Biden may be edging closer to dropping out of presidential race
July 18, 2024 5:01 PM Subscribe
Behind the Curtain: Top Dems now believe Biden will exit
* Obama, Pelosi and other Democrats make a fresh push for Biden to reconsider 2024 race
* People Close to Biden Say He Appears to Accept He May Have to Leave the Race
* Pelosi, Long Fixated on Winning, Is in No Mood to Lose With Biden
* Obama tells allies Biden’s path to winning reelection has greatly diminished
* Obama, Pelosi and other Democrats make a fresh push for Biden to reconsider 2024 race
* People Close to Biden Say He Appears to Accept He May Have to Leave the Race
* Pelosi, Long Fixated on Winning, Is in No Mood to Lose With Biden
* Obama tells allies Biden’s path to winning reelection has greatly diminished
Does he announce it ten minutes before Trump goes on stage?
posted by TwoWordReview at 5:07 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
posted by TwoWordReview at 5:07 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
I’m pretty sure I’m dying when the fucking criminal rapist wins again. I already can’t sleep at night. I’m ready to go.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:11 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:11 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
So which is it, young feller?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9OLZKSC5k
posted by thecincinnatikid at 5:13 PM on July 18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9OLZKSC5k
posted by thecincinnatikid at 5:13 PM on July 18
Biden gave an interview with BET saying that he would only drop out if he got info from a doctor that led him to change his mind, but then maybe less than a hour after that, the news dropped that Biden tested positive for COVID. It feels like the writing is on the wall at this point.
posted by jonp72 at 5:14 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 5:14 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
I’m not sure if anything in my life has made me loathe the Democrats, the NYT, the New Yorker, and the rest of the commentariat as this moment. Whether he stays or goes, whether the Dems win or lose, it’s all gonna be impossible to prove counterfactuals about how it could have gone a different way. What a fuckin’ depressing crab bucket of a party and an intelligentsia.
Anyway, time to start that audiobook about the underlying political conditions of the Weimar Republic.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:16 PM on July 18 [36 favorites]
Anyway, time to start that audiobook about the underlying political conditions of the Weimar Republic.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:16 PM on July 18 [36 favorites]
I've already moved onto who the new Veep will be. That is going to be yet another nailbiter.
posted by nanook at 5:16 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
posted by nanook at 5:16 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
I would like to remember Biden as a very good, better than expected, effective one term president who got shit done and knew when it was time to hand over the keys.
I would also like to see Trump get absolutely destroyed (at the election booth, natch) in November.
In one of these many possible universes in this rich and beautiful multiverse both of these things must be possible.
posted by vverse23 at 5:18 PM on July 18 [46 favorites]
I would also like to see Trump get absolutely destroyed (at the election booth, natch) in November.
In one of these many possible universes in this rich and beautiful multiverse both of these things must be possible.
posted by vverse23 at 5:18 PM on July 18 [46 favorites]
So Nancy Pelosi (age 84) is telling Joe Biden (age 81) that he's too old? I mean, I'm not saying she's wrong, but ...
posted by Slothrup at 5:21 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 5:21 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
I think changing candidates opens a WHOLE can of worms that those pushing for it haven't prepared for.
I intensely mistrust the pundits-and-donors arm of the operation.
If Biden were to step aside, I intensely mistrust anyone who tries to construct some kind of plan where they get to skip over Harris.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:22 PM on July 18 [31 favorites]
I intensely mistrust the pundits-and-donors arm of the operation.
If Biden were to step aside, I intensely mistrust anyone who tries to construct some kind of plan where they get to skip over Harris.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:22 PM on July 18 [31 favorites]
I hate all this, honestly. Would I have preferred a different candidate? Sure. (Warren, actually) But we're not really voting for a single guy so much as we're voting for an entire administration ... and whatever Biden's flaws I would prefer his administration over the other guy.
I deeply wish that we all could focus more on the policy than the single person, but whatever. Here we are, I guess. Shitty way to treat a guy who devoted his life to public service and the Dems.
The Dems right now are a team that have convinced themselves they're gonna lose, and I'm not sure changing candidates is going to change that. We need to stop yapping at other left-leaning folks for not being left enough and team up and talk about achievements and vision and all that -- but no. Instead its this.
Honestly, the thing that needs to change is not the candidate, so much as the party and campaign leadership. The Rs are selling rotten meat and doing so with a smile. What will win this election is for the political marking folks on the left to stop with the doomsaying and start selling the product of good, solid, progressive, left-leaning leadership.
Until that changes, it doesn't matter who the candidate is.
posted by anastasiav at 5:22 PM on July 18 [40 favorites]
I deeply wish that we all could focus more on the policy than the single person, but whatever. Here we are, I guess. Shitty way to treat a guy who devoted his life to public service and the Dems.
The Dems right now are a team that have convinced themselves they're gonna lose, and I'm not sure changing candidates is going to change that. We need to stop yapping at other left-leaning folks for not being left enough and team up and talk about achievements and vision and all that -- but no. Instead its this.
Honestly, the thing that needs to change is not the candidate, so much as the party and campaign leadership. The Rs are selling rotten meat and doing so with a smile. What will win this election is for the political marking folks on the left to stop with the doomsaying and start selling the product of good, solid, progressive, left-leaning leadership.
Until that changes, it doesn't matter who the candidate is.
posted by anastasiav at 5:22 PM on July 18 [40 favorites]
it’s all gonna be impossible to prove counterfactuals about how it could have gone a different way
isn't that true of ........(checks notes)......... every event in human history?
posted by lalochezia at 5:23 PM on July 18 [16 favorites]
isn't that true of ........(checks notes)......... every event in human history?
posted by lalochezia at 5:23 PM on July 18 [16 favorites]
[riding bomb down, waving cowboy hat dot gif]
posted by McBearclaw at 5:24 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
posted by McBearclaw at 5:24 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
I mean, I sure as fuck don’t feel like giving a dime to a party that pulls any of this kind of shit. Like, why would I? Y’all can’t even own your accomplishments right now. You think donations are bad now - you think they’re gonna get better when we flail ourselves into Hubert Humphrey?
I’ll add that I’ve never felt more politically disempowered than at this moment, or that this is a party of elites making calls. Like, at this point in the process one is always disempowered, but the art is making us not care about that disempowerment. And boy, do I care.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:24 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
I’ll add that I’ve never felt more politically disempowered than at this moment, or that this is a party of elites making calls. Like, at this point in the process one is always disempowered, but the art is making us not care about that disempowerment. And boy, do I care.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:24 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
I wonder if it'll actually be someone new or some other name I already had to live through in the past.
posted by GoblinHoney at 5:25 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 5:25 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
I love it, let's do it. I think the only thing that makes sense would be for Biden to resign; some weirdass thing where he doesn't run but endorses her wouldn't fly. She has to stand toe to toe with Trump. If that hurts Joe's feelings, oh well. It can't be VP Harris vs. President Trump.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:25 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:25 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
I guess I don't really understand the down side of Biden staying in, given that the heir apparent, and to my understanding the most popular choice at this point as the person to step up, is Kamala Harris.
If Biden is great (and he seems to be darned good, if dead wrong on some things), and the only concern is his age and that he might fall ill, well, if he becomes incapacitated, it's Harris anyway.
Whereas the shmozzle around Biden dropping out and replacements and the rumblings that every Red state would use that as an excuse to kick his successor off the ballot and the drama and the hey and the ho and the schmengle -- isn't an older Biden and a popular successor as VP the best of all worlds? Eating cake and having it too?
Maybe I'm just not a savvy politico, but I just don't get it.
posted by Shepherd at 5:25 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
If Biden is great (and he seems to be darned good, if dead wrong on some things), and the only concern is his age and that he might fall ill, well, if he becomes incapacitated, it's Harris anyway.
Whereas the shmozzle around Biden dropping out and replacements and the rumblings that every Red state would use that as an excuse to kick his successor off the ballot and the drama and the hey and the ho and the schmengle -- isn't an older Biden and a popular successor as VP the best of all worlds? Eating cake and having it too?
Maybe I'm just not a savvy politico, but I just don't get it.
posted by Shepherd at 5:25 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
So Nancy Pelosi (age 84) is telling Joe Biden (age 81) that he's too old? I mean, I'm not saying she's wrong, but ...
I'd love for Pelosi to step down. I'd have loved for her to have encouraged Feinstein to step down and let someone to her left take her seat a long time ago.
But Pelosi isn't running nationwide. She isn't running a risk of pulling down the ticket nationwide, and we don't get a fascist president if she somehow loses her seat.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:29 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
I'd love for Pelosi to step down. I'd have loved for her to have encouraged Feinstein to step down and let someone to her left take her seat a long time ago.
But Pelosi isn't running nationwide. She isn't running a risk of pulling down the ticket nationwide, and we don't get a fascist president if she somehow loses her seat.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:29 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
If Biden were to step aside, I intensely mistrust anyone who tries to construct some kind of plan where they get to skip over Harris.
Yep, I think that's why this letter is circulating: 1400 Black Women and Their Allies Have Indicated Their Support for Biden and Harris.
'“The suggestion that any candidate who won their primary should simply step aside because victory appears difficult at the moment is disrespectful to the voters, unjust and undemocratic,” the women wrote. '
My feeling is that if all these people who are concerned that Biden can't govern were fine with Harris taking over (as a vice president is elected to do), they wouldn't be so hell bent on getting him to resign right now.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:33 PM on July 18 [16 favorites]
Yep, I think that's why this letter is circulating: 1400 Black Women and Their Allies Have Indicated Their Support for Biden and Harris.
'“The suggestion that any candidate who won their primary should simply step aside because victory appears difficult at the moment is disrespectful to the voters, unjust and undemocratic,” the women wrote. '
My feeling is that if all these people who are concerned that Biden can't govern were fine with Harris taking over (as a vice president is elected to do), they wouldn't be so hell bent on getting him to resign right now.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:33 PM on July 18 [16 favorites]
Pelosi, if reporting is accurate, is also still capable of working around the clock calling/meeting with members of her party, counting votes - I don't gather she is only reliably sharp between the hours of 10am-4pm. I have my complaints about her, but the woman is a political machine (though yes, it's good she stepped down and passed the torch to Jeffries).
posted by coffeecat at 5:35 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 5:35 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
Is there a single directly attributed quote in any of this yet?
posted by Artw at 5:37 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:37 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
I mean, I sure as fuck don’t feel like giving a dime to a party that pulls any of this kind of shit.
Take that, face! No nose for you!
I think the only thing that makes sense would be for Biden to resign; some weirdass thing where he doesn't run but endorses her wouldn't fly.
That would be ideal (IF Biden dropped out, which I'm not saying I want) but then we won't have a vice-president until the Senate and House confirm one. In which case, Republican Mike Johnson becomes president if anything happens to Kamala Harris before January; and in which case, there is no vice president to oversee the whole electoral college vote counting thing.
posted by mistersix at 5:38 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
Take that, face! No nose for you!
I think the only thing that makes sense would be for Biden to resign; some weirdass thing where he doesn't run but endorses her wouldn't fly.
That would be ideal (IF Biden dropped out, which I'm not saying I want) but then we won't have a vice-president until the Senate and House confirm one. In which case, Republican Mike Johnson becomes president if anything happens to Kamala Harris before January; and in which case, there is no vice president to oversee the whole electoral college vote counting thing.
posted by mistersix at 5:38 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
we won't have a vice-president until the Senate and House confirm one
By which I mean unless a few more Republicans resign, I don't think the House will confirm a Democratic vice-president.
posted by mistersix at 5:39 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
By which I mean unless a few more Republicans resign, I don't think the House will confirm a Democratic vice-president.
posted by mistersix at 5:39 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
For a vaccinated person who's had Covid before, it's manageable.
posted by theora55 at 5:41 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 5:41 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
:(
As a libertarian, the best I can realistically hope for is a President whom I don't need to think about too much, and Biden has been great at that.
I'd much rather have 4 more years of little fixes to make existing programs work better (e.g., the Biden administration fixed the ACA family glitch) than some fired-up youngster out to enact grand sweeping changes to secure her/his legacy.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:41 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
As a libertarian, the best I can realistically hope for is a President whom I don't need to think about too much, and Biden has been great at that.
I'd much rather have 4 more years of little fixes to make existing programs work better (e.g., the Biden administration fixed the ACA family glitch) than some fired-up youngster out to enact grand sweeping changes to secure her/his legacy.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:41 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Yoooo let’s gooo I’m so excited about this - I saw a headline somewhere saying sharks are circling Biden - and it’s me, I’m sharks and I just want fresh blooooooood
Anyway I think this is exactly what the party needs. I hope there’s a competitive process to find the new candidate - I liked Clyburn’s idea of a mini primary - and I also think Harris stands a good shot at winning this mini primary; I think her speaking skills have gotten better since the last round. But please let us see a debate or two before the convention!
A shorter election season seems like a good idea anyway - European governments seem like they’re always calling snap elections, why do we have to drag ours out for so long here in the US??
posted by catcafe at 5:43 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Anyway I think this is exactly what the party needs. I hope there’s a competitive process to find the new candidate - I liked Clyburn’s idea of a mini primary - and I also think Harris stands a good shot at winning this mini primary; I think her speaking skills have gotten better since the last round. But please let us see a debate or two before the convention!
A shorter election season seems like a good idea anyway - European governments seem like they’re always calling snap elections, why do we have to drag ours out for so long here in the US??
posted by catcafe at 5:43 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Instead of focusing on Trump falling asleep at the RNC during his son's speech (GOPers said he was praying, ffs) and his gibberish, the awfulness of Vance, we're squandering every bit of press on Biden's presence in the race. Dems are just determined to shoot themselves in the feet. The most important question isn't if Biden should stay in the race, it's who's gonna run, and Dems have convinced me they can't organize their way out of a picnic, so will anybody be able to choose a candidate without chaos and carnage?
posted by theora55 at 5:45 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 5:45 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
I mean, I sure as fuck don’t feel like giving a dime to a party that pulls any of this kind of shit. Like, why would I?
Because President Harris is way, way better than President Trump.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:50 PM on July 18 [36 favorites]
Because President Harris is way, way better than President Trump.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:50 PM on July 18 [36 favorites]
I will believe it when I see it. Pelosi has been quoted as saying the press is just making stuff up.
I can't see, logistically, how this could actually happen, in terms of the legalities of candidates being on the ballot in all 50 states.
Two counterpoints:
Black Voters Matter Releases Statement Following Calls to Replace Biden-Harris Ticket
I 100% support the current ticket that we chose in the primaries: Biden for President, Harris for Vice-President.
I think any other option will make it much harder to win in November, which we absolutely must do.
posted by kristi at 5:50 PM on July 18 [22 favorites]
I can't see, logistically, how this could actually happen, in terms of the legalities of candidates being on the ballot in all 50 states.
Two counterpoints:
Black Voters Matter Releases Statement Following Calls to Replace Biden-Harris Ticket
We demand that the party and its donors respect the process that was put in place, a process which for the first time ever was led by South Carolina and which resulted in over 14 million votes—many by Black voters—for the Biden-Harris ticket.Rebecca Solnit: It’s the Pundits Who Have Turned on Biden, Not the Party
it was not the party itself but the punditocracy that had turned on Biden. Many of them insisted Biden had to prove his competence and energy after the debate, but have had little to say about his many campaign appearances, commanding NATO address Tuesday, praise from world leaders at the NATO summit, long press conference on foreign policy Thursday and energetic campaign rally in Detroit on Friday. It’s worth noting that the calls for Biden to go are coming in particular from powerful, high-status white men.
I 100% support the current ticket that we chose in the primaries: Biden for President, Harris for Vice-President.
I think any other option will make it much harder to win in November, which we absolutely must do.
posted by kristi at 5:50 PM on July 18 [22 favorites]
I don't think Biden should run but I also don't think Harris can even remotely beat Trump. She's mostly been invisible for 4 years and she couldn't have beat him in 2016. I'd love to be proven wrong but I just don't see it.
To my mind, the only person who could trounce Trump would be Gavin Newsom. I know lots of people hate him but not as many as hate Harris. He is unquestionably the best debater the Democrats have and would mop the floor with Trump in that arena. He's got the facts of the Democrats' accomplishments and the fortitude to shove Trump's lies back down his throat.
posted by dobbs at 5:52 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
To my mind, the only person who could trounce Trump would be Gavin Newsom. I know lots of people hate him but not as many as hate Harris. He is unquestionably the best debater the Democrats have and would mop the floor with Trump in that arena. He's got the facts of the Democrats' accomplishments and the fortitude to shove Trump's lies back down his throat.
posted by dobbs at 5:52 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Promises to be the first actually non ultra dull boring democratic convention in, well, like ever. Which may actually be a good thing, if it catches peoples attention (ask the guy on the street, going to vote? What election?) But I really do not see Harris firing up the emotions of the electorate.
A Kelly/Whitmer ticket might work.
posted by sammyo at 5:52 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
A Kelly/Whitmer ticket might work.
posted by sammyo at 5:52 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
(Oh, and I'm not saying Newsom should be the candidate, so I guess I"m saying I don't think the Democrats can win. Again, would love to be proven wrong.)
posted by dobbs at 5:54 PM on July 18
posted by dobbs at 5:54 PM on July 18
Does he announce it ten minutes before Trump goes on stage?
