Kamala Harris Campaign: Week 2
July 31, 2024 11:17 AM Subscribe

We'll find out who won the veepstakes next week: Kamala Harris to appear with running mate in Philadelphia on Tuesday, Aug. 6 (Guardian link). Meanwhile in her Atlanta rally Harris tells Trump to 'Say it to my face' (Guardian link).

More Than 100 Silicon Valley Investors Pledge to Support Kamala Harris (NYT gift link)

Business is Buzzing Again for the Meme Makers of the Left (NYT gift link)

Previous Kamala Harris FPP

posted by needled (869 comments total) 44 users marked this as a favorite

Week… 2?
posted by Artw at 11:21 AM on July 31 [31 favorites]

We all suffer from Lance Bass's "it's been a month" re: the start of Kamala Harris's campaign.

(All jokes aside, we are in the second calendar week. Or is this a Pong 2 joke I'm missing?)
posted by brook horse at 11:24 AM on July 31

Ha - I was just about to hit "post" on my own "Week 2" post!

Have some fun links I turned up instead:

AP Poll: 8 in 10 Democrats satisfied with Harris after Biden drops out

Beyonce's Single "Freedom" is up more than 16,000% in sales after Harris used it in an ad.

Trump's nephew Fred says he is supporting Harris.

Also: tonight, Harris will be speaking in Houston at an event sponsored by the Sigma Gamma Rho Black sorority - the same night that Trump is in Chicago addressing the National Association of Black Journalists. That could make for an interesting compare-and-contrast tomorrow morning.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:24 AM on July 31 [36 favorites]

Former President Trump Speaks at NABJ Conference: Former President and Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump speaks at the National Association of Black Journalists convention in Chicago. [C-SPAN]

Ok this looks like it's going to get hot fast.

It's so cringe-worthy already, I'm not sure i an stand to watch. i hope the actual journalists in the room are given the opportunity to go hard at him, I mean, he already uttered "black jobs" and it's just started.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:24 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]

"Week 2" as in second calendar week. It does feel it's been longer than that.
posted by needled at 11:27 AM on July 31

Yeah, if you're not watching his interview--well, be glad. It's bad.
posted by mittens at 11:27 AM on July 31

Kamala Harris Campaign: Week 2

My scrolling finger thanks you.
posted by The Bellman at 11:28 AM on July 31 [12 favorites]

i hope the actual journalists in the room are given the opportunity to go hard at him, I mean, he already uttered "black jobs" and it's just started.

I understand he answered “why should be people trust you” with basically “fuck you” so that’s going very well.
posted by Artw at 11:29 AM on July 31 [12 favorites]

"Week 2" as in second calendar week. It does feel it's been longer than that.

It feels much longer… but for once mostly in a good way.
posted by Artw at 11:29 AM on July 31 [4 favorites]

Yeah, if you're not watching his interview--well, be glad. It's bad.

"Bad" for whom? (I am watching, BTW)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:29 AM on July 31

Kamala Harris Wipes Out Trump’s Swing-State Lead in Election Dead Heat :P
posted by kliuless at 11:32 AM on July 31 [13 favorites]

"Bad" for whom?

Across America, viewers are cringing so hard it's causing vertebral damage.
posted by mittens at 11:32 AM on July 31 [12 favorites]

I am half expecting MAGA supporters to start showing up with therapy boots and bandaged toes now, Trump is shooting himself in the foot so much with this interview. (livestream here)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:35 AM on July 31 [12 favorites]

Bluesky thread (closed, unfortunately)
posted by Artw at 11:36 AM on July 31

'There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.'
- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
posted by thecincinnatikid at 11:39 AM on July 31 [37 favorites]

I find it eternally infuriating that "centrist" is a category that includes people who say students are the Klan and apparently this gets no pushback at all from anyone in power and is considered 100% great, good, sensible, and reasonable.

But saying "Israel shouldn't commit genocide" is so far beyond the pale that there is near universal agreement that those words would be the end of any chance of election.

Can we, and I know this is a crazy thought, maybe give college kids in America the same degree of cowering fearful deference that the worst genocidal monsters in the world get?

Could we, and I know this is totally bonkers, maybe have a Democratic Party that exists in such a way that calling progressive students Klansment is the end of THEIR political career?

But no. Apparently being a malicious liar and scumbag about students is a ticket straight to the top of the political hierarchy.

And of course, god fucking forbid that someone who wants to demolish pubic education be criticized or censured.

I have such emotional whiplash these days. The Democrats seem to be flipping back and forth between seeming kind of cool to reminding me of why I hate them almost as much as I do the Republicans.
posted by sotonohito at 11:39 AM on July 31 [35 favorites]

Meanwhile Josh Shapiro, who has been a governor for a year and a half, has reiterated his aggressive support for cutting corporate taxes.

This dude is so not right for the moment and I dearly hope the Harris campaign can see that.
posted by Gadarene at 11:40 AM on July 31 [48 favorites]

And there, happily, is the UAW endorsement. Way to keep us guessing, Shawn.
posted by The Bellman at 11:40 AM on July 31 [11 favorites]

”Bad" for whom?

Dipshit just said Democrats support post-birth abortion and that “everybody” wanted abortion rights to be left up to the states. And he just called one of the interviewers rude and nasty. So there’s that…
posted by darkstar at 11:41 AM on July 31 [8 favorites]

... the fuck is a post birth abortion. Isn't that just, like, killing somebody?
posted by Justinian at 11:42 AM on July 31 [31 favorites]

lol. Ha! Trump appears unwilling to say that JD Vance is "ready on day one." He emphasizes that, in the election, the choice of a VP makes no difference
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]

yeah, whatever 7 dimensional triangulation they are thinking about with shapiro is not gonna fly. it will let the air out of a LOT of youth volunteers. of the swing states, PA is, in my opinion, much more of a lock without help.

the other shortlisters have said some ganky things but shapiro is toxic on human rights. I really hope they don't footgun this.
posted by lalochezia at 11:43 AM on July 31 [12 favorites]

I'll say, it's such an interesting, refreshing experience to watch Trump before a hostile audience.
posted by mittens at 11:43 AM on July 31 [46 favorites]

... the fuck is a post birth abortion. Isn't that just, like, killing somebody?

Yes. Yes, it is.

And one of the journalists attempted to point that out. I'm not sure if it's that or another statement that prompted Trump to accuse one of the speakers of treating him "rudely". To great consternation from the crowd....

....Just as they did when I was typing that just now and Trump said that Harris hadn't passed her bar exam. MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN now I want a debate.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:45 AM on July 31 [14 favorites]

Maybe he is too old and should withdraw from the race.
posted by Artw at 11:46 AM on July 31 [33 favorites]

This Trump interview in Chicago is bonkers.
posted by kensington314 at 11:46 AM on July 31 [5 favorites]

Wow Trump touting that he "aced" the Montreal Cognitive Assessment hits different now that I give it regularly.
posted by brook horse at 11:47 AM on July 31 [51 favorites]

Maybe he is too old and should withdraw from the race.

Hey, he did go on record in this conference to say that he would take a cognitive test....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:47 AM on July 31 [2 favorites]

Man this interview makes me glad Joe Biden walked away. Trump is a lot of things, a lot of shades of delusional and toxic and lost marbles, but Joe Biden could not have campaigned against this guy.
posted by kensington314 at 11:47 AM on July 31 [12 favorites]

hope the actual journalists in the room are given the opportunity to go hard at him

I'm sure we can count on Harris Faulkner to really get up in his grill.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 11:47 AM on July 31 [3 favorites]

Trump 2024: Ham Sandwiches Will Be Affordable Again
posted by mittens at 11:48 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Points at a room full of Black journalists: "And remember, [immigrants] are taking your jobs."
posted by kensington314 at 11:50 AM on July 31 [4 favorites]

I tried to not get attached to anyone on the shortlist so I couldn't be disappointed, but man I hope she picks tim walz
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 11:51 AM on July 31 [35 favorites]

Is this a Trump thread or a Harris thread?
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:51 AM on July 31 [12 favorites]

(C-SPAN version of the NABJ conference)
posted by box at 11:52 AM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Sometimes fudging a little on categories is okay to enjoy a clown tripping and eating shit.
posted by Artw at 11:52 AM on July 31 [28 favorites]

but man I hope she picks tim walz

As long as that doesn't upend the progress made in Minnesota -- we've got a good thing going despite awful neighbors, I'd like it to stay that way and not collapse due to a power vacuum.
posted by AzraelBrown at 11:54 AM on July 31 [8 favorites]

As long as that doesn't upend the progress made in Minnesota -- we've got a good thing going despite awful neighbors, I'd like it to stay that way and not collapse due to a power vacuum.

My understanding is that the Lieutenant Governor is great and would actually be the first Native American woman to be governor, if Walz were to step down.
posted by Gadarene at 11:56 AM on July 31 [31 favorites]

You guys have a good Lt Gov too!
posted by kensington314 at 11:57 AM on July 31 [7 favorites]

CNBC: "UAW union endorses Vice President Kamala Harris for president over Trump"

AP News: "UAW endorses Harris, giving her blue-collar firepower in industrial states"

New York Times: "Autoworkers Union Endorses Kamala Harris for President. The United Automobile Workers had backed President Biden but did not immediately endorse the vice president. Ms. Harris will rally with U.A.W. members in Detroit next week."
posted by cashman at 11:59 AM on July 31 [19 favorites]

For the time being I will delude myself into believing that Shawn Fain was holding out for an assurance that it would not be Shapiro.
posted by kensington314 at 12:02 PM on July 31 [12 favorites]

Is this a Trump thread or a Harris thread?

Fair cop.

Although I'm entertaining myself by thinking about how Harris is going to respond to some of those sound bites in an event tonight in Houston, one sponsored by the Sigma Gamma Rho Black sorority.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:02 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

"I’m stunned at how horrible this is," says Karen Attiah, who quit as co-chair of the NABJ convention after it was announced Trump would speak to the group. [@w7voa | Mastodon]

Edit to add: Trump address to Black journalist convention prompts co-chair Karen Attiah to quit [CNBC]
posted by mazola at 12:03 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

I imagine she’ll get something out of responding to some of his weirder comments about her, yes.
posted by Artw at 12:03 PM on July 31

Sorry the UAW endorsement was reported upthread.
posted by cashman at 12:04 PM on July 31

As long as that doesn't upend the progress made in Minnesota -- we've got a good thing going despite awful neighbors, I'd like it to stay that way and not collapse due to a power vacuum.

Yes. My opinion on Walz makes me feel bad as a leftist who goes to protests and does mutual aid, because I think he's a pretty good governor. I think that he has a pretty fine line to walk and he has had to do some things that don't align with [what I believe are] his values because of limited political capital and the red/blue city/outstate divide here, which is very pronounced. In a way, I'm angrier that he vetoed the Lyft drivers' bill than that he called in the National Guard even though obviously the National Guard, because I feel like he had more political capital to do the right thing on the drivers' bill.

The thing is, I don't think he would stand up for universal free school lunches and trans rights if he didn't actually believe in those things - many, many Democrats waffle on those.

I have been in Minnesota for a while now and I've seen a bunch of governors. Within the "what can a governor be like" framework, he's been the best one. Unlike Minneapolis's trash mayor Jacob Frey, I think he did his best during the pandemic and I think he genuinely has actual morals and values. I don't think he operates according to expediency and cronyism, like Frey does. I do think that he is not in constant rebellion against the constraints of his political capital as we would like to see, but also, we're talking about politicians in the United States - just by not being a bloodthirsty union-crusher he's better than like 80% of them.

On the other hand, I think Minnesotans are going to be fucking stoked if our guy is VP, and I think that will carry over for Flanagan, and really, I think she does a good job too and has the presence and manner to win on her own.

I hope that elevation to national politics doesn't ruin him.
posted by Frowner at 12:04 PM on July 31 [38 favorites]

I know it's not a Trump thread and I don't want to derail, but Fox Host Jesse Waters Says Men Who Vote For Women ‘Transition' to Women.

"Weird" doesn't even begin to cover this.
posted by Slothrup at 12:05 PM on July 31 [47 favorites]

I mean, the NABJ interview is shockingly bad for Trump. It will play well with his base, I suppose, but YIKES. Rude, evasive, ugly. You have to wonder why he agreed to this.
posted by rikschell at 12:08 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

"VP Kamala Harris was Indian before she 'turned Black,' Trump tells NABJ."
posted by rednikki at 12:08 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

Fox Host Jesse Waters Says Men Who Vote For Women ‘Transition' to Women.

For free? With no hormones or medical gatekeeping or anything? I'm definitely going to bring this up with a couple of friends who usually don't vote, it will save them so much money and heartache~!
posted by Frowner at 12:09 PM on July 31 [87 favorites]

RE Trump’s current interview, it makes me wish that once, just once, an interviewer would say something like:

“Okay, I think it’s important to take a moment to pause, just to note for our viewers that over the past few minutes, Mr. Trump has told several outright lies, absolutely demonstrably proven falsehoods, in a breathtaking Gish Gallop of mendacity. We could continue on with this interview, but at this point, it would be a disservice to the Truth and to our Democracy to continue platforming this shameless, toxic bullshit peddler. Our viewers would be far better off spending the next 20 minutes petting their cats, playing with their dogs, giving their loved ones a hug, and then making sure their voting registration is up to date.”

Of course, saying something like that would be “bad journalism”, but it sure would be good civic-mindedness.
posted by darkstar at 12:10 PM on July 31 [33 favorites]

One of the hosts is a FOX news anchor and it’s steal going badly. I think this was intended to be a softball event.
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

steal going badly.

joker-voice: 'poor choice of words'
posted by lalochezia at 12:14 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]

I had high hopes for the interview when Rachel Scott asked the first question AND KEPT ASKING IT even though Trump had started on his usual gish gallop nonsense. He really looked like he was about to storm off the stage and melt into pile of putrid goo, but then the next question came from the Fox News representative (whom Trump immediately flattered) and the whole tone of the interview suddenly changed and it seemed like he was given more of a leash. There were still some good questions being asked, but Trump really draws confidence from his own ability to spew bullshit and as long as he was allowed to continue on with minimal interruption, he was much more relaxed and in his element: he had his platform.

But that first question.....wow. That was great stuff and it really felt good to see him squirm. Every journalist should take every opportunity to push his buttons the same way Scott did.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:14 PM on July 31 [15 favorites]

bah gawd i can see her team now taking notes, chuckling to themselves and shaking their heads saying "keep 'em coming"

forget popcorn; these next 90 days are gonna be full on pull up a chair with a pitcher of margaritas and a bowl of mozzarella sticks
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:16 PM on July 31 [14 favorites]

Real disappointed in the Washington Post liveblog here; it restates Trump's comment as "I didn't know she was Black." It omits “until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black," which is the IMPORTANT part of what he said.

Mainstream media has enabled TFG for too many years. It is enraging.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:17 PM on July 31 [24 favorites]

I am a Minnesotan who is concerned about losing Walz. I am all for Flanagan. My concern is exactly what I was worried about with Harris: can she pull the same numbers as the guy she is replacing? I am so, so glad to have been wrong about Harris and I am ready to be even more wrong about Flanagan.
posted by soelo at 12:17 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]

Real disappointed in the Washington Post liveblog here; it restates Trump's comment as "I didn't know she was Black." It omits “until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black," which is the IMPORTANT part of what he said.

Yeah, though it's really just a paraphrase of his comments in order to introduce comments from the White House.

“Wow,” White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre says, when read the statement Donald Trump made at an appearance at the National Association of Black Journalists convention in Chicago where he said of Harris: “I didn’t know she was Black.”

“What you just read out to me is repulsive. It’s insulting. No one has any right to tell some who they are, how they identify.”

There were audible gasps in the room as NBC News’ Peter Alexander read the comments out loud.

"She is vice president of the United States. We have to put some respect on her name. Period,” Jean-Pierre continued.
It is incredible to me that a Birdman meme has crossed over into common parlance to the point that the White House Press Secretary says it straight, not referring to the meme at all.
posted by kensington314 at 12:19 PM on July 31 [13 favorites]

I'm willing to bet Walz could have a future in the Harris Administration as Sec of Education - so I'd get to know Peggy Flanagan a bit better asap.
posted by djseafood at 12:20 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

I actively avoid reading about the things Trump says so the immediate and total derail is pretty disappointing. I wish the post was properly labeled and/or that there was a separate thread for the live blogging about Trump to take place.

I appreciate your disappointment; I'm sick to death of the guy too. But it feels hard to draw a line separating the two now. They are in a race against one another. Half of "Harris said" will always be in context of "Trump said" from here on out. Seems like the NABJ conference could become Harris campaign fodder for a period, so I'm kinda glad it ended up here as it was going on.
posted by kensington314 at 12:24 PM on July 31 [22 favorites]

This is what I see at the top of the Post's liveblog:

Former president Donald Trump said Wednesday that he had been aware of Vice President Harris’s Indian heritage but didn’t know she was Black “until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black.” “And now she wants to be known as Black,” Trump added, questioning Harris’s identity during a very combative question-and-answer session at the National Association of Black Journalists convention in Chicago. Harris was part of a historically Black sorority and has embraced her Black identity in many ways.
posted by amarynth at 12:24 PM on July 31 [13 favorites]

I'm willing to bet Walz could have a future in the Harris Administration as Sec of Education

I actually think I'd rather he be the Veep. Ain't up to me, but hey.

There are now some articles whispering about a sex scandal in Shapiro's past...so maybe? Especially noteable that this article is from the Philadelphia Enquirer, and some pundits are predicting that Shapiro is being considered to win over the Pennsylvania vote. If the local newspaper is reporting on a local scandal, I'm wondering how that affects the calculus there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:28 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

One clip I would expect from this event that we will see in future advertising is when ABC's Rachel Scott asked, “My question is on those rioters who assaulted officers. Would you pardon those people?” And Trump replied without hesitation, “Oh absolutely, I would.”

Trump questions Harris' Black identity in combative interview (NYT)
posted by box at 12:29 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]

Any chance of moving all the Trump at NABJ event to thread with that subject?
posted by Glinn at 12:29 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]

The sexual harassment scandal has seen a lot of reporting since Kamala stepped up, and I had hoped it would be enough to end his consideration. Unfortunately it kinda feels like Shapiro's one degree of separation combined with "we're literally running against a rapist" means that it wasn't disqualifying.
posted by kensington314 at 12:30 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

I wrote in the last thread that the goal of this VP pick is to keep the VERY FRAUGHT levels of momentum, enthusiasm and party unity continuing onward for the next three months, and find a way to piss the least number of people off.

Everyone, including the campaign, knows at this point that Shapiro is the one single decision that would risk this the most. If they end up choosing to do this anyway, it can only be interpreted as a deliberate calculation to increase their chances in PA, even if means burning off some voters and enthusiasm that they think ultimately doesn't matter.

Progressives will hear that message loud and clear - I can't predict how anyone is going to vote, and I certainly can't predict how people are going to act once school is back in session and campus protests have ramped up again. But I feel confident in saying that many people absolutely won't commit to volunteering for or even playing cheerleader for a campaign with a guy like Shapiro on the ticket.
posted by windbox at 12:30 PM on July 31 [15 favorites]

More encouraging polling trends from Civiqs.

National poll of registered voters: Harris 49% vs Trump 45%.

This is hitting the 4-5% national margin Harris needs to overcome the Electoral College, and supports the other polling showing Harris is pulling even with Trump in some battleground states.

For comparison: in June, Biden and Trump were tied at 45% in this poll.
posted by darkstar at 12:31 PM on July 31 [21 favorites]

"VP Kamala Harris was Indian before she 'turned Black,' Trump tells NABJ."

Rachel Scott: Do you believe that Vice President Kamala Harris is only on the ticket because she is a Black woman?

Trump: Now it is a little bit different. I have known her a long time, indirectly, not directly very much, and she was always of Indian heritage. I did not know she was Black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black, and now she wants to be known as Black. Is she Indian or is she Black?

She has always identified as Black. She went to a Black college.

She obviously does not. She was Indian all the way, and all of a sudden, she made a turn and became a Black person.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:36 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

"A lot of the reporters in this room are Black." At the National Association of Black Journalists.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:37 PM on July 31 [18 favorites]

There's also a new Bloomberg poll of Michigan: Harris 53 / Trump 42.
posted by Jeanne at 12:37 PM on July 31 [20 favorites]

But it feels hard to draw a line separating the two now. They are in a race against one another.

Yes I am aware of the election. I think there's a difference between Trump being mentioned in the context of Harris, and nearly all of the comments in a post live blogging what he's saying. There's not even a Trump tag. I'll just stop reading, but wanted to note that there's a discrepancy between how the post was presented and what the comments quickly became.
posted by rustybullrake at 12:37 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

If Kamala Harris's campaign can sustain the momentum she currently has until November, the 2024 election is going to be an historic disaster and an epic humiliation for Trump and the Republicans. And I am living for it.
posted by orange swan at 12:38 PM on July 31 [25 favorites]

You have to wonder why he agreed to this.

I'll take this one.

He is stupid as fuck.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:39 PM on July 31 [62 favorites]

Any chance of moving all the Trump at NABJ event to thread with that subject?

Moving the existing comments here, probably not.

But, in the interest of folks who don't want to hear about everything Trump says, and/or who don't want to see everything politics-adjacent turn into all the same old arguments, here's a post about it.
posted by box at 12:40 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

If Kamala Harris's campaign can sustain the momentum she currently has until November, the 2024 election is going to be an historic disaster and an epic humiliation for Trump and the Republicans. And I am living for it.

Inshallah.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:40 PM on July 31 [23 favorites]

"I’m stunned at how horrible this is," says Karen Attiah, who quit as co-chair of the NABJ convention after it was announced Trump would speak to the group.

I'm aware that prior to this event folks from the NABJ were upset that he was getting a platform there. In retrospect, though, I think that treating him exactly like any other Presidential candidate and let him get up on the stage and ask him serious questions like you would any other candidate is a pro strategy. People have always complained that the press is soft on him, and this interview shows very starkly how poorly he reacts when pushed just a tiny bit out of his comfort zone.

We should have more of this. Take him seriously, let him demonstrate how deeply unserious he is, and then call him out on it. I have to hope in the wake of this other journalists see opportunities to press him and get "Trump's most unhinged interview yet" or some such thing.

Not to mention that this event has just provided the Harris campaign with plenty of ad copy, as well as tons of "look at this train wreck" social media fodder. If we're leaning into "look how weird this guy is" you could not have asked for a better example, honestly.
posted by anastasiav at 12:43 PM on July 31 [33 favorites]

Another really good interview with Walz, by Jen Psaki, including some of his background. (12 minute YT video)
posted by darkstar at 12:43 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]

In non-Trump news, "A group of more than 100 Silicon Valley investors, including Mark Cuban, the TV host and NBA owner, and Reed Hastings, a co-founder of LinkedIn, launched a website in support of Kamala Harris." From The Guardian. So they are on board, Kamala Harris. Please skip Shapiro as the VP!
posted by Bella Donna at 12:45 PM on July 31 [21 favorites]

Yeah they better build the Walz
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:45 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

I'm sure that the 0.00000001% of Trump's brain he ever even registered Kamala Harris in when he was first made aware of her just slotted her into one of his racist categories that happened to be "Indian" because of her first name, and at some point his racist radar blipped "she's black now", and because people don't exist as real people with real lives outside of his own thoughts in his broken narcissist brain he interpreted that as a sudden change. Like he's got no object permanence for anything except hate.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:46 PM on July 31 [26 favorites]

We should have more of this. Take him seriously, let him demonstrate how deeply unserious he is, and then call him out on it. I have to hope in the wake of this other journalists see opportunities to press him and get "Trump's most unhinged interview yet" or some such thing.

Yeah I think a 2024 approach of "do journalism" would be far preferable to the 2016 approach of "turn on the clicks calculator."

Anyway I'm sure some number of Harris PACs have already made a bunch of microtargeted ads out of this that most of us will never see.
posted by kensington314 at 12:47 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

I think he thought Black people don't vet their own and would believe it if he said some bullshit about her only honoring her Indian side. He didn't know Black folks already looked into not just her official statements but her college, her sorority, her record collection...
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:48 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

*****TRUMP AT NABJ EVENT THREAD***** Thanks, box!
posted by Glinn at 12:49 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]

Maya Rudolph Returning to SNL
posted by anastasiav at 12:49 PM on July 31 [18 favorites]

One comment deleted. Refrain from making light jokes in a serious discussion, particularly suicide jokes.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:52 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

If you watch the clip of the Trump interview linked above, Rachel Scott starts by saying: "We so appreciate your giving us an hour of your time."

36 minutes later, she says, as someone tries to ask a question about Project 2025, "I think we have to leave it there -- by the Trump team -- so that is the last word." Even Trump seems surprised.

Apparently, his team pulled him out early, so someone was awake!
posted by The Bellman at 12:55 PM on July 31 [13 favorites]

Maya Rudolph Returning to SNL

Requesting permission to SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:55 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]

But I feel confident in saying that many people absolutely won't commit to volunteering for or even playing cheerleader for a campaign with a guy like Shapiro on the ticket.

I am one of those people, yeah.

Meanwhile I'll knock the hell out of some doors for a ticket with Walz or Beshear.
posted by Gadarene at 12:57 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

It is incredible to me that a Birdman meme has crossed over into common parlance to the point that the White House Press Secretary says it straight

Just for the record, a lot of stuff that appears in hip hop is already in the community. So when it appears in music, it's often well known to black folk and it's a reference rather than an invention.
posted by cashman at 12:58 PM on July 31 [17 favorites]

A group of more than 100 Silicon Valley investors

I guess there’s a few of them that aren’t hard right weirdos. That said hard not to suspect them of being willing to do a heel turn the moment they don’t get concessions for Bitcoin or the return of ZIRP or whatever.
posted by Artw at 12:58 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]

I hope the SNL writers come up with some better scripts for Rudolph's Harris this time. Previously her portrayal of Harris has mostly consisted of her drinking and laughing. I mean, you have a perfect alumnus to play Harris, and that's the material you give her?
posted by orange swan at 12:58 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]

I guess there’s a few of them that aren’t hard right weirdos.

They're just center-right weirdos who want Lina Khan out, but they're OUR center-right weirdos who want Lina Khan out.
posted by kensington314 at 1:00 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

I posted this in the Trump thread but it's even better for the Kamala thread: 'Weird' Trump hates being laughed at. So Harris is laughing
posted by chavenet at 1:00 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

Previously [Maya Rudolph's} portrayal of Harris has mostly consisted of her drinking and laughing. I mean, you have a perfect alumnus to play Harris, and that's the material you give her?

Well, she has been laughing all the way to the polls thus far, and even Trump is commenting on it....(he's trying to turn it into a pejorative, but from what I've seen people aren't buying it).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:03 PM on July 31

SNL loves to shit on women, traditionally, so I wouldn't get too excited about their portrayal of Harris.

The real deal is good enough to watch!
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:04 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

This Bulworth sequel playing out right now is really something.
posted by azpenguin at 1:04 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]

The thing is, I don't think he would stand up for universal free school lunches and trans rights if he didn't actually believe in those things - many, many Democrats waffle on those.

Yeah, he has been a much better governor than I expected. Beyond anything else, Walz is willing to govern aggressively, just using his position to get shit done as much as possible. I also think he is better at intraparty disagreement than a lot of politicians. To continue the comparison to Jacob Frey, when Walz does something against the preference of his colleagues to his left, he acts like it's a legitimate disagreement but ultimately he's the guy in the Gov's office. When Frey disagrees, he takes more of the tone I think a lot of national Dems take, as though his critics to the left are a combination of naive, whiny and unrealistic.

I get the impression that Walz has learned some of his progressive values from his kids or younger generations in general, but I don't know if I just made that up or it's based on stuff he has said previously.
posted by Emmy Rae at 1:07 PM on July 31 [15 favorites]

I never expected Biden dropping out to go this well! I was dreading everything he did in public whereas I am always looking forward to hearing what Kamala Harris does next in this campaign. Hopefully that feeling continues for the next 4+ years.
posted by Emmy Rae at 1:10 PM on July 31 [17 favorites]

Maya Rudolph Returning to SNL

I hope she got an 8 year contract.
posted by jedicus at 1:10 PM on July 31 [23 favorites]

The "weird" thing does seem to be working. It's basically the Bush-era Daily Show approach—show a clip of a Republican saying something nonsensical, then Jon Stewart with a "wtf" facial expression—adopted by the party itself, the way the Republicans have for decades now adopted the rhetorical style of right wing media.

Biden's approach seemed to be bringing seriousness back to presidential politics, but humor seems like a better tool for the job in 2024. Even particular policies aside, Walz feels like a better match for this approach! Shapiro comes off as a smarmy "adult in the room" Democrat, in the style of Hillary Clinton and James Carville.
posted by smelendez at 1:10 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]

SNL loves to shit on women, traditionally, so I wouldn't get too excited about their portrayal of Harris.

Counterpoint: I'm excited.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:13 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Yeah setting aside my ideological objections to Shapiro he just seems to be doing a bad Obama impression. There was a lot to like about the Obama presidency, a lot to dislike about the Obama presidency as well. But is any swing voter out there in 2024 saying, "God I wish they would just pick a second-rate Obama impersonator with a center-right agenda?"
posted by kensington314 at 1:14 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]

Biden to open first night of the DNC.

[Bill] Clinton and former President Barack Obama are tentatively expected to deliver remarks Tuesday, people familiar with the planning said, though schedules are still in flux. High-profile speaking roles for past presidents are customary for them to continue championing the causes of the party. The possibility of speaking roles for former first lady Michelle Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is also under discussion. And Doug Emhoff, the second gentleman, will have a marquee spot, delivering a historic address of his own.
posted by anastasiav at 1:17 PM on July 31 [12 favorites]

SNL loves to shit on women, traditionally

At one time maybe. Then it got Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, and Maya Rudolph in the writers' room, followed later by Kristen Wiig, Leslie Jones, Kate McKinnon, and Aidy Bryant. Fey, Poehler and Rudolph made it pretty clear that they weren't gonna take any shit from anyone - there's a famous story about Poehler getting off some particularly crude jokes in the writers' room and Jimmy Fallon tutted that he thought it was getting a little offensive, and Poehler clapped back saying "I don't fucking care".

I am also looking forward to watching the genuine article, but this could be good.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:23 PM on July 31 [14 favorites]

Axios: Wall Street thinks Kamala Harris picking governor for VP

The Harris campaign is pressing Wall Street donors to cut their checks as soon as possible, citing a financial rule that bars contributions to tickets featuring a sitting governor, according to people familiar with the matter.

Why it matters: The urgency of the requests has led some donors to conclude that Harris plans to pick a governor — and not a senator, like Mark Kelly of Arizona — to be her running mate.

If the campaign signals are being correctly interpreted, that would narrow the veepstakes down to Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear, Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, and Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz.

Seems everything is lining up for it to be Shapiro. People will understandably be upset. Hopefully at the end of the day it'll result in not losing what we have left of this democracy that Vice President Harris chose the Governor of Pennsylvania rather than the Governor of Kentucky or the Governor of Minnesota. I got issues with the guy for sure, but if it's Shapiro it's still time to save the country. From the previous comments I've read, people have issues with any of these options, from Walz to Beshear to Buttigieg. For everyone who will enjoy one pick, a bunch of other people will hate that pick.
posted by cashman at 1:23 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

L'esprit d'escalier about Rudolph on SNL -

Consider how it would look to have Harris prove she's got enough self-confidence to laugh at herself sometimes, something which Trump looks completely incapable of doing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:24 PM on July 31

. From the previous comments I've read, people have issues with any of these options, from Walz to Beshear to Buttigieg. For everyone who will enjoy one pick, a bunch of other people will hate that pick.

Genuinely curious what you would say it is that some people would hate about Walz or Beshear.
posted by Gadarene at 1:26 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

Hopefully at the end of the day it'll result in not losing what we have left of this democracy that Vice President Harris chose the Governor of Pennsylvania rather than the Governor of Kentucky or the Governor of Minnesota. I got issues with the guy for sure, but if it's Shapiro it's still time to save the country.[...] For everyone who will enjoy one pick, a bunch of other people will hate that pick.

I think it's a reach to think that a surge this huge would be completely wiped out by a VP pick. Shapiro wouldn't be smart, I agree - there would be some serious losses in the polls, but it would likely not be the democracy-ending fumble you're claiming here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:29 PM on July 31

I genuinely think Beshear could use some public speaking training to not say um so much. That's what I got.
posted by droomoord at 1:30 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

I think it's a reach to think that a surge this huge would be completely wiped out by a VP pick.

True to form, we are probably beanplating something that won't matter to the average voter.
posted by kensington314 at 1:33 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

The wisdom is that VP picks are about avoiding downsides. Shapiro might help in PA, but he's gonna go over like a lead balloon in Michigan and piss off the NEA everywhere.
posted by Ferreous at 1:33 PM on July 31 [12 favorites]

This Venn diagram has been all around the internet, but it can't find its baby.
posted by box at 1:34 PM on July 31 [13 favorites]

I think there are people on here are so used to inside-baseball politics that they can't imagine people not being familiar with all the governors, and that picking a "bad" one would of course signal that it's all over, resume circular firing squad. When in reality it would barely make a blip. The average voter just doesn't care about the average VP pick. If Shapiro isn't out fucking couches, it's a nothingburger to 99.5% of the population.
posted by rikschell at 1:35 PM on July 31 [23 favorites]

Reminder that due to the garbage that is the electoral college that .5% in swing states really fucking matters.
posted by Ferreous at 1:36 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

Until some post-convention earthquake shows GA and NC emerging as major pathways and NV back in the mix (all fingers crossed), it seems like this whole race is just about PA.

I'm curious if anyone here has any online sources they read regularly that would give some perspective on the turnout and swing vote dynamics in Pennsylvania. (Happy to just subscribe to a PA newspaper if there's a specific one people recommend.) I feel really uneducated on what is basically the major dynamic in this race for the time being.
posted by kensington314 at 1:36 PM on July 31

If Shapiro isn't out fucking couches, it's a nothingburger to 99.5% of the population.

Yeah, but if he has a sex scandal looming (like some folks have mentioned), it seems he'd be a liability even to the "ordinary" voters.
posted by grubi at 1:36 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

the box Venn diagram has it right from my extremely biased opinion, but this is the party that chose Tim Kaine . . . and a candidate whose campaigning instincts have never been top-notch.
posted by kensington314 at 1:38 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]

Reminder that due to the garbage that is the electoral college that .5% in swing states really fucking matters.

That's true, but I'm kind of banking that the people whose entire jobs are to get the candidate elected are EVEN MORE SAVVY about that than the cockroaches on a 25-year-old message board, lol
posted by rikschell at 1:42 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

cockroaches?
posted by mazola at 1:44 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

Shapiro does give a risky opening to dampen enthusiasm for very online portions of the base that may be likely to volunteer if enthused, even if the majority of voters wouldn't register an issue. That does blunt potential gains because volunteers can be vote multipliers.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:44 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

cockroaches?

cockroaches
posted by kensington314 at 1:45 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

(Thanks, Matt)
posted by rikschell at 1:46 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

cockroaches?

Because we're still here. Goes back to the MeFi birthday celebration thread.

on edit: Argh, beat to it.
posted by grubi at 1:46 PM on July 31

It's true they picked Tim Kaine and that was not great, but we don't actually know yet who will be picked.
posted by Glinn at 1:46 PM on July 31

maybe they'll just pick tim kaine again
posted by kensington314 at 1:48 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

nb: cockroach, though not intended as such here, has been used historically as an antisemitic slur.
posted by stet at 1:48 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, and Maya Rudolph in the writers' room, followed later by Kristen Wiig, Leslie Jones, Kate McKinnon, and Aidy Bryant. Fey, Poehler and Rudolph

The jokes during all of these women's reign still often shit on women, or made women the butt of the joke. Enjoy, but I will always steer clear. Sorry to continue a derail just wanted to be clear I think it's an SNL institution problem, and not great comedians who are the problem.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:48 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]

It has been said that Pennsylvania is Pittsburgh on one side and Philadelphia on the other with Alabama in between. And while the 2020 county by county map shows that's not actually true, it's closer than it might be.

The question for Harris is not turning Turmpers, but getting her voters out.

If the calculus says it's 100% about Pennsylvania I can see her leaning towards Klan dude even if it might dampen enthusiasm among some of her voters.

And with 100 days before the election there's probably time for Shapiro, the Klan Kaller, to moderate himself somewhat. Or possibly not depending on how much they care about enthusiasm among people who don't think it's a good idea to kiss billionaire ass, maliciously lie about college kids, and try to destroy public education.
posted by sotonohito at 1:49 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]

Are the very online people the ones who are likely to volunteer, though? Most volunteers I see are, like, sixty-year-old women who are active in their churches and have more time now that their kids have graduated and they don't need to do stuff with the PTA.

At any rate, I really hope it's not Shapiro, but I'm not going to get pissed off about it until the announcement is made. Anticipatory outrage seems about as useful as anticipatory panic, which is to say not useful at all.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:49 PM on July 31 [13 favorites]

Genuinely curious what you would say it is that some people would hate about Walz or Beshear.

I've said it before in these threads but... I am worried that the ample footage of fires and looting in Minneapolis following the George Floyd protests, while Walz was governor, is going to play right into GOP narratives. "This is what Walz and Harris want for your city."

I personally think Walz is great. I also don't blame him and I don't blame protestors for the fires and looting (which mostly affected black neighborhoods, leaving people in those neighborhoods unable to go to work or shop for groceries for weeks. The fires and the looting were bad, and not what the actual protestors wanted).

...I think opportunists just took advantage of the fact that the police were refusing to arrest anyone at that time. It was basically a police work stoppage as a counter protest. For that reason I am also okay with the fact that Walz called in the National Guard to do the police's job for them. I think he handled things well. But there will be plenty of people on the right who criticize him for not doing more, and plenty and there are and were people on the left who criticize him for doing what he did.

But anyway I think that footage could really hurt the campaign.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:50 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

I offer the meme in this tumblr post to everyone for their texting/social media/group chat needs (linking to my own reblog since I think that should be visible to people without at tumblr account). Tumblr user nickandros is right! "genuinely best thing to come out of american politics in a while is this whole earnestly calling republicans "weird". never underestimate the power of cringe to turn the tide of a political campaign." And both the best and most hilarious possible response to unending stream of bugfuck weirdo nonsense the Republicans spout is "Goddamn, you see that shit? That was fucking crazy. anyway, I'm Kamala Harris."
posted by yasaman at 1:55 PM on July 31 [13 favorites]

I am hopeful that “weird” is our century’s "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
posted by migurski at 1:57 PM on July 31 [22 favorites]

I hope they combine the "weird" thing with the tidbit people noticed in relation to the GOP's attempts to make Harris' laughter into something negative, that Trump rarely if ever laughs in public. If it catches on that people are calling him weird for never laughing, can you imagine the embarrassing psychotic attempts at forced laughter he'd try when it got under his skin? Just pure weird alienating cringe.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:59 PM on July 31 [18 favorites]

The fires and the looting were bad, I think that footage could really hurt the campaign.
Agreed!
But counter with the Trump footage in DC tear gassing + upside down bible hiding in the basement.
posted by djseafood at 2:14 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

The average voter just doesn't care about the average VP pick.

The average voter in Michigan will if it's Shapiro.
posted by tofu_crouton at 2:22 PM on July 31 [14 favorites]

...I think opportunists just took advantage of the fact that the police were refusing to arrest anyone at that time.

Remember this guy? Turned out to be a Nazi, crazy times.

IIRC it was Nazis that burned down the police station as well.

I don’t know if we are ready to unpack the antifa panic and how much of it was just police riots and Nazis but some honest reporting on that could be very interesting.
posted by Artw at 2:24 PM on July 31 [33 favorites]

The average voter in Michigan will if it's Shapiro.

Who do you think the average voter in Michigan is?
posted by Justinian at 2:34 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

Who do you think the average voter in Michigan is?

Odds are he's wearing a black hoodie (/S)
posted by djseafood at 2:37 PM on July 31

"average Michigan voter votes for 1 vice-president a year" factoid actualy just statistical error. average Michigan voter votes 0 times a year. Michigans Georg, who lives in lake & votes over 10,000 each day, is an outlier adn [sic] should not have been counted
posted by Jarcat at 2:40 PM on July 31 [18 favorites]

Ernest Owens: "I'm hearing from Philly Democratic Party members at their weekly luncheon today that Josh Shapiro is going to be Kamala Harris's VP pick and that local unions pulled for him. Apparently, her campaign is trying to get Wall Street to pour more money before announcing him."
posted by cashman at 2:49 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

So exhausted with the notion that online progressive concerns regarding big campaign decisions like selecting Shapiro for VP are overblown because nothing particularly matters, especially in light of the huge groundswell of support for Harris, and the overnight re-energizing of the Democratic Party, following weeks of being told (often by the same people now in favor of Shapiro) that that could only have negative consequences.

We were right about that and it is maybe, possibly, barely possible that we're right about Shapiro also. Maybe?

