Sometimes with a doctored image of Trump superimposed in the foreground
July 29, 2024 11:30 PM Subscribe
Racked by pain and enraptured by a right-wing miracle cure (NYT) (ungated). With Patriot Party News, Michael Chesebro found a sense of community, and a place where conspiracy theories could become real in the form of the “medbed.”
Is that the end of the article? I am very confused. Thought it just got weirdly cut off .
posted by freya_lamb at 1:38 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by freya_lamb at 1:38 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
I am not sure what else there is to say. The power of quackery is that if you say you're floating six inches off the ground and I agree, who is to come between us?
posted by Typhoon Jim at 3:04 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Typhoon Jim at 3:04 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
I feel like the attempt was to Isaac Chotiner them but didn't really at all deliver because instead of drawing attention to the absurd delusions it instead focused on just sad and in pain people who have developed a sense of community around their suffering in a online space. There was something like just three sentences pointing out the problematic exploitation and fraud parts.
If anything this could run as an advertisement for medbed and the online community pushing it and it probably will. No doubt they will now pull quotes and describe the medbed "as seen in the NY Times".
They could have at least said that vibrating beds were available and coin operated at cheap motels all along the route the couple travelled to get to the medbed facility.
posted by srboisvert at 3:15 AM on July 30, 2024 [12 favorites]
If anything this could run as an advertisement for medbed and the online community pushing it and it probably will. No doubt they will now pull quotes and describe the medbed "as seen in the NY Times".
They could have at least said that vibrating beds were available and coin operated at cheap motels all along the route the couple travelled to get to the medbed facility.
posted by srboisvert at 3:15 AM on July 30, 2024 [12 favorites]
"not a damning indicator"
I don't think they want a damning indicator. The angle of the story would seem to go for the clickbait angle, to get people to read and be interested, but not doubt at all. The author plays up the interesting parts of all the players, not just Chesebro's wife who sounds like she is trying to talk him out of this stuff but also the fellow who started the BS network that feeds all this stuff (Armour is portrayed not as a scam adjacent player but instead as a sort of business genius for figuring out how to get this going). It is basically a very elaborate version of the "time machine" from Napoleon Dynamite. No meaningful explanation or investigation of the people behind PPN at all. They are like ghosts online; not a clue of who they actually are or where they came from. "Punisher Dallas"?
FTFNYT with a red hot poker for not asking a single serious question about any of this.
posted by cybrcamper at 3:26 AM on July 30, 2024 [16 favorites]
I don't think they want a damning indicator. The angle of the story would seem to go for the clickbait angle, to get people to read and be interested, but not doubt at all. The author plays up the interesting parts of all the players, not just Chesebro's wife who sounds like she is trying to talk him out of this stuff but also the fellow who started the BS network that feeds all this stuff (Armour is portrayed not as a scam adjacent player but instead as a sort of business genius for figuring out how to get this going). It is basically a very elaborate version of the "time machine" from Napoleon Dynamite. No meaningful explanation or investigation of the people behind PPN at all. They are like ghosts online; not a clue of who they actually are or where they came from. "Punisher Dallas"?
FTFNYT with a red hot poker for not asking a single serious question about any of this.
posted by cybrcamper at 3:26 AM on July 30, 2024 [16 favorites]
but if you infuse the text with a little plain eyed distance and just report what the good people are doing, with no judgement, why, it becomes literature
oh my gosh, it's happenin to me, the writer of this comment on a site populated by liberal folk
posted by lalochezia at 3:46 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
oh my gosh, it's happenin to me, the writer of this comment on a site populated by liberal folk
posted by lalochezia at 3:46 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
Is that the end of the article? I am very confused. Thought it just got weirdly cut off .
Oh good, it's not just me.
I also tried to click the "ungated" link and it made me do 4 captchas and now I think I might be a robot.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:14 AM on July 30, 2024 [9 favorites]
Oh good, it's not just me.
I also tried to click the "ungated" link and it made me do 4 captchas and now I think I might be a robot.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:14 AM on July 30, 2024 [9 favorites]
Well, I thought the ending made perfect sense.