God, I hope not. Please don't give Trump the biggest spotlight of his campaign and a chance to crow about Sleepy Joe dropping out because he knew he couldn't win. It would be the worse possible timing. Wait until the convention is over and then announce, if it's going to happen.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 5:58 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
God, I hope not. Please don't give Trump the biggest spotlight of his campaign and a chance to crow about Sleepy Joe dropping out because he knew he couldn't win. It would be the worse possible timing. Wait until the convention is over and then announce, if it's going to happen.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 5:58 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
Anyway, I have a hard time believing it won't be Harris - the time to do a mini-primary is closed - would have been different if he had stepped down shortly after the debate, but we're now three weeks into this, and there has been enough chaos - I think most people would rather just unite around someone and get to work building a case for them - Harris is the most elegant/least controversial pick. There is a tweet going somewhat viral from a journalist claiming that they've "heard" that there will be an open-convention, but a lot of people are failing basic Internet literacy - if you look that journalist up, he's from NEWSMAX.
I’ll add that I’ve never felt more politically disempowered than at this moment, or that this is a party of elites making calls.
I don't share this as way of argument (honestly, I like Metafilter as a source for observing how people interpret the same events differently), but I have rarely felt more politically empowered than in this moment (it comes 2nd only to when it looked like Bernie might actually pull it off after his Nevada primary win), and more open to the idea that the Democrat Party actually might, for once, show itself capable of listening to the hot polloi. The peak moment of feeling disempowered for me was when Biden announced that he was planning on running again, and it became clear that the DNC was doing all it could to rig the primaries to ensure that they remained uncompetitive, for a candidate that had been avoiding doing press conferences and interviews, and was alienated various parts of the base. Voters had been telling pollsters for well over a year that they felt Biden was too old for another term, even voters who liked the guy, and the DNC pretty much said "Yeah, we don't care what you think." I see this moment not as the elites making decisions, but the elites catching up with where most of us have been for awhile now. And it feels fucking good.
I dunno, maybe it's because I already considered the Democratic Party to be fundamentally broken, but I'm genuinely excited to see that the party is maybe showing that it's capable of actually listening to its grassroots. And I know social media is an imperfect measure of the country, but I am seeing people from a wide range of political leanings, from moderate to leftist, get genuinely excited about the prospect of a change. Don't underestimate how many people felt dead inside by the prospect of a Biden-Trump rematch! If Biden drops out and Harris takes over, I think a lot of people are going to feel excited and ready to advocate for her in way that they wouldn't feel capable of for Biden.
posted by coffeecat at 5:58 PM on July 18 [26 favorites]
I’ll add that I’ve never felt more politically disempowered than at this moment, or that this is a party of elites making calls.
I don't share this as way of argument (honestly, I like Metafilter as a source for observing how people interpret the same events differently), but I have rarely felt more politically empowered than in this moment (it comes 2nd only to when it looked like Bernie might actually pull it off after his Nevada primary win), and more open to the idea that the Democrat Party actually might, for once, show itself capable of listening to the hot polloi. The peak moment of feeling disempowered for me was when Biden announced that he was planning on running again, and it became clear that the DNC was doing all it could to rig the primaries to ensure that they remained uncompetitive, for a candidate that had been avoiding doing press conferences and interviews, and was alienated various parts of the base. Voters had been telling pollsters for well over a year that they felt Biden was too old for another term, even voters who liked the guy, and the DNC pretty much said "Yeah, we don't care what you think." I see this moment not as the elites making decisions, but the elites catching up with where most of us have been for awhile now. And it feels fucking good.
I dunno, maybe it's because I already considered the Democratic Party to be fundamentally broken, but I'm genuinely excited to see that the party is maybe showing that it's capable of actually listening to its grassroots. And I know social media is an imperfect measure of the country, but I am seeing people from a wide range of political leanings, from moderate to leftist, get genuinely excited about the prospect of a change. Don't underestimate how many people felt dead inside by the prospect of a Biden-Trump rematch! If Biden drops out and Harris takes over, I think a lot of people are going to feel excited and ready to advocate for her in way that they wouldn't feel capable of for Biden.
posted by coffeecat at 5:58 PM on July 18 [26 favorites]
Five reasons Kamala Harris is probably in if Biden drops out
So Nancy Pelosi (age 84) is telling Joe Biden (age 81) that he's too old? I mean, I'm not saying she's wrong, but ...
Pelosi stepped down as party leader in 2022, establishing the I'm-getting-too-old-for-this-shit precedent.
We chose Harris to take over for Biden if something happened to him. Age caught up with him. She should be the nominee.
But we're not really voting for a single guy so much as we're voting for an entire administration ... and whatever Biden's flaws I would prefer his administration over the other guy.
Harris would most likely carry over a lot of his administration. Also, Black women are a huge part of the Democratic base, and passing over a Black woman that was explicitly picked to succeed Biden would probably be a distaster.
posted by Michelle Hasenpfeiffer at 5:59 PM on July 18 [28 favorites]
So Nancy Pelosi (age 84) is telling Joe Biden (age 81) that he's too old? I mean, I'm not saying she's wrong, but ...
Pelosi stepped down as party leader in 2022, establishing the I'm-getting-too-old-for-this-shit precedent.
"With great confidence in our caucus, I will not seek reelection to Democratic leadership in the next Congress. For me the hour has come for a new generation to lead the Democratic caucus that I so deeply respect," Pelosi said in a speech on the House floor. "I'm grateful that so many are ready and willing to shoulder this awesome responsibility."I 100% support the current ticket that we chose in the primaries: Biden for President, Harris for Vice-President.
We chose Harris to take over for Biden if something happened to him. Age caught up with him. She should be the nominee.
But we're not really voting for a single guy so much as we're voting for an entire administration ... and whatever Biden's flaws I would prefer his administration over the other guy.
Harris would most likely carry over a lot of his administration. Also, Black women are a huge part of the Democratic base, and passing over a Black woman that was explicitly picked to succeed Biden would probably be a distaster.
posted by Michelle Hasenpfeiffer at 5:59 PM on July 18 [28 favorites]
Yep, I think that's why this letter is circulating: 1400 Black Women and Their Allies
(totally not attacking the poster or the women) but can 1400 of any demographic swing A DISTRICT let alone a state or enough swing states to make a difference? Same with Newsom winning a debate, no one cares. (ok a thousand people care) What needs to happen is someone that can grab the imagination of the electorate and stir things up so people show up and actually vote.
posted by sammyo at 6:01 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
(totally not attacking the poster or the women) but can 1400 of any demographic swing A DISTRICT let alone a state or enough swing states to make a difference? Same with Newsom winning a debate, no one cares. (ok a thousand people care) What needs to happen is someone that can grab the imagination of the electorate and stir things up so people show up and actually vote.
posted by sammyo at 6:01 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
In another year, I might object more to overriding the primary result this way, but this year it wasn't a competitive primary at all, precisely because the party elites had already decided it was going to be Biden again.
Personally I think Harris has a shot. Most voters don't want Biden or Trump, and she's relatable a way that Biden and Trump aren't and Obama and Bill Clinton were. She seems like a person you would meet in real life, like she could be your boss, or your neighbor, or your friend's mom, which isn't necessarily the best criteria for "Leader of the Free World" but I think will make a difference when people want a return to something resembling stability.
posted by smelendez at 6:01 PM on July 18 [23 favorites]
Personally I think Harris has a shot. Most voters don't want Biden or Trump, and she's relatable a way that Biden and Trump aren't and Obama and Bill Clinton were. She seems like a person you would meet in real life, like she could be your boss, or your neighbor, or your friend's mom, which isn't necessarily the best criteria for "Leader of the Free World" but I think will make a difference when people want a return to something resembling stability.
posted by smelendez at 6:01 PM on July 18 [23 favorites]
If Biden drops out, the candidate is 100% going to be Harris, if only because she's the only one who can use the campaign money that's been contributed to Biden. It's a massive tactical advantage over anyone else, and the Dems can't afford to let that money go to waste.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:02 PM on July 18 [23 favorites]
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:02 PM on July 18 [23 favorites]
I think any other option will make it much harder to win in November, which we absolutely must do.
that's just it, this is a we thing.
It's our we's vs their we's. At the end of the day we've got to leave it to the collective wisdom of the electorates in the ~7 battleground states in play this year.
Anybody having any firm opinion on how this is going to go probably doesn't have enough information to reach that certainty.
posted by torokunai at 6:02 PM on July 18
that's just it, this is a we thing.
It's our we's vs their we's. At the end of the day we've got to leave it to the collective wisdom of the electorates in the ~7 battleground states in play this year.
Anybody having any firm opinion on how this is going to go probably doesn't have enough information to reach that certainty.
posted by torokunai at 6:02 PM on July 18
On March 31, 1968, LBJ announced, "I shall not seek, and I will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your President." He served out his term.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:03 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 6:03 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
She seems like a person you would meet in real life
I have actually met her in real life. I was waiting for a bus after work when she was running for city attorney in San Francisco and she asked me for my vote. (Tiny, but I was a lineman in football.)
posted by kirkaracha at 6:05 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
I have actually met her in real life. I was waiting for a bus after work when she was running for city attorney in San Francisco and she asked me for my vote. (Tiny, but I was a lineman in football.)
posted by kirkaracha at 6:05 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Least of our worries given how much this business has driven up the chances of a trump win, but this is essentially a donors coup, and to the extent the donors are expecting their chosen candidate to win (likely not an overriding concern) that candidate is going to be beholden to those donors and they are going to want things that are bad. Biden’s politics are generally trash, I would expect any replacement’s to be worse.
posted by Artw at 6:09 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:09 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
I don't think Biden should run but I also don't think Harris can even remotely beat Trump. She's mostly been invisible for 4 years and she couldn't have beat him in 2016. I'd love to be proven wrong but I just don't see it.
FairVote ran a ranked choice poll among the leading non-Biden Democrats (including 6 candidates + Someone else + Undecided as options) & Kamala Harris easily won the poll. When compared to the rest of the Democratic bench, Harris is the strongest choice & she appears to be doing better among crucial demographics (women, independents, youth) that the Democratic coalition will need to win.
posted by jonp72 at 6:10 PM on July 18 [16 favorites]
FairVote ran a ranked choice poll among the leading non-Biden Democrats (including 6 candidates + Someone else + Undecided as options) & Kamala Harris easily won the poll. When compared to the rest of the Democratic bench, Harris is the strongest choice & she appears to be doing better among crucial demographics (women, independents, youth) that the Democratic coalition will need to win.
posted by jonp72 at 6:10 PM on July 18 [16 favorites]
The Hill is reporting that "Well-connected Democratic Party insiders say they expect President Biden to make a major announcement about his future soon after the Republican National Convention concludes in Milwaukee and that congressional leaders expect that Vice President Harris will become their nominee for president if Biden drops his reelection bid." And the short-list for VP "has boiled down to Sen. Mark Kelly (D-Ariz.), Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear and North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper."
posted by coffeecat at 6:15 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 6:15 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
What worries me a lot is even if Biden stays in and wins, he's already lost the faith of much of the world. Which in foreign policy is a bad bad thing. Especially with Ukraine and Gaza going on. Our allies need to be able to trust us. They certainly don't trust Trump. But now they're questioning Biden. Talking to people I know outside the US the most common thing I hear is they "don't know who's running the US right now".
posted by downtohisturtles at 6:16 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 6:16 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
This right here is evidence why Republicans win more elections and get their way more often: Running a donor coup is the dumbest way to choose your leader, they are wasting all the political capital they had, and Republicans are just standing back either laughing or joining in with 'concerns', and able to tie those 'concerns' back to the election 4 years ago. Embarrassing.
And would you want to be Harris in all this? She is basically being required to backstab her boss, and if she loses, everyone is going to blame Trump policies on her loss.
posted by The_Vegetables at 6:16 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
And would you want to be Harris in all this? She is basically being required to backstab her boss, and if she loses, everyone is going to blame Trump policies on her loss.
posted by The_Vegetables at 6:16 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
kremlinology jfc
posted by lalochezia at 6:17 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 6:17 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
Democrats have outperformed polling in almost every election since the Supreme Court took away women's constitutional right to abortion. Joe Biden has campaigned on restoring Roe v. Wade, but as a Catholic man, fighting for abortion rights doesn't come naturally to him. Donald Trump took credit for ending Roe v. Wade, and Kamala Harris can address that much more directly because it affected her personally. This election is the first chance people have to punish Trump directly.
Also, as a former prosecutor she can take Mr. 34 Felony Convictions to the woodshed.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:17 PM on July 18 [19 favorites]
Also, as a former prosecutor she can take Mr. 34 Felony Convictions to the woodshed.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:17 PM on July 18 [19 favorites]
Pelosi stepped down as party leader in 2022, establishing the I'm-getting-too-old-for-this-shit precedent.
If the Democratic Party is capable of learning anything, and if there’s a world left for them to learn anything in after this, I hope to high heaven they finally, finally realize that dealing with their gerontocracy problem is life or death and they actually have to clear the way to let people though from time to time.
posted by Artw at 6:17 PM on July 18 [31 favorites]
If the Democratic Party is capable of learning anything, and if there’s a world left for them to learn anything in after this, I hope to high heaven they finally, finally realize that dealing with their gerontocracy problem is life or death and they actually have to clear the way to let people though from time to time.
posted by Artw at 6:17 PM on July 18 [31 favorites]
So we’re just letting the NYT run presidents off now because they won’t give interviews? Is only one candidate too old?
How is this even supposed to work? Are we supposed to believe that a brokered convention would name someone to Biden’s left to pick up younger voters who are disenchanted with him? Are we supposed to believe that this won’t alienate people who voted for him in the primary? Are we supposed to believe it won’t alienate young voters the party desperately needs to turn out, if they think the party is just going to name somebody else who won’t care what they think? Are we supposed to believe that the Democratic Party that has done such a bad job with messaging so far will suddenly be better at it with a different candidate they chose at the last minute?
Are we supposed to believe conservative media and the Trump campaign won’t make an incredible amount of hay out of the fact nobody voted for the named candidate?
In short, are we supposed to believe this won’t suppress voter turnout even more than its already precipitous levels?
posted by fedward at 6:17 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
How is this even supposed to work? Are we supposed to believe that a brokered convention would name someone to Biden’s left to pick up younger voters who are disenchanted with him? Are we supposed to believe that this won’t alienate people who voted for him in the primary? Are we supposed to believe it won’t alienate young voters the party desperately needs to turn out, if they think the party is just going to name somebody else who won’t care what they think? Are we supposed to believe that the Democratic Party that has done such a bad job with messaging so far will suddenly be better at it with a different candidate they chose at the last minute?
Are we supposed to believe conservative media and the Trump campaign won’t make an incredible amount of hay out of the fact nobody voted for the named candidate?
In short, are we supposed to believe this won’t suppress voter turnout even more than its already precipitous levels?
posted by fedward at 6:17 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
I'm not going to get into the main argument; I do have an opinion there (would rather not change the nominee at this point), but others have made that case much better than I could.
And the short-list for VP "has boiled down to Sen. Mark Kelly (D-Ariz.), Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear and North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper."
These would all be awesome picks, but I'd be worried about who'd succeed any one of them in their home states, especially Beshear.
posted by May Kasahara at 6:18 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
And the short-list for VP "has boiled down to Sen. Mark Kelly (D-Ariz.), Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear and North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper."
These would all be awesome picks, but I'd be worried about who'd succeed any one of them in their home states, especially Beshear.
posted by May Kasahara at 6:18 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
And would you want to be Harris in all this? She is basically being required to backstab her boss
She's not backstabbing her boss. She's the backup quarterback whose job is it to go into the game if the starter can't continue.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:19 PM on July 18 [40 favorites]
She's not backstabbing her boss. She's the backup quarterback whose job is it to go into the game if the starter can't continue.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:19 PM on July 18 [40 favorites]
These would all be awesome picks, but I'd be worried about who'd succeed any one of them in their home states, especially Beshear.
Arizona law requires the governor to replace a senatorial vacancy with someone from the same party.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:20 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
Arizona law requires the governor to replace a senatorial vacancy with someone from the same party.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:20 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
In that case Mark Kelly would be an outstanding choice!
posted by TwoWordReview at 6:20 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
posted by TwoWordReview at 6:20 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
For a vaccinated person who's had Covid before, it's manageable.
This is not to say that Biden should or shouldn't step aside, but this isn't anywhere close to a universally true statement, in fact all evidence points to repeated exposures INCREASING the odds of major health problems from Covid.
Having COVID once should make you MORE careful not less.
posted by Gygesringtone at 6:20 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
This is not to say that Biden should or shouldn't step aside, but this isn't anywhere close to a universally true statement, in fact all evidence points to repeated exposures INCREASING the odds of major health problems from Covid.
Having COVID once should make you MORE careful not less.
posted by Gygesringtone at 6:20 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
She's not backstabbing her boss. She's the backup quarterback whose job is it to go into the game if the starter can't continue.
There's only 109 days until the election. She's got to be ready to go on Day 1, when technically she can still be replaced by Biden if he wanted a different VP. Back up quarterback in sports is not a popular position, except to those angry in the cheap seats.
posted by The_Vegetables at 6:22 PM on July 18
There's only 109 days until the election. She's got to be ready to go on Day 1, when technically she can still be replaced by Biden if he wanted a different VP. Back up quarterback in sports is not a popular position, except to those angry in the cheap seats.
posted by The_Vegetables at 6:22 PM on July 18
Talking to people I know outside the US the most common thing I hear is they "don't know who's running the US right now".