It definitely wasn't just progressives who were agitating for Biden to drop out though? Like, some of the people you are arguing against here were also right about that. It wouldn't have even happened if only one wing of the party was pushing for it, same for Harris' groundswell of support.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:59 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

"I'm hearing from Philly Democratic Party members at their weekly luncheon today that Josh Shapiro is going to be Kamala Harris's VP pick and that local unions pulled for him.

Would the campaign make the Philly Democratic Party people privy to the VP pick? "Whoops! Kamala let it slip to a couple ex-legislators that the pick just happens to be their guy!"

I mean, I don't doubt it could be Shapiro since we're not allowed to have nice things, but "the local Dem chair let it slip" just doesn't feel very real to me.
posted by kensington314 at 3:05 PM on July 31 [15 favorites]

The average voter just doesn't care about the average VP pick

So TFG was right about something today at NABJ? Ew. (Also, I'm for Kelly, so take my opinion with salt)
posted by Snowishberlin at 3:08 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

That could make for an interesting compare-and-contrast tomorrow morning.

Already the Harris campaign has released 7 video clips from the NABJ. The Trump campaign, zero.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:09 PM on July 31 [17 favorites]

It definitely wasn't just progressives who were agitating for Biden to drop out though? Like, some of the people you are arguing against here were also right about that.

Progressives were complaining about Biden for a long time pre-horrible debate. Got yelled at a lot for saying things like “he should actually go on the attack” and other clearly invalid stuff like “he’s too keen on genocide”.

Then he fucked up the debate and finished the media couldn’t drop him quick enough and progressives were probably the most skeptical about how that would work out.

Then we lucked out and had a relatively smooth transition and I think we’re mostly happy about that? Though definitely waiting for the other shoe to drop on things like I/P.

Shapiro is shoe shaped.
posted by Artw at 3:11 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]

Already the Harris campaign has released 7 video clips from the NABJ. The Trump campaign, zero.

He should release some!!!
posted by kensington314 at 3:11 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

The thing about the Shapiro option is I was just really hoping the Democrats were past the Obama era preference toward privatizing public schools. Was hoping Arne Duncan's ghost had left the White House. And Kamala's wooing of the teachers unions last week seemed to kind of imply so. Obviously the VP isn't the Prez, but the pick would seem symbolic of what the party is trying to communicate, especially since a ticket with two youngish people tends to really present a strong sense of "this is who we are for the foreseeable future." Kinda like Clinton/Gore.
posted by kensington314 at 3:16 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

Donald Trump falsely suggests Kamala Harris misled voters about her race (AP)

White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre was asked during her briefing with reporters on Wednesday about Trump’s remarks and responded with disbelief, initially murmuring, “Wow.”

posted by box at 3:21 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

Andy Beshear and Tim Walz seem like the best options at this point.

Shapiro, for all his upside, would hurt the momentum a bit. Picking a candidate for electoral math maybe standard operating procedure, but if we've learned anything thing the last 8 years, vibes matter.

Picking Shapiro gives deflating Tim Kaine vibes.
posted by ishmael at 3:24 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

I simply don't see how you have several candidates who are anodyne and then one that's a new bees nest and the best option is hugging the bees nest
posted by Ferreous at 3:28 PM on July 31 [13 favorites]

The average voter in Michigan will if it's Shapiro.

Saw a poll where Harris was now 11 points ahead in Michigan. Why squander that?
posted by ishmael at 3:29 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]

Because the mega-donors love the bees nest
posted by kensington314 at 3:29 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

Can someone please summarize the issues with Shapiro for people who aren’t from PA? I am deep into following national politics but he’s not someone I knew anything about till like a week ago. From his Wikipedia page, his Gaza stance is problematic but that’s about all I see. Is he terrible or is this far-left hyperbole? Why would voters in other swing states know anything about him?

I like Walz as an option but curious.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:31 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

Read the room, megadonors. Sheesh
posted by ishmael at 3:32 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Obviously the VP isn't the Prez, but the pick would seem symbolic of what the party is trying to communicate

This is a good way to put it. Look, I do a lot of whining about the potential Shapiro pick, but I still don't think it necessarily cements a loss or anything. That said, when Biden dropped out and Harris came off the bench it created this huge groundswell of excitement that I really think was bolstered by a feeling of the Democrats actually acting like a fucking opposition party for once. People wanted something to happen, and they felt like democrats actually came through and made it happen! They are finally drawing stark contrasts with their opposition, and people love to see it!

It's like watching a local loser sports team finally get their shit together. Why risk squandering any of the energy and the fandom? It communicates to a lot of voters, "eh, we've done enough though. Back to business as usual...you know, the shit that many of you hate." Seems like a stupid thing to do especially when "democracy is on the line".
posted by windbox at 3:33 PM on July 31 [11 favorites]

Can someone please summarize the issues with Shapiro for people who aren’t from PA?

Gaza stance is a pretty big one, but he's also a big school voucher guy, and personality-wise he comes off a bit dickish.
posted by ishmael at 3:34 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

Picking Shapiro gives deflating Tim Kaine vibes.

We need to do better than literal potato Time Kaine.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:34 PM on July 31

His Gaza stance being problematic means Harris taking the anvil from around Biden’s neck and donning it herself.

Other than that… he’s a schoools choice guy? That alone suggests bad things.
posted by Artw at 3:39 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

Shapiro
supports public school privatization schemes like vouchers and charter schools
is terrible on Palestine
is terrible on the rights of students to protest a genocide in Gaza (they are equivalent to the KKK, to him) and seems to have revised the state's employee code of conduct to be able to fire pro-ceasefire protesters
has a sexual harassment cover up in his past

I'm sure there's much more, he's just a typical scum-sucking corporate Dem type
posted by kensington314 at 3:40 PM on July 31 [23 favorites]

Saying his stance on Palestine is problematic undersells it. He compared student protestors to the klan.

He's a school choice voucher booster which pisses off the NEA and unions.

He potentially has a looming sexual harassment coverup scandal.

Lots of downsides!
posted by Ferreous at 3:42 PM on July 31 [24 favorites]

Can someone please summarize the issues with Shapiro for people who aren’t from PA?

Strongly disliked by teacher's unions for his pro-vouchers stance, loves the idea of big corporate tax cuts, likens students protesting genocide to the KKK, is fairly pro-genocide himself, has expressed extreme views on West Bank settlements, has minimal actual governing experience, very anti-BDS, allegations that he looked the other way on sexual harassment, comes off as a giant dick with a second-rate Obama impression.

He is not in any way someone who would be on the radar for VP if Elizabeth Warren were the nominee, and that sums it up for me.

But, as kensington says, the megadonors love him -- maybe because of that whole corporate tax cuts thing. Give me a candidate who would rather use taxes to, say, give kids free school lunches any day.
posted by Gadarene at 3:44 PM on July 31 [36 favorites]

I genuinely think Beshear could use some public speaking training to not say um so much. That's what I got.

Well he's not only young and still learning, but even though he's riding a minor family legacy in the Commonwealth, under the hood I think there are still many days when he wakes still utterly baffled that he's been elected twice in MAGA era blood-Red Kentucky. And he is definitely not alone.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 3:45 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

The smarty pants poli-sci types seem to think that evidence does not support the idea that the VP pick necessarily helps win their own state. I'm sure the Harris campaign knows this, and so picking Shapiro would also just signal that she likes what he's about. And that would be dampening to my enthusiasm personally, though they don't need my vote. I just think it's the wrong direction for the party and the country.
posted by kensington314 at 3:51 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

I love what I know of Walz. What are his downsides aside from the George Floyd situation? I saw someone say he handled Covid poorly and say he had other negatives as well.
posted by cashman at 3:52 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Also bringing into this thread this info about Shapiro (who I personally don't want).

"In private polling we've done, Shapiro also takes the *highest* percentage of Trump voters out of any of the Midwestern governors (Evers/Whitmer/Shapiro), and his approval there is jaw-droppingly high.

Lot of reasons to be wary of a Shapiro pick, but the logic is self-evident."

Which is in response to a previous tweet:

"Not totally sure I agree with this. Shapiro won two races for AG in 2016 and 2020 where he outran the top of the ticket pretty significantly both times. His current approval rating (independent of Mastriano) is incredibly high"

(The tweet that one was in response to has been deleted, but was apparently questioning the possible Shapiro pick)
posted by cashman at 3:57 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

I wonder what explains Shapiro's regional popularity in the midwest? My suspicion is maybe what they know about him is that he got the I-95 back open in two weeks after the bridge collapse. And this is also something that Democratic Party types loved. Rolled up his sleeves, cut the red tape, got something done.
posted by kensington314 at 4:00 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

Nothing about the last two weeks suggests the Harris team is incompetent which means they had some of the best polling people in the world looking at exactly the question of who amongst the potential VP picks helps the most (if anyone does) in MI/PA/WI, and what if any downsides they bring to the ticket electorally.

If they do end up picking Shapiro or Walz or Kelly it'll be because they've already done the work to try to predict what effect it would have on the voters in those states. They could be surprised but it won't be for lack of thought about it.
posted by Justinian at 4:01 PM on July 31 [22 favorites]

11th dimensional chess idea: the Harris campaign wants the donor class to think it’s Shapiro and get their donations in now before the announcement.

Which then means the announcement doesn’t have to bend to the donor class, so it needn’t actually be Shapiro.

I sorta doubt this and am pretty concerned signs are pointing towards a bad Shapiro-shaped decision here, though.
posted by nat at 4:09 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]

Nothing about the last two weeks suggests the Harris team is incompetent

Last I saw, most of the Harris team was the legacy Biden team, including at the top of the campaign management. Has that changed?
posted by Gadarene at 4:09 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

What would be amazing is if they pick somebody completely different as a head fake. Ideally somebody completely amazing, and not a governor at all, so as to entirely forestall the fundraising issue. Double down on momentum and fundraising.
posted by notoriety public at 4:10 PM on July 31

But if a big problem for your predecessor was getting dubbed genocide joe and losing support from voters you need over his support for israel despite horrific war crime laden assault on gaza, maybe you don't want to bring that over to your clean start campaign.

Oh, I agree that Shapiro would lose Harris the "genocide Joe" voters. My hunch, however, is that Harris has won over more people to offset that.

I don't disagree that Shapiro would suck. I just don't think he would lose Harris the race entirely, though, just make it more difficult. And hell, the way that TFG is going he'll probably shoot himself in the foot AND the ass at least three more times and skew things further.

Definitely something to stay on Harris' case about, though. Although I would prefer Walz, only because I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about him other than that he's a little dull.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:10 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Upon lack of preview:

What would be amazing is if they pick somebody completely different as a head fake.

My recent "wrong answers only" thought would be that AOC would be a cool option, if only to make a whole shit-ton of people's heads just EXPLODE.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:12 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Also not a fan of Shapiro — I much prefer Walz — but if your calculus is based on “absolutely HAVE to lock down Pennsylvania”, then the choice makes sense, at least.
posted by darkstar at 4:12 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

Last I saw, most of the Harris team was the legacy Biden team, including at the top of the campaign management. Has that changed?

I hope at the very least that they have jettisoned the geniuses who thought it was a good idea to not poll swing states for two months in that period spanning the debate, because Jesus.
posted by Gadarene at 4:22 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]

I patiently await the announcement of Vice Presidential Candidate Clooney.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:25 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

Apologize for the xitter link, but this short vid of the crowd at a Harris rally is reminding me of the current momentum we have right now.

As opposed to the the teeny-tiny outdoor gatherings that Trump is garnering.
posted by ishmael at 4:30 PM on July 31 [4 favorites]

late to this but ...

He is stupid as fuck.

I know fuck. This is a damned insult to fuck
posted by philip-random at 4:32 PM on July 31 [16 favorites]

this short vid of the crowd at a Harris rally is reminding me of the current momentum we have right now.

When we FIGHT we win.
When we VOTE we win.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:33 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

Meanwhile Josh Shapiro, who has been a governor for a year and a half, has reiterated his aggressive support for cutting corporate taxes.

This dude is so not right for the moment and I dearly hope the Harris campaign can see that.

That's just the kind of Dem you get out of PA.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:37 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

At minimum I would hope they don’t pick someone who is going to turn around and Manchin them, which is a vibe I heavily get from this guy.
posted by Artw at 4:39 PM on July 31 [17 favorites]

You know, I haven't heard any interest in Senator Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY), but I think that would be a hell of a ticket.
posted by mikelieman at 4:43 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

We could continue on with this interview, but at this point...

...we'll just move on to the heckling portion of our evening.

Late, I know, but I had to riff on this.
posted by VTX at 5:17 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

And Doug Emhoff, the second gentleman, will have a marquee spot, delivering a historic address of his own.

Oh man, whatever else happens, I'm going to watch the hell out of our potential future First Wife Guy's DNC speech.
posted by the primroses were over at 5:54 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

Here is Josh Shapiro's comments about student protests including the reference to the KKK if people are interested in the context.

I find the epithet "Shapiro, the Klan Kaller" above pretty ironic as it implies an association between Shapiro and KKK which does not exist at all, while implying also it is terrible to associate people with the KKK.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:59 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

You support ONE racist organization with a three letter acronym…
posted by Artw at 6:04 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

Looking around for varying opinions on Shapiro. I think folks here have offered the harshest view of him of anywhere I've seen.

NBC News, July 25th: Republicans see Gov. Josh Shapiro as Harris' 'super strong' VP contender.

“I just think Shapiro is super strong,” one ally of former President Donald Trump said. “And Republicans should be concerned about it. If I were her, that would be the pick.”

This person added that Shapiro has avoided blistering attacks from Republican counterparts “because he’s actually pretty moderate,” adding that the governor, an observant Jew, could speak to disaffected voters of faith who years ago voted for Democrats but now feel detached from the party — and might even be a stronger candidate than Harris.

“Shapiro creates a super interesting dynamic,” this person added.

A second Trump ally said that while they did not view Shapiro as a moderate, they saw his “really nonthreatening” persona as having boosted his credibility with independents and Republicans. This person added that Shapiro is “the one that does the most to help her.”

Then later

Shapiro’s bipartisan brand in Pennsylvania dates back years. He ran ahead of Biden and 2016 Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton when he was on the ballot with them and was elected the state's attorney general. In 2022, NBC News exit polls showed he won 16% of Republicans in the governor's race. And a Philadelphia Inquirer/New York Times/Siena College survey from May, which showed his statewide approval rating at 57%, found that 42% of Pennsylvania Republicans approved of his handling of the job.

posted by cashman at 6:34 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

I am a not totally uninformed person and I absolutely could not have named this man as the Governor of Pennsylvania before reading all the comments in Harris threads about how much some people loathe him. And, fair enough, he does not sound like my kind of Democrat, and perhaps he will perform as badly as Vance (of whom I was certainly aware beforehand) once the spotlight is turned on him. But I find the notion that his selection would immediately torpedo the campaign absurd.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:37 PM on July 31 [20 favorites]

..."When Kamala plays this at her next rally".
posted by cashman at 6:37 PM on July 31

Agreed that signs are pointing towards Shapiro, but I’m gonna keep hoping for Walz while there’s still time to hope for it. I think he keeps the groundswell momentum going, where Shapiro dampens it. I think he has the ability to cut through bullshit and explain nuanced policy positions in an engaging way. And if Shapiro has a sexual harassment cover-up scandal coming down the pike, that takes a huge bite out of the Harris Campaign’s “Prosecutor vs. Predator” narrative. I can imagine that whoever the VP pick is, starting your barnstorming tour in Philly makes sense, but that might just be wishful thinking on my part.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:46 PM on July 31 [18 favorites]

Daniel Marco Mulieri

"We did amazing tonight on the inaugural Latino Men For Harris Call! Over 2,000+ Hombres from around the United States! We raised well over $50,000 while on the Call for the Harris Campaign!! We must keep up the momentum from now until Election Day! Si se puede!! 🙌🏼💪🏼✊🏼"

Picture at the link!
posted by cashman at 6:55 PM on July 31 [25 favorites]

At minimum I would hope they don’t pick someone who is going to turn around and Manchin them, which is a vibe I heavily get from this guy.

There is no way for Shapiro, or any other Vice President, to pull a Manchin. They don't get a vote. They don't get any power. (Yes, they do get to break ties in the Senate, but in doing so they follow the President's direction, not their own.)

You don't like Shapiro? The best way to get him out of the way is to make him Vice President. Instead of governing Pennsylvania, he'll be attend state funerals around the world. Sure, that's an exaggeration, but people are really getting themselves bent out of shape over something that will have very little effect on how President Harris governs for the next eight years.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:57 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

My top 3:
Wolz
Kelly
Shapiro, I guess
posted by kirkaracha at 6:57 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

I am less (but still) concerned that Shapiro will tank the candidacy, I'm more concerned about what Shapiro signals about the priorities and goals of a Harris admin.
posted by Ferreous at 6:59 PM on July 31 [23 favorites]

On a different note, anyone here think Kamala Harris would make a great Star Fleet captain? She's got the poise, she's got the posture, she's got the stride. And those jackets. 100% Star Fleet.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:01 PM on July 31 [34 favorites]

You don't like Shapiro? The best way to get him out of the way is to make him Vice President.

I don't like Trump actually, and would very much like his opposition to be able to campaign against him on the strongest footing possible - not with a bunch of gen-Z TikTokers flipping their switch from "lol Coconut Tree!" to "Fuck Zionist CopMalla and Shit-piro #ACAB #NotVotingForGenocide". Pick literally anyone else and they can do a lot in halting this current of discourse among young and/or progressive voters.

PA can keep this ghoul, don't need him polluting the ticket.
posted by windbox at 7:04 PM on July 31 [20 favorites]

¡Sí, se puede!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:07 PM on July 31 [3 favorites]

Looking around for varying opinions on Shapiro. I think folks here have offered the harshest view of him of anywhere I've seen.

Two items in favor of Shapiro despite various misgivings that have been expressed (I know, I know, don’t @ me) are:

1. He has high positives with local unions in PA.

“More than 50 local labor unions, including the American Federation of Teachers and the Pennsylvania State Education Association, signed onto a letter endorsing Shapiro over the weekend.”

2. In a recent head-to-head Fox poll about a week ago, testing various possible Dem candidates against Trump specifically in PA, he was by far the best candidate at +10 over Trump (54-44).

He’s also receiving praise from former PA Governor Ed Rendell (see that first link). So again, if you really, really gotta win PA, then Shapiro’s probably a reasonable choice.
posted by darkstar at 7:10 PM on July 31 [5 favorites]

Kelly.

I'm less thrilled about him since I learned he shilled vitamins for a MLM and tried to have his ex jailed. I can't decide between Walz or his teenage daughter.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:12 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]

I really do find it frustrating that people act like caring about unwavering US support for Israel is some pointless sideshow issue that should never care about. The Dems actively supporting a country that is gunning down children is something that gives people every right to not vote for them.

I get Trump will be worse on the conflict but that gets treated as a Dems not needing to do better. They can do much better and they should if they want to not lose the generations that define Internet culture and discourse.
posted by Ferreous at 7:12 PM on July 31 [27 favorites]

If you gain Pa but lose MI, and lose enough excitement that the sunbelt (AZ, GA, NV) is off the table, that doesn’t work out so well either.
posted by nat at 7:18 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

I am saying this as a staunch Shapiro hater but I think it will be difficult to make a meaningful case against him electorally. I am aware he's popular in PA so it's not like he DOESN'T at least help the ticket there, even if there are no guarantees. No telling of how other swing states will truly respond.

All my electability criticism is on the basis of vibes, and to whatever extent people think sustaining the enthusiasm and momentum of young voters on social media is meaningful. Maybe it's important, maybe it isn't worth shit but the margins in 2016 and 2020 were too damn small to feel good about rocking that boat. People certainly talk about it like it's important!
posted by windbox at 7:26 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

people act like caring about unwavering US support for Israel is some pointless sideshow issue that should never care about.

Is uh...anybody here doing that?

Anyway, I'm going to spend these last couple days before the news hits holding onto the shred of info that said Harris hasn't talked to Shapiro since the day Biden dropped out, and tell myself the rally is gonna be in Philly because they're letting it be known that it's not the 'not going back' theme and instead rolling out the full "FREEDOM" theme as the motto of the campaign with Walz by her side as VP and Thought freestyling a new verse over the Jazzy Jeff (I think) remixed Rocky Theme.

Anybody know when there will be tickets available to attend the rally?
posted by cashman at 7:39 PM on July 31 [12 favorites]

I am less (but still) concerned that Shapiro will tank the candidacy, I'm more concerned about what Shapiro signals about the priorities and goals of a Harris admin.

This is how I feel; I was very upset by Harris's statement about the Netanyahu protests and picking Shapiro feels like leaning into all the things that bothered me about that statement and to my mind would augur poorly for her potential administration.
posted by an octopus IRL at 7:59 PM on July 31 [15 favorites]

Someone here might have enough knowledge of how campaigns work to shed light on this:

I'm trying to understand why the Harris campaign is able to be quick (brat themed twitter page, for example) and aggressive immediately, when the Biden campaign seemed so flat footed and lethargic. Isn't it basically the same people, with the very important exception of the name at the top? It seems like the Harris campaign is way smarter - if the campaign staff know how to move fast on messaging, why weren't they doing that when it was Biden at the top? Or were they, but it wasn't getting cultural engagement because people were so checked out on Biden?
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:14 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

can you imagine the embarrassing psychotic attempts at forced laughter he'd try when it got under his skin? Just pure weird alienating cringe.

It helped sink Ron DeSantis, after all. Who remembers much about that creepy weirdo, who doesn't live in Florida?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:15 PM on July 31 [2 favorites]

Israel’s Reckless Escalations Demand We Honestly Scrutinize Kamala Harris’ Gaza Position (Adam Johnson at The Real News Network)

From what we’ve seen of Harris’ comments on Gaza since Biden withdrew from the race, this appears to also be her position, with modest changes in tone. Harris’ public comments made before and after meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu the day after his July 23 speech before Congress indicate that she has settled on a combination of bleeding-heart empathy-speak and vague appeals to NuCeasefire.

Many have noted a shift in “tone,” but this is true only if one limits the Biden administration to Biden. While it’s true President Biden hasn’t really bothered even acknowledging Palestinians exist, much less are human—and Harris rhetorically doing so is a change—Secretary of State Antony Blinken has trafficked in similar crocodile tears, so it’s not clear what Harris’s use of Empathy-Speak really counts for. If anything, savvy and convincing use of Empathy-Speak while still rubber-stamping shipments of weapons and munitions could be less of a “step in the right direction” and more a harbinger of an increasingly sophisticated bullshitting media apparatus.
…
So, will a meaningful shift in policy come? It’s still possible, and one should not stop pressuring. Indeed, this is the aim of the mass protests planned for the DNC in late August. But one should not let rose-tinted campaigning get in the way of what is actually said and what policies are actually being laid out. In a time of ever-shifting focus, sophisticated social media narratives, and the genuine fear of a second Trump term, it’s easy to simply vibe one’s way into thinking Harris is breaking from Biden on Gaza. But one must stay focused and keep in mind three central questions: (1) Are kids still being bombed? (2) Are US bombs still being shipped? (3) Is the person in question refusing to commit to stopping the shipment of said bombs? If the answer to all three questions is yes, then bleeding-heart box checking and vague appeals to “ceasefire negotiations” don’t matter much at all.

posted by adrienneleigh at 8:19 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]

I'm trying to understand why the Harris campaign is able to be quick (brat themed twitter page, for example) and aggressive immediately, when the Biden campaign seemed so flat footed and lethargic. Isn't it basically the same people, with the very important exception of the name at the top? It seems like the Harris campaign is way smarter - if the campaign staff know how to move fast on messaging, why weren't they doing that when it was Biden at the top?

With the caveat that this is purely a guess -

Presumably the campaign staff still have to have the person at the top sign off on what they do. And so maybe with Biden at the top their hands were a bit tied.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:20 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

I patiently await the announcement of Vice Presidential Candidate Clooney.

We’re debating who should be Robin, and George was already Batman. We’ve moved onto a new Batman. And really, anyone should only care about Batman.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:20 PM on July 31 [1 favorite]

if only it was amal...
posted by kliuless at 8:32 PM on July 31 [7 favorites]

The sexual harassment cover-up thing for Shapiro seems pretty bad.
posted by Gadarene at 9:12 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

Weird, even.
posted by stet at 9:19 PM on July 31 [6 favorites]

I mean, it loses us some of the high ground on Trump being a sexual predator, that's for sure.

At least (?) the close friend and subordinate that Shapiro supposedly covered up for is a Republican.

Yup, love it when my prospective Democratic vice-presidential nominees have super-close friends who are Republicans.
posted by Gadarene at 9:56 PM on July 31 [14 favorites]

love it when my prospective Democratic vice-presidential nominees have super-close friends who are Republicans.

I'll match your sarcasm and raise it some sincerity.

We need more such friendships. Not with sexual harassers but with people who don't have the same placards on their front lawn. As far as I can see, political enemies managing to be real life friends is honestly the only way out of the mess we're in here collectively on planet E.

That said, if it's a Trump placard, I think I'm going to want to see you go through 12-step program before I can take you seriously ...
posted by philip-random at 10:06 PM on July 31 [10 favorites]

Kamala Harris' speech to the Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority in Houston- where she responds to the Trump interview earlier. I love the part where she says "And today we were given another reminder... this afternoon..." - and you can hear the laughter of the audience who sense this is the part they were waiting for.
posted by rongorongo at 10:46 PM on July 31 [9 favorites]

I’m gonna say we DON’T all need friends who are sexual predators on top of their supposedly above the board actions to remove everybody's rights.
posted by Artw at 10:59 PM on July 31 [23 favorites]

this short vid of the crowd at a Harris rally

Social media needs to start going after TFG on crowd numbers, which have been his #1 obsession from day 1. If you want to get under that fucker's weirdly thin skin, that's the way to do it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:20 PM on July 31 [12 favorites]

> My hunch, however, is that Harris has won over more people to offset that.

Pretty sure she still needs Michigan.
posted by constraint at 11:27 PM on July 31 [8 favorites]

Speaking of Tim Kaine (I know), why was the immediate focus on governors? Noted white-guy politicians in swing states include Michigan's Sen. Gary Peters (65), and Pennsylvania's Sen. Bob Casey (64).
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:07 AM on August 1

It’s because we can’t afford to lose any influence in the senate, and even swapping a new senator in for your Veep pick loses you influence. Thus, a short list of governors.
posted by FallibleHuman at 12:24 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]

The senators that were discussed, eg AZ’s Kelly, would get replaced by D’s. (Although in Kelly’s case only for 2 years). How senators get replaced is state dependent.
posted by nat at 12:29 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]

the 2024 election is going to be an historic disaster and an epic humiliation for Trump

Plz make it happen
posted by nicolin at 3:04 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

We need more such friendships. Not with sexual harassers but with people who don't have the same placards on their front lawn. As far as I can see, political enemies managing to be real life friends is honestly the only way out of the mess we're in here collectively on planet E.

Political parties are not sports teams, they're a reflection of values. I get what you're saying here but I'm transgender and I cannot be friends with people who think I'm a dangerous predator and vote for those who want to erase me from public life and it's hard for me to trust people who want to be buddies with dangerous and violent people who hate me.
posted by an octopus IRL at 3:35 AM on August 1 [62 favorites]

a sample of issues that do not get in the way of my being friends with someone in a different political party:

1. species of trees that should be planted in the urban center
2. paths of mass transit routes
3. using a lot to build a mall or a public park

a sample of issues that will get in the way of my being friends with someone in a different political party:

1. racism
2. viewing me and those i love as "degenerate" predators
3. imposition of religious beliefs in the public sphere
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:56 AM on August 1 [59 favorites]

In my professional circles in Pennsylvania (medical providers, social workers, health policy nerds), Shapiro is most infamous for leaning hard into drug delivery resulting in death charges during his time as attorney general. He is so proud of being tough on drug dealers that he talked up the number of defendants he arrested or prosecuted with that charge as part of a press release around one of the cases.

But the thing about drug delivery resulting in death is, there’s often no bright line between drug dealers and drug users. Instead of netting the larger suppliers bringing fentanyl into Pennsylvania, you’ll often catch one friend who brought a modest quantity of drugs to share with their social circle, and then gets arrested in the midst of a traumatic loss. Reading between the lines of the press release above, that seems like it may be the situation. Imagine arresting a grieving 20-something who just watched a friend die in front of them and thinking that’s sticking it to the cartels. That’s some galaxy-brain shit, and that’s the backbone of so much drug policy.

Combined with his comments about Gaza and protesters, this gives me a general impression of Shapiro as someone who’s happy to throw young or marginalized people under the bus to create an illusion of toughness and pragmatism.

Also, my impression of Shapiro as governor is that he won in no small part because his opponent, Doug Mastriano, was deeply weird in the Trumpian sense. Not to say he’s unpopular, just that he’s not an absolutely beloved figure who would bring uncommitted Pennsylvanians out in droves.
posted by ActionPopulated at 4:08 AM on August 1 [29 favorites]

After having watched the video linked above where Shapiro mentions the KKK, I am filled with wonder at what people are saying here.
He is very, very clear about his disagreement with Netanyahu. He is for a two-state solution. He is very, very clear about the right to free speech and protest. What he is saying is that while it is fair and even right to protest the Israeli massacre of innocents, anti-semitism and islamophobia are not OK. How can anyone disagree with that? Is there something else out there I am missing? Because if there isn't, I'm going to say that the anti-Shapiro sentiments that are based on his stance on Palestine are anti-semitic.

I do see the problems with school vouchers and tax-cuts, but my impression is that the Harris campaign is sending out some pretty progressive vibes, and there might be a need to convince some right-leaning independents in swing states they can vote for her. Electoral math is complicated.

While I have no idea what Kamala Harris told Netanyahu in private, I do think her administration will be more bullish on the rights of the Palestinian people, and the reason I believe that is the assassination of Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran. I think Netanyahu is scaling up the aggression because he knows he only has till January.
And at the end of the day, it's the president, not the VP who sets the tone on foreign policy.
posted by mumimor at 4:16 AM on August 1 [13 favorites]

It would be nice if the Dems started thinking about succession planning. Yes they need to consider how the VP pick may impact the electoral map this year, but if we dare to dream that they might be successful this year and again in four years… shouldn’t they also be thinking about how the VP pick potentially sets up the next presidential candidate?

I know, it’s impossible to imagine the Dems being that successful for so many terms but am I the only one who thinks of the VP as not just a mostly-figurehead tiebreaker but also the potential top of the ticket in 8 years time?
posted by misskaz at 4:31 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]

I get what you're saying here but I'm transgender and I cannot be friends with people who think I'm a dangerous predator and vote for those who want to erase me from public life and it's hard for me to trust people who want to be buddies with dangerous and violent people who hate me.

The concerns you're expressing here seem reasonable to me. They are shared by many people I know from minoritized groups, whether defined by gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity, ability, or other characteristic. You have my sympathy, as do all trans U.S. MeFites who have to choose between options that may range from hostile to indifferent, depending on where you are and who's on the ballot.

I don't know if you have specific candidates or groups in mind with "dangerous and violent people who hate me," but I think that painting broadly with that brush is one of MetaFilter's weaknesses. (Because MetaFilter is made up of individuals who have many opinions, I try not to generalize too much about what "MetaFilter" thinks. It's hard, but I do try.) Often "the site" does seem to me to feel that "dangerous and violent people who hate me" is a 100% reasonable descriptor for Republicans across the board, a group of ~160,000,000 people (~48% of the U.S. electorate, as polled by Pew in April 2024) with diverse opinions, however in lockstep they may (or not) vote.

I'm not a political scientist, and am only rarely a participant in #USPolitics threads, but I do think that Harris has to make choices that will mobilize more than just the Democratic base. A 48/48 split in U.S. political party affiliation seems intense, not something that either side getting the gavel is just going to erase. I don't expect "support trans rights" to be a Republican rallying cry in the near future, but (as has been pointed out here many times) a bunch of far-right wackos, some very wealthy, have been calling the shots on the right for a while now. My experience in talking with Republican voters is that many of them aren't happy with the extreme style of politics that Trump & the like represent. I don't think the millions of Republicans who dislike Trump have to be (y)our friends, necessarily; they have to be willing to compromise and to be a better class of opponent. YMMV.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:35 AM on August 1 [7 favorites]

But the thing about drug delivery resulting in death is, there’s often no bright line between drug dealers and drug users. Instead of netting the larger suppliers bringing fentanyl into Pennsylvania, you’ll often catch one friend who brought a modest quantity of drugs to share with their social circle, and then gets arrested in the midst of a traumatic loss.

This is a mind-bogglingly awful and tone-deaf take. If you are distributing a drug that kills someone, whether it’s to make money or to fund your own addiction, you are preying on addicts, and your direct actions have caused a death. I live in an opioid crisis state and it’s out of control. This isn’t a buddy having shitty cocaine or dirt weed and bumming people out. People selling hard drugs are doing it to prey on hard drug users, not being caught in the middle of some weird, just-so story like “oh the fentanyl I bought to share with my friend group turned out to be lethal.” Opioid addicts don’t just have “hospitality bowls” of oxys or heroin hanging out for people to enjoy. Opioids are very much not a social drug. I know this from experience, but luckily when I was using, heroin was just heroin, and the biggest worry was getting rolled by the dealer, not “oops it’s actually 50x stronger than you were expecting.” People trafficking in highly addictive and lethal drugs aren’t making a little oopsie, they’re killing people, and should be treated like killers, it does’t matter if they’re the head of the cartel or just a little guy in the food chain. Comparing it to a guy who gets 5 years for selling weed is absurd; that weed he had a pound of and broke a bit here and there off for buddies isn’t killing them. Same way I think firearm manufacturers and dealers should be culpable for people killed by the wares they sell and the way cops should be held responsible for people they kill. I find Shapiro less than ideal as a VP candidate, but this stance actually makes me more interested in him.
posted by HVACDC_Bag at 4:44 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]

I'm trying to understand why the Harris campaign is able to be quick (brat themed twitter page, for example) and aggressive immediately, when the Biden campaign seemed so flat footed and lethargic. Isn't it basically the same people, with the very important exception of the name at the top? It seems like the Harris campaign is way smarter - if the campaign staff know how to move fast on messaging, why weren't they doing that when it was Biden at the top? Or were they, but it wasn't getting cultural engagement because people were so checked out on Biden?

It is almost entirely the same staff. The Washington Post had an article on what the pivot looked like from the inside.
How Kamala Harris took control of the Democratic Party: Party officials and campaign aides raced to flip an entire brand from fading hope to salute emojis. (gift link)

The writers in Wilmington had to learn a new voice. Shelby Cole, the DNC’s chief mobilization officer, had been digital director for Harris’s 2020 campaign. She got on the phone with Wilmington for a live-fire training of how to write for the vice president, how to talk to voters without words like “malarkey” or references to ice cream.

It's extraordinary that they were able to do in a day what usually takes months. But maybe that's part of what made it work. Maybe cautiousness and overthinking was part of the problem.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 4:52 AM on August 1 [19 favorites]

> What he is saying is that while it is fair and even right to protest the Israeli massacre of innocents, anti-semitism and islamophobia are not OK. How can anyone disagree with that? Is there something else out there I am missing?

What you're missing is that pretty much anyone talking about anti semitism right now is doing it to distract from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and mute the impact of the protestors. It's explicitly the stated strategy of the ADL because it sounds so innocuous.

One side says "stop killing my people" and the other side says "stop antisemitism" and the genocide keeps happening because people feel some kind of equilibrium between the two statements.

Until the ethnic cleansing stops I think there needs to be a moratorium on discussing antisemitism.
posted by constraint at 5:44 AM on August 1 [13 favorites]

Like, the phrase "antisemitism" has become as much a dog whistle as the phrase "DEI hire". Which is a profound shame, as the misuse of accusations of antisemitism has profoundly damaged a key concept we needed to fight facism and hate.
posted by constraint at 5:47 AM on August 1 [17 favorites]

Until the ethnic cleansing stops I think there needs to be a moratorium on discussing antisemitism.

If I may, the moratorium such as it is, should not be a blanket rule. There are known bad and dishonest actors which have years of evidence built up against their abuse of the term and the crime eg ADL, providing cover for the antisemites taking advantage of the Palestinian genocide and occupation for their own ends. It provides fodder for the known bad actors, which is unfortunately, the dominant institutional actors in Jewish society (a fact Israel is keen to elide).

But yes, the whole being against antisemitism when levied against student protestors is very much the first case of terminology abuse. Speaking as a Muslim, remember when some right-wing American Muslim students tried to cancel art history courses for having Persian material depicting the Prophet Muhammad and classifying it as Islamophobia? It eventually blew over because there were Muslim voices speaking out. But that it got traction, well, thankfully the latent general Islamophobia in the West actually meant the counter-messaging fit the general norms of the West.

Something I think about when trying to counter antisemitism on the left (which does owe a lot of antecedents from general European antisemitism but also the communist bloc one).
posted by cendawanita at 5:57 AM on August 1 [7 favorites]

It's extraordinary that they were able to do in a day what usually takes months. But maybe that's part of what made it work. Maybe cautiousness and overthinking was part of the problem.

Thank you for this background info. The rapidity and thoroughness of the pivot in tone and aggressiveness in media has been really impressive.
posted by darkstar at 5:58 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]

As I said in the other thread it suprised the hell out of me. I fully expected to be in a more of infighting and uselessness while who the candidate was thrashed out and pretty much expected once energy had been depleted that way they’d go after Trump with the same listlessness Biden did - very happen to be proved absolutely wrong there.
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on August 1 [6 favorites]

I have never before read a book by a politician, I only slightly pay attention to inside-baseball campaign-strategy stuff, but if anyone writes an honest tell-all about this campaign after it's over, I will read it.
posted by Jeanne at 6:46 AM on August 1 [8 favorites]

Until the ethnic cleansing stops I think there needs to be a moratorium on discussing antisemitism.

I probably don't want to know the answer to this, but is this moratorium just in the context of Israel/Palestine? Like, can I point out that JD Vance uses a lot of antisemitic dog-whistles, or is that off limits because antisemitism is ok until you say so? (Or is the argument that it's unacceptable to discuss anything other than Israel/Palestine, and therefore there is no context in which antisemitism is relevant?)
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:12 AM on August 1 [12 favorites]

I thibk we might have to find a different term, like “anti-Jewish conspiracy theorist”, for Vance and the channers in his staff. They’ve certainly been able to roll out shit about Soros and “globalist parasites” under the cover of “antisemitism” not really being used to cover that sort of thing anymore. And dude is deeply, wildly permeated in that culture.
posted by Artw at 7:19 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]

Is there something else out there I am missing? Because if there isn't, I'm going to say that the anti-Shapiro sentiments that are based on his stance on Palestine are anti-semitic.

As a Jewish member of this community, I reject this as an extremely dangerous path to tread, considering that many of Shapiro's critics, as well as the students he attempted to smear as similar to the KKK, are themselves Jewish. Unsurprisingly, a number of these critics (such as David Klion, Emily Tamkin, and Simone Zimmerman) are now themselves being smeared as antisemitic, "As a Jew", self-hating saboteurs.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:21 AM on August 1 [22 favorites]

KOSA off the table for now. Thanks… squabbling republicans?
posted by Artw at 7:21 AM on August 1 [10 favorites]

I definitely do not think there should be a moratorium on discussions of antisemitism for a lot of reasons, primarily that it's a real and serious and important issue and, also, I have a lot of Jewish friends who want to be able to talk about the antisemitism of claiming they're not really Jewish because they support Palestine or are anti-Zionists (I'm not Jewish but do want to share what some people I care about have said about this). I do agree that a lot of people have weaponized accusations of antisemitism to deflect attention away from the Palestine genocide currently occuring and it's disgusting (and Harris's statement which I mentioned above does this too). I think there are a lot of bad-faith accusations out there and we shouldn't let them distract us from what's happening before our eyes but I don't think the answer is shutting down conversations about antisemitism.
posted by an octopus IRL at 7:22 AM on August 1 [12 favorites]

That said I do think "peaceful protest" has become basically a dog whistle to frame everyone engaging in direct action outside a very narrow definition of "respectable" protest as violent and deserving of consequences be they legal, academic, or involve physical violence from the police who are so often the ones escalating and actually bringing violence into a given space. When you consider burning a flag, which is an inanimate object, more violent than pepper spraying human beings or the literal burning of Palestinians that the flag burners are protesting I struggle to contain my rage and horror.
posted by an octopus IRL at 7:31 AM on August 1 [11 favorites]

Been thinking of two particular VP picks, and on the vibes front, the comp couldn't be starker.

Tim Walz comes across as the salt of the frickin earth. I implicitly trust this guy every time I see him speak.

Josh Shapiro has a bit of charisma, as far as politicians go, but def feels like a politician when he speaks. Also, I dunno if it's just me, but I always feel like he's doing an Obama impression. Off-brand Obama.
posted by ishmael at 8:01 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]

philip-random Once upon a time there was a Democrat with a huge following and a tremendous amount of influence. He was also a super bipartisanship kind of guy and one of his besties was a Republican Rep from a purple district, leaning blue, in Texas.

I'm talking about Beto O'Rorke and Will Hurd.