This is a guy in chronic pain who's been told that if he "believes" that this vibrating thing will cure him, it will. And he's the moderator of an online voice chat community that grew up around these things - and I think the community is even SPONSORED by these things. And when the nurse asks him if his back is starting to feel better - he doesn't say "yes it does", he says "I believe it does". He's not saying it does, he's trying to convince himself it does. He's got the whole community behind him and he's feeling obligated to not letting them down - at least that was my takeaway, and that's definitely an ending.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:02 AM on July 30, 2024 [19 favorites]
This is a guy in chronic pain who's been told that if he "believes" that this vibrating thing will cure him, it will. And he's the moderator of an online voice chat community that grew up around these things - and I think the community is even SPONSORED by these things. And when the nurse asks him if his back is starting to feel better - he doesn't say "yes it does", he says "I believe it does". He's not saying it does, he's trying to convince himself it does. He's got the whole community behind him and he's feeling obligated to not letting them down - at least that was my takeaway, and that's definitely an ending.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:02 AM on July 30, 2024 [19 favorites]
This is a guy in chronic pain who's been told that if he "believes" that this vibrating thing will cure him, it will.
A great general rule of thumb is that reality is the stuff that keeps happening whether or not you believe in it.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:18 AM on July 30, 2024 [8 favorites]
A great general rule of thumb is that reality is the stuff that keeps happening whether or not you believe in it.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:18 AM on July 30, 2024 [8 favorites]
I feel like this article could go a lot further in saying “this medbed thing is a scam that takes money from vulnerable people”.
I feel like a lot of NYT articles could go a lot further in accurately describing the MAGA thing. At least this one isn't likely to improve their chances of seizing power.
posted by Brachinus at 5:30 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
I feel like a lot of NYT articles could go a lot further in accurately describing the MAGA thing. At least this one isn't likely to improve their chances of seizing power.
posted by Brachinus at 5:30 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
“It’s almost like selling something,” Armour said, outlining the strategy behind Patriot Party News.
Almost. Almost.
posted by Naberius at 5:56 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
Almost. Almost.
posted by Naberius at 5:56 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
As pointed out upthread, the ending made perfect sense as literature. It's a fine, ambiguous-yet-hopeful ending for a fictional story about the nature of belief that prompts the audience to discuss their own interpretations of whether or not these so-called "med beds" actually work. But this isn't fiction!
These are all real people! You can find the webpage for Andrea's medbed spa. Google even autocompletes "John Baxter" with "med beds" and he even offers "easy financing" for those wanting to purchase his scammy products. There's no question that people are being hurt by this, whether they know it or not.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:03 AM on July 30, 2024 [13 favorites]
These are all real people! You can find the webpage for Andrea's medbed spa. Google even autocompletes "John Baxter" with "med beds" and he even offers "easy financing" for those wanting to purchase his scammy products. There's no question that people are being hurt by this, whether they know it or not.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:03 AM on July 30, 2024 [13 favorites]
I feel like this article could go a lot further in saying “this medbed thing is a scam that takes money from vulnerable people”. The article closes on somebody trying it and saying they believe it works, which is not a damning indicator.
The old tendency of the NYT to report damaging information about a person - such as a quack guru or wealthy con artist - in the main print section or the Science section and then kiss the same person's ass obsequiously in the Styles section has unfortunately infested the entire paper at this point.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:19 AM on July 30, 2024 [9 favorites]
The old tendency of the NYT to report damaging information about a person - such as a quack guru or wealthy con artist - in the main print section or the Science section and then kiss the same person's ass obsequiously in the Styles section has unfortunately infested the entire paper at this point.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 6:19 AM on July 30, 2024 [9 favorites]
This feels a little inside-baseball to me, but I'll say it anyway: as soon as I saw the byline, I knew the shape this piece was going to take.
Eli Saslow writes pieces about Americans dealing with the brokenness of our culture as it affects them (Seattle, Denver, Phoenix, all gift-linked for non-subscribers). His is a process of maximum empathy for the subject, and sometimes I think that can crowd out the critical distance I (and others upthread) might want to see in these pieces.
posted by IcarusFloats at 6:20 AM on July 30, 2024 [10 favorites]
Eli Saslow writes pieces about Americans dealing with the brokenness of our culture as it affects them (Seattle, Denver, Phoenix, all gift-linked for non-subscribers). His is a process of maximum empathy for the subject, and sometimes I think that can crowd out the critical distance I (and others upthread) might want to see in these pieces.
posted by IcarusFloats at 6:20 AM on July 30, 2024 [10 favorites]
As pointed out upthread, the ending made perfect sense as literature. It's a fine, ambiguous-yet-hopeful ending for a fictional story about the nature of belief that prompts the audience to discuss their own interpretations of whether or not these so-called "med beds" actually work.
This is such an excellent observation! It clarifies so much for me about how the news seems to work right now.
Long ago in metafilter years - by which I mean before the pandemic - we had a commenter, the Whelk, who used to talk a lot about the collapse of the USSR and how much public discourse there was about mysticism, psychics, aliens, etc. This type of piece gives me a lot of insight into how people in the media - who were smart enough not to believe in aliens, psychics or medbeds - did what they did.
