Telegram CEO Arrested Stop
August 25, 2024 8:36 AM Subscribe
Telegram messaging app CEO arrested in France (Al Jazeera, NYT gift, Le Monde, France 24, BBC, Guardian) French investigators had issued a warrant for Durov’s arrest as part of an inquiry into allegations of fraud, drug trafficking, organised crime, promotion of terrorism and cyberbullying. Russia’s embassy in France has demanded consular access to the 39-year-old Franco-Russian billionaire.
Thus opening the betting pool on which Westerner gets kidnapped (sorry, caught “spying”) to exchange for this guy.
posted by pulposus at 8:53 AM on August 25 [7 favorites]
posted by pulposus at 8:53 AM on August 25 [7 favorites]
After visiting the clinic, Durov was informed that his genetic material was highly sought after. This piqued his interest, and he decided to continue donating.
They say he better get a chaperone, because he can't stop messin' with the danger zone.
posted by credulous at 8:54 AM on August 25 [4 favorites]
They say he better get a chaperone, because he can't stop messin' with the danger zone.
posted by credulous at 8:54 AM on August 25 [4 favorites]
That the Russians are stepping up for him should make everyone who uses Telegram wonder just how encrypted 'end to end encryption' is in Telegram's case.
I highly doubt that the small print in the EULA mentions a back door for the KGB, but it probably should.
posted by jamjam at 9:07 AM on August 25 [23 favorites]
I highly doubt that the small print in the EULA mentions a back door for the KGB, but it probably should.
posted by jamjam at 9:07 AM on August 25 [23 favorites]
Russia’s embassy can have access as soon as they pull out of Donbas and Crimea. This should be true for anything else Russia demands anywhere.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:08 AM on August 25 [20 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:08 AM on August 25 [20 favorites]
russia doesn't want to get their hands on him because they LIKE him. he fled years ago after refusing to give russian security information about vk accounts, when he was running vk.
posted by Clowder of bats at 9:17 AM on August 25 [9 favorites]
posted by Clowder of bats at 9:17 AM on August 25 [9 favorites]
highly doubt that the small print in the EULA mentions a back door for the KGB, but it probably should
posted by HearHere at 9:22 AM on August 25 [4 favorites]
Certain countries or jurisdictions may impose regulatory constraints...
posted by HearHere at 9:22 AM on August 25 [4 favorites]
russia doesn't want to get their hands on him because they LIKE him
There is a lot of speculation that any dispute between Durov and/or Telegram and the Russian Government is just kayfabe designed to make Telegram seem more legit than it really is.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:43 AM on August 25 [8 favorites]
There is a lot of speculation that any dispute between Durov and/or Telegram and the Russian Government is just kayfabe designed to make Telegram seem more legit than it really is.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:43 AM on August 25 [8 favorites]
Billionaire arrested. Love those two words together. Love!
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:55 AM on August 25 [22 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:55 AM on August 25 [22 favorites]
If telegram isn't backdoored, how exactly would they moderate comms they can't decrypt?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:56 AM on August 25
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:56 AM on August 25
“ After visiting the clinic, Durov was informed that his genetic material was highly sought after. This piqued his interest, and he decided to continue donating.”
WANKER.
(just one more, I couldn’t help myself)
posted by cybrcamper at 10:04 AM on August 25 [21 favorites]
WANKER.
(just one more, I couldn’t help myself)
posted by cybrcamper at 10:04 AM on August 25 [21 favorites]
From Hacker News:
For those unaware, all channel on telegram are NOT ENCRYPTED. They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers. All chats that are not 'secret chat' mode (single device to single device) are NOT ENCRYPTED (stored in plaintext on server).
This is not about encryption, it is about the plaintext data and the organized crime happening in these channels.
Signal group chats ARE ENCRYPTED by default. It is actually not possible to send an unencrypted message on signal. This will not pivot into an E2E issue, and will not affect signal which has set itself up to not store unencrypted content on it's servers.
Sounds like a thousand flowers bloomed and France is the first to dabble in flower arranging.
posted by ocschwar at 10:05 AM on August 25 [20 favorites]
For those unaware, all channel on telegram are NOT ENCRYPTED. They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers. All chats that are not 'secret chat' mode (single device to single device) are NOT ENCRYPTED (stored in plaintext on server).
This is not about encryption, it is about the plaintext data and the organized crime happening in these channels.
Signal group chats ARE ENCRYPTED by default. It is actually not possible to send an unencrypted message on signal. This will not pivot into an E2E issue, and will not affect signal which has set itself up to not store unencrypted content on it's servers.
