When access makes it hard to know when to fold 'em
September 23, 2024 8:31 AM Subscribe
Legalized Sports Gambling Was a Mistake (slTheAtlantic) (archive here)
But wait -- there's more! Ontario, Canada legalized virtual casinos and well, that's not going great either. (slTOStar) (archive here)
But wait -- there's more! Ontario, Canada legalized virtual casinos and well, that's not going great either. (slTOStar) (archive here)
Speaking as an Ontario resident who doesn't gamble, there are so many gambling ads on billboards/print media/online media/commercials. Even if a non-gambler like me can't escape its presence, I can only imagine what it's like for those who have a problem.
posted by Kitteh at 8:43 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:43 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]
As someone with a high schooler and a middle schooler, it is absolute poison to the boys and spreading to the girls. A large amount are addicted and our regulators have seriously dropped the ball. This and social media are clear threats to our kids that in retrospect will be seen like smoking or adding lead to gasoline as public health risks, in this case it’s just mental health.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:44 AM on September 23 [22 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:44 AM on September 23 [22 favorites]
As long as we require cash to access food, shelter, and medicine it should not be acceptable to create businesses that prey on compulsive behavior.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:46 AM on September 23 [15 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 8:46 AM on September 23 [15 favorites]
All I can say is that, if alcohol were pushed as assiduously as sports gambling has been, I'd be in serious trouble.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:47 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:47 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
What would a harm reduction model for compulsive gambling look like?
posted by Selena777 at 8:48 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:48 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
I know of no one who is happier or healthier for having indulged in sports betting; I do know someone personally whose life was really messed up by sports betting.
And I find the hypocrisy of sports leagues being absolutely drenched in betting -- from ads in-stadium & during games to coverage which discusses "the spread" -- while they still talk about "amateurism" and "the great things that kids learn from sports" utterly contemptible.
Get the betting money out of sports.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:50 AM on September 23 [20 favorites]
And I find the hypocrisy of sports leagues being absolutely drenched in betting -- from ads in-stadium & during games to coverage which discusses "the spread" -- while they still talk about "amateurism" and "the great things that kids learn from sports" utterly contemptible.
Get the betting money out of sports.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:50 AM on September 23 [20 favorites]
No shit.
Legalized sports betting was always about giving a bunch of fantasy sports-playing techbros a license toprint steal money. It's so dumb that this is a social problem we didn't even have until recently because there were actually laws that prohibited this industry from existing out in the open. And now because of the way things work, no amount of evidence is ever going to close the barn door because companies like Fan Duel and Draftkings are big enough to own lobbyists.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:53 AM on September 23 [26 favorites]
Legalized sports betting was always about giving a bunch of fantasy sports-playing techbros a license to
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:53 AM on September 23 [26 favorites]
IMO being able to gamble with real money on your phone is just bad news bears, period. With casinos you at least run out of cash and go home for the night, or whatever. But, like social media, you never escape your phone. It should absolutely be outlawed.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:54 AM on September 23 [25 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:54 AM on September 23 [25 favorites]
there are so many gambling ads on billboards
At one time, all the gambling in Ontario was owned by the provincial government. There was no advertising, as the goal was not to grow the business but provide an outlet for gamblers that did not feed exploitative private interests. All the revenue went into government services including funding gambling addiction counselling.
Then, Doug Ford sold off a bunch of them for less than what they earned in a single year. For that reason alone he should be in prison.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:58 AM on September 23 [43 favorites]
At one time, all the gambling in Ontario was owned by the provincial government. There was no advertising, as the goal was not to grow the business but provide an outlet for gamblers that did not feed exploitative private interests. All the revenue went into government services including funding gambling addiction counselling.
Then, Doug Ford sold off a bunch of them for less than what they earned in a single year. For that reason alone he should be in prison.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:58 AM on September 23 [43 favorites]
With this much money, it’s just a matter of time before a big corruption scandal breaks. Probably with the refs, given they don’t make the money the players and coaches do.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:02 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 9:02 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
Oh my, the totally inevitable thing that everyone knew would happen happened. Who could have predicted it?
Seriously, though, this is going to cause a lot of harm over the years and not to the people who thought it would be great to legalize it.
posted by tommasz at 9:04 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
Seriously, though, this is going to cause a lot of harm over the years and not to the people who thought it would be great to legalize it.
posted by tommasz at 9:04 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
What would a harm reduction model for compulsive gambling look like?
Ban advertising, get it off people's phones, provide a small number government controlled venues with no profit motive, and set a small hard limit on bets per day.
Offer counseling to those who will accept it and prosecute large corporations who try to circumvent the law ruthlessly.
Some people will still make the effort to bet ruinously, but the opportunity will not be shoved in their fave with a bunch of emotionally manipulative ads undermining their willpower.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:04 AM on September 23 [41 favorites]
Ban advertising, get it off people's phones, provide a small number government controlled venues with no profit motive, and set a small hard limit on bets per day.
Offer counseling to those who will accept it and prosecute large corporations who try to circumvent the law ruthlessly.
Some people will still make the effort to bet ruinously, but the opportunity will not be shoved in their fave with a bunch of emotionally manipulative ads undermining their willpower.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:04 AM on September 23 [41 favorites]
Interesting. As an avid sports follower, I would never ever bet a dime on sports, because I've seen the "impossible" happen too many times. But I'm also surprised at the Metafilter group reaction, because this community generally doesn't think prohibition of "societal ills" is effective.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:04 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:04 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
Pattern Juggler beat my post with some reasonable suggestions besides an "outright ban."
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:05 AM on September 23
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:05 AM on September 23
But I'm also surprised at the Metafilter group reaction, because this community generally doesn't think prohibition of "societal ills" is effective.
I don’t think prohibition is a good idea, but I’m all for increasing friction. You want to bet on sports? Require bets to be made in-person, for example. The die-hards will still do it, nobody else will, and but keeps it from going underground where bad things happen.
Yeah, or see above.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:09 AM on September 23 [31 favorites]
I don’t think prohibition is a good idea, but I’m all for increasing friction. You want to bet on sports? Require bets to be made in-person, for example. The die-hards will still do it, nobody else will, and but keeps it from going underground where bad things happen.
Yeah, or see above.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:09 AM on September 23 [31 favorites]
IMO being able to gamble with real money on your phone is just bad news bears, period.
And being able to gamble with money that's not even yours is a crime against humanity. Both Draftkings and Fan Duel accept credit cards. The article only tacitly mentions this probably because placing bets with a credit card is just so widespread nowadays, but it's another one of those incredibly harmful things that we don't actually have to allow and could easily change except for the massive industry that's making dumptrucks full of money off of human suffering.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:10 AM on September 23 [30 favorites]
And being able to gamble with money that's not even yours is a crime against humanity. Both Draftkings and Fan Duel accept credit cards. The article only tacitly mentions this probably because placing bets with a credit card is just so widespread nowadays, but it's another one of those incredibly harmful things that we don't actually have to allow and could easily change except for the massive industry that's making dumptrucks full of money off of human suffering.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:10 AM on September 23 [30 favorites]
There's often a transaction designation for gambling that is blocked *by the credit card issuer.* I wonder what cards are okay with it?
posted by Selena777 at 9:14 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:14 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
What would be the strategy for taking maximal advantage of the gambling platforms' "Get $100 of free bets when you sign up for the first time?" I get podcast ads for this kind of stuff all the time, and I would love to have these evil companies lose as much money as possible on failed new customer acquisition.
I assume that you'd want to try to make as many small-value, near-even bets as possible so that the $100 (or whatever) gets washed to the point that you can withdraw it out of the platform.
posted by Aizkolari at 9:14 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
I assume that you'd want to try to make as many small-value, near-even bets as possible so that the $100 (or whatever) gets washed to the point that you can withdraw it out of the platform.
posted by Aizkolari at 9:14 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
There will be a lot more cheating and point shaving done by players and referees/umpires. It's gonna be South American soccer players murdered by gangs bad.
posted by hairless ape at 9:15 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
posted by hairless ape at 9:15 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
Interesting. As an avid sports follower, I would never ever bet a dime on sports, because I've seen the "impossible" happen too many times.
That's very noble of you, but keep in mind that reason works both ways--lots of people bet on sports because they've seen the impossible happen. One could even argue that's the whole point of sports betting.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:15 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
That's very noble of you, but keep in mind that reason works both ways--lots of people bet on sports because they've seen the impossible happen. One could even argue that's the whole point of sports betting.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:15 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
Casino gambling was defeated in D.C. some years back, despite being shepherded by a council member of dubious integrity but some influence. The money behind the initiative was all based offshore, which made it all the more suspect. I opposed it then as a voter and would do so again and again. Making gambling easy benefits only one party: the house. So, when I'm forced to watch/listen to TV/radio ads, the number of spots for online gambling (with incentives like $200 back on your first bet) is appalling. I'm 100% behind banning its advertising.
posted by the sobsister at 9:19 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
posted by the sobsister at 9:19 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
Decriminalized gambling anywhere was always a mistake.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:20 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:20 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
I grew up around (but not in) an evangelical Christian culture, so I lumped the anti-gambling stuff in with the anti-alcohol and anti-sex messages. As an adult, I didn't really care. I don't enjoy gambling, but I so rarely found myself in a casino that I didn't see many of the negatives firsthand. But in the last few years, I've become passionately opposed to expanding gambling in my state. It is so clearly ruining people's lives, often in ways that were not possible when I was growing up. It's bad for people, and households. For the first time in my life, I understand the temperance movement.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:20 AM on September 23 [19 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:20 AM on September 23 [19 favorites]
And being able to gamble with money that's not even yours is a crime against humanity. Both Draftkings and Fan Duel accept credit cards.
That is absolutely bonkers and should definitely, 100% be illegal.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:20 AM on September 23 [6 favorites]
That is absolutely bonkers and should definitely, 100% be illegal.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:20 AM on September 23 [6 favorites]
It is so clearly ruining people's lives, often in ways that were not possible when I was growing up. It's bad for people, and households.
honest question to any and all who do gamble, even if just occcasionally.
what's good about gambling?
posted by philip-random at 9:26 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
honest question to any and all who do gamble, even if just occcasionally.
what's good about gambling?
posted by philip-random at 9:26 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
My grandmother was a slot jockey. She set aside a portion of her paycheck each week to head down to the casino, where the staff all knew her by name. She liked the excitement, the sparkly lights, the risk. Even though she lost more than she earned, she liked those days when she won a toaster. (Even one day, a car!) For her, playing the slots was a hobby rather than an addiction.