In the 2018 election things were tight in Hurd's district. He was facing Gino Ortiz Jones, a popular up and coming Democrat, the Trump backlash was in full effect, and despite the incumbant advantage it was an incredibly tight race with Ortiz Jones looking like she had the advantage.

And then?

Then Beto fucking O'Rorke stabbed Ortiz Jones in the back. He not only ENDORSED his Republican friend over a Democrat, he actually went out and campaigned for Will Hurd because he valued his bipartisan friendship above winning.

So I'm not really a fan of the idea of bipartisan friendships. When I hear that a Democrat has Republican friends I don't think they're going to betray us, I expect it.

Hell, remember that Trump would likely have lost to Hillary Clinton except for Obama's bipartisanship fetish resulting in him keeping a fanatic anti-Clinton Republican in charge of the FBI which enabled him to time his investigation reports for the maximum possible damage to Clinton's candidacy.

And now we have Shapiro, who may well do serious harm to Harris' campaign because he covered up for a Republican friend of his who was a sexual predator. If Harris picks Shapiro the entire "predator vs prosecutor" framing goes right out the window because all Trump and the others have to say is "what about Shapiro, see they're all the same" and that's the end of that.

Leave aside his lapdog devotion to billionaire tax cheats. Leave aside his visceral hatred for public education. Leave aside his hatred for people who oppose Israel's genocide.

Just the part where Shapiro covered up for a sexual predator (let alone a Republican sexual predator) should end any consideration of him as a VP pick.

It won't. Becuse the Democrats are always self defeating and never seem to have any joy in life unless they're shooting themselves in the foot and otherwise guaranteeing they'll lose, but it should.

And? There's also this to consider. If Harris does pick Shapiro, and then wons, then in 8 years Shapiro is going to be the inevitable Democratic candidate for President....
posted by sotonohito at 8:05 AM on August 1 [31 favorites]

I'm going to say that the anti-Shapiro sentiments that are based on his stance on Palestine are anti-semitic

It's not, find something else to defend Shapiro on
posted by windbox at 8:20 AM on August 1 [14 favorites]

Harris campaign has enlivened voters, say Black organizers: ‘The energy is palpable’: Grassroots groups say mobilizing voters is easier after Biden left the race and Harris’s candidacy now gains steam [The Guardian]

Initial polls show Harris in a neck-and-neck race with Donald Trump, but there are indications of significant shifts in the race. A CNN poll released last week found that 50% of Harris backers said their support of her was more pro-Harris than anti-Trump. In a June CNN poll, just 37% of Biden’s supporters said their support was about backing the president rather than being against Trump.

“It does change the energy, and to a certain extent, it changes the messages,” said Cliff Albright, a co-founder of Black Voters Matter Fund, which is supportive of Harris’s candidacy. “The full toolbox is open. We can go anti-Trump, or we can go pro-Kamala, or we can talk about some aspects of her record more, and the administration more, so it just expands the tools that we have at our disposal.”

posted by mazola at 8:25 AM on August 1 [11 favorites]

Who'd have thunk?
posted by Gadarene at 8:38 AM on August 1

(don't have the ability to edit for some reason, but that was in response to mazola's post)
posted by Gadarene at 8:39 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]

I'm talking about Beto O'Rorke and Will Hurd.

this is taking one situation involving two people and applying to all situations and people, and in aid of a resolute refusal of any attempt at bipartisanship. Or am I missing something?

Up above, someone else used the fact that (and it is a fact, I'm pretty sure) that it's more likely for a Republican to be anti-trans than a Democrat. Therefore, we should fear ALL Republicans in this regard.

Bluntly, neither of these feel like strong arguments, both wanting to simplify something that is the definition of complex. I know a number of people who call themselves conservatives who are NOT anti-trans. Far from it. They're big on personal liberty, small on perceived govt interference in how they run their affairs. Yeah, they lean Libertarian, but they don't call themselves that, because I honestly think they don't think that much about it. They've got lives going on, kids to feed, jobs to show up for. Politics for them only really takes precedence every now and then. As to how they actually vote, that seems to become a battle between their at times opposed interests. And left-leaning types have their own versions of these dilemmas. Sounds pretty human to me.

I don't think we get anywhere by insisting any of this is as black and white as these two arguments seem to want them to be.
posted by philip-random at 9:01 AM on August 1 [6 favorites]

Now there's a good example of some blatant antisemitism.

3/4 of my family is Jewish, and I wouldn't take offense at that - in the US, at least, it's a pretty Jewish name.

In a country where synagogues are being shot up by legit fascists, this doesn't even register, TBH,
posted by ryanshepard at 9:02 AM on August 1 [6 favorites]

not all republicans, I guess.
posted by sagc at 9:03 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

not all republicans, I guess.

well yeah, because in both instances the implications were that it was ALL Republicans. At least, that's how I took it.
posted by philip-random at 9:05 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]

like, is the argument seriously that trans people should be less fearful of republicans, because one a poster on this site knows some good republicans who only do evil at the ballot box?

Maybe think about who you're talking to, and what you're actually arguing for. These aren't just abstract disagreements, this is life and death for people.
posted by sagc at 9:07 AM on August 1 [24 favorites]

neroli I'm not being sarcastic here but you may be genuinley surprised to know that many, possibly even most, people are not always hyper aware of people's surnames and their possible religious linkage.

Or maybe I'm just uniquely uncaring and/or oblivious?

I dunno. I never gave it any thought at all to be honest. I generally don't think about religion at all unless it's brought up by someone else, and when thinking about a person I don't wonder or think about what their religion is unless they're wearing some sort of religiously linked clothing. I recognize that a man wearing a turban is probably a Sikh for example, or a woman in a headscarf is likely Muslim. But otherwise? It's not important to me and I don't give a shit.

I'm aware, now that you remind me, that Shapiro is one of the stereotypically Jewish surnames. Though I assume that some people who aren't Jewish might also have that name? I know all the *burg names are often Jewish but not exclusively.

Huh. I never thought about it but I just checked and yup, apparently Ruth Bader Ginsburg was Jewish. TIL.

It's entirely possible that this uncaring ignorance of Jewish surnames and other identifiers isn't good, in the same way that when some white persons says they don't see color isn't good. But good or not, it's the truth.

I don't care enough that it ever occurrs to me, or that my brain links specific surnames with Judaism.
posted by sotonohito at 9:07 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

I did not know that about about Beto and absolutely will hold it against him FWIW. Exactly the kind of shit I mean when I say “pull a Manchin”.
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on August 1 [16 favorites]

philip-random I can't speak for anyone else but I absolutely meant all Republicans.

Saying "I'm friends with a Republican" is, to me, the same as saying "I'm friends with someone who wants you dead".

Sure, maybe not every single Republican voter is a slavering anti-trans homophobic misogynist racist. But they all vote for slavering anti-trans homophobic misogynist racists so fuck 'em all.

You know what you call a person who voted for Hitler because he liked his tax plan, or thought the Wimer Republic needed to be shaken up? You call them a Nazi.

I don't care why a person votes Republican. Or is a Republican. It means they either actively support killing people I care about, or they are OK with people I care about being killed.

The only good Repulican is a former Republican.
posted by sotonohito at 9:11 AM on August 1 [24 favorites]

You have to judge politicians by what they do, not what's in their heart. Republicans as a party do terrible things. I don't really care if some of them wish they weren't doing all the terrible things, the terrible things still happen. To people I love and care about, and to the planet in general. So any individual Republican who votes Republican is part of the problem.
posted by emjaybee at 9:15 AM on August 1 [13 favorites]

Jewishness is both an ethnicity and a religion. Someone's last name doesn't tell you anything about their religion, because people convert, intermarry, etc. But there are some names that are pretty reliably ethnically Jewish: anyone whose last name is Cohen or Levy is going to have Jewish ancestors. There are also some names (the -burg and -stein names, for instance) that are pretty commonly Jewish in English-speaking countries but are generic German names in German-speaking countries. I would put Shapiro more in the former category than the latter. It doesn't have explicit religious meaning in the way that Levy and Cohen do, but I've never heard of a non-Jew (in the ethnic sense) being named Shapiro.

Having said that, I absolutely believe that many people have no idea that Shapiro is a Jewish name. But it is not antisemitic to recognize Jewish names, any more than it would be antisemitic to recognize an Irish name or a Greek name.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:24 AM on August 1 [7 favorites]

Sounds pretty human to me.

turns out, a lot of humans suck
posted by knobknosher at 9:25 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]

“The only good [whatever]” is rhetorical violence steeped in blood. It does not belong on MetaFilter.
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:26 AM on August 1 [7 favorites]

Often "the site" does seem to me to feel that "dangerous and violent people who hate me" is a 100% reasonable descriptor for Republicans across the board, a group of ~160,000,000 people (~48% of the U.S. electorate, as polled by Pew in April 2024) with diverse opinions, however in lockstep they may (or not) vote.

best case scenario for a Republican voter is they're not personally a dangerous violent person who hates us, they're simply trying to fill the government with dangerous violent people who hate us

it does not matter which exact part of the Republican platform they like so much that they are willing to vote for the dangerous violent people who hate us if they can only have that

there's not a checkbox on the ballot that says "hey I'm just doing this to keep my guns or whatever, I'm cool with the LGBTQs, you guys can chill it with the book bans and I'm okay if we don't actually live in the Handmaid's Tale and please don't do another coup uwu"

you vote in the KFC Failure Bowl you get the whole fucking abortion-banning LGBTQ-hating democracy-dismantling science-denying white supremacist aspirational-dictatorship KFC goddamn Failure Bowl

so best case scenario a Republican voter is willing to sell out every person who doesn't want to live in that world -- including people who are literally going to suffer and die in that world -- in exchange for whatever the fuck it is they think they're gonna get, cheaper gallon of gas, idfk

I'm not gonna hang out at a fucking potluck with people who are like "sorry I voted for the death camps, you & your partner both pass as straight if you delete your social media and burn all your pride shit though, so you should be fine right? here try this green bean casserole"
posted by taquito sunrise at 9:29 AM on August 1 [30 favorites]

Voting for actual violent bigots: understandable, please be nicer to the people doing this, why don’t we all get along 🙏🏼

Posting comments on a website: violence; steeped in blood
posted by knobknosher at 9:30 AM on August 1 [44 favorites]

Not for nothing, but this is the ACAB vs. "a few bad apples" debate all over again.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:35 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]

People who grew up in areas without a strong Jewish presence are less likely to "clock" specific names as Jewish. The Jewish community in New York City is about 10% of the population, in my city it's less than 2%. It takes data points to build associations and not knowing "Shapiro" is a Jewish surname wouldn't be unusual in a lot of locations.

(My trouble is I grew up and live in an area where German ancestry is overrepresented which is also fairly racially diverse, so surnames like Emhoff, Schumer, Blumenthal, etc. are just like, what surnames are like to me. And it doesn't occur to me it could indicate anything about someone's background because I've known people with similar surnames of all kinds of backgrounds. I knew Josh Shapiro was Jewish but it didn't occur to me that his name specifically had a Jewish background. TIL!)

But if you do recognize a name as being typically Jewish, that's not functionally different from recognizing that, say, Rodriguez is typically a Hispanic name.
posted by brook horse at 9:36 AM on August 1 [10 favorites]

By the illogic on display here—everyone who votes D is voting for everything that all Democratic politicians everywhere have ever supported. So, maybe think on that a little bit. Guess I’m going to hope for a bipartisan monster coalition, such that we do not actually wind up with a country that goes as hard against minoritized folks as some parts of the country currently do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:37 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]

what

maybe i'm not parsing right, but what is a "bipartisan monster coalition", and how does it help protect trans people more than a coalition with fewer monsters?
posted by sagc at 9:39 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

There are tons of transphobic liberals, too, the bipartisan monster coalition could be just another bunch of genocidal wackos.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:42 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]

I think the monster is in reference to size, not behaviour.
posted by philip-random at 9:43 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]

By the illogic on display here—everyone who votes D is voting for everything that all Democratic politicians everywhere have ever supported.

Are you able to understand that current republicans are currently supporting and enacting extremely fucked up shit? Currently? We’re not talking about things the Dems have “ever supported,” we are talking about reality right now.
posted by knobknosher at 9:43 AM on August 1 [16 favorites]

The U.S. is super-polarized right now. we keep passing control back and forth between parties—to me, it seems like more than usual, and with more (of the worst) intensity. I 100% appreciate Overton window issues, and I don’t want to consent to horrors, but I have a hard time seeing constant intense back and forth as viable in the long term, let alone for people whose rights are, right now, under attack.
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:46 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Being nicer to people who want to commit atrocities is not the solution. I realize you probably didn’t mean it that way but saying “I don’t want to consent to horrors, but” should make you pause and reconsider whether you may be consenting to horrors
posted by knobknosher at 9:50 AM on August 1 [18 favorites]

cupcakeninja, are you worried about some sort of left-fascism? Or just people not allying with Republicans now? Because I don't think anything that has happened - or any of the comments in the thread - have been advocating for the former, and you haven't really provided any arguments regarding the latter.

Like, what are people doing wrong here, other than recognizing that some people are voting for a party that wants them dead and making choices based on that knowledge?
posted by sagc at 9:53 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

This is why we still get awful thinkpieces from centrist civility police, whining about how cruel women on the left are for not wanting to give angry young MAGA men a traditional family.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:55 AM on August 1 [15 favorites]

Civility is supposed to connect people whose opposing viewpoints mean they have different ideas on what the highest tax rate should be or how bridges should be funded, not for whether your loved ones should be put into camps, deported, or killed.

The only people who truly believe this kind of disagreement should be shrugged are people who do no have any skin in the game.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:04 AM on August 1 [13 favorites]

I don't think cupcakeninja is saying anything remotely controversial. The culture-war stuff that has resulted in an almost straight-down-the-middle polarization of the country is unsustainable, and has to end if this country is to continue to exist. We have things to do that are going to need more than just half the house and half the senate to accomplish, or else the entire world economy collapses, nothing gets done on climate, nothing gets done on the courts, and we spend our whole lives with a democratic existential crisis.

But there's a correct order to things: You can't ally with the culture warriors at this point, because they're hyped up on their propaganda and can't behave long enough to be useful. So first you must defeat them and defang their movement. Make sure they understand they're on the losing side. Then find who among them is willing to work on the needed legislation.

We've already seen the opposite at play--that disappointing "reaching across the aisle" that establishment democrats are addicted to, where they lose in advance. But some of them have to be amenable to reason--or at least to power--and can be convinced to vote the right way.
posted by mittens at 10:05 AM on August 1 [13 favorites]

when Biden dropped out and Harris came off the bench it created this huge groundswell of excitement that I really think was bolstered by a feeling of the Democrats actually acting like a fucking opposition party for once. People wanted something to happen, and they felt like democrats actually came through and made it happen!

In the context of the potential Shapiro pick, I want to step back to this idea for a second because I think it's illustrative of something that gets lost. Because I have this same gut reaction too -- they were doing so great! The Dems were making effective strategic moves that inspired and motivated hundreds of thousands or millions of people! The excitement is still buzzing in the air. Why does it seem like they're ready to give that momentum away?

But that's only the perception because we're the ones bringing the excitement, to each other. And it's excitement about possibly, just maybe, having the chance to avoid disaster. That's worth getting excited about! Here's what concretely happened: a candidate far past his ability to execute a winning presidential campaign did the thing that his voters have asked him to do for weeks, and which he seemed open to doing years ago. A thing that was so obviously called for that the biggest newspapers in the world were printing editorials asking him to do it. He ended his campaign. And when he did, who stepped into his place? The obvious and only tenable candidate: his vice president, who we all already voted for to do exactly this thing.

The Dems didn't make any radical decisions or galaxy-brained political chess moves. They did almost literally the only non-catastrophic thing they could do, in a situation in which not doing anything would also have been catastrophic. I'm glad they did it, but if you feel excitement and momentum and finally a see light at the end of the tunnel, it's because we're excited, we feel hope again, we're doing all of that narrative-building internally. All the Dem campaign is doing is just not getting in the way, and it sure would be swell if they could keep not getting in the way. I'm glad Harris is running and I'll be happy to vote for her, but I'm kinda ready to stop pinning medals on the Dems for doing the bare minimum, literally, for once. Let's just get three outs. Let's just put this thing to fucking bed.
posted by penduluum at 10:10 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]

The “monster” is in reference to the rhetoric I often see here directed at both leading political parties. I would be delighted to see politicians come to their senses and decide to give up on bigotry, forming a giant coalition to that end, but I’m not holding my breath.

knobknosher—I can appreciate your perspective, but I don’t see it as helpful to categorize half of the country, more or less, as monsters. I really do not see a good way forward from the most intense rhetoric espoused here (generally, not this thread). Someone out there will (oops, on preview already has) implied that I’m naive about that, and I don’t know! Perhaps the left can come together more effectively than it sometimes has.

sagc, maybe I’m misreading, but it seems like there were some arguments upthread about why the Harris campaign should, in essence, not choose a running mate who seems to be a kinda standard-issue pol. I do not have a real opinion about who the VP pick should be, but my heart sank when I saw comments on the site last week suggesting radical choices that I have doubts about enough people supporting to have a shot at winning. I’d love to see a bunch of my interests and concerns more throughly represented, but the country seems to slant the way it does.

(And my lunch is long past over, and I gotta go—might pop in later. Thanks for giving me some things to think about.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 10:11 AM on August 1

The original comment about Republican friends wasn't about bringing a Republican to a bbq. It was about a Democrat politician helping sway an election so a Republican took off instead of a Democrat. The stakes are much higher, and the responsibility is much higher. It's hard to maintain enthusiasm for the Dem party, which they desperately need, when you see them do stuff like that that implies they don't even take Dems winning as seriously as the voters do. Another example is Pelosi campaigning for an anti-abortion candidate after the Dobbs ruling. It shows that "we're doing everything we can to protect your rights" is a lie and turns off many voters and volunteers.
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:16 AM on August 1 [18 favorites]

*took office
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:17 AM on August 1

Not sure why this is being reported like it's new but: Andrew Stockey, WTAE "From ABC News: According to sources familiar, Vice President Harris’ vetting team has met with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro and Arizona Senator Mark Kelly."
posted by cashman at 10:17 AM on August 1

Looks like the reporting stems from this ABC News article

Harris' vetting team met with VP hopefuls Shapiro, Kelly

Harris' vetting team met with Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro and Arizona Sen. Mark Kelly -- two vice presidential hopefuls, according to sources familiar. The vetting team has met with other candidates as well, the sources added.

As meetings continue, the pool of vice presidential candidates has narrowed from a dozen, sources said.

Harris only has days to make a decision on her running mate. This process that normally takes months has been truncated and her team is doing it in weeks.

Harris is set to begin a tour of battleground states with her running mate on Tuesday.

ABC News' Selina Wang, Will McDuffie and Katherine Faulders

posted by cashman at 10:19 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]

A dozen? Dang.
posted by grubi at 10:22 AM on August 1

I can appreciate your perspective, but I don’t see it as helpful to categorize half of the country, more or less, as monsters.

I think we're all trying to say that it doesn't matter if you're personally a monster or not, if you keep inviting monsters into the house, the house is gonna fill up with monsters, and it's completely reasonable for the children who live in the house and taste delicious to monsters to feel like maybe it is bad for you to keep doing that, and it doesn't super matter if you insist that you yourself are not a monster and you happen to love the children who are being eaten by the monsters you invited into the house
posted by taquito sunrise at 10:22 AM on August 1 [33 favorites]

I do not have a real opinion about who the VP pick should be, but my heart sank when I saw comments on the site last week suggesting radical choices that I have doubts about enough people supporting to have a shot at winning.

I'm curious which radical choices you're referring to, because Walz and Beshear are, if anything, the antithesis of radical.
posted by Gadarene at 10:28 AM on August 1 [14 favorites]

Disappointed it's not Walz (I still root for Kelly, I now dread the drama that will come with Shapiro), but it sounds like "who gets the most in the way of a state" is the top criteria?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:59 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]

DNC kicks off virtual roll call vote to formally nominate Kamala Harris for president

The Democratic Party began the formal vote to nominate Vice President Kamala Harris for president on Thursday, kicking off a virtual roll call that will cement her status as the party's standard-bearer heading into November.

The Democratic National Committee opened the vote to the delegates who will decide the party's nominee at 9 a.m. Delegates are emailed a personalized and watermarked form, and they can either send the form back or have the DNC call them to cast their vote. Ballots are being sent on a rolling basis, and the process is expected to take several days, with the voting window closing at 6 p.m. on Aug. 5.

The DNC said it will share the full results of the roll call after it is completed, but it's unclear whether they will make an announcement when Harris passes the threshold needed to secure a majority of 1,976 delegates.

The outcome of the vote is not in doubt, given that Harris has the support and endorsement of nearly all of the pledged Democratic delegates. Close to 3,900 delegates have indicated they support Harris through their signatures to get her onto the virtual ballot in the first place.

Harris is slated to make history as the first Black woman to be nominated for president in U.S. history.

posted by cashman at 11:01 AM on August 1 [7 favorites]

Is Walz officially out?
posted by pxe2000 at 11:01 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]

Civility is supposed to connect people whose opposing viewpoints mean they have different ideas on what the highest tax rate should be or how bridges should be funded, not for whether your loved ones should be put into camps, deported, or killed.

Civility is a requirement for resolving long-standing, highly polarized conflicts.

Nelson Mandela treated officials of the apartheid regime with civility, and his ability to do that led to the peaceful transition to majority rule.

Civility allowed Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland to set aside the fact that they thought of each other as monsters and murderers, and instead sit down and create democratic frameworks for living together.

Rabin and Arafat treated each other with civility and attempted to create peace between their peoples, even though the populations on each side had experienced other as terrorist, murderer, monster.

None of this is to say that you should treat differences lightly. You shouldn't ignore the issues. You can't engage with people who aren't operating in good faith. But overcoming polarization is only possibly through civil discourse with people you disagree with deeply. The alternatives are ongoing conflict, or the utter annihilation of one side.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:06 AM on August 1 [18 favorites]

If she picks Shapiro, at least I don't have to worry about making time in my schedule for door-to-door canvassing and fundraising.

It will be nice to just completely disengage until it's time to cast my vote.
posted by Gadarene at 11:10 AM on August 1 [8 favorites]

Is Walz officially out?

No, not that I've seen. But certainly most stuff points to Shapiro.
posted by cashman at 11:13 AM on August 1

Is Walz officially out?

Haven't seen anything saying that yet. I think we're just in the scattershot rumors phase. I got texts from multiple friends yesterday with what they characterized as inside knowledge that it's going to be Shapiro. "Inside knowledge" as in, I am not connected, they are not connected, we are not connected to anyone is connected, we are all just regular people, but so-and-so's aunt has a good friend in the Pennsylvania Dem Party who insists it's 98% certain to be Shapiro. Lots of rumors out there by interested parties who are getting ahead of the campaign's narrative. Would love to be on a golf course outside of Tempe this weekend and hear what the unsourced chatter sounds like.

I'm sure it ends up Shapiro or Kelly at this point, though. First-level comfort should be that Shapiro won't be in charge of I/P policy and Kelly won't be in charge of immigration policy. Second-level (unlikely, reaching for hope) comfort is that maybe the whole Biden SNAFU breaks the taboo around primarying people, and eight years from now a Shapiro or Kelly gets a challenge from someone with better values or at least a better Obama impression. Third-level comfort, that Kamala's VP loses eight years from now, is no comfort at all, being both likely and bad for the country and the world.
posted by kensington314 at 11:14 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

How many people out there in MeFi land are having an issue where the Edit function isn't present? Someone else mentioned it in this thread, and I'm also experiencing it.
posted by kensington314 at 11:16 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]

I haven't noticed it.
posted by grubi at 11:16 AM on August 1

Whoops -- I take that back.
posted by grubi at 11:16 AM on August 1

Whoops -- I take that back.

You can't take it back. That's the thing with Edit being broken.
posted by kensington314 at 11:19 AM on August 1 [25 favorites]

Dangit, you're right. I'm TRAPPED.
posted by grubi at 11:21 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

You can't engage with people who aren't operating in good faith. But overcoming polarization is only possibly through civil discourse with people you disagree with deeply.

Just relocates the part we're disagreeing about. When people are dog-whistling about extermination camps, the end of secular democracy, etc., you can't combat those views with healthy debate in the good ol' marketplace of ideas if they won't admit they hold them. But if concealing their own positions means they're not operating in good faith, we're still exactly where we started.
posted by penduluum at 11:24 AM on August 1 [6 favorites]

Yall, it's gonna be Shapiro it looks like.

NBC Philadephia: Pennsylvania Gov. Shapiro cancels Hamptons fundraiser, days before expected Harris VP reveal

Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro has cancelled a trip to the ritzy New York beach enclave of the Hamptons, as he's being considered to be Vice President Kamala Harris' running mate, according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter.

Shapiro was supposed to go to at least two events in the Hamptons, including a meet and greet with wealthy donors at the home of public relations executive Mike Kempner.

"The Governor's trip was planned several weeks ago and included several fundraisers for his own campaign committee," Shapiro spokesman Manuel Bonder said. "His schedule has changed and he is no longer traveling to the Hamptons this weekend."

The meeting at Kempner's home in Water Mill, N.Y. on Sunday was set to have over 100 people attend, including those from the legal, sports and finance industries, the person explained. This person was granted anonymity in order to speak freely about a private matter.

Shapiro was also supposed to be at a fundraiser in East Hampton on Saturday for a group called The Next 50, according to an invite.

Shapiro has emerged as a favorite among some Harris advisers in part because he is so popular in the must-win swing state. Shapiro's approval ratings are some of the highest of any governor in the nation.

He is also widely viewed as a moderate Democrat, with a pro-business agenda and a willingness to find common ground with Republicans.

posted by cashman at 11:25 AM on August 1 [2 favorites]

So "signs" are pointing to Shapiro. I have no knowledge either way, but one thing that comes to mind is what I've seen as a college football fan. This might be an odd angle to approach these things, but if I can point you to this story by Alex Kirshner about the parallels between college football coaches and the discourse around whether or not Biden should drop out, I think it's pertinent. So one thing that happens all. the. time. in coaching searches is that there's rumors, highly placed sources, everything is pointing to this guy being the one (and often multiple different guys get their time as the pick of the day.) In the end, sometimes the rumored name is the guy who is hired, but oftentimes it's not, and it comes to light afterwards that most of what these people with "sources" were saying was complete BS. I'm just going to wait until the pick is announced, because no one actually knows right now and the people who know are probably not talking.
posted by azpenguin at 11:26 AM on August 1 [9 favorites]

Winnie the Proust, it's important that we do not confuse civility of the "treat everyone with respect" type with the civility of the "act like co-signing mass murder is just a disagreement among friends" type.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:26 AM on August 1 [13 favorites]

The only good Republican is a former Republican.

One thing that came to mind that, to me, is a crucial difference between the GOP and Dems right now is that the GOP has become a unified movement that has consistently voiced very specific goals and values as a party. The Dems are just not that; they are still a coalition party, regardless of who is at the head.
So, yes, the current GOP is more like the Nazis. There is no subtlety, no major schism. They seem to be united.
The Dems can't be painted with one brush; especially not when it comes to Gaza or trans rights or the like. There are open and major disagreements and debates.

And as for the above comment being "rhetorical violence steeped in blood" . . . I think this comment is an inversion of and progression from those old sayings. Especially as it inherently offers a choice . . .
YMMV ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by pt68 at 11:31 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Georgia may be unfixably broken. They you take anyone off the ballot if you have their personal details and they just leaked everyone’s personal details.
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

Yeah there really needs to be a new thread about voter shenanigans the Republicans are pulling. With that one person sounding the alarm about voting challenges and tv shows talking about how there are around 75 people in various positions who will try to resist certifying elections, to that Georgia news that broke yesterday (definitely text anybody you know in GA cause they are gonna be white-knuckling it the next few months) to a county in another state, I think maybe Texas, that changed it so you can't register online anymore, you have to print out a form and take it in, in person. I think the info I saw said you can mail it in but the guidance was to take it in in person to avoid another 'oopsie you cannot vote' situation.

Add to that the info going around that suggested republican pollworkers may try to place an errant mark on a ballot or two that they can then throw out later because of errant marks, and there really should be a post on it if anyone is up to the task.
posted by cashman at 11:39 AM on August 1 [16 favorites]

I am a human being. In theory, I should have more rights than guns. In theory, one political party shouldn't be running decades worth of attack ads presenting me as a threat and predator. And yet, they do. Anti LGBTQUIA+ rhetoric is part of the Republicans official party philosophy. There's no subtlety there.

The line between 'I don't vote for evil Culture War bullshit' but 'Still voted Republican for REaSonS!' is..... So microscopic as to be virtually non-existent. If one person dies because of Republicans propaganda (And we do!!!!!) then there's blood on all their hands. Does it matter if the majority of people voting for actual evil are good, hardworking people? At what point is there too much dirt in your food, too much hate behind policies, too much evil in the party? No good Nazi is my belief.

And yes, I wish these people health and happiness and prosperity. Way, way more than they want me to ever have. I just don't think they should be able to vote or espouse vile hate constantly.

They can talk when they understand humanity.
posted by Jacen at 11:42 AM on August 1 [11 favorites]

Civility is a requirement for resolving long-standing, highly polarized conflicts.

the problem is that if the other side were capable of treating those they disagreed with as human beings worthy of life and dignity, there would be no conflict.

Nelson Mandela treated officials of the apartheid regime with civility, and his ability to do that led to the peaceful transition to majority rule.

Civility allowed Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland to set aside the fact that they thought of each other as monsters and murderers, and instead sit down and create democratic frameworks for living together.

Rabin and Arafat treated each other with civility and attempted to create peace between their peoples, even though the populations on each side had experienced other as terrorist, murderer, monster.

All of these required long term campaigns of violent resistance to bring the oppressors to the table. Nelson Mandela was jailed as a terrorist before he was taken seriously as the leader of a movement. Civility is granted in response to the oppressor acknowledging the legitimacy of the oppressed and the necessity of coexisting with them. That has not happened in the US. "Civility" to an active fascist movement if betrayal of their victims.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:47 AM on August 1 [17 favorites]

Another bonus to picking Walz. Lt. Governor Peggy Flanagan (White Earth Ojibwe) would become the first Native American female governor of a state.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:48 AM on August 1 [7 favorites]

I'm just going to wait until the pick is announced, because no one actually knows right now and the people who know are probably not talking.

Hey! Me and you came on this dusty site formally within a span of 6 weeks of one another, way back before Obama was president. I too am a fan of sports, including college football. And basketball. And the NBA. And the NFL. Like back to the Terry Bradshaw/Don Shula/Diesel days. Familiar with phrases like 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

But back to the modern day and how these kids talk, "My brother in christ"....it's Shapiro. This isn't where one coach can use the reports to negotiate a bigger contract to stay with her organization when they freak out because they think they're going to lose her.

There's nothing to gain among Democrats by floating Shapiro and then going a different route. We were already sky high. Only place to come is back down a bit. People here hate his guts, but elsewhere it's a different story and you can see loads of folks saying "No I don't want him as VP because he's awesome and we need him to stay in PA and keep fixing stuff!"

I mean it's not decided until it's announced, but there's no reason for us to look at how bright its getting outside and pretend like it's not the sunrise. All signs point to that dude. And as much as I'd like Walz or even settle for Kelly, it's kind of depressing to think (back to sports) either one of them is gonna pull off that 3-1 comeback.

Here's to hoping though.
posted by cashman at 11:49 AM on August 1 [5 favorites]

JD Vance has the most to lose if Kamala Harris taps Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz as her running mate
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:54 AM on August 1 [6 favorites]

(I like Walz too)
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:54 AM on August 1 [1 favorite]

I fucking hate JD Vance, so…
posted by Artw at 11:56 AM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Someone else has mentioned Walz for Secretary of Education and since I know the Harris team reads MetaFilter, I would second that. Would make me feel way better about a Shapiro pick.
posted by kensington314 at 11:57 AM on August 1 [4 favorites]

Someone else has mentioned Walz for Secretary of Education and since I know the Harris team reads MetaFilter, I would second that. Would make me feel way better about a Shapiro pick.

I have bad news for you about the ability of agency heads to accomplish virtually anything progressive in this post-Loper Bright and post-Corner Post hellscape that the radical and illegitimate Court majority has fashioned...

If Walz isn't paid the respect he deserves of being the Vice Presidential nominee, I'd rather he stay in Minnesota where he can do some damn good.
posted by Gadarene at 12:04 PM on August 1 [7 favorites]

If it's Shapiro I will still vote for her and I will mostly keep my leftist criticisms to myself in the interest of unity or not dampening enthusiasm or whatever but it will feel like a slap in the face as someone who believes in the humanity of Palestinians and supports the rights of protestors, even uncivil ones.
posted by an octopus IRL at 12:04 PM on August 1 [19 favorites]

campaigns of violent resistance to bring the oppressors to the table

I am shocked that anyone thinks the violent resistance in this case is what "brought the oppressors to the table," rather than keeping them working as hard as they could at oppressing for as long as possible. All of those conflicts lasted DECADES. Negotiations didn't happen until political realities (popular support and alliances) loosened the oppressors' grasp on power AND they decided they could trust their counterparties enough for a meaningful negotiation.

You know what helps win popular support and the support of allies for terrible governments, though, though? Sympathy for the victims of violence attacks. You know who powerful people DON'T want to negotiate with? Terrorists. Violence helps keep strongmen in power. People who feel threatened are MORE willing to give up liberty for security.

Gandhi and MLK advocated for non-violent resistance not just because it is humane, but because it works. When political questions are decided by violence, the most violent end up getting to dictate policy. I think of the (very recent) Syrian civil war and shudder. But also of Napoleon, Stalin, and all the other dictators who took over in the wake of what seemed at the time to be successful revolutions against other dictators.

Nonviolent resistance proves potent weapon

Chenoweth and Stephan collected data on all violent and nonviolent campaigns from 1900 to 2006 that resulted in the overthrow of a government or in territorial liberation. They created a data set of 323 mass actions. Chenoweth analyzed nearly 160 variables related to success criteria, participant categories, state capacity, and more. The results turned her earlier paradigm on its head — in the aggregate, nonviolent civil resistance was far more effective in producing change.

posted by OnceUponATime at 12:13 PM on August 1 [10 favorites]

All of these required long term campaigns of violent resistance to bring the oppressors to the table. Nelson Mandela was jailed as a terrorist before he was taken seriously as the leader of a movement.

It was not the violence that brought the Apartheid regime to the table. Quite the opposite. Peace was made possible by international pressure, combined with the ANC's decision to swear off violence, and to stick with that despite provocation.

Regarding today's Republican party, I agree with those who say you can't really work with them until they at least cop to what is happening. That's table stakes.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:16 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]

I'm not talking about who's to blame. I'm talking about what works.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:18 PM on August 1

I am shocked that anyone thinks the violent resistance in this case is what "brought the oppressors to the table," rather than keeping them working as hard as they could at oppressing for as long as possible.

I'm not shocked that people believe the South African apartheid government or the Israelis would give full rights to the people they were oppressing if they were just virtuous enough victims, but I do think it is entirely wrong.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:22 PM on August 1 [14 favorites]

Like, what terrorist acts did Black Americans commit that it took over a century to "come to the table"?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:22 PM on August 1 [6 favorites]

The American Civil war was a case where the rebels trying to overthrow the government were the bad guys. They resorted to violence first and they lost, thankfully.

It was not slave rebellion where justified violence won the day and made a better world. Slaves did try to rebel in the years prior to that, but they lost, because the slave owning class was better at violence, and had more resources.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:26 PM on August 1 [1 favorite]

We haven’t seen the last of Walz, I’m certain of that.

He might not be selected as VP or another Cabinet post, but he’s already impressed the hell out of millions.
posted by darkstar at 12:32 PM on August 1 [6 favorites]

I am sorry, I know this is off topic for the Kamala Harris thread, but telling people to make nice with fascists who are planning on killing a lot of innocent people, and to treat them as other rational members of the political process instead of enemies to be defeated by any means necessary is incredibly unwise. There is no amount of playing nice, or being photogenic while you are slaughtered that will dissuade fascists from killing you. Virtuous suffering isn't rewarded.Don't tell people to normalize the presence of those who would kill them.

It was not slave rebellion where justified violence won the day and made a better world.

No, that was Haiti.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:33 PM on August 1 [13 favorites]

The Civil War and Reconstruction are meant to be context here, not examples. And the history of Reconstruction is itself a tale of how violent oppression required no superficial trust issues or terrorism from the oppressed for violent oppression to continue legally for over a century and largely unchallenged even today.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:34 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]

And the Civil Rights movement is an example of how non-violent resistance helped partially fix the things that the Civil War left still broken. (Not that the work is over.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:38 PM on August 1 [1 favorite]

I think picking Shapiro would be a mistake. Not only is their scandal hanging over him and his generally fashy takes on protestors and drug dealers. He also doesn't seem like he is going to be a huge asset in swinging PA.

But a lot of smarter people than me are working for Harris, so we'll see.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:38 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]

I really don't know how else to emphasize the whole "it took over a century for that to happen" any more than I have.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:42 PM on August 1 [1 favorite]

A few comments deleted. As indicated in the Guidelines Please allow others to express themselves and be considerate and respectful. This includes misrepresenting another member's words and responding with irony in a serious conversation.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:43 PM on August 1

Just so we know what kind of timeframes we're talking about here, the Nazis killed half or more of the world's Jews in six years.

No one can wait over a hundred years for the right kind of protesting.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:46 PM on August 1 [8 favorites]

And the Civil Rights movement is an example of how non-violent resistance helped partially fix the things that the Civil War left still broken. (Not that the work is over.)

The civil rights movement was not nonviolent. The threat of violent resistance was a large part of the reason for the victories King was able to achieve. White America chose the peaceful option, but I doubt they would have done so if armed black resistance wasn't on the table.

The idea that the civil rights movement was a victory of virtue over violence is a comforting narrative (especially to white people), but it doesn't so justice to the realities involve in winning rights for Black Americans.

Likewise, you don't get someone like Rabin trying to make peace if peace is already happening. You have to make the costs such that your opponent sees value in ending the conflict.

And none of this applies when you are the target of extermination rather than social or economic oppression. These people want to destroy us. This isn't White America being forced to address Black oppression. This is the Nazis making lists of Jewish people to kill.

Normalizing these freaks, or treating their agenda as a political difference is a fundamental failure in our responsibility to the vulnerable. Offer them forgiveness and a way back when they surrender. Till then, offer them only resistance.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:47 PM on August 1 [8 favorites]

Time to close this tab.
posted by terrapin at 12:51 PM on August 1 [12 favorites]

I'm not talking about who's to blame. I'm talking about what works.

Then who killed the world?
posted by stet at 12:52 PM on August 1

Civility allowed Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland to set aside the fact that they thought of each other as monsters and murderers, and instead sit down and create democratic frameworks for living together

You don’t seem very clear on the situation in Northern Ireland, past or present.
posted by knobknosher at 1:01 PM on August 1 [11 favorites]

It seems like a lot of folks would really like a forum to discuss and debate the important history of political violence as it relates to the efficacy of resistance movements.

(I understand Mr. DeBakey is free, but he’s feeling a little bit conciliatory today. Perhaps try Mr. Barnard in room 12?)
posted by darkstar at 1:02 PM on August 1 [10 favorites]

I don't want to debate it. I just don't want dangerous falsehoods going unchallenged. If people don't advocate for violence, I won't advocate for peace.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:16 PM on August 1

I don't want to debate it. I just don't want dangerous falsehoods going unchallenged.

Exactly my motivation. Treating fascism as an issue people of good conscience can disagree over will cost people their lives.
posted by pattern juggler at 1:18 PM on August 1 [6 favorites]

This is a Harris thread, right? It said "HARRIS" on the door. Have you guys taken over the lease or something?
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:22 PM on August 1 [51 favorites]

I wish we had details on the Walz and Kelly and Buttigieg vettings but this is great reporting with the specifics of others.

NBC News: Harris campaign's vetting team has met with 6 potential VP picks as the selection process nears its end.

By Yamiche Alcindor, Julie Tsirkin and Rebecca Shabad

WASHINGTON — The vetting team for Vice President Kamala Harris’ campaign has met with six potential running mate contenders as her selection process nears its end, two sources familiar with the campaign said.

The six contenders are Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz, Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro, Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker, Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear, Arizona Sen. Mark Kelly and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.

All of them are around the same age as Harris, 59, or younger, and most have already stumped for the vice president on the campaign trail or in media appearances since President Joe Biden dropped out of the race.

Shapiro met with Harris’ vetting team on Wednesday, according to a source familiar with the meeting. The vice president was not present, the source said.

Shapiro canceled fundraisers in the Hamptons this weekend originally scheduled to raise money for his PAC, his press secretary Manuel Bonder confirmed. "His schedule has changed and he is no longer traveling to the Hamptons this weekend," Bonder said.

Two sources familiar said Kelly met with Harris’ vetting team Tuesday afternoon. Kelly missed at least two votes on the Senate floor on Wednesday between noon and 6 p.m. ET, one source said. His aide said he was “off campus.”