Sounds like a thousand flowers bloomed and France is the first to dabble in flower arranging.
posted by ocschwar at 10:05 AM on August 25 [20 favorites]
Telegram is definitely not safe and never has been. Not just for the shadowy Russian influence, the core crypto stuff was terrible for many many years.
However.. my impression from the VKontakte blowup in 2014 was that Durov was reasonably legit and principled. An unusual case of someone in public standing up to the Putin dictatorship. If it's kayfabe it's awfully elaborate and expensive.
Hard to understand how the French arrest would play into a Kremlin narrative. Maybe it's just what it looks like, them trying to enforce social media laws.
posted by Nelson at 10:05 AM on August 25 [11 favorites]
However.. my impression from the VKontakte blowup in 2014 was that Durov was reasonably legit and principled. An unusual case of someone in public standing up to the Putin dictatorship. If it's kayfabe it's awfully elaborate and expensive.
Hard to understand how the French arrest would play into a Kremlin narrative. Maybe it's just what it looks like, them trying to enforce social media laws.
posted by Nelson at 10:05 AM on August 25 [11 favorites]
Kinda weird that he got l'étranger émérite French citizenship a few years ago, and now he's under arrest. Maybe he was seeking protection from the long arm of Uncle Putin, or maybe he just likes cheese.
posted by credulous at 11:02 AM on August 25
posted by credulous at 11:02 AM on August 25
There was a terrorist attack in France very recently. Just wondering if other intelligence concerns are at play; to get access to communications related to other attacks perhaps, even if a public arrest would be a politically risky way to do so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:08 AM on August 25 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:08 AM on August 25 [4 favorites]
It is actually not possible to send an unencrypted message on signal.
It is, however, distressingly easy to end up sending beautifully encrypted messages to impostors. Take those safety number warnings seriously, people!
posted by flabdablet at 11:10 AM on August 25 [12 favorites]
It is, however, distressingly easy to end up sending beautifully encrypted messages to impostors. Take those safety number warnings seriously, people!
posted by flabdablet at 11:10 AM on August 25 [12 favorites]
I guess a innocuous reading of his French citizenship would be that he wanted smoother visa entry to the USA so he could continue his panspermia experiments.
posted by credulous at 11:29 AM on August 25 [2 favorites]
posted by credulous at 11:29 AM on August 25 [2 favorites]
Any day a billionaire tech-bro is arrested is a good day.
posted by senor biggles at 12:07 PM on August 25 [11 favorites]
posted by senor biggles at 12:07 PM on August 25 [11 favorites]
"open-sourcing his DNA"
stop. just stop.
Is he looking for Pull or Push requests?
posted by srboisvert at 12:25 PM on August 25 [13 favorites]
stop. just stop.
Is he looking for Pull or Push requests?
posted by srboisvert at 12:25 PM on August 25 [13 favorites]
In South Korea, Telegram has been a popular tool for online sexual abuse: On Telegram, countless chat rooms dedicated to degrading deepfakes of female acquaintances
posted by perkinite at 12:40 PM on August 25 [5 favorites]
posted by perkinite at 12:40 PM on August 25 [5 favorites]
It looks like the charges about apparently about content moderation:
The offences levelled at Durov by France’s OFMIN, an agency that deals with the prevention of violence against minors, include fraud, drug trafficking, cyberbullying, and organised crime...
The EU's been making more noises about controlling online content. Perhaps this is a rising wave.
posted by doctornemo at 12:43 PM on August 25 [1 favorite]
The offences levelled at Durov by France’s OFMIN, an agency that deals with the prevention of violence against minors, include fraud, drug trafficking, cyberbullying, and organised crime...
The EU's been making more noises about controlling online content. Perhaps this is a rising wave.
posted by doctornemo at 12:43 PM on August 25 [1 favorite]
First they came for the billionaires, and I did not speak out—because they're sociopathic monsters and good riddance.
posted by signal at 2:41 PM on August 25 [33 favorites]
posted by signal at 2:41 PM on August 25 [33 favorites]
Telegram CEO Arrested Stop
I see what you did there.
There was a terrorist attack in France very recently. Just wondering if other intelligence concerns are at play; to get access to communications
This was my guess. My understanding is that international law enforcement is very frustrated with Telegram's lack of cooperation on criminal cases. I don't know if France has something like Section 230, but I'm guessing it's a better jurisdiction than the US to hold a platform accountable for content.
posted by gusandrews at 3:40 PM on August 25 [4 favorites]
I see what you did there.