She was also very, very lucky. She walked into a vampire den never played more than she could afford to lose, and knew when to stop each time. If she'd had less mental fortitude, the bloodsuckers would have happily drained her life savings in a heartbeat. It's crazy that there are no guardrails to keep vulnerable people away from such places.
posted by lock robster at 9:31 AM on September 23 [11 favorites]
She was also very, very lucky. She walked into a vampire den never played more than she could afford to lose, and knew when to stop each time. If she'd had less mental fortitude, the bloodsuckers would have happily drained her life savings in a heartbeat. It's crazy that there are no guardrails to keep vulnerable people away from such places.
posted by lock robster at 9:31 AM on September 23 [11 favorites]
what's good about gambling?
Dopamine while you wait for the outcome, the illusion of control, the intense thrill of winning money for nothing. It's even sweeter when you have won based on some insight to the contest or the game you are playing. And you always remember the wins while losses blur together, making you feel like you are luckier and winning more than you are.
I have a family history of gambling addiction and I love gambling. I have to have a strict rule against it because I am terrible at stopping once I start.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:32 AM on September 23 [15 favorites]
Dopamine while you wait for the outcome, the illusion of control, the intense thrill of winning money for nothing. It's even sweeter when you have won based on some insight to the contest or the game you are playing. And you always remember the wins while losses blur together, making you feel like you are luckier and winning more than you are.
I have a family history of gambling addiction and I love gambling. I have to have a strict rule against it because I am terrible at stopping once I start.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:32 AM on September 23 [15 favorites]
21 states also allow lottery tickets to be purchased with credit cards.
Massachusetts is one of the states that doesn't, and thankfully that ban remains even though the state is allowing online sales of lottery tickets beginning next year as part of a plan to remain competitive with online sports betting.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:32 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
Massachusetts is one of the states that doesn't, and thankfully that ban remains even though the state is allowing online sales of lottery tickets beginning next year as part of a plan to remain competitive with online sports betting.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:32 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
it didn’t automatically exclude the more than 32,000 people who have self-excluded from land-based casinos and OLG.ca.
Wow, that number is way higher than I expected. That's 32,000 people who have gambled and had significant enough trouble controlling it that they wanted to stop but still had enough control to do the self-exclusion process. I can't imagine how many people are lost in the other parts of that sentence.
what's good about gambling?
Same dopamine hit that keeps people playing clicker games, posting for likes on socials (and MetaFilter) and generally drives the internet.
I am not a very frequent gambler, but I buy the occasional lottery ticket, because I like to daydream about what I'd do with the money if I won. How I'd hand it out to family members, what charities I would support, what vacations I would take, what kind of party I would throw for my Ottawa friends before I left town, that sort of thing. $10 every few weeks to give some tiny chance of realizing my daydreams isn't so bad.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:35 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]
Wow, that number is way higher than I expected. That's 32,000 people who have gambled and had significant enough trouble controlling it that they wanted to stop but still had enough control to do the self-exclusion process. I can't imagine how many people are lost in the other parts of that sentence.
what's good about gambling?
Same dopamine hit that keeps people playing clicker games, posting for likes on socials (and MetaFilter) and generally drives the internet.
I am not a very frequent gambler, but I buy the occasional lottery ticket, because I like to daydream about what I'd do with the money if I won. How I'd hand it out to family members, what charities I would support, what vacations I would take, what kind of party I would throw for my Ottawa friends before I left town, that sort of thing. $10 every few weeks to give some tiny chance of realizing my daydreams isn't so bad.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:35 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]
> And I find the hypocrisy of sports leagues being absolutely drenched in betting
One of my favorite players was banned for almost an entire season for gambling stuff he did when he was just joining the league. And while I won't excuse or expect people not to take responsibility, the absolutely sickening irony of the team (and many others) being branded with various online betting companies is a really bitter pill to swallow. And it's pretty obvious that in all sports, they in no way prepare or protect these young kids who are suddenly swimming in more money than they've ever thought possible. It's infuriating.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 9:44 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
One of my favorite players was banned for almost an entire season for gambling stuff he did when he was just joining the league. And while I won't excuse or expect people not to take responsibility, the absolutely sickening irony of the team (and many others) being branded with various online betting companies is a really bitter pill to swallow. And it's pretty obvious that in all sports, they in no way prepare or protect these young kids who are suddenly swimming in more money than they've ever thought possible. It's infuriating.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 9:44 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
whats good about gambling?
The same things that are good about booze and cigarettes—they’re fun in moderation, but devastating in excess, while being very addictive. This is why we have laws about booze and cigarettes regulating marketing and criminalizing making them accessible to children. How the legalization of gambling got through without applying the lessons we already learned is a crime in itself.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:45 AM on September 23 [14 favorites]
The same things that are good about booze and cigarettes—they’re fun in moderation, but devastating in excess, while being very addictive. This is why we have laws about booze and cigarettes regulating marketing and criminalizing making them accessible to children. How the legalization of gambling got through without applying the lessons we already learned is a crime in itself.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:45 AM on September 23 [14 favorites]
The upcoming election in Missouri includes an amendment to legalize sports betting. There are ads all over the place emphasizing how much this is going to fund education. And it apparently is doing really well in the polls so I guess people are buying the lie.
The tax is only 10% and education gets whatever is left after funding the Compulsive Gambling Prevention Fund. (Instead of, you know, helping to reduce compulsive gambling by not legalizing sports betting.) They're not even going to get enough to fix the bus driver shortage.
posted by Foosnark at 9:52 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
The tax is only 10% and education gets whatever is left after funding the Compulsive Gambling Prevention Fund. (Instead of, you know, helping to reduce compulsive gambling by not legalizing sports betting.) They're not even going to get enough to fix the bus driver shortage.
posted by Foosnark at 9:52 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
There will be a lot more cheating and point shaving done by players and referees/umpires. It's gonna be South American soccer players murdered by gangs bad.
This has already been happening.
Back in 2021, referee Tony Corrente blatantly threw a game to Pittsburgh by making two absolutely terrible calls against Chicago.
Without that 29-27 win, Pittsburgh would have missed the playoffs that year, breaking, if I recall correctly, one of the longest post-season appearance streaks extant at the time.
And the NFL did absolutely jack about it. Coincidentally of course, Corrente retired that year after 27 years with the NFL.
posted by jamjam at 10:01 AM on September 23 [6 favorites]
This has already been happening.
Back in 2021, referee Tony Corrente blatantly threw a game to Pittsburgh by making two absolutely terrible calls against Chicago.
Without that 29-27 win, Pittsburgh would have missed the playoffs that year, breaking, if I recall correctly, one of the longest post-season appearance streaks extant at the time.
And the NFL did absolutely jack about it. Coincidentally of course, Corrente retired that year after 27 years with the NFL.
posted by jamjam at 10:01 AM on September 23 [6 favorites]
whats good about gambling?
Same thing as what's good about the games at carnivals - you'll probably lose, but you've had a tiny bit of fun trying, once in a blue moon you may actually win something dinky. (I did unusually well at Skee-ball on Coney Island on Labor Day and it still got me only three packs of Smarties for my winnings.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
Same thing as what's good about the games at carnivals - you'll probably lose, but you've had a tiny bit of fun trying, once in a blue moon you may actually win something dinky. (I did unusually well at Skee-ball on Coney Island on Labor Day and it still got me only three packs of Smarties for my winnings.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
I had no idea Draftkings took credit cards. Debit cards maybe but credit? Wow. Here's their FAQ on deposit methods. They also take Apple Pay (but not Google Pay).
Surely Draftkings isn't paying the 30% fee to Apple on every iOS transaction? Or is Apple in the vigorish business too?
posted by Nelson at 10:18 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]
Surely Draftkings isn't paying the 30% fee to Apple on every iOS transaction? Or is Apple in the vigorish business too?
posted by Nelson at 10:18 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]
FTFA:
posted by wenestvedt at 10:25 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
That approach held until 2012, when New Jersey, fearing that Atlantic City was losing its competitive edge, legalized sports gambling.Dammit, New Jersey!
posted by wenestvedt at 10:25 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Also from the Draft King's deposit methods FAQ (emphasis mine):
Cash at Retail refers to a payment option where players can make cash payments for purchases at retail stores or specific locations.
Here are the top ten (10) most popular locations:
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:26 AM on September 23 [22 favorites]
Cash at Retail refers to a payment option where players can make cash payments for purchases at retail stores or specific locations.
Here are the top ten (10) most popular locations:
- Family Dollar
- Dollar General
- CVS Pharmacy
- Walgreens
- 7 Eleven
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:26 AM on September 23 [22 favorites]
I think also sports betting has the added attraction of getting to feel smart, as if you won because you know things other people don't know or couldn't figure out. You're better, smarter than other people, and hey, who wouldn't want to make a little money doing what you're good at? So when you win it's because you're smart, and when you lose, well, everybody does once in a while, no big deal. In the long run I'll win because I'm smarter than average. (No, in the long run you will lose because the bookmakers are not stupid and this isn't their first day doing this)
posted by ctmf at 10:31 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 10:31 AM on September 23 [9 favorites]
Same thing as what's good about the games at carnivals - you'll probably lose, but you've had a tiny bit of fun trying
That's normal people thinking. Hell, I buy a lottery ticket once in a blue moon when it gets really large. It's fun to daydream, and I have no realistic expectation of ever winning. It's spent money. It's when you start having the expectation of coming out ahead, you're in trouble.
posted by ctmf at 10:34 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
That's normal people thinking. Hell, I buy a lottery ticket once in a blue moon when it gets really large. It's fun to daydream, and I have no realistic expectation of ever winning. It's spent money. It's when you start having the expectation of coming out ahead, you're in trouble.
posted by ctmf at 10:34 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
> I won't say its ignored or downplayed, but having seen its effects up close, people do underestimate how bad it is
Sounds just like alcohol addiction to me. It's socially acceptable to gamble, but some people just chemically cannot without destroy their lives and severely impacting the people around them. But the population at large just sort of shrugs their shoulders and says, "guess that's the price to pay for the freedom".
posted by alex_skazat at 10:45 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Sounds just like alcohol addiction to me. It's socially acceptable to gamble, but some people just chemically cannot without destroy their lives and severely impacting the people around them. But the population at large just sort of shrugs their shoulders and says, "guess that's the price to pay for the freedom".
posted by alex_skazat at 10:45 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
I have never been a sports gambler. Don't know any bookies.
