We will need to accept a little bit of cognitive dissonance
September 17, 2024 11:48 AM Subscribe
Is Trump’s power over the Republican Party waning, is Trumpism disintegrating? Let’s slow down a little bit. It’s important to note that almost all of these public defections are coming from relatively low-level and / or *former* Republican officials. Trumpism is still firmly in charge of the power centers of conservatism and dominates GOP politics. And yet, there was no comparable level of open dissent prior to the 2020 election; and in 2016, the opposite happened, as there was considerable hostility towards Trump among Republicans and leadings conservatives initially, right after Trump had come down the golden escalator to announce he was running for president – yet by the time of the election, almost all of them had united behind Trump as the undisputed leader of the Right. from Liz Cheney and the Problem of the Anti-Trump Republican [Democracy Americana]
you make a really great point (analogy?) Naberius and I wish more "regular people" who vote/support the Reps/Trump would understand this. They DO.NOT.CARE. about regular people and will happily throw any supporter under the bus the second it benefits them to do so. They will ruin this country for all regular people for the enrichment of their cronies. The economy will falter etc., etc., but it will be the Immigrants or Gays or whatever. We are Indiana Jones, and all of the "enemies" we are being told to blame are that random dude he is fighting. "Shoot them both" could be a subtitle for P2025.
posted by supermedusa at 12:16 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 12:16 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
It lost me at "Republicans who hold the line against Trump deserve respect."
No, they absolutely do not.
posted by Pedantzilla at 12:30 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
No, they absolutely do not.
posted by Pedantzilla at 12:30 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
The worry I have is that in an attempt to keep the Never Trumper Republicans in the Democratic Party the party will shift more to the right on social and economic issues. The Dems are already fairly center-right, and it does not bode well if in 2026 the choices are Fascist and Not-As-Fascist.
However, the important thing right now is to get Trump and the rest of the MAGA Fascist party as far out of power as possible. The enemy of the enemy is not always my friend, but right now I'll take all the help we can get.
posted by SansPoint at 12:36 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
However, the important thing right now is to get Trump and the rest of the MAGA Fascist party as far out of power as possible. The enemy of the enemy is not always my friend, but right now I'll take all the help we can get.
posted by SansPoint at 12:36 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
David Brock wrote (in his new book of course) that Liz Cheney blocked January 6 scrutiny of Ginni Thomas.
Never-Trump Republicans are not the heroes they believe themselves to be. They are merely a party without a constituency (and thus powerless), and they should either get a constituency or learn to accept and enjoy the wilderness they find themselves in.
The GOP has for a long time exemplified Democrat and former Speaker Sam Rayburn's salient political advice: "If you want to get along, go along." (emphasis mine)
posted by zaixfeep at 12:46 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
Never-Trump Republicans are not the heroes they believe themselves to be. They are merely a party without a constituency (and thus powerless), and they should either get a constituency or learn to accept and enjoy the wilderness they find themselves in.
The GOP has for a long time exemplified Democrat and former Speaker Sam Rayburn's salient political advice: "If you want to get along, go along." (emphasis mine)
posted by zaixfeep at 12:46 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
When Judge Roy Moore was running for the Senate in Alabama, after revelations about his harassing and assaulting a whole lot of women and girls came out, the people elected a Democrat instead. That lasted 6 years, and then they elected our dumbest Senator, Tommy Tuberville.
I suspect that the current Never-Trumper/Democrat alliance to last just about as long as that one did- one election only.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:55 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
I suspect that the current Never-Trumper/Democrat alliance to last just about as long as that one did- one election only.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:55 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
What I suspect an average GOP precinct meeting sounds like.
posted by zaixfeep at 1:08 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 1:08 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
Weird article. Not sure how someone can say that someone like Cheney "deserves" our "respect and support" and then in the same breath go on to describe her desire to uphold white Christian elite rule and her same support of authoritarian and anti-democratic tendencies as Trump.
None of this ever had anything to do with policy or even Trump being "dangerous for democracy" or whatever. These people just think that he's crass and trashy and off-putting. They think his supporters are trashy pig people. He says weird and unhinged shit and gets headlines for all the wrong reasons. He is bad for the republican brand. J6 was extremely embarrassing for them. They miss when it was the Brooks Brothers riots of 2000 - now that was a proper attempt to violently subvert an election.