There was a terrorist attack in France very recently. Just wondering if other intelligence concerns are at play; to get access to communications
This was my guess. My understanding is that international law enforcement is very frustrated with Telegram's lack of cooperation on criminal cases. I don't know if France has something like Section 230, but I'm guessing it's a better jurisdiction than the US to hold a platform accountable for content.
posted by gusandrews at 3:40 PM on August 25 [4 favorites]
@gusandrews Please clarify your meaning in using "better" in this context.
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 5:00 PM on August 25 [1 favorite]
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 5:00 PM on August 25 [1 favorite]
Great! Now do Elon next.
posted by jonp72 at 5:31 PM on August 25 [10 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 5:31 PM on August 25 [10 favorites]
Well-respected cryptographer Matthew Green has written about how Telegram is mostly not encrypted and it is inaccurate to call it an encrypted messaging app.
Essentially: a) Telegram doesn't turn on its (weird, non-standard) encryption by default, and b) it's quite hard to turn on in the UI, and c) it's only available for 1-to-1 private chats anyway, not channels and not group chats.
posted by But tomorrow is another day... at 7:49 PM on August 25 [5 favorites]
Essentially: a) Telegram doesn't turn on its (weird, non-standard) encryption by default, and b) it's quite hard to turn on in the UI, and c) it's only available for 1-to-1 private chats anyway, not channels and not group chats.
posted by But tomorrow is another day... at 7:49 PM on August 25 [5 favorites]
My understanding is that international law enforcement is very frustrated with Telegram's lack of cooperation on criminal cases
Countries just do not arrest rich people, typically, without very good reason.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:21 AM on August 26 [3 favorites]
Countries just do not arrest rich people, typically, without very good reason.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:21 AM on August 26 [3 favorites]
I used to work for a major Linux vendor, and we were big on Telegram in the early days. After all, the client was DFSG-Free, and it integrated neatly into our desktop OS as well as our phone OS and hey this could really Be Something! It was early days, and the encrypted chat feature seemed better than most approaches at the time (such as clunky IRC OTR plugins). Really back then e2e encrypted messages were seen as Too Hard and GPG/PGP Had Lost and everything. We still tunnelled in to private IRC servers for the serious chats, though.
I run an annual bike ride from London to Amsterdam for charity, and we've used Telegram as the Big Public Group Chat for the past decade. The client Just Works on everything, and even though I have a phone that deliberately doesn't have Google Services, it can still ping my location every minute onto the shared map so we can track everyone's progress through cycleways of Flanders and Brabant. I'm not looking forward to finding a replacement, as we're not keeping any secrets (I don't even use my real name on there) and nothing else has the same broad support. I live in fear that it'll switch over to WhatsApp, and I'll just be disconnected because there's no way I'll install Google/FaceBook crap, even if I accept that Telegram is pretty grody now.
My favourite take so far has been Ian Betteridge (yes that Ian Betteridge) invoking his own eponymous law on that Matthew Green piece. I don't think Green chose the headline!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:28 AM on August 26 [2 favorites]
I run an annual bike ride from London to Amsterdam for charity, and we've used Telegram as the Big Public Group Chat for the past decade. The client Just Works on everything, and even though I have a phone that deliberately doesn't have Google Services, it can still ping my location every minute onto the shared map so we can track everyone's progress through cycleways of Flanders and Brabant. I'm not looking forward to finding a replacement, as we're not keeping any secrets (I don't even use my real name on there) and nothing else has the same broad support. I live in fear that it'll switch over to WhatsApp, and I'll just be disconnected because there's no way I'll install Google/FaceBook crap, even if I accept that Telegram is pretty grody now.
My favourite take so far has been Ian Betteridge (yes that Ian Betteridge) invoking his own eponymous law on that Matthew Green piece. I don't think Green chose the headline!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:28 AM on August 26 [2 favorites]
It seems free speech crusaders like Ed Snowden, Tucker Carlson, Kim Dot Com and Elon Musk have come out in defense of Durov.
posted by 2N2222 at 3:39 AM on August 26 [3 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 3:39 AM on August 26 [3 favorites]
Is Snowden a "free speech crusader"? He was a whistleblower whose main opinion on free speech was "whistle blowers shouldn't be thrown in jail". Of course now he is largely forced to stick close to the Russian line since that is where he was when the US terminated his passport.