OTOH, I have been pretend betting on NFL games via a spreadsheet I made. It's kind of fun. Lost money last year, but am up $25 so far this year. w00t!
I am a gamer, so in my youth I read lots of books about card games, and came to realize, as Doc Holliday said, "No one bucks the tiger, the odds are all on the house..."
Which is pretty much any kind of casino gambling, so have mostly avoided it. Will buy a lottery ticket when the MegaMillions is worth 2 billion, because, sure, that would be cool...
And lets me tell my gambling story
I was headed back to Oregon from the midwest. Might have been when I tore up my knee and had to quit that job, might not have been. Anyway, I was heading home, and had like, $40 to my name. Drove across the salt flats to Wendover, NV. Thought, "if I can win like $40, I can get a room and spend the night.
Headed to the blackjack table. Think they had $2 minimums back then. Was holding my own. Guy sits down next to me at the table. Clearly a morman person from SLC. He places a $25 bet. Wins the hand.
Let's it ride. Wins again. Let's it ride. Wins again.
So now he is up $100. I am down $10.
Lets is ride again. He wins.
Fucker is now up $200. Lets it ride, and loses. When you are up $200, don't get greedy!
Spent the night in the back seat of my car on a remote bit of BLM land....
posted by Windopaene at 10:54 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
OTOH, I have been pretend betting on NFL games via a spreadsheet I made. It's kind of fun. Lost money last year, but am up $25 so far this year. w00t!
I am a gamer, so in my youth I read lots of books about card games, and came to realize, as Doc Holliday said, "No one bucks the tiger, the odds are all on the house..."
Which is pretty much any kind of casino gambling, so have mostly avoided it. Will buy a lottery ticket when the MegaMillions is worth 2 billion, because, sure, that would be cool...
And lets me tell my gambling story
I was headed back to Oregon from the midwest. Might have been when I tore up my knee and had to quit that job, might not have been. Anyway, I was heading home, and had like, $40 to my name. Drove across the salt flats to Wendover, NV. Thought, "if I can win like $40, I can get a room and spend the night.
Headed to the blackjack table. Think they had $2 minimums back then. Was holding my own. Guy sits down next to me at the table. Clearly a morman person from SLC. He places a $25 bet. Wins the hand.
Let's it ride. Wins again. Let's it ride. Wins again.
So now he is up $100. I am down $10.
Lets is ride again. He wins.
Fucker is now up $200. Lets it ride, and loses. When you are up $200, don't get greedy!
Spent the night in the back seat of my car on a remote bit of BLM land....
posted by Windopaene at 10:54 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
I buy a lottery ticket once in blue moon and get my $2 with of daydreaming about having hundreds millions. I also have been to horse races a handful of time and discovered that the races aren’t that fun unless you have a couple bucks on a horse.
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:05 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:05 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]
And lets me tell my gambling story....
My own is shorter: I doubled my money in Las Vegas.
The details are a lot less sexy than that sounds - I'd saved up about $8 in random pocket change for a month before I went there, with the idea that all I would do is play the slots - and I was only envisioning a "drop a coin in a slot, see what happens, if I win anything cash out and move on" kind of thing, and was completely expecting to lose the lot. And then I won about $20 on my very last nickel. It got me bragging rights and a breakfast at the buffet the following day, and that's fine.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:08 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
My own is shorter: I doubled my money in Las Vegas.
The details are a lot less sexy than that sounds - I'd saved up about $8 in random pocket change for a month before I went there, with the idea that all I would do is play the slots - and I was only envisioning a "drop a coin in a slot, see what happens, if I win anything cash out and move on" kind of thing, and was completely expecting to lose the lot. And then I won about $20 on my very last nickel. It got me bragging rights and a breakfast at the buffet the following day, and that's fine.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:08 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
Artie Lange’s third book Wanna Bet? dives into this topic in an entertaining way. What stood out for me is when he did a self-imposed break from gambling with Norm MacDonald, they both realized that they had zero interest in watching the ball games if there was no money riding on the outcome.
With legalizing sports betting, the leagues get both promotion of the games and more people buying tickets or tuning in. They’re greatly benefitting from this climate.
posted by dr_dank at 11:18 AM on September 23 [13 favorites]
With legalizing sports betting, the leagues get both promotion of the games and more people buying tickets or tuning in. They’re greatly benefitting from this climate.
posted by dr_dank at 11:18 AM on September 23 [13 favorites]
Just wait until the gambling - industrial complex convinces congress to pass laws that gambling debts, like student loans, cannot be discharged via bankruptcy proceedings.
posted by ensign_ricky at 11:30 AM on September 23 [17 favorites]
posted by ensign_ricky at 11:30 AM on September 23 [17 favorites]
Given the prior post on the general shittiness of The Atlantic, I'm inclined to take some of this with a grain of salt. The premise seems to be that, if you make it easier for people to make bad choices, they'll make bad choices. Nothing shocking there. But there's a couple of cites (e.g., on a study that purports, but fails, to establish a connection between football losses and domestic violence) that make me wonder whether this might not be an example of how The Atlantic (still) sucks.
posted by BReed at 11:42 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]
posted by BReed at 11:42 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]
My gambling story:
Back before sports gambling was legal anywhere except Nevada, I was playing golf with a local judge outside Pittsburgh. It was 1230 when we got to the 15th tee. He suddenly realized the Steelers game started at 1PM so he whipped out his phone and called in his bet to his bookie.
BReed beat me to the comment about relying on the Atlantic for a valid point of view. I’d note that two of the three papers cited are “working papers” which I believe means they aren’t peer reviewed yet. Additionally the author’s comment that “prohibition cuts the problem off at the root” proves how naive the author is. It wasn’t working before gambling was legal and it won’t work after. It will just take the money spent and move it into an unregulated, underground, criminal economy.
posted by jvbthegolfer at 11:56 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
Back before sports gambling was legal anywhere except Nevada, I was playing golf with a local judge outside Pittsburgh. It was 1230 when we got to the 15th tee. He suddenly realized the Steelers game started at 1PM so he whipped out his phone and called in his bet to his bookie.
BReed beat me to the comment about relying on the Atlantic for a valid point of view. I’d note that two of the three papers cited are “working papers” which I believe means they aren’t peer reviewed yet. Additionally the author’s comment that “prohibition cuts the problem off at the root” proves how naive the author is. It wasn’t working before gambling was legal and it won’t work after. It will just take the money spent and move it into an unregulated, underground, criminal economy.
posted by jvbthegolfer at 11:56 AM on September 23 [5 favorites]
Betting hooks into the brain's intermittent reward cycle _very well_; there's a lot of science showing that random rewards (as you'd expect to see in most gambling) lead to a compulsion reward loop. Gambling is very much in the realm of operant conditioning which can quite easily lead to addictive behaviors. Some people can handle this and some can't; there's no reason to make it easier to start running on that treadmill.
posted by caphector at 11:59 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
posted by caphector at 11:59 AM on September 23 [8 favorites]
I have a friend in my profession. We often share a room at conferences. If there is a handy casino, she brings a set amount of money and plays mostly slots until she’s lost her money or doubles it (or, I suppose, gets bored). I went with her once and watched her play. It was interesting but didn’t look fun, exactly. As a person who develops habits reasonably easily, I’m glad I found it non-enticing. It helps that the casino environment is set to “overwhelming stimulus.”
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:06 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:06 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
In Canada, Civil law is provincial, but Criminal law is national.
We could make taking bets on credit a criminal offence (with joint and several liability, the crime being the same if mere negligence or willful knowledge). That would at least force credit card processing to be vigorously blocked by any gambling houses or sites that service Canada.
posted by NotAYakk at 12:14 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
We could make taking bets on credit a criminal offence (with joint and several liability, the crime being the same if mere negligence or willful knowledge). That would at least force credit card processing to be vigorously blocked by any gambling houses or sites that service Canada.
posted by NotAYakk at 12:14 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
A bit of stats comparison:
Gambling: The industry may claim to want to prevent problem gambling, but its profits largely come from the compulsions of people with a problem. A small number of people place the large majority of bets—about 5 percent of bettors spent 70 percent of the money in New Jersey in late 2020 and early 2021, for example.
Alcohol: As Cook notes in his book, the top 10 percent of drinkers account for well over half of the alcohol consumed in any given year. On the other hand, people in the bottom three deciles don't drink at all, and even the median consumption among those who do drink is just three beverages per week.
The shape of this usage curve isn't exactly unique. The Pareto Law states that "the top 20 percent of buyers for most any consumer product account for fully 80 percent of sales," according to Cook. The rule can be applied to everything from hair care products to X-Boxes.
But the consequences of the Pareto Law are different when it comes to industries like alcohol, tobacco, and now marijuana. If you consume 10+ drinks per day, for instance, you almost certainly have a drinking problem. But the beverage industry is heavily dependent on you for their profits. (from The Washington Post)
It seems self-evident to me that while the Pareto's Law in action here is likely fairly standard across all kinds of industries, i.e., a small minority of high-volume or high-use make up users/gamers/readers making up a huge share of the industry's profits, in any vice-centric industry, that's obviously going to mean the high-volume consumers are the ones with an addiction. In the publishing industry, for example, the people buying and reading multiple romance novels a week/month aren't, like, a problem. It's just a popular genre with a devoted fanbase.
But the top decile of alcohol consumers that consume 70+ drinks a week? That's 10+ drinks a day, and that's obviously problem drinking. It seems self-evident that you get the same thing with gambling. Most people don't gamble a lot, beyond the occasional lotto ticket or playing some slots on a vacation. Some people have a gambling problem, and those people are going to drive the industry's profits.
