'Let’s call it “alpha-victim masculinity.”'

July 28, 2024 10:16 AM

What is America's gender war actually about? (Derek Thompson for The Atlantic)
posted by box (29 comments total)

The left has become more adept at shaming toxic masculinity than at showcasing a positive masculinity that is distinct from femininity. Progressive readers of the previous sentence might roll their eyes at the notion that it is the job of any left-wing political movement to coddle men’s feelings.

This sentiment is dog dookey. Progressives shoulder enough blame for the failings of the democratic party without us also being the reason why men are demonized or whatever. Why the fuck is this something that's the fault of progressives, again?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:36 AM on July 28 [26 favorites]

> The left has become more adept at shaming toxic masculinity

You mean, "look what you're making us do?'
posted by Rat Spatula at 10:39 AM on July 28 [11 favorites]

Having just watched the reading rainbow documentary last night, I will suggest that Levar Burton is a pinnacle of non toxic masculinity.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:39 AM on July 28 [34 favorites]

I recently caught a glimpse of a program that stated that an experiment was conducted with little boys and girls in a play room, where everyone was told to play with any toy except the toy horse on the main table. They reported that boys typically had to be restrained from grabbing the horse while girls kept looking back to their mothers to seek approval to approach the horse. If true it likely shows no difference in boys and girls except their level of cultural subordination.
posted by Brian B. at 10:42 AM on July 28 [6 favorites]

For its part, the GOP plays host to several visions of masculinity, awkwardly mushed together. Trump is a thrice-married Lothario who combines the showmanship of a pro-wrestling heel with the wounded rage of a country-club rejectee. The result is a potent mix of cosmetic macho bluster and marrow-deep elite resentment. For the purpose of containing this multitude in a phrase, let’s call it “alpha-victim masculinity.”

I think this is a useful point to highlight — i.e., that current Republican rhetoric appeals specifically to men who feel aggrieved and insecure in their particular view of masculinity. They’re a particularly obnoxious bunch, but individuals may be reachable by people close to them, and understanding that dynamic might help with discouraging them. For example, my purely vibes-based opinion is that the recent mockery of J.D. Vance is already substantially reducing morale and enthusiasm in that group.

left has become more adept at shaming toxic masculinity than at showcasing a positive masculinity that is distinct from femininity.

Aaaargh. I have complex feelings about how progressives approach the question of masculinity, but in the context of this particular article it’s just the author trying to inject weak both-sides-ism and warrants only disdain IMO.

But also, fwiw as a site we just had a long, detailed, nuanced discussion of exactly that problem. By some miracle, it actually turned out to be a good conversation despite a rocky start, and unlike many other similar conversations on this site. If anyone feels the need to get into that topic based on frustration with this article, I’d highly encourage reading that discussion instead. ;-)
posted by learning from frequent failure at 11:02 AM on July 28 [14 favorites]

The left has become more adept at shaming toxic masculinity than at showcasing a positive masculinity that is distinct from femininity

I've just skimmed the article so maybe this isn't fair, but isn't the very root of toxic masculinity the need to be destinct from the feminine?

Isn't the whole point that people aren't [traditional traits associated with] masculine or [traditional traits associated with] feminine but whole-ass people who are combinations of those traits?

Or is this my nonbinaryness getting in the way of my understanding how other people work?
posted by Zumbador at 11:18 AM on July 28 [27 favorites]

Positive masculinity isn't loud or flashy. It doesn't brag. It's happening all around us but we don't notice it. Perhaps we've become so attuned to the yelling we don't hear the whispers.
posted by tommasz at 11:18 AM on July 28 [18 favorites]

My favorite example of "positive masculinity" is the manga/anime Way of the Househusband. Positive masculinity must always be transgressive in some way, because traditional masculinity is so tied in to and co-opted by patriarchy. Someone like Mr. Rogers cuts against male stereotypes of being hard and unfeeling. In certain circles he's mocked for his "unmanliness," but he's a great example of a man just being a good human. I have never been able to figure out what positive character traits are supposed to be "masculine." All the positive character traits I know don't feel "masculine" at all and all the masculine-coded ones I know tend toward toxic.

So guys, get out there, get therapy, be nice, wear skirts, whatever. Don't be a dick if you can help it, and if you are, apologize. Seems masculine enough to me.
posted by rikschell at 11:29 AM on July 28 [7 favorites]

But also, fwiw as a site we just had a long, detailed, nuanced discussion of exactly that problem. By some miracle, it actually turned out to be a good conversation despite a rocky start, and unlike many other similar conversations on this site.
learning from frequent failure

Oh, I feel the exact opposite about that thread. It was almost a textbook illustration of the problems in trying to discuss this topic in progressive-leaning spaces (starting with vehement disagreement over whether there's any problem in the first place). And the exact same problems that are already cropping up here.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:32 AM on July 28 [5 favorites]

It's also bizarre to always see these things framed in terms of "responsibility" or "fault" or who owes what to whom. It's a simple matter of practicality.