It is for these aesthetic reasons he is "unqualified" to be president, but things like the heritage foundation's policy set and project 2025 are otherwise pretty much fine to them.
posted by windbox at 1:09 PM on September 17 [23 favorites]
None of this ever had anything to do with policy or even Trump being "dangerous for democracy" or whatever. These people just think that he's crass and trashy and off-putting. They think his supporters are trashy pig people. He says weird and unhinged shit and gets headlines for all the wrong reasons. He is bad for the republican brand. J6 was extremely embarrassing for them. They miss when it was the Brooks Brothers riots of 2000 - now that was a proper attempt to violently subvert an election.
It is for these aesthetic reasons he is "unqualified" to be president, but things like the heritage foundation's policy set and project 2025 are otherwise pretty much fine to them.
posted by windbox at 1:09 PM on September 17 [23 favorites]
I dunno, the article seems to be a long way of saying that, even for some otherwise terrible and opportunist Rs, lines were eventually crossed.
I'm glad there are some who have lines here. I wish there were more of them tbh.
posted by mazola at 1:09 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
I'm glad there are some who have lines here. I wish there were more of them tbh.
posted by mazola at 1:09 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
I will never respect them. Too little too late. That we had to get HERE? For them to sign a letter? Fuck them.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:25 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:25 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
Consider the rats deserting the sinking ship. Their only goal is saving themselves. They may not have put the hole in the bottom but they did nothing to keep it from happening to begin with.
If you try to be nice to them, they'll bite you. After all, they're just rats.
posted by tommasz at 1:39 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
If you try to be nice to them, they'll bite you. After all, they're just rats.
posted by tommasz at 1:39 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
The difference between Cheney and MAGA is that some vampires still honor the archaic tradition of needing to be invited in before they can prey upon the resdents inside.
posted by zaixfeep at 1:48 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 1:48 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
Most Republicans, as in the overwhelming majority, now live in MAGA land.
They literally believe that America will end (somehow) if Democrats are elected.
There is no fixing America until something is done about Fox News et al, those “media” orgs that create the absolutely insane propaganda bubble these people live in. Until these folks can actually vote D once every 1-2 decades as a corrective, their party will continue to slide into insanity.
No idea how we fix that, so I don’t like our odds.
posted by teece303 at 2:56 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
They literally believe that America will end (somehow) if Democrats are elected.
There is no fixing America until something is done about Fox News et al, those “media” orgs that create the absolutely insane propaganda bubble these people live in. Until these folks can actually vote D once every 1-2 decades as a corrective, their party will continue to slide into insanity.
No idea how we fix that, so I don’t like our odds.
posted by teece303 at 2:56 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
Never-Trump Republicans are not the heroes they believe themselves to be.
I know another veteran who by all accounts is a terrible human being in certain regards. I'm trying to convince him into being a good human being, and what I tell him, every time I talk to him, is that he just has to be a better human being than he was yesterday. And then again. And then again. That nobody is asking him to be perfect, but if he moves forward, one step at a time, he will eventually get to become someone that we will be proud to know.
Almost invariably, he tells me that he's never going to be a good person, so there's no point in trying. And then he goes back to drinking and being shitty to people.
I see some value in people who are trying to be better than they were yesterday, even if they aren't the heroes they believe themselves to be. I hope that their definition of hero will change as they change. God knows mine did. But even if it doesn't, I still think there's value in them being better than they used to be. Because there's enough people wallowing in their shittiness in the world to be grateful for people that aren't.
I'm never going to be able to respect Dick Cheney, no matter what good he does now. He killed too many of my friends. But I can have a grudging hope for people like Liz Cheney that eventually they will make a full journey to the other side. Will they make it all the way? No, probably not. But it'd be nice if they did.
posted by corb at 3:08 PM on September 17 [33 favorites]
I know another veteran who by all accounts is a terrible human being in certain regards. I'm trying to convince him into being a good human being, and what I tell him, every time I talk to him, is that he just has to be a better human being than he was yesterday. And then again. And then again. That nobody is asking him to be perfect, but if he moves forward, one step at a time, he will eventually get to become someone that we will be proud to know.