Prohibition obviously doesn't work, but I do think being able to gamble on your phone so easily is a big problem in the same way gacha games and trading stocks on your phone are problems: reducing the friction on these transactions, and making their consequences more abstract (i.e., you're not forking over cold hard cash to a bookie, you're just tapping a button on your phone that might be linked to your credit card) makes them far too ripe for abuse and addiction. I guess we as a society just shrug and accept that at least 10% of people are going to ruin their lives with addictions that are socially acceptable in moderation, but the ease of online gambling seems ripe for particularly easy and fast life-ruining. That really seems like somewhere the government should step in. Though I guess the government does not step in re alcohol addiction, apart from those that get to the point of multiple DUIs or whatever. Not sure what a solution would be apart from some kind of weekly cap on individual alcohol purchases, but obviously that's never gonna happen and it would be trivially easy to sidestep anyway, and you'd end up with some new version of the Prohibition leading to a rise in organized crime situation.
The solution with gambling is pretty straightforward though, and it's, you know, not to have an easy to access proliferation of legalized sports and other gambling via apps on the little computer you carry around with you everywhere.
posted by yasaman at 12:15 PM on September 23 [11 favorites]
Gambling: The industry may claim to want to prevent problem gambling, but its profits largely come from the compulsions of people with a problem. A small number of people place the large majority of bets—about 5 percent of bettors spent 70 percent of the money in New Jersey in late 2020 and early 2021, for example.
Alcohol: As Cook notes in his book, the top 10 percent of drinkers account for well over half of the alcohol consumed in any given year. On the other hand, people in the bottom three deciles don't drink at all, and even the median consumption among those who do drink is just three beverages per week.
The shape of this usage curve isn't exactly unique. The Pareto Law states that "the top 20 percent of buyers for most any consumer product account for fully 80 percent of sales," according to Cook. The rule can be applied to everything from hair care products to X-Boxes.
But the consequences of the Pareto Law are different when it comes to industries like alcohol, tobacco, and now marijuana. If you consume 10+ drinks per day, for instance, you almost certainly have a drinking problem. But the beverage industry is heavily dependent on you for their profits. (from The Washington Post)
It seems self-evident to me that while the Pareto's Law in action here is likely fairly standard across all kinds of industries, i.e., a small minority of high-volume or high-use make up users/gamers/readers making up a huge share of the industry's profits, in any vice-centric industry, that's obviously going to mean the high-volume consumers are the ones with an addiction. In the publishing industry, for example, the people buying and reading multiple romance novels a week/month aren't, like, a problem. It's just a popular genre with a devoted fanbase.
But the top decile of alcohol consumers that consume 70+ drinks a week? That's 10+ drinks a day, and that's obviously problem drinking. It seems self-evident that you get the same thing with gambling. Most people don't gamble a lot, beyond the occasional lotto ticket or playing some slots on a vacation. Some people have a gambling problem, and those people are going to drive the industry's profits.
Prohibition obviously doesn't work, but I do think being able to gamble on your phone so easily is a big problem in the same way gacha games and trading stocks on your phone are problems: reducing the friction on these transactions, and making their consequences more abstract (i.e., you're not forking over cold hard cash to a bookie, you're just tapping a button on your phone that might be linked to your credit card) makes them far too ripe for abuse and addiction. I guess we as a society just shrug and accept that at least 10% of people are going to ruin their lives with addictions that are socially acceptable in moderation, but the ease of online gambling seems ripe for particularly easy and fast life-ruining. That really seems like somewhere the government should step in. Though I guess the government does not step in re alcohol addiction, apart from those that get to the point of multiple DUIs or whatever. Not sure what a solution would be apart from some kind of weekly cap on individual alcohol purchases, but obviously that's never gonna happen and it would be trivially easy to sidestep anyway, and you'd end up with some new version of the Prohibition leading to a rise in organized crime situation.
The solution with gambling is pretty straightforward though, and it's, you know, not to have an easy to access proliferation of legalized sports and other gambling via apps on the little computer you carry around with you everywhere.
posted by yasaman at 12:15 PM on September 23 [11 favorites]
Certainly slots are just pure dopamine, a hell of a drug...
No choices, just routine behavior. Have you watched slot players? Just repetitive actions, with some dopamine hits.
I can almost get blackjack and poker, as there is certainly skill involved. As is sports betting, where you can see who's playing, who is out, which team is rising, and which team is falling...
But damned if those spread setters aren't good. Think I have had three games this year I have pretend bet on, that have hit exactly the point spread, (not sure what the rules are, but pushes are a loss in my spreadsheet). Crazy.
But, that's why they are the house. The House always wins. But, sick of all the gambling shit during the games...
posted by Windopaene at 12:16 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
No choices, just routine behavior. Have you watched slot players? Just repetitive actions, with some dopamine hits.
I can almost get blackjack and poker, as there is certainly skill involved. As is sports betting, where you can see who's playing, who is out, which team is rising, and which team is falling...
But damned if those spread setters aren't good. Think I have had three games this year I have pretend bet on, that have hit exactly the point spread, (not sure what the rules are, but pushes are a loss in my spreadsheet). Crazy.
But, that's why they are the house. The House always wins. But, sick of all the gambling shit during the games...
posted by Windopaene at 12:16 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
I'm a big fan of college sports. I really don't like gambling. A few weeks ago I was at a game and the opponent scored a touchdown in the fourth quarter. A nearby student sitting with his friends let out a loud string of obscenities. Not because the other team was now within two scores or anything like that, he was screaming about how he had bet the under on the game and that score blew it for him. I hear so much betting talk about games now and I'm so tired of the damn sports book ads everywhere. A couple of weeks ago, a player for I believe Auburn was getting Venmo requests from people asking him to cover their gambling losses on his game, which happens to players on a surprisingly regular basis. It's really gotten into WTF territory.
Upthread jamjam was mentioning that gambling had affected a game with two blown calls by the same official. The likely explanation isn't gambling, but officiating error - it happens a lot, these people are only human, the action is really fast, and if you ever learned just how much the refs are doing during a game, it would make your head spin. The bigger problem is that with widespread gambling, it calls these types of things into question. Was that a blown call or was the ref paid off? About 15 or so years ago, an NBA ref named Tim Donaghy was busted for influencing games to fix them for gamblers. In the 90s, Stevin "Hedake" Smith, a basketball player for Arizona State, went to jail for point shaving. It does happen, it's never been common, but the opportunities for that are now just all over the place with so many bets being placed.
Remember how MLB banned Pete Rose for gambling - and rightly so, you do not bet on the league while you're active and you do NOT bet on your own games - and still hasn't gotten him into the Hall Of Fame? There are now betting windows in the ballparks. The Suns opened a sports book at their arena. Things have gotten so out of hand so fast. So yeah. No credit cards. Bets only in person at licensed sportsbooks. No betting in stadiums. There's no easy fix but it's got to get checked.
posted by azpenguin at 12:45 PM on September 23 [15 favorites]
Upthread jamjam was mentioning that gambling had affected a game with two blown calls by the same official. The likely explanation isn't gambling, but officiating error - it happens a lot, these people are only human, the action is really fast, and if you ever learned just how much the refs are doing during a game, it would make your head spin. The bigger problem is that with widespread gambling, it calls these types of things into question. Was that a blown call or was the ref paid off? About 15 or so years ago, an NBA ref named Tim Donaghy was busted for influencing games to fix them for gamblers. In the 90s, Stevin "Hedake" Smith, a basketball player for Arizona State, went to jail for point shaving. It does happen, it's never been common, but the opportunities for that are now just all over the place with so many bets being placed.
Remember how MLB banned Pete Rose for gambling - and rightly so, you do not bet on the league while you're active and you do NOT bet on your own games - and still hasn't gotten him into the Hall Of Fame? There are now betting windows in the ballparks. The Suns opened a sports book at their arena. Things have gotten so out of hand so fast. So yeah. No credit cards. Bets only in person at licensed sportsbooks. No betting in stadiums. There's no easy fix but it's got to get checked.
posted by azpenguin at 12:45 PM on September 23 [15 favorites]
officiating error
Uhuh, so about this bridge...
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 12:51 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Uhuh, so about this bridge...
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 12:51 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
As they should have...
After the Black Sox Scandal, they had to do something.
posted by Windopaene at 1:00 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
After the Black Sox Scandal, they had to do something.
posted by Windopaene at 1:00 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
So: my late stepdad looooved to gamble. I can't remember a time growing up when there wasn't a lotto ticket or a couple of scratch-offs in the house. He loved Keno. And a few times he won large amounts--and in hindsight, this didn't appear to go to our household upkeep; it would get blown through pretty quickly--and that just encouraged him even more. He took his dream vacation to Vegas with my mom (she thought it was fine but meh). When he was diagnosed with Parkinson's and started taking dopamine agonists, my sister and I didn't find out until after he died that the reason my parents lost their rental house is that he gambled away most of their VERY meager savings so they had to move. The doctor treating him didn't tell my mom that one of the severe side effects of those dopamine agonists is they can trigger intense gambling impulses. He already had those but then the drug made it worse.
Like jacquilynne, I've bought the occasional scratch off or Qwik Pik but it's not terribly interesting to me. The first I've been in a casino--Biloxi, MS on the way to NOLA--my best friend could spend a loooong time at the slot machines but I was bored after trying a couple. Shepherd and I went to one of the OLG casinos a few years ago--btw, the House fronts you $20 to get you started--and it was the same for me. I played a few games, won some money, lost it all (it was the House's money) but at the end of the day, I just don't care for gambling.
posted by Kitteh at 1:00 PM on September 23 [6 favorites]
Like jacquilynne, I've bought the occasional scratch off or Qwik Pik but it's not terribly interesting to me. The first I've been in a casino--Biloxi, MS on the way to NOLA--my best friend could spend a loooong time at the slot machines but I was bored after trying a couple. Shepherd and I went to one of the OLG casinos a few years ago--btw, the House fronts you $20 to get you started--and it was the same for me. I played a few games, won some money, lost it all (it was the House's money) but at the end of the day, I just don't care for gambling.
posted by Kitteh at 1:00 PM on September 23 [6 favorites]
21 states also allow lottery tickets to be purchased with credit cards.
I was once in line behind a woman who was buying many lottery tickets where she had to pick the numbers (only one cashier, it took a while). She took them and put them in a branded state lottery wallet next to her food stamps. The lottery commissions and the sportsbooks know that many of their customers probably shouldn't be gambling, but they don't let that get in their way.
posted by tommasz at 1:06 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
I was once in line behind a woman who was buying many lottery tickets where she had to pick the numbers (only one cashier, it took a while). She took them and put them in a branded state lottery wallet next to her food stamps. The lottery commissions and the sportsbooks know that many of their customers probably shouldn't be gambling, but they don't let that get in their way.
posted by tommasz at 1:06 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Surely Draftkings isn't paying the 30% fee to Apple on every iOS transaction? Or is Apple in the vigorish business too?
