You are not owed a hug or a selfie
September 3, 2024 7:20 AM Subscribe
This is good, thanks for posting.posted by box at 7:43 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
I know fan culture has been a thing forever, but the ability for fans to interact with their chosen idols is way different than when I was a teen/twentysomething in the 90s. It is wild, and not in a good way.
posted by Kitteh at 7:46 AM on September 3 [22 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:46 AM on September 3 [22 favorites]
For better and for worse, she's been speed running the first three years of an A-list pop star's career over the past six months. I hope people give her a break with this stuff.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:52 AM on September 3 [24 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:52 AM on September 3 [24 favorites]
The universality of parasocial behaviors is scary, especially now that everyone has the Internet. Finding family members is one of the very first things people do when they start to cross the boundaries from fan to superfan. Hearken back to One Direction days-- people knew all those guys' parents, siblings, where to find them online, treated them like they had been touched by holy hands, to the point where they were even showing up at family events like weddings and funerals as if they were part of the family too.
I also remember Barry Lyga, a male young adult author, getting a ration of shit because he laid down the boundary for himself: no hugs for fans. He'd still talk to you, shake your hand, sign your book, take pictures with you, but he didn't want to encourage teenage girls to get physically close to a grown man. And people excoriated him for it.
Finally, it takes almost no amount of fame for people to become parasocially intrusive. I am the least famous "famous Mefite" on this site, and I had people looking for my kids and my mom on Facebook just months after my very first, not very popular, book came out. 17 books later, and I've been grabbed, approached in the bathroom, cried on, and more. And again, my "fame" fits in a thimble.
The people who break these boundaries want to be close to you in any way possible and it has nothing to do with how famous you are. They love you, so they want to wear your skin, even if no one else has ever heard of you. You just get more of them, exponentially more of them, the more famous you are. Good for Chappell Roan for laying it out explicitly. I really hope that it helps her-- but it really pisses me off seeing how many people are pissed off that she even said it. The backlash is beginning.
posted by headspace at 7:53 AM on September 3 [80 favorites]
I also remember Barry Lyga, a male young adult author, getting a ration of shit because he laid down the boundary for himself: no hugs for fans. He'd still talk to you, shake your hand, sign your book, take pictures with you, but he didn't want to encourage teenage girls to get physically close to a grown man. And people excoriated him for it.
Finally, it takes almost no amount of fame for people to become parasocially intrusive. I am the least famous "famous Mefite" on this site, and I had people looking for my kids and my mom on Facebook just months after my very first, not very popular, book came out. 17 books later, and I've been grabbed, approached in the bathroom, cried on, and more. And again, my "fame" fits in a thimble.
The people who break these boundaries want to be close to you in any way possible and it has nothing to do with how famous you are. They love you, so they want to wear your skin, even if no one else has ever heard of you. You just get more of them, exponentially more of them, the more famous you are. Good for Chappell Roan for laying it out explicitly. I really hope that it helps her-- but it really pisses me off seeing how many people are pissed off that she even said it. The backlash is beginning.
posted by headspace at 7:53 AM on September 3 [80 favorites]
Good for Chappell Roan for laying it out explicitly. I really hope that it helps her-- but it really pisses me off seeing how many people are pissed off that she even said it. The backlash is beginning.
headspace, you're nailing it. It's not enough to be a fan, you must be a detective too to uncover private details about the celebrity's life because you feel you are owed that information. Like it's a secret key to unlock an intimate friendship you feel you deserve.
posted by Kitteh at 7:58 AM on September 3 [11 favorites]
headspace, you're nailing it. It's not enough to be a fan, you must be a detective too to uncover private details about the celebrity's life because you feel you are owed that information. Like it's a secret key to unlock an intimate friendship you feel you deserve.
posted by Kitteh at 7:58 AM on September 3 [11 favorites]
The Onion calls out the abuse Roan is facing in their usual manner.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:03 AM on September 3 [36 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:03 AM on September 3 [36 favorites]
Yes a lot of this has been around forever, but the internet seems to have supercharged it and not in a good way. As a kid I thought being famous would be neat, but then as I got older I saw the stuff that Britney Spears and her age group had to deal with, like the Olsen twins countdown and went no way do I want to be famous.
posted by Art_Pot at 8:06 AM on September 3 [6 favorites]
posted by Art_Pot at 8:06 AM on September 3 [6 favorites]
In a weird way, this makes me rethink nepo babies for the arts to maybe have some important things in common with "bloodline athletes" in sports.
In baseball, when evaluating an amateur, it's considered a huge plus if their dad/brother/uncle was a major league player. This isn't a perfect comparison, mind you. The main thing "bloodline" suggests for a baseball player is that he may have the literal genetic talent to succeed, whereas in the arts, talent gets ignored all the time and the nepo connection is mostly a shortcut to getting your foot in the door.
However, baseball scouts also talk about how second generation major leaguers have huge psychological advantages. Orioles rookie Jackson Holliday wasn't intimidated as much as most new players would be entering a major league clubhouse, because he'd been in one dozens of times with his dad, Matt. The Blue Jays' Vlad Guerrero Jr. wasn't nervous about autograph seekers or reporters because he grew up watching his dad handle that and could call him if he needed counsel. The media pressure and fame angles are things these guys can come in warmed up on and with knowledgeable support at home. Even aside from the possibility of having been prepared for this, the very least you can say is that they have a close relative who navigated all of this and succeeded.
I wonder to some extent if nepo babies have the same kinds of lighter load for handling the psychological load of fame. Which is to say, if it's not enough to be born with your foot in the door, it's also a big deal to grow up being informally coached in what to do when you get inside.
Grow up with your parents working as accountants or something, and you're in uncharted territory.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:09 AM on September 3 [40 favorites]
In baseball, when evaluating an amateur, it's considered a huge plus if their dad/brother/uncle was a major league player. This isn't a perfect comparison, mind you. The main thing "bloodline" suggests for a baseball player is that he may have the literal genetic talent to succeed, whereas in the arts, talent gets ignored all the time and the nepo connection is mostly a shortcut to getting your foot in the door.
However, baseball scouts also talk about how second generation major leaguers have huge psychological advantages. Orioles rookie Jackson Holliday wasn't intimidated as much as most new players would be entering a major league clubhouse, because he'd been in one dozens of times with his dad, Matt. The Blue Jays' Vlad Guerrero Jr. wasn't nervous about autograph seekers or reporters because he grew up watching his dad handle that and could call him if he needed counsel. The media pressure and fame angles are things these guys can come in warmed up on and with knowledgeable support at home. Even aside from the possibility of having been prepared for this, the very least you can say is that they have a close relative who navigated all of this and succeeded.
I wonder to some extent if nepo babies have the same kinds of lighter load for handling the psychological load of fame. Which is to say, if it's not enough to be born with your foot in the door, it's also a big deal to grow up being informally coached in what to do when you get inside.
Grow up with your parents working as accountants or something, and you're in uncharted territory.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:09 AM on September 3 [40 favorites]
I’m always kind of astonished at people’s reaction to celebrity — I tend to think of creators as people who make things I like rather than people I like, and, more often than not, I make no effort to get to know them at all, even via interviews, because them being good or wise or whatever won’t enhance my enjoyment of their work, but knowing that they are bad or hold bad opinions will negatively affect it.
Some of this comes from running a niche bookstore, where I got frequently hit with “you sell the stuff I like/therefore you must like the way I do/therefore you must like me” which is a much lower-wattage version of online parasociality. So I have some sympathy. Another angle is I’ve met and had long discussions with a number of famous people, mostly writers, some of whom became friends, and… they’re people? Obviously, I got on with the ones I became friends with and the others ranged from obnoxious to OK, but they were just people. More famous people, like musicians and actors must also be just people, and I have no reason to think they aren’t also somewhere between obnoxious and OK, so it’s easier for both of us if I just enjoy their creations and leave them alone.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:22 AM on September 3 [21 favorites]
Some of this comes from running a niche bookstore, where I got frequently hit with “you sell the stuff I like/therefore you must like the way I do/therefore you must like me” which is a much lower-wattage version of online parasociality. So I have some sympathy. Another angle is I’ve met and had long discussions with a number of famous people, mostly writers, some of whom became friends, and… they’re people? Obviously, I got on with the ones I became friends with and the others ranged from obnoxious to OK, but they were just people. More famous people, like musicians and actors must also be just people, and I have no reason to think they aren’t also somewhere between obnoxious and OK, so it’s easier for both of us if I just enjoy their creations and leave them alone.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:22 AM on September 3 [21 favorites]
I wanted to be famous for the pay and access to working with cool famous people and being able to do a career I was into. However, being famous these days is having a ton of stalkers*--even if you make a tiny name for yourself! and you're much safer hiding and being ignored and keeping yourself small, especially if you're the usual "anything but cis white hetero male." So, never mind that urge, I'll be hiding safely in the darkest of corners hoping I'm not seen forever. I've considered doing cool artistic projects, but if I say, make YouTube videos about my projects, as someone suggested once, I'd probably end up stalked/doxxed/ruin my life. So, never mind. If I get any of my work published anywhere? Maybe that happens too. You've got to hide your love away.
* though a friend of mine pointed out to me that I'm not famous and still got a stalker, just by going to work. And as Chappell herself said, “If you saw a random woman on the street, would you yell at her from a car window? Would you harass her in public? Would you stalk members of her family?” ...uh, the first two definitely happen. If a woman is seen, it can/will happen.
It is unfortunately a reasonable argument to say "you can't be your creative self and make a career in that if you don't want to or can't deal with the stalkers." (But who can deal with this? Nobody really.) It's not fair, but at this point it should be obvious that if you are noticed by enough people, that at least some of those people will go bonkers. It's not natural for say, me to know all of the shit I've heard about Bennifer when I don't know them or particularly even like them, and I know more about them than my neighbors. That's parasocial life for you.
I saw a quote from Jewel on this yesterday about how her hair turned white overnight at 24 while pregnant because of all of the death threats and she backed down from her career after that. My impression is that Chappell thought that having a drag persona would work to separate and possibly improve that situation, I'm kind of guessing from articles like this that that hasn't worked? The closest I can think of to her is Sia and her "how can she SEE?" hair wigs. Sia's relatively kept it on the downlow somehow. Maybe if they just can't see your face at all, it works? Maybe Chappell just needed to put a Phantom mask on instead of makeup?
Fame has unfortunately just gotten awful and messy with the more access that people get. Stalking a famous person's relatives and sending them death threats? This is too much.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:30 AM on September 3 [8 favorites]
* though a friend of mine pointed out to me that I'm not famous and still got a stalker, just by going to work. And as Chappell herself said, “If you saw a random woman on the street, would you yell at her from a car window? Would you harass her in public? Would you stalk members of her family?” ...uh, the first two definitely happen. If a woman is seen, it can/will happen.
It is unfortunately a reasonable argument to say "you can't be your creative self and make a career in that if you don't want to or can't deal with the stalkers." (But who can deal with this? Nobody really.) It's not fair, but at this point it should be obvious that if you are noticed by enough people, that at least some of those people will go bonkers. It's not natural for say, me to know all of the shit I've heard about Bennifer when I don't know them or particularly even like them, and I know more about them than my neighbors. That's parasocial life for you.
I saw a quote from Jewel on this yesterday about how her hair turned white overnight at 24 while pregnant because of all of the death threats and she backed down from her career after that. My impression is that Chappell thought that having a drag persona would work to separate and possibly improve that situation, I'm kind of guessing from articles like this that that hasn't worked? The closest I can think of to her is Sia and her "how can she SEE?" hair wigs. Sia's relatively kept it on the downlow somehow. Maybe if they just can't see your face at all, it works? Maybe Chappell just needed to put a Phantom mask on instead of makeup?