Almost invariably, he tells me that he's never going to be a good person, so there's no point in trying. And then he goes back to drinking and being shitty to people.
I see some value in people who are trying to be better than they were yesterday, even if they aren't the heroes they believe themselves to be. I hope that their definition of hero will change as they change. God knows mine did. But even if it doesn't, I still think there's value in them being better than they used to be. Because there's enough people wallowing in their shittiness in the world to be grateful for people that aren't.
I'm never going to be able to respect Dick Cheney, no matter what good he does now. He killed too many of my friends. But I can have a grudging hope for people like Liz Cheney that eventually they will make a full journey to the other side. Will they make it all the way? No, probably not. But it'd be nice if they did.
posted by corb at 3:08 PM on September 17 [33 favorites]
Fuck that. I'm happy for the far right nutbunnies to vote against the fascist takeover, for whatever reason. It's not my first rodeo, and I know that the dems are much happier to lean farther right than left. Still irritating. Whatever it takes to keep the fuckers out of office. The only one looking out for my best interest is me.
posted by evilDoug at 3:22 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 3:22 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
But I can have a grudging hope for people like Liz Cheney that eventually they will make a full journey to the other side. Will they make it all the way? No, probably not. But it'd be nice if they did.
Not supporting Trump--even actively attacking Trump--is a low bar. So so low, so easy, even for Republicans. Besides hating on Trump, what has Liz Cheney done that is good? Seriously, what?
These Never Trumpers are simply positioning themselves for when Trump finally exits the stage (hopefully for all of us in November). Their seemingly reasonable stances are a way for them to leverage power with the Democrats as well as media pundits. News networks love Never Trumpers, as they get to have a "balanced" view.
But seriously, Liz Cheney sucks. So she doesn't like Trump. Big deal. Most people don't.
posted by zardoz at 4:11 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
Not supporting Trump--even actively attacking Trump--is a low bar. So so low, so easy, even for Republicans. Besides hating on Trump, what has Liz Cheney done that is good? Seriously, what?
These Never Trumpers are simply positioning themselves for when Trump finally exits the stage (hopefully for all of us in November). Their seemingly reasonable stances are a way for them to leverage power with the Democrats as well as media pundits. News networks love Never Trumpers, as they get to have a "balanced" view.
But seriously, Liz Cheney sucks. So she doesn't like Trump. Big deal. Most people don't.
posted by zardoz at 4:11 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
Indy and the thug he's fighting both realize they need to cooperate to shoot that guy or they're both dead, so Indy levels the thug's gun arm at him and the thug pulls the trigger.
I've seen this a million times but never noticed that the thug is cooperating with Indy! I just thought Indy forced the thug's arm over through brute strength.
posted by zardoz at 4:29 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
I've seen this a million times but never noticed that the thug is cooperating with Indy! I just thought Indy forced the thug's arm over through brute strength.
posted by zardoz at 4:29 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
I listen to the Bulwark a lot and "they range the political spectrum from center left to center right" (read: center-right). It is fascinating to listen to them, almost get it. But they never quite seem to grok that we're in this place because they trusted these people and put them there in the first place. One of the people, Mona, really came close, and even admitted that most recently she is questioning a lot of things about what she thought she knew, but I don't think people so easily will discount their past 20+ years of actions in power and how they led to it.
Sometimes the bulwark is interesting, they're best when they're beating the anti-trump drum. But sometimes it's just catty schoolgirl shit. That said, they are a good source of anti-trump news (imo), but then they start talking about what they're for, and it's like ewww. And yeah the Ginni Thomas shit is 100% what I mean. They still back the same people, Trump got "traditional" conservatives in, who push the pro-life agenda. It's just that he's a little too vocal and rips the veneer, self-delusion that's required to be a Republican/"center"-right.
It's like when you have Dick Cheney advocating Harris. Like yeah, of course he will, because she's just another centrist. But to me, they're still playing the game and just see Trump as another pawn/piece to be used in manipulating the center-left/left. It's disgusting and what choice do we have.