Draftkings redirects iOS users to their website, I believe, thus bypassing Apple's commission, which only applies to apps. I don't know if Draftkings pays off Google, though, or also redirects users.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:10 PM on September 23
Draftkings redirects iOS users to their website, I believe, thus bypassing Apple's commission, which only applies to apps. I don't know if Draftkings pays off Google, though, or also redirects users.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:10 PM on September 23
Some gambling anecdotes.
A friend was involved in the 12-Step movement service/administration and often visited meetings that were not part of her own addictive behaviour. I mentioned that a family member is a gambling addict and my friend said that she occasionally visited GA meetings. She said the thing she found especially frightening is that, "There's no stopping. With alcohol or drugs you eventually pass out. Gamblers keep going until their houses, families, and jobs are gone."
That family member's lies to me to try to get gambling cash were so blatant as to embarrass both of us. Once she said, "I just need capital" like she was investing. And perhaps others' compulsion seems more logical, but she had the idea that getting a line-up of certain fruit in the VLTs was a message from her recently deceased mother that all was well with her in heaven.
That family member lost her house from gambling and became homeless. I got a call from the police around midnight one day asking if I would take her in. I was hesitant, but my husband refused, and she was taken to a shelter. More importantly, she got tied into the social services network we're lucky to have here, and she was lucky that they had capacity for her. She's been about 10 years in a subsidized apartment, mostly free from gambling, although has no credit as the result of two consumer proposals incurred because of it. It's inconvenient that she can't have a credit card, but in her best interest.
Here in Alberta casinos and bingos are mostly staffed by charities (there is a casino on local First Nations land that operates differently but I don't know anything about it), although the staff who run the games (croupiers, dealers, etc.) are employed by the casino. There's a lottery system (hah!) where registered charities apply to "run" casinos for 48 hours. The charity supplies all the people who staff the cash registers, chip runners, and count room. About 20 or so volunteers are needed for the 48 hours. The charities are assigned their time slots and volunteers come in and work during that period. No volunteer is allowed to play any games at the casino. The charities receive a percentage of the take for that 48 hour period. When I've worked casinos, the charity I was volunteering for generally made about $50K. That's an awful lot of chocolate bars and frozen pizzas sold, so a casino is a major fundraiser for charities here. IIRC, a charity can apply once every 24 months.
I worked a number of casinos as a result for my children's school band programs, and once for a health-care related charity. I usually chose the "count room" to work since it was always smoke-free because we were counting cash. We counted on glass tables with cameras everywhere. I found it very intimidating, not to mention the thousands of dollars of cash I was handling. Back in those days, Canada still had a $1,000 bill and I saw quite a few of those. I once worked the cash register, exchanging cash for playing chips and vice-versa. One night I paid out over $10,000 to someone. I commented he'd had a lucky night. He replied that he'd lost $11,000 the night before, so was still behind.
One of the gambling games was a video-game horse race. I watched people raucously cheer for cartoon horses.
I was on a cruise ship when I was 19 that had a small casino. I took a single roll of dimes ($5) with me to the slot machines and lost it all within 20 minutes. I've never been able to see the attraction.
That said, I'm part of a lottery ticket group where each of us pays $20 per month and we have pizza together a couple of times per year, each time saying the next pizza gathering will be in Tuscany. The $240 per year is money I'm prepared to lose for the thrill of imagining the big win and the bi-annual pizza camaraderie.
So I'm by no means "clean" from gambling and have profited from it indirectly. But firsthand exposure to the enormous harm of it keeps me from getting into it further. If the lotteries were made illegal (they were illegal in Canada when I was a kid) I wouldn't mourn my little flights of fantasy, and could still meet for pizza with former colleagues.
Maybe things are different elsewhere, but the biggest gambling addict in Alberta is the provincial government which rakes in millions of dollars from gambling here.
posted by angiep at 1:10 PM on September 23 [16 favorites]
A friend was involved in the 12-Step movement service/administration and often visited meetings that were not part of her own addictive behaviour. I mentioned that a family member is a gambling addict and my friend said that she occasionally visited GA meetings. She said the thing she found especially frightening is that, "There's no stopping. With alcohol or drugs you eventually pass out. Gamblers keep going until their houses, families, and jobs are gone."
That family member's lies to me to try to get gambling cash were so blatant as to embarrass both of us. Once she said, "I just need capital" like she was investing. And perhaps others' compulsion seems more logical, but she had the idea that getting a line-up of certain fruit in the VLTs was a message from her recently deceased mother that all was well with her in heaven.
That family member lost her house from gambling and became homeless. I got a call from the police around midnight one day asking if I would take her in. I was hesitant, but my husband refused, and she was taken to a shelter. More importantly, she got tied into the social services network we're lucky to have here, and she was lucky that they had capacity for her. She's been about 10 years in a subsidized apartment, mostly free from gambling, although has no credit as the result of two consumer proposals incurred because of it. It's inconvenient that she can't have a credit card, but in her best interest.
Here in Alberta casinos and bingos are mostly staffed by charities (there is a casino on local First Nations land that operates differently but I don't know anything about it), although the staff who run the games (croupiers, dealers, etc.) are employed by the casino. There's a lottery system (hah!) where registered charities apply to "run" casinos for 48 hours. The charity supplies all the people who staff the cash registers, chip runners, and count room. About 20 or so volunteers are needed for the 48 hours. The charities are assigned their time slots and volunteers come in and work during that period. No volunteer is allowed to play any games at the casino. The charities receive a percentage of the take for that 48 hour period. When I've worked casinos, the charity I was volunteering for generally made about $50K. That's an awful lot of chocolate bars and frozen pizzas sold, so a casino is a major fundraiser for charities here. IIRC, a charity can apply once every 24 months.
I worked a number of casinos as a result for my children's school band programs, and once for a health-care related charity. I usually chose the "count room" to work since it was always smoke-free because we were counting cash. We counted on glass tables with cameras everywhere. I found it very intimidating, not to mention the thousands of dollars of cash I was handling. Back in those days, Canada still had a $1,000 bill and I saw quite a few of those. I once worked the cash register, exchanging cash for playing chips and vice-versa. One night I paid out over $10,000 to someone. I commented he'd had a lucky night. He replied that he'd lost $11,000 the night before, so was still behind.
One of the gambling games was a video-game horse race. I watched people raucously cheer for cartoon horses.
I was on a cruise ship when I was 19 that had a small casino. I took a single roll of dimes ($5) with me to the slot machines and lost it all within 20 minutes. I've never been able to see the attraction.
That said, I'm part of a lottery ticket group where each of us pays $20 per month and we have pizza together a couple of times per year, each time saying the next pizza gathering will be in Tuscany. The $240 per year is money I'm prepared to lose for the thrill of imagining the big win and the bi-annual pizza camaraderie.
So I'm by no means "clean" from gambling and have profited from it indirectly. But firsthand exposure to the enormous harm of it keeps me from getting into it further. If the lotteries were made illegal (they were illegal in Canada when I was a kid) I wouldn't mourn my little flights of fantasy, and could still meet for pizza with former colleagues.
Maybe things are different elsewhere, but the biggest gambling addict in Alberta is the provincial government which rakes in millions of dollars from gambling here.
posted by angiep at 1:10 PM on September 23 [16 favorites]
After the Black Sox Scandal, they had to do something.
Unfortunately they didn't choose to require owners to pay the players well, allow free agency, or any of the other moves that would have stopped the players involved in the Black Sox Scandal from being desperate enough to think it was a good idea.
posted by Dalekdad at 1:11 PM on September 23 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately they didn't choose to require owners to pay the players well, allow free agency, or any of the other moves that would have stopped the players involved in the Black Sox Scandal from being desperate enough to think it was a good idea.
posted by Dalekdad at 1:11 PM on September 23 [9 favorites]
As with tobacco, alcohol and marijuana there are tax benefits to legalization. Likewise, there are regulations and restrictions on advertising that would be good to place on gambling establishments like casinos, sports bettors, and lottery vendors, just as with the other things we have come around to legalize but restrict due to addiction behaviors.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:13 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:13 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
The book (which I think I heard about here) "Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas" by Natasha Dow Schüll really opened my eyes to the cynical, contemptuous mindset of the companies who operate casinos and program the circuits/software in slot machines and other games.
It made me genuinely sad that there are people whose 9-5 job is figuring out "better" ways to take advantage of addicted gamblers, and to get new people hooked.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:14 PM on September 23 [11 favorites]
It made me genuinely sad that there are people whose 9-5 job is figuring out "better" ways to take advantage of addicted gamblers, and to get new people hooked.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:14 PM on September 23 [11 favorites]
Are the benefits that "vice taxes" provide overstated, though, especially when the industry retort is "now you've made black market sources more appealing in comparison, bring them down, we're in the chamber of commerce now?"
posted by Selena777 at 1:28 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 1:28 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Ms. Hobnail and I got married by an Elvis impersonator in Vegas in 2001. We then dropped acid and walked through all the casinos we could and put a quarter (this was back when they used actual coins) in every Elvis slot machine we could find. Never won a damn thing. Then we stood within range of the roulette table and pretended to place bets, and every one was a loser. I wasn't interested in gambling in the first place, but that sure killed it
At the university where I teach (I've said this before, here) a guy was being given an award and in his speech he said "Every girl on this campus has her head buried in three books and every guy owes five grand to Draft Kings" and absolutely every one of the thousand or so students there was like yep, that is so true.
I guess I can see bringing $100 and playing blackjack until you run out, and thinking of it as the cost of entertainment, but I'd rather spend the money on drugs.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:40 PM on September 23 [17 favorites]
At the university where I teach (I've said this before, here) a guy was being given an award and in his speech he said "Every girl on this campus has her head buried in three books and every guy owes five grand to Draft Kings" and absolutely every one of the thousand or so students there was like yep, that is so true.
I guess I can see bringing $100 and playing blackjack until you run out, and thinking of it as the cost of entertainment, but I'd rather spend the money on drugs.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:40 PM on September 23 [17 favorites]
OK hobnail, that is just too much...