What a shame for that poor guy. As someone with spinal stenosis and resulting daily pain (not as bad as his, but still life limiting) I really feel for him on that front, and it's such a shame that it is so hard for people to find friendship and solidarity in places that aren't filled with fantasy and bad ideas. (Also interesting to see this medbed idea move from Star Trek/Stargate into people's real beliefs.)
I also feel like it's the failure of the medical system - partly the failure to be affordable, but partly the failure to be proactive and helpful. This guy is in pain, there probably isn't any way to make him completely pain-free, but I bet that a diligent specialist could do a lot for him. Similarly, the people with strokes and dementia - in some ways there's not much anyone can do, but there are a lot of things that can make life better for the patient and their family, but most people can't access or afford them. No wonder you think about med-beds - you've got these extremely sad loss in your life and you can't access the things that could help you.
This world, which could be a paradise, we make into a hell.
posted by Frowner at 6:27 AM on July 30, 2024 [28 favorites]
This is such an excellent observation! It clarifies so much for me about how the news seems to work right now.
Long ago in metafilter years - by which I mean before the pandemic - we had a commenter, the Whelk, who used to talk a lot about the collapse of the USSR and how much public discourse there was about mysticism, psychics, aliens, etc. This type of piece gives me a lot of insight into how people in the media - who were smart enough not to believe in aliens, psychics or medbeds - did what they did.
What a shame for that poor guy. As someone with spinal stenosis and resulting daily pain (not as bad as his, but still life limiting) I really feel for him on that front, and it's such a shame that it is so hard for people to find friendship and solidarity in places that aren't filled with fantasy and bad ideas. (Also interesting to see this medbed idea move from Star Trek/Stargate into people's real beliefs.)
I also feel like it's the failure of the medical system - partly the failure to be affordable, but partly the failure to be proactive and helpful. This guy is in pain, there probably isn't any way to make him completely pain-free, but I bet that a diligent specialist could do a lot for him. Similarly, the people with strokes and dementia - in some ways there's not much anyone can do, but there are a lot of things that can make life better for the patient and their family, but most people can't access or afford them. No wonder you think about med-beds - you've got these extremely sad loss in your life and you can't access the things that could help you.
This world, which could be a paradise, we make into a hell.
posted by Frowner at 6:27 AM on July 30, 2024 [28 favorites]
A great general rule of thumb is that reality is the stuff that keeps happening whether or not you believe in it.
I used to think that, but now I kind of think 4chan doing chaos magic manifested Trump so idk.
Medbeds are obviously fake, but I’m looking at these wealthy toddler dads limping around Cobble Hill Park and thinking there’s an untapped market for them here and feeling a little sad because eventually someone who is not me will be taking their money.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:28 AM on July 30, 2024 [6 favorites]
I used to think that, but now I kind of think 4chan doing chaos magic manifested Trump so idk.
Medbeds are obviously fake, but I’m looking at these wealthy toddler dads limping around Cobble Hill Park and thinking there’s an untapped market for them here and feeling a little sad because eventually someone who is not me will be taking their money.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:28 AM on July 30, 2024 [6 favorites]
His is a process of maximum empathy for the subject, and sometimes I think that can crowd out the critical distance I (and others upthread) might want to see in these pieces.
There's nothing wrong with empathy and pulling punches because these are real people. But like the story was rushed. It desperately needs a coda about how everyone's doing three months later after the initial excitement had worn off. Is Michael really feeling better after his treatments? Is Andrea able to support herself after investing her life's savings into the spa? How about those FDA investigations? Has Baxter had to change any of his claims or retool how he promotes the beds?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:35 AM on July 30, 2024 [17 favorites]
There's nothing wrong with empathy and pulling punches because these are real people. But like the story was rushed. It desperately needs a coda about how everyone's doing three months later after the initial excitement had worn off. Is Michael really feeling better after his treatments? Is Andrea able to support herself after investing her life's savings into the spa? How about those FDA investigations? Has Baxter had to change any of his claims or retool how he promotes the beds?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:35 AM on July 30, 2024 [17 favorites]
RonButNotStupid, I had that same thought myself, and I went to go see if there were secondary pieces; sometimes Saslow gets to file updates to his pieces; here's his six-month update on the Phoenix story I posted upthread.
posted by IcarusFloats at 6:39 AM on July 30, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by IcarusFloats at 6:39 AM on July 30, 2024 [4 favorites]
I feel like this article could go a lot further in saying “this medbed thing is a scam that takes money from vulnerable people”.