I look forward to 2069 when Barron Trump Jr is the "rational center-right" and somehow people worse than already exist (straight up outspoken nazis who admit it publicly?) are taking the Republican slot. And we get suckered into voting for Barron Jr (well hopefully I'll be dead by then, good luck everyone in the future).
posted by symbioid at 4:34 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
Sometimes the bulwark is interesting, they're best when they're beating the anti-trump drum. But sometimes it's just catty schoolgirl shit. That said, they are a good source of anti-trump news (imo), but then they start talking about what they're for, and it's like ewww. And yeah the Ginni Thomas shit is 100% what I mean. They still back the same people, Trump got "traditional" conservatives in, who push the pro-life agenda. It's just that he's a little too vocal and rips the veneer, self-delusion that's required to be a Republican/"center"-right.
It's like when you have Dick Cheney advocating Harris. Like yeah, of course he will, because she's just another centrist. But to me, they're still playing the game and just see Trump as another pawn/piece to be used in manipulating the center-left/left. It's disgusting and what choice do we have.
I look forward to 2069 when Barron Trump Jr is the "rational center-right" and somehow people worse than already exist (straight up outspoken nazis who admit it publicly?) are taking the Republican slot. And we get suckered into voting for Barron Jr (well hopefully I'll be dead by then, good luck everyone in the future).
posted by symbioid at 4:34 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
"The difference between (Dick) Cheney and MAGA is that some vampires still honor the archaic tradition of needing to be invited in before they can prey upon the resdents inside. shoot you in the face with a shotgun blast."
(FTFY)
posted by symbioid at 4:38 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
(FTFY)
posted by symbioid at 4:38 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
You do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them."
posted by Foosnark at 6:25 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 6:25 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
Tim Miller's _Why We Did It: A Travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell _ is a book about why he supported the Republican Party even though he's gay, and how he got out.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:26 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:26 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
Republicans who hold the line against Trump deserve respect.
And this is why Harris is one, just one, dumb media story away from having her entire campaign derailed by corporate media that gives infinite second chances to fascism.
The 2016 energy is radiating so much it glows.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:42 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
And this is why Harris is one, just one, dumb media story away from having her entire campaign derailed by corporate media that gives infinite second chances to fascism.
The 2016 energy is radiating so much it glows.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:42 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
It lost me at "Republicans who hold the line against Trump deserve respect."
No, they absolutely do not.
Come the fuck on!
I know some here may be similarly tempted, but you're really missing out if you don't go deeper into this essay.
This section crystallized for me how we can understand how the Liz Cheneys may be indispensable in keeping us from undergoing a right-wing coup d'stat, even though we should not accept Liz Cheney's definition of "democracy" as our definition of the same.
Most importantly, there are two conflicts playing out simultaneously that will determine the future of American society. There is the struggle to protect democratic self-government against a rightwing authoritarian assault led by Trump – and in that struggle, all (small-d) democrats now find themselves on the same side with the Cheneys. But there is also the fundamental conflict over *what kind* of democracy America should be – over how much democracy and for whom. And in that struggle, the fault lines are different, as most prominent anti-Trump Republicans have always pursued a vision of continued wealthy white elite domination that is incompatible with the egalitarian idea of multiracial pluralism. We therefore need to be careful not to lionize them to the point where it becomes harder to realize the promise of a democracy in which the status of an individual is no longer determined significantly by race, gender, wealth, or religion. Liz Cheney, to put it bluntly, should not be allowed to define the boundaries of American democracy going forward.
posted by jonp72 at 8:51 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
No, they absolutely do not.
Come the fuck on!
I know some here may be similarly tempted, but you're really missing out if you don't go deeper into this essay.
This section crystallized for me how we can understand how the Liz Cheneys may be indispensable in keeping us from undergoing a right-wing coup d'stat, even though we should not accept Liz Cheney's definition of "democracy" as our definition of the same.
Most importantly, there are two conflicts playing out simultaneously that will determine the future of American society. There is the struggle to protect democratic self-government against a rightwing authoritarian assault led by Trump – and in that struggle, all (small-d) democrats now find themselves on the same side with the Cheneys. But there is also the fundamental conflict over *what kind* of democracy America should be – over how much democracy and for whom. And in that struggle, the fault lines are different, as most prominent anti-Trump Republicans have always pursued a vision of continued wealthy white elite domination that is incompatible with the egalitarian idea of multiracial pluralism. We therefore need to be careful not to lionize them to the point where it becomes harder to realize the promise of a democracy in which the status of an individual is no longer determined significantly by race, gender, wealth, or religion. Liz Cheney, to put it bluntly, should not be allowed to define the boundaries of American democracy going forward.
posted by jonp72 at 8:51 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
David Brock wrote (in his new book of course) that Liz Cheney blocked January 6 scrutiny of Ginni Thomas.
