You say cilantro, and I say coriander...
August 28, 2024 4:04 AM Subscribe
The Romans, and later Italians, loved and used coriander and its leaves... until they didn't. What happened?
I was going to make a soap joke in the post title, but I washed my hands of it.
But before we get in a lather... the seeds don't taste of soap, yet those went down the drain too.
posted by rory at 4:49 AM on August 28 [19 favorites]
But before we get in a lather... the seeds don't taste of soap, yet those went down the drain too.
posted by rory at 4:49 AM on August 28 [19 favorites]
My best pesto is made with cilantro leaves.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:01 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:01 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]
Herba non grata, surely?
posted by BWA at 5:02 AM on August 28 [7 favorites]
posted by BWA at 5:02 AM on August 28 [7 favorites]
...and I say Danya ...
posted by Zumbador at 5:07 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 5:07 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
Today, Portugal is the only European country to use coriander as a fresh herb, in food and salads...
posted by chavenet at 5:11 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 5:11 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]
hoc est quod facit liquamen maius
posted by mittens at 5:15 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
posted by mittens at 5:15 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
but also: now i will not be able to see confetti without eating it
posted by mittens at 5:19 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
posted by mittens at 5:19 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
I love cilantro or coriander leaves.
It seems like 15+ years ago, back to the late '80s when I first started buying it, fresh cilantro from either large grocery chains or small Mexican grocery stores could be smelled across the room when pulled out of the bag at home. It was much more fragrant. I swear these days it seems far, far less potent. My wife agrees.
Every once in a while we buy a bunch of fresh cilantro that is similar to the very pungent kind we used to get commonly -- so I don't think it's our declining sense of smell that's to blame. Anyone else experiencing this?
(Thankfully there was an article about cilantro on Metafilter so I could ask this burning question!)
posted by SoberHighland at 5:39 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
It seems like 15+ years ago, back to the late '80s when I first started buying it, fresh cilantro from either large grocery chains or small Mexican grocery stores could be smelled across the room when pulled out of the bag at home. It was much more fragrant. I swear these days it seems far, far less potent. My wife agrees.
Every once in a while we buy a bunch of fresh cilantro that is similar to the very pungent kind we used to get commonly -- so I don't think it's our declining sense of smell that's to blame. Anyone else experiencing this?
(Thankfully there was an article about cilantro on Metafilter so I could ask this burning question!)
posted by SoberHighland at 5:39 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
My best pesto is made with cilantro leaves.
Mine too, cilantro + roasted almonds + parmesan cheese + olive oil + salt + lime juice. I'd give you quantities but I'm eye balling that stuff and adjusting for taste. I use leaves + stems, keep the roots for making curry paste.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:53 AM on August 28 [8 favorites]
Mine too, cilantro + roasted almonds + parmesan cheese + olive oil + salt + lime juice. I'd give you quantities but I'm eye balling that stuff and adjusting for taste. I use leaves + stems, keep the roots for making curry paste.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:53 AM on August 28 [8 favorites]
SoberHighland, YES!!!!
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:54 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:54 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
Btw the late 80s are like 35+ years ago... but carry on, I'm also in denial....
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:56 AM on August 28 [12 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:56 AM on August 28 [12 favorites]
Man, medieval food snobbery:
coriander’s local availability made it less elite than other spices. “Culturally, it’s not an expression of anyone’s wealth,” says Moyer-Nocchi. Instead, Asian spices like cinnamon and cardamom, imported from afar at great cost, became medieval status symbols.
posted by doctornemo at 6:14 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
coriander’s local availability made it less elite than other spices. “Culturally, it’s not an expression of anyone’s wealth,” says Moyer-Nocchi. Instead, Asian spices like cinnamon and cardamom, imported from afar at great cost, became medieval status symbols.
posted by doctornemo at 6:14 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
I had a sad little cilantro plant growing in a planter on my balcony that went to seed, and rather than letting them ripen and dry, I collected the green seeds, saved them in the freezer, and used them in cooking or added them raw to stuff. They’re like concentrated little green cilantro flavor bombs! And now I’ve used them all up and I’m sad that I can’t just buy more! I suppose I know how to make them, though, if I can be patient.
posted by moonmilk at 6:17 AM on August 28 [13 favorites]
posted by moonmilk at 6:17 AM on August 28 [13 favorites]
Yeah: cilantro leaves & stems, chopped almonds, too much fresh garlic, lots of olive oil, a little pepper, too much salt, and lemon juice to balance. Better after melding in the fridge overnight.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:31 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:31 AM on August 28 [4 favorites]
I’m the furthest thing from an avid gardener, but thanks to my BIL who is, we have a nearly infinite supply of cilantro growing in the yard for much of the year. (We’re in the tropics.). Once it goes to seed, I do find collecting and drying the seeds oddly satisfying, and then one gets to enjoy having perfumed hands for the rest of the day. A pork roast crusted with roasted and crushed coriander seeds is wonderful, and I don’t know why it wouldn’t be popular in modern Italy, or anywhere else it grows easily.
posted by mubba at 7:06 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]
posted by mubba at 7:06 AM on August 28 [3 favorites]
> “I have to drive 45 minutes to a grocery store in another city to find it, or grow it myself.”