I, on the other hand, feel that Saslow trusts the reader.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:52 AM on July 30, 2024 [6 favorites]
I, on the other hand, feel that Saslow trusts the reader.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:52 AM on July 30, 2024 [6 favorites]
Medbeds are an obvious grift, but other than the sociopolitics and aesthetics of those involved, how different are they from other alternative medicine practices such as, for example, chiro or Goop?
posted by meehawl at 7:16 AM on July 30, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by meehawl at 7:16 AM on July 30, 2024 [7 favorites]
Reading this story made me sad. Rereading it just now again made me sad.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:42 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Warren Terra at 7:42 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
I, on the other hand, feel that Saslow trusts the reader.
I feel like the media's defining mistake since 2016 is to trust that their audience doesn't need everything spelled out for them. That we're all reasonable people who live in the same reality and are all on the same page when it comes to subtext. Knowing that your readers can fill in the blanks so you don't have to be sully yourself by taking a position--that's basically the very definition of bubble right there.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:04 AM on July 30, 2024 [11 favorites]
I feel like the media's defining mistake since 2016 is to trust that their audience doesn't need everything spelled out for them. That we're all reasonable people who live in the same reality and are all on the same page when it comes to subtext. Knowing that your readers can fill in the blanks so you don't have to be sully yourself by taking a position--that's basically the very definition of bubble right there.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:04 AM on July 30, 2024 [11 favorites]
First the My Pillow Guy. Now Medbeds. Something tells me that what the American right wing really needs a good night's sleep... Thanks, Obama!
posted by zaelic at 8:05 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by zaelic at 8:05 AM on July 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
> A great general rule of thumb is that reality is the stuff that keeps happening whether or not you believe in it.
okay but that phrase was coined by someone who to the end of his days could not shake the belief that in 1974 while recovering from oral surgery he was shot by an information-rich pink lazer beam from space that told him that all time between the 1st century c.e. and now was a spurious invention of a sinister demiurge as documented in the nag hammadi scrolls, that the empire never ended, that the satellite that shot that beam was part of a vast active living intelligence system consisting of everything from space platforms to aluminum cans found crushed in the gutter, that jesus was part of this vast active living intelligence system as well, that the system was sent by the real creator god who the demiurge, a fake creator god, had willfully forgotten, and that evidence of the existence of the real god, his vast active living intelligence system, and the miraculous campaign against the demiurge and for the liberation of the human race from the demiurge’s black iron prison and likewise its spurious time could be found in the movie the man who fell to earth starring david bowie, and also in the recordings of brian eno.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:37 AM on July 30, 2024 [12 favorites]
okay but that phrase was coined by someone who to the end of his days could not shake the belief that in 1974 while recovering from oral surgery he was shot by an information-rich pink lazer beam from space that told him that all time between the 1st century c.e. and now was a spurious invention of a sinister demiurge as documented in the nag hammadi scrolls, that the empire never ended, that the satellite that shot that beam was part of a vast active living intelligence system consisting of everything from space platforms to aluminum cans found crushed in the gutter, that jesus was part of this vast active living intelligence system as well, that the system was sent by the real creator god who the demiurge, a fake creator god, had willfully forgotten, and that evidence of the existence of the real god, his vast active living intelligence system, and the miraculous campaign against the demiurge and for the liberation of the human race from the demiurge’s black iron prison and likewise its spurious time could be found in the movie the man who fell to earth starring david bowie, and also in the recordings of brian eno.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:37 AM on July 30, 2024 [12 favorites]
A great general rule of thumb is that reality is the stuff that keeps happening whether or not you believe in it.
As a famous article said, "pain is an opinion." It's a physical experience, but mediated through the brain. That doesn't mean you can just wish or will or pray or meditate pain away, but it does mean that there isn't a clear objective "pain level" that can be measured and tracked from the outside using reliable tools. There is a malleable subjective, or even pre-subjective, element. (During my last bout of really nasty lower-back pain, I could actually feel my experience of that pain changing subtly as my subconscious assimilated that the agony when I stood up from a chair from the waist rather than the hips was not actually connected to a catastrophic emergency injury. I still did not want it, it was still awful, but it felt more like "here is this thunderstorm bursting overhead" as opposed to "if I don't stop moving this instant my back will tear apart!!!!")