I would go all Fear and Loathing if I were tripping in a Casino.
posted by Windopaene at 1:48 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
I would go all Fear and Loathing if I were tripping in a Casino.
posted by Windopaene at 1:48 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
World Archery now supports the gambling industry, I presume for a cut of the money somehow. Before the Olympics this year the US men's team got busted sandbagging, and some people think the only reason the rule was enforced was because of the new interest from the gambling industry. (Some people don't think that's why it happened. It is a mystery.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:54 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:54 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
Upthread jamjam was mentioning that gambling had affected a game with two blown calls by the same official. The likely explanation isn't gambling, but officiating error - it happens a lot, these people are only human, the action is really fast, and if you ever learned just how much the refs are doing during a game, it would make your head spin.
Nope.
Watch the video included in my link.
Corrente literally backs up into the path of the Chicago player as the player is running off the field and sticks his butt out to generate the collision!
But the player, who later pointed out that he was "hip-checked" by the ref, instinctively dodges almost all of the intended contact — and Corrente obviously realizes that calling the penalty for that contact won’t hold a thimbleful of water, so he throws the flag anyway for 'taunting' that clearly was not taunting, and not only that but happened so long before the penalty that calling it a 'late flag' would be an extreme euphemism.
When I said it was 'blatant', that was also an extreme euphemism.
posted by jamjam at 1:59 PM on September 23 [9 favorites]
Nope.
Watch the video included in my link.
Corrente literally backs up into the path of the Chicago player as the player is running off the field and sticks his butt out to generate the collision!
But the player, who later pointed out that he was "hip-checked" by the ref, instinctively dodges almost all of the intended contact — and Corrente obviously realizes that calling the penalty for that contact won’t hold a thimbleful of water, so he throws the flag anyway for 'taunting' that clearly was not taunting, and not only that but happened so long before the penalty that calling it a 'late flag' would be an extreme euphemism.
When I said it was 'blatant', that was also an extreme euphemism.
posted by jamjam at 1:59 PM on September 23 [9 favorites]
I think also sports betting has the added attraction of getting to feel smart, as if you won because you know things other people don't know or couldn't figure out. You're better, smarter than other people, and hey, who wouldn't want to make a little money doing what you're good at?
Yeah, this.
MF isn't really a sports-interested place so I'd bet that a lot of folks here don't really grok how DEEPLY EMBEDDED the attitude of "Everyone has an Expert Opinion" is in sports culture and fandom. It's not just "Yay my team won!!" or "Boo my team lost!!" or "OMFG did you see that amazing thing player did ??!!!??" There's hours and hours and hours and hours of radio and TV programming every single day 24/7/365 where dudes spew out buckets of information on every player and every play and every game and opine and argue and prognosticate about all sorts of esoteric & specialized details, not just on players and playing the game but coaches and management and some of these broadcasters are former players or coaches but an awful lot are just people who pay a lot of attention to sports - just like YOU, dear fan, only they're getting paid for it - and a ton of those shows take calls and emails from viewers who go into GREAT AND ANGRY DETAIL why the Browns were idiots for picking who they did in the second round of the NFL draft and why the Cavaliers should have run a totally different coverage pattern in last night's game against the Pistons and these Everyman Opinions are taken just as seriously (mostly) as the opinions of the professionals in the broadcast studios.
IOW, if you're anything more than a very casual fan, you exist in a world where you have access to almost as much information as the actual players and coaches and teams - you're practically deluged with information - and a culture that is permeated with the belief that you sitting on your couch watching the game on a Sunday afternoon would and could have made better decisions about how to play the game than the people actually playing the game.
OF COURSE you're going to leap at the chance to apply all that expertise and make a few bucks - hell, weren't you right about how the Mets should NEVER have tried the bunt at the top of the eighth inning? Damn straight you were. Now you can PROVE it by winning bets . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 3:00 PM on September 23 [19 favorites]
Yeah, this.
MF isn't really a sports-interested place so I'd bet that a lot of folks here don't really grok how DEEPLY EMBEDDED the attitude of "Everyone has an Expert Opinion" is in sports culture and fandom. It's not just "Yay my team won!!" or "Boo my team lost!!" or "OMFG did you see that amazing thing player did ??!!!??" There's hours and hours and hours and hours of radio and TV programming every single day 24/7/365 where dudes spew out buckets of information on every player and every play and every game and opine and argue and prognosticate about all sorts of esoteric & specialized details, not just on players and playing the game but coaches and management and some of these broadcasters are former players or coaches but an awful lot are just people who pay a lot of attention to sports - just like YOU, dear fan, only they're getting paid for it - and a ton of those shows take calls and emails from viewers who go into GREAT AND ANGRY DETAIL why the Browns were idiots for picking who they did in the second round of the NFL draft and why the Cavaliers should have run a totally different coverage pattern in last night's game against the Pistons and these Everyman Opinions are taken just as seriously (mostly) as the opinions of the professionals in the broadcast studios.
IOW, if you're anything more than a very casual fan, you exist in a world where you have access to almost as much information as the actual players and coaches and teams - you're practically deluged with information - and a culture that is permeated with the belief that you sitting on your couch watching the game on a Sunday afternoon would and could have made better decisions about how to play the game than the people actually playing the game.
OF COURSE you're going to leap at the chance to apply all that expertise and make a few bucks - hell, weren't you right about how the Mets should NEVER have tried the bunt at the top of the eighth inning? Damn straight you were. Now you can PROVE it by winning bets . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 3:00 PM on September 23 [19 favorites]
The case came before the Supreme Court, which in 2018 ruled that PASPA violated the Tenth Amendment’s prohibition on the federal government exercising powers reserved for the states.
George W. Bush steals an election, then Trump steals the next one. Giving us this SCOTUS.
For the next 40 years this country (if it lasts that long) is going to be seeing... what's the sports term? "Unforced errors."
posted by AlSweigart at 3:31 PM on September 23 [5 favorites]
George W. Bush steals an election, then Trump steals the next one. Giving us this SCOTUS.
For the next 40 years this country (if it lasts that long) is going to be seeing... what's the sports term? "Unforced errors."
posted by AlSweigart at 3:31 PM on September 23 [5 favorites]
What would be the strategy for taking maximal advantage of the gambling platforms' "Get $100 of free bets when you sign up for the first time?"
Read the fine print very carefully. When the online casinos first launched a few years ago, a lot of them had specials like bet $5 and get $200 in free bets. So you could bet $5 on literally anything, get $200 credit, bet $100 on each side of something (e.g., $100 on Cowboys to win Sunday, $100 on Cowboys to lose Sunday), and walk away with ~$100 (or whatever the amount was) risk free, no gamble at all. This was all I have ever used the betting apps for.
When I see ads now, the terms are less generous. It's usually something like, if your first bet loses, we'll give you credit to make another, single bet for the same amount. So there's generally no guaranteed way to turn the deal into free cash.
posted by smelendez at 3:52 PM on September 23 [5 favorites]
Read the fine print very carefully. When the online casinos first launched a few years ago, a lot of them had specials like bet $5 and get $200 in free bets. So you could bet $5 on literally anything, get $200 credit, bet $100 on each side of something (e.g., $100 on Cowboys to win Sunday, $100 on Cowboys to lose Sunday), and walk away with ~$100 (or whatever the amount was) risk free, no gamble at all. This was all I have ever used the betting apps for.
When I see ads now, the terms are less generous. It's usually something like, if your first bet loses, we'll give you credit to make another, single bet for the same amount. So there's generally no guaranteed way to turn the deal into free cash.
posted by smelendez at 3:52 PM on September 23 [5 favorites]
When we were in college in Boston, the first casino in Connecticut opened. They would give you a $10 roll of quarters just for showing up with a coupon from the paper!!
So we went, looked around, lost half our quarters in the slots, and still left with change for the laundromat.
Never gambled in a casino since, though I have bought three lottery tickets when the prize exceeded $1b.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:34 PM on September 23 [5 favorites]
So we went, looked around, lost half our quarters in the slots, and still left with change for the laundromat.
Never gambled in a casino since, though I have bought three lottery tickets when the prize exceeded $1b.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:34 PM on September 23 [5 favorites]
I have two copies of "Addicted by Design" - just in case I need to GIVE someone a copy instead of lend it to them.
Following up angiep's observations - you drink too much, your body rebels; drugs, the same; gambling just means that you are keen to turn up at work and earn overtime so that you can go and do it all again.
Australia has the highest rate of gambling per capita - so every day there are reports of yet another fraud by a gambling addict, and typically, these are "dedicated" workers. Capitalism at its purest.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:51 PM on September 23 [6 favorites]
Following up angiep's observations - you drink too much, your body rebels; drugs, the same; gambling just means that you are keen to turn up at work and earn overtime so that you can go and do it all again.
Australia has the highest rate of gambling per capita - so every day there are reports of yet another fraud by a gambling addict, and typically, these are "dedicated" workers. Capitalism at its purest.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:51 PM on September 23 [6 favorites]
My family has a history of addiction. I'm extremely lucky that I don't enjoy alcohol or opiates. I do enjoy games like Civilization, and can't have them on my computer if I want to get any work done, or sleep. That's why I haven't tried Balatro. Doesn't mean I think games like that should be banned. But it is pretty fucked that you can gamble on a credit card. I would expect that would make one a terrible credit risk. But maybe people manage to skate a fine line of being constantly on the edge of financial disaster. That would require a truly amazing level of doublethink, but I guess that's the human brain for you.
posted by novalis_dt at 4:55 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
posted by novalis_dt at 4:55 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
In terms of basically paying you to gamble to see if you get hooked (as drug dealers would say, the first one is always free), about thirty years or so ago, my partner was interviewing for jobs as I was getting my career started in NYC, and there was a bus service between Brooklyn (and other points in NYC) and the casinos in Atlantic City; they'd "charge" you $10 or $20 or so and give all that back to you in quarters. Her job interview was in AC, so we both went down there on the bus, and she did her job interview while I grooved on all the familiar street names from the Monopoly game board; I can't remember if I spent one token quarter in the slots or not, but I did no serious gambling. On the bus ride back, the other riders were incredibly pissy, and one of them refused to switch her seat so that me and my partner could sit together; I was pissy right back, so I asked her how the slots had treated her that day, and she answered that she'd won a lot, in a way that made it clear that she hadn't. (To be clear, I'm not proud of myself in how I acted in that situation.)