Pennsylvania and Arizona are considered critical battleground states needed to win the Electoral College.

Pritzker sat for two Zoom interviews with Harris’ vetting team, one three-hour session on Monday and a follow-up session on Wednesday that included some questions on policies.

posted by cashman at 1:43 PM on August 1 [7 favorites]

Gah, no edit button - the article is from Aug. 1, 2024, 2:22 PM EDT.
posted by cashman at 1:44 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]

please don't take my Pritzker. Illinois needs him.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:46 PM on August 1 [5 favorites]

gonna be Shapiro it looks like.

He's being brought in to lure the real engine of the US economy - the Soft Business Crime vote - away from the lucrative and dangerous Pleasure Island of Trumpland.

So, unpleasant New Centrist messaging from them (much like the Ken Starmer/Labour position) must be ignored if progressives are to hold rheir noses and vote for them. This is what veering back from the brink looks like. It's messy and involves a lot of pandering to folks on the fence.
posted by CynicalKnight at 1:53 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

And long may the Great Khan of the Illinois Plains reign.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:54 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Harris is up three in Pennsylvania according to current polling, by the way, and tied in Michigan and Wisconsin. So maybe we don't need a tough-on-crime-and-protestors and soft-on-corporations-and-genocide asshole who looks the other way when his Republican friend commits sexual harassment on the national ticket after all, thank you very much.
posted by Gadarene at 1:54 PM on August 1 [10 favorites]

I hope we haven't ruled out a "Floor is Lava" competition for VP.
posted by credulous at 1:55 PM on August 1 [12 favorites]

Gov. Beshear cancels planned stop in western Ky.
posted by mcdoublewide at 1:55 PM on August 1 [8 favorites]

Hey, with all the VP contenders canceling their plans, maybe we’re looking at a Flex Time / job share arrangement for the Veep slot. That’d certainly get the attention of future-oriented voters.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 2:01 PM on August 1 [21 favorites]

Post-Biden polling in PA has:

Trump+1
Harris+3
Trump+1
Trump+4
Harris+4
Harris+1
Trump+4
Even

That averages to basically tied. That doesn't mean Shapiro should be the pick necessarily but "Pennsylvania is Harris+3 already" isn't a good reason not to pick him.
posted by Justinian at 2:07 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]

That averages to basically tied. That doesn't mean Shapiro should be the pick necessarily but "Pennsylvania is Harris+3 already" isn't a good reason not to pick him.

Oh, I know they'll find a reason. Better things aren't possible, after all.
posted by Gadarene at 2:09 PM on August 1 [6 favorites]

That's the spirit!
posted by kirkaracha at 2:20 PM on August 1 [9 favorites]

Shapiro is not actually overwhelmingly popular in Pennsylvania, also. The biggest reason he won the way he did was that the Republicans ran, and the Democrats propped up, the thoroughly insane Doug Mastriano. I think I saw a 49 percent approval rating among independents and 60something among Democrats for Shapiro? Unless the numbers I saw were completely false, that is not particularly impressive.
posted by Gadarene at 2:20 PM on August 1 [4 favorites]

Harris does not win the election without Pennsylvania.

Harris does not win Pennsylvania without strong Philadelphia-and-adjacent-countries turnout.

Phila-and-adj lean heavily on the I-95 corridor.

Shapiro took credit for leading the effort to repair I-95 in two weeks when it blew up in Philadelphia, turning what could have been a long-term crippling of travel in and out of the region into an actual feel-good thing.

Shapiro ran against a card-carrying Trumpoid Christofascist for Governor, one of the ringleaders of the 2020 steal-the-state-from-Biden efforts, and stomped him into the ground.

I understand the qualms many have about him. But I also see why Harris's team finds him attractive.
posted by delfin at 2:37 PM on August 1 [12 favorites]

Well. Whoever the pick. VPs don’t set policy. They’ll kiss babies and break ground and break ties in congress. Maybe they go with Shapiro to lock PA, and give Walz a policy setting appointment. I dunno. The policy is Harris, the vibe is Harris. Let’s not fret.
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:50 PM on August 1 [10 favorites]

Harris does not win Pennsylvania without strong Philadelphia-and-adjacent-countries turnout.

Phila-and-adj lean heavily on the I-95 corridor.

Shapiro is also somewhat infamous for repeatedly meddling in Philadelphia's local politics, and especially his ongoing vendetta against DA Larry Krasner, apparently for being too progressive and reform-minded. He's even gone so far as to work with the state GOP on multiple occasions to fuck over Krasner.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:54 PM on August 1 [11 favorites]

That's what I've been saying. Sure, on policy and such I prefer Walz. But it's the VP. They don't actually do anything.
posted by Justinian at 2:55 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]

The policy is Harris, the vibe is Harris. Let’s not fret.

Unfortunately, there is no guarantee the vibe stays Harris, and I think Shapiro may actually serve as something of a weak spot with voters otherwise willing to see Harris as a hard break with Biden's policy.
posted by pattern juggler at 2:57 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]

Something I remind myself is no Democratical VP has become President in my entire life. There was a former veep who kinda lucked into it, but no VP has ever become President.
posted by kensington314 at 3:00 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Have people cooled on Buttigieg? He's hardly mentioned in this thread. That mainstream story that named three front-runners and left out Buttigieg seems to have ended mention of him.
posted by CCBC at 3:01 PM on August 1

Really wish Edit was working
posted by kensington314 at 3:02 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Have people cooled on Buttigieg? He's hardly mentioned in this thread. That mainstream story that named three front-runners and left out Buttigieg seems to have ended mention of him.

His experience is not comparable.
posted by Gadarene at 3:05 PM on August 1

Buttigieg is a McKinsey ghoul. No better than fucking Shapiro.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:07 PM on August 1 [7 favorites]

He's mostly probably not mentioned here because he's disproportionately unpopular here.

But the reporting also puts him outside of the top three, I'd guess because of a combo of inexperience, that he's gay, and that people in swingy Midwest districts have a bad opinion of his handling of the Ohio train derailment.
posted by kensington314 at 3:10 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Something I remind myself is no Democratical VP has become President in my entire life.

I’ve been thinking about that a lot, too. Harris will be very much an exceptional case if she wins, as the result of Biden dropping out so late that most of her party was hugely relieved to have her waiting in the wings. (She has definitely earned her place on the ticket, such that she was primed to step into the race, and is definitely qualified to be President.)

VPs are mainly selected to shore up perceived weaknesses of the Presidential nominee — in winning a state, appealing to a demographic, in providing certain policy experience, etc. — rather than the main consideration being “can they also win the presidency in 8 years”.

It’s not Harris’ responsibility to win her elections as well as those that come after her two terms. So if Shapiro is her VP, and he’s able to help with PA and maybe MI, then he can serve dutifully in the VP role fir 8 years and then get stomped by Walz or whomever in Dem primaries in 2032.
posted by darkstar at 3:21 PM on August 1 [5 favorites]

The issue I have with Shapiro is how critical young voter turnout is going to be. I just cannot imagine going up to college students who have been protesting the treatment of Palestinians and saying, "Hey, remember how there were also a few Dems who wanted to lock you up for protesting? Now you can vote for one of them!" 😎
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:21 PM on August 1 [13 favorites]

So if Shapiro is her VP, and he’s able to help with PA and maybe MI

I guess I think it's surpassingly unlikely that Shapiro could do more good than harm in Michigan, but maybe stranger things have happened.
posted by Gadarene at 3:22 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Why the Kamala Harris Candidacy Changed Everything [Slate]

The best lesson we might take, perhaps, in this wild two-week loopy Kamala binge is not just that our brains can rocket from despair to hope but also that hope brings about a surge in imagination and a generosity of vision that unfailingly reminds us of everyone around us, what they need, and why they matter. That is what another authoritarianism scholar, Jason Stanley, calls civic compassion—the collaboration and openness and trust that are eradicated when we let ourselves give up.

We may still suffer from a sugar crash in the weeks ahead. The bloom may slide off the rose, and in a campaign with the highest stakes of our lifetime, we may be tempted to start pointing fingers and shouting again when we don’t like the VP pick, or if court-reform efforts seem inadequate, or if the memes all start to rasp and sputter. The cynics are already counting on it, and the cat-haters will almost certainly capitalize on it. But what happens in these klieg lights is just half the story. What you’re seeing flare up in your friends and neighbors is enduring. As Solnit, poet laureate of hope, writes, “The grounds for hope are in the shadows, in the people who are inventing the world while no one looks, who themselves don’t know yet whether they will have any effect.”

posted by mazola at 3:23 PM on August 1 [28 favorites]

I don't think anyone here is fretting about the looming threat of a possible Josh Shapiro presidential run in 2032. The concern is that Kamala picking him as her running mate will completely tank the Democrats' chances in 2024.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:29 PM on August 1 [9 favorites]

What a fantastic pull-quote, mazola. Thank you!
posted by darkstar at 3:30 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]

John Cluverius, on Bluesky:

I’m really not trying to be a Vibes Political Scientist but would you rather the next month of news be “JD Vance Says Women Are ‘Ripe Vessels’ On Groyp Yourself a Gun Podcast” or “In Emails, Shapiro Advised Grab-Ass Staffer to ‘Get Story Straight’”
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:30 PM on August 1 [16 favorites]

Trump: “they’re the weird ones!”

Please excuse the Twitter link.

I guess it’s absolutely working.
posted by Artw at 3:31 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

The issue, I think, is that committed voters such as myself still have the same pens we used to write-in 'uncommitted' during the primaries.
posted by stet at 3:34 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

But it's the VP. They don't actually do anything.

Sigh. They don't necessarily have to do anything besides be a tie-breaker vote in the Senate and go to funerals of rulers and dignitaries of smaller countries, but modern post WW 2 VP's can and have played significant roles in their administrations. Spiro Agnew for Nixon, Bush 1 for Reagan, Dick Cheney for Bush 2, Biden for Obama, they've all done a lot to create policies and find support for those policies amongst other politicians and interest groups. Hell, my strong suspicion is that everyone (including liberals & leftists) going, "well, we don't really know much about Kamala, she's been invisible" is a white male. Because she has absolutely been out during the whole Biden administration talking to women and POC and POC women, groups and leaders, seeing what they were hoping for from legislation like Build Back Better or the Inflation Reduction Act. She's been "invisible" because she hasn't been pandering to white men and their concerns. But she hasn't been sitting around with her thumb up her ass.

There's more to picking a VP than winning elections.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:34 PM on August 1 [22 favorites]

To put numbers to it:
Uncommitted drew about 10% of the primary vote in Maryland.
43,000 votes in New Jersey
100,000 in Michigan

These were voters who were not only against genocide, but politically aware enough to go to the polls just to participate in this campaign. There are surely more who sat at home rather than vote for Biden, especially in areas with large Muslim populations like Michigan. Harris is exciting because she can start from a blank slate. She can say that she had a hand in the good stuff, and was secretly against the bad stuff. Instead, it seems likely that she is going to double down on the border and genocide. I guess they ran polls that showed that the record breaking amounts of money that AIPAC is pouring in will bring in more votes than they lose. They did successfully oust Bowman, despite his committed volunteer base. I'm special though, partially because the same people who are for Shapiro as a VP are the ones who thought Biden would never drop out.
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:42 PM on August 1 [7 favorites]

*skeptical, not special!! I need my edit window!!
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:43 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Something I remind myself is no Democratical VP has become President in my entire life.

Biden?
True he wasn't a direct successor the way Bush Sr. followed Reagan, but he was Obama's veep.
posted by cheshyre at 3:47 PM on August 1 [10 favorites]

FWIW, the UAW, who just endorsed Harris, said their top pick for VP is Beshear followed closely by Walz.
posted by azpenguin at 3:47 PM on August 1 [25 favorites]

Thank Jorts for putting the speculation in perspective:

Imagine cancelling your appointments because you are under the weather and everyone starts screaming that it’s proof you’re going to be vice president. Haha no I just have diarrhea

posted by cheshyre at 3:50 PM on August 1 [31 favorites]

More chillingly, it’s possible they have COVID.
posted by brook horse at 3:56 PM on August 1 [2 favorites]

Man, it would've been really nice if the UAW had held its endorsement until after she had picked (not-Shapiro).
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:56 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

These were voters who were not only against genocide, but politically aware enough to go to the polls just to participate in this campaign.

As someone who did vote uncommitted in the Maryland Democratic primary for the presidential slot, this is not necessarily true of Maryland voters. We had a Senate race, congressional races and local races all on that same primary ballot, so many people who voted "uncommitted" for president were not going to the polls expressly to vote against Biden.

No one gives a shit about Maryland voters for president, of course; if Maryland goes for Trump, we skipped ahead to 2028 and are having fake elections now.

But trying to translate "uncommitted" votes in the primary to how people will vote in November is going to be tricky to forecast.
posted by the primroses were over at 4:01 PM on August 1 [6 favorites]

partially because the same people who are for Shapiro as a VP are the ones who thought Biden would never drop out.

Wait really? So, I am a person who thought Biden would never drop out. And I thought if he did, it would be a mess, because rich donors would insist on a centrist disaster candidate like, say, Shapiro. (And even if they didn’t succeed, they’d cause a damaging mess in the meantime).

Instead I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by how fast the D’s coalesced around Harris, and even more so by the enthusiasm and the nascent poll changes. (Still, I trust the polls so little, for all the same reasons; but I do think comparing polls of the same methodology can still give useful information about the direction of the race.)

So— as someone who did not think it particularly want Biden to leave, because of fears that are so far unfounded, I would in fact be pretty saddened if Shapiro is the choice.
posted by nat at 4:12 PM on August 1 [9 favorites]

Biden?
True he wasn't a direct successor the way Bush Sr. followed Reagan, but he was Obama's veep.

He's the former one I mentioned. No Dem VP has succeeded the Dem they served in my life. Harris's situation is unique and I'm optimistic she'll win, and I'm also aware a hypothetical veep Shapiro won't likely be president in eight years.

But I understand the view of those saying he's a danger to the ticket. I voted "ceasefire" since my state doesn't have "uncommitted," so his presence on the ticket would make me nervous too. Especially looking at tofu crouton's numbers and knowing that this race will be won by tens of thousands of votes in a couple key states.
posted by kensington314 at 4:13 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Man, it would've been really nice if the UAW had held its endorsement until after she had picked (not-Shapiro).

I can pretty much guarantee you that the UAW doesn't give a flying fuck who the vice presidential candidate is, except in terms of how it plays into campaign strategy. They are purely focused on winning this election for Harris, because a second Trump presidency would be catastrophic for working Americans and would represent an existential threat to the American labor movement. They endorsed when they did because they thought it would help the Harris campaign.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:15 PM on August 1 [15 favorites]

There are also some names (the -burg and -stein names, for instance) that are pretty commonly Jewish in English-speaking countries but are generic German names in German-speaking countries

I'm fairly certain that's not actually true. In many places, particularly in the Anglophone and Germanophone spheres, the typical names of the dominant ethnic groups going back to the Middle Ages are either professions (e.g. Schmidt, Schneider, Fischer, Koch), or less commonly place-names (e.g. Hamburger, Frank, Berliner*). Until quite recently historically, many Ashkenazi Jews either didn't use family names at all (preferring patronymics and matronymics), or used non-German family names, but as the German states and Austria consolidated, they started to demand standardized names from their subjects for census and taxation purposes. The Jews being registered by the state didn't have the kind of professional or local affiliations that would give them a traditional last name, so the official assignment of names was haphazard and arbitrary, with "color + natural feature" as a popular choice, hence names like Blaustein (blue stone), Silberberg (silver mountain), Grünbaum (green tree), and the like.

*Irving Berlin, however, was both Jewish and not-German, but he was born in Russia, with the name Israel Bellin, and his name is an Americanization of that. Beilin itself is a family name adopted from a matronym from the Yiddish female given name Beila.
posted by jackbishop at 4:26 PM on August 1 [16 favorites]

Interesting! I've come across non-Jewish Rosenbergs and Grünbergs, and I probably extrapolated from that.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:15 PM on August 1 [1 favorite]

It'd be nice to have threads with a higher signal-to-noise ratio.

i agree. lets begin. given kamalas catlady status, its going to be important that the vp have a strong stance on declawing. in this series of comments i shall outline.... (1/84)
posted by lalochezia at 5:44 PM on August 1 [13 favorites]

Kamala Harris’ Philly rally will be held at Temple’s Liacouras Center

Vice President Kamala Harris’ first rally with her yet-to-be-named running mate will be at Temple University’s 10,000-seat basketball arena on Tuesday, according to a source with knowledge of the planning.

...

Former U.S. Rep. Bob Brady, chair of the Pennsylvania Democratic Party, said Thursday that interest in Tuesday’s rally with Harris is high. The state Democratic Party, which works in conjunction with the Harris campaign in the state, has registered thousands of people already.
Since launching her presidential campaign, Harris has drawn larger crowds than Biden had. About 10,000 people turned out for a rally this week in Atlanta.
“We got people calling every 10 minutes asking, ‘Can I go?’” Brady said.

...

The rally in Philadelphia, which is expected to happen in the evening, will be the first in a seven-stop tour Harris makes across swing states with her running mate next week.

Anybody got Bob's number? I'm trying to go too, sheesh.
posted by cashman at 5:49 PM on August 1 [1 favorite]

(Also, for anybody wondering, it's a 45-minute walk from there to the Rocky Steps. So like, a 25 minute jog in sweats and a cap)
posted by cashman at 5:56 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

Perhaps doing arbitrary Kamala Harris threads every week for the rest of the campaign isn't so great as it decends into hey let's talk about Trump or imaginary arguments about VP candidates or any number of other topics. It'd be nice to have threads with a higher signal-to-noise ratio.

Kamala Harris' campaign for the presidency exists in the context of the election, which includes her opponent, her running mate and any number of other topics, it didn't just fall out of some sort of tree or something.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:52 PM on August 1 [21 favorites]

NYT article from last hour (Aug. 1, 2024, 9:46 p.m. ET) has a lot of info. "Harris Begins Final Phase of Accelerated V.P. Search"

The law firm hired by the Harris campaign to investigate potential vice-presidential candidates has completed its work, leaving the final decision — the most important yet of the still-new campaign — squarely in Vice President Kamala Harris’s hands.

Covington & Burling, the Washington law firm tasked with the vetting, completed the job on Thursday afternoon and turned over its findings to Ms. Harris, according to two people briefed on the process.

Ms. Harris has blocked off several hours on her calendar this weekend to meet with the men being considered to join the ticket, according to two people who had viewed her schedule and who, like others interviewed, spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the private process.

Those officials participated in an extensive and intrusive process that included hourslong videoconference interviews with former Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., who once oversaw Barack Obama’s vice-presidential vetting, and Dana Remus, a former White House counsel for President Biden and an outside legal counsel for the Harris campaign.

Later there's a quote from Senator Laphonza Butler about how it'll come down to who she can have tough conversations with, someone where you can have a good relationship and a good vibe, rather than just tolerating them. Then a few paragraphs later:

Mr. Shapiro, who like Ms. Harris is a former state attorney general, brings a proven record of building broad coalitions across perhaps the most critical swing state, where 61 percent of voters viewed him favorably in a recent Fox News poll.

Mr. Shapiro and Ms. Harris have known each other for years: In 2006, Ms. Harris, then the San Francisco district attorney, and Mr. Shapiro, then a state representative, were tapped for a prestigious program for rising stars in American politics. They have remained in touch.

I guess it's good then that there's still a hurdle to cross, as "Ms. Harris, who began the process last week with just 12 contenders, has not yet met in person with any of her top choices."

We're about to hit a 5-day period that may be the most consequential days until the week before the election. Buckle up. I hope this all works out somehow.
posted by cashman at 7:18 PM on August 1 [8 favorites]

I used to have a coworker with the last name Gomez that was Scotts-Irish. The stories behind how stuff like that comes to be is something I love about America.
posted by VTX at 7:34 PM on August 1 [6 favorites]

Curious what their calculus is on Shapiro - I’m sure they think he can bring PA home, but I wonder if they think he puts Ohio in play (the recent spotlight hasn’t been kind to Vance.) If Harris won OH - which I believe is a real long shot - then that’s ballgame. Right now my picks are in the following order: Beshear, Walz, Kelly, Shapiro. I’m more than fine with Walz but Beshear is a tactical thing for me. But it’s not my call to make, and we’ll find out soon enough.
posted by azpenguin at 7:45 PM on August 1 [7 favorites]

From "NYT article from last hour (Aug. 1, 2024, 9:46 p.m. ET) has a lot of info. "Harris Begins Final Phase of Accelerated V.P. Search" above:

As closely held as her deliberations have been, some broad choices have clearly been made. Ms. Harris is seriously considering only white men, reflecting concerns in some quarters of the party that the country will not elect two women or two people of color.

Take that wokerati! And they call her the DEI candidate. Looks like white guys still have what it takes, lol
posted by dis_integration at 8:25 PM on August 1 [3 favorites]

She’s picking them for their race and gender. Sounds like a DEI hire to me.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:27 PM on August 1 [39 favorites]

A little solidarity anthem for my sisters in nulliparous ailurophilia this campaign season.
posted by armeowda at 10:23 PM on August 1 [11 favorites]

if *you* were picking Shapiro for VP, would you make that announcement on a college campus?
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:41 PM on August 1 [9 favorites]

Gov. Walz shares his family’s IVF journey as Democrats look to guarantee access to treatments (Star Tribune, March 13, 2024) "It’s not by chance that we named our daughter Hope.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:42 PM on August 1 [23 favorites]

He's just such a good fit for the ticket.
posted by Gadarene at 10:52 PM on August 1 [14 favorites]

It's not just him. The First Lady of Minnesota, Gwen Walz, is an English teacher; she's taught in prisons, and advocates for criminal justice reform. Gwen Walz lends support to felon voting rights push (MPR, Feb. 7, 2019) Walz spoke Thursday at a Minnesota Second Chance Coalition rally at the state Capitol...

The rally was Mrs. Walz's first public event as First Lady.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:16 PM on August 1 [26 favorites]

‘Time to Be Bold’: Advice for Democrats from a Quietly Powerful Governor (Politico, Dec. 3, 2023) As the new chair of the Democratic Governors Association, Gov. Tim Walz has some tips for the party.
Late last year, Walz talks about strategy, messaging, and some of his fellow governors.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:44 PM on August 1 [5 favorites]

‘Deadheads for Kamala’ to mark Jerry Garcia’s birthday with Harris fundraiser
posted by taquito sunrise at 3:26 AM on August 2 [11 favorites]

Seeing the states on electoral-vote.com flip to blue (or tied) after they’ve been red for so long is a like coming up for air after being underwater for too long.

Compare the map from June 26 to the map on August 1.

As they wrote yesterday:

We have enough polls now to warrant putting Kamala Harris' name on the electoral-vote score. Still, don't take this too seriously for at least a week, until we have multiple polls for all the swing states. Nevertheless, this is already Harris' world. The number of GOP pickups is down to two today (GA and PA). On June 26, it was as high as seven.

They also note how Harris is squeezing RFK, Jr. out. (Though I’m still receiving texts from the RFK, Jr. campaign that call him a “pro-choice Democrat” in what is clearly an attempt to continue his grift and spoil the Harris vote here in AZ.)
posted by darkstar at 3:53 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Living in pennsyltucky(at least culturally), I think Walz would have better chance of bringing out rural dem votes than Shapiro and potentially reshape the party. Most of Shapiro success is that the moderate wing of the Republican Party of PA can’t work with the MAGA candidates and are willing to cut deals with centerist dems. I don’t think he would be able to cut in D.C. without serious policy compromises on anything he worked on.
posted by roguewraith at 3:55 AM on August 2 [14 favorites]

Anyone have details on the Deadheads event? The article says it’s happening but not where or how.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:08 AM on August 2

The article says that Deadheads for Kamala is a virtual event.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:21 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]

Harris raised a massive $310 million in July, as she looks to reset November’s race against Trump

WASHINGTON (AP) — Vice President Kamala Harris ' campaign announced Friday that it raised $310 million last month, an eyepopping sum showing that donors who once seemed spooked about the prospects for November’s election with President Joe Biden are now offering mountains of cash to boost his former No. 2.

The haul by Harris, the Democratic National Committee and affiliated entities far outpaced Republican former President Donald Trump, whose campaign and assorted committees said they took in $138.7 million for July.

The vice president’s campaign also says it entered August with $377 million in cash on hand, which it described as the most for any presidential candidate at this point in the cycle. It was also well above the $327 million Trump’s team announced having to start the month.

“The tremendous outpouring of support we’ve seen in just a short time makes clear the Harris coalition is mobilized, growing, and ready to put in the work to defeat Trump this November,” Harris campaign manager Julie Chavez Rodriguez said in a statement. “Our money is going to the work that wins close elections.”

posted by cashman at 6:36 AM on August 2 [12 favorites]

Right wing darling murderer Kyle Rittenhouse announced he is writing in Ron (did he mean Rand?) Paul. Apparently Trump isn’t doing enough for gun rights for him. And, yes, the response has been “might as well vote for Kamala!”
posted by girlmightlive at 7:04 AM on August 2 [5 favorites]

Rittenhouse’s grifter family is likely mad at him for not sending enough trickle down grift their way.
posted by Artw at 7:13 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]

Just got back from my run and listening to the latest Pod Save America. Their 2 cents on the VP pick (I don't necessarily agree):

* Don't read anything into the Shapiro "signs" like the canceled events. They doubt Harris has made a decision yet. From their experience with prior VP picks like Obama's Biden/Kaine/Bayh), literally no one knows until the last minute. Obama had 3 people write 3 speeches and told all 3 candidates to clear their schedules for a big announcement.
* Dan Pfeiffer thinks all the choices are great (Kelly, Walz, Shapiro, Buttigieg, Bashear). I personally lean Walz, but this did make me think about how we all tend to pick a winner and then build a mental case as to why the others are bad so we can be "right". We should probably feel glad that we are in this spot in the first place - where Harris is the nominee and has a better shot than Biden did, and we have a deep bench of good choices. They all have flaws and strengths. Some flaws are dealbreakers for me but not for others and vice versa.

I think the bigger factor in the overall Presidential race is probably how things go in the world for the next 3 months. Interest rate cut would help Biden. The prisoner swap helps. The Gaza/ME situation is a giant fucking mess that may spread before November, and who knows what that does.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:20 AM on August 2 [18 favorites]

“might as well vote for Kamala!”

They should test that as a secondary slogan for MAGA-world.
posted by mazola at 7:21 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

* Don't read anything into the Shapiro "signs" like the canceled events. They doubt Harris has made a decision yet. From their experience with prior VP picks like Obama's Biden/Kaine/Bayh), literally no one knows until the last minute. Obama had 3 people write 3 speeches and told all 3 candidates to clear their schedules for a big announcement.

There was a story last night saying Harris not only hadn't made a decision yet but hadn't even done face-to-face meetings with the finalists.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:58 AM on August 2 [9 favorites]

Anyone have details on the Deadheads event?

https://events.democrats.org/event/655606/
posted by terrapin at 8:01 AM on August 2 [1 favorite]

It'll be Walz or Kelly, is my guess.
posted by mediareport at 8:18 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

METAFILTER: We should probably feel glad that we are in this spot in the first place - where Harris is the nominee and has a better shot than Biden did, and
posted by philip-random at 8:21 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

Shapiro is going to alienate people who don’t like Biden’s Israel policy and also don’t like violent suppression of nonviolent dissent. Literally everyone else will upset….no major groups of supporters in any way?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:25 AM on August 2 [11 favorites]

Kelly would piss off some union voters.
posted by mediareport at 8:26 AM on August 2 [5 favorites]

Kamala Harris Now Leads Donald Trump in Seven National Polls [Newsweek]

The new polls show the presumptive Democratic nominee is leading the former president by between 1 and 4 points.

The vice president has her largest lead in a poll conducted by Civiqs between July 27 and July 30. It shows that among 1,123 registered voters, Harris leads Trump 49 percent to 45 percent. Her lead is outside the poll's margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

posted by mazola at 8:31 AM on August 2 [12 favorites]

Shapiro is going to alienate people who don’t like Biden’s Israel policy and also don’t like violent suppression of nonviolent dissent. Literally everyone else will upset….no major groups of supporters in any way?

That’s sufficiently a problem that it’s covering up his equally invalidating problem of having backed up multiple sex creeps.
posted by Artw at 8:33 AM on August 2 [17 favorites]

Buttigieg will upset some people who don't like McKinsey, or demolishing 1000 houses, or East Palestine (the one in Ohio). He might also be the best speaker of the bunch.

Pritzker will upset some people who don't like billionaires. He could use some of those billions to campaign.

Tim Walz once belonged to the NRA. He might be the most progressive name on the list.

Beshear's a D governor in a red state, so he's probably done something that leftists won't like.

Nobody's perfect, and we shouldn't let our hope for perfection get in the way of making the world better.
posted by box at 8:35 AM on August 2 [30 favorites]

From 2007-2019, Tim Walz represented Minnesota's 1st congressional district. Rep. Walz's work on the STOCK (Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge) Act:

... Congressman Tim Walz introduced the bill with Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY). It had languished in Congress for six years until a 60 Minutes report on congressional insider trading aired last fall that raised questions about stock transactions made by high-ranking members of Congress.

In a speech shortly before the bill passed, Walz said it was a "no-brainer" for Congress.

"We're not here to pat ourselves on the back," said Walz. "This might be the only place where doing the right thing gets you kudos, it's expected of everyone else."

The Senate has passed a similar bill with some important differences that must be worked out between the two chambers before President Obama can sign it into law. In particular, a provision championed by Slaughter would have required firms which collect information about pending congressional moves and sell it to Wall Street traders to register as lobbyists are required to. Republican Majority Leader Eric Cantor opposed that measure, stripping it from the House bill and replacing it with a study on the so-called political intelligence firms.

"I'm disappointed the political intelligence piece isn't in here," said Walz, who added, "We can't wait for the perfect to move something forward so I think this is a good bipartisan compromise." (MPR, Feb. 9, 2012)

Both Obama and Walz said the STOCK Act was only one stop toward strengthening ethics laws on Capitol Hill. (Minnesota Post, April 4, 2012)
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:37 AM on August 2 [13 favorites]

House Democrats home in on Tim Walz for Harris ticket (Roll Call, 5 hours ago)
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:37 AM on August 2 [13 favorites]

Shapiro is going to alienate people who don’t like Biden’s Israel policy and also don’t like violent suppression of nonviolent dissent. Literally everyone else will upset….no major groups of supporters in any way?

Major groups of supporters: centrists, megadonors, and the Beltway consultant/pundit class.
posted by Gadarene at 8:37 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]

No matter who you are, you are almost certain to overestimate the electoral importance of the slice of the electorate that you belong to, which is around 10-15%. You are also going to struggle with understanding other voters and will probably view them as low-information, wishy-washy, or manipulated.
posted by argybarg at 8:42 AM on August 2 [11 favorites]

I know nothing about Beshear but my impression is that leftists like him better than the rest of the bunch .
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:43 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

How an Elon Musk PAC is using voter data to help Trump beat Harris in 2024 election [MSNBC]

But for users who enter a zip code that indicates they live in a battleground state, like Pennsylvania or Georgia, the process is very different.

Rather than be directed to their state’s voter registration page, they instead are directed to a highly detailed personal information form, prompted to enter their address, cell phone number, and age.

If they agree to submit all that, the system still does not steer them to a voter registration page. Instead, it shows them a “thank you” page.

posted by mazola at 8:44 AM on August 2 [14 favorites]

I know nothing about Beshear but my impression is that leftists like him better than the rest of the bunch

Not as media ready as Walz is my take, but maybe we can fix him
posted by windbox at 8:46 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

How an Elon Musk PAC is using voter data to help Trump beat Harris in 2024 election

Dude is going hard to the paint for a third of the country. Who probably don't really like him anyway.
posted by ishmael at 8:47 AM on August 2 [1 favorite]

Centrists mega donors would absolutely sooner lose than not have their opinion treated as most important. That’s their power.
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Centrists mega donors would absolutely sooner lose than not have their opinion treated as most important. That’s their *pathology*.

Minor correction.
posted by ishmael at 8:49 AM on August 2 [6 favorites]

Centrists mega donors would absolutely sooner lose than not have their opinion treated as most important.

....Isn't that true of any kind of mega-donor though?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:50 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

That Musk story is amazing. He's gathering all this in-depth data on swing-state residents with an ad targeting Trump supporters (or at least sympathizers)....and then tricking them into thinking they've registered to vote. Meaning anybody who actually tries to use that data to canvas them will also need to convince each person that their first "registration" didn't take, and guide them through the actual process, in order for any of this to actually benefit the Trump campaign in November. Might as well register the whole setup as an in-kind contribution to Harris.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:52 AM on August 2 [22 favorites]

The ‘Minnesota Miracle’ should serve as a model for Democrats (WaPo, E.J. Dionne Jr. column, June 4, 2023; archive link) “I thought this would be a once-in-a-generation opportunity, and it should be viewed that way,” Walz told [journalist E.J. Dionne Jr.] “And I've always said you don't win elections to bank political capital. You win elections to burn the capital to improve lives.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:53 AM on August 2 [20 favorites]

.Isn't that true of any kind of mega-donor though?
Originally there was comma separating centrist and megadonor, but the hate has merged into one big Other.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:53 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

....Isn't that true of any kind of mega-donor though?

Maybe it’s far right megadonors, maybe it’s right wing megadonors, it’s not left wing megadonors because that shit sadly does not exist.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Will people flock to Minnesota if our good governance becomes nationally known?

People in my circle criticize Walz for calling in the National Guard in 2020 (which ended up being frankly a shitshow, let's not lie) , for not being more aggressive against police brutality, for not taking more action on homelessness and for not pushing various MN bodies to divest from Israel. They say that he just piggybacked on a left-leaning legislature and took the credit.

On the other hand, one of my more politically plugged in nonprofit friends, who is also left wing, thinks Walz is pretty good as governor.

I guess I don't see how all those school lunch initiatives, etc, could have been passed if Walz didn't support them - he has to sign the things, after all.

My worry about the 2020 situation was that in the moment it was a bad situation. The only truly radical thing I could see would be for Walz to pressure Frey to have the cops stand down and then negotiate with the protesters over police reform and charges for Derek Chauvin. I think that would have been a great thing to do, but I also think it would have ended his political career on the spot and might not even have worked - Walz isn't the mayor.

Honestly, during the uprising, I was not scared of the protesters (I live basically by the 3rd precinct but due to my partner's extremely fragile health, I was staying home, I was really afraid that I'd get covid in a crowd or get arrested and get it in jail and come home and my partner would get sick and die, because this is not a great house for real isolating). I had zero worries about the protesters as such. I was extremely worried about fire. Not because I was sad about the 3rd precinct, but it was hot and not especially rainy and fire spreads, and that whole area is nothing but wooden houses. And I was worried that the fire department would get spread too thin or that they/Frey/the cops would somehow slow roll responses in my neighborhood to punish us.

Also - and this gets challenged by people who weren't here, but I heard it from people who were active on the street - there were neo-nazis/fash coming into town. People got shot at on the street, a truck tried to run protesters down on the highway. There seems to have been at least one fire set by the far right.

My point is not "so the answer is the National Guard", but the thing is, I can absolutely see why a governor would feel that something had to be done to put a lid on it, and frankly if it was just Frey running the show my feeling is that he would have let the cops do whatever night after night until they shot someone on purpose with lethal ammunition to "scare" the protesters. Granted that things almost as bad did happen with "less-lethal" ammunition, but I do not think there was a scenario where the protesters would have won on the street. I think in the last instance Frey would have let the cops gun people down.

People did a lot of extremely inspiring things that have mostly been totally misrepresented in national media and I don't think that calling in the National Guard was a good choice, but I also don't think it was a malign and vicious choice that reveals a truth about Walz.
posted by Frowner at 8:55 AM on August 2 [30 favorites]

(One fire other than the autoshop - incendiaries thrown on someone's house roof.)
posted by Frowner at 8:55 AM on August 2 [1 favorite]

Press Butt.on to Check - oooh, burn.
posted by Artw at 8:57 AM on August 2 [1 favorite]

Also - and this gets challenged by people who weren't here, but I heard it from people who were active on the street - there were neo-nazis/fash coming into town. People got shot at on the street, a truck tried to run protesters down on the highway. There seems to have been at least one fire set by the far right.

If you look back at arrests it’s absolutely the case, but that was long after the fact and didn’t sink in with anyone.
posted by Artw at 9:06 AM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Meaning anybody who actually tries to use that data to canvas them will also need to convince each person that their first "registration" didn't take, and guide them through the actual process, in order for any of this to actually benefit the Trump campaign in November.

I dunno, you send people door-to-door stumping for TFG and you either have them close the door on you (and suppress their vote as they are not registered) or vet them as friendly and it's a simple "hey I just checked and you're not on the list, let's try again".

[edit: I guess it depends on who's doing the initial clicking on the link. If it's all their own base then, yup, *facepalm*]
posted by mazola at 9:08 AM on August 2 [1 favorite]

Turns out that Shapiro as a 20-year-old was super-racist about Palestinians, writing that "they do not have the capabilities to establish their own homeland" and"are too battle-minded to be able to establish a peaceful homeland of their own":

link

Yeah, fuck that guy and fuck this ticket if she picks him.

(Will still vote against Trump in November etc)
posted by Gadarene at 9:09 AM on August 2 [11 favorites]

Walz is going to get it from both sides for the George Floyd protestors.

I think people are GREATLY overstating the extent to which this is the case.
posted by Gadarene at 9:16 AM on August 2 [5 favorites]

[edit: I guess it depends on who's doing the initial clicking on the link. If it's all their own base then, yup, *facepalm*]

The ad described in that article seems targeted at people who either support or at least don't dislike Trump so I'm assuming it's mainly targeting people who if they vote would vote R, but yeah, if there are other ads that would appeal to soft Harris supporters it's a different story.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:19 AM on August 2 [1 favorite]

I didn't know much of anything about Walz until the recent Kamala threads here, so thanks everyone who introduced me to him. He sounds like a great guy and is now my first choice for VP. Kelly would be good too (though it sounds like he may be out of the running?), as would Beshear, but Walz has the record and charisma to keep the excitement going, and more importantly, do a good job as VP.

Also hoping it's not Shapiro like many others here. In addition to all the other stuff, not sure that two former AGs would make for a well-balanced ticket.
posted by May Kasahara at 9:26 AM on August 2 [13 favorites]

Washington Post reporting the list of finalists going in for interviews this weekend:

Andy Beshear of Kentucky
J.B. Pritzker of Illinois
Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania
Tim Walz of Minnesota
Pete Buttigieg
Sen. Mark Kelly (Ariz.)
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:28 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

More on Mayor Frey's account of Walz's hesitation, Walz, & the National Guard in May 2020. "State officials said that around 80 percent of those arrested in the Twin Cities on Friday had come from outside Minnesota." Executive Order 20-65 re: National Guard, signed 5/28/2020: [...]

On May 25, 2020, George Floyd died while in custody of the Minneapolis Police Department. Our state watched Mr. Floyd’s humanity be erased. Since Mr. Floyd’s death, thousands of Minnesotans have expressed their frustration in a peaceful and constructive manner. Demonstrators have gathered in Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and surrounding communities to protest Mr. Floyd’s death. Peaceful demonstrations are essential to our democratic system.

Unfortunately, some individuals have engaged in unlawful and dangerous activity, including arson, rioting, looting, and damaging public and private property. These activities threaten the safety of lawful demonstrators, the surrounding communities, and first responders—and Minnesotans have already been injured. Many businesses, including those owned by people of color, have suffered damage as a result of this unlawful activity.

In response to the widespread civil unrest and unlawful activity in Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and surrounding communities, I declared a peacetime emergency and activated the Minnesota National Guard on May 28, 2020. Destructive and dangerous activity has continued. Individuals have looted businesses, destroyed residential buildings, and set a precinct police station on fire. This senseless violence tears at the fabric of our society. Indiscriminate destruction is not the tribute owed to Mr. Floyd, and it does not reflect our values as Minnesotans. We must restore peace and safety immediately.

Because much of the destruction and violence has taken place under the cover of darkness, we must implement a temporary nighttime curfew, in coordination with the Cities of Minneapolis and Saint Paul, to ensure public safety. [...]

posted by Iris Gambol at 9:30 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]

Tim Walz once belonged to the NRA. He might be the most progressive name on the list.

On the NRA front, Walz is a big booster for strong gun control laws, as are a good chunk of the NRA membership.
posted by ishmael at 9:35 AM on August 2 [10 favorites]

Mods delete this hateful comment.

Just so we're clear, it's fine to say that we need to put a moratorium on discussions of antisemitism, as Artw did yesterday, but not to suggest that Jewish politicians are scrutinized more about Israel than other politicians are?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:36 AM on August 2 [2 favorites]

but not to suggest that Jewish politicians are scrutinized more about Israel than other politicians are?