They're echoing US media and many US viewers, for better or for worse.
Regardless of Biden's actual abilities currently and ability to see things through evenly for another 4 years, his campaign did nothing adequate to head off or counter these concerns. Biden already tends toward a way of speaking and engaging with creeping fascism that is probably generational but reads to many others as if he's afraid to take the gloves off. If he was capable and had shown that by mounting a sustained, intensely public frontal attack on the insane Republican platform/candidates he wouldn't be in this mess.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:23 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
They're echoing US media and many US viewers, for better or for worse.
Regardless of Biden's actual abilities currently and ability to see things through evenly for another 4 years, his campaign did nothing adequate to head off or counter these concerns. Biden already tends toward a way of speaking and engaging with creeping fascism that is probably generational but reads to many others as if he's afraid to take the gloves off. If he was capable and had shown that by mounting a sustained, intensely public frontal attack on the insane Republican platform/candidates he wouldn't be in this mess.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:23 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
There’s a certain irony to pulling out “COVID? That’s a serious medical issue!” for a man who has done more than maybe only one other individual to spread the idea that it’s fine and you should just head back to work.
posted by Artw at 6:24 PM on July 18 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:24 PM on July 18 [18 favorites]
Are we supposed to believe conservative media and the Trump campaign won’t make an incredible amount of hay out of the fact nobody voted for the named candidate?
Who cares? They’ll make the same hay with truth for once but it’s the same hay. They’ll quickly move on to how Harris slept her way to the top only to backstab the men because she’s so angry (wink) but also she’s not black enough. Who gives a shit.
As a devoted leftist who’s had to suck it up and vote for war criminals and horrible people my entire fucking life if you don’t like the process by which the Democratic Party chooses their candidates, suck it up and vote for them anyway.
posted by Uncle at 6:24 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
Who cares? They’ll make the same hay with truth for once but it’s the same hay. They’ll quickly move on to how Harris slept her way to the top only to backstab the men because she’s so angry (wink) but also she’s not black enough. Who gives a shit.
As a devoted leftist who’s had to suck it up and vote for war criminals and horrible people my entire fucking life if you don’t like the process by which the Democratic Party chooses their candidates, suck it up and vote for them anyway.
posted by Uncle at 6:24 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
She's not backstabbing her boss. She's the backup quarterback whose job is it to go into the game if the starter can't continue
If she’s been dumb enough to do anything to encourage this mess you can count on it coming out the instant she’s the candidate, from many of the same people who have been pushing her.
posted by Artw at 6:26 PM on July 18
If she’s been dumb enough to do anything to encourage this mess you can count on it coming out the instant she’s the candidate, from many of the same people who have been pushing her.
posted by Artw at 6:26 PM on July 18
(Current AZ Gov is a D anyhow, btw, but I really don’t know who she would pick to replace Kelly, and not all AZ dems are people I’d want).
posted by nat at 6:28 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
posted by nat at 6:28 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
Someone on Bluesky pointed out how remarkable it is that no leaks at all seem to have come from Harris's office, and no news org's been able to use her as a wedge-driver in the way they have other senior Dems. Her statements have been well worded, her interviews to the point and nowhere else.
That is a professional at work.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:31 PM on July 18 [19 favorites]
That is a professional at work.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:31 PM on July 18 [19 favorites]
suck it up and vote for them anyway.
Sure, that’s a great way to reach out to alienated voters. I’m sure it will work just as well with not-Biden as it’s working with Biden now.
posted by fedward at 6:32 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Sure, that’s a great way to reach out to alienated voters. I’m sure it will work just as well with not-Biden as it’s working with Biden now.
posted by fedward at 6:32 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
She's mostly been invisible for 4 years and she couldn't have beat him in 2016. I'd love to be proven wrong but I just don't see it.
As someone from Oakland, I think it's going to be very hard for certain people* to vote for a Black/Desi woman from California. I also think it's going to be very hard for certain people to vote for someone they consider a cop. You basically alienate lots of young, super lefty young progressives and every dumbass centrist who can only vote for white men from not-California parts of the country. Maybe it's not a problem if you can somehow mobilize everyone else, but mobilization is the same issue for Biden, no?
I'm not anti- Kamala Harris. I'm just not convinced that once she's in the sights- with the exact same record to run on as Biden- that her negatives, perceived and real, are not going to be overcome. I don't think anyone else should be considered though- she was voted in to be the replacement. Frankly I'm pretty mad at the democrats right now for indulging in a freakout and running around flapping their hands instead of being unified.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:34 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
As someone from Oakland, I think it's going to be very hard for certain people* to vote for a Black/Desi woman from California. I also think it's going to be very hard for certain people to vote for someone they consider a cop. You basically alienate lots of young, super lefty young progressives and every dumbass centrist who can only vote for white men from not-California parts of the country. Maybe it's not a problem if you can somehow mobilize everyone else, but mobilization is the same issue for Biden, no?
I'm not anti- Kamala Harris. I'm just not convinced that once she's in the sights- with the exact same record to run on as Biden- that her negatives, perceived and real, are not going to be overcome. I don't think anyone else should be considered though- she was voted in to be the replacement. Frankly I'm pretty mad at the democrats right now for indulging in a freakout and running around flapping their hands instead of being unified.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:34 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
Is that you, fedward? Because I expect Uncle is speaking to those present and not every voter everywhere.
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:34 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:34 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
That is a professional at work.
Or, fully with my cynics hat on, orchestration to protect an asset until it’s time to burn her.
posted by Artw at 6:35 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
Or, fully with my cynics hat on, orchestration to protect an asset until it’s time to burn her.
posted by Artw at 6:35 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
My only thought is that, if Biden chooses to leave the race, then I support his decision. These last four years have been hard on him. He's given a lot to this nation. If he decides to set this burden down, then he can be proud of his service to this country.
posted by SPrintF at 6:37 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 6:37 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
For the life of me I cannot figure out why he's the Only One That Can Do It for some people. Like you cannot simultaneously believe that beating Trump is the single most important thing in politics right now and that Biden cannot step down under any circumstances. Do you just hate Kamala that much? I mean, I do, but I'm one of the insane people. Why are all the rational people with a grown up understanding of how things really work so convinced that the media and the Democratic party and the pollsters and the Bernie bros and Russia and Mark Zuckerberg and Jimmy Hoffa are in a conspiracy to throw the election to Trump because they would dare question our oldest president ever?
posted by jy4m at 6:41 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 6:41 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
Bernie bros
Sanders and most of the Squad have put out statements strongly supportive of Biden in recent days: another thing that makes me mistrust the push to oust him.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:44 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
Sanders and most of the Squad have put out statements strongly supportive of Biden in recent days: another thing that makes me mistrust the push to oust him.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:44 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
Harris 4 prez and Newsom as VP, let’s see it !
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:44 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:44 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
A day after he had covid (which we've all agreed is nothing, right? That's why we keep passing it around gleefully, right? ) the press is on him to drop out.
If that isn't proof positive about the bias of the media, nothing can make it clearer.
The GOP cannot wait to unleash the lawyers to make sure the Dem candidate does not appear on at least 3 states' ballots.
The country just can't wait to sink its teeth into a brown woman.
It's almost like they're projecting the latent hatred of someone else.
Great. Just, great. Can't wait.
posted by Dashy at 6:44 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
If that isn't proof positive about the bias of the media, nothing can make it clearer.
The GOP cannot wait to unleash the lawyers to make sure the Dem candidate does not appear on at least 3 states' ballots.
The country just can't wait to sink its teeth into a brown woman.
It's almost like they're projecting the latent hatred of someone else.
Great. Just, great. Can't wait.
posted by Dashy at 6:44 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
Harris 4 prez and Newsom as VP, let’s see it !
Aside from Newsom being an absolute ghoul who should be nowhere near the reins of national power, this is unconstitutional.
posted by Gadarene at 6:46 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
So we’re just letting the NYT run presidents off now because they won’t give interviews? Is only one candidate too old?
Despite Biden's claims, this is not the creation of the media in general or the NYT in particular. This was a concern that was raised in 2020. Biden's debate performance was something everyone saw. He has struggled public since then on multiple occasions. And a majority of Democrats want him gone. The media have reported on this because it is major news people are concerned about.
Sure, that’s a great way to reach out to alienated voters. I’m sure it will work just as well with not-Biden as it’s working with Biden now.
It is a really weird sensation, watching Biden supporters suggest that they won't bother to support the Democrats or feel disrespected by being told to vote against Trump even if they don't like the candidate. Especially because the candidate most likely to replace Biden is Harris. Kamala Harris wouldn't have been my pick for who to run in 2024, but she is the vice president. She is also very close to Biden on most issues and was part of the ticket Biden voters have been supporting.
Biden isn't being pressured to leave because the donors want a specific someone else, or because they have policy disagreements with him. He is being pressured out because all indications are that he will lose to Trump. I think that is a very justifiable motivation.
The country just can't wait to sink its teeth into a brown woman.
I don't know what this means, but it seems weird.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:47 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
Despite Biden's claims, this is not the creation of the media in general or the NYT in particular. This was a concern that was raised in 2020. Biden's debate performance was something everyone saw. He has struggled public since then on multiple occasions. And a majority of Democrats want him gone. The media have reported on this because it is major news people are concerned about.
Sure, that’s a great way to reach out to alienated voters. I’m sure it will work just as well with not-Biden as it’s working with Biden now.
It is a really weird sensation, watching Biden supporters suggest that they won't bother to support the Democrats or feel disrespected by being told to vote against Trump even if they don't like the candidate. Especially because the candidate most likely to replace Biden is Harris. Kamala Harris wouldn't have been my pick for who to run in 2024, but she is the vice president. She is also very close to Biden on most issues and was part of the ticket Biden voters have been supporting.
Biden isn't being pressured to leave because the donors want a specific someone else, or because they have policy disagreements with him. He is being pressured out because all indications are that he will lose to Trump. I think that is a very justifiable motivation.
The country just can't wait to sink its teeth into a brown woman.
I don't know what this means, but it seems weird.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:47 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
For the life of me I cannot figure out why he's the Only One That Can Do It for some people
Mostly people just don’t think switching candidate is a magic fix and have skepticism as to the mechanics of it working out, coupled with a cynicism towards the donors and media pushing the process.
posted by Artw at 6:48 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
Mostly people just don’t think switching candidate is a magic fix and have skepticism as to the mechanics of it working out, coupled with a cynicism towards the donors and media pushing the process.
posted by Artw at 6:48 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
"And would you want to be Harris in all this? She is basically being required to backstab her boss"
what? it's literally HER JOB to replace him if necessary
like... that's what the Vice Presidency exists for
yeah, replacing him as the nominee while he finishes out his term is a little weird, but it's been her job this whole time to be prepared to become President herself if needed
while I'd prefer to stick with Biden because I like the way his administration has prioritized fixing problems in existing programs over starting new ones, I'm fine with her too since hopefully there would be enough continuity from the Biden administration that she keeps whoever has been doing the things I like
posted by Jacqueline at 6:49 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
what? it's literally HER JOB to replace him if necessary
like... that's what the Vice Presidency exists for
yeah, replacing him as the nominee while he finishes out his term is a little weird, but it's been her job this whole time to be prepared to become President herself if needed
while I'd prefer to stick with Biden because I like the way his administration has prioritized fixing problems in existing programs over starting new ones, I'm fine with her too since hopefully there would be enough continuity from the Biden administration that she keeps whoever has been doing the things I like
posted by Jacqueline at 6:49 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
Biden isn't being pressured to leave because the donors want a specific someone else, or because they have policy disagreements with him. He is being pressured out because all indications are that he will lose to Trump. I think that is a very justifiable motivation.
And when Harris pulls poorly do they replace her too then?
posted by beaning at 6:51 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
And when Harris pulls poorly do they replace her too then?
posted by beaning at 6:51 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
If [Harris has] been dumb enough to do anything to encourage this mess...
I doubt it. She's being put in a very tough spot here. None of the other potential contenders (Newsom, Whitmer, etc.) have been planting stories in the press promoting themselves for the gig, because it's such a bad situation. I'm sure she'd vastly prefer that Biden stay in and step down in a year to this scenario.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:52 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
I doubt it. She's being put in a very tough spot here. None of the other potential contenders (Newsom, Whitmer, etc.) have been planting stories in the press promoting themselves for the gig, because it's such a bad situation. I'm sure she'd vastly prefer that Biden stay in and step down in a year to this scenario.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:52 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Aside from Newsom being an absolute ghoul who should be nowhere near the reins of national power, this is unconstitutional.
With the Supreme Court moving recently to criminalize homelessness at least Newsom is in touch with the zeitgeist (this is a joke, he's absolutely a ghoul).
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:53 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
With the Supreme Court moving recently to criminalize homelessness at least Newsom is in touch with the zeitgeist (this is a joke, he's absolutely a ghoul).
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:53 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
I'm not anti- Kamala Harris. I'm just not convinced that once she's in the sights- with the exact same record to run on as Biden- that her negatives, perceived and real, are not going to be overcome.
I want my fellow readers to consider, for a moment, why Biden is behind in the polls.
People who are all-in for Trump are voting Trump. People who recognize the danger of Trump are voting D even if Triumph the Insult Comic Dog is the ticket leader. Those are not the people anyone has to convince.
No, the people who need to be convinced are the people who don't see the danger of a Trump administration, who are not moved by Trumpoids' open admissions of what's to come to vote against it, and will be looking at whoever would replace Biden and asking "Why should I vote for you?"
"I'm not Donald Trump" is not sufficient, or this would all be moot because Biden is not Donald Trump. "I will carry on the Biden/Harris legacy" is not sufficient, as lots of people aren't terribly enthused by the Biden/Harris legacy as is, and if Harris is a natural successor, all people would have to do is wait and she'll be in the top spot soon enough. "I will keep things going as they are going now" is not a winner when so many of those people believe the R propaganda and aren't happy.
Will Harris promise to handle Israel/Gaza any differently, and thread the needle somehow between bringing back some lost over Biden's enablement of Bibi and not losing angry Jews in response? Will Harris have the time and opportunity to voice any policy ideas that those swing voters would appreciate? Will the campaign be smart enough to focus on motivating women to come and vote to save themselves rather than continuing to aim the circle of howitzers inward? Are they capable of overcoming the reluctance of some of those not-so-informed, not-so-loyal, not-so-swift voters to vote for a black woman, or for an 11th hour 59th minute second choice, or for someone who was RIGHT THERE next to the 'obviously senile' guy and said nothing for 3.5 years?
This is not Harris-bashing either. No matter who gets the top spot, they will face an insurmountable wall of opposition. This is bashing the relentless drive by some to change the candidate, rather than the messaging, by any means necessary.
posted by delfin at 6:54 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
I want my fellow readers to consider, for a moment, why Biden is behind in the polls.
People who are all-in for Trump are voting Trump. People who recognize the danger of Trump are voting D even if Triumph the Insult Comic Dog is the ticket leader. Those are not the people anyone has to convince.
No, the people who need to be convinced are the people who don't see the danger of a Trump administration, who are not moved by Trumpoids' open admissions of what's to come to vote against it, and will be looking at whoever would replace Biden and asking "Why should I vote for you?"
"I'm not Donald Trump" is not sufficient, or this would all be moot because Biden is not Donald Trump. "I will carry on the Biden/Harris legacy" is not sufficient, as lots of people aren't terribly enthused by the Biden/Harris legacy as is, and if Harris is a natural successor, all people would have to do is wait and she'll be in the top spot soon enough. "I will keep things going as they are going now" is not a winner when so many of those people believe the R propaganda and aren't happy.
Will Harris promise to handle Israel/Gaza any differently, and thread the needle somehow between bringing back some lost over Biden's enablement of Bibi and not losing angry Jews in response? Will Harris have the time and opportunity to voice any policy ideas that those swing voters would appreciate? Will the campaign be smart enough to focus on motivating women to come and vote to save themselves rather than continuing to aim the circle of howitzers inward? Are they capable of overcoming the reluctance of some of those not-so-informed, not-so-loyal, not-so-swift voters to vote for a black woman, or for an 11th hour 59th minute second choice, or for someone who was RIGHT THERE next to the 'obviously senile' guy and said nothing for 3.5 years?
This is not Harris-bashing either. No matter who gets the top spot, they will face an insurmountable wall of opposition. This is bashing the relentless drive by some to change the candidate, rather than the messaging, by any means necessary.
posted by delfin at 6:54 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
so much doomerism here
I think probably history will say Hillary was a bad candidate and Biden was a good candidate until he wasn't a good candidate anymore, and Trump was actually nothing special, just lucked out once in the face of a bad campaign season for the Dems. Most of what he touches turns to shit, electorally. He's shameless enough to make the judicial system really work for him, as it's designed to, which gives him an air of invincibility, but he's a bad candidate and lots of people in the Dem party could beat him. That said, I'm glad Gavin is unlikely to get anywhere near this 2024 ticket .
posted by kensington314 at 6:54 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
I think probably history will say Hillary was a bad candidate and Biden was a good candidate until he wasn't a good candidate anymore, and Trump was actually nothing special, just lucked out once in the face of a bad campaign season for the Dems. Most of what he touches turns to shit, electorally. He's shameless enough to make the judicial system really work for him, as it's designed to, which gives him an air of invincibility, but he's a bad candidate and lots of people in the Dem party could beat him. That said, I'm glad Gavin is unlikely to get anywhere near this 2024 ticket .
posted by kensington314 at 6:54 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
The GOP cannot wait to unleash the lawyers to make sure the Dem candidate does not appear on at least 3 states' ballots.