Fame has unfortunately just gotten awful and messy with the more access that people get. Stalking a famous person's relatives and sending them death threats? This is too much.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:30 AM on September 3 [8 favorites]
In a way, the job of the paparazzi was to humanize celebrities without empathizing ...
there’s an alternate definition of the term in a current documentary about Elizabeth Taylor:
there’s an alternate definition of the term in a current documentary about Elizabeth Taylor:
Photographers knocked on the door of Taylor’s rented villa on the outskirts of Rome disguised as priests and plumbers. They chased her for miles through the streets. There were bomb threats. In a voiceover, George Hamilton mused about the provenance of the term paparazzi: “It meant a bunch of guys with cameras looking for Elizabeth Taylor. They were not going for glamour anymore. They were going for destruction.” [wwd]posted by HearHere at 8:36 AM on September 3 [8 favorites]
My favorite celeb paparazzi hack was when Daniel Radcliffe, at the height of his Harry Potter fame, starred in a stage production and was hounded every night for snaps on his way in and out. One night, being a young fellow who had some fun here and there, he spent the night at a friend's house and trudged back to work in the same outfit as the day before. The paparazzi all grumbled and walked away. He asked one for them why. "You're in the same clothes as yesterday. It'll just look like the pics we already sold. Worthless." So he got multiples of that outfit and wore it every day the rest of the run and they had to leave him alone.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:36 AM on September 3 [85 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:36 AM on September 3 [85 favorites]
Chappell Roan has said that, though she sings about a lot of her real-life experiences, the character of “Chappell Roan” is not herself—she’s a drag persona, or a Hannah Montana-style alter ego. Part of the reasoning behind giving herself a different name and a theatrical look specifically for performances was to create a deliberate separation between her public and personal life.
I thought this bit was interesting in light of the article only ever calling her "Chappell Roan" and never her real name, the linked TikTok wherein she asked questions about fan behaviour being @chappellroan, etc. It's the old Vonnegut thing about "we are who we pretend to be".
posted by The Notorious SRD at 8:42 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
I thought this bit was interesting in light of the article only ever calling her "Chappell Roan" and never her real name, the linked TikTok wherein she asked questions about fan behaviour being @chappellroan, etc. It's the old Vonnegut thing about "we are who we pretend to be".
posted by The Notorious SRD at 8:42 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
I took the continued use of "Chappell Roan" as her name to be the authors respecting the boundary the separate persona implies.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:44 AM on September 3 [23 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:44 AM on September 3 [23 favorites]
Maybe "nepo baby" isn't an appropriate term of art when having a serious discussion about this stuff.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:45 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:45 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
The pseudo-cult of personality that we build up around celebrities is so incredibly weird to me. I get loving your favorite author or band or whatever, but I wouldn't dream of approaching an artist, unless it was a sanctioned event for that exact purpose (e.g., a signing, etc.) no matter how much I loved their work. I've already thanked them by supporting/enjoying/appreciating their work.
The comedian Nate Bargatze has a joke about how people don't understand that when they approach him for an autograph, picture, etc. they don't think about the 30 minutes after that where people will be coming up to him asking if he's famous, why he's famous, etc. That's just so strange to me, but I'm sure it's true.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 8:49 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
The comedian Nate Bargatze has a joke about how people don't understand that when they approach him for an autograph, picture, etc. they don't think about the 30 minutes after that where people will be coming up to him asking if he's famous, why he's famous, etc. That's just so strange to me, but I'm sure it's true.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 8:49 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
Now, if I see a musician or band I like, Shepherd will ask, "Do you want to hang around and see if you can meet them?" At 47, the answer is: "Nope! I'm good."*
*20s me would have been way different but that would have been an eagerness fueled by booze
posted by Kitteh at 9:02 AM on September 3 [4 favorites]
*20s me would have been way different but that would have been an eagerness fueled by booze
posted by Kitteh at 9:02 AM on September 3 [4 favorites]
I'm not famous but have worked with people who are, to varying degrees. And even at the very smalltime level, the demands fans will place on your time and personal space are kind of astounding. I was on tour once and the lead singer was recognized on the street in a rural part of Britain, which on the one hand was cool but on the other was like "whoah, weird." I've been cornered by fans at gigs who just insisted on cornering and talking at me and peppering me with questions, ignoring my obvious desire to stop conversing. I've had an earbud shoved in my ear so a fan could play me their chiptune cover of a Rush song at super high volume - and then shove the earbud back in my ear after I took it out. And this is just really, really low-level sort of fandom. It has made me super reticent to engage with celebrities at all unless I am explicitly invited to engage, because that's how I would want people to treat me in those situations if I were famous. Which I would never want to be, because holy shit.
Anyway, I feel for Chappell Roan and hope people respect her boundaries. Being that level of famous sucks by all accounts.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:26 AM on September 3 [15 favorites]
Anyway, I feel for Chappell Roan and hope people respect her boundaries. Being that level of famous sucks by all accounts.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:26 AM on September 3 [15 favorites]
Living in LA you have to become used to spotting celebrities, because they're thick on the ground in some areas. Makes for a good adjustment.
With how much of her persona is likeably awkward, I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't add fuel to the weirdness of modern parasociality. "She's just like me!"
I'm absolutely in favor of her setting boundaries because I can't even imagine. I have a small amount of fame in my hobby world to the point where going to a hobby conference is a thing I need to prepare myself for - can't fathom having to mentally gird my loins to get gas.
Plus, going back reading Fahrenheit 451 again a few years ago when my wife was teaching it - Bradbury really nailed the whole parasocial thing with "The Family" and Montague's rant to his wife about how they don't love her, etc.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:31 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
With how much of her persona is likeably awkward, I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't add fuel to the weirdness of modern parasociality. "She's just like me!"
I'm absolutely in favor of her setting boundaries because I can't even imagine. I have a small amount of fame in my hobby world to the point where going to a hobby conference is a thing I need to prepare myself for - can't fathom having to mentally gird my loins to get gas.
Plus, going back reading Fahrenheit 451 again a few years ago when my wife was teaching it - Bradbury really nailed the whole parasocial thing with "The Family" and Montague's rant to his wife about how they don't love her, etc.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:31 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
This is exactly how I feel about men complaining about their little men's problems like the male loneliness epidemic
Metafilter’s already made it amply clear that there’s almost as many people here who resent men talking about that as are being crappy about this, to be honest.
posted by ambrosen at 9:32 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
Metafilter’s already made it amply clear that there’s almost as many people here who resent men talking about that as are being crappy about this, to be honest.
posted by ambrosen at 9:32 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
child: i want to be famous so people can know me and love me and my work
me: do you know how many people there are also have you met people
posted by lalochezia at 9:36 AM on September 3 [20 favorites]
me: do you know how many people there are also have you met people
posted by lalochezia at 9:36 AM on September 3 [20 favorites]
Something that always stuck with me was one of the counselors at my school talking about how they'd gone to brunch at a local resort, and Roberta Flack was there. People kept coming up to talk to her, they wanted her autograph, etc... and she wasn't happy with the constant attention, she just wanted to have breakfast. I've never been a celebrity seeker or anything like that, and if I crossed paths with one that I liked out in public the most interaction I'd offer is "hey, how's it goin" and let them go about their day. If they initiate any chat further than that, hey, great, but I'll offer them the same space I offer anyone else with no demands on their time. You see so many people posting selfies with celebrities, no matter how minor, and I'm thinking "I know a lot of these people are gracious but it's gotta drive them nuts with everyone wanting a picture with them." There are resorts - very expensive ones - frequented by celebrities that are 100% top-notch world class, in beautiful settings, with great food, and they'll wait on you hand and foot if you wish. The thing that sets these resorts apart from others is that you will absolutely, positively be left alone and no one will know you were there unless you want them to know. The employees of these places are very tight lipped about their guests. Celebrities are willing to pay a premium for that kind of peace and quiet and I don't blame them.
This is exactly how I feel about men complaining about their little men's problems like the male loneliness epidemic!
Not to pick on you, as I've always liked your posts... but trust me, it's real and it's not fun. It's *really* hard to make friends anymore, and when the guys you used to hang out with move away or even die, it's tough to lose those connections and it's tough to fill in the gaps.
posted by azpenguin at 9:38 AM on September 3 [12 favorites]
This is exactly how I feel about men complaining about their little men's problems like the male loneliness epidemic!
Not to pick on you, as I've always liked your posts... but trust me, it's real and it's not fun. It's *really* hard to make friends anymore, and when the guys you used to hang out with move away or even die, it's tough to lose those connections and it's tough to fill in the gaps.
posted by azpenguin at 9:38 AM on September 3 [12 favorites]
Apologies for mefisplaining someone else's joke, but phunniemee wasn't being actually dismissive of male loneliness there. She was using it as an example of an issue that does not affect her that she could opt to pretend isn't real, were she a total asshole. Jokes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:46 AM on September 3 [17 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:46 AM on September 3 [17 favorites]
Shepherd and I walked past Matt Berry in Toronto in April and we both agreed that it was cool to have spotted him in the wild, but no way were we going to bug him.
posted by Kitteh at 9:48 AM on September 3
posted by Kitteh at 9:48 AM on September 3
Finally, it takes almost no amount of fame for people to become parasocially intrusive.
So I managed, in a comparatively minor way, to get visibly famous twice before I hit age twenty-five. And much as I enjoyed the ego boost at first, both times I quickly learned to HATE the overall experience. Simply put, life does not function very well when there are way more people who know you than there are people you know. I'd go so far as to say such a situation is invariably toxic; that's certainly how it worked for me.
A few years back, I met a guy who'd experienced more of the fame stuff than I, and as quite a young kid (child actor, not an instantly recognizable name but his face did get "out there" a fair bit for a while). One of his insights was along the lines of, "People get that Andy Warhol line about all of us getting fifteen minutes of fame totally wrong. That's not something to look forward to. It's a warning. Get famous and suddenly the worst sort of strangers want a piece of you. The real challenge is to get good work done, have influence and remain invisible."
posted by philip-random at 9:54 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
So I managed, in a comparatively minor way, to get visibly famous twice before I hit age twenty-five. And much as I enjoyed the ego boost at first, both times I quickly learned to HATE the overall experience. Simply put, life does not function very well when there are way more people who know you than there are people you know. I'd go so far as to say such a situation is invariably toxic; that's certainly how it worked for me.
A few years back, I met a guy who'd experienced more of the fame stuff than I, and as quite a young kid (child actor, not an instantly recognizable name but his face did get "out there" a fair bit for a while). One of his insights was along the lines of, "People get that Andy Warhol line about all of us getting fifteen minutes of fame totally wrong. That's not something to look forward to. It's a warning. Get famous and suddenly the worst sort of strangers want a piece of you. The real challenge is to get good work done, have influence and remain invisible."
posted by philip-random at 9:54 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
The pseudo-cult of personality that we build up around celebrities is so incredibly weird to me. I get loving your favorite author or band or whatever, but I wouldn't dream of approaching an artist, unless it was a sanctioned event for that exact purpose (e.g., a signing, etc.) no matter how much I loved their work. I've already thanked them by supporting/enjoying/appreciating their work.
I think it's so, so, context specific. I remember being a little kid and my parents spotting Clint Eastwood at the beach, and them sending me to go get an autograph, and he was like, 'i just want to go for a swim, kid' but little kid me Had A Job To Do, and then I got noticed and he got noticed and didn't get his swim. I've never forgotten that feeling, and have tried not to hassle* famous people just trying to live their life** no matter how much their creative work means to me. If I notice them, and they see me notice them, I find satisfaction in The Nod or The Nod+signed Thank You. (I live in LA, there's a nonzero chance I see People every day.)