What? Is there no Middle Eastern community where she lives?
I cannot speak for all of Italy but when I spent a few weeks there last year, even the smaller towns that I stayed at had fruit & veggie shops operated by people whose first language was Arabic, where I could buy cilantro. Somehow it didn't register that I didn't see it in Italian-language grocers.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:07 AM on August 28
What? Is there no Middle Eastern community where she lives?
I cannot speak for all of Italy but when I spent a few weeks there last year, even the smaller towns that I stayed at had fruit & veggie shops operated by people whose first language was Arabic, where I could buy cilantro. Somehow it didn't register that I didn't see it in Italian-language grocers.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:07 AM on August 28
> Instead, Asian spices like cinnamon and cardamom, imported from afar at great cost, became medieval status symbols
BUT
> At festive celebrations, coriander comfits were thrown and scattered, giving rise to the English word “confetti” for the paper particles that later replaced them.
In the middle ages, sugar was also a prestige foodstuff comparable to Asian spices in symbolic value. The lowly coriander seed acquires status by providing a surface to coat with expensive sugar, suitable for the ultimate in conspicuous consumption, scattering food to the four winds, or to be trampled in the mud.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:18 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
BUT
> At festive celebrations, coriander comfits were thrown and scattered, giving rise to the English word “confetti” for the paper particles that later replaced them.
In the middle ages, sugar was also a prestige foodstuff comparable to Asian spices in symbolic value. The lowly coriander seed acquires status by providing a surface to coat with expensive sugar, suitable for the ultimate in conspicuous consumption, scattering food to the four winds, or to be trampled in the mud.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:18 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
The link between confetti and comfit and coriander was fascinating and now my brain is trying to find a way to work that into a trivia question...
posted by jacquilynne at 7:32 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:32 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
Anyone else experiencing this?
Absolutely. I actually was discussing this recently. Sometimes I think it's because I've gotten more accustomed to eating cilantro in all manner of things. But it definitely does not taste/smell as strong.
I wonder what percentage of the medieval Italian population had the "tastes like soap" gene. We're not Italian but in my family, we're about a 50/50 split, and this means that when we eat together, we tend to leave out the cilantro so everybody can enjoy dinner, even if messes up my homemade salsa game, damnit.
posted by thivaia at 7:40 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
Absolutely. I actually was discussing this recently. Sometimes I think it's because I've gotten more accustomed to eating cilantro in all manner of things. But it definitely does not taste/smell as strong.
I wonder what percentage of the medieval Italian population had the "tastes like soap" gene. We're not Italian but in my family, we're about a 50/50 split, and this means that when we eat together, we tend to leave out the cilantro so everybody can enjoy dinner, even if messes up my homemade salsa game, damnit.
posted by thivaia at 7:40 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
Also
The link between confetti and comfit
Is either a magical realist novel about a Walter-Mitty-esque line cook or a twee album title.
posted by thivaia at 7:42 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
The link between confetti and comfit
Is either a magical realist novel about a Walter-Mitty-esque line cook or a twee album title.
posted by thivaia at 7:42 AM on August 28 [1 favorite]
Yes, I've stopped buying supermarket cilantro. It is less chewy but no more flavourful than hay.
posted by SnowRottie at 8:39 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
posted by SnowRottie at 8:39 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
(Thankfully there was an article about cilantro on Metafilter so I could ask this burning question!)
Gee, I'd never heard of burning it...
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:00 AM on August 28
Gee, I'd never heard of burning it...
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:00 AM on August 28
My wife and I recently lived in Italy, in Trentino, for year - and as Californians who like to cook it became a bit of a hunt to find fresh cilantro. Our local green market, the weekly market on Piazza delle Erbe, the Conad, the Poli - none carried the elusive Coriandolo. The Despar occasionally carried it in tiny plastic coffins, a few sad sprigs drained of all flavor. We finally found a tiny supermarket called Mio Negozio - "my store" - run by a Chinese family - that carried it, clearly grown on a small scale, big bouquets of it bundled up with random rubber bands around the stems. They also had hot hot peppers, coconut milk, plug adapters, big funky cans of red palm oil, and fish sauce. We shopped at Mio Negozio a lot.
posted by niicholas at 9:06 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
posted by niicholas at 9:06 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
Coriander leaves get bland if chilled, but you can’t ship them any distance or sell them in the giant standardized system now usual without chilling. Hence bland and sad.