Can someone holding this view provide some sort of citation that justifies this fear? It would be helpful. My understanding is the Dems have not nominated anyone yet and no state's ballots are yet fixed. Is that incorrect?
posted by kensington314 at 6:57 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
Can someone holding this view provide some sort of citation that justifies this fear? It would be helpful. My understanding is the Dems have not nominated anyone yet and no state's ballots are yet fixed. Is that incorrect?
posted by kensington314 at 6:57 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
Mostly people just don’t think switching candidate is a magic fix and have skepticism as to the mechanics of it working out, coupled with a cynicism towards the donors and media pushing the process.
The way I see it, we were losing. Biden wasn't going to improve. The only hope was that the polls were wrong and most of the country is going to vote against Trump, however they feel about the Democratic candidate. If that is true, it will still be true if we switch candidates.
If it isn't true, then we lose nothing by trying changing candidates. Even if the new candidate loses, that was the most likely outcome anyway. But there are a lot of reasons to think someone without Biden's health issues, without the shadow of Gaza hanging over them, and without the Republican propaganda machine gearing up for them for the last four years might actually do better.
Basically, it isn't much of a gamble if you already don't have anything to lose. And we don't with Biden.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:57 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
The way I see it, we were losing. Biden wasn't going to improve. The only hope was that the polls were wrong and most of the country is going to vote against Trump, however they feel about the Democratic candidate. If that is true, it will still be true if we switch candidates.
If it isn't true, then we lose nothing by trying changing candidates. Even if the new candidate loses, that was the most likely outcome anyway. But there are a lot of reasons to think someone without Biden's health issues, without the shadow of Gaza hanging over them, and without the Republican propaganda machine gearing up for them for the last four years might actually do better.
Basically, it isn't much of a gamble if you already don't have anything to lose. And we don't with Biden.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:57 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Jello Biafra had a great idea. Biden just releases his delegates, have an open convention.
He can either stay in it, withdraw and endorse Harris, lots of options.
posted by butterstick at 7:00 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
He can either stay in it, withdraw and endorse Harris, lots of options.
posted by butterstick at 7:00 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
Basically, it isn't much of a gamble if you already don't have anything to lose. And we don't with Biden.
Or we go from mildly disastrous to massively disastrous.
It’s a huge fucking gamble.
posted by Artw at 7:00 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Or we go from mildly disastrous to massively disastrous.
It’s a huge fucking gamble.
posted by Artw at 7:00 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
We need to stop yapping at other left-leaning folks for not being left enough
The actual leftists I know have issues with any of the likely potential replacements as much as with Biden. The leftists within the Democratic Party (AOC, Sanders, etc.) are all supporting Biden remaining in the race. The NYT and big donors wanting him to drop out rather makes me reevaluate how effective his administration’s policies have been for working people - maybe they were more success at that than I had thought (though, it really doesn’t take much to get the rich folks all upset and out of sorts).
Me, I didn’t want Biden as the candidate in the first place, and yes I’m worried about the election, but I don’t see how changing the candidate up at this point is going to be an improvement and not just make things worse. And yeah, the only feasible replacement would be Harris… so why not just run the election with Biden, he gets sidelined for health reasons in late January, and Harris is president? Like, I also think it seems maybe a bit unlikely that Biden would be able to complete a second term - same for Trump, of course, since he’s also old and in quite likely even worse shape. But if a Dem does get elected, whether that is Harris directly or whether it is Biden and then Harris has to take over the presidency afterwards, it’s the same final outcome. Minus a bunch of unhelpful churn that seems more likely to me to lose the election than Biden being old would, provided the party actually stood behind him as the candidate who won the primaries rather than undermining him at every step. Seriously - for those who think Biden should step down and Harris is the only feasible or the best alternate candidate, why isn’t “stick the election out with the ticket we have, expect the transition we want will soon follow” an option? (Actual question, not rhetorical. Why isn’t that a good campaign message, and get Harris out campaigning more in addition to Biden? Focus on the team, like the Republicans did when Bush II got elected/selected?)
posted by eviemath at 7:01 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
The actual leftists I know have issues with any of the likely potential replacements as much as with Biden. The leftists within the Democratic Party (AOC, Sanders, etc.) are all supporting Biden remaining in the race. The NYT and big donors wanting him to drop out rather makes me reevaluate how effective his administration’s policies have been for working people - maybe they were more success at that than I had thought (though, it really doesn’t take much to get the rich folks all upset and out of sorts).
Me, I didn’t want Biden as the candidate in the first place, and yes I’m worried about the election, but I don’t see how changing the candidate up at this point is going to be an improvement and not just make things worse. And yeah, the only feasible replacement would be Harris… so why not just run the election with Biden, he gets sidelined for health reasons in late January, and Harris is president? Like, I also think it seems maybe a bit unlikely that Biden would be able to complete a second term - same for Trump, of course, since he’s also old and in quite likely even worse shape. But if a Dem does get elected, whether that is Harris directly or whether it is Biden and then Harris has to take over the presidency afterwards, it’s the same final outcome. Minus a bunch of unhelpful churn that seems more likely to me to lose the election than Biden being old would, provided the party actually stood behind him as the candidate who won the primaries rather than undermining him at every step. Seriously - for those who think Biden should step down and Harris is the only feasible or the best alternate candidate, why isn’t “stick the election out with the ticket we have, expect the transition we want will soon follow” an option? (Actual question, not rhetorical. Why isn’t that a good campaign message, and get Harris out campaigning more in addition to Biden? Focus on the team, like the Republicans did when Bush II got elected/selected?)
posted by eviemath at 7:01 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Like, why is the pressure “step down”, with resultant upheaval and chaos and maybe not having the eventual Dem candidate on the ballot in some key battleground states because of Republican state legislatures taking the opportunity to weight the scales further to their side, and not “change your campaign strategy in these ways that polls indicate would help”?
posted by eviemath at 7:04 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:04 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
The media have reported on this because it is major news people are concerned about.
It is a thing people are concerned about, but how many people are concerned about it because of the endless reporting of Debategate? How many people are concerned about it because Axios posts 45 stories a day about the endless line of senior House Democrats "confiding" in anybody who will listen that Biden needs to go because it gets his (and it's mostly hims) name on the national stage by piling on?
The mainstream media's role in this is that of self-fulfilling prophecy, not journalism from the sidelines. This is the Howard Dean scream times, like, a million (and that was broadcast 633 times in four days). Whether you personally think he should drop out of the race or not, and regardless of how long you've thought that, there are many, many people who only think he should because they've been getting that message force-fed from every angle all day long everywhere they look/listen for the last three weeks.
posted by tubedogg at 7:05 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
It is a thing people are concerned about, but how many people are concerned about it because of the endless reporting of Debategate? How many people are concerned about it because Axios posts 45 stories a day about the endless line of senior House Democrats "confiding" in anybody who will listen that Biden needs to go because it gets his (and it's mostly hims) name on the national stage by piling on?
The mainstream media's role in this is that of self-fulfilling prophecy, not journalism from the sidelines. This is the Howard Dean scream times, like, a million (and that was broadcast 633 times in four days). Whether you personally think he should drop out of the race or not, and regardless of how long you've thought that, there are many, many people who only think he should because they've been getting that message force-fed from every angle all day long everywhere they look/listen for the last three weeks.
posted by tubedogg at 7:05 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
I feel like this thread might have been premature. We're mostly (re)arguing in circles and hypotheticals about something that might or might not happen. I'm certainly guilty of this, but it just feels like restirring an already mucky stew.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 7:06 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
posted by UltraMorgnus at 7:06 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Reading the Biden threads around here, and I really feel like I’m going insane, because the man isn’t the Biden of 2020. He’s not even the Biden of 2023. He seems tired and out-of-it. The Biden mock befuddlement “come on man” stuff he’s done for 50 years is now coming across as elderly confusion. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, it’s not fair. But it is what it is, and if we want to stop Trump, we gotta have someone who can debate him. We gotta have someone who can do 18-hour days on the campaign trail.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:06 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 7:06 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
Seriously - for those who think Biden should step down and Harris is the only feasible or the best alternate candidate, why isn’t “stick the election out with the ticket we have, expect the transition we want will soon follow” an option?
Because all available evidence indicates that keeping Biden at the top of the ticket is likely to result in a crushing loss with potentially devastating down-ballot consequences. This is why Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, Obama, reams of Congressional and Senate Democrats, etc have been pressing--whether publicly or privately--for Biden to get out of the race. They're not doing it for fun.
posted by Gadarene at 7:07 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
Because all available evidence indicates that keeping Biden at the top of the ticket is likely to result in a crushing loss with potentially devastating down-ballot consequences. This is why Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, Obama, reams of Congressional and Senate Democrats, etc have been pressing--whether publicly or privately--for Biden to get out of the race. They're not doing it for fun.
posted by Gadarene at 7:07 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
Ilhan Omar on X:
"I can’t tell you all how shameful it feels to hear all these leaks about what Democratic leaders are staying and not to have a single one of them out here confirming or denying it. It’s a lack of leadership and it’s making all Democrats look bad. Whatever this mess leads to will not undo the damage that has already been inflicted. May God help us all."
posted by soundguy99 at 7:07 PM on July 18 [23 favorites]
"I can’t tell you all how shameful it feels to hear all these leaks about what Democratic leaders are staying and not to have a single one of them out here confirming or denying it. It’s a lack of leadership and it’s making all Democrats look bad. Whatever this mess leads to will not undo the damage that has already been inflicted. May God help us all."
posted by soundguy99 at 7:07 PM on July 18 [23 favorites]
We gotta have someone who can do 18-hour days on the campaign trail.
Why though? Trump doesn’t. He has boosters.
posted by eviemath at 7:10 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Why though? Trump doesn’t. He has boosters.
posted by eviemath at 7:10 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Like, why is the pressure “step down”, with resultant upheaval and chaos and maybe not having the eventual Dem candidate on the ballot in some key battleground states because of Republican state legislatures taking the opportunity to weight the scales further to their side, and not “change your campaign strategy in these ways that polls indicate would help”?
What states, specifically, would Harris be in danger of not appearing on the ballot were she the nominee? And what is Biden's path to 270? How does he change his campaign strategy in an effective manner if he simply doesn't have the vigor to campaign effectively?
posted by Gadarene at 7:10 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
What states, specifically, would Harris be in danger of not appearing on the ballot were she the nominee? And what is Biden's path to 270? How does he change his campaign strategy in an effective manner if he simply doesn't have the vigor to campaign effectively?
posted by Gadarene at 7:10 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
Or we go from mildly disastrous to massively disastrous.
A Trump presidency is a disaster either way. Democrats controlling part of congress might slow him down a little, but there will still be fatal harm done.
It is hard for me to imagine Joe Biden is bringing a lot of people out to vote down ballot. But even if he were, an option that stands a chance of actually avoiding a Trump presidency is preferable to one that all but guarantees a close loss.
Like, why is the pressure “step down”, with resultant upheaval and chaos and maybe not having the eventual Dem candidate on the ballot in some key battleground states because of Republican state legislatures taking the opportunity to weight the scales further to their side, and not “change your campaign strategy in these ways that polls indicate would help”?
As long as people are being asked to vote for Biden, Biden's performance is going to be central to the campaign. Nobody wants to campaign for Biden on the grounds he'll be dead or incapacitated soon. And a vigorous campaign requires a candidate capable of campaigning. Biden was looking worse and worse. Slurring his speech, losing track of his words. And now that he has a covid infection, he is going to be even less available to try to govern and campaign at the same time.
Rationally it makes sense that if you think Harris is a good enough candidate, you should be okay with voting for Biden. But I don't think that is how it really works. After all, rationally no one but devoted fascists and neoliberal ghouls should be voting on any grounds but defeating Trump.
It is a thing people are concerned about, but how many people are concerned about it because of the endless reporting of Debategate?
I can't say exactly how it would look in a counterfactual world where the media just ignored the issue. But I can tell you that people I know were talking about Biden stepping down during the debate. I don't think that was a moment Biden could possibly have come back from. It did permanent damage to him as a candidate.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:13 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
A Trump presidency is a disaster either way. Democrats controlling part of congress might slow him down a little, but there will still be fatal harm done.
It is hard for me to imagine Joe Biden is bringing a lot of people out to vote down ballot. But even if he were, an option that stands a chance of actually avoiding a Trump presidency is preferable to one that all but guarantees a close loss.
Like, why is the pressure “step down”, with resultant upheaval and chaos and maybe not having the eventual Dem candidate on the ballot in some key battleground states because of Republican state legislatures taking the opportunity to weight the scales further to their side, and not “change your campaign strategy in these ways that polls indicate would help”?
As long as people are being asked to vote for Biden, Biden's performance is going to be central to the campaign. Nobody wants to campaign for Biden on the grounds he'll be dead or incapacitated soon. And a vigorous campaign requires a candidate capable of campaigning. Biden was looking worse and worse. Slurring his speech, losing track of his words. And now that he has a covid infection, he is going to be even less available to try to govern and campaign at the same time.
Rationally it makes sense that if you think Harris is a good enough candidate, you should be okay with voting for Biden. But I don't think that is how it really works. After all, rationally no one but devoted fascists and neoliberal ghouls should be voting on any grounds but defeating Trump.
It is a thing people are concerned about, but how many people are concerned about it because of the endless reporting of Debategate?
I can't say exactly how it would look in a counterfactual world where the media just ignored the issue. But I can tell you that people I know were talking about Biden stepping down during the debate. I don't think that was a moment Biden could possibly have come back from. It did permanent damage to him as a candidate.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:13 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
Look, to believe that sticking with Biden is a better option than taking a swing with Kamala is to dispute the validity of all of the current polling in all of the battleground states, up to and including the latest polls where if you replace Biden with "Younger Democrat," Trump loses badly in Wisconsin, Michigan, etc.
All paths have risk. Staying the course if the car is hurtling off a cliff is the riskiest of all. Sure, maybe we'll land on a giant eagle who will carry us to safety. But wouldn't it be better to try, like, turning the wheel instead?
posted by Gadarene at 7:14 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
All paths have risk. Staying the course if the car is hurtling off a cliff is the riskiest of all. Sure, maybe we'll land on a giant eagle who will carry us to safety. But wouldn't it be better to try, like, turning the wheel instead?
posted by Gadarene at 7:14 PM on July 18 [12 favorites]
why isn’t “stick the election out with the ticket we have, expect the transition we want will soon follow” an option?
Because that's impossible to be excited for, and we live or die by voter turnout? "We promise he'll leave" is not the message you want to hear about a candidate
posted by knuckle tattoos at 7:16 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
Because that's impossible to be excited for, and we live or die by voter turnout? "We promise he'll leave" is not the message you want to hear about a candidate
posted by knuckle tattoos at 7:16 PM on July 18 [17 favorites]
Why though? Trump doesn’t. He has boosters.
Trump is the leader of a cult of personality, that’s why.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:17 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
Trump is the leader of a cult of personality, that’s why.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:17 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
Trump ended his days the entire time he was in office some time in the mid afternoon, as I recall from reporting on his daily schedule. He definitely has less energy later in the day. He definitely can’t do 18 hours days, and has not been able to since the beginning of his term as president eight years ago. How many campaign appearances does Trump make in a week? Why are we only talking about Biden’s vigor?
I mean, I agree that Biden should not have run in the first place! But all of the criticisms being levelled at him also apply to Trump. It’s the one-sidedness of the reporting and focus that makes me and from what I’ve read some others as well quite suspicious of the push to oust Biden at this particular moment in the campaign.
Meanwhile, focusing on the candidate rather than the team or other messaging (as delfin described), does require a certain type of candidate, yeah. So if that’s not the candidate you have, run the campaign differently. Why is running the campaign differently out of the question? Isn’t polling also showing that voters are more concerned with issues this election?
posted by eviemath at 7:20 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
I mean, I agree that Biden should not have run in the first place! But all of the criticisms being levelled at him also apply to Trump. It’s the one-sidedness of the reporting and focus that makes me and from what I’ve read some others as well quite suspicious of the push to oust Biden at this particular moment in the campaign.
Meanwhile, focusing on the candidate rather than the team or other messaging (as delfin described), does require a certain type of candidate, yeah. So if that’s not the candidate you have, run the campaign differently. Why is running the campaign differently out of the question? Isn’t polling also showing that voters are more concerned with issues this election?
posted by eviemath at 7:20 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
There’s a certain irony to pulling out “COVID? That’s a serious medical issue!” for a man who has done more than maybe only one other individual to spread the idea that it’s fine and you should just head back to work.
I mean, if COVID is a serious medical issue, then it's a serious medical issue for people regardless of who they are. Stating that getting COVID multiple times increases the likelihood of serious medical consequences isn't pulling it out for anyone. I explicitly wasn't saying boo about if Biden should or shouldn't drop out, just that the idea that COVID is more manageable for repeat infections may be true for some people, but not for everyone.
Maybe it's the fact that the combination of my Long COVID and the terrible air quality is so bad I'm having trouble working up the energy to get up to walk across the room to go watch TV, but I'm done with folks thinking this shit is a tool to use to score rhetorical points. I just don't have it in me to care about irony.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:21 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
I mean, if COVID is a serious medical issue, then it's a serious medical issue for people regardless of who they are. Stating that getting COVID multiple times increases the likelihood of serious medical consequences isn't pulling it out for anyone. I explicitly wasn't saying boo about if Biden should or shouldn't drop out, just that the idea that COVID is more manageable for repeat infections may be true for some people, but not for everyone.