Now, if I see a musician or band I like, Shepherd will ask, "Do you want to hang around and see if you can meet them?" At 47, the answer is: "Nope! I'm good."
I feel like this is a subsection of the 'sanctioned event' like, it's expected there could be fans at the stage door, which is very different from there being fans at the door of your hotel room or condo. If they're clearly moving expeditiously from point A to B, this is not Fan Time. If they're stopping to sign things or take photos, that's Fan Time. Basically, just be respectful of people's time when they want to interact with you, and not feeling entitled to it when they don't.
(*)One time I ended up next to singer I really liked as we were exiting (being herded) out of an event we were both at, and turned and said, 'excuse me [name], i just wanted to say I really appreciate you and your music.' they said 'Oh, thanks!' and I smiled and let the crowd take us different directions. That was the smoothest I ever executed something like that, yet now it feels cringey. Not as cringey as
(**)the time I was at another show and between sets saw Dave Foley hanging out. I'm a huge KITH and Newsradio fan, and he was smiling and chatting with people who approached him to chat (but not taking pictures). I worked up the nerve to go say hi, and word-barfed all over him. To his credit, he was increasingly amused by my verbal derailment and when I finally stopped talking, he stuck out his hand and said, 'Hi. I'm Dave." and grinned at me. I'm still stunned I'm not dead from embarassment.
posted by ApathyGirl at 9:56 AM on September 3 [12 favorites]
I think it's so, so, context specific. I remember being a little kid and my parents spotting Clint Eastwood at the beach, and them sending me to go get an autograph, and he was like, 'i just want to go for a swim, kid' but little kid me Had A Job To Do, and then I got noticed and he got noticed and didn't get his swim. I've never forgotten that feeling, and have tried not to hassle* famous people just trying to live their life** no matter how much their creative work means to me. If I notice them, and they see me notice them, I find satisfaction in The Nod or The Nod+signed Thank You. (I live in LA, there's a nonzero chance I see People every day.)
Now, if I see a musician or band I like, Shepherd will ask, "Do you want to hang around and see if you can meet them?" At 47, the answer is: "Nope! I'm good."
I feel like this is a subsection of the 'sanctioned event' like, it's expected there could be fans at the stage door, which is very different from there being fans at the door of your hotel room or condo. If they're clearly moving expeditiously from point A to B, this is not Fan Time. If they're stopping to sign things or take photos, that's Fan Time. Basically, just be respectful of people's time when they want to interact with you, and not feeling entitled to it when they don't.
(*)One time I ended up next to singer I really liked as we were exiting (being herded) out of an event we were both at, and turned and said, 'excuse me [name], i just wanted to say I really appreciate you and your music.' they said 'Oh, thanks!' and I smiled and let the crowd take us different directions. That was the smoothest I ever executed something like that, yet now it feels cringey. Not as cringey as
(**)the time I was at another show and between sets saw Dave Foley hanging out. I'm a huge KITH and Newsradio fan, and he was smiling and chatting with people who approached him to chat (but not taking pictures). I worked up the nerve to go say hi, and word-barfed all over him. To his credit, he was increasingly amused by my verbal derailment and when I finally stopped talking, he stuck out his hand and said, 'Hi. I'm Dave." and grinned at me. I'm still stunned I'm not dead from embarassment.
posted by ApathyGirl at 9:56 AM on September 3 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I assumed notorious funnywoman phunniemee was doing a bit, but it unfortunately fell flat given the specific context. Tough crowd eh try again etc.
posted by brook horse at 9:57 AM on September 3 [3 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 9:57 AM on September 3 [3 favorites]
My daughters think she's the shit. They've played enough of her songs for me that I think she's pretty good, plus it's excellent that she came out of nowhere instead of through some sort of injection-molding process via corporate fiat. Her reaction to crazy fans is genuine and a real point in her favor.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:00 AM on September 3 [1 favorite]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:00 AM on September 3 [1 favorite]
I've seen the mistreatment of famous people described as "brutal egalitarianism".
As for yelling compliments, I'm not extremely frightened by it. I thought of the risk as being in a sticky conversation rather than getting raped, but I didn't want to be in a sticky conversion.
It would typically be men saying "How are you doing?" and I'd ignore them, but that was stressful because it was breaking my courtesy training. It took a while to figure out that my lowest-stress response was to say "Fine, and you?" and keep moving. It would cheer the guy up and not stress me and not lead to anything.
I imagined saying to these various guys that I didn't like it, and him saying he was just trying to be friendly. I didn't want to deal with that and it never happened.
It eventually occurred to me that I wasn't generally on "how are you doing?" terms with strangers, and that it's a bit of a personal question.
Funny thing, it stopped after I hit menopause.
A bit of a core dump, and much less than what celebrities put up with.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:05 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
As for yelling compliments, I'm not extremely frightened by it. I thought of the risk as being in a sticky conversation rather than getting raped, but I didn't want to be in a sticky conversion.
It would typically be men saying "How are you doing?" and I'd ignore them, but that was stressful because it was breaking my courtesy training. It took a while to figure out that my lowest-stress response was to say "Fine, and you?" and keep moving. It would cheer the guy up and not stress me and not lead to anything.
I imagined saying to these various guys that I didn't like it, and him saying he was just trying to be friendly. I didn't want to deal with that and it never happened.
It eventually occurred to me that I wasn't generally on "how are you doing?" terms with strangers, and that it's a bit of a personal question.
Funny thing, it stopped after I hit menopause.
A bit of a core dump, and much less than what celebrities put up with.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:05 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
Dear Ms Roan. I have no idea who you are, so please be comforted by the fact that I will walk right by you without acknowledgement, interference or interest.
posted by storybored at 10:13 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
posted by storybored at 10:13 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
They complain about fans overwhelming them when in reality they can completely cut off fan access to themselves living in the envelope that sensible celebrities do - private estates, secured resorts, private clubs, private dining rooms accessed through the service entrance, etc.
This is frankly an outdated conception of the way celebrity works nowadays. With social media virality, someone can be rocketed up to fame and notoriety that far, far outstrips their resources to deal with it very, very quickly. That is, in fact, more or less what has happened to Chappell Roan. There's every likelihood that she hasn't seen much actual money yet from her sudden success. She likely cannot afford the strategies of the ultrafamous and ultrarich, and hell, given how little money can trickle down to artists, she may never be able to afford that. And she's not the only one.
Celebrity has, in some ways, been democratized, or maybe splintered is the better word. There's not much of a monoculture any more, there are a lot of various different cultures all with their own celebrities, and the proportion of attention to remuneration they get can be wildly skewed. Some rando youtuber might have to deal with all the bad parts of celebrity with few of the attendant privileges.
posted by yasaman at 10:15 AM on September 3 [41 favorites]
This is frankly an outdated conception of the way celebrity works nowadays. With social media virality, someone can be rocketed up to fame and notoriety that far, far outstrips their resources to deal with it very, very quickly. That is, in fact, more or less what has happened to Chappell Roan. There's every likelihood that she hasn't seen much actual money yet from her sudden success. She likely cannot afford the strategies of the ultrafamous and ultrarich, and hell, given how little money can trickle down to artists, she may never be able to afford that. And she's not the only one.
Celebrity has, in some ways, been democratized, or maybe splintered is the better word. There's not much of a monoculture any more, there are a lot of various different cultures all with their own celebrities, and the proportion of attention to remuneration they get can be wildly skewed. Some rando youtuber might have to deal with all the bad parts of celebrity with few of the attendant privileges.
posted by yasaman at 10:15 AM on September 3 [41 favorites]
On the rare occasion that I have approached celebrities, it has been in scenarios where I was already in the room with them and saying hello was not a de facto violation. My favorite was when I went to see a former high school classmate's movie premiere at a NYC film festival. Also having its premiere was Kill Me, Deadly, a short film featuring a bunch of the cast from Criminal Minds, including Kirstin Vangsness. At the cocktail reception following the showings, I was mulling about, looking for my former classmate, and happened upon Ms. Vangsness at a table with the two ladies I had set next to at the viewing. I introduced myself, and had the following exchange*:
Me: "Pardon me, Ms. Vangsness. I'm sorry to trouble you - are you tired of people telling you how awesome you are?"
KV: "Not at all!" (Gets up to talk to me with a big smile on her face)
Me: "Your film was so good! And I love you in Criminal Minds."
KV: "Thanks! That's sweet of you to say. Hey, is that a Rush pin on your jacket? I love Rush!"
Me: "It is! (tells story about that pin being recognized by a Costa Rican customs agent who started saying "Roosh! Roosh!")
KV: "(Laughs at my story)"
Me: "Can we take a photo?"
KV: "Of course, fellow Rush fan!"
And a photo was taken! I could have stuck around and chatted more with her and the two ladies, but I didn't think I could top what had just happened, so I skeedaddled. But I am, to this day, a huge Kirstin Vangsness fan, because she is awesome.
* Exact wording is probably inaccurate, you know how memory goes
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:23 AM on September 3 [15 favorites]
Me: "Pardon me, Ms. Vangsness. I'm sorry to trouble you - are you tired of people telling you how awesome you are?"
KV: "Not at all!" (Gets up to talk to me with a big smile on her face)
Me: "Your film was so good! And I love you in Criminal Minds."
KV: "Thanks! That's sweet of you to say. Hey, is that a Rush pin on your jacket? I love Rush!"
Me: "It is! (tells story about that pin being recognized by a Costa Rican customs agent who started saying "Roosh! Roosh!")
KV: "(Laughs at my story)"
Me: "Can we take a photo?"
KV: "Of course, fellow Rush fan!"
And a photo was taken! I could have stuck around and chatted more with her and the two ladies, but I didn't think I could top what had just happened, so I skeedaddled. But I am, to this day, a huge Kirstin Vangsness fan, because she is awesome.
* Exact wording is probably inaccurate, you know how memory goes
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:23 AM on September 3 [15 favorites]
A couple of decades ago I was starting to launch a fiction writing career on line. I had a few hundred regular fans. Dealing with their fan mail was interesting. One day out of the blue, I got a fan letter saying that a book club was reading my stuff and that I was their favourite author; I duly wrote back a bread-and-butter note telling them how kind it was for them to tell me and how glad I was that they liked my writing. Shortly after that I got another letter from the book club, giving the synopsis of around seven plots they had chosen, telling me that they expected me to write these stories for them. As my fans, they felt entitled to tell me what I would write.
Many people have a really amazing sense of entitlement. My readers and other authors told me that whenever I received a letter from a reader, I was under an obligation to write back, because letters from readers were a special gift, so desirable, and such privilege to get, that like wedding gifts, each one merited a custom thank you note in return. I was working a full time job as well as writing, so my writing time was limited. And within a few weeks, I was in the situation where a greater percentage of my time had to be spent writing thank you replies, rather than actually writing new fiction. The better my fiction got, and the more exposure I got, the more time I had to spend thanking people for their very kind letters. It just didn't add up. I could, with a struggle finish a short story over a weekend, although not every week end was available for me to write. Now, I know I was slow at composing thank you notes, even tho they were form letters with one personalized sentence in each one, but I was streamlining the process as much as I could. It was still really boring work and it took more time than the fiction writing did. Fifteen hours to write and edit a short story, seventeen hours to write thank you notes to the fans. Twelve hours to write a short story, nineteen hours to deal with the fan mail....
I was making around $75 to $120 per short story using all my free time over a weekend, which meant I wasn't quite making minimum wage on the writing, but when I added public relations time, that ensured that the extra income I was getting was definitely not incentive to continue. Moreover, while the writing income per story wasn't increasing, the mail was trending ever upward. It wasn't sustainable. I could bang out the stories real fast on a good day; they came out at sixty words per minute. But fan mail replies couldn't be done at that speed.