You may want to go back and reread the way you phrased your comment, if this was what you intended to communicate.
posted by Gadarene at 9:37 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Also, forgive me for still being caught up with Josh Shapiro calling Palestinians "battle-minded" and "belligerent Arabs."
posted by Gadarene at 9:40 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]

but not to suggest that Jewish politicians are scrutinized more about Israel than other politicians are?

Are you aware that there are left-wing, anti-Zionist, pro-Palestine Jews right here in this thread with you now?
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:41 AM on August 2 [10 favorites]

He's also fat, and I wish I didn't think that mattered, but I think it does.
ArbitraryAndCapricious

I wished I didn't think being black mattered but I thought it did. Then Obama got elected, and then to my amazement didn't get 2nd amendment remedied in two seconds and in fact is alive and well and much beloved to this day. Now I find myself wishing I didn't think being a woman mattered but thinking it does. I should probably keep my thinking and my wishes about it to myself when it leads me to say stuff like "let's run candidates the psychobigoted fringe won't object to." Naw. Let's run good candidates the end goodbye.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:42 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Would one million percent be overjoyed if a Jewish candidate who is against genocide takes the VP slot, FWIW.
posted by Artw at 9:46 AM on August 2 [6 favorites]

Please knock it off with the strawman declaration, then commenting on that! Who the hell are y'all to declare what the "online Left" is, or does?
posted by Rash at 9:46 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

could ... could we maybe just take a walk outside for a few minutes?
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:47 AM on August 2 [25 favorites]

Are you aware that there are left-wing, anti-Zionist, pro-Palestine Jews right here in this thread with you now?

I am, and I realize that for a lot of people, if you find one member of a group who agrees with you, then all the other members of the group who disagree with you are wrong. But hoo boy, I am uncomfortable with the moratorium on discussions of antisemitism stuff, enough that I am rethinking my participation in political discussions on Metafilter and possibly on Metafilter at all. So I'm out for a while. Maybe I'll be back after I've calmed down.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:48 AM on August 2 [6 favorites]

ArbitraryAndCapricious, you're doing way more work to collapse context than anyone else in this thread. "all leftists have problems with Jewish people" is, if nothing else, utterly erasing every left-wing Jewish person here. So... good job, I guess.
posted by sagc at 9:51 AM on August 2 [17 favorites]

I think people are GREATLY overstating the extent to which this is the case. (Re Walz and George Floyd)

Me too, actually. Not to say outstanding things about my fellow Americans, but I think that most people understand that the situation was unusual, the options were bad and things could have gone extremely wrong in re fire. Like, very, very close to the big fires are hundreds of old wooden houses. There was a fire at a transformer station that put power out in my neighborhood for 24 hours, although it seemed longer, and I can tell you that with covid everywhere and the power out and little access to news and the heat and the fash and the fires, it was frankly a bit stressful. I was never, ever worried that protesters would set houses on fire or intentionally endanger anyone, although I was worried about the fash doing that. I was just worried about fires getting out of control.

I personally blame many years of racist policing in Minneapolis, the corrupt cops, our garbage mayor and selective previous garbage mayors although Frey takes the prize, and some other factors much more than Walz. If we'd had a mayor fit for the times, he would have led, not waffled and sidestepped, and he wouldn't get in the way of the city council every time they try to fix the cops. (Part of the problem here is that when your police force is racist and unreliable, you can't get them to do anything that is necessary and must be done right, because they mutiny, slow-roll, use violence, etc...and if you've built a society where there is no one else available to do state things, you have no one reliable to do them.)

On that note, if you want a reliable deep dive on the uprising and policing in Minneapolis, the Unicorn Riot archives are IMO reliable. I knew a Unicorn Riot person of old, and believe that their judgement and analysis are basically sound and honest.
posted by Frowner at 9:55 AM on August 2 [31 favorites]

Frowner, your posts are consistently among the most cogent, thoughtful, insightful, and empathetic on Metafilter, and I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate them a lot.
posted by Gadarene at 9:58 AM on August 2 [45 favorites]

"all leftists have problems with Jewish people" is, if nothing else, utterly erasing every left-wing Jewish person here.

That would be weird thing to say. I'd be willing to say that "most leftists have a problem with Zionists". Probably we can all get behind "some of the coalition has a problem with those who perpetuate genocide." Leftist Jew here.
posted by longtime_lurker at 9:58 AM on August 2 [6 favorites]

Frowner, your posts are consistently among the most cogent, thoughtful, insightful, and empathetic on Metafilter, and I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate them a lot.

What a kind thing to say! Thank you.
posted by Frowner at 9:59 AM on August 2 [6 favorites]

A day after the protest at Schneider's home, the protesters showed up at the Chicago home of Gov. J.B. Pritzker for another early morning protest.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 9:59 AM on August 2

In a social media post, organizers of the early morning protest in a suburban residential neighborhood demanded that funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, or UNRWA, be reinstated, that Illinois divest from Israel and "an end to the US backed genocide on Gaza."

A day after the protest at Schneider's home, the protesters showed up at the Chicago home of Gov. J.B. Pritzker for another early morning protest.

Demonstrators outside the private family homes of public figures have become increasingly common in recent years. Protesters showed up at the homes of former Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanagh and, earlier this year, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken.

Hmm.

Sure sounds like protestors like protesting bad things.
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Several deletions made. Please refresh if needed. This is already covered in the Guidelines and the Content Policy: Attacking someone's character, cursing at someone and misrepresenting an entire demographic are not okay. All of these are bannable offences and, while we rather rely on member's ability to self-regulate, we might need to start enforcing those rules. Please be extra mindful about these, we still have several months of the presidential race ahead.
posted by loup (staff) at 10:07 AM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Harris for President Campaign Update (started 5 minutes ago on YouTube). Also on Twitter. DNC Chair Jaime Harrison just joined.
posted by cashman at 10:13 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]

A certain amount of the always-online left is going to find a reason to feel attacked by any of the VP picks, because that's the rhetorical and emotional mode: No one honors us, we're always abused by the mean centrists and the moneyed interests, we're the genuine soul of the party and always taken for granted, etc.

This same framing of bitter leftists being unreasonable was also the characterization of many Biden supporters about the push for Biden to step down. Sometimes, the Democratic party establishment is genuinely making bad calls and out of touch with what a lot of their supporters want. Shapiro is a choice that stands to alienate demographics that are a part of the Democratic coalition, including in important swing states. Kelly, and Buttigieg both have downsides, but not to the extent Shapiro does.

I don't think anyone I have seen or heard has suggested that Walz, Beshear, or Pritzker are a problem. So I don't know why you would think they would be perceived as an attack on anyone. Walz seems like the strongest pick to me, but Shapiro is the only one I think has a chance of hurting the campaign. And in the end, what really matters is avoiding another Trump presidency.
posted by pattern juggler at 10:16 AM on August 2 [15 favorites]

Separately, I believe, AP News Updated 12:41 PM EDT, August 2, 2024: Harris campaign plans a call with supporters as Democratic delegates vote on nomination

WASHINGTON (AP) — Vice President Kamala Harris’ campaign said Friday it was preparing to mark a “special historic moment” as Democratic delegates cast online ballots to formally make her their party’s nominee.

The campaign announced that it would hold a call with supporters on Friday afternoon.

posted by cashman at 10:16 AM on August 2 [3 favorites]

MetaFilter: rethinking participation in political discussions on Metafilter and possibly on Metafilter at all
posted by mazola at 10:16 AM on August 2 [5 favorites]

From cashman's link -- Harris has officially surpassed the delegate threshold.
posted by miguelcervantes at 10:17 AM on August 2 [9 favorites]

Reminder that Shapiro is pro-Israel AND used the state security forces to violently crush nonviolent dissent. Setting aside his pro-Israel views, his actual material impact was to support the use of the violent police to crush dissent, and supported restricting free speech and assembly. That’s…pretty bad and I think much worse than an anti-union vote as dem senator in a mostly red state.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:19 AM on August 2 [12 favorites]

Vice President Harris just called in.
posted by cashman at 10:20 AM on August 2

As we are experiencing another spasm of “what does the Left think”, I’m reminded of this political typology from Pew Research.

In this typology, 45% of the electorate might be considered “on the Left”. This includes (moving toward increasingly “Left” on the political spectrum):

10% Outsider Left
16% Democratic Mainstays
13% Establishment Liberals
6% Progressive Left

That last slice, the 6% of the electorate that are the Progressive Left, is not monolithic at all, and includes everyone from Social Democrats like AOC and Bernie Sanders, to actual Socialists, Communists, and Anarchists. These 6% of the electorate, though all typologically on the “left wing” of the political spectrum, still have very deep disagreements with each other, such that only a subset might even be accurately called actual “Leftists”. And even among Leftists, each person has their own priorities and red-line issues.

And yet many of them might still vote strategically for a Democratic ticket. Just something to keep in mind when we talk about what Democratic voters think or want.
posted by darkstar at 10:23 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Turns out that Shapiro as a 20-year-old was

Man, when I was twenty, I was still a Styx fan. I had better instincts about stuff when I was twelve.
posted by philip-random at 10:35 AM on August 2 [13 favorites]

Reminder that Shapiro . . . used the state security forces to violently crush nonviolent dissent.

Can you provide a citation for this? All I can find is from May when he suggested to UPenn admin that they do something. Six students were expelled in that case but there was no violence mentioned in the stories I read.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 10:36 AM on August 2 [1 favorite]

I spent my 20s and 30s as a mainstream Democrat -- perhaps a little bit left of center, but fairly moderate. After George Floyd was murdered in 2020, I started doing racial justice work, which has become a big part of my life four years later. I've watched myself move further and further left; I now consider myself a police abolitionist and espouse a lot of leftist values. (Although frankly, they seem pretty mainstream to me -- everyone should have health care, everyone should be housed, we should make sure people have enough money to live, we should not be helping Israel to commit straight-up genocide, etc. But I digress.)

Harris coming into the race has had an interesting impact on me; it's reactivating my mainstream-Democrat-ness and making me feel annoyed with leftist folks who refuse to vote for her or criticize everything she does. Even though if I really think about it, I'm a lot further left than Harris and there are plenty of things to criticize! I'm trying to observe all these thoughts, rather than leaning into knee-jerk reactions. I find myself following the model of other white people I know through SURJ (Showing Up for Racial Justice), who are doing a fabulous job balancing their excitement around Harris with their commitment to leftist values. Maybe it will get me kicked out of certain circles, but I am allowing myself to be swept up in the excitement about Harris, AND to remember that it's okay that not everyone is excited, and we do need to keep our larger/longer goals in mind (e.g. stopping the Palestinian genocide).

It is just SO wonderful to feel hope and momentum again, and I'm going to let that inspire me as I both support the Harris campaign and work towards liberation for all. Also, I am SO RELIEVED to finally have a candidate -- and a party -- who is telling it like it is and calling out the Republicans on their nonsense.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 10:36 AM on August 2 [30 favorites]

Vice President Kamala Harris ' campaign announced Friday that it raised $310 million last month

Can we just take a moment to crow about this?
Joe Biden dropped out on July 21.
So most of that must've happened in the last ten days.
posted by cheshyre at 11:01 AM on August 2 [14 favorites]

Kamala Harris Now Leads Donald Trump in Seven National Polls

Trump Pushes Back on Debate With Harris, Saying He’s Up in Polls
posted by kirkaracha at 11:03 AM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Instead of crowing, maybe we could have our Australian friend cassowary about it.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:04 AM on August 2 [5 favorites]

Trump Pushes Back on Debate With Harris, Saying He’s Up in Polls

can we please get more accuracy into our headlines?

Known Liar and Convicted Felon Trump Pushes Back on Debate With Harris, Saying He’s Up in Polls

Or if that's too many words:

Known Liar and Convicted Felon Says He’s Up in Polls
posted by philip-random at 11:08 AM on August 2 [7 favorites]

So, it seems that Musk and his brain trust are engaging in a spot of election fraud, with a voter registration site that behaves differently if you're in a battleground state:

The website says it will help the viewer register to vote. But once a user clicks “Register to Vote,” the experience he or she will have can be very different, depending on where they live.

If a user lives in a state that is not considered competitive in the presidential election, like California or Wyoming for example, they’ll be prompted to enter their email addresses and ZIP code and then directed quickly to a voter registration page for their state, or back to the original sign-up section.

But for users who enter a ZIP code that indicates they live in a battleground state, like Pennsylvania or Georgia, the process is very different.

Rather than be directed to their state’s voter registration page, they instead are directed to a highly detailed personal information form, prompted to enter their address, cellphone number and age.

If they agree to submit all that, the system still does not steer them to a voter registration page. Instead, it shows them a “thank you” page.

So that person who wanted help registering to vote? In the end, they got no help at all registering. But they did hand over priceless personal data to a political operation.

posted by NoxAeternum at 11:12 AM on August 2 [31 favorites]

Vote.gov: Register to vote
posted by kirkaracha at 11:22 AM on August 2 [8 favorites]

If they agree to submit all that, the system still does not steer them to a voter registration page. Instead, it shows them a “thank you” page.

So that person who wanted help registering to vote? In the end, they got no help at all registering. But they did hand over priceless personal data to a political operation.

That is absolutely fucking staggering, even for Elon Musk the human trashbag.
posted by Frowner at 11:37 AM on August 2 [10 favorites]

Press Butt.on to Check -

Josh Shapiro’s alarmist response to campus protests should disqualify him from being Harris’ running mate

During the wave of campus protests against the war this spring, Shapiro compared protesters to white supremacists and the KKK, contributing to rhetoric that led to state and vigilante violence against protesters across the country. He applauded the decision to send police to disband a pro-Palestinian encampment at the University of Pennsylvania, even though the school’s own faculty members condemned the “arrests and suppression of non-violent, anti-war protests” after riot gear-clad forces cleared and arrested students.
posted by Artw at 11:45 AM on August 2 [11 favorites]

Wait, Shapiro was in the IDF?
posted by mittens at 11:58 AM on August 2 [10 favorites]

Apologies to any centrists here, I did a quick copy paste, and my earlier deleted comment was more directed at "megadonors, and the Beltway consultant/pundit class".
posted by ishmael at 12:00 PM on August 2 [1 favorite]

Man, when I was twenty, I was still a Styx fan. I had better instincts about stuff when I was twelve.

Yeah so the whole "c'mon they were in college!" shit only works if they've actually evolved since then, Shapiro is explicitly pro-apartheid so not really enough growth and change to convincingly write it off.

If a republican was caught writing something so explicitly racist in college I'm not sure anyone would be making any excuses for them either, it would rightfully be interpreted more as "how they became the piece of shit they are today", not "glimpse of the person they used to be who has since grown."
posted by windbox at 12:03 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Wait, Shapiro was in the IDF?

That's fucked up. I know Israeli-Americans have a complicated vibe with the two countries and have special citizenship rights, but serving in a foreign army seems like it should revoke your US citizenship. Pick a lane!
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:06 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

So we are now at “Okay, so he has probably done war crimes… BUT”
posted by Artw at 12:07 PM on August 2 [9 favorites]

I’m kinda bummed this delegate roll call was virtual. It’s an historic moment.
posted by girlmightlive at 12:09 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Israel has mandatory military service. That alone doesn't speak to any individual's conduct or beliefs, other than they're not a member of whichever orthodox sects are exempt from military service.
posted by stet at 12:14 PM on August 2

stet, are you under the impression he's an Israeli citizen?
posted by sagc at 12:16 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

The Vice President is set to become the first Black woman and first Asian American to lead a major party ticket (CNN)
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:17 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

He applauded the decision to send police to disband a pro-Palestinian encampment at the University of Pennsylvania

He applauded a decision? I was promised he "used the state security forces to violently crush".
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:17 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

That's fucked up. I know Israeli-Americans have a complicated vibe with the two countries and have special citizenship rights, but serving in a foreign army seems like it should revoke your US citizenship.

I'm Jewish and grew up in a pretty Jewish community, it's not entirely uncommon for some kids after high school or college to join/volunteer especially after going on a program like Birthright or a Birthright-style trip or study abroad program, where the primary objective is to gin up youth support for the state of Israel but every now and then you get kids that turn so fanatical they move there and join the army. Which is sort of like a collateral success for those programs even if they aren't explicitly recruiting for the IDF. I know of a few people who did this in their late teens/early 20s.
posted by windbox at 12:18 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

it would rightfully be interpreted more as "how they became the piece of shit they are today", not

so make the point that they're a piece of shit today and use the college stuff as supporting evidence. But the way that original comment was dropped just said basically, he was a piece of shit when he was twenty, so fuck him forever. At least, that's how it landed with me.

And anyway, we don't know Shapiro was piece of shit back then, that it was the totality of who he was. We just know he had some stupid ideas and was foolish enough to say them out loud. Again, there's a twenty year old philip-random way back there who I'm sure I'd be ashamed to admit I even knew, let alone was.

As for Shapiro himself, please don't take this as support. I'd just like to see more thoughtful (ie: less refutable) take downs.
posted by philip-random at 12:18 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

philip-random, would you say the same if it were a republican writing something vilely anti-Black? This is part of what informs Shapiro's character now, and it's foolish to discount it.
posted by sagc at 12:21 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

so make the point that they're a piece of shit today

I think we've discussed that a lot here so yes fuck him forever, if it's not a big deal that he wrote about Palestinians as war-mongering brutes in college I think it's more incumbent on people to make the case that he's not that guy anymore
posted by windbox at 12:22 PM on August 2 [7 favorites]

Actually serving in the IDF is, shall we say, not necessarily ideal for a VP candidate, no.
posted by Justinian at 12:22 PM on August 2 [13 favorites]

Sounds like the type of thing vetting is supposed to consider.
posted by mazola at 12:24 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

As for Shapiro himself, please don't take this as support. I'd just like to see more thoughtful (ie: less refutable) take downs.

Well, as the person who posted that link and said "fuck him," I have also expressed repeated opposition to his various presently held positions, attitudes, and actions, so I'm not sure where you're coming from here.
posted by Gadarene at 12:26 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

I'm pointing out that a lot of people serve in the IDF over their objections to Israeli policy and having been in the IDF does not make actively pro-genocide or a volunteer.

It rubs me the wrong way because of the old 'dual loyalty' thing and it cedes ground to support of israel as a nation or the jewish people in general necessarily support Israel's current genocide.

I don't like it but there were students in my high school (in Wisconsin) who had to make the choice between mandatory service and giving up their Israeli citizenship.

And yeah, I don't like condemning people, especially jewish people, for having a complicated relationship with Israel.

What I expect is an unambiguous 'Stop doing crimes against humanity RIGHT NOW! No more war crimes until next week! Even you Israel."
posted by stet at 12:28 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

So, it seems that Musk and his brain trust are engaging in a spot of election fraud, with a voter registration site that behaves differently if you're in a battleground state:

here's a truth about online voter registration.

It's a fucking pain in the ass.

Every state does it differently. Most states don't invest in anything like modern technology. Some states also don't want to make it easy for their citizens to vote, so they starve their Elections Department of budget and keep their systems antiquated.

A REST API that a system can call to submit results electronically so that different volunteer groups can help register voters? That would be nice wouldn't it? Do any states have it? No they fucking don't! (Well, actually Pennsylvania does because their Digital team is awesome, but they're an outlier), but even the states that do have some of electronic registration that is open to third parties does it a different way in each state.

So, if you were an enterprising PAC or civic nonprofit who wanted to register voters online, you'd have to implement voter registration 50 times. Of course, that's a lot of work, so you have to prioritize, therefore you focus on battleground states first. Non battlegrounds, you just redirect people to the Secretary of State voter registration site, which Musk's PAC does.

It looks like, from a quick inspection of the AmericaPAC source code that they intended to build some kind of widget that would do online voter registration for battlegrounds like Michigan and Arizona, but something about that breaks, so the user just sees a bunch of white space where form is supposed to be. Which is of course what happens.

Is collecting all of that info upfront sketchy? A little bit? But everyone does it?

When I was on the DNC team during the 2020 election, we also changed IWillVote to prompt for a resident's contact info upfront, and this was a pretty heated debate within the team. One side said that people will bail because they're not comfortable giving their contact info and they think we'll just spam them with more fundraising emails (A VERY FAIR WORRY), but the other side maintained that online voting registration is an arcane process. We had data of a high number of people who do not successfully finish registering to vote, so we had to get contact info to follow up with folks in case they didn't finish registering. This volunteer program of contacting folks to help them with registration turned out to be pretty successful; but it did require people to trust us enough to give us their real contact info.

So, this is all to say -- Hanlon's Razor still applies:
1. having your voter registration site behave differently for a battleground state. That's pretty legit behavior. You have scarce resources, and you need to focus on the state with the most leverage.
2. asking for voter contact info upfront for outreach and followup, also legit behavior that shows up on both Democrat and Republican voter registration sites
3. not actually showing a voter a registration form or a link to their SoS site? More likely incompetence and busted code than election fraud.

But if I'm proven wrong and it all turns out to be election fraud then I won't be too surprised either.
posted by bl1nk at 12:28 PM on August 2 [13 favorites]

Wouldn't serving in the military of any other nation be a barrier to potentially becoming the Commander in Chief of the US military?
posted by peppermind at 12:28 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

We just know he had some stupid ideas and was foolish enough to say them out loud.

Stupid ideas such as that Palestinians are a "battle-minded" and "belligerent" people that lack the "capability" to govern themselves in peace?

A stupid idea as a 20-year-old is like, hey, maybe I should get a mullet, or these bangs frame my face well, or I think Bigfoot is probably real.

This is straight up racism that goes to the core of the character of who he was -- and, given his comparison of pro-Palestinian student protestors to the KKK, who he still seems to be as well.
posted by Gadarene at 12:30 PM on August 2 [12 favorites]

stet, can you like to evidence of his dual citizenship? I don't think the point you're making applies to volunteers.
posted by sagc at 12:30 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

Y'all are arguing over a guy who hasn't been picked for VP yet, or is even necessarily likely to be picked. Can we take the temp down a little bit?
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:34 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

By the way, here's another substantive criticism of Shapiro:

Ellen Greenberg was “found” dead by her fiancé with 20 stab wounds. Shapiro sat on the case for 4 years, upheld the cause of death as suicide (originally ruled homicide), and punted due to a conflict of interest: his ties to the fiancé, whose family is close friends with Shapiro.

link
posted by Gadarene at 12:36 PM on August 2 [11 favorites]

Dude likes coverups.
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on August 2 [11 favorites]

I remember now why we got rid of the megathreads. When there's no actual news it just devolves into people sniping back and forth at each other.
posted by downtohisturtles at 12:39 PM on August 2 [28 favorites]

Our definitions of "actual news" are different.
posted by Gadarene at 12:41 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

For no particular reason:

'It's very intense': The vice presidential vetting process, from those who have been vetted [USA Today]
posted by mazola at 12:41 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

Well I hope they are seeing this shit too.
posted by Artw at 12:42 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Sorry, I'm writing poorly.

What I mean to say is that Shapiro's service in the IDF doesn't disqualify him and is not a reason to question his loyalty to the United States or anything.

Participation in Israeli society is not a bad thing and 'dual loyalty' accusation are bullshit is what I'm trying to say.

I do not think Shapiro is a dual citizen or not. Honestly it hadn't occurred to me as something in question.

The point I attempted to make is that many people serve in the IDF because they've basically been drafted. I voluntarily registered for selective service but that doesn't mean I'm trying out for the Abu Ghraib re-enactment squad.

Please accept my apologies for noising up the thread. I look forward to casting my vote for Kamala and her eventual VP candidate after they inevitably endorse an immediate end to the Palestinian genocide and throw their support behind the ICJ.
posted by stet at 12:48 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

Like, of all the things making me thing Shapiro is willing to back Netanyahu in throwing every single palestinian man, woman, and child into a wood chipper serving in the IDF barely makes the list.
posted by stet at 12:51 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

Given the descriptions of the vetting process ("more intrusive than a colonoscopy"), I expect they'll know what they're getting if they go with Shapiro, or with any of the other contenders.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:51 PM on August 2 [1 favorite]

So, this is all to say -- Hanlon's Razor still applies

Grey's Corollary to Hanlon's Razor also still applies, though:
Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:54 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

I expect they'll know what they're getting if they go with Shapiro, or with any of the other contenders.

That's exactly my worry, yeah.
posted by Gadarene at 12:54 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

By the way, here's another substantive criticism of Shapiro:

Ellen Greenberg was “found” dead by her fiancé with 20 stab wounds. Shapiro sat on the case for 4 years, upheld the cause of death as suicide (originally ruled homicide), and punted due to a conflict of interest: his ties to the fiancé, whose family is close friends with Shapiro.

Dec. 12, 2019: AG Shapiro Announces Settlement with Temple University over MBA Ranking Misrepresentation [Settlement Terms, Court Filing link] The false reporting, which was done intentionally and knowingly to boost the school’s rankings, elevated Fox Business School as the nation’s top Online MBA program for several consecutive years. The school used this ranking to attract prospective student applicants.

“This behavior mislead students, alumni, employers and the public about the quality and value of these Temple programs. Temple University has accepted responsibility for its role in this conduct and has been proactive and cooperative in addressing it,” Attorney General Shapiro said of the more than one-year investigation.

Settlement terms included funding small scholarships, paying the AG's office $50K as reimbursement for the investigation, creating an oversight office, employing an independent auditor to monitor data reporting, establishing new employee training and "develop and promote robust direct and indirect reporting mechanisms for whistleblower protections, including a whistleblower hotline"...

In 2018, the longtime dean of Fox Business, Moshe Porat, was fired over the US News & World Report ratings fakery, and three years later:
Former Temple University business dean convicted of fraud in rankings scheme (NBC, Nov. 30, 2021). He was sentenced in 2022 and last year's appeal failed. Porat v. United States is pending petition.

I don't know if then-AG Shapiro's handling of this scandal and investigation has bearing on the Harris campaign's choice of Temple as Tuesday's venue.

I - I just don't want this to be the last Walz.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:01 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

So, the guy who became state attorney general in 2017 (and previously had never been a prosecutor or connected to Philadelphia government) was responsible for the Philadelphia DA potentially mishandling a 2011 murder?

According to the pennlive.com article linked at the tweet referenced in the comment you're quoting, no, the Philadelphia DA did the mishandling from 2011-2017 and 2022-??? Shapiro's only responsible for sitting on the case from 2017-2021 and then, in 2022, returning the case to the Philadelphia DA to avoid the "appearance of a conflict of interest" and saying it "regretted" not being able to help any further.
posted by penduluum at 1:17 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

[Shapiro's IDF service] Sounds like the type of thing vetting is supposed to consider.

And for all any of us outsiders know, they are very likely considering it as we speak, and very well may agree and move to someone else.

The vetting process is still going on. Harris is meeting with the potential candidates over the course of this weekend, I believe. And we don't know what they're going to be talking about, what notes she's going to have been prepped with, what kinds of dossiers have been assembled, or what have you. This doesn't prevent any of us from coming up with our own opinions and wish lists, but - we will not know who Harris is going to choose until Tuesday, and assuming thus-and-such a thing is a done deal or that thus-and-such a thing is not being considered is probably inaccurate.

The old megathreads also started out quoting Hamilton a lot, so in that vein: No one else is in the room where it's happening, so we don't know what they are or aren't talking about. I don't now about you, but for the sake of nothing else but my own blood pressure I'm going to assume that Shapiro's IDF service will be taken under advisement - as will Walz' actions during the George Floyd protests, Mark Kelly's tenuous relations with labor unions, Beshear's being a total unknown to voters, Roy Cooper abandoning the state to a Republican Lt. Governor, etc., etc., etc. The Hill has a decent analysis of the pros and cons for each candidate, and Shapiro's position on Gaza is front and center in the "con" column for him.

Again, we can all speculate about and discuss our own concerns about any candidate at length - but we're not the ones Harris is talking to. And she's too smart to not be talking to experts, so....I think it's safe to assume the vetting is still ongoing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:20 PM on August 2 [7 favorites]

The Hill also has a separate article just on the progressive push-back to Shapiro so yeah, it's definitely not flying under the radar.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:25 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Man, that article from The Hill:

Kelly’s supporters note that he could provide a strong defense against Republican attacks on Harris and Democrats over the handling of the southern border. While critics have pointed to Harris’s weakness on the issue, Kelly has long called on more resources to be deployed to Arizona to deal with the influx of migrants crossing the border.

Prominent Dems are just really leaning hard into fascism-lite on this issue (as well as several others), huh?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:25 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

Nancy Pelosi is in favor of Walz, btw.
posted by Gadarene at 1:31 PM on August 2 [17 favorites]

[Shapiro's IDF service] Sounds like the type of thing vetting is supposed to consider.

I am sure they are absolutely vetting it from the standpoint of how much that data point will make the Gen Z/Online/College Lefty component squawk negatively about the campaign, and trying to calculate if the trade off is worth it if they think it boosts their chances in PA. But what I would speculate they aren't concerned about is vetting from any kind of security-minded standpoint like "oh he served in a foreign military", I don't think people really care about that aspect. We're talking about a country where teachers in Texas have to sign an oath that they won't boycott Israel.
posted by windbox at 1:32 PM on August 2 [9 favorites]

Well I hope they are seeing this shit to

Him volunteering for the IDF is on Wikipedia so would be hard to overlook.

More likely incompetence and busted code than election fraud.

Or both. We are talking about Musk here. He probably got a single high school student to code up the site as a class project while working 16 hr days in an office with no bathroom.
posted by Mitheral at 1:35 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

I am sure they are absolutely vetting it from the standpoint of how much that data point will make the Gen Z/Online/College Lefty component squawk negatively about the campaign, and trying to calculate if the trade off is worth it if they think it boosts their chances in PA. But what I would speculate they aren't concerned about is vetting from any kind of security-minded standpoint like "oh he served in a foreign military", I don't think people really care about that aspect.

Genuinely curious - what makes you assume that Harris' advisors wouldn't consider the security ramifications of Shapiro, or any potential VP candidate?.....I grant I'm not one of her advisors, but that strikes me as, like, one of the first things they'd consider about anyone.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:36 PM on August 2 [1 favorite]

omigosh quick someone send this thread to the Harris team. Some peeps at Metafilter surely know better than the official vetting people.
posted by Glinn at 1:43 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Him volunteering for the IDF is on Wikipedia so would be hard to overlook.

Thinking more the low key corruption vibes/general easiness with sex crimes TBH. I don’t kid myself that they might see the IDF thing as a problem if not a plus.
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

omigosh quick someone send this thread to the Harris team. Some peeps at Metafilter surely know better than the official vetting people.

Once again, there is a difference between knowing about a thing and caring about a thing. I am certain that Harris and her team know that Shapiro likened student protestors of genocide to the KKK. Whether they ultimately care enough about that for it to be a dispositive factor is a different, and more telling, question.

I guess we'll see.

Like, we can all agree that there are things Shapiro could have said or done in the past that would unquestionably disqualify him from consideration as a VP candidate even if he were still the popular governor of a crucial battleground state. We can all imagine those things. If it came out that one of his favorite hobbies is torturing puppies, he would not be in the discussion. There are red lines.

It's just a matter of what those lines are to Harris and her staff, individually or cumulatively.
posted by Gadarene at 1:53 PM on August 2 [9 favorites]

People who choose to participate in a foreign country that is an explicitly racist apartheid state with decades of war crimes and genocidal activities are not good people.

We had Americans helping South Africa and Rhodesia in the 1970's and 80's, we had people selling Nazi Bonds in the 1930's, we had volunteer soldiers in various colonial wars. None of them were right, just, or good. At the most charitable, they were confused.
posted by chaz at 2:00 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

the vetting process ("more intrusive than a colonoscopy")

I've had colonoscopies and they are not that bad. It's a valid medical screening procedure that has value in everyone's healtcare, once they reach a certain age. I hope no one uses this analogy as a reason to skip it.

It does open the door for a joke about how the Republicans just looked up DJT's ass and picked whoever had their head up there the furthest.
posted by achrise at 2:04 PM on August 2 [25 favorites]

Genuinely curious - what makes you assume that Harris' advisors wouldn't consider the security ramifications of Shapiro, or any potential VP candidate?

I'm just assuming that the types of people who would express "National Security Concerns" - mainstream pundits or columnists for instance who deal in natsec issues - very few of them are going to make noise about it when it pertains to Israel. I mean for the same reason the Israel lobby funds tons right-wing democratic primary challenger campaigns or literally spies on college students; this is never brought up as a foreign entity interfering in US affairs or US politics so I don't see why someone volunteering for the IDF would be presented as a security issue or have any traction, especially considering the "special relationship" with Israel that is constantly touted. But that's just my theory.

Some peeps at Metafilter surely know better than the official vetting people.

I do actually. I know better than the vetting people.
posted by windbox at 2:06 PM on August 2 [9 favorites]

Kelly is not my choice, but calling his actions on immigration “fascism-lite” when a lot of them seem to have been taken to avoid people dying in the desert is nonsense.
posted by Captaintripps at 2:09 PM on August 2 [11 favorites]

I'm just assuming that the types of people who would express "National Security Concerns" - mainstream pundits or columnists for instance who deal in natsec issues - very few of them are going to make noise about it when it pertains to Israel.

Gently:

1. You're assuming this is the case, as you state.

2. You're also assuming this about "the types of people who would express these concerns", but the only people you list as examples are "pundits or columnists". Harris is likely receiving her guidance from members of the government (the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the Dept. of Homeland Security, etc.) as opposed to receiving this guidance from pundits or columnists. Those pundits and columnists are outsiders just like you and me - at best they can make educated guesses, but they aren't the ones in the room with Harris or prepping her with reports on each candidate.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:12 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

And thirdly:

I do actually. I know better than the vetting people.

I find it entirely possible you might know better than a given pundit or columnist. But, the pundits and the columnists are not the ones doing the vetting. If you still claim you know better than the actual people doing the vetting I'm going to need to know what your government security clearance rating is, otherwise you'll have to forgive my skepticism.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:14 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

I would assume that we are the lightest possible set of critics the VP could possibly face on all matters outside of I/P. After us it’s people who seriously do want to find a knife to gut the campaign with.
posted by Artw at 2:18 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

What's up with Philadelphia Mayor Cherelle Parker posting this on IG, making it seem like Shapiro is already the choice? I mean I assume it's supposed to be like "Whee, pick Josh!" but it certainly could be taken as someone posted this a few days too early. The website they mention kind of leads to the former interpretation, since it's pa for harris rather than pa for harrisshapiro.
posted by cashman at 2:23 PM on August 2

bl1nk Texas, ever the leader in vote suppression, decided that merely having online voter registration being a pain in the ass wasn't keeping enough people from registering so they just ended it entirely.

Now the only way you can register to vote in Texas is to use paper and pen, then mail it or take it somewhere in person. I'm pretty sure that they'll get rid of mailing in the voter registration as an option pretty soon.

EmpressCallipygos You don't think all the "no one knows until the last second" stuff is just theater? I've always worked on the assumption that the VP decision was made at least several days ago and they were just playing up the who will it be thing for clicks.

If it isn't theater it seems like a really slipshod way to run things.
posted by sotonohito at 2:25 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

New York Times, yesterday: Bipartisan Legal Group Urges Lawyers to Defend Against ‘Rising Authoritarianism

A bipartisan American Bar Association task force is calling on lawyers across the country to do more to help protect democracy ahead of the 2024 election, warning in a statement to be delivered Friday at the group’s annual meeting in Chicago that the nation faces a serious threat in “rising authoritarianism.”

The statement by a panel of prominent legal thinkers and other public figures — led by J. Michael Luttig, a conservative former federal appeals court judge appointed by President George Bush, and Jeh C. Johnson, a Homeland Security secretary during the Obama administration — does not mention by name former President Donald J. Trump.

But in raising alarms, the panel appeared to be clearly referencing Mr. Trump’s attempt to subvert his loss of the 2020 election, which included attacks on election workers who were falsely accused by Mr. Trump and his supporters of rigging votes and culminated in the violent attack on the Capitol by his supporters on Jan. 6, 2021

The alarm bells are sounding yall. We might want to get a bit more focused and organized or it won't matter if she chooses the perfect VP. We're here worried about who gets put up, but they are out there planning on how to win regardless of who is opposing Trump.
posted by cashman at 2:33 PM on August 2 [13 favorites]

EmpressCallipygos You don't think all the "no one knows until the last second" stuff is just theater? I've always worked on the assumption that the VP decision was made at least several days ago and they were just playing up the who will it be thing for clicks.

I note the word "Assumption" there. And no, I don't think it's just theater. Not that I literally think that Harris is going to decide seconds before walking out on a stage to say "here's who I picked!" or anything, but I also don't think that she's already made up her mind and is conducting a massive fake-out on all of us.

If it isn't theater it seems like a really slipshod way to run things.

Alternately, it's a team of advisors giving each candidate the thorough vetting process such a decision deserves. Why would you categorize thorough screening to be "slipshod"?

I mean, shit, I'm applying for jobs where I'm largely going to be typing, filing, answering phones and scheduling business meetings, but the places I'm applying are still putting me through multiple interviews and screening processes. I'd imagine that the position of Vice President calls for an even more thorough vetting process than does the position of Office Manager At Random Tech Company.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:38 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Democrats Have Finally Learned the Value of Shitposting
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

You're also assuming this about "the types of people who would express these concerns", but the only people you list as examples are "pundits or columnists"

No I'm just trying to say that - insofar as one of the goals of vetting someone is to try and get in front of anything that could be seen as compromising to Shapiro and damaging to the wider campaign - my assumption is that "served in the IDF" is generally not going to be viewed as anything particularly compromising from any kind of NatSec standpoint, as calling that into question as some kind of scandalous NatSec data point would call into question a hell of a lot of other things about our "special relationship" with Israel, how much money we give their military, how much money they give to US campaigns, and the amount of influence they have in our politics and affairs.

I also imagine it would easily be rebuffed with "yes I volunteered for one of the United States greatest and most important allies, I am proud of this and have nothing to hide" and I'm trying to imagine a CNN interviewer pressing him further on this as though it could be really malicious, but not really envisioning it. If it were Isaac Chotner or Jacobin or something...maybe another story.

But yes I am imagining, yes just my assumption and yes I am just speculating in a politics thread.

If you still claim you know better than the actual people doing the vetting I'm going to need to know what your government security clearance rating is

It's the highest rating!
posted by windbox at 2:41 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

If it isn't theater it seems like a really slipshod way to run things.

Bear in mind that a candidate usually has months to consider potential running mates after securing the nomination, and Harris has had to compress all of that including vetting, coalition checkins and direct interviews into two weeks -- maybe less if there's an announcement tomorrow! It's absolutely believable to me that the search is as hectic as it appears given that timeline.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:45 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

I tried the "america pac" bullshit, the latest effort from the Musk scourge, and it indeed discriminates by zip code. If you fill in a zip code from a red state, you get to register to vote. If you fill in a zip code from, say, Marietta, Georgia, however, it takes you to a data scraping page so that you can then say that your name is Mike Hunt and your e-mail address is "suckonitalldayelonyouunbelievablepieceofshit@Juno.com" and that you live at 666 Sukmadik Lane and are 106 years of age etc. etc. etc. Once you get all the way through, it sends you to a Thank You! page that mumbles out a wad of inexpertly copypasted yack at the bottom. It reads as follows:

Disclaimer: You are not officially registered to vote until your eligibility has been determined by the appropriate board of registrars and that, if you have not received notification of the disposition of the application within two weeks of submitting the application, you should contact the appropriate board of registrars to determine if your eligibility has been determined and your name is entered on the official list of electors. If you are registering to vote for the first time in the jurisdiction by mail, you must present current and valid identification either when registering to vote or when voting for the first time after registering.

One, they didn't even edit the disclaimer they copied from whereverthefuck to make it grammatical.
Two, the disclaimer does not actually disclaim what it needs to disclaim. At no point is the main claim of the whole operation, "we're helping you register to vote!" dissed. Their sloppily plagiarized paragraph does not let their victims know they haven't just registered to vote. In fact, it strongly implies that they have registered and that now they need only sit back and wait for two weeks to see if "the appropriate board of registrars" responds.

Hah hah, count the jellybeans in the jar, hah! So amusing. I hope Elon Musk trips and falls into a [redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted] and then [redacted redacted] until he [redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted].
posted by Don Pepino at 2:47 PM on August 2 [16 favorites]

It's the highest rating!

The best security clearance rating, just the biggest. Many people are saying that nobody has ever had a security clearance rating like mine.
posted by Gadarene at 2:50 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

> You're also assuming this about "the types of people who would express these concerns", but the only people you list as examples are "pundits or columnists"

No I'm just trying to say that - insofar as one of the goals of vetting someone is to try and get in front of anything that could be seen as compromising to Shapiro and damaging to the wider campaign - my assumption is that "served in the IDF" is generally not going to be viewed as anything particularly compromising from any kind of NatSec standpoint, as calling that into question as some kind of scandalous NatSec data point would call into question a hell of a lot of other things about our "special relationship" with Israel, how much money we give their military, how much money they give to US campaigns, and the amount of influence they have in our politics and affairs.

Oh, I see what your perspective is now....I can't say I necessarily share it, but I do understand your point better.