Maybe it's the fact that the combination of my Long COVID and the terrible air quality is so bad I'm having trouble working up the energy to get up to walk across the room to go watch TV, but I'm done with folks thinking this shit is a tool to use to score rhetorical points. I just don't have it in me to care about irony.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:21 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
US Senator Jon Tester (D-MT) calls on Biden to drop out of presidential race - link
posted by davidmsc at 7:24 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
posted by davidmsc at 7:24 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
"We need to stop yapping at other left-leaning folks for not being left enough"
There's also all the people like me who aren't on the left but are highly motivated to defeat Trump because we recognize that he's an existential threat to our institutions, and we know that the damage that he and his cult will do could take decades to repair.
Y'all could get a lot of help from libertarians and actual conservatives (as in what "conservative" used to mean, e.g., George Will types) if you would just get your shit together. Many of us are already on board with "defeat Trump now, bicker about tax policy later" but have received zero contact from the Democrats attempting to mobilize us to help. Hell, I just spent 30 minutes trying to mobilize myself but hit a bunch of dead ends.
As an outsider, it seems all the Dems want is money and any attempt to help in other ways is locked behind multiple levels of gatekeeping.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:26 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
There's also all the people like me who aren't on the left but are highly motivated to defeat Trump because we recognize that he's an existential threat to our institutions, and we know that the damage that he and his cult will do could take decades to repair.
Y'all could get a lot of help from libertarians and actual conservatives (as in what "conservative" used to mean, e.g., George Will types) if you would just get your shit together. Many of us are already on board with "defeat Trump now, bicker about tax policy later" but have received zero contact from the Democrats attempting to mobilize us to help. Hell, I just spent 30 minutes trying to mobilize myself but hit a bunch of dead ends.
As an outsider, it seems all the Dems want is money and any attempt to help in other ways is locked behind multiple levels of gatekeeping.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:26 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
eviemath, wishing reality were not the way it was is not a winning strategy. Is the Biden reporting, at least in part, coming from a place of bias? Absolutely! But it’s also true that Biden seems weak and out-of-it. Trump… doesn’t. No one is talking about Trump’s “vigor” because there’s nothing to talk about. Yeah, I’m sure that his bombast is all a Potemkin performance and he’s taking midday naps, sitting around watching television, and going to bed at 9pm, but I don’t see any of that and neither does any voter.
There’s this weird undercurrent where we all wish the world were fairer, that voters were perfectly rational actors carefully weighing policy records, but we don’t live in that world, and we probably never will.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:26 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
There’s this weird undercurrent where we all wish the world were fairer, that voters were perfectly rational actors carefully weighing policy records, but we don’t live in that world, and we probably never will.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:26 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
US Senator Jon Tester (D-MT) calls on Biden to drop out of presidential race - link
That one is a direct statement from Jon Tester and not a “sources say” like most of these, FWIW.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
That one is a direct statement from Jon Tester and not a “sources say” like most of these, FWIW.
posted by Artw at 7:26 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
>"We promise he'll leave" is not the message you want to hear about a candidate
"We realize the election is in a few weeks, and we'll get back to you as soon as we figure out who our candidate is" is not good messaging either. It is in fact disastrously bad.
>to believe that sticking with Biden is a better option than taking a swing with Kamala is to dispute the validity of all of the current polling
"With few exceptions, the final round of public polling showed Clinton with a lead of 1 to 7 percentage points in the national popular vote."
Do you believe you live in an America where more people want a young, (arguably) progressive woman of color to be President than want Donald Trump? I don't. I wish I did. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:27 PM on July 18
"We realize the election is in a few weeks, and we'll get back to you as soon as we figure out who our candidate is" is not good messaging either. It is in fact disastrously bad.
>to believe that sticking with Biden is a better option than taking a swing with Kamala is to dispute the validity of all of the current polling
"With few exceptions, the final round of public polling showed Clinton with a lead of 1 to 7 percentage points in the national popular vote."
Do you believe you live in an America where more people want a young, (arguably) progressive woman of color to be President than want Donald Trump? I don't. I wish I did. I hope I'm wrong.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:27 PM on July 18
People keep bringing up the left wing of the Democratic Party sticking with Biden and I think it’s simple politics. They’ll get punched at if Biden looses no mater what. This gives them an opportunity to stick with the party while poking at their leadership in congress. Them coming out swinging at Biden gives him a target to punch left at and accomplishes nothing.
posted by Uncle at 7:28 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
posted by Uncle at 7:28 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
Y'all could get a lot of help from libertarians and actual conservatives (as in what conservative used to mean, e.g., George Will types) if you would just get your shit together.
If you were any use you’d be doing it already and not putting in weird conditionals.
posted by Artw at 7:29 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
If you were any use you’d be doing it already and not putting in weird conditionals.
posted by Artw at 7:29 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Why are we only talking about Biden’s vigor?
Because we are trying to decide who is the best candidate to oppose Trump. Supporting Trump is not under consideration. We just had a large thread where people argued over whether it was okay or not to openly support Trump's assassination. He is not somehow escaping condemnation. Trump is lazy, senile, venial, vindictive, probably the owner of several cluster b personality disorders, a racist, and a landlord. Nobody thinks Trump is more qualified. A sack of moldy onions is a better candidate than Trump. But that doesn't matter to his cult of personality. So we need a candidate able to get out the votes to beat him.
Y'all could get a lot of help from libertarians and actual conservatives (as in what conservative used to mean, e.g., George Will types) if you would just get your shit together.
No we couldn't. That is always the claim, that if we just made the correct overtures, the right would come in and support reason and good government. And inevitably the libertarians and "classic liberals" lineup behind the fascists. If you want to beat Trump, the obvious answer is to support the Democrats. If anarchists and SocDems can hold their noses and vote for Clinton and Biden, anybody who is really moved to stop Trump can do so, too.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:30 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
Because we are trying to decide who is the best candidate to oppose Trump. Supporting Trump is not under consideration. We just had a large thread where people argued over whether it was okay or not to openly support Trump's assassination. He is not somehow escaping condemnation. Trump is lazy, senile, venial, vindictive, probably the owner of several cluster b personality disorders, a racist, and a landlord. Nobody thinks Trump is more qualified. A sack of moldy onions is a better candidate than Trump. But that doesn't matter to his cult of personality. So we need a candidate able to get out the votes to beat him.
Y'all could get a lot of help from libertarians and actual conservatives (as in what conservative used to mean, e.g., George Will types) if you would just get your shit together.
No we couldn't. That is always the claim, that if we just made the correct overtures, the right would come in and support reason and good government. And inevitably the libertarians and "classic liberals" lineup behind the fascists. If you want to beat Trump, the obvious answer is to support the Democrats. If anarchists and SocDems can hold their noses and vote for Clinton and Biden, anybody who is really moved to stop Trump can do so, too.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:30 PM on July 18 [20 favorites]
"Biden seems weak and out-of-it. Trump… doesn’t. No one is talking about Trump’s “vigor” because there’s nothing to talk about."
I feel like I'm reading comments made from an alternate universe. Trump keeps literally falling asleep in public. And many people have reported that lately he smells like he's been pissing and shitting himself. Meanwhile, his speeches have always been incoherent dementia babbling.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:32 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
I feel like I'm reading comments made from an alternate universe. Trump keeps literally falling asleep in public. And many people have reported that lately he smells like he's been pissing and shitting himself. Meanwhile, his speeches have always been incoherent dementia babbling.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:32 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
"We realize the election is in a few weeks, and we'll get back to you as soon as we figure out who our candidate is" is not good messaging either. It is in fact disastrously bad.
The election is in three and a half months, and wait until I tell you how long other countries take to do their elections
It'll blow your mind
posted by Gadarene at 7:33 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
The election is in three and a half months, and wait until I tell you how long other countries take to do their elections
It'll blow your mind
posted by Gadarene at 7:33 PM on July 18 [15 favorites]
Trump is the leader of a cult of personality, that’s why.
I mean, yes, but that happened because he had boosters - powerful and influential ones who owned media empires, Cambridge Analytica, and a highly sophisticated post-Cold War empire level mis- and dis-information network, albeit - not because he had the energy and wherewithal to campaign vigorously.
No one is taking about Trump’s lack of vigor because that hasn’t been a major story created and pushed by the NYT and it’s also not the Biden campaign strategy. Meanwhile painting Biden as old and infirm has been part of the Trump campaign strategy. I think the major problem (which is why I didn’t want Biden in the first place) is that the Dems are relying on an outdated strategy that lost against Trump two elections ago, and only didn’t lose against Trump last election because people were more immediately scared due to Trump currently being in power at the time. I think that what is needed is a change in strategy. It doesn’t seem to me that changing the candidate will do anything more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic (to borrow a phrase from Utah Phillips) in the absence of a change in strategy. Expecting a different candidate who can do the same things just more vigorously to somehow be more successful against Trump is the thing that seems to me to be the unrealistic wishful thinking.
posted by eviemath at 7:33 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
I mean, yes, but that happened because he had boosters - powerful and influential ones who owned media empires, Cambridge Analytica, and a highly sophisticated post-Cold War empire level mis- and dis-information network, albeit - not because he had the energy and wherewithal to campaign vigorously.
No one is taking about Trump’s lack of vigor because that hasn’t been a major story created and pushed by the NYT and it’s also not the Biden campaign strategy. Meanwhile painting Biden as old and infirm has been part of the Trump campaign strategy. I think the major problem (which is why I didn’t want Biden in the first place) is that the Dems are relying on an outdated strategy that lost against Trump two elections ago, and only didn’t lose against Trump last election because people were more immediately scared due to Trump currently being in power at the time. I think that what is needed is a change in strategy. It doesn’t seem to me that changing the candidate will do anything more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic (to borrow a phrase from Utah Phillips) in the absence of a change in strategy. Expecting a different candidate who can do the same things just more vigorously to somehow be more successful against Trump is the thing that seems to me to be the unrealistic wishful thinking.
posted by eviemath at 7:33 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
where if you replace Biden with "Younger Democrat," Trump loses badly in Wisconsin, Michigan, etc
Sure, lots of people are willing to take a swing on a hypothetical. But once this "younger democrat" is the nominee the same media and pundits saying Biden needs to give up the seat are not going to treat any new candidate with kid gloves because their wish came true. Their job is eyeballs on their page, not making sure we don't have a fascist regime installed.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:34 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Sure, lots of people are willing to take a swing on a hypothetical. But once this "younger democrat" is the nominee the same media and pundits saying Biden needs to give up the seat are not going to treat any new candidate with kid gloves because their wish came true. Their job is eyeballs on their page, not making sure we don't have a fascist regime installed.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:34 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
I wasn't joking about the "Younger Democrat" thing, by the way. It's pretty remarkable.
posted by Gadarene at 7:35 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 7:35 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Sure, lots of people are willing to take a swing on a hypothetical. But once this "younger democrat" is the nominee the same media and pundits saying Biden needs to give up the seat are not going to treat any new candidate with kid gloves because their wish came true. Their job is eyeballs on their page, not making sure we don't have a fascist regime installed.
Guess we should just give up, then!
posted by Gadarene at 7:35 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Guess we should just give up, then!
posted by Gadarene at 7:35 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Anyway, probably a much more useful thing to do, rather than all of us arguing fruitlessly about something that is apparently going to be decided for us undemocratically by party elites (yay for saving democracy?), is to be damn sure that we have fully Democrat controlled House and Senate, so that, if Trump does gain power, he can be impeached and removed as soon as he abuses that power, and so that Vance can subsequently be impeached and removed as soon as he, in turn, abuses the presidential power. That is our last institutional line of defense.
posted by eviemath at 7:37 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:37 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
> his bombast is all a Potemkin performance
i don’t actually have a response to this statement i’m just replying because i like the phrase
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:37 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
i don’t actually have a response to this statement i’m just replying because i like the phrase
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:37 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
What is Younger Democrat’s stance on genocide in Gaza?
posted by Artw at 7:38 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:38 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
I wasn't joking about the "Younger Democrat" thing, by the way. It's pretty remarkable.
Support for any given specific “Younger Democrat” can be very different from support for the general idea, unfortunately. Otherwise I would be totally on board with you, sure.
posted by eviemath at 7:38 PM on July 18
Support for any given specific “Younger Democrat” can be very different from support for the general idea, unfortunately. Otherwise I would be totally on board with you, sure.
posted by eviemath at 7:38 PM on July 18
That is our last institutional line of defense.
Your institutions will not save you.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:39 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Your institutions will not save you.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:39 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
What is Younger Democrat’s stance on genocide in Gaza?
Could it possibly be worse than Trump or Biden's?
posted by pattern juggler at 7:39 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Could it possibly be worse than Trump or Biden's?
posted by pattern juggler at 7:39 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
What is Younger Democrat’s stance on genocide in Gaza?
Probably the same stance as whomever was being polled. Hence the problem, yeah.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 7:39 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
Probably the same stance as whomever was being polled. Hence the problem, yeah.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 7:39 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
Could it possibly be worse than Trump or Biden's?
Predicting right now it will be exactly the same.
posted by Artw at 7:39 PM on July 18
Predicting right now it will be exactly the same.
posted by Artw at 7:39 PM on July 18
The more abstract the poll, the less applicable it is to real life . . .
posted by pt68 at 7:40 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
posted by pt68 at 7:40 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
For all the needle enjoyers out there: isitjoever.com
posted by Rhaomi at 7:41 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:41 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
The point is, who knows why dumbass motherfuckers vote for Trump, really. He's been endorsed by Amber Rose, Kid Rock and Hulk Hogan, three of the most useless human beings ever to appear on Earth. And those are his superstar endorsements! Voting Trump is the political equivalent of eating Tide Pods. Why do people do it? I don't know, but for our purposes it doesn't matter, because we aren't talking about Trump voters.
Democratic voters are a whole other thing. The democratic party has long gambled that any asshole they ran would beat Trump just by not being Trump. So far, this has proven to be true exactly half the time. Those are weak odds. And republican devotion to Trump has only gotten stronger, as support for Biden has gotten weaker. No democratic voter will ever vote for Trump; that's not the problem. The problem is a democratic voter too disgusted to vote.
I've been hearing "Vote Blue No Matter Who" for a lot of years. If the people who said it meant it, they'll vote for Kamala Harris. If they didn't mean it, they shouldn't've said it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:41 PM on July 18 [19 favorites]
Democratic voters are a whole other thing. The democratic party has long gambled that any asshole they ran would beat Trump just by not being Trump. So far, this has proven to be true exactly half the time. Those are weak odds. And republican devotion to Trump has only gotten stronger, as support for Biden has gotten weaker. No democratic voter will ever vote for Trump; that's not the problem. The problem is a democratic voter too disgusted to vote.
I've been hearing "Vote Blue No Matter Who" for a lot of years. If the people who said it meant it, they'll vote for Kamala Harris. If they didn't mean it, they shouldn't've said it.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:41 PM on July 18 [19 favorites]
Certainly a "younger unicorn" or "younger magic leprechaun" would be as instructive of a thing to poll, since we cannot actually install as president the concept of a younger Democrat so much as an actual specific person.
posted by axiom at 7:43 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
posted by axiom at 7:43 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Could it possibly be worse than Trump or Biden's?
Yep, sure could. There are unfortunately Democrats, some of them younger than 80 even, who seem to believe everything that Netanyahu says and are much more in favor of suppressing campus protests or criminalizing the BDS movement in the US. :/
posted by eviemath at 7:44 PM on July 18
Yep, sure could. There are unfortunately Democrats, some of them younger than 80 even, who seem to believe everything that Netanyahu says and are much more in favor of suppressing campus protests or criminalizing the BDS movement in the US. :/
posted by eviemath at 7:44 PM on July 18
Yep, sure could. There are unfortunately Democrats, some of them younger than 80 even, who seem to believe everything that Netanyahu says and are much more in favor of suppressing campus protests or criminalizing the BDS movement in the US. :/
Is that meaningfully different from Trump's position?
posted by pattern juggler at 7:50 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Is that meaningfully different from Trump's position?
posted by pattern juggler at 7:50 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
I am very much a "look I didn't vote for him but Biden won the primary so he's our candidate" person and it really REALLY bothers me that my party is letting the press pull a Claudine Gay "look we're just reporting the facts, it's just EVERYONE is asking these questions off the record!!!" on my party's nominee, but honestly I just want this press cycle of "the Democrats are so incompetent and afraid of power they can't get it together to nominate someone who isn't on death's doorstep" to be over. I will literally vote for anyone who has a chance of beating Trump. I'll vote for Biden. I'll vote for Harris. I'll vote for a golden retriever with a (D) by his name. Just everyone get the fuck behind someone and let's move on.
It seems pretty clear to me that every single person with a net worth over about $10m in this country has decided Trump is their guy for what I guess are tax reasons and they're just trying to ratfuck anyone who stands against him. So it's just going to be some other fake fucking scandal about the next nominee but at least hopefully everyone else in the party will be too embarrassed to try and replace the next person.