I didn't stop writing - I just went back to creating outsider art. I stopped sending my fiction out and went back to writing only for myself. I lost something because of that, because writing for an audience was the structure I needed to finish projects, and to polish them. I used to joke that my metier was the unfinished novel. I've finished about six of them, and only ever showed two of them to anyone. That's because for me fun was in the writing them, and although I loved rereading them initially, after a few years, I had moved on and wasn't delighted to reread them anymore. Also, I am a crap writer. They were objectively not great stories, but they were crafted to get an emotional response and I found a niche, that at that time had more people looking for stories than were writing them.
I began getting my writing published on line because it felt like a waste not to share them if I were going to be writing them anyway, and it was only practical to try to monetize them. But no, monetizing them turn out to be extremely impractical. I really, really, really didn't want to add marketing my stories on top of handling fan mail, but that would have been necessary to get to where I got paid a bit more for the writing. I was already steadily losing the time I had for writing. I definitely didn't want to turn into someone trying to get attention for some story I had written years ago, no longer doing any writing, just out there chasing readers. I could either deal with the public or write, but not both.
The bulk of the fan mail I got was inoffensive; some of it was demanding, like the one from the fan club. The occasional one came from someone who had found one of my works, sought out as much more of it that they could find and then wrote me a lengthy missive, telling me about their own internal life and how meaningful my stories were to them. Often letters tended to turn into a plea for me to supply them with yet more stories. Was there anywhere on the internet where my stories were published that they might of missed? But some came from lonely people who clearly wanted to connect to me personally and wanted me to be their new best friend. And there were definitely a few from people who got outraged if I wouldn't keep writing to them. Two of them went from trying to have a regular correspondence with me, to becoming plagiarists. One of them edited one of my stories, turning one of the main characters from a stranger into the teacher the kids hated. I sent a copy of the original to their editor and their version got taken down. Another story I wrote reappeared with some genders changed. The other one of the plagiarists took about a dozen of my stories and removed my name from them, put her own name on them and published them on a personal page dedicated to her own writing.
But of course, so many other people were wonderful and genuine. Two different people flattered me very much by asking for permission to translate works I had written. One story, with my name still on it, is out there in German, and another one is out there translated into Spanish. I do preen a little at that. I think I had the aptitude to have become a good writer, if life had turned out differently. But there was no way to do it without being visible. I know where Banksy is coming from. I just wanted to write stories. I wanted to mildly amuse a few people, and I wanted money I could put to getting the air conditioning on the passenger van fixed... Ye, no, dealing with the needy people made it impossible - even tho the vast majority of those people who contacted me just wanted to let me know I had made them happy and were not pushy or intrusive at all.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:25 AM on September 3 [32 favorites]
Many people have a really amazing sense of entitlement. My readers and other authors told me that whenever I received a letter from a reader, I was under an obligation to write back, because letters from readers were a special gift, so desirable, and such privilege to get, that like wedding gifts, each one merited a custom thank you note in return. I was working a full time job as well as writing, so my writing time was limited. And within a few weeks, I was in the situation where a greater percentage of my time had to be spent writing thank you replies, rather than actually writing new fiction. The better my fiction got, and the more exposure I got, the more time I had to spend thanking people for their very kind letters. It just didn't add up. I could, with a struggle finish a short story over a weekend, although not every week end was available for me to write. Now, I know I was slow at composing thank you notes, even tho they were form letters with one personalized sentence in each one, but I was streamlining the process as much as I could. It was still really boring work and it took more time than the fiction writing did. Fifteen hours to write and edit a short story, seventeen hours to write thank you notes to the fans. Twelve hours to write a short story, nineteen hours to deal with the fan mail....
I was making around $75 to $120 per short story using all my free time over a weekend, which meant I wasn't quite making minimum wage on the writing, but when I added public relations time, that ensured that the extra income I was getting was definitely not incentive to continue. Moreover, while the writing income per story wasn't increasing, the mail was trending ever upward. It wasn't sustainable. I could bang out the stories real fast on a good day; they came out at sixty words per minute. But fan mail replies couldn't be done at that speed.
I didn't stop writing - I just went back to creating outsider art. I stopped sending my fiction out and went back to writing only for myself. I lost something because of that, because writing for an audience was the structure I needed to finish projects, and to polish them. I used to joke that my metier was the unfinished novel. I've finished about six of them, and only ever showed two of them to anyone. That's because for me fun was in the writing them, and although I loved rereading them initially, after a few years, I had moved on and wasn't delighted to reread them anymore. Also, I am a crap writer. They were objectively not great stories, but they were crafted to get an emotional response and I found a niche, that at that time had more people looking for stories than were writing them.
I began getting my writing published on line because it felt like a waste not to share them if I were going to be writing them anyway, and it was only practical to try to monetize them. But no, monetizing them turn out to be extremely impractical. I really, really, really didn't want to add marketing my stories on top of handling fan mail, but that would have been necessary to get to where I got paid a bit more for the writing. I was already steadily losing the time I had for writing. I definitely didn't want to turn into someone trying to get attention for some story I had written years ago, no longer doing any writing, just out there chasing readers. I could either deal with the public or write, but not both.
The bulk of the fan mail I got was inoffensive; some of it was demanding, like the one from the fan club. The occasional one came from someone who had found one of my works, sought out as much more of it that they could find and then wrote me a lengthy missive, telling me about their own internal life and how meaningful my stories were to them. Often letters tended to turn into a plea for me to supply them with yet more stories. Was there anywhere on the internet where my stories were published that they might of missed? But some came from lonely people who clearly wanted to connect to me personally and wanted me to be their new best friend. And there were definitely a few from people who got outraged if I wouldn't keep writing to them. Two of them went from trying to have a regular correspondence with me, to becoming plagiarists. One of them edited one of my stories, turning one of the main characters from a stranger into the teacher the kids hated. I sent a copy of the original to their editor and their version got taken down. Another story I wrote reappeared with some genders changed. The other one of the plagiarists took about a dozen of my stories and removed my name from them, put her own name on them and published them on a personal page dedicated to her own writing.
But of course, so many other people were wonderful and genuine. Two different people flattered me very much by asking for permission to translate works I had written. One story, with my name still on it, is out there in German, and another one is out there translated into Spanish. I do preen a little at that. I think I had the aptitude to have become a good writer, if life had turned out differently. But there was no way to do it without being visible. I know where Banksy is coming from. I just wanted to write stories. I wanted to mildly amuse a few people, and I wanted money I could put to getting the air conditioning on the passenger van fixed... Ye, no, dealing with the needy people made it impossible - even tho the vast majority of those people who contacted me just wanted to let me know I had made them happy and were not pushy or intrusive at all.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:25 AM on September 3 [32 favorites]
A lot of celebrities are numbskulls. They make terrible decisions and squander their immense opportunities.
Sounds like someone's jealoussssss......
They complain about fans overwhelming them when in reality they can completely cut off fan access to themselves living in the envelope that sensible celebrities do - private estates, secured resorts, private clubs, private dining rooms accessed through the service entrance, etc.
Or fans could not be douchewads.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on September 3 [12 favorites]
Sounds like someone's jealoussssss......
They complain about fans overwhelming them when in reality they can completely cut off fan access to themselves living in the envelope that sensible celebrities do - private estates, secured resorts, private clubs, private dining rooms accessed through the service entrance, etc.
Or fans could not be douchewads.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on September 3 [12 favorites]
Or fans could not be douchewads.
I think, rather than take a side on any of this (fans bad vs celebs bad), we'd do better to view fame itself as toxic, not good for anyone. Not fatal or anything (although sometimes it is), but just distorting/toxifying so-called reality for all concerned.
I read grumpbear69's comment above about meeting [famous person] and much as I'm amused, I also have to wonder -- why MUST it be so weird, even when it's pleasant? And it does seem that it must be weird. I know my own situations with "famous" people (I've had a few) are all unique, yet on at least one level, badly the same. Which is, I can't just experience them as normal. That is, I have something on them that they don't have on me, which is familiarity (however distorted it may be), which skews things. And, of course, they're doing their own weird dance (does this person recognize me or ...?)
Perhaps my most benign famous person meeting (he was thoroughly world famous in a particular sort of way) was informed by A. their being a pretty cool, grounded person, and B. both of us being rather high and loose (we met over a randomly shared marijuana joint at an after hours booze can). It went as well as it could have. We hung out for a while. He bought me a beer. I rolled him a joint. Then other people started noticing him, wandering over to pay their respects or whatever (and it was all pretty respectful). But at some point, it became like a receiving line, and here I was sitting next to him, so people started assuming I was somehow "in" with him, so now I was sorta famous, too, even if no one had a clue who I was, I had to be somebody. Meanwhile, I was doing something similar to the guy he had come in with, showing way more interest in him than I would have if he was just another guy at a crowded after hours booze can.
Anyway, no real conclusions here beyond what I started with. Fame is weirdly toxic. It enters the room and it immediately distorts things. Our behaviours change, our expectations change, our desires change. Reality itself has been changed, and probably not for the good. They should teach this stuff in school.
posted by philip-random at 11:01 AM on September 3 [13 favorites]
I think, rather than take a side on any of this (fans bad vs celebs bad), we'd do better to view fame itself as toxic, not good for anyone. Not fatal or anything (although sometimes it is), but just distorting/toxifying so-called reality for all concerned.
I read grumpbear69's comment above about meeting [famous person] and much as I'm amused, I also have to wonder -- why MUST it be so weird, even when it's pleasant? And it does seem that it must be weird. I know my own situations with "famous" people (I've had a few) are all unique, yet on at least one level, badly the same. Which is, I can't just experience them as normal. That is, I have something on them that they don't have on me, which is familiarity (however distorted it may be), which skews things. And, of course, they're doing their own weird dance (does this person recognize me or ...?)
Perhaps my most benign famous person meeting (he was thoroughly world famous in a particular sort of way) was informed by A. their being a pretty cool, grounded person, and B. both of us being rather high and loose (we met over a randomly shared marijuana joint at an after hours booze can). It went as well as it could have. We hung out for a while. He bought me a beer. I rolled him a joint. Then other people started noticing him, wandering over to pay their respects or whatever (and it was all pretty respectful). But at some point, it became like a receiving line, and here I was sitting next to him, so people started assuming I was somehow "in" with him, so now I was sorta famous, too, even if no one had a clue who I was, I had to be somebody. Meanwhile, I was doing something similar to the guy he had come in with, showing way more interest in him than I would have if he was just another guy at a crowded after hours booze can.
Anyway, no real conclusions here beyond what I started with. Fame is weirdly toxic. It enters the room and it immediately distorts things. Our behaviours change, our expectations change, our desires change. Reality itself has been changed, and probably not for the good. They should teach this stuff in school.
posted by philip-random at 11:01 AM on September 3 [13 favorites]
2 brushes with fame:
1) Years ago at Lollapalooza Santiago, I saw Crosses, Chino Moreno's sideband, play and they were awesome. After the set, we were chilling in a sort of back area of the park, and the whole band came walking by, sans Chino. I told them they how much I'd enjoyed the show and they seemed genuinely happy about it, then walked off. A few minutes later, they come back asking me where's a good place to go for a drink in town. I should have said, "Come on, I'll take you" and spent the night with one of my favorite bands, but instead I just reccomended a place (Liguria) and let them fly free.
2) A friend directed a movie starring Rutger Hauer, and brought him along to that year's New Years party at another friend's house. We're all hipsters so played it cool but I'm sure everyone was screaming on the inside about being next to the Nexus 6 as we watched fireworks glitter in the dark near the Andes mountains.
posted by signal at 11:05 AM on September 3 [10 favorites]
1) Years ago at Lollapalooza Santiago, I saw Crosses, Chino Moreno's sideband, play and they were awesome. After the set, we were chilling in a sort of back area of the park, and the whole band came walking by, sans Chino. I told them they how much I'd enjoyed the show and they seemed genuinely happy about it, then walked off. A few minutes later, they come back asking me where's a good place to go for a drink in town. I should have said, "Come on, I'll take you" and spent the night with one of my favorite bands, but instead I just reccomended a place (Liguria) and let them fly free.