If a boy or young man is looking for guidance with their life and from the left they get, "Quit whining, shitheel, it's not my job to teach you" and from the right they get, "Quit whining, pussy, I'll teach you how to man up" it's no wonder that they gravitate towards the Tates or Rogans of the world who are at least offering a hand.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:36 AM on July 28 [12 favorites]

All this positive [gender] stuff really confuses me, because surely we're not saying "THESE traits are FEMININE and women naturally have them, even if they have other traits as well and THESE traits are MASCULINE and men naturally have THEM"?

Because if it's just that society tells us that women like nurturing and men like killing, and women like shopping and men like drinking and chasing girls, that doesn't seem like a thing where "positive masculinity" is a solution.

"Positive masculinity" doesn't really seem like the same thing as "being a good man", because it's not clear to me that a good man is really that different from a good woman - my father is a good man, and one of the good things he did was to care for my mother extremely patiently and kindly during her decade-long illness before she died. He dressed her, he took her on walks, he amused her, in the end he had to help her in the bathroom. He was nurturing. He was caring. He was present. He did all those things that are supposed to be "woman" things. The only reason this stands out is because we have a society where men are encouraged to leave their ill partners rather than care for them.

My dad is a good man and I'd hold him up as a positive example of How To Man, but not for anything that a woman couldn't or wouldn't do.

It's something I try to puzzle out as I try to think of why I am transmasculine - what do I mean that I "feel like a man"? I am confident that whatever that means, it does not mean "I feel like I have a different kind of morality than women do".
posted by Frowner at 11:38 AM on July 28 [31 favorites]

I really get why people feel both profoundly disappointed by OR encouraged by the masculinity thread, and I also encourage everyone reading this thread to have a look at that one. It reminds me strongly of the emotional labor Big Thread but like, not in the sense that you get to emerge with hard won insights. But it gave me a much clearer understanding of the problem and has made me a better listener to my male friends who e.g. bemoan the lack of spaces for dads or proliferation of spaces for moms only. In the past I would have at least thought to myself if not said "well, then maybe men should take responsibility for organizing some spaces themselves." Now....well, at least I'll focus on listening and building empathy, while understand why not every woman can do the same.
posted by heyforfour at 11:44 AM on July 28 [10 favorites]

Really good relevant thread on Bluesky, from @NeolithicSheep, trans dude & farmer. This isn't the whole thread; it and the comments are well worth reading.

There is also a widespread tendency to attribute any pro-social traits or behaviors any given man (defined broadly and inclusively) exhibits to him as an individual while attributing anti-social (or just annoying) things he does to his identity as a man/masculinity and like. What a fucking trap.

Because then when men (defined broadly etc etc) are left with confusion and struggles to define their identity there is no help for them outside of the right wing and conservatism which has a very clear and comforting vision for them.

Consider that rejecting toxic masculinity means building an identity in opposition to it, a pro-social and nurturing masculinity that builds community and connection, and that pro-social behaviors are just as masculine as anti-social ones.

But at this point in my life I'm [...] annoyed as fuck that when I take care of a tiny lamb people think that's because I'm a good person and when I'm angry that's because I'm a man and no. No absolutely not.

If I'm a man when I'm angry then I'm a man when I'm caring and kind. If I'm a man when I annoy you then I'm also a man when I do something you like. And that goes for every other man you know, regardless of transness, disability, race, religion, or sexuality.

posted by Pallas Athena at 11:56 AM on July 28 [21 favorites]

In 1995, women were just 1 percentage point more likely to say they were pro-choice than men. Today women are 14 points more likely to say they’re pro-choice—the highest margin on record.

Yikes. I know I live in an academic liberal bubble, but I don't think that characterizes the people I associate with.

As to the contrasting views of each side on what masculinity might mean... I guess I'll offer up that I've been interested/bemused by the repeated meme I see of the non-toxic masculinity triad being made of Bob Ross, Fred Rogers, and Steve Irwin. Levar Burton (see above) often gets brought up as an example, too. That's great, but I don't know how relatable they are for people under the age of 40 or 50. There are other examples out there, maybe worth thinking about.
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:13 PM on July 28 [1 favorite]

What is a masculine trait? Can a man be nurturing and supportive? I think if a man is to have value to society, the answer is yes. A man who is a mentor, a man who is a father, a man who is a big brother -- I don't think anyone would hear these descriptors and think, "Well, that's not very manly;" on the contrary, I think we tend to think that's what a man should be about. But a woman can be a mentor, can be a mother, can be a big sister, and I don't think anyone would say, "Well, that's bad; that's not what I think of when I think of a woman." They're the same thing.