I cut my cilantro and basil the day of delivery and treat them as fresh flower bouquets and it is a f’n hassle, I tell you what.
posted by clew at 9:25 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
I cut my cilantro and basil the day of delivery and treat them as fresh flower bouquets and it is a f’n hassle, I tell you what.
posted by clew at 9:25 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
It was much more fragrant. I swear these days it seems far, far less potent.
It's true, and it's the same with parsley, dill and tarragon. The reason is, I think, is that most supermarket herbs are grown in greenhouses, and often in a growth medium rather than earth. Mostly when I buy basil, it is in pots with real earth, maybe they just won't accept the other solution.
In Europe, grocers with Asian or Arab background usually have big bunches of herbs that are grown outdoors and are strong in structure and fragrance. But not the supermarkets.
I wonder what percentage of the medieval Italian population had the "tastes like soap" gene.
I asked an Indian friend about how they dealt with it in her region in India, because they always use cilantro, and she said people got used to it during childhood. It's like getting used to bitter tastes like coffee. This is obviously anecdotal, but I feel I read something about a survey too, maybe here on the blue.
posted by mumimor at 9:59 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
It's true, and it's the same with parsley, dill and tarragon. The reason is, I think, is that most supermarket herbs are grown in greenhouses, and often in a growth medium rather than earth. Mostly when I buy basil, it is in pots with real earth, maybe they just won't accept the other solution.
In Europe, grocers with Asian or Arab background usually have big bunches of herbs that are grown outdoors and are strong in structure and fragrance. But not the supermarkets.
I wonder what percentage of the medieval Italian population had the "tastes like soap" gene.
I asked an Indian friend about how they dealt with it in her region in India, because they always use cilantro, and she said people got used to it during childhood. It's like getting used to bitter tastes like coffee. This is obviously anecdotal, but I feel I read something about a survey too, maybe here on the blue.
posted by mumimor at 9:59 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
It totally tastes like soap to me and I still love it!
posted by night_train at 10:10 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
posted by night_train at 10:10 AM on August 28 [5 favorites]
Maybe the romans invented soap, and were like “hey now I smell of delicious herbs”
posted by The River Ivel at 10:15 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 10:15 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
Rosewater tastes like soap to me, but it's still good in certain things. Is soap a universal flavor?
posted by rikschell at 10:28 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 10:28 AM on August 28 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's a childhood hangover. I was frequently threatened with have my mouth washed out with soap.
I discovered this year that if you're really careful to cut all the flower heads of the plant as they appear it will not go to seed. Same with basil.
posted by night_train at 10:34 AM on August 28
I discovered this year that if you're really careful to cut all the flower heads of the plant as they appear it will not go to seed. Same with basil.
posted by night_train at 10:34 AM on August 28
Today, Portugal is the only European country to use coriander as a fresh herb, in food and salads...Crucial phrases:
- Onde ficam os sanitários?
- Gostaria mais uma cerveja, por favor.
- Muito odieo coentros.
This article seems like it was also missing something - what they either replaced it with or if they just left it out. I'm not sure I buy the 'it's poor people food' reasoning - that might explain its absence from cookbooks and fancy dishes but not from regular day to day cooking. Or the 'germans or French didn't use it' reasoning -especially when home made dishes were far less mass produced and cuisines far more regional.
I mean, if cuisines became less localized during this period, that seems like overall it would be worth more than a single line in this article?
My wild, wild guess: new world (American) tobacco (among other crops) flooded the market and changed dining habits starting around 1600-1700.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:23 PM on August 28
I mean, if cuisines became less localized during this period, that seems like overall it would be worth more than a single line in this article?
My wild, wild guess: new world (American) tobacco (among other crops) flooded the market and changed dining habits starting around 1600-1700.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:23 PM on August 28
A big point they're missing is that Roman cuisine != Italian cuisine. Roman food had an entirely different "language" in style and palate. You usually don’t find lovage, dormice, silphium, posca, or garum at your local restaurant. Roman cuisine also obviously predated the discovery of new world nightshades, so no tomatoes, no peppers, no potatoes.
posted by leotrotsky at 2:05 PM on August 28 [7 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 2:05 PM on August 28 [7 favorites]
you usually don’t find lovage, dormice, silphium, posca, or garum at your local restaurant. Roman cuisine also obviously predated the discovery of new world nightshades, so no tomatoes, no peppers, no potatoes.