It's also mentioned in the article.
She was very effective at making that case against Trump as vice chairwoman of the January 6 Committee in 2022. But she was also instrumental in making sure the Committee kept a narrow focus on Trump, a very small number of unhinged people around him, and fascistic militants like the Proud Boys – rather than exploring the complicity of GOP elected officials and rightwing elites more broadly. This manifested, for instance, in her refusal to investigate Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, for her role in January 6, as she was actively involved in the multi-level scheme to nullify the results of the election.
Liz Cheney can be both essential to making the January 6th Committee possible, but also totally complicit in preventing it from affecting the Republican Establishment too much.
posted by jonp72 at 8:57 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
It's also mentioned in the article.
She was very effective at making that case against Trump as vice chairwoman of the January 6 Committee in 2022. But she was also instrumental in making sure the Committee kept a narrow focus on Trump, a very small number of unhinged people around him, and fascistic militants like the Proud Boys – rather than exploring the complicity of GOP elected officials and rightwing elites more broadly. This manifested, for instance, in her refusal to investigate Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, for her role in January 6, as she was actively involved in the multi-level scheme to nullify the results of the election.
Liz Cheney can be both essential to making the January 6th Committee possible, but also totally complicit in preventing it from affecting the Republican Establishment too much.
posted by jonp72 at 8:57 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
We are happy to have Republicans like Liz Cheney voting for Harris. I have no cognitive dissonance. I still don't like her. I don't like her father. I don't like her politics. I don't like her Party. She's to be credited for being on the side of the USA, but that's about as far as I support her.
MAGA is here to stay. 38% of this country will need deprogramming, and that's unlikely to happen in my lifetime.
posted by Chuffy at 9:10 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
MAGA is here to stay. 38% of this country will need deprogramming, and that's unlikely to happen in my lifetime.
posted by Chuffy at 9:10 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
> Most Republicans, as in the overwhelming majority, now live in MAGA land.
> They literally believe that America will end (somehow) if Democrats are elected.
>There is no fixing America until something is done about Fox News et al, those “media” orgs that create the absolutely insane propaganda bubble these people live in.
====
I wanted to highlight this because it goes from saying "the right is crazy for thinking we want to end America" to saying "we need to destroy the primary cultural arm of the right".
The left literally does want to destroy "America" ... As defined by Fox News. So they're actually correct when they say that this election may be their last chance to create their theocracy which will take us 70 years backwards to the time when my relationship was illegal. (For a while at least?)
=====
posted by constraint at 10:20 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
> They literally believe that America will end (somehow) if Democrats are elected.
>There is no fixing America until something is done about Fox News et al, those “media” orgs that create the absolutely insane propaganda bubble these people live in.
====
I wanted to highlight this because it goes from saying "the right is crazy for thinking we want to end America" to saying "we need to destroy the primary cultural arm of the right".
The left literally does want to destroy "America" ... As defined by Fox News. So they're actually correct when they say that this election may be their last chance to create their theocracy which will take us 70 years backwards to the time when my relationship was illegal. (For a while at least?)
=====
posted by constraint at 10:20 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
As one CHUD gloated while Biden was in media-aided freefall, "We're going to repeal the 20th Century."
It's such a perfect catch-all descriptor of the nightmare they want, isn't it? Repeal the Warren Court in toto, and wipe out its role in granting fundamental rights to so many groups in so many cases. Reverse the civil rights movements, representation in legislative bodies and in media, and legal protections for non-whites, non-males, non-straights, non-cis, non-the-RIGHT-KIND-of-Christians. Dismantle the social safety net that keeps so much of America from drowning. Bring back an era where "Because we say that Jesus said so" -- or, as often, simply "Because we say so" -- is a justification for secular law and prohibitions on where Those People can work, live, eat, sit, learn, marry and be.
