways for French got reactivated, as I recognized echoes of verb conjugations I had learned decades before.
posted by adamrice at 6:29 AM on July 8
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I admire greatly anyone who can pick up new languages, or be fluent in more than one.
[Edited to add one of the reasons I dropped out of university was the year I matriculated was the year they put a language requirement on graduating. I knew I would never make it.]
posted by maxwelton at 12:19 AM on July 8 [2 favorites]