A great comment and a lot to think about.
silphium - apparently the Romans ate it to extinction.
garum - sounds like fish sauce, or soy sauce? Not sure.
posca and dormice. I think these might see reduced usage due increasing economic status, much in the same way that squirrels and other rodents aren't really US staples. For those who didn't before know (like me) dormice is actually mice, not some ancient spice, that they ranched and ate.
Posca is water and wine vinegar, probably went away due to more production of actual wine and beer.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:44 PM on August 28
A great comment and a lot to think about.
silphium - apparently the Romans ate it to extinction.
garum - sounds like fish sauce, or soy sauce? Not sure.
posca and dormice. I think these might see reduced usage due increasing economic status, much in the same way that squirrels and other rodents aren't really US staples. For those who didn't before know (like me) dormice is actually mice, not some ancient spice, that they ranched and ate.
Posca is water and wine vinegar, probably went away due to more production of actual wine and beer.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:44 PM on August 28
My current culinary obsession is this green salsa by Nigella Lawson. It is extremely delicious -- bright, a little spicy -- and I've eaten it on almost anything up to and (almost) including ice cream. Slathered on/tossed with roasted broccoli was a particularly excellent combination.
posted by AwkwardPause at 4:26 PM on August 28 [4 favorites]
posted by AwkwardPause at 4:26 PM on August 28 [4 favorites]
That sounds amazing, definitely going to have to make some soon.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:37 PM on August 28
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:37 PM on August 28
It totally tastes like soap to me and I still love it!
Me too! I remember having paper wrapped chicken from a local Chinese place as a kid- it tasted so much like soap I couldn't eat it. But my family kept ordering it, I kept trying it, and one day it tasted good. Now there are tons of things that don't taste right to me if they don't have cilantro. I love a margarita made with toasted cumin syrup, and tequila muddled with fresh cilantro.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:24 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]
Me too! I remember having paper wrapped chicken from a local Chinese place as a kid- it tasted so much like soap I couldn't eat it. But my family kept ordering it, I kept trying it, and one day it tasted good. Now there are tons of things that don't taste right to me if they don't have cilantro. I love a margarita made with toasted cumin syrup, and tequila muddled with fresh cilantro.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:24 PM on August 28 [1 favorite]
1. My first exposure to Cilantro was at Taco Bell when we had to make the Pico de Gallo. (mid 90s, as a kid I wasn't into "real" food (green food), so I wasn't familiar. Also the greens my folks used didn't include that anyways.
2. Once when I was a kid, we took some cookies that were sitting out at our church and they tasted totally like soap. I am pretty sure it was actual soap, as both my friend and I both tasted it and it was STRONG. And I assumed it was to teach thieving little boys like my friend and I to not steal. But now I wonder if it was Cilantro (while still possibly meant as a "lesson", but less... sinister).
3. Re: Garum and Posca, etc... Max Miller has a couple videos about this:
Ancient Roman Garum Revisited (he did an earlier Garum video as well.
Feeding a Roman Legion | Posca & Laridum
I enjoy watching a lot of his videos. He's a fun watch.
4. Is Good and Plenty ™ candy based on Comfit? Is this what it would have been like? Only instead of licorice, coriander?
posted by symbioid at 8:14 PM on August 28
2. Once when I was a kid, we took some cookies that were sitting out at our church and they tasted totally like soap. I am pretty sure it was actual soap, as both my friend and I both tasted it and it was STRONG. And I assumed it was to teach thieving little boys like my friend and I to not steal. But now I wonder if it was Cilantro (while still possibly meant as a "lesson", but less... sinister).
3. Re: Garum and Posca, etc... Max Miller has a couple videos about this:
Ancient Roman Garum Revisited (he did an earlier Garum video as well.
Feeding a Roman Legion | Posca & Laridum
I enjoy watching a lot of his videos. He's a fun watch.
4. Is Good and Plenty ™ candy based on Comfit? Is this what it would have been like? Only instead of licorice, coriander?
posted by symbioid at 8:14 PM on August 28
Oops.
5. Fuck Cilanto Rice, I'm looking at you, shitty burrito chains.
posted by symbioid at 8:15 PM on August 28
5. Fuck Cilanto Rice, I'm looking at you, shitty burrito chains.
posted by symbioid at 8:15 PM on August 28
Can I recommend the CheeseBoard's green sauce
Oh. My. God. That looks amazing. That's definitely up next!
posted by AwkwardPause at 8:55 AM on August 29
Oh. My. God. That looks amazing. That's definitely up next!
posted by AwkwardPause at 8:55 AM on August 29
I learned I had the "taste likes soap" gene when I insisted that there must have been contamination in the curry we were putting in the Bain Marie at work, even though no one else could taste it!
posted by freethefeet at 3:53 PM on August 30
posted by freethefeet at 3:53 PM on August 30
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