2) A friend directed a movie starring Rutger Hauer, and brought him along to that year's New Years party at another friend's house. We're all hipsters so played it cool but I'm sure everyone was screaming on the inside about being next to the Nexus 6 as we watched fireworks glitter in the dark near the Andes mountains.
posted by signal at 11:05 AM on September 3 [10 favorites]
One late afternoon many years ago I was in The Jabberwock bookstore in Boulder looking over the poetry section, and I became aware of a person standing a little to close to me on my right. I looked over, and down a bit, and it was Allen Ginsberg.
'Oh great' I thought, and immediately moved to the far corner of that upstairs room to give him his space and waited for him to finish so I could go back and complete my browsing, and then there was this tremendous clatter on the stairs, and a man in his 20's I can only describe as the perfect stereotype of the tortured young poet burst into the room, rushed up to Ginsberg and started talking about his struggles to write, and how Ginsberg was his muse and Icon, all while pushing his thick black hair back from a high forehead above big luminous eyes and beautiful, chiseled features. He was at least a foot taller than Ginsberg.
Ginsberg barely looked at him, did not turn to face him, and when the young man offered to take him out to dinner in hopes of getting some insights from the Master to overcome his blocks, Ginsberg said he was having dinner with the owner of the bookstore, Tim whose last name I don’t recall, and when the young man asked if he could come along, Ginsberg turned completely away and said "No".
I thought the guy would burst into tears at that point, but he responded with a few very heavy sighs, gathered himself together and left.
I reflected that if Ginsberg was having dinner with the owner that night and it was already late afternoon, he probably wouldn’t be done with the poetry section anytime soon, and I left as well.
posted by jamjam at 11:07 AM on September 3 [10 favorites]
'Oh great' I thought, and immediately moved to the far corner of that upstairs room to give him his space and waited for him to finish so I could go back and complete my browsing, and then there was this tremendous clatter on the stairs, and a man in his 20's I can only describe as the perfect stereotype of the tortured young poet burst into the room, rushed up to Ginsberg and started talking about his struggles to write, and how Ginsberg was his muse and Icon, all while pushing his thick black hair back from a high forehead above big luminous eyes and beautiful, chiseled features. He was at least a foot taller than Ginsberg.
Ginsberg barely looked at him, did not turn to face him, and when the young man offered to take him out to dinner in hopes of getting some insights from the Master to overcome his blocks, Ginsberg said he was having dinner with the owner of the bookstore, Tim whose last name I don’t recall, and when the young man asked if he could come along, Ginsberg turned completely away and said "No".
I thought the guy would burst into tears at that point, but he responded with a few very heavy sighs, gathered himself together and left.
I reflected that if Ginsberg was having dinner with the owner that night and it was already late afternoon, he probably wouldn’t be done with the poetry section anytime soon, and I left as well.
posted by jamjam at 11:07 AM on September 3 [10 favorites]
She's already hit a stumbling block, canceling some European concerts at the last minute so she could perform at the VMAs, leaving fans out travel/hotel costs, etc. I saw an interesting speculation online, which is that whatever team performers have around them when they're in a less famous stage of their career may not be up to the task when they hit the big time, and sometimes it takes some fumbling to get them the right people who will help manage (and shield) them from some of the blows of celebrity. And given that everything is coming very fast, she may not even have the money to hire those people yet (and maybe she's also used to being able to do her own PR via Tiktok that she may not see the need.) I like her music, and I hope she gets to stick around for a while.
posted by PussKillian at 11:16 AM on September 3 [7 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 11:16 AM on September 3 [7 favorites]
I had an improv show this weekend. In the local scene there's a person who comes to a lot of local theater, improv, etc and says hello to the performers and asks for a photo. They asked me for one! This is the first time this has ever happened to me. I am no one. I am literally Not Famous in any way, shape, or form. And yet it was kinda weird? Like I did it, it took 20 seconds, but wow.
I cannot imagine being famous and having to deal with that multiple times a day, every day, for the rest of your life. No thanks.
posted by rhymedirective at 11:19 AM on September 3 [1 favorite]
I cannot imagine being famous and having to deal with that multiple times a day, every day, for the rest of your life. No thanks.
posted by rhymedirective at 11:19 AM on September 3 [1 favorite]
One of the few advantages of being pretty bad with faces is that I simply don't recognize celebrities in public. Other than very famous actors, I barely recognize celebrities while they are actually doing what they are famous for.
I never have to decide if I should bother a famous person whose work I love in the grocery store, because I never know they are in the first place.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:24 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
I never have to decide if I should bother a famous person whose work I love in the grocery store, because I never know they are in the first place.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:24 AM on September 3 [9 favorites]
Being famous would be truly awful, but being rich would be amazing. Being famous without getting rich is just messed up. I hope she's getting rich.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:29 AM on September 3 [14 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:29 AM on September 3 [14 favorites]
I became a Chappell Roan fan because I watched her Tiny Desk Concert (TDC) on NPR. Someone sent me the link.
It was my first exposure to Roan, and it turns out I vastly prefer the less-produced, stripped down, low-fi version of her act. She and her band were amazing! What struck me was there were certain points in the TDC where she seemed just a a bit off her act, a little unsure of how to comport herself between numbers in the NPR TDC studio. Mentioned how hot it was in the studio, there was interplay between Roan and the band, etc. Her patter wasn't completely scripted and slick.
It was extremely charming and it felt like she was a genuine artist, a young woman still inventing this persona, her Ziggy Stardust. I hope she continues to feel genuine like that.
And yeah, Paparazzi suck and parasocial relationships are weird and aren't going away any time soon. I wonder if the parasocial relationships we have these days with celebrities we all "know" aren't a little like the the relationships the ancient Greeks, or Chinese, or Mesoamericans had with their vast pantheon of minor deities, spirits, and demigods.
posted by SoberHighland at 11:31 AM on September 3 [8 favorites]
It was my first exposure to Roan, and it turns out I vastly prefer the less-produced, stripped down, low-fi version of her act. She and her band were amazing! What struck me was there were certain points in the TDC where she seemed just a a bit off her act, a little unsure of how to comport herself between numbers in the NPR TDC studio. Mentioned how hot it was in the studio, there was interplay between Roan and the band, etc. Her patter wasn't completely scripted and slick.
It was extremely charming and it felt like she was a genuine artist, a young woman still inventing this persona, her Ziggy Stardust. I hope she continues to feel genuine like that.
And yeah, Paparazzi suck and parasocial relationships are weird and aren't going away any time soon. I wonder if the parasocial relationships we have these days with celebrities we all "know" aren't a little like the the relationships the ancient Greeks, or Chinese, or Mesoamericans had with their vast pantheon of minor deities, spirits, and demigods.
posted by SoberHighland at 11:31 AM on September 3 [8 favorites]
My daughter works for a cool vintage jewelry place. When she was in NY for Governor's Ball, Chappell Roan came into the store. This was in June, so a bit before the Lollapalooza and TikTok events. My daughter said she basically froze up when she saw CR (she's a fan) and ran to the back of the store to get her shit together. Later, she was glad that she didn't fangirl all over her!
posted by bgribble at 11:32 AM on September 3 [6 favorites]
posted by bgribble at 11:32 AM on September 3 [6 favorites]
I love Kirsten Vangsness! That sounds exactly like I'd imagine meeting her would be. A friend of mine used to live in the LA area and made friends with some dude who was (supposedly?) friends with her. Nothing came of that other than the both of us getting into Criminal Minds, though.
I note that if I had a celebrity doppelganger, it'd be somewhere between her (especially my dress sense) and Daria Morgendorffer.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:33 AM on September 3 [6 favorites]
I note that if I had a celebrity doppelganger, it'd be somewhere between her (especially my dress sense) and Daria Morgendorffer.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:33 AM on September 3 [6 favorites]
I never have to decide if I should bother a famous person whose work I love in the grocery store, because I never know they are in the first place.
In college myself and some friends of mine were approached by a friendly gentleman who asked if we’d watched the recent Green Bay Packers game, which we hadn’t. He continued the conversation with some well meaning but politically incorrect things about me and my wheelchair. Very fatherly and such, telling my friends to take good care of me, etc. He walked away and the only one of us in the group with any facial recognition went, “Was that Brett Favre?!”
Googled it and apparently our college town has a Brett Favre look-a-like of some amount of fame. He seemed slightly disappointed we didn’t “recognize” him.
posted by brook horse at 11:40 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
In college myself and some friends of mine were approached by a friendly gentleman who asked if we’d watched the recent Green Bay Packers game, which we hadn’t. He continued the conversation with some well meaning but politically incorrect things about me and my wheelchair. Very fatherly and such, telling my friends to take good care of me, etc. He walked away and the only one of us in the group with any facial recognition went, “Was that Brett Favre?!”
Googled it and apparently our college town has a Brett Favre look-a-like of some amount of fame. He seemed slightly disappointed we didn’t “recognize” him.
posted by brook horse at 11:40 AM on September 3 [5 favorites]
Have a revenge fantasy. It's merely that, not an effort to think of the world being better.
Public people have fewer protections against intrusions on their privacy.
A coalition of celebrities dig up dirt on paparazzi and invent some more dirt. They have a magazine printed about the dirt. It's called The Gaze and they're carrying it around but they're kind of coy with it. Eventually, the magazine is revealed, making the paparazzi public figures. Serves them right.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:45 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
Public people have fewer protections against intrusions on their privacy.
A coalition of celebrities dig up dirt on paparazzi and invent some more dirt. They have a magazine printed about the dirt. It's called The Gaze and they're carrying it around but they're kind of coy with it. Eventually, the magazine is revealed, making the paparazzi public figures. Serves them right.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:45 AM on September 3 [2 favorites]
>Dear Ms Roan. I have no idea who you are, so please be comforted by the fact that I will walk right by you without acknowledgement, interference or interest.
This is dismissive and snarky and kind of misogynist - I don't see why you needed to call her Ms. or proudly overstate how very uninformed and disinterested you are, and I rather doubt you'd say this to a man, particularly in this tone. She's an actual person having an actual experience with actual threats to her physical safety and she's allowed to talk about it, and doing so doesn't make her conceited or whatever you're implying here
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:53 AM on September 3 [46 favorites]
This is dismissive and snarky and kind of misogynist - I don't see why you needed to call her Ms. or proudly overstate how very uninformed and disinterested you are, and I rather doubt you'd say this to a man, particularly in this tone. She's an actual person having an actual experience with actual threats to her physical safety and she's allowed to talk about it, and doing so doesn't make her conceited or whatever you're implying here
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:53 AM on September 3 [46 favorites]
No no, we have to have one person in any famous person/band thread to tell us that they don't know who X is and is proud of it.
posted by Kitteh at 12:04 PM on September 3 [32 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:04 PM on September 3 [32 favorites]
I've had similar experiences to others in this thread who have been a little bit famous in certain circles, and also dating someone more famous than me, all a long time ago before social media. It was a bit easier, I think.
I find parasocial relationship stressful. Like, I don't want to have that with, say, writers I like. I have a good friend who reads the same genre I do, and she gets all the authors' newsletters and follows them on social media and is part of their Facebook groups, and she's always saying to me, "Did you see what so-and-so said on her Facebook the other day?" and I say, "No. Remember, I don't look at any of that stuff?" I have in the past, with people I really felt I'd click with if we met in person, and my reaction to that has been, "Back away! Just back away!" I think it's maybe mostly a personal thing. I like to know exactly where I stand with people.