For that reason, it's hard to get too upset about trying woo for pain relief if (a) it's not diverting you from more effective treatment and (b) it's not hurting you (including financially!) or others in other ways. With those very important caveats, for chronic pain especially, we're talking about something that science really has not adequately addressed and may be applying a misguided paradigm to, so who cares if it's woo if it gives you some relief. The problem, of course, is that there are plenty of scams that fail (a) or (b).
posted by praemunire at 8:41 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
As a famous article said, "pain is an opinion." It's a physical experience, but mediated through the brain. That doesn't mean you can just wish or will or pray or meditate pain away, but it does mean that there isn't a clear objective "pain level" that can be measured and tracked from the outside using reliable tools. There is a malleable subjective, or even pre-subjective, element. (During my last bout of really nasty lower-back pain, I could actually feel my experience of that pain changing subtly as my subconscious assimilated that the agony when I stood up from a chair from the waist rather than the hips was not actually connected to a catastrophic emergency injury. I still did not want it, it was still awful, but it felt more like "here is this thunderstorm bursting overhead" as opposed to "if I don't stop moving this instant my back will tear apart!!!!")
For that reason, it's hard to get too upset about trying woo for pain relief if (a) it's not diverting you from more effective treatment and (b) it's not hurting you (including financially!) or others in other ways. With those very important caveats, for chronic pain especially, we're talking about something that science really has not adequately addressed and may be applying a misguided paradigm to, so who cares if it's woo if it gives you some relief. The problem, of course, is that there are plenty of scams that fail (a) or (b).
posted by praemunire at 8:41 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
dang though it’s been a while since i’ve excavated all that pkd lore stored deep in my brain and/or soul so i may have gotten some details wrong.
anyway yes this is all very sad bullshit peddled by creeps who’ve taken cynical advantage of the hopes and dreams and unfulfilled/unfulfillable needs and desperate desires of people who simply want to believe, it’s something like the fake angel buried by a new mall in that one episode of the simpsons, but also i tend to raise an eyebrow at anyone who believes that they’ve got a direct line to solid knowledge of consensus intersubjective reality. that way lies the misguided scientism of the new atheist movement, that road leads one to smug wrongness, that path annoys many and convinces no one
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:46 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
anyway yes this is all very sad bullshit peddled by creeps who’ve taken cynical advantage of the hopes and dreams and unfulfilled/unfulfillable needs and desperate desires of people who simply want to believe, it’s something like the fake angel buried by a new mall in that one episode of the simpsons, but also i tend to raise an eyebrow at anyone who believes that they’ve got a direct line to solid knowledge of consensus intersubjective reality. that way lies the misguided scientism of the new atheist movement, that road leads one to smug wrongness, that path annoys many and convinces no one
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:46 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
I wonder what you genuinely believe and how it applies to tfa
posted by Reverend John at 8:59 AM on July 30, 2024
posted by Reverend John at 8:59 AM on July 30, 2024
(love you, btw, and wouldn't trade you for anybody, except for the above mentioned Whelk or The Quidnunc Kid)
posted by Reverend John at 9:07 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Reverend John at 9:07 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
that basically philip k. dick’s “reality is the stuff that doesn’t go away when you stop believing in it” line isn’t a great approach vis a vis debunking delusions, both in terms of persuading the victims and in terms of successfully identifying what is or is not a scam, and that it’s necessary to instead take a tack that diligently avoids saying or even faintly implying that the debunker has anything like a direct line to objective reality. which is to say that it’s not possible to verify what does or does not go away when you stop believing in it, because, among other reasons, no one can never quite be sure about whether or not they’re successfully disbelieving all the things. and so you can’t never be quite sure that the stuff that hasn’t gone away isn’t a side-effect of belief.
probably the correct strategy — which has been deployed by a goodly number of people in this thread — is to lead with compassion, curiosity, and a genuine desire to better understand other people and i guess further than that to strive to understand the capital-o other better, even knowing that one can’t ever actually meaningfully understand alterity.
w/r/t what i believe, it is indeed off-topic for this thread. probably the closest i’ve come to discussing it on metafilter is this comment, which, incidentally, is the only thing that comes up when i google for “little bugs dig in the mud.”
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:20 AM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
probably the correct strategy — which has been deployed by a goodly number of people in this thread — is to lead with compassion, curiosity, and a genuine desire to better understand other people and i guess further than that to strive to understand the capital-o other better, even knowing that one can’t ever actually meaningfully understand alterity.
w/r/t what i believe, it is indeed off-topic for this thread. probably the closest i’ve come to discussing it on metafilter is this comment, which, incidentally, is the only thing that comes up when i google for “little bugs dig in the mud.”
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:20 AM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
It's all fun and games to trust that the reader can figure out the efficacy of magical rejuvinative space-beds for themselves, but the New York Times has now written about Trump's "you'll never have to vote again" comments on two separate occasions and in both articles they seem to be leaving it to the reader to decide whether Trump actually meant it or not and whether or not having any more elections is even a bad thing.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:39 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:39 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
I had a feeling this wasn’t going to be “hard-hitting investigative journalism” by the time I got to the unquestioning description of Andrea Stimson as a “wellness coach.” Sure enough, her Instagram is littered with the deceptive “before and after” comparisons required of BODI (formerly BeachBody) MLMers.