I'd only counter with the what-if that: suppose Shapiro's IDF membership does indeed raise some red flags in some NatSec documents. It strikes me that instead of that kind of calling-into-question you're talking about, it'd be easier for Harris to quietly just pick someone else instead. We're not going to know the full reasons why one person was picked instead of another, but the same is true of any job.

My larger point, though, is that our not-knowing the full reasons doesn't mean there aren't a full set of reasons. We can all guess at what they are all we like, but we won't know for sure without a FOIA filing or knowing someone on the inside with loose lips. Even more so while that vetting process is still going on. I mean, hell, maybe tomorrow there will be a breaking news piece that one of the potential Veeps suddenly snapped under the stress and started speaking in tongues in an Arby's, and that will change the dynamic somewhat.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:05 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

Damn, I'm just so excited that Harris and her team seem to be miles and miles better than the typical democratic shitshow. I mean two weeks ago it was 'trump is going to destroy the (slightly) older (but waaaay sharper) guy' and the national media complex freaking loved it, and then they got orgasmic when they got their way with Biden stepping down.

But Harris at all crushed that beyond idiotic 'jungle' primary garbage the NYT was putting out over and over. And she's generated staggering enthusiasm (and sadly/importantly huge $$$). The Harris team has run an amazing two weeks and I'm just overjoyed. I've gone from 'Trump gets the trifecta and bye bye democracy' to 'holy shit she's going to win' (the popular vote by like 10m votes) - but realistically its going to come down to 10 people in AZ, PA, Wisc and Nev. as usual that sucks!

But I'll take this little bit of joy for all its worth!
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:05 PM on August 2 [13 favorites]

To answer my own question from earlier, CBS news got comment regarding Philadelphia Mayor Cherelle Parker's IG post.

A source at City Hall told CBS News Philadelphia the video is not a premature announcement of Shapiro being selected as Harris' running mate, but rather Parker's endorsement to show her support for Pennsylvania's governor.

posted by cashman at 3:12 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

Andi McClure on the Fediverse:

Really fascinating to watch Harris from one side of her mouth calling for Marsha Blackburn's KOSA to pass, and from the other side of her mouth court LGBT voters by saying she'd pass the Equality Act.

Taking these two positions at face value, the vision is a world where trans people CAN get jobs within capitalism, but CANNOT have free speech online (and definitely cannot, under any circumstances, have childhoods).

posted by adrienneleigh at 3:39 PM on August 2 [7 favorites]

It’s been fun to watch Trump’s evolving rationale for that puddle of urine pooling around his feet whenever someone asks him about debating Harris.

Sure, he wanted to debate, he said, but he wasn’t going to commit to debating Harris because “Obama might be looking for someone better.”

Then Obama endorsed Harris.

Sure, Trump then said, he wanted to debate, but wasn’t ready to commit to debating Harris, because “Harris wasn’t yet the nominee.”

Then today, Harris received the nomination.

Now Trump is saying, sure he wants to debate, but why should he, because he’s up in the polls (a lie) and everybody already knows him and Harris.

The guy is obviously so scared of debating Harris, and I suspect his disastrous performance at the NABJ is only adding to that.
posted by darkstar at 3:41 PM on August 2 [12 favorites]

WaPo:

"Vice President Harris has narrowed her search for a running mate to six finalists and is planning to interview them this weekend, putting her on the cusp of what is likely to be the most scrutinized decision of her whirlwind candidacy, according to two people familiar with the process who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential deliberations.
Harris’s finalists are Govs. Andy Beshear of Kentucky, J.B. Pritzker of Illinois, Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania and Tim Walz of Minnesota, as well as Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and Sen. Mark Kelly of Arizona, the people said. Representatives for Beshear, Buttigieg and Shapiro confirmed that those officials had canceled previously scheduled plans for this weekend."

posted by jenfullmoon at 3:41 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

It won't be Pritzker or Buttgieg. None of the others would particularly surprise me. I think maybe Kelly is slightly less likely than the other three despite me thinking he was the most likely choice a week ago. But other than that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Justinian at 3:52 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

The guy is obviously so scared of debating Harris, and I suspect his disastrous performance at the NABJ is only adding to that.

I think maybe NABJ was a tactical victory for him in that it got him back in the news and allowed him to roll out his new narrative - but maybe less of a strategic one in that the new narrative is just birtherism and that’s some tired old garbage that I doubt sells well.
posted by Artw at 4:03 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

Which of these eminently qualified contenders could earn the Golden Gavel?

"Representatives for Beshear, Buttigieg and Shapiro confirmed that those officials had canceled previously scheduled plans for this weekend."
So it's NOT any of them.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:06 PM on August 2

June 24, 2024, Walz appeared MSNBC's Morning Joe [the gig economy is inescapable] and talked about the upcoming election:

WALZ: [I]t won't happen without the hard work, so I'm really pleased to see the Biden folks taking it seriously, and we know the upper Midwest. It's us, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania are a big piece of it.

We'll do our job, get it done, but look, when Joe Biden comes out to Minnesota, he brings jobs and decency.

Donald Trump's on his grievance tour, and he leaves us with bills for his security, so those things are starting to take hold.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:15 PM on August 2 [15 favorites]

I love him. He's like if Bernie Sanders had a practical rather than revolutionary bent.
posted by Gadarene at 4:39 PM on August 2 [12 favorites]

(I'm not kidding myself that Walz is some sort of radical, although he did say something like "what they call socialism I call being neighborly," which is awesome. I just appreciate how he always brings it back to doing things to improve the lives of Americans in tangible ways.)
posted by Gadarene at 4:40 PM on August 2 [23 favorites]

From last hour: Reuters: Harris to meet vice president candidates this weekend before making her pick

By Jarrett Renshaw and Nandita Bose

WASHINGTON, Aug 2 (Reuters) - U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris plans to meet in person this weekend with the top contenders vying to become her presidential running mate for November's election as she nears a final decision on her pick, according to two sources familiar with the process.

On Friday the Democratic candidate met one-on-one with U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, one of the leading contenders, and the meeting lasted roughly 90 minutes, according to two other sources familiar with the meeting.

...

Her shortlist of candidates includes all white men with a track record of winning over rural, white or independent voters.

I love that Buttigieg is still being considered. Walz, then him then Kelly is my top 3. There's also been reporting today that she hired David Plouffe among others, to be an adviser.
posted by cashman at 4:54 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

Why Buttigieg over Beshear, if you don't mind me asking?
posted by Gadarene at 4:56 PM on August 2

Since it's Daily Walz Appreciation Hour, I will add this article to the mix.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/power/2024/08/02/tim-walz-kamala-harris/
.
posted by kensington314 at 4:56 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Man, after that Wapo article, gotta say I'm really hoping for Walz, not just for his bonafides and record, but for the pure optics of a Harris/Walz ticket where you've got these two happy looking people: Kamala Harris, who generally looks competent and cheerful without sacrificing seriousness, and Walz, who does in fact look like Your Favorite History Teacher and also kind of Santa, and both of them are just, like, happy and smiling and laughing and generally looking like two people you wouldn't mind having a beer with and/or leaving your puppy with. And then there's Trump/Vance. Who basically radiate a miasma of being shambolic creepy weirdos, the kind of people you would in fact leave a bar to avoid and who you would absolutely never ever entrust with a small, helpless animal.
posted by yasaman at 5:25 PM on August 2 [44 favorites]

He's definitely got the "happy warrior" thing
posted by kensington314 at 5:30 PM on August 2 [1 favorite]

Walz fits the model for the Veep as affable backup. Buttigeig, by comparison, is a fucking assassin. Love him, hate him, discount him, his current status is built on distilling the forward edge of the current administration's thinking into acid, cutting talking points that he is fearlessly willing to take on o Fox News, etc. I'm up and down (mostly down) on him as an actual politician, but his terse takedowns would be a whole new path for a Veep.

From a HuffPo piece on his recent Daily Show appearance:

Buttigieg highlighted Vance’s argument that people who don’t have children “have no physical commitment to the future of this country.”

“When I was deployed to Afghanistan, I didn’t have kids back then, but I will tell you, especially when there was a rocket attack going on, my commitment to this country felt pretty physical,” said Buttigieg.

posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:42 PM on August 2 [23 favorites]

The Hill, from this evening: Most Dems in new survey approve of Buttigieg, Kelly on Harris VP shortlist

Among the names on Vice President Harris’s running mate shortlist, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and Sen. Mark Kelly (D-Ariz.) were ranked the highest by Democratic voters, a new survey found.

The survey, released Friday by YouGov, found that Buttigieg and Kelly were the most popular picks to join Harris’s bid for the White House.

Buttigieg was the most popular, with 58 percent of Democratic voters or Democratic-leaning independents saying they approve of him as a possible vice president. Kelly, a former astronaut, trailed closely behind with 57 percent.

Link to the YouGov survey which was done July 29 - 31. The methodology is at the end.
posted by cashman at 6:05 PM on August 2 [1 favorite]

To some extent, all a poll like that tells you is which names people are already familiar with, though, doesn't it?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:08 PM on August 2 [15 favorites]

Buttigieg is pretty impressive at failing upward, I have to say.

Must be that McKinsey principlelessness.
posted by Gadarene at 6:11 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

That's the part I can't work around myself: he's a McKinsey twerp. Such a great speaker and communicator. But ugh.

Part of me would like to forget he even exists, but another part hears how perfectly he frames what he says on TV and notes that even my elderly socially conservative centrist mom loves him and I think, "Send this man out to do messaging."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:15 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

I find the breathless "oh he worked for McKinsey so he must be a ghoul" thing darkly amusing. Maybe that's just because I've known people whose political views are about as far left as you can get who have done a stint at management consulting firms. I can't say about McKinsey specifically, but the ones I have more familiarity with appreciate deep skepticism of the status quo since that helps with the work. They just won't let you in to upper management because they don't want you thinking you can tear down their house.
posted by wierdo at 6:19 PM on August 2 [11 favorites]

Whoo, we're so good at avoiding data we don't like in here, it's impressive in a way. Anyhow, I really hope azpenguin is right and this ends up being one of the best sports-like sleights of hand ever, and they go with someone who isn't Josh Shapiro. I just can't imagine with everyone they've got advising this campaign, that they screw it up this badly. Hoping for ye olde 8-dimensional chess.
posted by cashman at 6:21 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

It would be a big step back for him without a lot of political future (although I think he could spin one out of it) but I'd love to see what Buttigieg would be like as White House Press Secretary, being a great communicator while thinking on his feet in front of cameras under pressure is undoubtedly his biggest skill.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:22 PM on August 2 [6 favorites]

What if he was chief of staff, or even combined chief of staff & press secretary? I know that's probably crazy, but ... ?
posted by Reverend John at 6:33 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

Since yesterday, PredictIt now has Harris favored to win by a narrow margin.

And Nate Silver has recalculated based on the most recent polls, and has Trump’s lead in his model whittled down to nearly a statistical tie with Harris, that he’s calling a “toss-up”.

We have come a long-ass way in two weeks!
posted by darkstar at 6:35 PM on August 2 [12 favorites]

The McKinsey stuff is kind of silly that literally no one who isn’t extremely online cares about. How long did he work there? Would anyone give a shit if he worked for say, BCG or Deloitte?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:37 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

being a great communicator while thinking on his feet in front of cameras under pressure is undoubtedly his biggest skill.

Gotta agree with that. He may be the most surgically devastating, real-time de-constructor of right-wing talking points we have on Team Blue.

I’m not anti-Pete for VP, as such, but I think Walz as VP is probably what is needed more in this moment. I suspect Pete could successfully run for Governor or Senator of Michigan in the not-too-distant future — Stabenow is 74 and Whitmer is term-limited in 2026 — and one of those may be better for him than the VP slot anyway.
posted by darkstar at 6:42 PM on August 2 [7 favorites]

From WaPo, Harris hires Obama campaign veterans to join 2024 effort, replacing Biden loyalists:

David Plouffe, a top strategist on both of Obama’s presidential campaigns, joins Harris as senior adviser for strategy and the states focused on winning the electoral college. Stephanie Cutter, the deputy campaign manager for Obama’s reelection who has been working in recent months with Harris, is the new senior adviser for strategy messaging. Mitch Stewart, a grass-roots organizing strategist behind both Obama wins, will become the senior adviser for battleground states. David Binder, who led Obama’s public opinion research operation and previously worked for Harris, will expand his role on the Harris campaign to lead the opinion research operation.

All of the new hires will report to campaign chair Jen O’Malley Dillon, another veteran of Obama’s two campaigns.

posted by needled at 6:50 PM on August 2 [13 favorites]

Those are some serious A-Team hires. Very encouraging!
posted by darkstar at 6:56 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

I checked out Mark Kelly's bio on Wikipedia expecting he'd be up the ass of the ol military industrial complex, being a fighter pilot and astronaut, and discovered that he wrote a children's book. Whoah. TIL.
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:57 PM on August 2 [4 favorites]

On the Mark Kelly front:

Sketchy Pyramid Scheme Video Emerges of Former Astronaut Being Considered for VP.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:05 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

Also he's spoken to the Pope from space!
posted by mmoncur at 7:05 PM on August 2 [2 favorites]

Buttigieg is so strange to me, I don't dislike him but his posture and energy doesn't hit with me. He hunches and scrapes and speaks softly. Hmm but maybe that was some old skool VP Biden energy, I dunno. I was all about Kelly on paper but Walz gave me some America feels so he feels like the smart pick, imo. I hope none of this speculation matters and we are full steam ahead regardless of who on Tuesday.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:18 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

I just use McKinsey as a shorthand for the fact that Buttigieg genuinely doesn't seem to believe in anything other than what helps him advance and what plays well with donors.

His one-two step in the primaries of being in favor of Medicare For All until he saw that he couldn't make headway in the Sanders/Warren lane and then promptly opposing it was pretty representative to me.

He was a shitty mayor, too.
posted by Gadarene at 7:29 PM on August 2 [13 favorites]

Harris to interview final VP contenders this weekend with decision imminent (USA Today) (JFC, I wouldn't want to interview with VP Harris. It's, "You think you can do my job" and then what, you wait her out?) *checks timepiece* oh, jolly good.

Star Trib: On their first date, Tim Walz took Gwen Whipple to see the darkly eccentric Michael Douglas movie "Falling Down" and then went to the only restaurant in town that wasn't a bar, a Hardee's. The conversation was stirring. As she tells it, he leaned in for a kiss. She said no. His reply: "That's fine, but you should know I'm going to marry you."

He taught social studies and she taught English, and at one point they shared a big classroom in their Nebraska high school. She could hear how engaged his students were. She became smitten. [...] She's self-effacing about Tim Walz's more-natural charisma: "The fun Walz and the other Walz," the students called them.

But some of her students will never forget her. Jacob Reitan, a Minneapolis attorney, says he remembers when Walz told her English students in 1997 that there would be no bullying of gay and lesbian students. "It meant the world to me. I was shaking. I thought the class could hear my heart beating," Reitan says.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:34 PM on August 2 [22 favorites]

Kelly has long called on more resources to be deployed to Arizona to deal with the influx of migrants crossing the border.

This is Arizona we're talking about, if he doesn't play up at least some border security, he doesn't win two senate elections in 2 years in a state that has been red for a long time. I don't like it but it's the reality of Arizona politics. It's an issue you can't escape here.
posted by azpenguin at 7:35 PM on August 2 [11 favorites]

PS Shapiro's wikipedia entry has updated re: "IDF service":... In the 1993 article Shapiro described himself as "a past volunteer in the Israeli army." Manuel Bonder, a spokesperson for Shapiro, also spoke with The Times of Israel to clarify his volunteer work in Israel, stating that while in high school, he completed a service project with other classmates at a kibbutz that included volunteering on a military base operated by the Israel Defense Forces. He clarified that Shapiro was "at no time engaged in any military activities."
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:35 PM on August 2 [5 favorites]

So his team is downplaying his involvement with the IDF? Maybe there’s some concern about Shapiro being too pro Israel?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:16 PM on August 2 [3 favorites]

More the other way around: sounds like he talked up the IDF involvement to sound badass in 1993 and is now being found out - bearing in mind that in 1993 claiming to be an "IDF volunteer" would have played pretty differently to now.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:22 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

I found the heavy-handedness of this Axios piece somewhat revealing:

No more bombshells. The system is overloaded. Democrats believe that if Harris has telegraphed it's Shapiro, she should pick Shapiro.

"We made up some shit and now you have to go along with it or you'll look indecisive!"

Whoever came up with that is an experienced bureaucratic infighter but not a very good one.
posted by Not A Thing at 9:31 PM on August 2 [13 favorites]

> post birth abortion

This all seems to stem (at least based on how TFG often brings it up) from an ill-advised comment by then Virginia Governor Ralph Northam about a fetus discovered to be non-viable when near delivery date and how a DNR might work for a newly-delivered baby.

It's a disingenuous interpretation, it's awful and I've now read enough stories of women traveling out of state to get late term abortions for their own health to be really pissed off not just that they're fscking with healthcare, but they're bringing up this heartbreaking scenario over & over. Many (most?) of the women wanted to have babies, but something goes wrong & they'd like to just survive, thanks.

I'm glad women have come forward to tell their stories, but it's so fucking sad, I can't imagine having to do it to being some truth back into the "controversy." I can't imagine having a stillbirth and being worried about being charged with a crime for seeking after care.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 10:10 PM on August 2 [10 favorites]

"then Governor Ralph Northam" aka Dr. Ralph Northam, pediatric neurologist, and I wish that bit got mentioned more often (like, say, in the AP News article ASCII Costanza head links)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:37 PM on August 2 [11 favorites]

(Sorry - to be clear, I'm angry at the media coverage of the 2019 radio-show comments, not you, ASCII C.h.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:39 PM on August 2 [1 favorite]

Tweet from Josh Shapiro on Sept 24, 2011:

UN Speech by @IsraeliPM Netanyahu is one of the finest, fact-based speeches ever re Mideast peace. Peace must precede Palestinian state

Context for Netanyahu's speech:

Abbas defies US with formal call for Palestinian recognition by UN (The Guardian, Sept 23, 2011)

Full text of Netanyahu's speech (link automatically opens a PDF file; Netanyahu's speech begins on p. 36 of the PDF).
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 11:56 PM on August 2 [8 favorites]

Disgusting!
posted by kensington314 at 12:19 AM on August 3 [3 favorites]

I don't know how Shapiro gets picked without killing a ton of the good will and momentum that's happening at the moment.

My big question about Shapiro right now is: what has he done that hasn't come to light yet? Because with some of the shit that has made the rounds the past couple days - there's almost certainly more stuff that isn't public. Pls, I hope this vetting team is doing the deep dive here.

I like Walz (based on what I've seen in the last couple weeks), Beshear is just kind of boring to me (which, look, there may be something to be said for boring in this particular campaign), I enjoy Pete Buttigieg being able to run his mouth so think another position might be the thing for him at this point. I understand why people think Mark Kelly could be a compelling pick (he's just not my pick.)
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 1:00 AM on August 3 [10 favorites]

Caveat that I dislike Buttigieg on principle but I also basically feel she'll choose the candidate she feels convinced will help guarantee a win, which is fine by me.

That said: is Buttigieg all that great a communicator? I appreciate that he goes on Fox News and fights the fight or whatever, but is there any evidence his impressive rhetorical takedowns work with people who are not committed Dem voters? Or is he just preaching to a choir that doesn't attend that particular cable news church ?
posted by kensington314 at 1:22 AM on August 3 [6 favorites]

TFG has apparently agreed to a debate for Sept 4 in Pennsylvania.
posted by St. Oops at 1:30 AM on August 3 [4 favorites]

Per CNN live update, it’s not yet clear whether the Harris campaign has agreed, or even been consulted.

It sounds like Trump just wanted to change it to a more friendly venue and hosts (Fox) and wanted a live audience so he can have some friendly hooting and hollering when he spews his word salad.

I wouldn’t put it past him to just “agree” unilaterally to the new debate without consulting the Harris campaign at all, in an attempt to force Harris to accommodate the change.
posted by darkstar at 2:17 AM on August 3 [10 favorites]

From the CNN live update above: Trump said: “The FoxNews Debate will be held in the Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, at a site in an area to be determined. The Moderators of the Debate will be Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum, and the Rules will be similar to the Rules of my Debate with Sleepy Joe, who has been treated horribly by his Party – BUT WITH A FULL ARENA AUDIENCE!….”

Narrator: Only one of the potential debaters is currently attracting A FULL ARENA AUDIENCE.

Wonder what Trump's excuse is going to be when Kamala Harris accepts the invitation.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:37 AM on August 3 [2 favorites]

TFG has apparently agreed to a debate for Sept 4 in Pennsylvania.

Per CNN live update, it’s not yet clear whether the Harris campaign has agreed, or even been consulted.

yeah the framing of "agreed to" implies this was an offer from Harris' team. that was the phrasing trump himself used. the more likely scenario is his team came up with this idea with fox. and like the coward he is cannot face his opponent in a setting that doesn't involve his adulating cheering throng
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 2:48 AM on August 3 [6 favorites]

Idea:

and like the coward he is cannot face his opponent in a setting that doesn't involve his adulating cheering throng

==

Only one of the potential debaters is currently attracting A FULL ARENA AUDIENCE.

....So hear me out: Harris accepts, but on one condition - tickets to be in this "full arena audience" should be opened up to EVERYONE. TFG's followers would possibly be in the minority, and about half the audience would be booing to drown out the cheers of his supporters. Or there's other foment in the audience to the point that a) TFG drops out like he did at the NABJ conference, or b) they have to have a third debate.

Or, even better - Harris accepts, on the condition that tickets to be in this audience are opened to everyone - AND it is a town-hall format, with people in the audience directly asking the questions. And then you encourage members of the NABJ, E. Jean Carroll, and Stormy Daniels to attend and come prepared with questions.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:28 AM on August 3 [5 favorites]

As a gay male who donated to Buttigieg's campaign years back, I can assure you that Buttigieg will not be picked. There is no way the majority of the population in swing states will vote for a woman of color and a gay man. Especially a gay man, no matter how polite he is on FOX NEWS. It's just not happening.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:30 AM on August 3 [7 favorites]

So we are now at “Okay, so he has probably done war crimes… BUT”

I mean Buttigieg collected paychecks in 2014 for driving around and killing Afghans. If we're taking bets on who is most likely to have war crimes in their past my money is on him.

Or Kelly. You don't get to be an astronaut without being down for some imperialism.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 4:08 AM on August 3 [1 favorite]

(Note I will happily vote for either one or any other VP Harris chooses)
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 4:17 AM on August 3

This did crack me up - @uhshanti: Josh Shapiro saying that “belligerent Arabs” would shoot Arafat, only for Rabin to be assassinated by a Kahanist two years later. classic poli sci major behavior

/I can laugh at this this was an adjacent academic discipline for me

(ETA: the comparison is reminding me of who then is said to have killed Arafat as well. )
posted by cendawanita at 4:59 AM on August 3 [6 favorites]

OK, I'm convinced now, Shapiro would be a terrible choice.
I hope the Harris team can see this.
posted by mumimor at 5:11 AM on August 3 [5 favorites]

Not to abuse the edit window: I am not only thinking about the young people and the Muslim Americans who must rightly be appalled. I'm thinking that an American person with his outspoken, uninformed opinions should never be let loose in international diplomacy.
posted by mumimor at 5:13 AM on August 3 [4 favorites]

Sketchy Pyramid Scheme Video Emerges of Former Astronaut Being Considered for VP

While we've been talking about policy and personality differences between the VP candidates, this is the stuff one hopes the vetting team is turning up. Bad real estate deals, secret second families, all the things that Tabloid America will care about far more than someone's position on Medicare or school lunches.
posted by mittens at 5:26 AM on August 3 [3 favorites]

given the slate of potential vp picks that harris has telegraphed it’s truly a who is the least bad kind of thing. i guess walz is the least bad? so in hope it’s him. shapiro would signal she doesn’t give a damn about ending the slaughter, buttigieg is a genuinely off putting guy, like he’s the jd vance of the democrats (i’m not sure how others can’t see this about him but alas), kelly is a decently liberal senator in a state that tends to elect psychopaths so maybe don’t tip the balance, beshear? he’s too conservative, pritzker too rich, so i guess it’s walz. but this is a world built on disappointment, so count on it being shapiro or buttigieg
posted by dis_integration at 5:55 AM on August 3 [7 favorites]

Metafilter: this is a world built on disappointment
posted by mmoncur at 6:10 AM on August 3 [15 favorites]

Also he's spoken to the Pope from space!

Wow, Catholic Church schisms have really changed over the centuries.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:36 AM on August 3 [33 favorites]

Harris insiders have said, to various outlets, that she is looking for a "governing partner"--read into those tea leaves what you will.
posted by box at 6:43 AM on August 3 [2 favorites]

given the slate of potential vp picks that harris has telegraphed it’s truly a who is the least bad kind of thing.

That's what you get when your only options are humans.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:55 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]

That's what you get when your only options are humans.

No, no, Buttigieg is still in the running.
posted by mittens at 6:58 AM on August 3 [10 favorites]

Harris insiders have said, to various outlets, that she is looking for a "governing partner"--read into those tea leaves what you will.

_G_overning _p_artner. Think about it. G is the 7th letter of the alphabet. P is the 16th. 7+16=23. *W* is the 23rd letter of the alphabet. It's Walz.
posted by mazola at 6:59 AM on August 3 [24 favorites]

_G_overning _p_artner. Think about it.

_GO-verning _P_artner. GOP. She’s picking Vance.
posted by donatella at 7:05 AM on August 3 [10 favorites]

Vance has done a lot to shore up Democratic support TBH.
posted by mazola at 7:07 AM on August 3 [22 favorites]

I cannot imagine a clearer indication that the VP pick should definitely not be Shapiro than the NYT insisting it's the obvious correct choice.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:13 AM on August 3 [20 favorites]

Vermin Supreme sits by the phone, waiting patiently.
posted by delfin at 7:14 AM on August 3 [22 favorites]

any word on whether merrick garland has cleared his weekend schedule?
posted by logicpunk at 7:21 AM on August 3

Harris insiders have said, to various outlets, that she is looking for a "governing partner"--read into those tea leaves what you will.
--
_G_overning _p_artner. Think about it. G is the 7th letter of the alphabet. P is the 16th. 7+16=23. *W* is the 23rd letter of the alphabet. It's Walz.
--
_GO-verning _P_artner. GOP. She’s picking Vance.

You're both wrong....

The "G" and the "P" clearly refer to the books of Genesis and Proverbs. G is the 7th letter of the alphabet and P is the 16th.

Genesis 7:16 reads: "And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in." It's referring to the moment in the story of Noah when Noah's family shuts themselves up in the ark, clearly suggesting that climate change policy will be a key part of what Harris expects her vice president to oversee. Or - perhaps it is someone who largely keeps to themselves save for a small group of friends.

Proverbs 7:16 reads: "I have covered my bed with colored linens from Egypt." Clearly this means that Harris is looking for someone who's had a particular focus on the textile industry - or perhaps someone with an appreciation for fine textiles.

So it is obvious: Kamala Harris' VP pick will be Jeffrey "The Dude" Lebowski.

This is very much akin to the method my own fifth-great-grandfather attempted to predict the Second Coming. He made a few mistakes, and the family's had some time to perfect the technique. I stand by it. (Nods)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:36 AM on August 3 [18 favorites]

the NYT insisting it's the obvious correct choice
No, "the NYT" is not insisting that. That is a guest essay by Mark Penn, former Bill Clinton pollster/stooge.

(Guest Essays used to be called Op-eds, but they changed the named name because people didn't understand the difference between op-eds and editorials. I guess some folks still have trouble with the concept.)
posted by neroli at 7:50 AM on August 3 [12 favorites]

I think the question about Shapiro is how likely Harris is to carry PA with vs. without him with a side of potentially losing somewhere else.

I don't think the campaign needs Walz to take MN but he's such a common template for a mid-western dad and/or teacher that his appeal would be a LOT wider. I'm a life-long Minnesotan and Walz reminds me of my dad, my wife's dad, and several teachers all in positive ways. For me, at least, that comes with the feeling that while "cheerful" is his default demeanor it conceals a steel core of strength and safety. In terms of being a governing partner I think Walz is the clear choice.

My kid was in kindergarten last year and I remember how much I stressed out about keeping track of and having a ticket for lunch each day and the hassle of having to get a check from my mom and buying another two weeks worth of tickets. I wasn't looking forward to having to manage the electronic accounts they used for school lunch these days. But now they just feed everyone. I can't imagine how relieving that is for families where the cost is a burden because it's a surprisingly huge relief for me. I feel that impact directly and really appreciate it. We didn't just legalize weed but we're expunging most people's weed related convictions and arrests. MN Dems passed a TON of stuff like that.
posted by VTX at 8:00 AM on August 3 [27 favorites]

I guess some folks still have trouble with the concept

...of jokes.

It's seldom a great use of time to reply to an obvious quip with condescending explanations of basic facts.

But if you want me to revise it into something you can take literally, just imagine I had said "the NYT presenting takes saying Shapiro is the obvious choice."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:01 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]

the NYT insisting it's the obvious correct choice
No, "the NYT" is not insisting that. That is a guest essay by Mark Penn, former Bill Clinton pollster/stooge.

Do you think the NYT is like hey mark Penn, famous for being wrong about everything, would you might writing 700 words about whatever you want or was like, hey mark, buddy, can you write 700 words ok how Josh Shapiro rules and we’ll edit and put our stamp on it?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:07 AM on August 3 [6 favorites]

Yes. It's a choice.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:09 AM on August 3 [1 favorite]

Yes, and I agree it was a very shitty choice. But I do think that if you're engaged in media critique, even in a jokey way, it helps to be accurate about who's saying what. Too many people here act like the NYT is some blog, all written by one dude.
posted by neroli at 8:11 AM on August 3 [7 favorites]

While it is made up of individual voices, the NYT has a pretty established composite voice that heavily favors unhelpful nitpicking, shit-stirring, and dubious advice toward the Democratic Party, as well as hand waving and normalization of the extremist side of the GOP.

If you placed even money bets on every NYT opinion piece, internally or externally sourced, being a crappy faux-centrist take that only helps the right, you'd win a lot of money very quickly.

This is not a marginal or minority opinion, at least not in these parts.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:17 AM on August 3 [31 favorites]

I think it can both be true that it's best practice to label who actually wrote a thing, and that being rude about an obvious jokey synechdoche in another comment is suboptimal. *begin 8 comment derail about whether synechdoche is the correct term to use here*

Instead of sniping back and forth, let's all focus our positive energy on hoping Jimmy Carter can meet his next goal:

“I’m only trying to make it to vote for Kamala Harris,” Carter told his son Chip this week, according to his grandson Jason Carter.

Jimmy Carter’s 100th birthday is Oct. 1 and the possibility that he might reach the century mark is stunning, given that when he entered hospice care in February 2023 his physicians indicated he might have only days to live.

(Article by Greg Bluestein in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution)

posted by the primroses were over at 8:46 AM on August 3 [44 favorites]

Ryan Grim: Unpopular opinion perhaps but if Dems are ever going to break with their current Israel policy Shapiro, with his apparent service with the IDF, would be the kind of Democrat who could do it...The evidence is that he’s the kind of liberal Zionist who hates AIPAC and Netanyahu but supports the idea of Israel. That’s most American Jews and most Americans. But the ideal idea of Israel is clashing so hard with its reality that it is forcing a reckoning and Shapiro is the kind of politician who can actually stand up to AIPAC, is the argument. And I think it’s a strong one.

I know this is 11 dimensional chess shit but if public opinion continues to shift against Israel then there could be a 'only nixon could go to china' type shit down the line.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:52 AM on August 3 [4 favorites]

Shapiro is the kind of politician who can actually stand up to AIPAC, is the argument. And I think it’s a strong one.

that was sort of what I thought yesterday. And then I read his comment on Netanyahu's speech at the UN.
Nope
posted by mumimor at 9:03 AM on August 3 [13 favorites]

Getting slightly off the current topic for a bit, a funny skeet from yesterday:

Fox brains trust: how can we defeat her?

Jesse Watters: What if we tell the nation she eats food
posted by May Kasahara at 9:13 AM on August 3 [6 favorites]

Mrs. W and I went to Palm Coast (FL) to a needlepoint store to get some thread she needed. At two different intersections, we saw a group with Harris signs waving at cars. Palm Coast is a relatively wealthy area- I would have thought of it as Trump country. It gave me an endorphin rush of optimism.
posted by wittgenstein at 9:50 AM on August 3 [21 favorites]

“I’m only trying to make it to vote for Kamala Harris,” Carter told his son Chip this week,

my mom was almost ninety when she died back in early 2021, but she wasn't hanging on to vote for anybody. Her thing was a very explicitly stated, "I'm not going anywhere until I see with my own eyes that Trump is no longer President."

So she was there (watching TV being about the only left she could do) watching first the election in November 2020, then all the bullshit shenanigans from Trump and co as the results came in, then the Jan-6 madness, and finally, on January 20th, Biden's inauguration.

At which point she said to me, "I guess it's time we took a look at that paperwork."

The paperwork in question being the M.A.I.D. (medically assisted dying) stuff that she'd asked me to look into as she had been suffering for a long time through an overall health meltdown (driven primarily by bad arthritis, the drugs for which eventually did her kidneys in ... and so on).

Less than two weeks later, she was dead. And worth noting, she had a smile on her face as she (my favourite death euphemism) "went on ahead".
posted by philip-random at 9:58 AM on August 3 [46 favorites]

Via X-Twitter: Harris campaign responds to Trump backing out of Sep 10 debate
posted by darkstar at 10:06 AM on August 3 [34 favorites]

Love it. He's "running scared to Fox". He's weird, he's scared, he's being defined perfectly. Exactly right, exactly right.
posted by ishmael at 10:22 AM on August 3 [10 favorites]

- "TFG has apparently agreed to a debate for Sept 4 in Pennsylvania"
by making a unilateral announcement of his demands, including Fox sponsorship & moderation, "WITH A FULL ARENA AUDIENCE!"

-- "So hear me out: Harris accepts, but on one condition - tickets to be in this "full arena audience" should be opened up to EVERYONE"

Harris doesn't "accept" this nonsense, counteroffers: "Tonight, PBS affiliate studio, moderated by whoever's on shift."

Who in their right mind wants to stand on a stage in front of a crowd, in Pennsylvania, with the guy so recently shot at, in Pennsylvania.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:28 AM on August 3 [7 favorites]

"running scared to Fox"

Daaamn...
posted by Reverend John at 10:34 AM on August 3 [4 favorites]

Harris doesn't "accept" this nonsense, counteroffers: "Tonight, PBS affiliate studio, moderated by whoever's on shift."

yeah, the more the event resembles a WWF event, the more it plays to The Fucking Guy.

"Donald, why can't you just talk to me person to person with no kayfabe distractions. All these demands you're making are just weird."
posted by philip-random at 10:35 AM on August 3 [5 favorites]

"It's time"
posted by cashman at 10:41 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]

Weren’t his comments on Netenyahu’s speech at the UN from 2011? A lot has happened in the last 13 years.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:44 AM on August 3 [2 favorites]

Harris campaign responds to Trump backing out of Sep 10 debate

Also in meme form .
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:56 AM on August 3 [16 favorites]

Weren’t his comments on Netenyahu’s speech at the UN from 2011? A lot has happened in the last 13 years.

It seems that when one is invested in scoring points in a political argument, time begins to cease to exist as a factor.
posted by philip-random at 11:10 AM on August 3 [9 favorites]

Also in meme form

I love that this is a real, official release from the campaign.
posted by cashman at 11:22 AM on August 3 [11 favorites]

He keeps this up, Jim Acosta will be the next moderator suggestion — Trump's not still AFRAID of Acosta, right?
(CNN's Acosta is not an actual suggestion for this thankless gig; he's done more than enough heavy lifting)

"governing partner" makes a stronger case for Walz? [I think? (I hope?)] There's a track record of successful partnerships, from Walz's years in the military, in Congress (at that time, he was the highest-ranking enlisted soldier in the history of Congress, btw) and in the teaching profession.

I think the Trump announcement was to try to hook headlines like always, and that more Democrats could have their reps disclose to the press how they've cleared the schedule for Tuesday, and YES, there are sources close to the politicians, or even the pols themselves, available to talk about it today/tomorrow/Monday.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:24 AM on August 3 [2 favorites]

Weren’t his comments on Netenyahu’s speech at the UN from 2011? A lot has happened in the last 13 years.

If this is true, that does make a tiny bit of a difference for me. BUT Netenyahu is like Trump before Trump: he is a lying liar who lies even when it doesn't make any sense, he is corrupt beyond your wildest imagination and he has been for genocide for his entire political career. Ask the Israeli opposition.
Right now, Netenyahu is even in the same situation as Trump: if he is voted out, he will go to jail.
And we knew that in 2011. "We" meaning people who are positively engaged in the future of Israel and who are against the Hamas rule in Gaza.
posted by mumimor at 11:59 AM on August 3 [9 favorites]

I sincerely hope the plan for the use of time on September 10th is that it now becomes a town hall where people can actually ask questions.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 1:45 PM on August 3 [4 favorites]

The body of the Harris response:

"Donald Trump is running scared and trying to back out of the debate he already agreed to and running straight to Fox News to bail him out. Не needs to stop playing games and show up to the debate he already committed to on Sept 10.
The Vice President will be there one way or the other to take the opportunity to speak to a prime time national audience.

We're happy to discuss further debates after the one both campaigns have already agreed to.
Mr. Anytime, anywhere, anyplace should have no problem with that unless he's too scared to show up on the 10th

Gauntlet dropped!
posted by Mitheral at 2:14 PM on August 3 [24 favorites]

Weren’t his comments on Netenyahu’s speech at the UN from 2011? A lot has happened in the last 13 years.

Yes, the date is written at the top of my comment.

It seems that when one is invested in scoring points in a political argument, time begins to cease to exist as a factor.

Can you point me to more recent evidence showing that he has fundamentally changed his position?
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 3:03 PM on August 3 [4 favorites]

Oh, great: Kamala Harris’ husband Doug Emhoff admits to cheating on first wife after bombshell report he impregnated nanny. Note: Kamala knew, the baby wasn't kept.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:12 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

Harris’s husband Doug Emhoff acknowledged Saturday in a statement to CNN that he had an affair during his first marriage after the alleged details of the relationship were published by a British tabloid. The statement comes after the Daily Mail reported that Emhoff had a relationship with one of his then-young daughter’s teachers, which resulted in the end of his first marriage.

The relationship and the circumstances around it were known four years ago to Joe Biden’s vetting committee as Harris was herself going through the running mate process before being picked for the ticket, a person familiar with the conversations told CNN. The person also said that Emhoff had told Harris about the affair well before they got married.

The Daily Mail reported that the woman became pregnant and that, according to a close friend, she “did not keep the child.” (Yahoo News link.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:21 PM on August 3 [1 favorite]

Who cares.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:42 PM on August 3 [45 favorites]

GOP strategists frantically trying to work out how to make Donald “Adultery is not a sin” Trump look like the superior candidate on the issue of marital fidelity.
posted by mbrubeck at 3:49 PM on August 3 [15 favorites]

Can you point me to more recent evidence showing that he has fundamentally changed his position?

I'm hoping they don't pick him, but in case it does end up being him: in that video interview linked well above, he does at least say that Netanyahu has been "a horrible leader for Israel over many, many years" and that he's "someone who's leading Israel down a dangerous and destructive path." It's not enough, obviously, but it does represent a shift away from that 2011 tweet. (By comparison, I can't remember which old election debate had both candidates bending over backwards to affirm their love of their "friend Bibi" as though the electorate were clamoring for that. In my experience around some people who have reflexive [over-]protective feelings toward Israel, it seemed like it wasn't until 2017 that a lot of middle-of-the-road Democrats could finally start recognizing Netanyahu as the Trump-like evil thing he's always been, and I wonder if that might be the same for Shapiro. But hopefully this'll be moot and he won't be the VP pick.)
posted by nobody at 3:56 PM on August 3 [8 favorites]

Vance says he’s called weird because Harris’ campaign is run by ‘social media interns bullied in school’
posted by needled at 4:01 PM on August 3 [5 favorites]

Per WaPo, Walz and Shapiro are both traveling to DC tomorrow for interviews to be Kamala's VP.
posted by cashman at 4:05 PM on August 3 [4 favorites]

Vance says he’s called weird because Harris’ campaign is run by ‘social media interns bullied in school’

Jocks vs. nerds is the real political divide, according to something deep in the psyche of the US electorate.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:16 PM on August 3 [8 favorites]

Well I certainly won’t be voting for Doug Emhoff for president after this! Call me back when Harris has five kids from three different partners and cascading cheating.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:17 PM on August 3 [25 favorites]

Yeah, that Doug Emhoff had an affair a whole marriage ago is not really much of a bombshell scandal, particularly in light of the fact that both his ex and his children seem to have made their peace with his imperfections. If Emhoff himself were running for office, it might be worth looking at how it reflects his character, but as things stand, it's pretty weak tea.
posted by jackbishop at 4:20 PM on August 3 [5 favorites]

Jocks vs. nerds is the real political divide, according to something deep in the psyche of the US electorate.