That said, I recently struck up a friendly acquaintanceship with a queer/trans writer from The Old Days, a sex writer no less, a fucking hot one no less. We live very far away from each other but they sometimes flirt with me in a really comfortable way that touches on a very hot dynamic. One of my close people, who is convinced this person has a crush on me, is like, "Are you telling me you really wouldn't go to that very far away place if there was a chance of being fucked by Name Of Famous Queer Sex Writer?" And I, having a long time ago dated a famous (in our circles) lesbian writer whose book had changed my life a decade earlier when I was 18, said, "You really can't fuck a famous person (or I can't, anyway) until they're no longer Name Of Famous Queer Sex Writer and are just Name to you."
I like the way the article named celebrity culture as "a pervasive and stubbornly embedded symptom of capitalism," because it's not all about individual behavior. Like so many things, it's about a system we're embedded in, and it's possible to opt in or opt out of it to some degree, and people like the writer up-thread who did not enjoy even a relatively small bit of fame certainly do it, but there's definitely a cost to that.
posted by Well I never at 12:09 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
I find parasocial relationship stressful. Like, I don't want to have that with, say, writers I like. I have a good friend who reads the same genre I do, and she gets all the authors' newsletters and follows them on social media and is part of their Facebook groups, and she's always saying to me, "Did you see what so-and-so said on her Facebook the other day?" and I say, "No. Remember, I don't look at any of that stuff?" I have in the past, with people I really felt I'd click with if we met in person, and my reaction to that has been, "Back away! Just back away!" I think it's maybe mostly a personal thing. I like to know exactly where I stand with people.
That said, I recently struck up a friendly acquaintanceship with a queer/trans writer from The Old Days, a sex writer no less, a fucking hot one no less. We live very far away from each other but they sometimes flirt with me in a really comfortable way that touches on a very hot dynamic. One of my close people, who is convinced this person has a crush on me, is like, "Are you telling me you really wouldn't go to that very far away place if there was a chance of being fucked by Name Of Famous Queer Sex Writer?" And I, having a long time ago dated a famous (in our circles) lesbian writer whose book had changed my life a decade earlier when I was 18, said, "You really can't fuck a famous person (or I can't, anyway) until they're no longer Name Of Famous Queer Sex Writer and are just Name to you."
I like the way the article named celebrity culture as "a pervasive and stubbornly embedded symptom of capitalism," because it's not all about individual behavior. Like so many things, it's about a system we're embedded in, and it's possible to opt in or opt out of it to some degree, and people like the writer up-thread who did not enjoy even a relatively small bit of fame certainly do it, but there's definitely a cost to that.
posted by Well I never at 12:09 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
I share a mutual friend with an EXTREMELY famous person, like sell-out-stadiums famous, who had a moderate-size online PR crisis a while back. This person is rich-rich-rich and adored and uber confident and truly seems to have it all. You'd never even think they LOOK at fan comments, much less feel weird about them. In fact in their PR crisis, a lot of the outrage seemed to spawn and intensify due to the perception that the person appeared not to care about the outrage.
But the truth was the exact opposite - they were absolutely gutted, like leave-the-country-and-hide, deep depression verging on self-harm. The person has a LOT of savvy and connections and resources so they were very intentional about hiding their distress from the public, hence, we the people never had an inkling, and the whole thing blew over and is now a distant memory to the masses.
But when my friend related a few details, it had a deep ring of truth. I used to work in a position where I crossed paths with hundreds of extremely famous people, so I know that stars they're just like us etc, and still, my jaw literally dropped that someone so famous could still be so vulnerable. And at the realization that this person, who literally has everything, came surprisingly close to ending their life that year, entirely because some shitty strangers reacted poorly to ... a thing they read about a person they don't know.
It is SCARY to be *perceived* at a high level, some people out there are absolutely fucking unhinged, and I'm so impressed at Chappell Roan for having the words to articulate it so well and the courage to say it so publicly!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:11 PM on September 3 [23 favorites]
But the truth was the exact opposite - they were absolutely gutted, like leave-the-country-and-hide, deep depression verging on self-harm. The person has a LOT of savvy and connections and resources so they were very intentional about hiding their distress from the public, hence, we the people never had an inkling, and the whole thing blew over and is now a distant memory to the masses.
But when my friend related a few details, it had a deep ring of truth. I used to work in a position where I crossed paths with hundreds of extremely famous people, so I know that stars they're just like us etc, and still, my jaw literally dropped that someone so famous could still be so vulnerable. And at the realization that this person, who literally has everything, came surprisingly close to ending their life that year, entirely because some shitty strangers reacted poorly to ... a thing they read about a person they don't know.
It is SCARY to be *perceived* at a high level, some people out there are absolutely fucking unhinged, and I'm so impressed at Chappell Roan for having the words to articulate it so well and the courage to say it so publicly!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 12:11 PM on September 3 [23 favorites]
No no, we have to have one person in any famous person/band thread to tell us that they don't know who X is and is proud of it.
Unless the famous person is Taylor Swift, in which case we have a dozen middle-aged men telling us they've never heard her music, or heard one song and don't get the hype.
posted by signal at 12:25 PM on September 3 [15 favorites]
Unless the famous person is Taylor Swift, in which case we have a dozen middle-aged men telling us they've never heard her music, or heard one song and don't get the hype.
posted by signal at 12:25 PM on September 3 [15 favorites]
I think a certain amount of parasocial behavior is inevitable, given the monopoly on art held by, basically, billionaires.
Sure, all the artists in the world aren’t billionaires, but billionaires are the gatekeepers of publishing, recording, distribution, marketing, promotion, etc. You can’t make and sell a record, a book, a play, a movie, a painting or a sculpture, not on a big way, without the approval and endorsement of one of maybe a couple thousand people worldwide.
Given that absolutely everybody has some creativity, that’s hecka lot of people sitting on the curb to watch the parade because they literally have no other choice.
The internet was supposed to democratize so many things, and one of those things was art. The death of net neutrality and the impetus to monetization of every promotional platform means people have less and less way to Just Make Art, and thereby consider themselves artists. I would be resentful too, if all I could do is watch.
posted by toodleydoodley at 12:25 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
Sure, all the artists in the world aren’t billionaires, but billionaires are the gatekeepers of publishing, recording, distribution, marketing, promotion, etc. You can’t make and sell a record, a book, a play, a movie, a painting or a sculpture, not on a big way, without the approval and endorsement of one of maybe a couple thousand people worldwide.
Given that absolutely everybody has some creativity, that’s hecka lot of people sitting on the curb to watch the parade because they literally have no other choice.
The internet was supposed to democratize so many things, and one of those things was art. The death of net neutrality and the impetus to monetization of every promotional platform means people have less and less way to Just Make Art, and thereby consider themselves artists. I would be resentful too, if all I could do is watch.
posted by toodleydoodley at 12:25 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
SoberHighland: I became a Chappell Roan fan because I watched her Tiny Desk Concert (TDC) on NPR.
That was really fun, thanks! Also, enjoyed seeing her geek out about NPR before the last song. I had heard of her but never listened before, and the Tiny Desk Concert was a great introduction.
posted by indexy at 12:28 PM on September 3 [5 favorites]
That was really fun, thanks! Also, enjoyed seeing her geek out about NPR before the last song. I had heard of her but never listened before, and the Tiny Desk Concert was a great introduction.
posted by indexy at 12:28 PM on September 3 [5 favorites]
The death of net neutrality and the impetus to monetization of every promotional platform means people have less and less way to Just Make Art, and thereby consider themselves artists.
I'm not sure I get this. I get the billionaire gatekeeper stuff, but in terms of just making art, nah. My first love was moviemaking, including film school in the late 1970s and a few meaningful stabs at getting a career going in the ensuing decade. The HUGE wall I faced was access to the means of production. Cameras, lights, editing facilities -- everything cost a f***ing fortune. Whereas now, I've got everything I need to make a movie in my average (at best) smartphone and a seven or eight year old Windows gaming laptop.
And I can distribute what I do pretty much immediately via the interwebs. Making any money at it? That's a different discussion. But the actual making -- all I need is time and an occasional (free) Youtube tutorial when I come up against a tech issue I can't figure out.
posted by philip-random at 12:48 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure I get this. I get the billionaire gatekeeper stuff, but in terms of just making art, nah. My first love was moviemaking, including film school in the late 1970s and a few meaningful stabs at getting a career going in the ensuing decade. The HUGE wall I faced was access to the means of production. Cameras, lights, editing facilities -- everything cost a f***ing fortune. Whereas now, I've got everything I need to make a movie in my average (at best) smartphone and a seven or eight year old Windows gaming laptop.
And I can distribute what I do pretty much immediately via the interwebs. Making any money at it? That's a different discussion. But the actual making -- all I need is time and an occasional (free) Youtube tutorial when I come up against a tech issue I can't figure out.
posted by philip-random at 12:48 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Deleted the "celebrity misery" comment above and its responses. If you see something like this, please flag it rather than engaging with the comment itself so that we can keep the thread centered around the discussion at hand.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:48 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:48 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
No no, we have to have one person in any famous person/band thread to tell us that they don't know who X is and is proud of it.
Is this a MetaFilter tradition I'd have to have a TV to know about?
posted by box at 12:59 PM on September 3 [28 favorites]
Is this a MetaFilter tradition I'd have to have a TV to know about?
posted by box at 12:59 PM on September 3 [28 favorites]
I'm super happy for Chappell Roan's success. It just looks and sound like everything I used to watch 20 years ago when I went to DIY warehouse shows in condemned buildings. The kids are alright. I don't know about the fame thing -- all the performers back then were just weirdos like the audience, and usually looking for a place to crash and someone to fix their van! Some problems I guess are better to have than others!
posted by alex_skazat at 1:30 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 1:30 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
I'm super happy for Chappell Roan's success. It just looks and sound like everything I used to watch 20 years ago when I went to DIY warehouse shows in condemned buildings.
I'm of two minds about this - you simply don't become a mega pop star without a team of people pushing you - and it ain't 1950 anymore - Chappell Roan knows what she's getting into. However, IMO 'the team' often leans far too hard on false intimacy that recent pop stars have leaned into - because intimacy is the 'easy' button when it comes to creating a base of people who'll buy your vinyl in 11 different colors.
Roan personally probably doesn't have a lot of control over what her 'team' does, and most people aren't cut out for mega-stardom not without a lot of coaching and strong boundaries. But I guess that's the downside. A lot of people 'nope out' way before, because mega-pop stardom is certainly not for everyone.
I don't know any mega-famous people, but the vast majority of the moderately famous people I know treat stardom as more or less a perk, because that's the personality. Some people really enjoy being adored, and there are perks.
I support her putting whatever boundaries she wants though, and doing her best to enforce them, and 'noping out' if it gets too much. She can still make great music without her 'team.'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:59 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
I'm of two minds about this - you simply don't become a mega pop star without a team of people pushing you - and it ain't 1950 anymore - Chappell Roan knows what she's getting into. However, IMO 'the team' often leans far too hard on false intimacy that recent pop stars have leaned into - because intimacy is the 'easy' button when it comes to creating a base of people who'll buy your vinyl in 11 different colors.
Roan personally probably doesn't have a lot of control over what her 'team' does, and most people aren't cut out for mega-stardom not without a lot of coaching and strong boundaries. But I guess that's the downside. A lot of people 'nope out' way before, because mega-pop stardom is certainly not for everyone.
I don't know any mega-famous people, but the vast majority of the moderately famous people I know treat stardom as more or less a perk, because that's the personality. Some people really enjoy being adored, and there are perks.