It was pretty clear from there that this writer wasn’t going to be critical of right-wing quackery.
If he really had maximum empathy for the desperately-ill marks he writes about, he wouldn’t be tacitly propping up the scams that are bankrupting them.
posted by armeowda at 9:52 AM on July 30, 2024 [4 favorites]
It was pretty clear from there that this writer wasn’t going to be critical of right-wing quackery.
If he really had maximum empathy for the desperately-ill marks he writes about, he wouldn’t be tacitly propping up the scams that are bankrupting them.
posted by armeowda at 9:52 AM on July 30, 2024 [4 favorites]
How are Baxter and Andrea and others involved in this medbed stuff not under investigation? Isn't this textbook fraud? You could literally replace "medbed" with "snake oil", it's that blatant.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:54 AM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:54 AM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
The way the laws are currently written, as long as she says the stuff about it not being FDA approved, she’s fine. Witness the supplements aisle, podcast sponsorships, and MLM schemes. And the entire field of chiropracty.
posted by hydropsyche at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
w/r/t what i believe, ...
The problem with your current incarnation on this site is that you've leaned way too hard into your username - spiky contrarianism simply requires fewer words if it's to work properly.
Should you ever decide to reincarnate might I suggest "Don DeLillo's Synthetic Vagina" or "Joan Didion's Frown of Mild Concern at the Emergency Lights at the End of the Street" as possible usernames?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:40 AM on July 30, 2024
The problem with your current incarnation on this site is that you've leaned way too hard into your username - spiky contrarianism simply requires fewer words if it's to work properly.
Should you ever decide to reincarnate might I suggest "Don DeLillo's Synthetic Vagina" or "Joan Didion's Frown of Mild Concern at the Emergency Lights at the End of the Street" as possible usernames?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:40 AM on July 30, 2024
i’ve got my next username already queued up and all i am authorized to tell you at this moment is that it is real banger.
but anyway i’m not being contrarian (he contradicted) and i really do think that stepping back and embracing a sense of doubt is a better way at addressing the problem of hucksters and scammers and their credulous victims than is anything involving certainty. the shit of it is is that this nyt article kind of (but only kind of) does this well, but also that this sort of discussion is probably not something that newspaper articles should be doing at all — the medium/genre isn’t suited for it.
fortunately metafilter comment threads can do it pretty well, so good job us i guess.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:49 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
but anyway i’m not being contrarian (he contradicted) and i really do think that stepping back and embracing a sense of doubt is a better way at addressing the problem of hucksters and scammers and their credulous victims than is anything involving certainty. the shit of it is is that this nyt article kind of (but only kind of) does this well, but also that this sort of discussion is probably not something that newspaper articles should be doing at all — the medium/genre isn’t suited for it.
fortunately metafilter comment threads can do it pretty well, so good job us i guess.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:49 AM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
Back in 2016, Hillary Clinton made a bunch of references to the book "Bowling Alone" and tried to discuss an epidemic of loneliness as the driver of a lot of the sickness in our society, both in terms of conspiracy theory politics and in terms of addiction and "deaths of despair". She had to be very careful how she talked about it, because it's easy to come off as condescending. And she also didn't want to sound too therapy-speak about it, and anyway it's not clear what role the government should really have in solving that problem, but....
She hinted now and then that she thought we needed to do a lot more community building, a lot more reaching out to people and inviting them to participate in things. About how the decline of churches and Elks lodges and dinner parties and so on has left people isolated, and we maybe need new civic institutions to draw them back in.
This article reminds me of that argument, which I haven't really heard anyone making since she left the stage. This article makes me think, you know who does reach out to people, make them feel valued, and ask them to do things? Scammers. And sales people but especially scammers. They prey on lonely people by being friendly.
So much of right wing politics these days is just grifters grifting, and we'd all be better off if they found fewer marks. Maybe Hillary Clinton was onto something.
So I guess I like the article for making me think these maybe-productive thoughts. But if that was the point, I do wish they'd have spelled it out a little more. Because that ending was too sad. This poor guy, already suffering, is clearly going to be taken for all he's worth by the friendly grifters who've surrounded him. Many readers can see that, but he can't, and that's not just literary irony. That's a serious bummer. Let's propose some solutions so that there's at least hope for guys like this in the future. He needs to be able to find a healthier community to join.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:11 AM on July 30, 2024 [13 favorites]
She hinted now and then that she thought we needed to do a lot more community building, a lot more reaching out to people and inviting them to participate in things. About how the decline of churches and Elks lodges and dinner parties and so on has left people isolated, and we maybe need new civic institutions to draw them back in.