So I wonder what traits we talk about that are specifically seen as masculine that we read as toxic. Maybe they are toxic! But if it makes anybody feel better, maybe they aren't specifically masculine, really; maybe they just look a certain way when men do them, or have a greater impact because of the power imbalance between men and women in our society. I know this is probably a very naive point of view, but I feel like it's a mistake to say, "Men are like this, and women are like this." If we accept that the behaviors we don't like and the behaviors we do like can exist in anyone, irrespective of gender, then I think it will be simpler to just address the behavior.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:18 PM on July 28 [7 favorites]

but isn't the very root of toxic masculinity the need to be destinct from the feminine?

I appreciate you voicing this, because it sort of gets at at least some of the reasons why this topic is hard for people to discuss. I'd be curious to read a well-researched piece on the etymology of the phrase - but I suspect (from my own, no doubt fallible, memory) there has been quite a bit of semantic shift here. Most recently by right-wing influencers saying something to the effect of "The crazy radical left thinks all masculinity is toxic - my guy, that means they hate you!" Which is mostly bunk, but there is also a kernel of truth there too. The star of the football team with a strong jawline who loves lifting weights and playing beer pong with his bros isn't the problem,* per se. The problem is that for a long time we lived (and in many ways, still live) in a society that was structured to reward a very specific expression of masculinity, and surprise surprise, many men for whom that expression of masculinity came naturally to began to not only think of themselves as superior to women but also other men (as many have pointed out, homophobia and misogyny are at least cousins if not siblings). Earlier discussions of toxic masculinity (if memory serves) were more nuanced and clear to connect it with larger structural problems (i.e. rape culture), but at least in the last few years I've seen it more loosely applied to stereotypical masculinity more broadly, which I don't think is particularly helpful - in an ideal world, the star of the football team would be no more popular and his masculinity deemed no more 'legitimate' as the theater nerd. That future is possible without demonizing the football star. The problem is the entitlement, homophobia, and misogyny - not the stereotypically masculine traits.

*And of course, good to point out that the men who inhabit a lot of the activities/aesthetics that get coded as hyper-masculine are more wide ranging than the stereotype. As a teacher, sure, I've encountered some jocks that fit the mold perfectly, but often these young men also have a niche interest that doesn't quite fit the mold - I'd still say it's not productive to reward one interest over the other as more 'progressive' or whatever.
posted by coffeecat at 12:25 PM on July 28 [16 favorites]

Perhaps we've become so attuned to the yelling we don't hear the whispers.

I agree. I think this is a useful POV when you combine it with the observations in, e.g., The Great Manliness Flip-Flop (also in The Atlantic).

The people that are trying most loudly to define masculinity venerate the image (Greatest Generation, mafioso omerta, cowboys, etc.) while inverting the behavior. They're not somehow emulating traditional "feminine virtues" - they are instead truly negating every value they claim to hold.

If there's something valuable in masculinity, traditional or otherwise, it's not going to come from people who are insulated from almost every hardship but think that they are martyrs to equality.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:09 PM on July 28 [4 favorites]

Surprised nobody's really said this yet... the problem is rooted in people thinking there's a masculinity or feminity. I gave this a lot of thought early in my transition. Every trait that was assigned to one could be found in the other... maybe the expression was different but there was an expression.

Best I can figure there's only nurturing life. Everyone does that, even Trump. He just nurtures his own life at the expense of everyone else. How wide is this circle? How skillful is the effort?

That's my 2 cents on the matter.
posted by kokaku at 1:25 PM on July 28 [6 favorites]

I remember when being bummed that you couldn't get laid meant you to learned to play guitar and started a bad punk band.
posted by East14thTaco at 1:26 PM on July 28 [11 favorites]

as a site we just had a long, detailed, nuanced discussion of exactly that problem

In that thread I posted a thoughtful comment based on the experiences of my autistic son in school. I hope it provides a lens on the early part of how our institutions betray our young people, because the version of feminism that they use is not a truly radical one and betrays the trust of young people, especially the most vulnerable.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:26 PM on July 28 [3 favorites]

It’s like Germaine Greer said:

Women have very little idea of how much men hate them.

She could have gone on to say that 'men have very little idea of how much they themselves, collectively and as individuals, hate women.

I don’t think we’re anywhere near coming to terms with that on the left, but the right is determined to reduce women and girls to a condition of abject slavery, both sexually and otherwise.
posted by jamjam at 1:26 PM on July 28 [4 favorites]

It's something I try to puzzle out as I try to think of why I am transmasculine - what do I mean that I "feel like a man"? I am confident that whatever that means, it does not mean "I feel like I have a different kind of morality than women do".

It's pleasantly interesting to see my own thoughts expressed by someone else. I'm a pretty "manly" man. I'm a power lifter*, I think fast cars and monster trucks are cool, hard rock and heavy metal, etc. So maybe it's a man thing?** But I also do almost all of the cooking for my family, like taking care of babies and kids, I'm not afraid to express my emotions and some of the other things are "supposed" to be bad at.