I support her putting whatever boundaries she wants though, and doing her best to enforce them, and 'noping out' if it gets too much. She can still make great music without her 'team.'.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:59 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
I don't think there is a healthy version of celebrity culture. The rise of parasocial relationships as a marketing ploy has definitely made the situation worse, but the existence of "stars" is built on turning people into ideas and telling people they are relevant to their lives.
We've watched this system turn talented people into emotional wrecks, addicts, and corpses for decades now, but as long as the cash machine keeps printing, it isn't going to stop. The best we can do is refuse to participate ourselves.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:12 PM on September 3 [5 favorites]
We've watched this system turn talented people into emotional wrecks, addicts, and corpses for decades now, but as long as the cash machine keeps printing, it isn't going to stop. The best we can do is refuse to participate ourselves.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:12 PM on September 3 [5 favorites]
And such as Warren Ellis and Neil Gaiman have shown us another dark side of parasociality -- it can provide predators with prey.
posted by humbug at 4:11 PM on September 3 [12 favorites]
posted by humbug at 4:11 PM on September 3 [12 favorites]
But in both cases, these were people whose bread and butter was parasociality -- it not only provided them with victims, it paid the bills. I'm not sure it's a kind of fandom that could have existed thirty years ago. But I daresay that without a very deliberate cultivation of a parasocial relationship with their fans, primarily over the internet, Ellis and Gaiman might have stopped moving units much sooner. My gut tells me this is not true of most actual pop stars.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:27 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:27 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
I cheered a little bit when Chappell Roan said she had boundaries and asked for people to respect them. She is a human being and fame is fucking weird, and everyone deserves space to live their lives, no matter how famous they are.
I just came back from Dragon Con, where I am famous enough that occasionally people will call out to me from across a crowded lobby and/or lose their shit if I am in their proximity. Not nearly as much as, say, Nathan Fillion, who was also there (and who I did not see) or John Cleese (who I did), but enough that I am aware that I "con famous" -- there are contexts in which I am genuinely notable, even if most of the world has no idea who I am.
And guess what: It's stressful! Even if it is by and large positive -- because one of the things we rarely acknowledge is that even positive attention is stressful. It's a shift outside of the normal state of things, and your body doesn't necessarily know the difference between a bunch of people being super happy to see you, and a bunch of people not happy to see you at all. What it knows is that you are suddenly the center of attention, and that puts your body into a state of vigilance.
Likewise parasociality is stressful: A bunch of people acting like they know you when you have no idea who they are. It's the uncanny valley of human relationships, and you are expected to manage it with grace. It's a lot for me, an only marginally famous cis straight white guy. How much more stressful must it be for someone who is other than me, and far more famous to boot.
I'm fortunate that I had a decade plus of being low-grade notable, first from being a newspaper columnist and then a "big name blogger," before my first novel came out and I started becoming nerd famous, and additionally fortunate that "nerd famous" is relatively manageable, and that my rise in fame in that quarter also came across a couple of decades rather than all at once. I had time to grow into it, develop a set of tools and techniques to handle the weirdness of being someone's favorite author (or the one who annoys them the most! I have that too!), and to have a whole lot of those folks in one place at one time. I can't imagine what it would be like to have all of that dumped into my lap when I was 26, like Chappell Roan is.
Or actually I can imagine it: I would have almost certainly fucked it up badly.
posted by jscalzi at 5:04 PM on September 3 [36 favorites]
I just came back from Dragon Con, where I am famous enough that occasionally people will call out to me from across a crowded lobby and/or lose their shit if I am in their proximity. Not nearly as much as, say, Nathan Fillion, who was also there (and who I did not see) or John Cleese (who I did), but enough that I am aware that I "con famous" -- there are contexts in which I am genuinely notable, even if most of the world has no idea who I am.
And guess what: It's stressful! Even if it is by and large positive -- because one of the things we rarely acknowledge is that even positive attention is stressful. It's a shift outside of the normal state of things, and your body doesn't necessarily know the difference between a bunch of people being super happy to see you, and a bunch of people not happy to see you at all. What it knows is that you are suddenly the center of attention, and that puts your body into a state of vigilance.
Likewise parasociality is stressful: A bunch of people acting like they know you when you have no idea who they are. It's the uncanny valley of human relationships, and you are expected to manage it with grace. It's a lot for me, an only marginally famous cis straight white guy. How much more stressful must it be for someone who is other than me, and far more famous to boot.
I'm fortunate that I had a decade plus of being low-grade notable, first from being a newspaper columnist and then a "big name blogger," before my first novel came out and I started becoming nerd famous, and additionally fortunate that "nerd famous" is relatively manageable, and that my rise in fame in that quarter also came across a couple of decades rather than all at once. I had time to grow into it, develop a set of tools and techniques to handle the weirdness of being someone's favorite author (or the one who annoys them the most! I have that too!), and to have a whole lot of those folks in one place at one time. I can't imagine what it would be like to have all of that dumped into my lap when I was 26, like Chappell Roan is.
Or actually I can imagine it: I would have almost certainly fucked it up badly.
posted by jscalzi at 5:04 PM on September 3 [36 favorites]
One of my favorite bits from the article was “If you saw a mall Santa in a men’s room, would you sit on his lap?” That gets both at the absurdity of the situation and of the nature of parasociality: that, even if someone might admit that much of what we think we know about celebrities is a carefully-crafted persona, there might be one (or more) of those personas that so neatly dovetails with our own desires and fantasies that we want to believe that they're real, and that said celebrity would be willing to perform the persona upon our random encounter. (As witness what headspace said above, WRT literally being approached in a bathroom by a fan.) Not to pat myself on the back or anything, but I've been in situations where I could have approached Lou Reed and David Byrne--both of them musicians who were and are hugely important to me personally--and didn't, mostly because I thought that it wouldn't be cool, and also because I wasn't sure that I could have adequately conveyed that importance to them. (And, to be honest, from what little I knew of Reed, I didn't think that that would have gone well.)
Also, WRT what kittens for breakfast said above: that's true about Ellis and Gaiman. Gaiman I mostly only knew about from his interaction with people on social media in recent years until very recently, but Ellis I got to see work on that cultivation during the last few years of the Warren Ellis Forum; he was especially assiduous in cultivating that relationship with up-and-coming writers, journalists at all sorts of different levels, and of course young women. And I very much believe that he closed down the forum (which helped a lot of people make connections that went well beyond Ellis or his work) once he believed that he'd reached a sort of critical mass of fame and fortune and didn't need it any more.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:08 PM on September 3 [6 favorites]
Also, WRT what kittens for breakfast said above: that's true about Ellis and Gaiman. Gaiman I mostly only knew about from his interaction with people on social media in recent years until very recently, but Ellis I got to see work on that cultivation during the last few years of the Warren Ellis Forum; he was especially assiduous in cultivating that relationship with up-and-coming writers, journalists at all sorts of different levels, and of course young women. And I very much believe that he closed down the forum (which helped a lot of people make connections that went well beyond Ellis or his work) once he believed that he'd reached a sort of critical mass of fame and fortune and didn't need it any more.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:08 PM on September 3 [6 favorites]
But to rerail, I don't think a parasocial relationship is something that a pop star necessarily cultivates, or even has the bandwidth to cultivate, and for a pop star it seems to be a bug, not a feature. By which I mean to say, a writer may have time to reply to a tweet, and may benefit financially from cultivating that kind of tie with a reader; a pop star straight up does not have time for that shit, and doesn't need to do it anyway. For a novelist or a writer of comic books, selling yourself is an altogether different animal than it is for someone whose work can be consumed in a 150-second video.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:44 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:44 PM on September 3 [3 favorites]
The death of net neutrality and the impetus to monetization of every promotional platform means people have less and less way to Just Make Art, and thereby consider themselves artists.
It’s easier than ever to Just Make (and publish) Art and many, many people are doing so. And the traditional gatekeepers, while not gone, genuinely are less important than they once were in many domains. But instead of starting out sharing their art with a scene, with a smaller community, people launch it straight into the void, into a decentralized network ecosystem where the popularity of individual things tends naturally to fall into a merciless power law distribution even without the gatekeepers and mysterious algorithms.
Since we all secretly want people at least to notice our art, if not to get rich and famous from it, it does get a bit demoralizing.
posted by atoxyl at 6:03 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
It’s easier than ever to Just Make (and publish) Art and many, many people are doing so. And the traditional gatekeepers, while not gone, genuinely are less important than they once were in many domains. But instead of starting out sharing their art with a scene, with a smaller community, people launch it straight into the void, into a decentralized network ecosystem where the popularity of individual things tends naturally to fall into a merciless power law distribution even without the gatekeepers and mysterious algorithms.
Since we all secretly want people at least to notice our art, if not to get rich and famous from it, it does get a bit demoralizing.
posted by atoxyl at 6:03 PM on September 3 [2 favorites]
I have published some books, and all the fan mail I have gotten have been just lovely. The notes still come every once in a while. Fans of my writing have, by and large, not been particularly intrusive even when they tell me they read and re-read my books. They write me a nice note and then they leave me alone. A few acquaintances have sought me out with copies of my books to autograph.
But I was also well-known in another area, a niche sport, and that situation was sometimes fraught. People get envious of achievement, and they attribute all kinds of motives to the achiever. They said some of the oddest things to me, and I even had some people who developed relationships with me, relationships in which I was not actually a participant. It's really unnerving to introduce yourself to another person and have them say in a significant way, "Oh, I know who you are." Some stalkerish behavior was part (only part--mostly I was bored!) of why I ended up retiring from the sport after 30 years.
But I didn't set out to be good with the idea of becoming well-known. Respected for my craft by other competitors, sure. Well-known? Nah. I just wanted to get really good at something and then crush my opponents :)
I think there may be quite a number of famous people who aren't in it for the fame.
posted by Peach at 7:17 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
But I was also well-known in another area, a niche sport, and that situation was sometimes fraught. People get envious of achievement, and they attribute all kinds of motives to the achiever. They said some of the oddest things to me, and I even had some people who developed relationships with me, relationships in which I was not actually a participant. It's really unnerving to introduce yourself to another person and have them say in a significant way, "Oh, I know who you are." Some stalkerish behavior was part (only part--mostly I was bored!) of why I ended up retiring from the sport after 30 years.
But I didn't set out to be good with the idea of becoming well-known. Respected for my craft by other competitors, sure. Well-known? Nah. I just wanted to get really good at something and then crush my opponents :)
I think there may be quite a number of famous people who aren't in it for the fame.
posted by Peach at 7:17 PM on September 3 [4 favorites]
I know that I'm outside the norm, as it seems that celebrity culture today includes divulging personal information, but I could not be more disinterested in the personal lives of celebrities/bands/authors that I am fans of. I follow a few bands on instagram, and as soon as I see some personal stuff it is an immediate turn-off for me. I don't know why that is. I love seeing stuff from performances or in the studio, things that have to do with the actual craft. But post something about your baby or your dog or something not having to do with your music and I really want to unfollow. Maybe my reversion comes from some formative years with the whole Britney Spears paparazzi stuff. It was such a turn-off seeing them try to pry into her life in such a very personal way.
I do wish people would back off wanting so much info from people they don't really know. It would make everyone's lives a bit easier I think.
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:11 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
I do wish people would back off wanting so much info from people they don't really know. It would make everyone's lives a bit easier I think.
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:11 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
Not to pat myself on the back or anything, but I've been in situations where I could have approached Lou Reed and David Byrne--both of them musicians who were and are hugely important to me personally--and didn't, mostly because I thought that it wouldn't be cool, and also because I wasn't sure that I could have adequately conveyed that importance to them.