Though in actual modernity, as evidenced even in JD Vance's career being incubated by Silicon Valley, the political dynamic is nerds versus the world.
posted by kensington314 at 4:23 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]

People have affairs. At least Emhoff isn't a weirdo who fucks the furniture.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:43 PM on August 3 [9 favorites]

"Harris married a man who, years before they met, cheated on someone else altogether" isn't much of a punch from anybody, and certainly not from a serial rapist and a davenport enthusiast.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:47 PM on August 3 [18 favorites]

Vance says he’s called weird because Harris’ campaign is run by ‘social media interns bullied in school’

so what you're saying, Vance, is you were a fucking bully back in school. Just to be clear.
posted by philip-random at 4:49 PM on August 3 [15 favorites]

I don't care, you don't care, and I posted anyway because the GOP cannot campaign on improving the lives of voters and will likely use it. The Daily Mail identifies Emhoff's affair partner, a woman described in classic house style as "Ella’s nanny at the time and had begun working as a teaching assistant at the Willows and eventually became a teacher there".

Nanny -> teaching assistant -> teacher.

CNN, in reporting on the Mail story, and publishing Emhoff's brief statement "provided exclusively to CNN," has "teacher." If the Mail's sources (which mention a child, born in 2009) have the right trajectory, the optics are not great for Emhoff, CNN, or -- and yes, right, it's unfair -- Harris:

"During my first marriage, Kerstin and I went through some tough times on account of my actions. I took responsibility, and in the years since, we worked through things as a family and have come out stronger on the other side," Emhoff said.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:55 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

Oh, great: Kamala Harris’ husband Doug Emhoff admits to cheating on first wife after bombshell report he impregnated nanny. Note: Kamala knew, the baby wasn't kept.

Big deal, Trump was convicted on 34 counts of campaign fraud for paying hush money to a porn star he cheated on his 3rd wife with prior to being elected.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:00 PM on August 3 [16 favorites]

That is compelling to *you* not to Republican voters, who have already heard an earful about Harris's professional missteps as The Border Czar and The Mysterious Incognito Black Lady. Why doesn't the WWE just throw her out, and get a new villain, you ask...
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:07 PM on August 3

"So what? I'm not voting for Emhoff. But if you want to talk about adultery, wait till you hear about this guy..."
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:07 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]

Also we already knew his previous marriage had problems, on account of the divorce.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:08 PM on August 3 [13 favorites]

gawd they really are grasping at straws. "she laughs", "she's a gossip", "her husband had an affair prior to meeting Harris" like all of this shit is basically flop sweat in real time. they got nothing.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:11 PM on August 3 [12 favorites]

"Doug and I decided to end our marriage for a variety of reasons, many years ago,” Kerstin Emhoff said in a statement Saturday. “He is a great father to our kids, continues to be a great friend to me and I am really proud of the warm and supportive blended family Doug, Kamala, and I have built together."
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:14 PM on August 3 [16 favorites]

I mean, the part that's gross is that she was the nanny; that's abusive, regardless of whether it's also cheating. But it's still not as if the candidate herself was coercing employees into sex.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:18 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

Yeah, it sounds like Emhoff is at least a creep, possibly much, much worse. But he isn't running for president. So.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:32 PM on August 3 [3 favorites]

meanwhile there's a rapist who is running for president

like i dont think these guys really wanna play the "who's the biggest creep" game here
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:42 PM on August 3 [10 favorites]

Yeah, I don’t see people looking at this and deciding “well, I guess I’m voting for Trump then.”
posted by azpenguin at 5:52 PM on August 3 [3 favorites]

the part that's gross is that she was the nanny

She is a teacher, not a nanny. If there are going to be allegations of coercion, please cite evidence; it matters.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:53 PM on August 3 [9 favorites]

it sounds like Emhoff is at least a creep, possibly much, much worse

Here's something amazing you may not be aware of -- people can learn from their mistakes, make changes in themselves based on past actions and grow. I know that's a shock to some people.

He did a possibly-creepy thing FIFTEEN YEARS AGO does not make him "at least a creep" -- it makes him a guy who did a thing he should not have done. Based on what everyone available says about him -- including his ex-wife -- I'd be hard pressed to say that he's the same guy he was when he got a divorce.

One of the things I most dislike about modern discourse is that you're forever judged and categorized in the public mindset by the worst thing you ever did, regardless of when or how tht thing occurred.
posted by anastasiav at 5:59 PM on August 3 [40 favorites]

If true, that puts him in the company of Robin Williams and Arnold Schwartzenegger. Not great but, as stated and (as we all seemed to agree with Robin Williams): who cares.
posted by argybarg at 6:00 PM on August 3 [3 favorites]

I honestly do think that leaving this year's pick to the side, people in both parties have been taking a bad approach towards picking VP candidates.

The VP candidate is your Presidential candidate in 8 years.

But the focus seems to be on picking a person who is mild enough that no one cares much and can maybe bring in their home state.

Then 8 years later you get Bush Sr or Gore running and wonder how it went wrong.

Ideally the VP pick should be younger than the Presidential pick by at least 8 years and be the kind of up and comer you want to be demoing as your future President for the next 8 years.
posted by sotonohito at 6:09 PM on August 3 [5 favorites]

How do you know that’s the focus? And what candidate are you envisioning?
posted by argybarg at 6:12 PM on August 3 [1 favorite]

But the focus seems to be on picking a person who is mild enough that no one cares much
Maybe that's the focus of some people here? But we don't actually know, so.
posted by Glinn at 6:15 PM on August 3

I mean. AOC.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:16 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]

Well, if he leveraged a job over her, that's pretty bad. I don't know that that's what happened, and I don't care to know more, because once again, he isn't even the candidate. This is more Hunter Biden type bullshit.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:17 PM on August 3 [12 favorites]

The VP candidate is your Presidential candidate in 8 years.

Except for the fact that this is not accurate for the previous Republican president, the previous Democratic president or the Republican president before that.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:31 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

AOC would excite a lot of people here and alienate a lot of other voters, including many Democrats.
posted by argybarg at 6:34 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

Sen. Bernie Sanders: Gov. Tim Walz would ‘speak up’ for working-class families as VP (MPR News) He spoke with MPR News host Tom Crann before his scheduled events, sharing that he spoke with Gov. Tim Walz a few days earlier and said he is “very impressed” and that Walz “understands the needs of working families.” Sanders added that he hopes Vice President Kamala Harris “selects a running mate who will speak up and take on powerful corporate interest — and I think Tim Walz is somebody who could do that.”

posted by Iris Gambol at 6:38 PM on August 3 [16 favorites]

I heard that Bernie piece earlier and he's annoying as hell because he still won't endorse Kamala yet and didn't endorse Walz either, when asked specifically in that interview if he did. Man stop playin.
posted by cashman at 6:45 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]

One of the things I most dislike about modern discourse is that you're forever judged and categorized in the public mindset by the worst thing you ever did, regardless of when or how tht thing occurred.

I mean, i'm not interested in doing that if people acknowledge the ways in which they fucked up. Has Emhoff apologized for taking advantage of an employee, or only for cheating on his wife?

She is a teacher, not a nanny. If there are going to be allegations of coercion, please cite evidence; it matters.

Per Iris Gambol's comment, which links the Guardian reporting, she was Ella's nanny at the time and later became a teacher.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:47 PM on August 3

I heard that Bernie piece earlier and he's annoying as hell because he still won't endorse Kamala yet and didn't endorse Walz either, when asked specifically in that interview if he did. Man stop playin.

Some of us call this "being principled" rather than "playin".
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:48 PM on August 3

Looks like Mark Kelly will be interviewing tomorrow in person as well.

Vice President Harris will interview at least three of the finalists to serve as her running mate Sunday in Washington as she moves closer to making her choice, according to multiple people familiar with her plans.

Harris will meet with Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz, Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro and Arizona Sen. Mark Kelly, the people said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential deliberations.

There's a good bit of information, some already known, about the process.

Harris spent Saturday at her residence at the Naval Observatory in Washington, where lawyers, led by Eric Holder, the former attorney general, gave presentations on the finalists based on deep examinations of their backgrounds, experience and potential vulnerabilities, a person familiar with the process said. Holder and a team of lawyers at Covington & Burling oversaw the vetting of the officials in contention on an extremely compressed timeline.

...

As Harris wraps up her process, the finalists have had to change their schedules to accommodate interviews. Walz had originally planned to campaign for Harris in New Hampshire on Sunday before canceling the appearance. Teddy Tschann, a spokesman for the governor, said in a statement that Walz’s “schedule has changed” without providing additional information.

Buttigieg, who pulled out of an official stop in Indiana on Friday, attended a fundraiser for Harris in Holderness, N.H., hosted by Gary Hirshberg, the co-founder of Stonyfield Farms, the yogurt maker and dairy company. The fundraiser raised more than $800,000, according to a person familiar who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share financial information.

Good to see Pete out here puttin in work. Still hoping it's Walz or him or Kelly or even Beshear.
posted by cashman at 6:49 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

adrienneleigh, the Daily Mail has the story, not the Guardian -- hence the "If the Mail's sources [...] have the right trajectory, the optics are not great."
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:54 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

Some of us call this "being principled" rather than "playin".

He's definitely playing some game where he thinks his endorsement is golden and must be pried from him by begging. He's gone on multiple shows and just dances around the topic. Like I get that he's a politician and that's how politicians often do things. By talking in circles and saying nothing and just filling the space with pseudo-answers or non answers. If he wants to not endorse or not endorse yet, he can just say that. But it just irks me when politicians do that. And especially 95 or whatever days before we're trying to like, you know, stave off this whole right wing dictatorship. Yeah, he's playin in that specific context.
posted by cashman at 6:54 PM on August 3 [6 favorites]

AOC would excite a lot of people here and alienate a lot of other voters, including many Democrats.

Hopefully, by the time she's ready to run (and if she wants to do it), the Overton window will have shifted more forcefully in the Progressive direction. This Handmaid's Tale cosplay that masquerades as an ideology is getting tiresome.
posted by ishmael at 7:01 PM on August 3 [5 favorites]

Er, whoops. Sorry, yeah, the Daily Mail is a much less reliable source than the Guardian, idk what i was thinking. In any case, he's not the candidate, and while i do think there are circumstances where people should be held to account for staying married to shitheads (e.g., Alice Munro, who's been discussed recently), those circumstances do not include "acted like a creep before you even met them, and doesn't seem to have kept acting like a creep afterward". Emhoff seems like a perfectly decent guy except the whole Zionism thing. And there are plenty of things to hate Harris for all on her own, her husband doesn't really signify.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:02 PM on August 3 [3 favorites]

Hopefully, by the time she's ready to run (and if she wants to do it), the Overton window will have shifted more forcefully in the Progressive direction.

Every slice of the political spectrum believes their slice just might take over some day and become the lasting majority view. Because that would make life so easy compared to being a permanent 20% of the electorate, having to settle for being just a part of a coalition that, itself, has to fight for survival.

It will never happen, not for any of the slices.
posted by argybarg at 7:06 PM on August 3 [1 favorite]

Every slice of the political spectrum believes their slice just might take over some day and become the lasting majority view.

Don't want to start a derail, but AOC has been completely mischaracterized by right-wing media campaigns. She actually has reached across the aisle and made pragmatic decisions, and she is hyper-competent besides. The reason that she only appeals to a slice of the electorate is the result of years of concerted propaganda, not from who she is as a politician.
posted by ishmael at 7:14 PM on August 3 [28 favorites]

And I don’t say this coolly — it sucks to be in the permanent minority. But everyone is. I care too much about getting the really important issues right to waste time on dreaming that Perfectly Progressive is going to establish permanent rule — it never is. We have this world, the one we live in, and shit is too important for fantasizing.
posted by argybarg at 7:15 PM on August 3 [1 favorite]

We have this world, the one we live in, and shit is too important for fantasizing.

I think it's also important to acknowledge that the insane posture of the right-wing is not set in stone. It's the result of several decades of effort.

Just as the right wing did not accept the political progress of the civil rights movement and the new deal, we do not have to accept that right/center-right will always be the default "centrist" position.
posted by ishmael at 7:20 PM on August 3 [20 favorites]

where he thinks his endorsement is golden

I don't believe Bernie's endorsement carries much weight, outside New England. Maybe even inside. It doesn't matter much anymore, and to many he's a comical figure, now.
posted by Rash at 7:23 PM on August 3

Crowd size at Trump's rally was so much smaller than at Harris's at the same venue, that even Trump was complaining about it. Photo.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:36 PM on August 3 [16 favorites]

we do not have to accept that right/center-right will always be the default "centrist" position.

To the extent that it is (and I'm not sure I agree that it is), the only counter is to actively and eagerly participate in a broad-enough coalition.

That means not telegraphing disgust when dealing with your coalition partners; not treating them as subject for "education" or conversion; not lingering over resentments; and not treating places like MetaFilter as safe havens in which to heap up really outsized language about how disgusting your coalition partners are.

The dream of purging the "centrist" or "corporatist" or whatever elements of the Democratic Party must die. Now. Hanging on to that dream is doing great practical harm.

Stop drawing bright lines that define everyone outside your 15-20% of the electorate as unacceptable. Find ways to work with people you profoundly disagree with one some issues. Do that with enthusiasm, and do that in non-election years.

If you want to do practical good through politics, I believe that is the only way.
posted by argybarg at 7:47 PM on August 3 [28 favorites]

VP pick:

Slight preference for Walz over Kelly or Beshear. But any of them would be fine.

Prtizker is okay.

Not Shapiro.

Give Buttigieg a lead role in selling the Dems, before and after the election. Man is a 7th Dan ninja at slicing clean through Repub drivel and shitfuckery, without breaking sweat and with a smile on his face.

He is also young (42) and has plenty of time on his side to become more experienced, and more established and known, and more acceptable to those not so comfortable yet with his sexuality.

Don't burn him early, Dems.
posted by Pouteria at 7:51 PM on August 3 [7 favorites]

How do you all think she should make the announcement? Interview? Social Media post? Rally reveal? Some other way? (I'm sure jokey answers will come but I'm interested in what people actually think might be a good method with some kind of advantage. All I know is I don't think I want it to happen on Twitter after what Musk is doing with suspending pro-Harris accounts.)
posted by cashman at 8:04 PM on August 3 [1 favorite]

Stop drawing bright lines that define everyone outside your 15-20% of the electorate as unacceptable.

I realize that you're not talking to me specifically, but I don't think that's the case (that everyone outside a narrow slice is unacceptable) . Hence my support for a candidate like Tim Walz, who has broad-based appeal.

We started on this tangent because someone mentioned AOC as candidate, the immediate reaction was that she is a candidate who only appeals to a narrow slice of voters. She is currently being defined with bright red lines by a relentless right-wing media machine, not who she actually is, and I for one, reject that definition.
posted by ishmael at 8:08 PM on August 3 [15 favorites]

Emhoff acknowledged Saturday in a statement to CNN that he had an affair during his first marriage

I don't know if people are taking this seriously enough. Imagine the impact this could have on White House Christmas decorations! To say nothing of plans to renovate the Rose Garden! At least with Melania we'd know we have a First Lady who really care-- hang on, I'm getting an update
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 8:09 PM on August 3 [8 favorites]

I think "AOC [and therefore progressive politics] would be broadly popular if she/it could just get a fair hearing" is a pleasant fiction that we should do without.

I like AOC a lot; she hits my ideological pleasure centers when she speaks. I also agree that she has been effective, especially in reaching out to a broader coalition, therefore making her a very powerful figure in the Democratic party.

I think she does better work within that niche in which she reaches out from her progressive bona fides to make coalition partners. But trying to make a broadly-liked figurehead out of her would not work.
posted by argybarg at 8:19 PM on August 3 [3 favorites]

I think "AOC [and therefore progressive politics] would be broadly popular if she/it could just get a fair hearing" is a pleasant fiction that we should do without.

I heartily disagree with the sentiment that progressive values can't be broadly popular.

Part of the reason why Tim Walz is popular is because of his delivery. He is fully expressing progressive values, but just in a way that a lot of Americans can understand.

His identity also helps a lot, and gives people who might have an underlying cultural prejudice the permission structure to hear those ideas in the first place, and so he does indeed reach people.

AOC just doesn't get the same benefit of a doubt that Tim Walz does.
posted by ishmael at 8:31 PM on August 3 [17 favorites]

I heartily disagree with the sentiment that progressive values can't be broadly popular.

Some can. Some extremely conservative values have also been maddeningly popular.

Strongly and consistently progressive politics will always be a minority slice of the electorate, as will all the other slices.
posted by argybarg at 8:35 PM on August 3 [1 favorite]

Stranger things have happened. There was a point in time when I thought a black president or gay marriage were an absolute impossibility.

Anywho. I've been generally hopeful, despite my overwhelming tendency toward cynicism. Would love to keep that rally going.
posted by ishmael at 8:47 PM on August 3 [9 favorites]

How do you all think she should make the announcement?

I would like Kermit the Frog to make the announcement. Since that's not going to happen, I would like the announcement to be anywhere but Twitter.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:49 PM on August 3 [13 favorites]

I gave this more thought. I would love it if they did an announcement video featuring an animal shelter's adoptable cats and dogs and then immediately cut to a live press conference.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:57 PM on August 3 [12 favorites]

Yes! She can start the announcement on the Dodo youtube channel. Start us off with several minutes of unlikely friendships. Cats and dogs getting married, it's just mayhem in here
posted by ishmael at 8:59 PM on August 3 [5 favorites]

Following up on some comments above -- Nixon goes to China, standing up to AIPAC, etc -- got me thinking.

If Kamala Harris wanted to face down Israel, in a way that no US president has, if you she really wanted to position the US as demanding change, how would she do that? What forces would she be up against, and what steps could she take now that would put her in the position of greatest strength to take on not only Netanyahu, but also his supporters in the US, people like Ackman and all the others whose names I don't know.

Would she be in a better position to challenge Israel with good old folksy Tim Walz standing next to her? Or Alfred McKinsey Buttiegieg making the case for her on the Sunday talk shows? Would they give her standing to talk to Israel and also to the American Jewish community and say, for the good of everyone, this has to stop.

I'm starting to think that if she picks Walz, or Kelly, or Beshear, or Buttigieg, it will signal that she's not going to make any big moves in the Middle East. Sure, she might nudge things in a slightly better direction. But if she really wants to take on the issue, and have standing on the issue, the only Vice President that makes sense is Shapiro.

Of course, she would need to get his buy in. She would need to know that he would participate and support this effort. But if she had that, it would be put her in a much much stronger position to take this on, and take it on successfully. Changing this policy isn't a simple thing. It is embedded deeply in the power structure of America. You could argue that a Jewish First Gentleman and Jewish Vice President would signal unthinking support for Israeli absolutism. But it's just as possible that having those players engaged would be necessary for a fundamental shift to be successful.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:15 PM on August 3

I'm not going to get too deep into this, but I think that the democrats, at this juncture, retreating to their comfort zone of hippie punching and telling the left that good things are impossible, that stance could easily cost Harris all momentum, and cost us the presidential election. As I see it, you have two camps of Harris voters: people who were not excited by Biden, but would have voted for him anyway; and people who were not excited by Biden, were not going to vote at all, and now are going to vote for Harris.

And that's it. Anything else is a pipe dream. Disaffected Trump voters will not vote for Harris. Haley voters will not vote for Harris. RFK voters, whoever the fuck they are, will not vote for Harris...probably...they may stay home and rub mashed potatoes in their hair for all anyone knows, but they would sooner get vaccinated than vote for Harris. Literally the only groups that will vote for Harris are people who would normally vote for a democratic candidate. One group cares about the ideological purity of the candidate they vote for, or at the very least that the candidate can draw a picture of a clock. The other, let's be real, fucking doesn't, or they wouldn't have been ready to vote for Biden.

Centrists believe that their bloc is the one that must be appeased, but nothing could be further from the month. They ARE the "vote blue no matter who" bloc they demand that everyone else should be. The people who must be appeased are the people Harris is in danger of turning off. That's not the centrists.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:17 PM on August 3 [20 favorites]

"Nothing could be further from the month" is truly my own "we meet them at the battle box." I'd like to blame my phone, but it's really late at night here, so.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:25 PM on August 3 [13 favorites]

There are plenty of people who went Obama to Trump, or Trump to Biden, or even all three. And yes, there are disaffected Republicans who can be picked off.

There are many moderate Democrats or Democrat-leaning voters who were very unenthusiastic about voting for Biden, to the point of sitting this one out, who are looking to become excited about Harris — but want to see that she’s mainstream and has reasonable ideas.

And yes, there are progressives who may want their disappointment heard if she moves to the center.

And there are different mixes in different states; it’s profoundly complex.

I think her fidelity to progressive ideals is important to you.
posted by argybarg at 10:28 PM on August 3 [7 favorites]

I think it's a pretty big mistake to throw even one iota of effort into courting "soft" Trump voters, because I just don't think there are any.

I don't think she has any particular fidelity to progressive ideals, and I think as long as the democrats don't try to lean into that as a virtue, she will win. Right now, she's radiating something like a Bill Clinton in '92 vibe. That's awesome. Play too much to the center, and I think we could find ourselves cringing under a Hillary Clinton '16 stink. I do not want that outcome, and I hope you don't either.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:34 PM on August 3 [14 favorites]

I think she should project a reasonably accurate version of who she is and, in the process, acknowledge the best and most broadly accepted ideas from the Democratic coalition.

Democrats have the advantage of having a lot of broadly accepted ideas to build on. The reasonable versions of gun control, marijuana legalization, price controls for essential meds, expanded Medicare, green energy and environmental protections in general, abortion rights, general decency and tolerance. Just the basics are fine. Even the immigration bill that the Senate killed at Trump’s request is fine — a starting point.

We should spread out all the ideas that a broad coalition can get behind, pick four or five, and explain them with passion and clarity, appealing to commonly-held values.
posted by argybarg at 10:42 PM on August 3 [5 favorites]

I think a vibes-based campaign is the way to go, for sure. But to maintain a vibes-based campaign, one must not sour the vibes.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:49 PM on August 3 [10 favorites]

I guess if Harris makes a grand display of explicitly rejecting a progressive belief and the people who believe it, that would be a mistake. I would be very surprised.

I really don’t give a shit about the VP pick, especially viewed as a symbolic swipe. I think falling out over that would be really stupid.
posted by argybarg at 10:58 PM on August 3 [3 favorites]

Yeah, you've made that clear.
posted by Gadarene at 11:15 PM on August 3 [2 favorites]

One removed. Please don't do text rage intimidation stuff here. Let people talk. If you disagree, explain why in civil terms .
posted by taz (staff) at 12:12 AM on August 4 [4 favorites]

When I was a young person, most democracies were progressive-leaning, including the US. Even conservatives held what we now understand as progressive views. It was Reagan and Thatcher who changed that, and up till recently even Democrats had to be more center-right than centrist.
But the Biden-Harris administration has brought progressive ideals back to government. I think the tide is turning, for several reasons, one being that the Republicans have overreached with Trump and project 2025. Another that the two big economic crashes and COVID-19 have shown the general populace that government can be good and regulation and safety are good functions of government.
I know there is a lot of hard right/fascist stuff going on everywhere, too. And I think those things go together: the right is turning harder right because the left is becoming mainstream.
posted by mumimor at 1:56 AM on August 4 [14 favorites]

But the Biden-Harris administration has brought progressive ideals back to government.

This is such a baffling thing to say. The Biden-Harris administration is to the right of Reagan on Israel; they're to the right of Nixon on the environment; and they're arguably to the right of Andrew Jackson on immigration.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:59 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]

This is such a baffling thing to say. The Biden-Harris administration is to the right of Reagan on Israel; they're to the right of Nixon on the environment; and they're arguably to the right of Andrew Jackson on immigration.

You are looking at that sentence out of context.

I also remember what mumimor remembers, about how even conservative politicians held some positions we would call progressive today. Reagan and the GOP really started dragging things overall far, far right in the 1980s, and did so over the past 40 years.

I'd say that Obama started the overall process of dragging things back to center - but the process has just started, which is why it still looks awfully far right to you. Say you're trying to drive from Chicago to New Orleans but you make a mistake and start heading north instead, and don't realize your mistake until you hit Green Pay, Wisconsin. It's going to take you some time to get back on track; but getting to Milwaukee would still be progress, even if you're still north of Chicago.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:55 AM on August 4 [18 favorites]

AP: VP campaign launches ‘Republicans for Harris’ in push to win over GOP voters put off by Trump.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Vice President Kamala Harris’ campaign on Sunday is launching “Republicans for Harris” as she looks to win over Republican voters put off by Donald Trump’s candidacy.

The program will be a “campaign within a campaign,” according to Harris’ team, using well-known Republicans to activate their networks, with a particular emphasis on primary voters who backed former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley. The program will kick off with events this week in Arizona, North Carolina and Pennsylvania. Republicans backing Harris will also appear at rallies with the vice president and her soon-to-be-named running mate this coming week, the campaign said.

The Harris campaign shared the details of the program first with The Associated Press before the official announcement.

Biden’s team is trying to create “a permission structure” for GOP voters who would otherwise have a difficult time voting for Harris. The effort will rely heavily on Republican-to-Republican voter contact, with the belief that the best way to get a Republican to vote for Harris is to hear directly from another Republican making the same choice.

…

The Harris campaign’s effort includes former Govs. Bill Weld of Massachusetts and Christine Todd Whitman of New Jersey, former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, former Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, and 16 former Republican members of Congress, including Kinzinger and Reps. Joe Walsh of Illinois and Susan Molinari of New York. All have been notable critics of Trump in the past.

Former Trump press secretary Stephanie Grisham is also endorsing Harris.

“I might not agree with Vice President Kamala Harris on everything, but I know that she will fight for our freedom, protect our democracy and represent America with honor and dignity on the world stage,” Grisham said in a statement.

posted by cashman at 5:30 AM on August 4 [18 favorites]

Kamalapalooza (Joseph O'Neill, NY Review of Books)
posted by box at 5:31 AM on August 4 [1 favorite]

i acknowledge we all have our own definitions of where the center is (and where it is depends on where left and right are ofc) but imho, clinton's whole raison d'etre was being the "reasonable centrist" pick, who ended up making cuts to welfare and advocating for taking "a tougher stance" on crime

for all his efforts to reach across the aisle he got newt gingrich et al at war with him and republican obstruction at nearly every turn. and that was before maga

like idk it seems the real pipe dream is the belief you can appease the right wing in america and they won't tear you apart like a pack of hyenas bc they always want more more more and they take "reaching across the aisle" as blood in the water
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:40 AM on August 4 [21 favorites]

Well, like I said, I think going after the republican vote isn't the right call; the democratic base is currently energized, but that can change fast. I'm concerned by a desire on Harris' part to "earn" the vote of republicans, who as far as I am concerned have earned the right to suck out the contents of a ziploc bag full of wet dog hair.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:57 AM on August 4 [16 favorites]

The more that Trump has the stench of loser on him, more of his fickle cultists will bail out. Abstaining from voting for Trump is almost as good as switching to Harris. All of this should be encouraged, especially in the swing states that will decide the election.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:21 AM on August 4 [22 favorites]

Nikki Haley typically pulled about 15-20% in R primaries. Even in states with closed primaries. Even after she dropped out of the race.

Kamala Harris has many, many official and unofficial affinity groups (women, Black women, Black men, Latinos, South Asians, Disabled people, white dudes, cat ladies...), and one that tries to bring some Republicans across the line can be an effective part of that.
posted by box at 6:24 AM on August 4 [15 favorites]

If the Harris Dems can pick up some disaffected Repub voters, on top of energised Dem voters, that could add up to a few extra House seats beyond what just Dem voters alone can deliver, and to holding the Senate, even increasing the seats there. Which would go a long way to helping pass legislation, and keeping the Trumpian version of the Repub party out of power.

If Harris can then show those disaffected Repubs that their 2024 vote was not wasted and gain their trust, they might be more inclined to repeat the exercise in 2028.

Politics is about building coalition support. The substantial majority of US voters seem keen to leave the toxicity and gutter brawling and government paralysis of the Trump era behind them. If Harris can offer a way out of that, there could be serious payoffs for the Dems and the country.

I smell a large bunch of votes just to the right of Dems, ripe for the picking, with the right overtures. Don't ignore them.
posted by Pouteria at 6:32 AM on August 4 [7 favorites]

We can ignore them. I'll stop after this, but to me this is like boldly marching directly into quicksand. The problem is not that courting republican voters is quixotic, although that's also true; the problem is that it may be very difficult to court republican voters without losing democratic voters to apathy and disgust, and I assure you this is a very real likelihood, even now. If Harris reads too centrist, too HRC-y, too Biden-y, we will be right back where we started.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:47 AM on August 4 [14 favorites]

Yeah, I like Biden a lot but I got tired of his "Reaching across party lines and working with his Republican friends" shtick (which hasn't worked for 20 years) really fast.
posted by mmoncur at 6:51 AM on August 4 [7 favorites]

Biden got elected, for one, and was incredibly effective at getting legislation passed; way more than Obama was.
posted by argybarg at 7:01 AM on August 4 [13 favorites]

Who do we throw under the bus for them? If it’s nobody great. If it’s not who gets to pick?
posted by Artw at 7:12 AM on August 4 [4 favorites]

Who do we throw under the bus for them?

pleasesaybillionairespleasesaybillionaires
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:14 AM on August 4 [22 favorites]

Interesting judo flip to sic the Repubs on the billionaires. You’re thinking take their thing about “elites” and set them on some actual elites? Or their thing about “law and order” and make the law apply to some people it doesn’t?

Biden got elected, for one, and was incredibly effective at getting legislation passed; way more than Obama was.

Biden’s biggest problem was reaching inside the aisle to the Dems who loved to “reach across the aisle” to block legislation.
posted by Artw at 7:17 AM on August 4 [8 favorites]

Chasing Republican votes has never worked. And often seems to hurt Democrats.

So of course it's been their core strategy for my entire life. I'm quite confident that Shapiro will be the VP because he's the one they can hope will offset Kamala's skin tone and gender to pull in that precious, precious, Republican vote they keep imagining they can swing.

argybarg Your argument that no one ever gets what they want because everyone is just a tiny slice is about 100% wrong as far as I can tell. In a situation like ours where everything is a matter of FPTP the parties tip almost entirely towards the largest plurality and everyone else gets to STFU and take it. MAGA in the case of the Republicans and center right liberalism in the case of the Democrats.

I mean shit, the left in America doesn't even get some kind words and the Republicans are actually WORSE towards anyone who isn't full MAGA than the Democrats are to anyone who isn't a milquetoast centrist bipartisanship fetishist.

Our system doesn't piss off everyone and leave everyone feeling they're being ignored or not getting all they want. It empowers the biggest plurality in each Party to get all they want and give the other factions nothing at all.

Biden got elected, for one, and was incredibly effective at getting legislation passed

The 111th Congress, during Obama's first term, passed 6,570 bills.

The 118th Congress, during Biden's first term, passed 78.

Now it's fair to say that's not exactly Biden's fault, but let's not tell lies and claim his bipartianship magic is making him uniquely amazing at getting bills passed. Reaching across the aisle gets your hand bitten by the sharks on the Republican side and just makes you look like a chump.

Bipartisanship is just a fancy way of saying surrendering to the Republicans.
posted by sotonohito at 7:18 AM on August 4 [20 favorites]

Your argument that no one ever gets what they want because everyone is just a tiny slice

Which is not my argument.

You could certainly slice the electorate in different ways than this profile of six "hidden tribes" (really seven, if you count the politically disengaged), just as you can argue the difference between dialects and languages. But if you think of the boundaries of "the group I affiliate politically with never gets its due," then there are probably 5-6 groups that meet that definition.

Some are, in fact larger than others — but none of them is the majority, or even really close.* They may look that way if you look outside your own group and say "well, they're all basically the same, so I count them as one gigantic supermajority." But they, within their own groups, certainly don't have that experience.

There are groups, like the Evangelical right wing, that gain an outsized influence. But they have nailed the dynamic of staying relentless on their message while gladly partnering with a large-enough coalition in which to be insistent. I'm jealous! If we had that combination of fervency and pragmatism about climate change, it would be a huge and salient issue in politics. Instead — and I can say this as someone who worked in climate change politics for a while — the participants were so effective and energetic at purging apostates that there was no one but a tiny rump left to work with. We snuff ourselves out.

The political suicide for progressive Democrats is to say "we're the actual party; everyone else is an imposter and indistinguishable from the worst people on earth; collaboration is too much of a moral compromise to consider."

No, I don't think making overtures to the far right and hoping to snatch some of the Freedom Caucus vote is wise politics; no one is suggesting that. But I'm saying MeFi, as a microcosm of progressive politics, shows us that even saying a nice thing about possibly working with a moderate Democrat with a terrible quote or (god forbid) a potentially sympathetic Republican entails a huge social price. You probably don't feel it or think it's B.S. But I promise you that it's true.

I feel very progressive in my political views and very pragmatic in my actual politics. I don't think people here are actually hostile to that combination so much as they are enthusiastic about attacking the expressions of that combination. It's very discouraging.

*I remember introducing a friend to the race track, back when I used to bet on horses. She spent a few races betting on 8-to-1 horses, then got discouraged when they lost. She said: "I've had it with this. I just want to win. I'm going to bet on the front-runner." And then she found that front runners usually lose. In a race of eight horses, every individual horse is unlikely to win.
posted by argybarg at 7:44 AM on August 4 [18 favorites]

I think the problem is that every success the democratic party has...I remember an SNL sketch right after Boogie Nights came out and Burt Reynolds won an Oscar and a talk show host was like, "This kind of comeback is just unprecedented...what will you do now, Burt?" And Burt Reynolds, who may have been Norm MacDonald, was immediately like, "Smokey and the Bandit 6. Then we're doing a new Cannonball Run. Then, ah...Smokey 7." Like, the democrats just cannot grasp that the electorate does not want this shit, that the enthusiasm is based on a hopefully not false assumption that they are now proposing to do different shit. Please do not get it twisted and assume the main reason why Biden looked like some old trash that no one had bothered to take out for weeks is that he's just ancient; that is not it. People are sick of this fucking horseshit.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:51 AM on August 4 [17 favorites]

When I was a young person, most democracies were progressive-leaning,

What I've come to realize is that this time period was the exception rather than the rule. Country started out with much of it's population only recognized as 3/5ths human. There was a whole sect of Christianity in support of white supremacy. It had to evolve after the civil war but people didn't just stop believing those things. At the time of the war, all the power in the south was concentrated in the hands of a few owners of enormous plantations. It was an oligarchy. It's been this same continuous fight between those that think everyone should have a say in how society runs and those who think only "the right people" should have that say. Thanks to the tireless efforts of enough people, the scales lean towards progress.

I think the USSR was a big enough focus for those feelings for a while and we came up at the right time to have a different understanding of what "normal" means.
posted by VTX at 8:06 AM on August 4 [9 favorites]

Outreach can be good, if it's low-effort. Concession is what we should avoid.

For instance, the "Republicans for Harris" campaign described in the AP article above looks pretty good on the face of it. They're not really offering Republicans anything except "sign on to this to have a good excuse to not be monsters". They're not really spending money, resources, or effort to make it happen: they have a couple of mid-level Republicans showing up to smile and wave and perform most of the boosting of this particular subcampaign. They're not promising those folks a seat at the table, and I'm kind of hoping they're not planning to offer one.
posted by jackbishop at 8:22 AM on August 4 [34 favorites]

I would imagine the unspoken pitch of Republicans for Harris is something akin to "Help us save democracy and perhaps afterwards, your party won't vanish beneath the waves of history, never to be seen again."

I have conservative friends who really want to avoid two scenarios: Trump wins and the US devolves into authoritarianism; but also, Trump loses, the GOP shrivels and dies.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:30 AM on August 4 [7 favorites]

I have conservative friends who really want to avoid two scenarios: Trump wins and the US devolves into authoritarianism; but also, Trump loses, the GOP shrivels and dies.

I presume "not electing other GOP party members who become Trump yes-men" is a plan that has not occurred to them?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:47 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I'm not like the Never Trump Whisperer or anything.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:00 AM on August 4 [5 favorites]

The Never Trumpers are well out of power in their party at the moment.
posted by argybarg at 9:01 AM on August 4 [2 favorites]

I may know a few people who aren't like me, but I'm the same kind of fucking pinko most of the rest of you are and am both unwilling and a poor choice to be made anyone on the right's proxy.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:08 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]

I presume "not electing other GOP party members who become Trump yes-men" is a plan that has not occurred to them?

After what happened to the people who tried that? Most of the former Republican mainstream types I know have been edging inactive or, in a couple of cases, straight-ticket Democrat simply because they don’t see a viable way to reclaim the party from within.
posted by adamsc at 9:09 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]

Trump loses, the GOP shrivels and dies.

way back when, after 2016 but before 2020, I heard an interesting argument for Trump's eventual impact on the Republican party being its more or less complete demise -- that he would disgust so many people who called themselves Republicans that they would either form a third party, not vote at all, or begrudgingly back some Democratic options.

So much so that there would be an election where the Republican nominee lost almost as bad as George McGovern did in 1972 ... maybe worse. With the long term effect being that there was effectively no longer a functional Republican Party (in terms of having any real influence), that in its stead we'd have this massively Big Tent Democratic Party ... which would inevitably, perhaps very quickly, split, politics being politics, humans being humans. The "left" part would remain Democratic. The "right" part would opt for a new "improved" Republican option, get busy reanimating that corpse, with huge piles of corporate cash to sweeten the deal.

Long story short. We'd be more or less back to business as usual, except maybe, just maybe, the notion of what constituted "the centre" would have shifted a little to the left overall.
posted by philip-random at 9:36 AM on August 4 [7 favorites]

I think "Republicans for Harris" can be effective without any policy changes.

I think the "success" of extreme Republicans have made voters realize what their policies actually mean.

I'm thinking explicitly on the issue of women's reproductive health. All the real-world harm that those policies are causing are driving people to vote against right-wing abortion laws and referendums in bright-red states.

I can imagine a similar sea-change in terms of gun control laws (in terms of licensing and registration).

People really don't want a Handmaid's Tale apocalyptic reality.
posted by ishmael at 9:42 AM on August 4 [5 favorites]

And that's another reason why JD Vance is such a terrible choice- he's said so much on record on the culture war front- "trad-wife" values are his brand now, and he can't really disavow it. Extreme republicans are way out over their skis.
posted by ishmael at 9:48 AM on August 4 [10 favorites]

Harris is interviewing at least three potential VPs today (WaPo): Walz, Kelly, and Shapiro
Rival Democrats line up to tank Shapiro's VP chances (Axios)
posted by box at 9:53 AM on August 4 [4 favorites]

The choice of pictures for that Axios article are annoying. Wonder who that pub is rooting for.
posted by ishmael at 9:58 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Extreme republicans are way out over their skis.

as someone who spent a chunk of his youth being a wannabe hotdog skier (way back when relatively NOT super rich kids could afford such pursuits), I must commend this turn of phrase. It's quite brilliant. That feeling you get (and I got it more than once) of being way the hell high above the ground and noticing your centre of gravity begin to shift in an overall forward direction, and there being absolutely nothing you can do about it ... except surrender to momentum and the catastrophic nosedive it has planned for you.

Also relevant: driving your car through a bend at a high rate of speed and realizing at its apex that there's no way you're going to be able to keep it on the road.
posted by philip-random at 9:59 AM on August 4 [9 favorites]

The Harris campaign’s effort includes former Govs. Bill Weld of Massachusetts ..

Pro-pot 2016 Libertarian VP candidate Bill Weld? He stopped being a Republican a long time ago (in fact, he resigned as MA governor in 1997 when Bill Clinton nominated him as ambassador to Mexico, only to get derailed by Jesse Helms). Now if they could get more recent Republican governor Charlie Baker onboard, that would be something.
posted by adamg at 10:13 AM on August 4

Kamala Harris has MAGA world freaking out about demons and the apocalypse
posted by Artw at 10:22 AM on August 4 [2 favorites]

weren't they already doing that?
posted by philip-random at 10:40 AM on August 4 [10 favorites]

Beshear cancels his entire calendar for Harris's VP announcement day. (Shapiro did, too, though.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:43 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Interesting. Beshear is, in the current pool, the biggest outlier compared to his electorate. A Democrat who can figure out how to be a governor of Kentucky is impressive in some way.
posted by argybarg at 10:46 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]

If *I* was going to be possibly picked VP, I'd cancel my whole day too! I mean...what a nerve-wracking day.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:50 AM on August 4 [8 favorites]

From that demon piece: "He likened the first Black and Indian woman to be nominated for president by a major party to Jezebel — a spirit with demonic powers." (my emphasis)

I feel sometimes like journalism's complete lack of interest in Christianity (coupled with a lack of doing like 10 seconds' worth of research) has helped the religious lunacy of the right-wing get where it is today.
posted by mittens at 10:50 AM on August 4 [9 favorites]

If *I* was going to be possibly picked VP, I'd cancel my whole day too! I mean...what a nerve-wracking day

gonna call in "i might get picked for vp" to work every day this week, just in case
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:58 AM on August 4 [24 favorites]

Regarding the potentials clearing their schedules, reread the comment from Jorts, above.