There are really no good guys in a fight between the French government and a billionaire. I am sure Durov has committed numerous crimes. I think it is also quite likely that none of them are the actual motivations of Grench authorities.
I guess we'll see.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:57 AM on August 26 [2 favorites]
There are really no good guys in a fight between the French government and a billionaire. I am sure Durov has committed numerous crimes. I think it is also quite likely that none of them are the actual motivations of Grench authorities.
I guess we'll see.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:57 AM on August 26 [2 favorites]
Elon Musk is certainly not a free speech crusader. His pretense is a transparent lie.
posted by Nelson at 7:01 AM on August 26 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 7:01 AM on August 26 [3 favorites]
(I think it's clear 2N2222's "free speech crusaders" was meant sarcastically! Even if not up to speed on each of the others, surely Tucker Carlson's inclusion on the list should be a giveaway?)
posted by nobody at 7:46 AM on August 26 [2 favorites]
posted by nobody at 7:46 AM on August 26 [2 favorites]
Wait. You mean they've been lying to me this whole time?
posted by 2N2222 at 7:50 AM on August 26 [4 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 7:50 AM on August 26 [4 favorites]
at this point anyone who doesn't know that telegram is shit for security deserves what they get. Very tired of hearing "Actually, most chats aren't end-to-end encrypted..."
posted by mattgriffin at 8:55 AM on August 26 [1 favorite]
posted by mattgriffin at 8:55 AM on August 26 [1 favorite]
I thought maybe the free speech comment was sarcastic but honestly this story has rattled my usual intuitions. I think there is a legitimate free speech angle on Telegram allowing individuals to have truly secure one to one communication. Where I want regulation is when it becomes a mass medium or a large group organizing platform. (See also: Discord in the bad old days.)
Related: The Proud Boys’ Reliance on Telegram Didn’t Save Them, But It Thwarted Preventing the Attack. The headline is about how it's nearly impossible to delete group chats from every phone (a problem with every system I've ever used). But also this...
Related: The Proud Boys’ Reliance on Telegram Didn’t Save Them, But It Thwarted Preventing the Attack. The headline is about how it's nearly impossible to delete group chats from every phone (a problem with every system I've ever used). But also this...
Telegram is the platform of choice for extremists of all ideologies, both for broadcast messaging and for more discreet threads like the ones the Proud Boys used. And in quick moving situations, like the extremist mobilization in the wake of the Southport stabbing in the UK, Telegram channels can grow to include tens of thousands before they’re even discovered. While Telegram took the rare step, in that case, of shutting down the most violent channels tied to British riots, it left many of them up.posted by Nelson at 8:58 AM on August 26
Telegram Founder’s Arrest Part of Broad Investigation, French Prosecutors Say (NYT, 8/26)
Laure Beccuau, the Paris prosecutor, said in a statement that the arrest was part of an investigation opened on July 8 “against person unnamed” on a raft of potential charges, including complicity in the distribution of child pornography and selling of drugs, money laundering, and a refusal to cooperate with law enforcement.posted by box at 9:54 AM on August 26 [2 favorites]
The investigation is being handled by cybercrime and anti-fraud specialists, Ms. Beccuau said. “It is within this procedural framework that Pavel Durov was questioned by the investigators,” she said.
perkinite, thanks for posting that article. That story is truly awful.
posted by JR06 at 10:17 AM on August 26 [1 favorite]
posted by JR06 at 10:17 AM on August 26 [1 favorite]
No need to invent conspiracies or hidden motivations when the stated ones fit the evidence just fine. The guy runs a massively popular (and very insecure) chat app, which is almost totally unmoderated in any meaningful way. We all know—because we keep running this experiment over and over—what happens to unmoderated, anonymous online spaces: they become cesspools, attracting the worst in human behavior. And Telegram has been festering at scale for a long time. I'd bet you don't have to dig deep to find some real nightmare fuel shit going on there.
Durov basically used (famously lax) Russian law to protect Telegram from Western demands that he at least do Facebook-grade moderation, but then decided to be a French citizen when it became inconvenient to only have a Russian passport.
I can see the French police apparatus deciding that's egregious enough to want to take a swing at him, even though the lawyers he'll be able to afford will probably make the case hellish to prosecute.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:47 PM on August 26 [2 favorites]
Durov basically used (famously lax) Russian law to protect Telegram from Western demands that he at least do Facebook-grade moderation, but then decided to be a French citizen when it became inconvenient to only have a Russian passport.