The Republican Party has been championing those causes for decades. Many of them have simply preferred to use coded language and a piecemeal approach to accomplish those goals, whittling away and eroding wherever possible, rather than Trumping out "Hey, why don't we just deport or criminalize all the [insert slur here]s?" But the Reverse Atwater has kicked in due to the coarsening of the discourse and the radicalization of the right; the base doesn't _want_ coded language any more. They won't settle for less than the full slurs, the full return of their privileged status, and a return of control over those they perceive to be lessers -- and, now as then, many view force as a valid method of regaining that control.
And if the coded methods, the subtler attempted takeover of the law and the culture, the steady erosion rather than the hamfisted open bigotry were still in use, the Liz Cheneys and the NeverTrumpers would remain wholly on board with their former party. Every one of them.
posted by delfin at 6:11 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
It's such a perfect catch-all descriptor of the nightmare they want, isn't it? Repeal the Warren Court in toto, and wipe out its role in granting fundamental rights to so many groups in so many cases. Reverse the civil rights movements, representation in legislative bodies and in media, and legal protections for non-whites, non-males, non-straights, non-cis, non-the-RIGHT-KIND-of-Christians. Dismantle the social safety net that keeps so much of America from drowning. Bring back an era where "Because we say that Jesus said so" -- or, as often, simply "Because we say so" -- is a justification for secular law and prohibitions on where Those People can work, live, eat, sit, learn, marry and be.
The Republican Party has been championing those causes for decades. Many of them have simply preferred to use coded language and a piecemeal approach to accomplish those goals, whittling away and eroding wherever possible, rather than Trumping out "Hey, why don't we just deport or criminalize all the [insert slur here]s?" But the Reverse Atwater has kicked in due to the coarsening of the discourse and the radicalization of the right; the base doesn't _want_ coded language any more. They won't settle for less than the full slurs, the full return of their privileged status, and a return of control over those they perceive to be lessers -- and, now as then, many view force as a valid method of regaining that control.
And if the coded methods, the subtler attempted takeover of the law and the culture, the steady erosion rather than the hamfisted open bigotry were still in use, the Liz Cheneys and the NeverTrumpers would remain wholly on board with their former party. Every one of them.
posted by delfin at 6:11 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
I am reminded of the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Indiana Jones (That's us. Yay us.) is rolling around with a thug (Never Trumper Republicans) on top of a bar in Nepal, struggling for control of a pistol, when the leader of the Nazis (Donald Trump, obviously) who's looking on says, "Shoot them. Shoot them both."
Flagged as fantastic.
posted by Gelatin at 8:10 AM on September 18
Flagged as fantastic.
posted by Gelatin at 8:10 AM on September 18
MAGA was an organic evolution: Southern Strategy, Lee Atwater modifications to said strategy, Reaganomics, killing the Fairness Doctrine, Fox "news," Newt Gingrich, Grover Norquist, the Tea Party, birtherism->FDT. The reason FDT is so popular, and his support is unwavering, is because pretty much everything you see in terms of policy and social change (mostly) is what Republicans have wanted for at least the last 50 years (probably longer). "Moderate" Republicans (these are now considered what we called Blue Dog Democrats in the past) are simply trying to keep the power structure intact, because they have lost it all to one man. Even worse is his VP candidate...wholly owned by Peter Thiel, and likely successor to an elderly, clearly demented and unfit man who has never polled less than 46% in this campaign.
posted by Chuffy at 8:37 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 8:37 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
None of this ever had anything to do with policy or even Trump being "dangerous for democracy" or whatever. These people just think that he's crass and trashy and off-putting. They think his supporters are trashy pig people. He says weird and unhinged shit and gets headlines for all the wrong reasons. He is bad for the republican brand. (emphasis mine)
That last bit is what it all comes down to. Except for tariffs, Trump's policies aren't much different from most Republicans and Trump would sign anything a Republican Congress passed into law. On policy they're little different, but Trump is overtly campaigning on becoming a dictator, and he must be stopped at the ballot box, so I welcome the votes.
posted by Gelatin at 8:38 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
That last bit is what it all comes down to. Except for tariffs, Trump's policies aren't much different from most Republicans and Trump would sign anything a Republican Congress passed into law. On policy they're little different, but Trump is overtly campaigning on becoming a dictator, and he must be stopped at the ballot box, so I welcome the votes.
posted by Gelatin at 8:38 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
> ... an elderly, clearly demented and unfit man who has never polled less than 46% in this campaign.