That said, she's expected to announce her choice tomorrow, so the speculation is almost over.
posted by cheshyre at 11:02 AM on August 4

Thread too long for me to find now, but someone suggested “Shapiro presenting the VP pick at the rally to drum up PA support” as an option and the facts would align… 👀
posted by brook horse at 11:03 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]

The 111th Congress, during Obama's first term, passed 6,570 bills. —> The 111th luxuriated in the Democrats' greatest electoral mandate since 1964.
The 118th Congress, during Biden's first term, passed 78. —> House Republicans in the 118th Congress Are Not Working for You (9/27/2023) With MAGA Republicans threatening to shut down the government, it’s worth noting what the House has not been doing: legislating. "This is a whole new concept of individuals that just want to burn the whole place down. That doesn’t work," Speaker McCarthy told reporters on Thursday, September 21, after the House failed to pass a rule to fund the Department of Defense for the second time in a week.[After McCarthy's ouster in October, there were weeks of delays/stalling until Republicans 'settled' on Johnson as Speaker.]

"Happy Birthday to JD Vance

“At 78 and 40, Donald Trump and his sidekick, the most unpopular VP pick in American history, are running on an agenda to drag our country backwards, reverse the progress we’ve made, and ensure Americans have fewer freedoms in the next generation than they had in the last.

“Voters won’t stand for it, and that’s why they’re already rejecting the Trump-Vance Project 2025 agenda to rip away our freedoms, jack up costs on the middle class, and fan the flames of hatred and division. While we wish JD a happy 40th, the American people will make certain that he celebrates his 41st anywhere but the White House.”

-Harris campaign's birthday message, posted on X, Aug. 2 2024
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:04 AM on August 4 [20 favorites]

brook horse, that was me! last week (aka last century)
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:05 AM on August 4 [3 favorites]

I have been thinking of that comment since! If it turns out to be true (with either Walz or Beshear) I think I’ll have to put out an offering to some kind of god
posted by brook horse at 11:08 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]

Iris Gambol Yes. And? My point here is that Biden is not using superhuman bipartisanship powers to get lots of laws passed.
posted by sotonohito at 11:17 AM on August 4 [6 favorites]

My point here is that Biden is not using superhuman bipartisanship powers to get lots of laws passed.

...and that was pretty much his only self-professed selling point.

(Oh, and that "nothing would fundamentally change," of course.)
posted by Gadarene at 11:34 AM on August 4 [4 favorites]

And to stave off the Manchinema talk, Manchin betrayed the President's agenda and his own public statements of support regarding the BBB, which Biden was either unable or unwilling to call him to account for, and the IRA is a pisspoor substitute with most of the good stuff of the BBB (and of Biden's Warren-and-Sanders-influenced campaign promises) left out in the cold. So spare me.
posted by Gadarene at 11:38 AM on August 4 [2 favorites]

The 111th Congress, during Obama's first term, passed 6,570 bills.

The 118th Congress, during Biden's first term, passed 78.

I'm not wading into your larger point (which I mostly agree with, though while noticing that reaching across to Republican senators/reps keeps being conflated here with reaching across to Republican-leaning voters), but I'd be curious where your numbers came from.

GovTrack, which should, if anything, show inflated numbers since it includes in the count bills that were enacted by having their substance incorporated into other bills, lists:

111th Congress (Obama's first term, pt 1): 639
112th Congress (Obama's first term, pt 2, after losing the house): 500
[...]
117th Congress (Biden, pt 1, with full control): 1,234
118th Congress (current, after losing the house, partway through): 270

In any case, if "number of bills passed" is a meaningful metric (and I'm not really sure it is), it looks like congress during Biden passed twice as many as during Obama while each controlled both chambers, but the current congress is on track to passing maybe 70% as many as during Obama's divided congress years.

Oh, wait, I figured out where the 6,570 number must have come from. Unless you (erroneously) derived it yourself, whatever source (article? tweet?) you grabbed it from was super sloppy!

6,570 is the raw number of resolutions proposed in the House during the 111th Congress -- i.e., the last resolution proposed in the House during that Congress was numbered H.R.6570.
posted by nobody at 11:58 AM on August 4 [18 favorites]

Also: who cares what the number is if they’re all shit?
posted by Captaintripps at 12:19 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

argybarg Its strange that you jumped from me explicitly saying it's a plurality, to thinking I was claiming the center right liberal faction is numerically a majority.

I'm just saying that due to the way American elections operate each party is going to collapse all factions into one dominant faction and the others being subordinate and more or less ignored. Hell, all that "forgotten man" shit is pure racist bullshit but it's actually got a tiny kernel of truth if you look at it purely from a Republican POV. The Republican Party was dominated by the big money faction and it truly did lock out the poor white Republicans. It's not true that they were forgotten, or that America left them behind but they were definitely left out of the party they voted for.

Now that's changing and the dominant faction is the pants on their head loony MAGA faction which is what the poorer white Republicans are now.

The VOTERS may indeed break into whatever categories you want to divide them into. But the people who get to run for office don't follow that division to speak of. While there are a few elected Republicans and Democrats outside the dominant faction it's clear that the dominant faction is easily the super majority of the elected people if not the electorate.

I hope the left isn't going to go bonkers like the poor white bigots did, but I think there's a lesson int he rise of MAGA for the smug liberals currently getting their way in the Democratic Party: if they don't acknowledge that the Party is a coalition and actually make some fucking concessions now and then they'll breed resentment that will one day spill over into voter revolt.

nobody I believe you are correct and I made a grave mistake in my numbers. I retract that statement given I'm clearly factually wrong.

I still think it's a bad idea to surrender to Republicans in the name of bipartisanship, but that's a different issue.
posted by sotonohito at 12:22 PM on August 4 [11 favorites]

From what I have seen, the far left does not react to shitty centrist leadership with loony behavior; the far left just becomes demoralized and doesn't vote. And I'll be very honest and say that my vote for Biden netted me, personally, exactly nothing but four years without Donald Trump. I don't think the years 2021-2024 would have been significantly different under Trump. I'm sorry if that hurts anybody's feelings. But my point is not to disparage Biden; my point is to explain why the base is tentatively energized now, with Harris, and to show how very delicate that enthusiasm is, and further to underscore that without that enthusiasm you are right back to where you were a month ago, with a loss to Trump.

Now, I DO think the years 2025-29 would be fantastically different under Trump, and immeasurably worse. That's thanks to the Supreme Court. After their last significant ruling, I would have voted for a dust bunny over Trump, and walked a mile to do it. Do I think I am representative of most of the left, NO, not really. I think that a Harris who makes too many squeaky noises when confronted with the goals of a progressive agenda will see her poll numbers slip a lot. I do not think the centrists are grappling with how easily this momentum can go away. It can go away in a heartbeat.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:48 PM on August 4 [3 favorites]

I don't think the years 2021-2024 would have been significantly different under Trump. I'm sorry if that hurts anybody's feelings.

It doesn't hurt my feelings but it makes me wonder what world you're living in. Unless you mean very narrowly that you're not sure those years would have been significantly different for you personally under Trump, in which case I'd just say that there are a lot of other people and we should probably care about them too.
posted by Justinian at 12:51 PM on August 4 [54 favorites]

I hope the left isn't going to go bonkers like the poor white bigots did

Bring it on.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:53 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

As for the Republicans For Harris thing, this is a "hey, why not" thing. You don't have to make policy concessions to them. These are people who are aware of what a second Trump term would bring. For example, Trump is calling for military tribunals for people like Liz Cheney, who is hardly a liberal Republican at all, and people like Mitch McConnell, another Trump enabler for so much of his term. There's others as well. And if Trump were to decide to do that, who stops him? If you can pick up a bunch of votes that are normally reliably republican with no real cost, you do it. That's found money. Another motivation for these republicans is simple - money. If Trump were to win, the economic consequences would be catastrophic and it would hit business owners hard. There's his economic proposals, such as universal tariffs, and immigration proposals that include deporting many immigrants who are here *legally*. That would be a huge hit on a labor pool that's already about to hit the demographic time bomb of the boomers hitting retirement age en masse. Not to mention to economic disruption that would happen from unrest. I would put the odds of a general strike under Trump II at 1 in 4. States such as California would likely start to go rogue and ignore new federal laws, regulations and court rulings. People who could afford to would retire early. Business hates one thing above all else, and that's uncertainty.
posted by azpenguin at 12:55 PM on August 4 [12 favorites]

Anyway, Biden is yesterday. I am concerned that Harris picking the wrong VP could do real damage. Trump, God help us all, was right to say his choice of VP isn't really important politically; people know what they're getting with Trump. But who Harris picks tells us something we don't yet know about Harris, because to be honest we don't know her very well. The VP is effectively the band t-shirt she chooses to wear, the waiter she is or is not an asshole to on our first date with her, the shopping cart she does or not choose to leave in the parking lot of a supermarket. It's a big deal and I am kinda nervous.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:07 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

I mean that I don't know what the difference to my life would have been, point blank. The Ukraine situation might be different. We might still have a military presence in the Middle East. Those are important things. Do I think that Biden made life any better for most Americans? Not really. The cost of living is out of control, millions of people are being displaced by gentrification; I realize these are things that are invisible to most of the people who visit this site, but this is real shit that is happening that either I am told is not that big of a deal or that the mere president of course has no power over. If you think Biden kicked ass, great, but ask yourself seriously why so few of your fellow Americans felt the same way. It might be because you're much smarter than they are, and if that's what you choose to believe, go for it.

Ukraine would have definitely been different, Russia would have already claimed it as its own and would be dealing with a bloody insurrection, with thousands of civilians paying the price monthly. And we're always going to have a military presence in the Middle East. But what do you think Biden could have done about the cost of living? And gentrification? There's always going to be arguments about what that term means. Our downtown has been massively revitalized over the last ten years, sparked by a new streetcar line. Downtown used to be a scary place to go to, and you didn't go there unless it was necessary. Few businesses were open past 5. They tried to bring downtown back for four decades, and nothing worked. Then they got the streetcar, residential development followed, businesses came in, and it's alive now. Neighborhoods were not displaced, residents were not kicked out. Some multistory apartment/condo buildings have gone up, and the area is actually livable and walkable. Yet people are screaming "gentrification!" They lost the old, dead at night downtown with a few punk hangouts. That's not gentrification.
posted by azpenguin at 1:20 PM on August 4 [10 favorites]

So, some people are definitely benefitted by gentrification, and as I said, it is a thing that is invisible to many users of this site. It's a derail. Biden is himself a derail. My bad for derailing us.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:22 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

It's fun (and by fun, I mean terrifying) to imagine if Trump had gotten yet another Supreme Court appointment by winning or successfully overturning the 2020 election.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:33 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

Plus Alito may well have retired (there's reporting that he wants out) if Trump was President, so the majority would be even further solidified.
posted by Justinian at 1:35 PM on August 4 [4 favorites]

I know a lot of formerly impoverished people whose situations improved under Biden. That's where the majority of his successes have been focused. Kamala's speeches have so far focused on the middle class, which I think is a good strategy because the working-to-middle class has not seen the same gains, and they play a big role in how the election goes.
posted by brook horse at 1:39 PM on August 4 [12 favorites]

Lol, I see my comments are being displaced now. Have a great day, everybody!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:04 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

Yeah what was that? I thought that was an important and relevant comment even if we disagree on other things (not that our agreement or lack thereof is really pertinent). I was about to ask if you requested for it to be deleted because I don’t see why it would be otherwise.
posted by brook horse at 2:06 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

Um, to be fair, looking back over my comment, there is no way to address that without it being the conversation for the next 600 comments. I absolutely meant what I said, but this is not a thread about gentrification and unspoken attitudes, although for fuck's sake it sure sounds like a conversation we need to have. (Responding to brook horse, obviously.)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:11 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

From what I have seen, the far left does not react to shitty centrist leadership with loony behavior; the far left just becomes demoralized and doesn't vote.

I don't think it's so much that the "far left" "becomes demoralized" -- it's just that leftists are already fairly suspicious of electoralism, so if it looks like the same shit from a different party, we're more likely to pour energy into things we think are actually useful rather than propping up elderly rich people's careers in politics.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:15 PM on August 4 [4 favorites]

Healthcare is a sort of giant, concrete thing that went differently under Biden than it would have under Trump, but some of it depends on what state you live in.

If you make medicaid-level income and you live in one of the states where Trump had approved waivers so your state could a) start applying work requirements (even though the cost of building out a compliance system might be higher than the savings from dropping people from the rolls, not to mention the utter brutality of dropping people's coverage when they probably need it most), and/or b) start charging monthly medicaid premiums, then the Democratic administration coming in and rescinding those state waivers was a huge deal for you.

And I hesitate to point this out because I'd hope they might fly under the radar during the next republican administration (some more modest ones did, during the last one), but there are also states where new waivers were granted for making healthcare programs significantly more generous, with the one I'm familiar with expanding free (well, zero-premium, at least) healthcare coverage to families-of-four making up to 78,000/yr(!). It's not quite medicaid-for-all (since it's still not for all, and there are small co-pays for various things if you're in the top half of that income range), but it's a step closer to it in at least one state.

(There are also a couple of nationwide healthcare rules they enacted that are closer to liberal tinkering than true progress, but are still a big deal to the 18 million people affected by the tinkering.)
posted by nobody at 2:15 PM on August 4 [15 favorites]

:::looks around:::

Is this the Harris thread?
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:18 PM on August 4 [10 favorites]

I had entirely forgotten the massive amount of stress from the Medicaid work requirements thing. God. Yeah, my partner would probably just straight up be dead right now, so there’s that.
posted by brook horse at 2:21 PM on August 4 [13 favorites]

PBS (WHYY):

‘Talented politician’: Pennsylvania Republicans respond to Shapiro as possible VP pick

Josh Shapiro has a reputation for reaching across the aisle to pass bills and “get s*** done.” So what do Republicans in Pennsylvania think about him? Depends on who you ask.

Following the 2006 elections, Democrats controlled the Pennsylvania state House by one seat, like they do today, and the party could not unite behind a speaker. Josh Shapiro, who had only just finished his first term as a state representative, managed to broker a deal that put a moderate Republican in the role.

The event remains part of the lore behind Shapiro’s tendency to reach across the aisle to keep the machinations of government moving. And with Shapiro now at the top of the short list for consideration for presumed presidential nominee Kamala Harris’ vice presidential pick, supporters are talking up his practical bipartisan tendencies, especially Democrats in Pennsylvania who have been lobbying Harris to put him on the ticket.

“That term of that particular House wound up doing some really great things for the commonwealth,” said Steven Santarsiero, who was elected to the chamber two years later. “I think he showed leadership and his ability to bring people together there.”

Recently, Gretchen Whitmer, in a campaign stop for Harris, said Shapiro “gets s*** done.” Many Republicans in the state appear to agree.

“He’s had strong cross-party appeal since he first ran for governor,” former U.S. Rep. Charlie Dent told WHYY News. “I think that’s probably one of the advantages he brings to Kamala Harris and he can actually bring over some independent Republican votes in the commonwealth. I think she would have a much harder time doing that on her own.”

A lot of the rest of the article is said Republicans trashing Biden-Harris, straw-manning policies, you know the usual nonsense.

Then this:

“At this point, if I were advising Harris, I’d say she needs to be ruthlessly pragmatic and do what she must to win Pennsylvania,” Dent said. “Shapiro clearly helps her in that regard.”

Greenwood agreed, noting that the selection of running mates usually has little effect on the outcome of the race, but given how close Pennsylvania elections are, this year may be the exception.

“We’re in uncharted waters here,” he said, adding that Shapiro’s youth and energy will be felt outside the state. “He’s not just ‘check the boxes.’ He’s a very special, talented politico, and I think that he’ll help the ticket, not only Pennsylvania but I think across the country.”

Polling shows Shapiro’s favorability in the state falling between 50% and as much as 60% among voters statewide, with one poll showing 77% of Democrats, 42% of Republicans and 39% of independent voters have positive opinions about the governor’s job performance. Meanwhile, 40% of Pennsylvania voters support Shapiro for VP, a higher number than any of his competitors enjoy in their respective states. And, according to a new Bloomberg-Morning Consult poll, Shapiro also has a higher favorability across the swing states (29%) than any of the other discussed picks, except for Pete Buttigieg (31%).

Love seeing Buttigieg doing numbers. All roads seem to lead to Shapiro, but I can only hope Kamala pulls a "Roads? Where we're going we don't need 'roads'".
posted by cashman at 2:21 PM on August 4 [4 favorites]

"ruthlessly pragmatic" is exactly how I'd describe the case for picking Shapiro as VP.
posted by Justinian at 2:40 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

"ruthlessly pragmatic" is exactly how I'd describe the case for picking Shapiro as VP.

Picking the most divisive VP candidate by far, who is also the least experienced in actual governance, is definitely one definition of pragmatism.
posted by Gadarene at 2:47 PM on August 4 [10 favorites]

There's clearly a massive influence operation for Shapiro. (At least, I can't really imagine that the guy has a secret underground fanbase that's just doing this work on its own. He seems basically OK but he's no Bernie Sanders.) Were I somehow to find myself in Harris's position I would find that pretty disqualifying in itself. Imagine having to deal with the Mark Penns of the world buzzing around every time you have a difference of opinion with your VP.

But at the end of the day, it's Harris's call and not much to be gained from stressing about it IMO. If she decides he's the one she can best work with for the next 4+ years, then that's how it's going to be.

"ruthlessly pragmatic" is exactly how I'd describe the case for picking Shapiro as VP.

That's certainly how his friends are trying to pitch it. Unclear that there's much of an empirical basis for that pitch, though.
posted by Not A Thing at 2:48 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

It would give the appearance of pragmatism, for sure.
posted by Artw at 2:48 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

The empirical basis is that PA is probably the tipping point state and Shapiro is relatively popular there and likely worth anywhere from 1-2 points in the state. Even the people who think that's overstated believe it would be more like 0.5%, which may well be decisive in PA.

Shapiro is by no means my ideal VP choice but if he's the difference between winning and losing PA it's a no brainer, and I'm absolutely sure the Harris camp has been poring over the numbers since the VP search began.

But speaking of it being unclear there's much of an empirical basis, you can't say that the case against Shapiro has any empirical basis either, no? It's vibes either way.
posted by Justinian at 2:55 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

I've noticed today that there are more articles and more good will chatter online about Walz. WHICH I FUCKING LOVE TO SEE. I don't know that it'll tip the scales towards Walz (pretty pls, universe) but I am glad to see that people are talking about him. I'm also seeing more articles about Shapiro that aren't positive. We'll see, man.

I'm solidly in tenterhooks time.

But also, hoping they do a text message announcement on VP while simultaneously hitting press and socials. (They are already sending eleventy billion texts a day so it would be unsurprising.)
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:56 PM on August 4 [9 favorites]

It does seem to be down to Walz and Shapiro, vibes-wise. I don't see what Beshear brings to the table that any of the others can't, and Kelly seems to be fading.
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on August 4

Real question: Would Shapiro as VP really gain more votes in Pennsylvania than Shapiro enthusiastically campaigning for Harris and, e.g., Walz?
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:04 PM on August 4 [9 favorites]

C'mon Walz
posted by Windopaene at 3:07 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

I don't know but I'm sure nobody else here does either, and my point is that the Harris team is obviously in a better position to judge that given their resources than anybody here.
posted by Justinian at 3:07 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

he empirical basis is that PA is probably the tipping point state and Shapiro is relatively popular there and likely worth anywhere from 1-2 points in the state. Even the people who think that's overstated believe it would be more like 0.5%, which may well be decisive in PA

Who? The research I’ve read is that the effect of a VP on winning a home state is very likely null
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:11 PM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Question I hope is getting asked in the interviews: "Will I have your support even if you're not selected for VP?"

I wouldn't think anyone would answer "No".

I would expect Shapiro would campaign for PA votes even if he was not selected.
posted by rochrobbb at 3:14 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

Half of these people are being considered for spots in her cabinet as well, most likely, if you really want to get excited/spin out.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:21 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

Who? The research I’ve read is that the effect of a VP on winning a home state is very likely null

Silver thinks its around 0.5% for a state like PA. G. Eliott Morris says his model has it around 1.7% in PA. The other election math guys are around those ranges.

The guys who wrote this WaPo piece acknowledge that range is the conventional estimate but say their research puts it higher, up to 3%.

And so on. The low end estimates still put it around half a point.
posted by Justinian at 3:23 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

(forgot to include one)

Another study estimating it at 1.7-1.8% with a CI of 0.6%-3.1%.
posted by Justinian at 3:25 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

Philly Inquirer:

Republican VP nominee JD Vance is coming to South Philly on Tuesday

Ohio Sen. JD Vance, the Republican vice presidential nominee, will make a campaign stop in South Philadelphia Tuesday, according to three people familiar with the planning.

Vance’s visit is happening on the same day Vice President Kamala Harris is expected to appear with her vice presidential nominee.

Vance’s visit is apparently happening around noon; Harris is scheduled to appear in the city with her running mate in North Philadelphia, at Temple University’s Liacouras Center, in the evening.

I hate that this chucklefuck is coming into town to try to get a word in.
posted by cashman at 3:37 PM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Oh, hello: Nate Silver's prediction model, which had been among the most bearish about Biden's chances, is today for the first time showing Harris with a greater than even chance of winning the electoral college (538 subreddit link -- despite 538 no longer having any connection with Silver-- since the model itself is paywalled and I'm done linking to Twitter).

(It puts those chances at just 50.5% so far, but it's still the first time it hasn't shown Trump as the favorite, so it feels like real progress.)
posted by nobody at 3:49 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

Nate Silver is owned by JD Vance patron Peter Thiel these days, rendering even more more worth ignoring than he was previously.

(Also he’s saying it should be Shapiro)
posted by Artw at 3:57 PM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Big deal, Trump was convicted on 34 counts of campaign fraud for paying hush money to a porn star he cheated on his 3rd wife with prior to being elected.

After he cheated on his second wife with the woman that became his third wife after he cheated on his first wife with the woman that became his second wife. Just like Rudy!
posted by kirkaracha at 3:59 PM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Rudy, who almost sexually assaulted an actor depicting a minor while being secretly filmed as part of an Oscar nominated movie…

These last few years have been a lot of centuries.
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM on August 4 [9 favorites]

Or, you know, whoops:

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Admits He Left a Dead Bear in Central Park

Mr. Kennedy, an independent presidential candidate, confessed to dropping off the bear cub 10 years ago and making it appear that a bike had hit the animal.
posted by argybarg at 4:07 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

who among us has not left a dead bear cub in Central Park?
posted by philip-random at 4:19 PM on August 4 [18 favorites]

(Of note: his I-just-saw-the-bear-hit-by-someone-else's-car-upstate-and-wanted-to-take-it-home-for-meat-but-then-had-to-go-to-a-Brooklyn-restaurant-and-then-the-airport-so-I-couldn't-get-it-refrigerated-in-time-so-I-dropped-it-off-in-midtown-Manattan-and-staged-it-to-look-like-a-bike-accident explanation video is apparently narrated to Roseanne Barr?? I guess good for her for moving away from Trump, but these are still some very questionable choices!)
posted by nobody at 4:19 PM on August 4 [11 favorites]

Very Presidential.
posted by mazola at 4:20 PM on August 4 [3 favorites]

Those brain worms keep on brain worming, I guess?

Is he trying to top Kristi Noem?
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:21 PM on August 4 [9 favorites]

The bloodline curse is strung with that family but he may well be the dumbest manifestation of it.
posted by Artw at 4:23 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Admits He Left a Dead Bear in Central Park

I didn't think anything could top the brain worms thing. I was wrong.
posted by May Kasahara at 4:40 PM on August 4 [14 favorites]

Some people in the SM threads have pointed out that eating bear meat is specifically how you get brain worms.
posted by rifflesby at 4:42 PM on August 4 [13 favorites]

RFK Jr is already in Live Boy/Dead Bear category?
posted by azpenguin at 4:56 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

I hate that this chucklefuck is coming into town to try to get a word in.

I love that he's trying it and will get 0 attention.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:56 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

Is he trying to top Kristi Noem?

She is a top. Ask Cricket.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

the thing about vibes is they're actually a hella big deal

like everyone who is going to spend a lot of cognitive cycles taking in information & critically thinking & pondering the nuances & updating their priors, most of those people (who are also not immune to vibes!) have already picked a candidate

of the rest -- & I'm not trying to judge on these people because life is hard & complicated & stressful & people are out there working multiple jobs in a society that's actively trying to cognitively exhaust everyone & like dude I get it -- anyway if they do wind up voting it's gonna be based on vibes first & foremost

vibes from the media narrative, vibes from what their friends are saying, vibes from their corner of the TikTok algorithm

it saves on mental energy and they don't have to worry about being socially out of step, everyone's vibing together! nice

there is zero guarantee these folk are gonna have bandwidth to spare on corrections & rebuttals, & it's the simple concrete hard-to-refute ones that are gonna go over best, like "no she didn't actually, that's propaganda, here's the proof"

with Shapiro we'd be starting in the hole of some bad initial vibes along 2 or 3 different axes & there aren't simple concrete arguments back out of that hole, like shit we're already in the weeds of exactly how much he worked with the IDF after high school & what he wrote about Netanyahu when & did he actually cover up a murder?? it is just a mess, it is not Fun Hot Coconut Summer

I'm tentatively optimistic she's gonna go with Walz & not fuck this up, idk from Michigan but he'll play great in Wisconsin (and vibes say Shapiro would tank her in Michigan)
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:08 PM on August 4 [12 favorites]

No matter who comes out onto the stage Tuesday, I want Kamala Harris to look at her running mate and say, "You're hired!"

Steal the old weirdo's catchphrase from him, and twist it into something positive and constructive.
posted by Inkslinger at 5:10 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

wait wtf where do you even GET a dead bear in New York, I have so many questions
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:12 PM on August 4 [13 favorites]

did he take it on the subway, what the whole shit
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:13 PM on August 4 [9 favorites]

I love how the CNN piece on RFK Jr’s bear cub states that he was in upstate NY “hawking”, rather than falconing.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:31 PM on August 4

It was one he just happened to have in the car with the intention of eating later.

So he drives in New York. What a weirdo.
posted by Artw at 5:33 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

I think "Republicans for Harris" can be effective without any policy changes. Let's say that the number of MAGA voters approaches the Keyes constant (27%), which means that ~20% of "Republican" voters could be receptive to the "She's the Law and Order candidate", "She's not a rapist, fraudster, and convicted felon", etc.
posted by mikelieman

Outreach can be good, if it's low-effort. Concession is what we should avoid.

For instance, the "Republicans for Harris" campaign described in the AP article above looks pretty good on the face of it. They're not really offering Republicans anything except "sign on to this to have a good excuse to not be monsters". They're not really spending money, resources, or effort to make it happen: they have a couple of mid-level Republicans showing up to smile and wave and perform most of the boosting of this particular subcampaign. They're not promising those folks a seat at the table, and I'm kind of hoping they're not planning to offer one.
posted by jackbishop

I would imagine the unspoken pitch of Republicans for Harris is something akin to "Help us save democracy and perhaps afterwards, your party won't vanish beneath the waves of history, never to be seen again."

I have conservative friends who really want to avoid two scenarios: Trump wins and the US devolves into authoritarianism; but also, Trump loses, the GOP shrivels and dies.
posted by DirtyOldTown

...reaching across to Republican senators/reps keeps being conflated here with reaching across to Republican-leaning voters...
posted by nobody

As for the Republicans For Harris thing, this is a "hey, why not" thing. You don't have to make policy concessions to them. These are people who are aware of what a second Trump term would bring. For example, Trump is calling for military tribunals for people like Liz Cheney, who is hardly a liberal Republican at all, and people like Mitch McConnell, another Trump enabler for so much of his term. There's others as well. And if Trump were to decide to do that, who stops him? If you can pick up a bunch of votes that are normally reliably republican with no real cost, you do it. That's found money. Another motivation for these republicans is simple - money. If Trump were to win, the economic consequences would be catastrophic and it would hit business owners hard. There's his economic proposals, such as universal tariffs, and immigration proposals that include deporting many immigrants who are here *legally*. That would be a huge hit on a labor pool that's already about to hit the demographic time bomb of the boomers hitting retirement age en masse. Not to mention to economic disruption that would happen from unrest. I would put the odds of a general strike under Trump II at 1 in 4. States such as California would likely start to go rogue and ignore new federal laws, regulations and court rulings. People who could afford to would retire early. Business hates one thing above all else, and that's uncertainty.
posted by azpenguin

All this.

Some here just don't get it. The Dems, from centrist liberals to left progressives, have been presented with one of the rarest of all political opportunities: the chance to pick up a swag of voters from their opponent's camp, at no cost, without having to make any policy or principle concessions at all, by simply offering what they are already offering. In this case the continuation of democracy and the rule of law (and even their strengthening - e.g. a constitutional amendment stripping presidents of any immunity), protection of basic personal freedoms, and to go on making money (albeit slightly less than before for the richer end of town).

You will have all heard the line about not interrupting your enemy when they are doing the wrong thing. Same applies in reverse: Don't interrupt them when they are doing the right thing. Don't reject their support when they offer it without asking for anything in return that is not already part of your platform.

You will also have heard the one about always make sure your opponent has a face saving way out. Obviously that does not mean the leadership like Trump and his immediate circle of enablers and hardcore theo-fascist MAGA thugs, they deserve to rot in prison for the rest of their miserable days for what they have done to this world and clearly intend to go right on doing if allowed. But it certainly applies to those, especially in the rank-and-file, who are willing to stand up and say they were wrong and are prepared to switch sides, at least temporarily, and I would suggest a percentage of them are potential converts to more reliable Dem voters, or at least less reliable Repub ones. You should be as welcoming and accommodating of these political refugees as you can, without giving any policy ground. Not hostile to them, not stuck in ancient feuds with them, not crowing self-righteously and humiliating them.

Keep your eye on the real prize: maximising votes all the way down the ballot, for every federal and state and local office, even the ones you cannot win because that sends a message to the winners to not take their position for granted.

The Dems have these voters over a barrel at the moment. Chances are you will never get another political opening like this in your lifetime. Don't waste it.

Carpe fucking diem, people.
posted by Pouteria at 5:33 PM on August 4 [29 favorites]

A fun Beshear factoid that he likes to share of late is that the Appalachian Kentucky county Junior Development Vance likes to claim he is from... Beshear beat the GOP candidate by 22% there in the last KY gubernatorial election.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:33 PM on August 4 [10 favorites]

Pete Buttigieg said that while his son Gus was on a ventilator, Kamala Harris and her husband FaceTimed the new parents at the children’s hospital

Vanity Fair, August 2nd:

For Lowenthal and other donors, the stakes of the election and choice to support Harris are clear; when Lowenthal went to Florida for the winter, someone shouted the f-slur at him. At the event on Fire Island, Buttigieg told a story of the 24-hour notice he and Pete had before finding out they were going to adopt their twins: While their son Gus was on a ventilator in the first hours of his life, Emhoff and Vice President Harris FaceTimed into the children’s hospital to talk to the the Buttigieges. The spouses became close during the 2020 primary despite being on opposite sides of Team Pete and the KHive, and Harris ended up administering the oath of office to Pete Buttigieg for his cabinet appointment in 2021.

Also, Pete helped Kamala prep for the debate in 2020.

Still want Walz though. But Pete and Kamala have had a lot of notable and good interactions.
posted by cashman at 5:41 PM on August 4 [8 favorites]

I don't know of it was posted already somewhere in these labyrinthine Harris/catch all US politics threads, but Jason Kander also shared a nice story about Harris's efforts to connect with him, even after he withdrew a bit from politics.
posted by the primroses were over at 5:53 PM on August 4 [6 favorites]

I want Walz. I think that had the decision been made even as recent as Tuesday or Wednesday of last week, then sure, it's okay to have messed up and chosen Shapiro. But with as much in-your-face opposition to Shapiro as there has been all over, from online spaces to prominent Democrats actively writing joint letters saying "No no, not that person!", there's no way the campaign hasn't gotten a good look at how big that pin is that's getting dangerously close to that balloon of enthusiasm and momentum they have.

At this point I think there's been so much time that's passed that when this decision is made, it's a sign of whether the campaign is able to make a good decision, though the timeline has been truncated. It would be a "they aren't who we thought they were" moment for me. Kamala's ticket is a billion percent getting my vote, and I'm still going to do things to get the first black woman president elected, that's for damn sure.

Certainly there could be dozens of reasons why they choose the guy who looks to be the lock right now, from things we don't know about the other candidates, to party pressure, to pressures from places we haven't thought about or identified. I dunno if we find out tomorrow who the pick is, but I really really hope it's Harris/Walz, with what we know at the moment.
posted by cashman at 5:55 PM on August 4 [8 favorites]

I would gather that most folks here know that "538" as we understood it is dead and 538 as it exists today is less a complex and occasionally enlightening bit of dynamic and complex election modeling (run by a flawed person) than it is a computer the NYT left on after [they] razed that project to the foundations.

(I guess it hardly matters, except insofar as it might ruin the quip a little bit, but 538 hasn't been owned by the NYTimes since 2013! It's currently owned by ABC News, which means if it's a computer left in a basement somewhere, that basement is Disney's.)

(They also haven't turned their brand new and nearly entirely untested model back on again since the candidate swap.)
posted by nobody at 6:02 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

Okay. Thanks. Doesn't really materially affect my point, but I enjoy a good "Well, actually" as much as anyone. And I did know this was a gaggle of pedants even years ago when I signed up, so no fair being sore about it, I guess.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:09 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

Excellent points on an easy win for picking up additional support for this election and potentially for the future.

Thank you, Pouteria.
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 6:17 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

if "pick up a significant number of republican voters without at all changing your platform or putting time and energy into courting them that could be better spent elsewhere" is even remotely viable, sure, why not. sounds a lot like a rebranded version of "appealing to mythical unicorn centrist voters" with the additional caveat that it would cost literally nothing, which makes me even more skeptical, but if it works i would be happy to see it. just truly hope that bargain doesn't end up costing votes from the other side of the spectrum
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:17 PM on August 4 [6 favorites]

If there aren’t many ‘free’ GOP flippers like that, it at least gives me hope there’s a larger number that it encourages to just stay at home. Also free.
posted by mazola at 7:27 PM on August 4 [4 favorites]

Anyone who was old enough to vote in 2008 want to weigh in on how the Republicans for Obama thing went? Seems relevant but I'm not informed enough to say exactly how (2012 was my first presidential election).
posted by brook horse at 7:33 PM on August 4

They also haven't turned their brand new and nearly entirely untested model back on again since the candidate swap.

Given it was 50/50 even for Biden before the switch, we can infer that it would currently show Harris at something like 60-70%.
posted by Justinian at 7:58 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

Thanks, Goblin Barbarian.

I don't think it is easy, but it is definitely there.

> If there aren’t many ‘free’ GOP flippers like that, it at least gives me hope there’s a larger number that it encourages to just stay at home.
posted by mazola

Switching their vote to the Dems, or simply not turning out. Either does the job.

> Also free.

Exactly. It costs the Dems nothing more than what they are already doing. No money, no effort (beyond a few extra words of encouragement and thanks), no anguished clutching of pearls, no soul-wrenching party-dividing shit fights over policy compromises, etc.
posted by Pouteria at 8:09 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

Dems, GOP Release Joint Statement Calling RFK Jr ‘Weird’
posted by mbrubeck at 8:29 PM on August 4 [5 favorites]

Dems, GOP Release Joint Statement Calling RFK Jr ‘Weird’

*Nelson Munz emoji*
posted by ishmael at 8:41 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

Another thing where there’s definitely a kind of dem that’s into that, and it’s the worst and shittiest kind of dem.
posted by Artw at 9:53 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

Josh Shapiro, who may end as Kamala Harris's running mate, campaigned in 2022 against Covid protections such as masks and vaccines, even claiming they had been a mistake in 2020-22

Reading the article it says he campaigned against mandates, he didn’t call masked and vaccines a mistake (unless you can point out where he said that.) If you’re gonna attack based on facts that’s fine but make sure it’s based on facts.
posted by azpenguin at 9:59 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

wait wtf where do you even GET a dead bear in New York, I have so many questions

this bear from zoo, good price
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:06 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

He opposed vaccine mandates.

Like...

“This is an area where I think folks got it wrong,” Shapiro said of school and business shutdowns. On mask and vaccine mandates, Shapiro said he opposed them and instead talked about a need to “educate and empower” the public, business owners, school leaders and others to protect themselves and others.

C'mon.
posted by Gadarene at 10:06 PM on August 4 [4 favorites]

You worded it as he was against masks and vaccines. There’s a big difference between being anti-vax and anti-mask and being anti-mandate. I don’t think his position is ideal at all but you made him sound like an anti-vaxxer with your wording.
posted by azpenguin at 10:09 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

There’s a big difference between being anti-vax and anti-mask and being anti-mandate.

First, no Democrats should be against vaccine mandates during an honest to goodness global pandemic, for crying out loud.

Second, the line between "nobody should be required to mask" and "people don't need to mask" is thinner than you're suggesting. If masking is a public health exigency, then mandates are the only sane policy solution. If someone is against mandates, then it signals that making sure the public is as masked and vaccinated as possible is not a particular priority of theirs.

And I have a problem with someone being a Democratic standard bearer who thinks that way.
posted by Gadarene at 10:15 PM on August 4 [6 favorites]

Like, what good positions does this guy have?

Genuinely asking.
posted by Gadarene at 10:19 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

Seriously. Beginning to think liking this guy is just the Dem instinct to suck up to republicans kicking in.
posted by Artw at 10:28 PM on August 4 [4 favorites]

He's strongly pro-choice and campaigned on more than doubling PA's minimum wage to pick two. That said, I don't think anybody thinks that Harris is gonna pick the guy because he's the best on policy, if she does. He's not the best on policy.
posted by Justinian at 10:30 PM on August 4 [1 favorite]

Also not the best on not covering up sexual harassment.

Pretty good at concluding that 20 stab wounds were suicide in a case involving a family friend that's just been taken up by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, though.
posted by Gadarene at 10:40 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

This whole line of thinking of being anti-mask and anti-mandate has its roots in Donald Trump not wanting to look bad because of outbreak numbers.

It's frustrating that Shapiro wanted to toe the anti-mandate line.
posted by ishmael at 10:47 PM on August 4 [3 favorites]

he campaigned against mandates, he didn’t call masked and vaccines a mistake

I was always for mandating masks. Never for mandating vaccines. You can't force somebody to alter the chemical balance of their own personal biology. You can cajole them, seduce them, argue them ... but can't force it.

Think about it.

That's the single most fascist evil I can imagine. A government, any government, deciding on my own personal chemical balance ... my dreams and imagination.
posted by philip-random at 10:52 PM on August 4

Tell it to polio victims. JFC, Metafilter, get a grip.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:55 PM on August 4 [11 favorites]

Pretty good at concluding that 20 stab wounds were suicide in a case involving a family friend that's just been taken up by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, though.

Twenty stab wounds including several to the back of her neck, and at least a couple that happened after she was dead! That's a really talented suicide!
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:57 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

I think y’all can stop beating the Shapiro horse, maybe. It feels like it’s been hundreds of comments in this and other threads. The point is taken, by those that are prepared to take it.
posted by darkstar at 10:59 PM on August 4 [2 favorites]

Astonishingly people are still coming up with different points. Real box of chocolates, this one.
posted by Artw at 11:13 PM on August 4 [6 favorites]

You can't force somebody to alter the chemical balance of their own personal biology. You can cajole them, seduce them, argue them ... but can't force it.

"vaccine mandate" in America means that vaccines are a precondition to certain activities which have public health implications (attending public school with a bunch of other germy kids, eating indoors during a pandemic, etc). It doesn't mean the state literally holds you down and injects you with the vaccine.

Where do you live that you acquired this misunderstanding?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:58 PM on August 4 [7 favorites]

I don't understand the point of telling us not to talk about something that is on-topic and entirely germane to the conversation?
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:58 PM on August 4

Never for mandating vaccines. You can't force somebody to alter the chemical balance of their own personal biology.

Tell it to polio victims. JFC, Metafilter, get a grip.

John Oliver did a piece on RFKjr tonight. In 2019, he did an anti-vax media tour in Samoa, which in turn led to a measles outbreak which resulted in 83 deaths, mostly children.

How many millions had taken the covid vaccine without adverse effects at that point? It's safer than Tylenol. The vaccine fear is/was irrational.
posted by ishmael at 11:59 PM on August 4 [6 favorites]

Folks, we're getting lots of flags on derails. Please make an effort not to take this thread totally offtrack for every shiny object. Once we get confirmation on running mate, you can get a new thread to thoroughly dig into all the sins they've committed, but this paradigm of "Maybe it's [Person]" > "[Person] isn't good on [item]!" > "extended discussions/arguments on [item]" makes it annoying for people who are trying to read the thread to get updates on the Harris campaign. There's now a new post for gentrification. Maybe someone can make one for vaccines, again.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:14 AM on August 5 [11 favorites]

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