This article reminds me of that argument, which I haven't really heard anyone making since she left the stage. This article makes me think, you know who does reach out to people, make them feel valued, and ask them to do things? Scammers. And sales people but especially scammers. They prey on lonely people by being friendly.
So much of right wing politics these days is just grifters grifting, and we'd all be better off if they found fewer marks. Maybe Hillary Clinton was onto something.
So I guess I like the article for making me think these maybe-productive thoughts. But if that was the point, I do wish they'd have spelled it out a little more. Because that ending was too sad. This poor guy, already suffering, is clearly going to be taken for all he's worth by the friendly grifters who've surrounded him. Many readers can see that, but he can't, and that's not just literary irony. That's a serious bummer. Let's propose some solutions so that there's at least hope for guys like this in the future. He needs to be able to find a healthier community to join.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:11 AM on July 30, 2024 [13 favorites]
Oh, I love talking about the community angle! I actually have a theory that one of the drivers of right-wing extremism among adolescent males is a lack of meaningful connections to their communities, and in the U.S., some of that lack of connection is driven by a lack of mobility affordances. Our urban planning and transportation systems are so designed around personal vehicle ownership that young people just don't get the chance to get out and engage with community on a meaningful level anymore. And I think the internet has in many ways supplanted knowing your neighbors with knowing weirdos online who really want you to care about whether or not companies like Sweet Baby Inc are turning your video games gay. This theory likely needs more research, but there is a good body of evidence about affordances and terrorism and incel culture , so I guess I'm vibing with the comments above about loneliness and empathy and suggesting we can expanding our thinking to how we've structured and designed a world that plays into things. I think about all this sometimes when I interact with my neighbors' three sons. Thankfully, she gives the boys a fair bit of leeway to wander as they please.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:40 AM on July 30, 2024 [12 favorites]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:40 AM on July 30, 2024 [12 favorites]
Very frustrating article, thanks to those upthread for explaining why I was mistaken, expecting this particular NYTimes article/author to be hard-hitting journalism.
posted by Rash at 1:46 PM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Rash at 1:46 PM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
This poor guy, already suffering, is clearly going to be taken for all he's worth by the friendly grifters who've surrounded him.
But that's not necessarily the outcome! Three days after his treatments, isn't this the kind of guy who'd realize he's still in pain, and that he's been conned? A Paul Harvey-style 'Rest of the Story' epilogue is required here.
posted by Rash at 1:54 PM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
But that's not necessarily the outcome! Three days after his treatments, isn't this the kind of guy who'd realize he's still in pain, and that he's been conned? A Paul Harvey-style 'Rest of the Story' epilogue is required here.
posted by Rash at 1:54 PM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
isn't this the kind of guy who'd realize he's still in pain, and that he's been conned?
I think we can see from the last lines of the article that this isn't going to happen:
The "kind of guy who realizes he's been conned" is a very rare kind. He has to have such healthy self esteem that he can admit he was wrong about something important without feeling ashamed. And he has to have enough other healthy relationships that he does not mind ditching his new "friends." In a case like this, he also has to have enough other things in his life to look forward to with hope that he can afford to give up the hope that this idea brought him. But that kind of person, with friends and confidence and a future he's excited about, isn't as vulnerable to being swindled in the first place. (Even those of us who are lucky enough to have those things right may go through times in our lives when we don't have them, and are more vulnerable.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:25 PM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
I think we can see from the last lines of the article that this isn't going to happen:
“Is your back starting to feel better at all?”The more desperate you are, the harder it is to admit (even to yourself) that you've been conned. He's doing what most con victims do, doubling down. And that's why he's going to lose everything. It sucks. But anyone can be conned, and almost everyone reacts this way.
He shifted in the bed and stared up at the ceiling, trying to believe, working to align his mind with the right frequencies.
“You know what?” he said, after a moment. “I think it does.”
The "kind of guy who realizes he's been conned" is a very rare kind. He has to have such healthy self esteem that he can admit he was wrong about something important without feeling ashamed. And he has to have enough other healthy relationships that he does not mind ditching his new "friends." In a case like this, he also has to have enough other things in his life to look forward to with hope that he can afford to give up the hope that this idea brought him. But that kind of person, with friends and confidence and a future he's excited about, isn't as vulnerable to being swindled in the first place. (Even those of us who are lucky enough to have those things right may go through times in our lives when we don't have them, and are more vulnerable.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:25 PM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
Anyway, pain is a psychological thing as much as a physiological one. The placebo effect can be really strong. So he probably DID feel less pain after the treatment. All kinds of things work to reduce pain, at least temporarily. Basically anything you believe will work. This probably does too!