I'm just deeply disgusted with the Democrats. I'll still vote for them because look at the alternative but holy shit. Do better. Dude was old in primary season too and that was the time to ask these questions. The party has got to clean house.
posted by potrzebie at 7:50 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
It seems pretty clear to me that every single person with a net worth over about $10m in this country has decided Trump is their guy for what I guess are tax reasons and they're just trying to ratfuck anyone who stands against him. So it's just going to be some other fake fucking scandal about the next nominee but at least hopefully everyone else in the party will be too embarrassed to try and replace the next person.
I'm just deeply disgusted with the Democrats. I'll still vote for them because look at the alternative but holy shit. Do better. Dude was old in primary season too and that was the time to ask these questions. The party has got to clean house.
posted by potrzebie at 7:50 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
"That is always the claim, that if we just made the correct overtures, the right would come in and support reason and good government. And inevitably the libertarians and "classic liberals" lineup behind the fascists. If you want to beat Trump, the obvious answer is to support the Democrats. If anarchists and SocDems can hold their noses and vote for Clinton and Biden, anybody who is really moved to stop Trump can do so, too."
~90% of my Facebook friends list is libertarians and most of us ARE voting Biden. There's been a mass exodus from the Libertarian Party since the Mises Caucus takeover in 2022, and most of that exodus is on board with prioritizing defeating Trump now and worrying about our differences with the Dems later.
When I say "get your shit together," I'm not asking you to change your party's ideology, platform, or messaging, I'm just asking you to streamline your volunteer intake process better. Because right now all I can find is paid campaign positions (I know y'all are not going to hire anyone who isn't one of the party faithful for those) or redirects to donation pages.
I could click buttons on Hustle all day FOR FREE to send your scripted messages to swing-state voters, but y'all seemed determined to make it impossible for anyone not already deeply involved in the party to do anything to help except give money. Which is dumb, because an effective supporter identification and get out of the vote campaign requires a tremendous amount of volunteer labor to pull off. And it seems all y'all are too busy fighting amongst yourselves to spend much time volunteering, so perhaps it's time to bring in outsiders who don't have a dog in your internal party fights and just want to get shit done.
Obama had an incredibly well-organized streamlined volunteer intake process for their GOTV campaign in 2008 but y'all seem to have forgotten those skills since then.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:51 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
~90% of my Facebook friends list is libertarians and most of us ARE voting Biden. There's been a mass exodus from the Libertarian Party since the Mises Caucus takeover in 2022, and most of that exodus is on board with prioritizing defeating Trump now and worrying about our differences with the Dems later.
When I say "get your shit together," I'm not asking you to change your party's ideology, platform, or messaging, I'm just asking you to streamline your volunteer intake process better. Because right now all I can find is paid campaign positions (I know y'all are not going to hire anyone who isn't one of the party faithful for those) or redirects to donation pages.
I could click buttons on Hustle all day FOR FREE to send your scripted messages to swing-state voters, but y'all seemed determined to make it impossible for anyone not already deeply involved in the party to do anything to help except give money. Which is dumb, because an effective supporter identification and get out of the vote campaign requires a tremendous amount of volunteer labor to pull off. And it seems all y'all are too busy fighting amongst yourselves to spend much time volunteering, so perhaps it's time to bring in outsiders who don't have a dog in your internal party fights and just want to get shit done.
Obama had an incredibly well-organized streamlined volunteer intake process for their GOTV campaign in 2008 but y'all seem to have forgotten those skills since then.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:51 PM on July 18 [14 favorites]
Harris has NOT been invisible: she and her staff have regularly posted her activities as VP on her social media since she took office.
posted by brujita at 7:51 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
posted by brujita at 7:51 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
The democratic party has long gambled that any asshole they ran would beat Trump just by not being Trump. So far, this has proven to be true exactly half the time. Those are weak odds. And republican devotion to Trump has only gotten stronger, as support for Biden has gotten weaker. No democratic voter will ever vote for Trump; that's not the problem. The problem is a democratic voter too disgusted to vote.
Oh, for sure. I just don’t see that problem changing with Harris. Well, maybe you would sub out some “too disgusted” for some other “too racist or sexist even though they don’t want to admit that or be called out on it”. But hey, I’ll stop getting my pessimism all over your rosy optimism that switching out a person within the same campaign strategy and messaging and policy proposals will make the deciding difference. We all need some little bits of hope right now, I suppose.
(You know what would likely give Biden a boost, regardless of his energy levels? A negotiated end to the Palestinian genocide or at least a longer cease fire. That was about when his numbers dropped, if I recall correctly.)
posted by eviemath at 7:52 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Oh, for sure. I just don’t see that problem changing with Harris. Well, maybe you would sub out some “too disgusted” for some other “too racist or sexist even though they don’t want to admit that or be called out on it”. But hey, I’ll stop getting my pessimism all over your rosy optimism that switching out a person within the same campaign strategy and messaging and policy proposals will make the deciding difference. We all need some little bits of hope right now, I suppose.
(You know what would likely give Biden a boost, regardless of his energy levels? A negotiated end to the Palestinian genocide or at least a longer cease fire. That was about when his numbers dropped, if I recall correctly.)
posted by eviemath at 7:52 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Harris has NOT been invisible: she and her staff have regularly posted her activities as VP on her social media since she took office.
But I’m told it only counts if you’re out in the streets campaigning 18 hours a day?
/s
posted by eviemath at 7:53 PM on July 18
But I’m told it only counts if you’re out in the streets campaigning 18 hours a day?
/s
posted by eviemath at 7:53 PM on July 18
When I say "get your shit together," I'm not asking you to change your party's ideology, platform, or messaging, I'm just asking you to streamline your volunteer intake process better.
Oh yeah, the Dem's suck at that. I tried to volunteer for HRC's campaign and was told the only opportunity involved a 200 mile one way commute. When I explained that wasn't possible they asked for a donation instead.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:54 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Oh yeah, the Dem's suck at that. I tried to volunteer for HRC's campaign and was told the only opportunity involved a 200 mile one way commute. When I explained that wasn't possible they asked for a donation instead.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:54 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
> Instead of focusing on Trump falling asleep at the RNC
Yeah, with all the gibberish and nonsense Trump has certainly been spewing at his rallies, and things like this little nappy-poo incident, the press could easily be having the exact same conversation about Trump that it is currently having about Biden.
Yet it isn't. Why not?
In addition, the press could be having the conversation about how Trump is absolutely fucking nutso at least 20 times a day.
Yet it isn't. Why not?
In other news, when Obama was elected, the entire population* of Missouri went absolutely berzerk. I can only imagine how it will go when Harris is elected. It will be like berzerk to the 50th power.
Makes me kind of hope for that outcome, just to see it.
(*"entire population" - true to a first approximation only. I'm sure there were some people out there who weren't absolute racist nutters - probably a whole lot of them in fact. But it surely brought an amazing contingent of racist nutters out of the woodwork.)
posted by flug at 7:57 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Yeah, with all the gibberish and nonsense Trump has certainly been spewing at his rallies, and things like this little nappy-poo incident, the press could easily be having the exact same conversation about Trump that it is currently having about Biden.
Yet it isn't. Why not?
In addition, the press could be having the conversation about how Trump is absolutely fucking nutso at least 20 times a day.
Yet it isn't. Why not?
In other news, when Obama was elected, the entire population* of Missouri went absolutely berzerk. I can only imagine how it will go when Harris is elected. It will be like berzerk to the 50th power.
Makes me kind of hope for that outcome, just to see it.
(*"entire population" - true to a first approximation only. I'm sure there were some people out there who weren't absolute racist nutters - probably a whole lot of them in fact. But it surely brought an amazing contingent of racist nutters out of the woodwork.)
posted by flug at 7:57 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Oh, yeah.
All these donors who are supposedly holding back their money until Biden drops out: I suppose that as soon as he drops out and we have a replacement, they're all going to drop their billions right back into the race. Immediately.
Right?
I'll be right here waiting for that . . .
posted by flug at 8:00 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
All these donors who are supposedly holding back their money until Biden drops out: I suppose that as soon as he drops out and we have a replacement, they're all going to drop their billions right back into the race. Immediately.
Right?
I'll be right here waiting for that . . .
posted by flug at 8:00 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
My mother (who, unlike me, lives in the US still) has been doing a lot of on the ground volunteering, but just through individual campaigns, not through any official Democratic Party organization. That, and third party get out the vote groups, seems to be where the effective work is going to happen that will pull off a Dem win if possible.
That also has the side benefit of helping the House and Senate (and state and local level) races that will be absolutely crucial to win regardless of who becomes president, if we want to deal with the broken Supreme Court or anything else.
posted by eviemath at 8:00 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
That also has the side benefit of helping the House and Senate (and state and local level) races that will be absolutely crucial to win regardless of who becomes president, if we want to deal with the broken Supreme Court or anything else.
posted by eviemath at 8:00 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Racism didn't hurt Obama. I'm not even going to go there and question whether sexism hurt Hillary Clinton; I'm sure it did, but I'm not convinced it's why she lost. Do I think a Black woman can win the presidency? I absolutely do, but I will admit that if that Black woman happens to be Kamala Harris, it might be for the best that she'd be running from within the honeymoon period of her presidency. There are definitely issues that leftist voters will have with her, and they could expand into serious problems over the course of her first elected term in office. We can cross that bridge after we defeat Trump.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:01 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:01 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
It is not lost on me that this new wave of “Biden must go!” started after he announced a plan for national rent control.
What galls me is that when I read these off-the-record “Biden must go!” things, they are often joined with an “and Harris too!” So who the hell do they want as a nominee then? No answer. It’s gonna be Marc Cuban, isn’t it.
posted by rednikki at 8:02 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
What galls me is that when I read these off-the-record “Biden must go!” things, they are often joined with an “and Harris too!” So who the hell do they want as a nominee then? No answer. It’s gonna be Marc Cuban, isn’t it.
posted by rednikki at 8:02 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
To me, the "Younger Democrat" thing indicates that, were a younger Democrat than Biden in fact to become the Democratic nominee, their electoral ceiling would be higher than whatever they're currently polling, and certainly higher than Biden himself, to a Democratic electorate that has repeatedly and increasingly signaled concerns about Biden's advanced age.
But, sure, unicorn.
posted by Gadarene at 8:04 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
But, sure, unicorn.
posted by Gadarene at 8:04 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
What galls me is that when I read these off-the-record “Biden must go!” things, they are often joined with an “and Harris too!”
I'm going to have to ask for a cite for that, because that doesn't match my recollection of any of the reported off-the-record concerns by elected Democrats, whether Pelosi or Schumer or Obama or Jamie Raskin or the forty-some Democratic senators that didn't raise their hand when Fetterman asked them if they supported Biden as the nominee going forward or anyone else.
Who is out there supposedly saying that Biden must go and Harris too?
posted by Gadarene at 8:06 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
I'm going to have to ask for a cite for that, because that doesn't match my recollection of any of the reported off-the-record concerns by elected Democrats, whether Pelosi or Schumer or Obama or Jamie Raskin or the forty-some Democratic senators that didn't raise their hand when Fetterman asked them if they supported Biden as the nominee going forward or anyone else.
Who is out there supposedly saying that Biden must go and Harris too?
posted by Gadarene at 8:06 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
Sure, lots of people are willing to take a swing on a hypothetical. But once this "younger democrat" is the nominee the same media and pundits saying Biden needs to give up the seat are not going to treat any new candidate with kid gloves because their wish came true. Their job is eyeballs on their page, not making sure we don't have a fascist regime installed.
Guess we should just give up, then!
Good thing I didn't say that, did I?
posted by oneirodynia at 8:08 PM on July 18
Guess we should just give up, then!
Good thing I didn't say that, did I?
posted by oneirodynia at 8:08 PM on July 18
Damn I need a Younger Democrat 2024 sticker for my car
posted by catcafe at 8:15 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
posted by catcafe at 8:15 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
"Oh yeah, the Dem's suck at that. I tried to volunteer for HRC's campaign and was told the only opportunity involved a 200 mile one way commute. When I explained that wasn't possible they asked for a donation instead."
Oh my god this is so frustrating. How is it that the Libertarian Party is better at volunteer recruitment and mobilization than the Democrats with all your resources???
If someone wanted to volunteer and I didn't have anything for them to do then I WOULD MAKE UP SOMETHING FOR THEM TO DO. I wouldn't tell them there was nothing within 200 miles. People volunteer because they have a chunk of free time in their life they want to fill, and if you don't fill it for them then they go fill it with something else and will no longer be available when you need them.
The Republicans know this and keep their supporters doing shit year-round. That's how they're always able to turn out large crowds of crazies to scream at school board meetings etc. They have multiple organizations, e.g. the Leadership Institute, Americans for Prosperity, etc. to keep people busy with either training or low-stakes makework activism in between elections because they know that the personal relationships people build are what keep them committed and motivated during campaign season. They even have people whose entire job is to take two people who don't know each other out to coffee and introduce them and then set them up to do stuff together. They consider matchmaking new friends to be a critical part of volunteer management.
And I know all this insider stuff about how they operate because the Republican-affiliated organizations make their activist training available for cheap or even free, whereas the Democrat-affiliated trainings always cost way too much for me to attend. (Libertarians couldn't afford to put on much in the way of our own training so we usually just crashed other parties' things, which they were generally fine with because having occasional outsiders in the classes helped them justify their tax status as nonpartisan educational organizations.)
Looking at the dysfunction of the Democratic Party from the perspective of 20+ years of Libertarian Party activism is infuriating. The things I could have done with your resources and with the majority of the population already on your side. Why can't all y'all just get your shit together?????
posted by Jacqueline at 8:22 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
Oh my god this is so frustrating. How is it that the Libertarian Party is better at volunteer recruitment and mobilization than the Democrats with all your resources???
If someone wanted to volunteer and I didn't have anything for them to do then I WOULD MAKE UP SOMETHING FOR THEM TO DO. I wouldn't tell them there was nothing within 200 miles. People volunteer because they have a chunk of free time in their life they want to fill, and if you don't fill it for them then they go fill it with something else and will no longer be available when you need them.
The Republicans know this and keep their supporters doing shit year-round. That's how they're always able to turn out large crowds of crazies to scream at school board meetings etc. They have multiple organizations, e.g. the Leadership Institute, Americans for Prosperity, etc. to keep people busy with either training or low-stakes makework activism in between elections because they know that the personal relationships people build are what keep them committed and motivated during campaign season. They even have people whose entire job is to take two people who don't know each other out to coffee and introduce them and then set them up to do stuff together. They consider matchmaking new friends to be a critical part of volunteer management.
And I know all this insider stuff about how they operate because the Republican-affiliated organizations make their activist training available for cheap or even free, whereas the Democrat-affiliated trainings always cost way too much for me to attend. (Libertarians couldn't afford to put on much in the way of our own training so we usually just crashed other parties' things, which they were generally fine with because having occasional outsiders in the classes helped them justify their tax status as nonpartisan educational organizations.)
Looking at the dysfunction of the Democratic Party from the perspective of 20+ years of Libertarian Party activism is infuriating. The things I could have done with your resources and with the majority of the population already on your side. Why can't all y'all just get your shit together?????
posted by Jacqueline at 8:22 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
Looking at the dysfunction of the Democratic Party from the perspective of 20+ years of Libertarian Party activism is infuriating. The things I could have done with your resources and with the majority of the population already on your side. Why can't all y'all just get your shit together?????
Sometimes I think the Democratic leadership looks at that Will Rogers quote as something to be proud of.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 8:30 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Sometimes I think the Democratic leadership looks at that Will Rogers quote as something to be proud of.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 8:30 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
So, I consider myself to be pretty cynical, and I wouldn't say I have a high opinion of America....but man, this thread is making my views of this country look rosy in comparison!
It’s the one-sidedness of the reporting and focus that makes me and from what I’ve read some others as well quite suspicious of the push to oust Biden at this particular moment in the campaign.
This is a broad point that keeps coming up in recent political threads (and elsewhere) - the media on the whole leans Democrat. Many left-leaning members of the media have been concerned about Biden for over a year, and Biden's team has effectively gaslit them, assuring them Biden in 2024 is no different than Biden in 2020. Post-debate the media was genuinely angry, and I agree, that is influencing their reporting in terms of its fervor, but there is nothing "suspicious" about this - people don't like being lied to! Especially when democracy is on the line, as the Biden admin likes to say. Although as I've written in other threads, had Democratic politicians all united around Biden without any leaks, I don't think we'd still be talking about this - the story has long moved on from his debate performance. The story now is the general lack of faith his co-workers have in his abilities.
Do you believe you live in an America where more people want a young, (arguably) progressive woman of color to be President than want Donald Trump? I don't.
So, I'm not an idiot, and I'm not going to tell you that racism and sexism doesn't exist in the US. Obviously they do. But the US also elected Obama in 2008 and then in 2012, and he still remains a popular politician. The two biggest popstars in the US are both women, and one of them is Black. Oprah is universal loved, so much so she doesn't even need her last name. Hell, Hillary won the popular vote handily - and perhaps if her campaign strategy hadn't completely ignored the suburbs/rural areas (unlike Obama), she might have won the electoral college too. Again, yes, there is racism and sexism in this country, but I am starting to think that the horror of the Trump presidency + the trauma of COVID has made some people a bit overly pessimistic about their fellow Americans. I think a Harris vs. Trump matchup will be close, and I don't think she's guaranteed to win, but I think she will fare far better than a candidate that often struggles to read off a teleprompter, and is often incoherent or appears confused when he has to go off-script - white male privilege will only take you so far.