Yeah - I have run into a "famous person" or two in the wild just from living in New York, and my instinct has always just been to let them be. Because - they're people, just trying to live their lives and run errands and go out to dinner and shit like that. I wouldn't waylay any other stranger on the street and gush endlessly about how awesome their job is, that would be weird. There are maybe one or two people who, if I did see them, I would just briefly and sincerely thank them for creating some kind of art or music that had a major impact on me; or if there were some kind of "normal-human" interaction I would do with someone famous, maybe I'd be more likely to get over some shyness and do that (I was at a celebratory rally by Stonewall after DOMA passed the Supreme Court, and I somehow ended up with three little flags they were giving away - so when I later bumped into Ian McKellen, I gave him one and then left him alone).
Celebrities are people. People have shit to do sometimes and want to just get through it. People do appreciate if you tell them you like their work, but people also also get uneasy if strangers are weird at them. The problems happen when people forget celebrities' humanity.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:40 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
Yeah - I have run into a "famous person" or two in the wild just from living in New York, and my instinct has always just been to let them be. Because - they're people, just trying to live their lives and run errands and go out to dinner and shit like that. I wouldn't waylay any other stranger on the street and gush endlessly about how awesome their job is, that would be weird. There are maybe one or two people who, if I did see them, I would just briefly and sincerely thank them for creating some kind of art or music that had a major impact on me; or if there were some kind of "normal-human" interaction I would do with someone famous, maybe I'd be more likely to get over some shyness and do that (I was at a celebratory rally by Stonewall after DOMA passed the Supreme Court, and I somehow ended up with three little flags they were giving away - so when I later bumped into Ian McKellen, I gave him one and then left him alone).
Celebrities are people. People have shit to do sometimes and want to just get through it. People do appreciate if you tell them you like their work, but people also also get uneasy if strangers are weird at them. The problems happen when people forget celebrities' humanity.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:40 AM on September 4 [5 favorites]
“ But the actual making -- all I need is time and an occasional (free) Youtube tutorial when I come up against a tech issue I can't figure out.”
That's a good point. I guess the other huge obstacle I would note is time. If you’re below a certain earnings level, if you have kids, etc etc. If you’re poor, you’re using all your time and energy to work, just to stay alive and housed. That’s a real chilling effect for art.
posted by toodleydoodley at 5:28 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
That's a good point. I guess the other huge obstacle I would note is time. If you’re below a certain earnings level, if you have kids, etc etc. If you’re poor, you’re using all your time and energy to work, just to stay alive and housed. That’s a real chilling effect for art.
posted by toodleydoodley at 5:28 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
It feels quite odd to use this particular thread as an opportunity to gleefully post one’s totally cool fleeting celebrity encounters and nothing else. (Not referring to posts like jamjam’s, which I think are very relevant.)
I ran into the creator of a relatively obscure piece of fiction in an unexpected place, and only recognized them because they were wearing a t-shirt of the thing, and I said I was a fan as I passed by. They said thanks but were also very visibly flustered by the brief interaction. I regretted it instantly, and it was about 10 seconds of chatter. I’ve always been put off by parasocial fan culture and this really drove home just how weird it is to approach a stranger like that, regardless of the greater context.
I first heard of Chappell Roan from an acquaintance who was very celebrity-oriented and seemed to take it personally when I casually said I wasn’t interested in meeting with or knowing celebrities. That person was pushy and overly familiar with me, a simple random. Not sure how that person is coping with Roan’s statements, but when those statements came out it all made a lot of sense to me.
posted by throwitawayurthegarbageman at 5:32 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
I ran into the creator of a relatively obscure piece of fiction in an unexpected place, and only recognized them because they were wearing a t-shirt of the thing, and I said I was a fan as I passed by. They said thanks but were also very visibly flustered by the brief interaction. I regretted it instantly, and it was about 10 seconds of chatter. I’ve always been put off by parasocial fan culture and this really drove home just how weird it is to approach a stranger like that, regardless of the greater context.
I first heard of Chappell Roan from an acquaintance who was very celebrity-oriented and seemed to take it personally when I casually said I wasn’t interested in meeting with or knowing celebrities. That person was pushy and overly familiar with me, a simple random. Not sure how that person is coping with Roan’s statements, but when those statements came out it all made a lot of sense to me.
posted by throwitawayurthegarbageman at 5:32 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
> This is exactly how I feel about men complaining about their little men's problems like the male loneliness epidemic
>> Metafilter’s already made it amply clear that there’s almost as many people here who resent men talking about that as are being crappy about this, to be honest.
That article isn't the best example of talking about men's loneliness since it quickly detours into "here's what's wrong with feminism today" progressive-bashing ragebait. (It is the NYT after all.) I doubt how much it really cares about the real issue.
Like, imagine this post was an article that said, "we need to improve the way we talk about and interact with celebrities because they don't deserve the level of scrutiny imposed on them" written by Kevin Spacey.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:07 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
>> Metafilter’s already made it amply clear that there’s almost as many people here who resent men talking about that as are being crappy about this, to be honest.
That article isn't the best example of talking about men's loneliness since it quickly detours into "here's what's wrong with feminism today" progressive-bashing ragebait. (It is the NYT after all.) I doubt how much it really cares about the real issue.
Like, imagine this post was an article that said, "we need to improve the way we talk about and interact with celebrities because they don't deserve the level of scrutiny imposed on them" written by Kevin Spacey.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:07 AM on September 4 [4 favorites]
Here's the thing about intrusive fans:
* Assumes the celebrity reciprocates the love and interest they feel.
* Doesn't think about how they are just one of the many other fans putting demands on the celebrity.
* Expects their wants to be satisfied immediately despite the inappropriateness of the time and place.
* Reacts sullenly or angrily when reality doesn't meet their expectations.
* Has a simplified hero or villain narrative and doesn't acknowledge that their feelings come from a public image rather than the private person.
These are traits I associate with people who aren't yet adults. Among other things, being obsessed with celebrities is childish.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:27 AM on September 4 [6 favorites]
* Assumes the celebrity reciprocates the love and interest they feel.
* Doesn't think about how they are just one of the many other fans putting demands on the celebrity.
* Expects their wants to be satisfied immediately despite the inappropriateness of the time and place.
* Reacts sullenly or angrily when reality doesn't meet their expectations.
* Has a simplified hero or villain narrative and doesn't acknowledge that their feelings come from a public image rather than the private person.
These are traits I associate with people who aren't yet adults. Among other things, being obsessed with celebrities is childish.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:27 AM on September 4 [6 favorites]
Among other things, being obsessed with celebrities is childish.
I think there are degrees here - there are some people who do some amazing work that may impact us profoundly, and it's natural to be a little jittery when you bump into that person. Peter Gabriel does profoundly amazing work that helped get me through high school, and if I ever ran into him I'd be flustered because holy shit it's you and you created the thing that kept me sane when my life was shit aaaaaah. That's not childish if you're a little emotionally overwhelmed in that moment, that's human.
It's what you do with those emotions that's the kicker. If I did ever meet Peter Gabriel I'd probably be all "omigod it's you", but then just thank him for some amazing music. Maybe I'd offer to buy him a coffee or something as a gesture of returning the favor. It's if I then insisted on hanging out with him while he drank that coffee, or demanded a selfie, or tried to follow him home....that's when it would get weird.
In his old podcast, Adam Savage once discussed "how people interact with celebrities" because he's had experience with both ends of the equation. And he had one of the most clever and charming encounters I've ever heard - he was riding his bike around San Francisco and at some point spotted Joie Lee, who he was a big fan of. She was standing on the sidewalk waiting for the light to change, and he rode up and asked "Excuse me - are you Joie Lee?"
"I am."
"I love your work!" he gushed. Then said "have a wonderful night!" and rode off.
He expressed his appreciation in a non-creepy way, and then left her alone. That is perfectly fine.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:05 AM on September 4 [9 favorites]
I think there are degrees here - there are some people who do some amazing work that may impact us profoundly, and it's natural to be a little jittery when you bump into that person. Peter Gabriel does profoundly amazing work that helped get me through high school, and if I ever ran into him I'd be flustered because holy shit it's you and you created the thing that kept me sane when my life was shit aaaaaah. That's not childish if you're a little emotionally overwhelmed in that moment, that's human.
It's what you do with those emotions that's the kicker. If I did ever meet Peter Gabriel I'd probably be all "omigod it's you", but then just thank him for some amazing music. Maybe I'd offer to buy him a coffee or something as a gesture of returning the favor. It's if I then insisted on hanging out with him while he drank that coffee, or demanded a selfie, or tried to follow him home....that's when it would get weird.
In his old podcast, Adam Savage once discussed "how people interact with celebrities" because he's had experience with both ends of the equation. And he had one of the most clever and charming encounters I've ever heard - he was riding his bike around San Francisco and at some point spotted Joie Lee, who he was a big fan of. She was standing on the sidewalk waiting for the light to change, and he rode up and asked "Excuse me - are you Joie Lee?"
"I am."
"I love your work!" he gushed. Then said "have a wonderful night!" and rode off.
He expressed his appreciation in a non-creepy way, and then left her alone. That is perfectly fine.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:05 AM on September 4 [9 favorites]
even positive attention is stressful
Yes! That's it, in a nutshell.
I have interacted both with artists/musicians that have smaller followings, and a handful of more famous people, over the course of my life. I hope they found these interactions non-bothersome, or at best, charmingly awkward.
I like to compliment people on their shoes, if I am standing around in silence near them waiting for something like an elevator or a cab, and I genuinely like their shoes (of course.) It will surprise you how many people *light up* when you tell them they have good taste in footwear.
posted by 41swans at 8:15 AM on September 4 [7 favorites]
Yes! That's it, in a nutshell.
I have interacted both with artists/musicians that have smaller followings, and a handful of more famous people, over the course of my life. I hope they found these interactions non-bothersome, or at best, charmingly awkward.
I like to compliment people on their shoes, if I am standing around in silence near them waiting for something like an elevator or a cab, and I genuinely like their shoes (of course.) It will surprise you how many people *light up* when you tell them they have good taste in footwear.
posted by 41swans at 8:15 AM on September 4 [7 favorites]
I like to compliment people on their shoes, if I am standing around in silence near them waiting for something like an elevator or a cab, and I genuinely like their shoes (of course.) It will surprise you how many people *light up* when you tell them they have good taste in footwear.
Heh - my father also went with the "shoes" angle when he ran into Spike Lee once. Only in that case he was referencing those commercials Spike did for Nike with Michael Jordan; he said that he waited until they made eye contact, and then Dad asked him, "So, is it the shoes?" He said Spike just laughed and shook his hand and they both went on their separate ways.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:44 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
Heh - my father also went with the "shoes" angle when he ran into Spike Lee once. Only in that case he was referencing those commercials Spike did for Nike with Michael Jordan; he said that he waited until they made eye contact, and then Dad asked him, "So, is it the shoes?" He said Spike just laughed and shook his hand and they both went on their separate ways.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:44 AM on September 4 [3 favorites]
I remember reading Robert Pirsig's sequel to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". He has a bit in there where he went to meet Robert Redford who was interested in the book for a movie. He describes how Redford telling him how people "Goon up" (or something like that) meeting him. And then then Pirzig's just gushes all over him and tells him he can have the book. One "famous star" gushing over another one.
posted by aleph at 10:00 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]
posted by aleph at 10:00 AM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Maybe if they just can't see your face at all, it works?
Singing cowboy Orville Peck is living the dream. To the best of my knowledge he's never been unmasked and his birth name is unknown to the public.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:30 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Singing cowboy Orville Peck is living the dream. To the best of my knowledge he's never been unmasked and his birth name is unknown to the public.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:30 PM on September 4 [1 favorite]
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Orville Peck's birth name was unmasked (not sure if that's the best word choice, but here we are) a couple years ago.
posted by box at 3:02 PM on September 4 [5 favorites]
posted by box at 3:02 PM on September 4 [5 favorites]
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