This is where all discussions about the relationship between Trump and the Republican electorate should start, not where they should end.
The Republican Party does not have a Trump Problem: Trump is a symptom of the Republican Party problem. And that problem is stasis, that R Party elected officers consider their identity as Rs to be more important than their identity as Americans. Or, plausibly, that the current generation of them are so politically unsophisticated that they genuinely confuse their Republican identities for American ones.
Athens managed to recover from having one of their factions go full oligarch, so it can happen. IDK how it might work for us, but I look at the current state of the R Party and think "they cannot keep getting dumber and dumber forever." A thing that cannot go on forever has to stop eventually, and one stopping point would be the collapse of the post-1980 R electoral coalition. If the Evangelicals (the ones in the pews, not the preachers) ever go back to thinking that politics is just so filthy that they're better off not even voting, the wheels would come off the clown car pretty fast. Just as one possible example.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:52 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
This is where all discussions about the relationship between Trump and the Republican electorate should start, not where they should end.
The Republican Party does not have a Trump Problem: Trump is a symptom of the Republican Party problem. And that problem is stasis, that R Party elected officers consider their identity as Rs to be more important than their identity as Americans. Or, plausibly, that the current generation of them are so politically unsophisticated that they genuinely confuse their Republican identities for American ones.
Athens managed to recover from having one of their factions go full oligarch, so it can happen. IDK how it might work for us, but I look at the current state of the R Party and think "they cannot keep getting dumber and dumber forever." A thing that cannot go on forever has to stop eventually, and one stopping point would be the collapse of the post-1980 R electoral coalition. If the Evangelicals (the ones in the pews, not the preachers) ever go back to thinking that politics is just so filthy that they're better off not even voting, the wheels would come off the clown car pretty fast. Just as one possible example.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 8:52 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
If the Evangelicals (the ones in the pews, not the preachers) ever go back to thinking that politics is just so filthy that they're better off not even voting, the wheels would come off the clown car pretty fast. Just as one possible example.
The problem right now is that due to the way the system is structured, dumbing everything and everyone down related to the base has worked so far.
The most unfit candidate for the Presidency ever (and I'm including Pat Paulsen and Alan Keyes in that) won once, came within about a hundred thousand votes scattered amongst certain states of winning twice, and still has that 46% supporting him today even after criminal convictions, open racism and bigotry, impeachments and J6. (Perhaps the American Crazification Factor, speaking of Alan Keyes, needs to be updated for inflation.) Replacing moderate Rs with full-blown wackaloons has not impeded their ability to do what they think their job is -- to stop legislation of any kind from passing Congress and to then blame Government and the Democrats for the problems that ensue. The court systems has been peppered with GOP True Believers who rule on outcome rather than law. The well has been sufficiently poisoned so that Republicans reflexively reject any credentials or authority -- doctors, news media, facts, logic, reality itself -- that disagree with what their preferred authority declares.
Chuffy described what is needed as "deprogramming" upthread, and that is exactly right. Substantial change is not possible until enough reflexive R voters determine that they're far better off voting the other way, and that simply chanting "blame the Other" isn't going to improve their situations at all. That is not possible until (a) a collapse of Great Depression levels or greater shocks groups of people into reevaluating their worldviews, (b) their all-talking-points-all-the-time media somehow crack and all start providing something other than 24/7 propaganda, or (c) both occur.
posted by delfin at 9:19 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
The problem right now is that due to the way the system is structured, dumbing everything and everyone down related to the base has worked so far.
The most unfit candidate for the Presidency ever (and I'm including Pat Paulsen and Alan Keyes in that) won once, came within about a hundred thousand votes scattered amongst certain states of winning twice, and still has that 46% supporting him today even after criminal convictions, open racism and bigotry, impeachments and J6. (Perhaps the American Crazification Factor, speaking of Alan Keyes, needs to be updated for inflation.) Replacing moderate Rs with full-blown wackaloons has not impeded their ability to do what they think their job is -- to stop legislation of any kind from passing Congress and to then blame Government and the Democrats for the problems that ensue. The court systems has been peppered with GOP True Believers who rule on outcome rather than law. The well has been sufficiently poisoned so that Republicans reflexively reject any credentials or authority -- doctors, news media, facts, logic, reality itself -- that disagree with what their preferred authority declares.