It seems pretty clear to me that every single person with a net worth over about $10m in this country has decided Trump is their guy for what I guess are tax reasons and they're just trying to ratfuck anyone who stands against him. So it's just going to be some other fake fucking scandal about the next nominee
Putting aside that Biden's current condition is not fake (as countless interviews have proven, again and again), you know that most people in the rank and file of the media are not wealthy, yeah? Sure, some people in the media are quite rich, but the average journalists is middle class - including many who are calling for Biden to step down. They aren't going to destroy Harris, if only because they don't want Trump to win.
Dude was old in primary season too and that was the time to ask these questions.
Here I think most people agree! But voters were asking these questions even before the primary season, the press was also reporting on it and asking such questions - the problem was the DNC elites refused to listen. If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the DNC for not listening sooner.
posted by coffeecat at 8:47 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
It’s the one-sidedness of the reporting and focus that makes me and from what I’ve read some others as well quite suspicious of the push to oust Biden at this particular moment in the campaign.
This is a broad point that keeps coming up in recent political threads (and elsewhere) - the media on the whole leans Democrat. Many left-leaning members of the media have been concerned about Biden for over a year, and Biden's team has effectively gaslit them, assuring them Biden in 2024 is no different than Biden in 2020. Post-debate the media was genuinely angry, and I agree, that is influencing their reporting in terms of its fervor, but there is nothing "suspicious" about this - people don't like being lied to! Especially when democracy is on the line, as the Biden admin likes to say. Although as I've written in other threads, had Democratic politicians all united around Biden without any leaks, I don't think we'd still be talking about this - the story has long moved on from his debate performance. The story now is the general lack of faith his co-workers have in his abilities.
Do you believe you live in an America where more people want a young, (arguably) progressive woman of color to be President than want Donald Trump? I don't.
So, I'm not an idiot, and I'm not going to tell you that racism and sexism doesn't exist in the US. Obviously they do. But the US also elected Obama in 2008 and then in 2012, and he still remains a popular politician. The two biggest popstars in the US are both women, and one of them is Black. Oprah is universal loved, so much so she doesn't even need her last name. Hell, Hillary won the popular vote handily - and perhaps if her campaign strategy hadn't completely ignored the suburbs/rural areas (unlike Obama), she might have won the electoral college too. Again, yes, there is racism and sexism in this country, but I am starting to think that the horror of the Trump presidency + the trauma of COVID has made some people a bit overly pessimistic about their fellow Americans. I think a Harris vs. Trump matchup will be close, and I don't think she's guaranteed to win, but I think she will fare far better than a candidate that often struggles to read off a teleprompter, and is often incoherent or appears confused when he has to go off-script - white male privilege will only take you so far.
It seems pretty clear to me that every single person with a net worth over about $10m in this country has decided Trump is their guy for what I guess are tax reasons and they're just trying to ratfuck anyone who stands against him. So it's just going to be some other fake fucking scandal about the next nominee
Putting aside that Biden's current condition is not fake (as countless interviews have proven, again and again), you know that most people in the rank and file of the media are not wealthy, yeah? Sure, some people in the media are quite rich, but the average journalists is middle class - including many who are calling for Biden to step down. They aren't going to destroy Harris, if only because they don't want Trump to win.
Dude was old in primary season too and that was the time to ask these questions.
Here I think most people agree! But voters were asking these questions even before the primary season, the press was also reporting on it and asking such questions - the problem was the DNC elites refused to listen. If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the DNC for not listening sooner.
posted by coffeecat at 8:47 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
I don't think there was a legitimate chance for Democrats to weigh in on a candidate this year. Because of the incumbency, the primaries were pro forma. If they weren't truly contested, "overturning" them isn't really a thing.
I'd be a little happier with a younger, more dynamic, less genocidal candidate. But I will work my ass off for whoever gets the nod. I'm old enough not to expect the best person to be the candidate. We've had some real stinkers. I don't care. It's madness to even consider voting for any Republican ever. That leaves us in a terrible position as a country, but it's the position we're in, and I'm truly afraid the cure would be worse than the disease (permanent authoritarian theocracy).
Whoever said they'd be happy to vote for a paint bucket with "Democrat" written on it was right on.
posted by rikschell at 8:54 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
I'd be a little happier with a younger, more dynamic, less genocidal candidate. But I will work my ass off for whoever gets the nod. I'm old enough not to expect the best person to be the candidate. We've had some real stinkers. I don't care. It's madness to even consider voting for any Republican ever. That leaves us in a terrible position as a country, but it's the position we're in, and I'm truly afraid the cure would be worse than the disease (permanent authoritarian theocracy).
Whoever said they'd be happy to vote for a paint bucket with "Democrat" written on it was right on.
posted by rikschell at 8:54 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
The problems was the vivid, visceral demonstration Biden gave in the debate. No one saw that in the primaries.
I believe Joe Biden is experiencing a rapid onset of dementia in one form or another, and I do not think he should be continuing in his job, let alone campaigning for four (!) more years.
Anything else about ratfucking or media fairness, the incompetence of the DNC or the unbearable tedious and seemingly endless left/center family warfare — none of it matters a stitch if I’m right (big if! I know). The man has a medical condition that makes him unable to do the job and this condition will only get worse.
I refuse to pretend the truth is not the truth. We tell the truth, then go from there.
posted by argybarg at 8:55 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
I believe Joe Biden is experiencing a rapid onset of dementia in one form or another, and I do not think he should be continuing in his job, let alone campaigning for four (!) more years.
Anything else about ratfucking or media fairness, the incompetence of the DNC or the unbearable tedious and seemingly endless left/center family warfare — none of it matters a stitch if I’m right (big if! I know). The man has a medical condition that makes him unable to do the job and this condition will only get worse.
I refuse to pretend the truth is not the truth. We tell the truth, then go from there.
posted by argybarg at 8:55 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Predicting right now it will be exactly the same.
For those who are one-issue voters, and this is their one issue, then vote for Trump. They are all the same, right? They should just pull that lever, if that's really what they want and they're not just making noise.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:56 PM on July 18
For those who are one-issue voters, and this is their one issue, then vote for Trump. They are all the same, right? They should just pull that lever, if that's really what they want and they're not just making noise.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:56 PM on July 18
the media on the whole leans Democrat.
Why on earth would you think that?
posted by Artw at 8:57 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
Why on earth would you think that?
posted by Artw at 8:57 PM on July 18 [11 favorites]
I wasn't joking about the "Younger Democrat" thing, by the way. It's pretty remarkable.
That poll was paid for by Democrats for the Next Generation, which is basically an anti-Biden group funded with money from Bill Harris.
"Bill Harris, a former chief executive of Intuit and PayPal, said he is leading a small group of Democratic donors who have pledged $2 million to help fund presidential debates among potential nominees if President Biden decides to step aside.
The group of donors is pressing for an open competition for the Democratic nomination that would draw public attention if Biden drops out. The group is looking for robust debates rather than merely coalescing around Vice President Harris or another nominee, according to Bill Harris, who declined to name the other donors."
Fintech people are generally not fond of pro-union, progressive candidates. I suspect a candidate who is not only younger, but more conservative is what this group is working on.
posted by oneirodynia at 8:58 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
That poll was paid for by Democrats for the Next Generation, which is basically an anti-Biden group funded with money from Bill Harris.
"Bill Harris, a former chief executive of Intuit and PayPal, said he is leading a small group of Democratic donors who have pledged $2 million to help fund presidential debates among potential nominees if President Biden decides to step aside.
The group of donors is pressing for an open competition for the Democratic nomination that would draw public attention if Biden drops out. The group is looking for robust debates rather than merely coalescing around Vice President Harris or another nominee, according to Bill Harris, who declined to name the other donors."
Fintech people are generally not fond of pro-union, progressive candidates. I suspect a candidate who is not only younger, but more conservative is what this group is working on.
posted by oneirodynia at 8:58 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Look, this isn't hard. Biden already can not do unscripted live events (debates, questions from reporters) and will continue to decline. You can lose to Trump with Biden or you can maybe lose or maybe win with Harris + a new VP.
Biden took away the "Win with Biden" option during the debate and his NATO press conference word-association game.
Sorry, i don't like it either.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 9:03 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
Biden took away the "Win with Biden" option during the debate and his NATO press conference word-association game.
Sorry, i don't like it either.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 9:03 PM on July 18 [13 favorites]
>The GOP cannot wait to unleash the lawyers to make sure the Dem candidate does not appear on at least 3 states' ballots.
Can someone holding this view provide some sort of citation that justifies this fear? It would be helpful. My understanding is the Dems have not nominated anyone yet and no state's ballots are yet fixed. Is that incorrect?
DNC says virtual roll call to nominate Biden will happen in August
I don't know about "at least 3 states" but I think there is some risk in Ohio.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:08 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
Can someone holding this view provide some sort of citation that justifies this fear? It would be helpful. My understanding is the Dems have not nominated anyone yet and no state's ballots are yet fixed. Is that incorrect?
DNC says virtual roll call to nominate Biden will happen in August
I don't know about "at least 3 states" but I think there is some risk in Ohio.
The Democratic National Committee has determined that a virtual roll call vote to formally nominate President Biden as the party's nominee will happen in August, according to a letter sent Wednesday by the heads of the convention rules committee.August 5 is what, 18 days away? So I think if they were going to replace Biden and get the replacements name on Ohio's ballot for sure, it has to happen by then. I can't imagine it could be anyone but Harris in that time. There will be no contested convention.
...
they have confirmed with the DNC and the Democratic National Convention that "no voting will begin before August 1." They add that the vote is set to happen before the in-person Democratic National Convention that starts Aug. 19.
DNC Chair Jamie Harrison posted Tuesday that they want the vote to happen by Aug. 5, to comply with an Aug. 7 deadline for candidate certification in Ohio. In late May, the DNC announced a move to a virtual roll call because of that deadline.
...
In June, Ohio passed a bill to move its deadline from Aug. 7 to Sept. 1. But because that law technically does not take effect until Sept. 1, the DNC said they are keeping their timeline of a pre-convention virtual roll call in place due to concern of litigation. Republican Secretary of State Frank LaRose suggested earlier this month that Sept. 1 deadline to certify a candidate would stand.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:08 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
I think it's worthwhile going back and watching the debate.
It's really really bad.
posted by constraint at 9:08 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
It's really really bad.
posted by constraint at 9:08 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
Why on earth would you think that?
I dunno, maybe because all of the media I consume (including fairly mainstream stuff, like NYTimes, WSJ, New Yorker, NPR, etc.) is pretty explicit in its distaste and fear of Trump. Why on earth would you not think that?
posted by coffeecat at 9:10 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
I dunno, maybe because all of the media I consume (including fairly mainstream stuff, like NYTimes, WSJ, New Yorker, NPR, etc.) is pretty explicit in its distaste and fear of Trump. Why on earth would you not think that?
posted by coffeecat at 9:10 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
I thought all the cool kids were volunteering through Vote Save America.
posted by Marticus at 9:18 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Marticus at 9:18 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Even prior to the debate a lot of people in my social circles were saying things like "I can't believe these are our choices". Personally I would have gladly voted for 2020 Biden again, and won't hesitate to vote for him this November if he is still on the ballot. But as rikschell pointed out above, as the incumbent, Biden wasn't going to be seriously challenged. Now, whoever winds up becoming the new Democratic nominee, the Democrats can say "we recognized the problem and we made a change", and I think there are a lot of people who are open to that message. There are a lot of people who would have held their noses and voted for Biden prior to the debate disaster but would have had serious qualms afterwards. I think these people would be much more enthusiastic about a candidate who just demonstrates simple, baseline competency to vote for this November. I think and hope that Harris can play that role.
posted by Reverend John at 9:20 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
posted by Reverend John at 9:20 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
> Why on earth would you not think that?
Because the American right has a press apparatus of a similar size and sophistication.
I'm guessing you don't engage with those new sources, but a huge fraction of the populace does.
posted by constraint at 9:31 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Because the American right has a press apparatus of a similar size and sophistication.
I'm guessing you don't engage with those new sources, but a huge fraction of the populace does.
posted by constraint at 9:31 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
It is not lost on me that this new wave of “Biden must go!” started after he announced a plan for national rent control.
I can’t bring myself to get excited for all the great things Biden could have been doing for three years and is now doing as a desperation move.
posted by corb at 9:46 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
I mean: I haven't seen Mean Girls, but is this where I say "Stop trying to make fetch happen"?
posted by kristi at 9:51 PM on July 18
posted by kristi at 9:51 PM on July 18
>I dunno, maybe because all of the media I consume (including fairly mainstream stuff, like NYTimes, WSJ, New Yorker, NPR, etc.) is pretty explicit in its distaste and fear of Trump. Why on earth would you not think that?
I'm sorry, why would I not think that distaste and fear of Trump must be an indication of a liberal media bias? Is that the serious question? Because we're talking about a rapist who partied with Jeffrey Epstein becoming president and making himself immune to laws. Distaste and fear are objectively appropriate reactions, and in fact the distaste and fear we see in the major news outlets are not nearly proportionate to the threat. The news stories I see are going well out of their way to tippytoe around anything that might be embarrassing to Trump--like the whole raping kids thing, for instance--preferring instead to go with 'Biden Still Old' as the top story. If you're watching the way this election is being reported and your takeaway is 'gosh, that slanted liberal media,' I really don't know what to say to you.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:55 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
I'm sorry, why would I not think that distaste and fear of Trump must be an indication of a liberal media bias? Is that the serious question? Because we're talking about a rapist who partied with Jeffrey Epstein becoming president and making himself immune to laws. Distaste and fear are objectively appropriate reactions, and in fact the distaste and fear we see in the major news outlets are not nearly proportionate to the threat. The news stories I see are going well out of their way to tippytoe around anything that might be embarrassing to Trump--like the whole raping kids thing, for instance--preferring instead to go with 'Biden Still Old' as the top story. If you're watching the way this election is being reported and your takeaway is 'gosh, that slanted liberal media,' I really don't know what to say to you.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:55 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
"Biden seems weak and out-of-it. Trump… doesn’t. No one is talking about Trump’s “vigor” because there’s nothing to talk about."
I feel like I'm reading comments made from an alternate universe. Trump keeps literally falling asleep in public.
he... he fell asleep in the middle of the day, multiple days running, at his own criminal trial.
it made the news. multiple times. "Trump asleep in court again." the Big Three talk show hosts did jokes about it in their monologues. Jimmy Kimmel called him "Rip One Van Winkle" and "Teddy Dozevelt" and "Donny Nappleseed."
some claim there was farting but I have no way to verify
posted by taquito sunrise at 9:56 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
I feel like I'm reading comments made from an alternate universe. Trump keeps literally falling asleep in public.
he... he fell asleep in the middle of the day, multiple days running, at his own criminal trial.
it made the news. multiple times. "Trump asleep in court again." the Big Three talk show hosts did jokes about it in their monologues. Jimmy Kimmel called him "Rip One Van Winkle" and "Teddy Dozevelt" and "Donny Nappleseed."
some claim there was farting but I have no way to verify
posted by taquito sunrise at 9:56 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
"I thought all the cool kids were volunteering through Vote Save America."
And here's a prime example of how the Democrats' volunteer recruitment, on boarding, and mobilization is a gatekeeping shitshow.
How is someone who isn't already part of progressive or left-wing circles supposed to know to go volunteer for some other organization instead of the campaign or the party?
Thank you for the information, by the way. I will try there. But the fact that I -- who used to run a political textbank as my full-time job and thus knows what to search for and where to look -- can't simply find and sign up for the Biden textbank without outside help is ridiculous.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:59 PM on July 18
And here's a prime example of how the Democrats' volunteer recruitment, on boarding, and mobilization is a gatekeeping shitshow.
How is someone who isn't already part of progressive or left-wing circles supposed to know to go volunteer for some other organization instead of the campaign or the party?
Thank you for the information, by the way. I will try there. But the fact that I -- who used to run a political textbank as my full-time job and thus knows what to search for and where to look -- can't simply find and sign up for the Biden textbank without outside help is ridiculous.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:59 PM on July 18
I can’t bring myself to get excited for all the great things Biden could have been doing for three years and is now doing as a desperation move.
As I posted over in the Registered Apprenticeship thread:
There are over 1000 pages at the White House Briefing Room, with 10 items per page. If you very conservatively estimate that half of those are actual things that make things better for actual people, that's 5000 things - Conference on Hunger. Assistance to Ukraine. Tenant Protections and Rental Affordability (November 2022). Roundtable Affirming Transgender Kids (April 2023). Day 1 to today, every single day, he has been delivering on the things that everyone at MetaFilter seems to value.
I'm truly sorry that the press doesn't bother reporting most of this stuff, but still - we are very online. We are very politically knowledgeable, compared to most Americans. We should know this stuff.
Biden has been a phenomenal president. I would like for him to continue to be a phenomenal president for the next four years.
posted by kristi at 10:01 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
As I posted over in the Registered Apprenticeship thread:
my impression is that the Biden administration has been non-stop doing things to make life better for all kinds of Americans from the day he took office. ...Covid. American Rescue Plan. Actual infrastructure bills. Absolutely extraordinary investment in renewable energy. Paris Climate Agreement. A massive focus on equity. Appointing people to the courts and to his cabinet that represent all of America, not just rich white Ivy Leaguers.
I would bet you 5 bucks I could find a couple dozen major positive actions in every month he's been in office. Maybe every week.