I given this a lot of thought for a very long time about how I know I'm a man (and a straight man at that). The best that I can come up with is, "I don't know, I just do." And I don't think it really matters that much, just be you.

*The sport has surprisingly feminist and body positive views.
**Or just a human thing, of course.
posted by VTX at 1:30 PM on July 28 [6 favorites]

Growing up in American culture, I've had to gradually learn to wean myself out of conflating cruelty with masculinity.

Personally, I don't believe that dominance games and power dynamics are fundamental to being masculine per se, but rather are a through-line in American culture to arbitrarily project hierarchical status.

Being "cool" requires a certain amount of dispassionate ruthlessness. I've said as much before, so many of our words of praise celebrate cruelty- "badass", "fierce", "pimp" , "OG", "killer", etc etc.

And I don't think in-group/out-group dynamics are an automatic thing, but are nurtured and fostered in our culture.

This really opens up what I consider "masculine". I don't really know, culturally speaking. When I hear people trying to define it, it comes off to me as variants of hacky takes like "women be shopping". Women can be competitive athletes. Men can be sensitive artists. As I get older, I feel like its less and less important to categorize people as "less than" because they don't adhere to a particular cultural stereotype.
posted by ishmael at 1:31 PM on July 28 [3 favorites]

What is it about society and socialisation that (many) men are channelled into regressive masculinity that makes the conservatives foreground that segment as key to the base? Why is it automatically and by default assumed that men want to be the worst versions of humanity? Power, right? So the GOP appeals to a base that believes it has a divine right to power, especially over women and women’s freedoms and choices. If that means toxic masculinity gets shamed, it is only right, because toxic masculinity deserves nothing else. It’s the root of societies many ills: rape, other GBV, coercion, shit workplaces, revanchist politics. Of course parties are divided by their views on gender and not gender itself. I mean, what is the inverse of that actually even saying? The views of gender is the very basis on what regressive and progressive each believe gender should be. So I don’t really get the point of the author’s distinction. Like we say patriarchy hurts men too, and toxic masculinity is one of the manifestations of that harm. But instead of seeing that for what it is, it is celebrated amongst gender essentialists as a right that men have. Which is nonsense. Almost all of gender norms are learnt, and if society can find a way past that to allow people just to be, boys,girls, theys and all, we might get out of false binaries that do more harm than just weak articles written to presidential campaign clickbait.
posted by 23yearlurker at 1:51 PM on July 28 [1 favorite]

>In 1995, women were just 1 percentage point more likely to say they were pro-choice than men. Today women are 14 points more likely to say they’re pro-choice—the highest margin on record.

I'd caution this is just one poll - according to Pew, the 2024 gap is 3 percent.
posted by wattle at 2:11 PM on July 28 [6 favorites]

Grunkle Stan gives Dipper the best explanation of non-toxic masculinity I've seen so far, at the tail end of an entire episode that deftly skewers the other, toxic kind.
posted by signal at 2:36 PM on July 28

When I think about masculinity, I think about my Dad, who is super manly in a lot of ways: he was a civil engineer who built power plants for a living, and his hobbies include repairing machinery and boating and watching the kinds of youtube videos where dudes blow things up. The house flooded, and he responded by making a six-foot-deep French drain because why not. People bring him stuff to fix and he can turn the missing part on his lathe. Need a tool? I don't care what it is, he's got it.

None of that is exclusive to men, of course, but given the general discourse on manliness in western society, he's pretty much nailing it.

But he's also one of the most gentle people I know, and he can endlessly listen to me tell him my troubles, and he does his best to do half the housework. He is genuinely distressed by cruelty to the point that he really hates movies which feature uncomfortable humour. He turned our laundry into a pottery room for my Mum, with a kiln and filters on the pipes to catch the clay, as a surprise while she was away one time. He's kind and his favourite thing is to be silly and make people laugh.

Like I kind of hate gender stuff to begin with, but if we must have masculinity and femininity (and it appears we must?) then can we just have masculinity as the activities and interests and competencies that we have traditionally coded as masculine, without all the toxic cruelty?
posted by joannemerriam at 2:55 PM on July 28 [6 favorites]

As a few people here have pointed out, toxic masculinity just seems to be about cruelty. Anything I could think to describe as toxic femininity is about cruelty too. I'd throw selfishness in as well.

Don't be cruel. Don't be selfish. Live and let live.
posted by ersatzsapience at 3:01 PM on July 28 [4 favorites]

I am the nightmare that they fear: I took a long look in the mirror seven years ago at the masculinity left in myself and took a pill to wash it away. When that wasn't enough, I told the doctors to cut it out with a knife. With several knives.

I love what remains.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:24 PM on July 28