I can see the French police apparatus deciding that's egregious enough to want to take a swing at him, even though the lawyers he'll be able to afford will probably make the case hellish to prosecute.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:47 PM on August 26 [2 favorites]
How Telegram's Founder Became a Culture War Martyr (404)
posted by box at 7:58 AM on August 27 [1 favorite]
posted by box at 7:58 AM on August 27 [1 favorite]
That's a really interesting article, box, thank you. It's real weird to me that an insecure-by-design communications system with probable Russian government interference has become the medium of choice for an incipient US fascist movement. The obvious explanation is upsetting.
(Really worth reading. FWIW it cites as a big influencer that stupid "Signal’s Katherine Maher Problem" article that went around a couple of months ago.)
posted by Nelson at 9:16 AM on August 27 [2 favorites]
(Really worth reading. FWIW it cites as a big influencer that stupid "Signal’s Katherine Maher Problem" article that went around a couple of months ago.)
posted by Nelson at 9:16 AM on August 27 [2 favorites]
And it seems that Durov's arrest has put a crimp in Russian military comms, as they were using Telegram as opposed to their own secure comms system.
...reality continues to fuck with me.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on August 27 [3 favorites]
...reality continues to fuck with me.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on August 27 [3 favorites]
I'm thinking right now about Kaspersky, the PC security company. A Russian company and for years now doing really good anti-malware work in public. They seemed to be operating independently of the Kremlin but there was always a doubt.
That all changed in June when the US government banned Kaspersky software sales in the US. They didn't say anything specific as to why, just quotes like
None of that has happened with Telegram. They still act as if they are independent. They aren't banned in the US. This French arrest seems to genuinely be about social media safety and not intelligence. But I do keep wondering why this obviously shoddy product is so popular in the US. At least Kaspersky was respected that they were doing the technical work right.
posted by Nelson at 9:58 AM on August 27 [2 favorites]
That all changed in June when the US government banned Kaspersky software sales in the US. They didn't say anything specific as to why, just quotes like
Russia has shown it has the capacity and ... the intent to exploit Russian companies like Kaspersky to collect and weaponize the personal information of Americans and that is why we are compelled to take the action that we are taking todayI'm guessing the US intelligence agencies have been worried about this for years and finally got enough influence to enact a ban. Maybe with specific intelligence, no idea.
None of that has happened with Telegram. They still act as if they are independent. They aren't banned in the US. This French arrest seems to genuinely be about social media safety and not intelligence. But I do keep wondering why this obviously shoddy product is so popular in the US. At least Kaspersky was respected that they were doing the technical work right.
posted by Nelson at 9:58 AM on August 27 [2 favorites]
If you're wondering why the French government is cracking down on unmoderated services, one reason has come up in public trial over the repeated raping of a woman by her husband and men he recruited online - many of whom were recruited via an unmoderated service the French government recently shut down.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:04 AM on September 6 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:04 AM on September 6 [1 favorite]
Telegram has finally responded. Telegram changes its tone on moderating private chats after CEO’s arrest. Also Telegram CEO breaks silence after arrest.
The actual content of what they said falls far short of active content moderation.
posted by Nelson at 10:40 AM on September 6 [2 favorites]
The actual content of what they said falls far short of active content moderation.
All Telegram apps have ‘Report’ buttons that let you flag illegal content for our moderators — in just a few taps,” followed by instructions on how to report messages.One thing I wish the press did a better job of is explaining the difference between Telegram one-to-one messaging and Telegram group chats. The one-to-one communication might (or might not) be encrypted. But Telegram also has these enormous group chats with up to 200,000 people. My impression is that's where the real harm is being done. The group chats aren't encrypted.
posted by Nelson at 10:40 AM on September 6 [2 favorites]
And we get one of the stupidest lines from Durov:
1. We routinely hold "innovators" responsible for defects in their creations that harm people. France views not providing moderation on a platform to be such a defect, and thus holds the operator accountable.
2. This isn't about a "tool", but a service that you are running, and it turns out that French law obliges such operators to follow guidelines - such as moderating the service so it doesn't become a hotbed of abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:56 AM on September 6 [5 favorites]
No innovator will ever build new tools if they know they can be personally held responsible for potential abuse of those tools.This is stupid for several reasons:
1. We routinely hold "innovators" responsible for defects in their creations that harm people. France views not providing moderation on a platform to be such a defect, and thus holds the operator accountable.
2. This isn't about a "tool", but a service that you are running, and it turns out that French law obliges such operators to follow guidelines - such as moderating the service so it doesn't become a hotbed of abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:56 AM on September 6 [5 favorites]
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