A few years later, it was my turn. I was living in Memphis and there were legalized casinos in Tunica County, Mississippi, and the same sort of "buy a round-trip bus ticket and get your money back in quarters" deal, so I decided to check them out. I tried my hand at blackjack, was ahead for a while, and ended up behind; not a lot--less than $100--but understanding that that was how they got you.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:21 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
A few years later, it was my turn. I was living in Memphis and there were legalized casinos in Tunica County, Mississippi, and the same sort of "buy a round-trip bus ticket and get your money back in quarters" deal, so I decided to check them out. I tried my hand at blackjack, was ahead for a while, and ended up behind; not a lot--less than $100--but understanding that that was how they got you.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:21 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
What would be the strategy for taking maximal advantage of the gambling platforms' "Get $100 of free bets when you sign up for the first time?"
It's complicated and probably not worth your time. I do it and have been betting for a few years, with consistently positive (albeit small) returns, but I only bet positive value promotions that I can compute the odds on myself. I really enjoy probability / odds / math, so it scratches that itch for me. The "short" version is that the maximal expected value when free bets get involved is also high variance, and likely to leave you with nothing. This is mostly off the top of my head, so the math might not be perfect but it should be directionally correct.
As an example: take an offer where you deposit $100 and get a free bet if you lose. If you bet that first bet on typical "even odds", you have a 50% chance of winning. If you win you get $91 additional, for a total of $191. If you lose and put your free bet on another 50/50 bet, you'll get $91 - no original stake. If you lose that you get nothing.
So your expected value is 191 if you win (50% chance) and 91 if you lose the first but win the second (25% chance). $191 * .5 + 91*.25 = $118, which is an 18% return on your original $100. You have a 25% chance of going home with nothing.
If instead you put your money on a longshot bet that's 10-1, you'll get roughly 955 if your first bet wins (including your original stake) and 855 if your second bet wins.
So the expected value now is (10% * 955) + (90%*10%*855), which is about $172 - a 72% return on your original 100. However, you have an 81% chance of going home with nothing.
posted by true at 7:16 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
It's complicated and probably not worth your time. I do it and have been betting for a few years, with consistently positive (albeit small) returns, but I only bet positive value promotions that I can compute the odds on myself. I really enjoy probability / odds / math, so it scratches that itch for me. The "short" version is that the maximal expected value when free bets get involved is also high variance, and likely to leave you with nothing. This is mostly off the top of my head, so the math might not be perfect but it should be directionally correct.
As an example: take an offer where you deposit $100 and get a free bet if you lose. If you bet that first bet on typical "even odds", you have a 50% chance of winning. If you win you get $91 additional, for a total of $191. If you lose and put your free bet on another 50/50 bet, you'll get $91 - no original stake. If you lose that you get nothing.
So your expected value is 191 if you win (50% chance) and 91 if you lose the first but win the second (25% chance). $191 * .5 + 91*.25 = $118, which is an 18% return on your original $100. You have a 25% chance of going home with nothing.
If instead you put your money on a longshot bet that's 10-1, you'll get roughly 955 if your first bet wins (including your original stake) and 855 if your second bet wins.
So the expected value now is (10% * 955) + (90%*10%*855), which is about $172 - a 72% return on your original 100. However, you have an 81% chance of going home with nothing.
posted by true at 7:16 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
Remember how MLB banned Pete Rose for gambling - and rightly so, you do not bet on the league while you're active and you do NOT bet on your own games - and still hasn't gotten him into the Hall Of Fame?
Rose agreed to leave the MLB with minimal fuss over gambling to quietly put to an end to the then current investigations into his actions with underage girls.
Him being ineligible for the HoF came later as an unintended side effect, when the rules changed to prevent inductees who were also not illegible to play.
Would Rose have rolled the dice (yeah that’s right) on going to prison for statutory rape (at best) to keep the possibility of a shot at the Hall? Who can say. Are people who advocate for Rose desiring that someone who fucked people he shouldn’t have fucked get rewarded? Definitely.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:59 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Rose agreed to leave the MLB with minimal fuss over gambling to quietly put to an end to the then current investigations into his actions with underage girls.
Him being ineligible for the HoF came later as an unintended side effect, when the rules changed to prevent inductees who were also not illegible to play.
Would Rose have rolled the dice (yeah that’s right) on going to prison for statutory rape (at best) to keep the possibility of a shot at the Hall? Who can say. Are people who advocate for Rose desiring that someone who fucked people he shouldn’t have fucked get rewarded? Definitely.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:59 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
With this much money, it’s just a matter of time before a big corruption scandal breaks. Probably with the refs, given they don’t make the money the players and coaches do.
Just this summer a hockey broadcaster was fired for leaking details of the NHL draft to a friend, as apparently the media are given (short) advance notice of which players are being selected in which round and by which teams. The Nevada Gaming Control Board got involved.
So the corruption spreads, even to sports-adjacent areas.
posted by good in a vacuum at 9:30 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
Just this summer a hockey broadcaster was fired for leaking details of the NHL draft to a friend, as apparently the media are given (short) advance notice of which players are being selected in which round and by which teams. The Nevada Gaming Control Board got involved.
So the corruption spreads, even to sports-adjacent areas.
posted by good in a vacuum at 9:30 PM on September 23 [4 favorites]
I had been enjoying watching the replays of the Olympics and Paralympics with my kids, but I kid you not, every clip began with an ad for sportsbet and bleh. We gave up.
posted by freethefeet at 9:52 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
posted by freethefeet at 9:52 PM on September 23 [1 favorite]
Additionally the author’s comment that “prohibition cuts the problem off at the root” proves how naive the author is. It wasn’t working before gambling was legal and it won’t work after. It will just take the money spent and move it into an unregulated, underground, criminal economy.
Prohibition may not work, but legalisation works even less. Bring back the gambling bans.
posted by Dysk at 9:59 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Prohibition may not work, but legalisation works even less. Bring back the gambling bans.
posted by Dysk at 9:59 PM on September 23 [2 favorites]
Sports betting has been essentially legal for a very long time in the UK. It's fairly heavily regulated but it feels like it's become a lot more prominent in the last 10-20 years (and the National Lottery, introduced in 1994 certainly helped normalise some types of gambling). If you're interested, we have a new Gambling Survey run by the regulator which collects data on gambling participation.
posted by plonkee at 1:51 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
posted by plonkee at 1:51 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
Shitty Biff future, folks. Shitty Biff future
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:30 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 5:30 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
The proverbial horse is out and on the home stretch by now.
posted by DJZouke at 5:47 AM on September 24
posted by DJZouke at 5:47 AM on September 24
But I'm also surprised at the Metafilter group reaction, because this community generally doesn't think prohibition of "societal ills" is effective.
Thing is, it's not an abstract "societal ill." There are many different goods out there that are all real different things with real different properties and real different clientele.
Most of us here are old enough to remember ten or twenty years back when there was nigh-universal prohibition on weed and it was laughably ineffective, and in places where prohibition was eliminated or scaled back I don't recall any serious bad things following it.
Most of us are also old enough to remember ten or twenty years back when there was much heavier prohibition against sports gambling and it seems to have been fairly effective and when they scaled back that prohibition a fair chunk of people ruined their lives over it.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:28 AM on September 24 [6 favorites]
Thing is, it's not an abstract "societal ill." There are many different goods out there that are all real different things with real different properties and real different clientele.
Most of us here are old enough to remember ten or twenty years back when there was nigh-universal prohibition on weed and it was laughably ineffective, and in places where prohibition was eliminated or scaled back I don't recall any serious bad things following it.
Most of us are also old enough to remember ten or twenty years back when there was much heavier prohibition against sports gambling and it seems to have been fairly effective and when they scaled back that prohibition a fair chunk of people ruined their lives over it.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:28 AM on September 24 [6 favorites]
I had a well-off older relative who my family would visit once a year or so. He had a basement wonderland with a couple of slot machines in it. Every time we visited he would give each of us kids a roll of quarters and we’d all immediately put it in the slot machines and lose it all. Only years later did I realize what a clever and beneficial idea that was.
posted by bq at 8:06 AM on September 24 [4 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:06 AM on September 24 [4 favorites]
I can imagine a world where gambling is legal but I don’t need to watch 10 ads for it on TV during a game. That would be nice. While we’re at it let’s get rid of medication ads too.
posted by bq at 8:07 AM on September 24 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:07 AM on September 24 [3 favorites]
I do think there's probably a middle ground between criminalizing betting in a way that results in it being all mobbed up and actively encouraging betting, as the government in Ontario is currently doing and allowing sports books and online gambling sites to do. Like, we let convenience stores sell cigarettes but we don't let tobacco companies buy TV ads or sponsor arenas.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:13 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 8:13 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
I will say the advent of online sports gambling has actively made following the NHL worse (probably any sport, but there I be). The ads on TV are obnoxious, the embedded segments that tout 'spreads' are worse, and any pre-game write-ups now all seem to tout odds in headline and copy.
My kind of sports gambling is trying out player recipes on a whim (spoiler: Gumpies are a nostalgia win!).
posted by mazola at 8:34 AM on September 24
My kind of sports gambling is trying out player recipes on a whim (spoiler: Gumpies are a nostalgia win!).
posted by mazola at 8:34 AM on September 24
The details are a lot less sexy than that sounds - I'd saved up about $8 in random pocket change for a month before I went there, with the idea that all I would do is play the slots - and I was only envisioning a "drop a coin in a slot, see what happens, if I win anything cash out and move on" kind of thing, and was completely expecting to lose the lot. And then I won about $20 on my very last nickel. It got me bragging rights and a breakfast at the buffet the following day, and that's fine.
I was in Atlantic City with my parents and I don't gamble but my mom insisted and staked me $5. It took me half an hour to lose that damn money because the one-armed bandits are designed on a trickle of variable schedule reinforcement. Fortunately, I aced my animal learning and cognition course in my undergrad and also I was violently repulsed by all the seniors blowing their retirements while tethered to the gambling machines by coiled stretchy cords attached to their casino cards because they had all been zombified. It was also quite difficult to find my way out of the casino.