Chuffy described what is needed as "deprogramming" upthread, and that is exactly right. Substantial change is not possible until enough reflexive R voters determine that they're far better off voting the other way, and that simply chanting "blame the Other" isn't going to improve their situations at all. That is not possible until (a) a collapse of Great Depression levels or greater shocks groups of people into reevaluating their worldviews, (b) their all-talking-points-all-the-time media somehow crack and all start providing something other than 24/7 propaganda, or (c) both occur.
posted by delfin at 9:19 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Chuffy described what is needed as "deprogramming" upthread, and that is exactly right.
This is something I think doesn’t get nearly enough airtime: that it’s not actually enough just to win. Once the win starts getting to the point where the MAGA folks realize that they are never going to win again, ever, under any circumstances, unless deprogramming has occurred, we are going to see bombs going off in Times Square. And that is an outcome I would fervently like to avoid, and where these fuckers may actually be useful.
posted by corb at 10:04 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
This is something I think doesn’t get nearly enough airtime: that it’s not actually enough just to win. Once the win starts getting to the point where the MAGA folks realize that they are never going to win again, ever, under any circumstances, unless deprogramming has occurred, we are going to see bombs going off in Times Square. And that is an outcome I would fervently like to avoid, and where these fuckers may actually be useful.
posted by corb at 10:04 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
With respect to "deprogramming" the Republican Party primary electorate, which is basically what's being advocated, I wonder who is going to do the work there, and how the compliance of the deprogrammees is to be obtained.
There are really some areas of human existence where progress, if it happens at all, comes one funeral at a time. Theories of social change that involve artificially accelerating the rate of funerals have turned out to not work out in ways consistent with progressive goals. We will have to wait this out, and the only real hope for the survival of representative government is that some previously-apathetic people who were incorporated into the R base will revert to their traditional political inactivity.
It is possible for the Rs to beshit themselves so thoroughly that over 3 election cycles they lose almost all of their Senators. It happened between 1932 and 1936. We don't need them to fail as hard as they did in the Depression for them to lose control of Congress and not be able to elect a President for 20 years. Having the Evangelicals call it quits would do the trick. Or a chunk of it.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:47 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
There are really some areas of human existence where progress, if it happens at all, comes one funeral at a time. Theories of social change that involve artificially accelerating the rate of funerals have turned out to not work out in ways consistent with progressive goals. We will have to wait this out, and the only real hope for the survival of representative government is that some previously-apathetic people who were incorporated into the R base will revert to their traditional political inactivity.
It is possible for the Rs to beshit themselves so thoroughly that over 3 election cycles they lose almost all of their Senators. It happened between 1932 and 1936. We don't need them to fail as hard as they did in the Depression for them to lose control of Congress and not be able to elect a President for 20 years. Having the Evangelicals call it quits would do the trick. Or a chunk of it.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:47 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
They literally believe that America will end (somehow) if Democrats are elected.
And yet it didn't when Biden was elected.
And yet it didn't when Biden was elected.
If the election does not go his way, the economy will tank, Christmas will be canceled, and America as we know it will be “finished,” Donald Trump promised in the run-up to the 2020 election.posted by kirkaracha at 6:39 PM on September 20 [2 favorites]
That race did not go his way, of course, and none of Trump’s prophesied cataclysms materialized under Joe Biden’s presidency. But that has not stopped Trump from recycling some of the same dark portents about a Kamala Harris presidency.
“If he’s elected, the stock market will crash,” Trump said in October 2020 during his only debate with Biden. “If he gets in, you will have a depression the likes of which you’ve never seen."
The depression never happened. Stocks rose during Biden’s presidency. But Trump recently predicted that a Harris victory would lead to “a massive [stock] market downturn” and “a 1929-style depression.”
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So one of his guys with a submachine gun (I don't know, Stephen Miller probably) steps up to spray them both with bullets, and Indy and the thug he's fighting both realize they need to cooperate to shoot that guy or they're both dead, so Indy levels the thug's gun arm at him and the thug pulls the trigger. Then they go back to fighting their own fight.
posted by Naberius at 12:08 PM on September 17 [76 favorites]