But it's not going to fix his disability. And the placebo effect pain relief he gets is just going to make him invest more time and money in something that is not going to repay his investment.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:35 PM on July 30, 2024
But it's not going to fix his disability. And the placebo effect pain relief he gets is just going to make him invest more time and money in something that is not going to repay his investment.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:35 PM on July 30, 2024
Since the brain mediates our conscious experience of pain, placebos *can* sort of work, but there’s no reason they would cost money other than scams. People can just meditate and work on controlling the pain that way. I’ve had back pain for 30 years and it absolutely varies with not just physical inputs like sitting too long, but with my mood. And yeah, chiropractic is bullshit*. Based on my anecdotal experience, so are acupuncture and some other “ancient wisdom” cures, but if you aren’t paying for them, I say go for it.
* for some reason the licensed massage therapist attached to a local chiropractic practice is fucking amazing, but I cannot figure out how to leave a web review without endorsing the whole office, so it’ll remain my little secret.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:48 PM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
* for some reason the licensed massage therapist attached to a local chiropractic practice is fucking amazing, but I cannot figure out how to leave a web review without endorsing the whole office, so it’ll remain my little secret.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:48 PM on July 30, 2024 [1 favorite]
The reason I thought it was cut off was there was no explanation of the circumstances by which the writer came to know this person and follow their journey. What was the purpose of the piece at the outset? Investigate medbeds? Surface stories from right wing online communities? What's the angle here? It feels extremely underdeveloped as a piece of journalism, whether investigatory or as general human interest. I don't get it.
posted by freya_lamb at 3:50 PM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by freya_lamb at 3:50 PM on July 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
He has to have such healthy self esteem...
Well, or the reverse.
"This was a scam, and I fell for it because I am stupid, a loser nobody will ever like, I deserve bad things, and this is what happens when I think I might change anything."
*cough*
Not that I'm speaking from experience, of course. No, no, I am flawless and always have been.
posted by aramaic at 9:32 PM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
Well, or the reverse.
"This was a scam, and I fell for it because I am stupid, a loser nobody will ever like, I deserve bad things, and this is what happens when I think I might change anything."
*cough*
Not that I'm speaking from experience, of course. No, no, I am flawless and always have been.
posted by aramaic at 9:32 PM on July 30, 2024 [2 favorites]
> This is a guy in chronic pain who's been told that if he "believes" that this vibrating thing will cure him, it will.
A great general rule of thumb is that reality is the stuff that keeps happening whether or not you believe in it.
True, but not germane to the point I was making.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:53 AM on July 31, 2024
A great general rule of thumb is that reality is the stuff that keeps happening whether or not you believe in it.
True, but not germane to the point I was making.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:53 AM on July 31, 2024
As a famous article said, "pain is an opinion." It's a physical experience, but mediated through the brain. That doesn't mean you can just wish or will or pray or meditate pain away, but it does mean that there isn't a clear objective "pain level" that can be measured and tracked from the outside using reliable tools.
Comments like this and the "pain is a psychological thing as much as a physiological one" are kind of dangerous if you asked me. It's 100% true that medical science has no way of accurately measuring pain yet, but that doesn't mean that it's all psychological or that any random thing will fix physical pain, nor will just 'believing in yourself'.
Why on earth would we accept comments like this about pain, but disbelieve in made-up COVID or other vaccine cures? There was definitely points when the cause and medical cure for those was unknown. Physical sickness has a psychological effect too. That's why some people just power through it rather than seeking medical attention.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:22 AM on August 2, 2024
Comments like this and the "pain is a psychological thing as much as a physiological one" are kind of dangerous if you asked me. It's 100% true that medical science has no way of accurately measuring pain yet, but that doesn't mean that it's all psychological or that any random thing will fix physical pain, nor will just 'believing in yourself'.
Why on earth would we accept comments like this about pain, but disbelieve in made-up COVID or other vaccine cures? There was definitely points when the cause and medical cure for those was unknown. Physical sickness has a psychological effect too. That's why some people just power through it rather than seeking medical attention.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:22 AM on August 2, 2024
I said pain is both physiological AND psychological, and caviar2d2 said, in the paper you quoted, "That doesn't mean you can just wish or will or pray or meditate pain away."
So I think no one made the claim that you're disputing.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:39 PM on August 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
So I think no one made the claim that you're disputing.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:39 PM on August 3, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:52 AM on August 4, 2024
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