There are over 1000 pages at the White House Briefing Room, with 10 items per page. If you very conservatively estimate that half of those are actual things that make things better for actual people, that's 5000 things - Conference on Hunger. Assistance to Ukraine. Tenant Protections and Rental Affordability (November 2022). Roundtable Affirming Transgender Kids (April 2023). Day 1 to today, every single day, he has been delivering on the things that everyone at MetaFilter seems to value.
I'm truly sorry that the press doesn't bother reporting most of this stuff, but still - we are very online. We are very politically knowledgeable, compared to most Americans. We should know this stuff.
Biden has been a phenomenal president. I would like for him to continue to be a phenomenal president for the next four years.
posted by kristi at 10:01 PM on July 18 [9 favorites]
I'm a fucking libertarian and even I know about all the good stuff Biden has been doing because the only time I remember he exists is when I see a news story about how something that economists have been screaming about for years is finally getting fixed thanks to the Biden administration being full of politically savvy people who figured out what they could get done via the executive branch only.
So if you're a Democrat and haven't heard about any of the good his administration has done, I advise you to reconsider your news sources.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:06 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
So if you're a Democrat and haven't heard about any of the good his administration has done, I advise you to reconsider your news sources.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:06 PM on July 18 [7 favorites]
Just a couple of minor poli sci points:
Someone upthread said it would be unconstitutional for Newsom to be Harris’s VP. That’s not quite true. There’s nothing preventing a Harris/Newsom ticket, but electors from California wouldn’t be able to vote for both of them. There are possible ways around that, but no one is going to risk anything, especially with the current SCOTUS, and California has too many electors to make it worthwhile to try this particular scenario. But you certainly could have an all-California ticket, it just presents the possibility that your presidential candidate wins the electoral college but your VP loses.
Someone else mentioned that we need a Democratic House and Senate so that we can impeach Trump and remove him if he wins the presidency. That would be nice, but it would require 67 senators to vote to remove Trump, and that will never happen. It’s virtually impossible for the Democrats to get 67 senators. In fact, it is definitely impossible for a 2024. If every Republican senator lost their re-election campaign, you’d still have almost 40 Republicans in the Senate.
I really don’t see how a United States president could ever be removed unless there is a radical change to either our constitution or our political culture. I don’t expect a change on that scale to happen in my lifetime.
/pedantry
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:20 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Someone upthread said it would be unconstitutional for Newsom to be Harris’s VP. That’s not quite true. There’s nothing preventing a Harris/Newsom ticket, but electors from California wouldn’t be able to vote for both of them. There are possible ways around that, but no one is going to risk anything, especially with the current SCOTUS, and California has too many electors to make it worthwhile to try this particular scenario. But you certainly could have an all-California ticket, it just presents the possibility that your presidential candidate wins the electoral college but your VP loses.
Someone else mentioned that we need a Democratic House and Senate so that we can impeach Trump and remove him if he wins the presidency. That would be nice, but it would require 67 senators to vote to remove Trump, and that will never happen. It’s virtually impossible for the Democrats to get 67 senators. In fact, it is definitely impossible for a 2024. If every Republican senator lost their re-election campaign, you’d still have almost 40 Republicans in the Senate.
I really don’t see how a United States president could ever be removed unless there is a radical change to either our constitution or our political culture. I don’t expect a change on that scale to happen in my lifetime.
/pedantry
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:20 PM on July 18 [4 favorites]
Harris has NOT been invisible: she and her staff have regularly posted her activities as VP on her social media since she took office.
That's not the definition of politically visible. Media coverage is. One of annoyances of Biden's term was that he didn't keep Harris in the spotlight, giving her projects to highlight her so she'd be more of a public figure and help ensure a transition keeping the GOP out of power.
My problem is that if she's just anointed by the donor class as the designated younger Democrat, it's an anti-democratic (small d) process. The voice of the voters is missing. Not a good look if you're trying to distinguish yourself from the other parties anti-democratic policies.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:38 PM on July 18
That's not the definition of politically visible. Media coverage is. One of annoyances of Biden's term was that he didn't keep Harris in the spotlight, giving her projects to highlight her so she'd be more of a public figure and help ensure a transition keeping the GOP out of power.
My problem is that if she's just anointed by the donor class as the designated younger Democrat, it's an anti-democratic (small d) process. The voice of the voters is missing. Not a good look if you're trying to distinguish yourself from the other parties anti-democratic policies.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:38 PM on July 18
During an IG Live session tonight, @AOC passionately argued that the "elites" pushing for @POTUS @JoeBiden to drop out have a hidden agenda to remove Kamala Harris from the ballot next.
She claimed that this plan, which she believes involves many influential figures, would lead to chaos and destabilization, and thus, insisted that Biden must remain the nominee.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:45 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
She claimed that this plan, which she believes involves many influential figures, would lead to chaos and destabilization, and thus, insisted that Biden must remain the nominee.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:45 PM on July 18 [5 favorites]
I guess I don't really understand the down side of Biden staying in, given that the heir apparent, and to my understanding the most popular choice at this point as the person to step up, is Kamala Harris.
The downside is that he’s struggling with campaign stuff, with communicating a case for himself in public, in a race in which he’s narrowly down in the polls. Whether Harris, on short notice (or somebody else on extremely short notice and amidst chaos) would do better I can’t say but that’s the idea.
It is a thing people are concerned about, but how many people are concerned about it because of the endless reporting of Debategate?
The democratic primary voters I know - and I mean, you know, my mother, not just lefty young people who never particularly liked him - have been pretty candid since before the primary about their doubts about this doddery 81-year-old man running again, but resigned to him as the safest choice since it’s also been far from certain that there’s anyone up to finishing this thing coming off the bench. The last few weeks have made that concern more acute and made Biden look less safe. One can still make an electability argument against him stepping aside, of course, but the idea that this is something that was just recently stirred up by the media is not at all consistent with my experience talking politics with people in real life.
posted by atoxyl at 10:52 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
The downside is that he’s struggling with campaign stuff, with communicating a case for himself in public, in a race in which he’s narrowly down in the polls. Whether Harris, on short notice (or somebody else on extremely short notice and amidst chaos) would do better I can’t say but that’s the idea.
It is a thing people are concerned about, but how many people are concerned about it because of the endless reporting of Debategate?
The democratic primary voters I know - and I mean, you know, my mother, not just lefty young people who never particularly liked him - have been pretty candid since before the primary about their doubts about this doddery 81-year-old man running again, but resigned to him as the safest choice since it’s also been far from certain that there’s anyone up to finishing this thing coming off the bench. The last few weeks have made that concern more acute and made Biden look less safe. One can still make an electability argument against him stepping aside, of course, but the idea that this is something that was just recently stirred up by the media is not at all consistent with my experience talking politics with people in real life.
posted by atoxyl at 10:52 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
Harris is the one person about whom you could not say that she was "just annointed." She's been part of the ticket for four years. Voters who chose Biden in this year's primary and 2020's general did so knowing that Harris was his choice to step in and replace him if he could not serve. She was part of the team that they voted for.
She is the only candidate other than Biden about whom that can be said. And money was raised in her name as well as Biden's, so she's the only other person who can spend it.
I wonder if Biden has been telling people behind the scenes that they need to get behind Harris if they expect him to get out of the way. I could see that. And I could imagine that resistance to that is why he's held out so far. The infighting that would arise from trying to pick (annoint) anyone else could just destroy the party, and I don't think Biden would want to let that happen.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:56 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
She is the only candidate other than Biden about whom that can be said. And money was raised in her name as well as Biden's, so she's the only other person who can spend it.
I wonder if Biden has been telling people behind the scenes that they need to get behind Harris if they expect him to get out of the way. I could see that. And I could imagine that resistance to that is why he's held out so far. The infighting that would arise from trying to pick (annoint) anyone else could just destroy the party, and I don't think Biden would want to let that happen.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:56 PM on July 18 [8 favorites]
One of annoyances of Biden's term was that he didn't keep Harris in the spotlight, giving her projects to highlight her so she'd be more of a public figure and help ensure a transition keeping the GOP out of power.
Yea, it was a real failure of this administration not to spotlight Harris — and a lot of other officials. They always refer to the Biden-Harris administration but we never see Harris. It seems like they took an approach of having Biden himself be the main figurehead or spokesperson for everything, then pulled back entirely as he became less capable. I suspect this came from having a chief of staff and so forth who were too personally loyal to Biden.
Janet Yellen at Treasury could have been a celebrity the way Alan Greenspan was at the Fed, and having a sweet, brilliant elder woman as the face of the fight to save jobs and cut inflation could have helped a lot. And I haven’t seen any major profiles or iconic media appearances of any other cabinet members, except for Pete Buttigieg after some transportation mishaps. It’s bizarre that the massively unpopular Dick Cheney got so much more spotlight in his day than Harris, though honestly the George W. Bush administration partly overcame the challenges of a president not great at public speaking by giving a lot of other people in the administration a place on the stage.
posted by smelendez at 11:02 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Yea, it was a real failure of this administration not to spotlight Harris — and a lot of other officials. They always refer to the Biden-Harris administration but we never see Harris. It seems like they took an approach of having Biden himself be the main figurehead or spokesperson for everything, then pulled back entirely as he became less capable. I suspect this came from having a chief of staff and so forth who were too personally loyal to Biden.
Janet Yellen at Treasury could have been a celebrity the way Alan Greenspan was at the Fed, and having a sweet, brilliant elder woman as the face of the fight to save jobs and cut inflation could have helped a lot. And I haven’t seen any major profiles or iconic media appearances of any other cabinet members, except for Pete Buttigieg after some transportation mishaps. It’s bizarre that the massively unpopular Dick Cheney got so much more spotlight in his day than Harris, though honestly the George W. Bush administration partly overcame the challenges of a president not great at public speaking by giving a lot of other people in the administration a place on the stage.
posted by smelendez at 11:02 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
I would bet you 5 bucks I could find a couple dozen major positive actions in every month he's been in office. Maybe every week.
Covid.
You mean declaring the pandemic over while we continue to have massive waves that keep infecting people while killing some of them and leaving others with long-term disability? Not really something I'd count as a positive. (Honestly kind of disgusted seeing his covid-positive ass get on AF1 unmasked and very probably infecting everyone he comes into contact with.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:22 PM on July 18 [2 favorites]
Tired of hearing about Biden and Covid when it was TFG who killed 500k+ Americans. Some of them left to die because they "lived in urban areas" that would vote Democratic. That's ignoring the semis hauling refrigeration trailers to act as makeshift morgues, and nurses wearing fucking garbage bags as PPE because Trumps were literally confiscating it and reselling it to the highest bidders. Don't ever fucking talk to me about Biden and Covid. Fucking ever.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:29 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:29 PM on July 18 [10 favorites]
All I know is we better get this fucking right because Trump in office does actually equal DOOM. He has threatened retaliation towards his political enemies. I know he says bombastic things, but he's set up the courts against everyone but himself. They have a playbook this time in the form of Project 2025 instead of, "I dunno: just wing it". This is crazy stuff. (and I know you all know this). And like all of you, I am so, so sick of just having Trump front and center in my life again.
posted by alex_skazat at 11:36 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 11:36 PM on July 18 [3 favorites]
Tired of hearing about Biden and Covid
Trump being worse doesn't mean Biden has actually been good. (Going around unmasked after a positive covid test is a very Trumpian thing to do, also, honestly.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:47 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
Trump being worse doesn't mean Biden has actually been good. (Going around unmasked after a positive covid test is a very Trumpian thing to do, also, honestly.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:47 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]
I've been a Biden-head for ages and until recently was arguing in favor of him staying in the race. But when I contemplate a Harris-Cooper ticket (or really any Harris-Younger Democrat ticket) I feel so enthusiastic, sincerely, like I want to jump up and down with excitement about how good this could be.
Just me, a middle-class middle-aged whatever person in the middle of nowhere. Fuckin amped at this prospect. Some of my extended family (who are generally politically apathetic) seem to feel the same. The group chat has been very active lately.
The average mid-information voter doesn't think of Kamala as a cop, barely associates her with the state of California, and views her as essentially a blank slate who seems like a nice-enough sort who isn't a raging fascist dickbag. I'm sure there's plenty of opposition research and smear content ready to go in ads against her. But from here, it seems like it really could be an amazing jolt of energy to have her at the top of the ticket.
posted by knotty knots at 11:48 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Just me, a middle-class middle-aged whatever person in the middle of nowhere. Fuckin amped at this prospect. Some of my extended family (who are generally politically apathetic) seem to feel the same. The group chat has been very active lately.
The average mid-information voter doesn't think of Kamala as a cop, barely associates her with the state of California, and views her as essentially a blank slate who seems like a nice-enough sort who isn't a raging fascist dickbag. I'm sure there's plenty of opposition research and smear content ready to go in ads against her. But from here, it seems like it really could be an amazing jolt of energy to have her at the top of the ticket.
posted by knotty knots at 11:48 PM on July 18 [6 favorites]
Someone upthread said it would be unconstitutional for Newsom to be Harris’s VP. That’s not quite true. There’s nothing preventing a Harris/Newsom ticket, but electors from California wouldn’t be able to vote for both of them.
I appreciate the correction about this!
posted by Gadarene at 12:03 AM on July 19 [1 favorite]
I appreciate the correction about this!
posted by Gadarene at 12:03 AM on July 19 [1 favorite]
Just going to leave this here for now, and hope the simple solution of “Get Biden to withdraw and find someone else” doesn’t become another application example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
posted by darkstar at 12:41 AM on July 19
posted by darkstar at 12:41 AM on July 19
I wonder if Biden has been telling people behind the scenes that they need to get behind Harris if they expect him to get out of the way. I could see that. And I could imagine that resistance to that is why he's held out so far. The infighting that would arise from trying to pick (annoint) anyone else could just destroy the party, and I don't think Biden would want to let that happen.
This is the best read on the situation so far. I don't believe that Biden is an egomaniac -- I trust that he has enough experience to know his chances and Harris's, and he would step aside if that is best. If there was certainty that Democratic voters and electeds would ALL get behind Harris, I believe Biden would pass the torch.
I think passing the torch hasn's happened because some people in the party are not on board with Harris.
posted by ichomp at 1:02 AM on July 19
This is the best read on the situation so far. I don't believe that Biden is an egomaniac -- I trust that he has enough experience to know his chances and Harris's, and he would step aside if that is best. If there was certainty that Democratic voters and electeds would ALL get behind Harris, I believe Biden would pass the torch.
I think passing the torch hasn's happened because some people in the party are not on board with Harris.
posted by ichomp at 1:02 AM on July 19
Just me, a middle-class middle-aged whatever person in the middle of nowhere. Fuckin amped at this prospect. Some of my extended family (who are generally politically apathetic) seem to feel the same. The group chat has been very active lately.
I am equally excited by the prospect of a new ticket, and I also am excited to rally behind Biden-Harris one more time.
posted by ichomp at 1:04 AM on July 19 [1 favorite]
I am equally excited by the prospect of a new ticket, and I also am excited to rally behind Biden-Harris one more time.
posted by ichomp at 1:04 AM on July 19 [1 favorite]
Just going to leave this here for now, and hope the simple solution of “Get Biden to withdraw and find someone else” doesn’t become another application example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
Biden cannot win. He is polling well behind Trump in key swing states, his approval rating has been below 44% since October of 2021, and at this point 65% of self-described Democrats in recent polls think he should withdraw from the race, and a plurality are not confident in his mental capacity to execute the office of president.
If this were not the case, and if a majority of voters didn't think he shouldn't be running and didn't have serious questions about his capacity for the job and ability to serve another four year term following his disastrous debate performance, we would not be having this conversation now. And I'll take my chances with unintended consequences over blithely sailing into an iceberg and hoping the watertight compartments hold.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:19 AM on July 19 [3 favorites]
If Biden quits, who replaces him? Harris is the only with anything like a record at that level and she's not nearly popular enough, having kept her head down the past four years.
We are a goddamn circular firing squadsometimes most of the time.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:51 AM on July 19
We are a goddamn circular firing squad
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:51 AM on July 19
So Nancy Pelosi (age 84) is telling Joe Biden (age 81) that he's too old? I mean, I'm not saying she's wrong, but ...
It's a bit like Dean Martin staging an intervention for someone.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:45 AM on July 19
It's a bit like Dean Martin staging an intervention for someone.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:45 AM on July 19
The Dems are so fucking bad at politics that running against a rapist found liable for nine figures worth of fraud, who was convicted of 34 felonies, who mishandled classified documents, and who tried to overturn a presidential election result their guy is gonna get booted as unfit to serve.
Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:49 AM on July 19 [1 favorite]
Jesus fucking Christ.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:49 AM on July 19 [1 favorite]
The economy feels awful enough to normal humans that Trump being the opponent is the only reason this race is remotely close. If GOPer primary voters had picked any of the normal people on offer, we'd be looking at something closer to a 2008 curb stomp.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:04 AM on July 19
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:04 AM on July 19
« Older 1929-2024 | If that pattern isn’t size inclusive, you can fix... Newer »
"A person with knowledge of the projections said the Biden campaign now expects it will raise only 25% of the big donor money it had originally projected to raise in July — that’s a further downgrade from the expectation last week that large-dollar fundraising would be down by as much as 50%. The money has “dried up,” this person said."
posted by procrastination at 5:06 PM on July 18 [1 favorite]