Gambling is pure evil human brain hacking.
posted by srboisvert at 8:40 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
I was in Atlantic City with my parents and I don't gamble but my mom insisted and staked me $5. It took me half an hour to lose that damn money because the one-armed bandits are designed on a trickle of variable schedule reinforcement. Fortunately, I aced my animal learning and cognition course in my undergrad and also I was violently repulsed by all the seniors blowing their retirements while tethered to the gambling machines by coiled stretchy cords attached to their casino cards because they had all been zombified. It was also quite difficult to find my way out of the casino.
Gambling is pure evil human brain hacking.
posted by srboisvert at 8:40 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
"Earlier research found that an NFL home team’s upset loss causes a 10 percent increase in reported incidents of men being violent toward their partner. Matsuzawa and Arnesen ... estimate that legal sports betting leads to a roughly 9 percent increase in intimate-partner violence."
JFC
posted by porpoise at 3:09 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
JFC
posted by porpoise at 3:09 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
But I'm also surprised at the Metafilter group reaction, because this community generally doesn't think prohibition of "societal ills" is effective.This isn’t a binary choice, and there’s a ton of history here for damage mitigation. For example, not many people here call for banning drugs completely but I’ve read a ton of support for making sure potential users are educated about the risks and making sure that users have easy access to treatment and safety options.
In this case, I think most people seem to be focused on that harm reduction aspect: the difference between not illegal and heavily advertised, not allowing gambling companies to accept credit cards, making sure people know how to get help and are able to do things like voluntarily block themselves from gambling, and how to keep children from getting addicted early, etc. It’s not unanimous, of course, but I think there is a pretty consistent thread of focusing on mitigating the damage rather than criminalizing activities.
posted by adamsc at 3:49 PM on September 24 [7 favorites]
“You can gamble but not on your phone” is honestly a pretty tenable position to stake out.
posted by atoxyl at 6:56 PM on September 24 [7 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 6:56 PM on September 24 [7 favorites]
You can bet, but you have to go to a bookie's in person, and all transactions have to be cash only. Make people feel how much they're spending, make it easy to set yourself a limit of what's in your wallet. No on site atms, maybe even restrict how close you can site a bookie's to one. Require ID to be shown for every transaction. Not challenge 21, not challenge 25, not even "yes I saw your ID yesterday" make it be shown for every individual transaction. No promotions or deals, just simple odds. No fancy storefronts either - no posters or anything, no branding, just a giant retail version of plain packaging cigarettes. Remove all of the excitement and sexiness from the way they present themselves currently.
That's my suggestion. Make it still legal, but a major hassle to actually do.
(Oh and an easy win that could be implemented right now with minor disruption: restrict scratch card and lotto sales to one per person per day, like we do with certain OTC meds like paracetamol. Maybe they shouldn't be available in every supermarket and corner shop either, or maybe they shouldn't exist at all, but a basic start would be at least not letting people walk into a shop and drop dozens to hundreds of quid on many multiple scratch cards, something I saw disturbingly often when I worked retail.)
posted by Dysk at 8:14 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
That's my suggestion. Make it still legal, but a major hassle to actually do.
(Oh and an easy win that could be implemented right now with minor disruption: restrict scratch card and lotto sales to one per person per day, like we do with certain OTC meds like paracetamol. Maybe they shouldn't be available in every supermarket and corner shop either, or maybe they shouldn't exist at all, but a basic start would be at least not letting people walk into a shop and drop dozens to hundreds of quid on many multiple scratch cards, something I saw disturbingly often when I worked retail.)
posted by Dysk at 8:14 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
wait, why do you guys limit paracetemol? Isn't it the same thing as Tylenol in the US?
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:39 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:39 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
Paracetamol was a terrible yet popular choice for attempting suicide with horrible outcomes that rarely involved actual death.
posted by fullerine at 11:34 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 11:34 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
Yeah, if paracetamol/acetaminophen were a brand-new drug there is no way it would ever get approved for OTC use in the USA. It's extremely dangerous and extremely easy to OD on in life-destroying ways.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:50 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:50 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
Isn't it the same thing as Tylenol in the US?
Not strictly. Most (all?) tylenol products contain paracetamol, but that's not quite the same thing as lots of them also contain other stuff. I believe you folks call the drug itself acetaminophen over there.
posted by Dysk at 2:56 AM on September 25
Not strictly. Most (all?) tylenol products contain paracetamol, but that's not quite the same thing as lots of them also contain other stuff. I believe you folks call the drug itself acetaminophen over there.
posted by Dysk at 2:56 AM on September 25
Tylenol is both a brand name for a bunch of drugs that contain acetaminophen and the way most people refer to acetaminophen itself. If someone said 'do you have a tylenol?' in North America, they would mean just acetaminophen. If they wanted a product with other things in it, it would have a different name -- lots of drugs like Robaxacet, etc' or be 'Tylenol Something' like 'Tylenol cold and flu'.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:00 AM on September 25
posted by jacquilynne at 7:00 AM on September 25
April 2024 piece on legalization of sports betting (emphasis added):
Last year [2023], Americans legally wagered $120bn on sports, up 27.5% compared with 2022. And billions more are probably still bet illegally.posted by spamandkimchi at 12:01 PM on September 25 [4 favorites]
This sharp increase is a reminder that legalization does not just bring black markets into the light of day – it serves to radically expand markets.
In addition to the social stigma that surrounded it, the barrier to entry for sports gambling used to be knowing a bookie and being willing to wager in cash. Then it became being tech-savvy enough to navigate sketchy offshore sites. Now it’s just being 18 years old and having a smartphone and a credit card.
It’s no surprise that young people are suffering the most from legalization. According to a St Bonaventure/Siena Research survey, 39% of men and 20% of women aged 18 to 49 years old bet on sporting events. Among young men, 38% say they’re betting more than they should, 19% have lied about the extent of their betting, and 18% have bet and lost money meant for meeting their financial obligations.
Yeah, if paracetamol/acetaminophen were a brand-new drug there is no way it would ever get approved for OTC use in the USA. It's extremely dangerous and extremely easy to OD on in life-destroying ways.
Very much a tangent here but while the therapeutic index is indeed fundamentally not great, and while it’s exacerbated by the existence of factors that can make people vulnerable to toxicity at lower doses, it would be much less of an issue if it wasn’t also part of a zillion (often OTC) combination drugs.
posted by atoxyl at 1:00 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
Very much a tangent here but while the therapeutic index is indeed fundamentally not great, and while it’s exacerbated by the existence of factors that can make people vulnerable to toxicity at lower doses, it would be much less of an issue if it wasn’t also part of a zillion (often OTC) combination drugs.
posted by atoxyl at 1:00 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
Very much a tangent here but while the therapeutic index is indeed fundamentally not great, and while it’s exacerbated by the existence of factors that can make people vulnerable to toxicity at lower doses, it would be much less of an issue if it wasn’t also part of a zillion (often OTC) combination drugs.
This is also true! (But it's also really, really unsafe even at normal therapeutic dosages when combined with alcohol consumption, and that's always going to be an issue.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:13 PM on September 25
This is also true! (But it's also really, really unsafe even at normal therapeutic dosages when combined with alcohol consumption, and that's always going to be an issue.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:13 PM on September 25
Regular alcohol consumption is one of the factors I was referring to that lowers the threshold for toxicity, along with e.g. malnutrition. Bad property for a drug that people take for a hangover! It seems to be common knowledge that one should avoid concurrent alcohol consumption but ironically that’s probably not the biggest issue (in fact it may be protective in acute overdose because of competitive enzyme inhibition).
posted by atoxyl at 1:32 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 1:32 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
Apologies for the derail, I guess it’s just another case of Americans rip-roaring our way through life, throwing caution into the wind, With our red 40 Food dye, unregulated Tylenol, and assault rifles. Not Kinder Surprise eggs, though, those things are dangerous for children.
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:03 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
posted by Jon_Evil at 9:03 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
I personally don't see the appeal of gambling at all, and have had a tendency to look down on those who do, maybe. But I took my mother in law to a casino, at her request, and I had a realization -- gambling is one of the only wheelchair accessible "thrills" she can have. I mean, she's not climbing mountains, or even going on roller coasters. I like travel, camping, pools with high dives. Doing any of those things would be extremely difficult or impossible for her.
For that reason, I guess I don't want to see it banned, or even made too much less accessible than it is. (In person only and cash only, with ATMs... that would maybe be an impossible barrier for her. She doesn't drive, either.) Maybe we could force people to qualify financially before being allowed to gamble, or something?
It made me look at the old people and the sick people in the casino in a new way. Like yes, the casino is preying on them, taking advantage of them. But also, nobody else is offering them any way to have fun at all? And they are having some fun, and getting out, and being social, to some extent?
I wish they had entertainment options that didn't risk leaving them destitute as well as disabled.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:27 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
For that reason, I guess I don't want to see it banned, or even made too much less accessible than it is. (In person only and cash only, with ATMs... that would maybe be an impossible barrier for her. She doesn't drive, either.) Maybe we could force people to qualify financially before being allowed to gamble, or something?
It made me look at the old people and the sick people in the casino in a new way. Like yes, the casino is preying on them, taking advantage of them. But also, nobody else is offering them any way to have fun at all? And they are having some fun, and getting out, and being social, to some extent?
I wish they had entertainment options that didn't risk leaving them destitute as well as disabled.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:27 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
"with no ATMs" I meant
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:36 AM on September 26
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:36 AM on September 26
Is there any drive to do anything about that? Would that be easier to push for or organise around if that appetite wasn't already sated by casinos?
posted by Dysk at 8:05 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 8:05 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
It also occurs to me that "cash only" wouldn't stop people from betting with credit cards anyway. They'd just take out cash advances on their credit cards. Or pay the rent with their credit card so that they can use the money in their checking account to gamble instead. Money is too fungible.
I'm very much on board with "no advertising" though.
In fact, I'd be on board with laws that allowed only non-profit organizations to operate casinos or sports-betting websites, AND that some of the funds they raise have to be used to benefit the same populations which are being disproportionately harmed by gambling losses.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:08 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
I'm very much on board with "no advertising" though.
In fact, I'd be on board with laws that allowed only non-profit organizations to operate casinos or sports-betting websites, AND that some of the funds they raise have to be used to benefit the same populations which are being disproportionately harmed by gambling losses.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:08 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
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The slow normalization of gambling has been a net negative for society as far as I'm concerned.
posted by fortitude25 at 8:41 AM on September 23 [38 favorites]