Person dies in suicide machine
September 24, 2024 6:28 AM Subscribe
A person has died for the first time in euthanasia campaigner Dr.Philip Nitschke's suicide machine, the Sarco, in Switzerland.
The Sarco machine is in effect a mini gas chamber which fills with nitrogen, an inert non-poisonous gas, after the person who wants to die has entered, closes the lid and presses a button, leading to a painless drug-free death without medical assistance.
Nevertheless, several people have been arrested on suspicion of assisting in a suicide.
Link to archived article from Volkskrant(in Dutch). The Dutch newspaper's photographer was also arrested.
The Sarco machine is in effect a mini gas chamber which fills with nitrogen, an inert non-poisonous gas, after the person who wants to die has entered, closes the lid and presses a button, leading to a painless drug-free death without medical assistance.
Nevertheless, several people have been arrested on suspicion of assisting in a suicide.
Link to archived article from Volkskrant(in Dutch). The Dutch newspaper's photographer was also arrested.
This device allows for "unassisted" suicide, which seems less responsible for a device than being used in "assisted" suicide, as long as the assistance is medical/professional. But in this case they arrested the assistants, accusing them of "suspicion of inciting, and aiding and abetting suicide," which is something else entirely, in particular the "inciting" part. I guess they can't arrest the device...
posted by chavenet at 7:07 AM on September 24
posted by chavenet at 7:07 AM on September 24
I don’t see this being 3-D printed at “home,” unless that home belongs to a billionaire, which is one personal use to which I would not object. It would be more likely to be created and rented out a la Futurama.
It seems as if they could have deployed this legally in Switzerland if they had waited for regulations to catch up. But no, that’s not good enough for a 21st century startup, is it.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:26 AM on September 24 [7 favorites]
It seems as if they could have deployed this legally in Switzerland if they had waited for regulations to catch up. But no, that’s not good enough for a 21st century startup, is it.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:26 AM on September 24 [7 favorites]
It would be more likely to be created and rented out a la Futurama.
Please remember to remove your loved one before promptly returning the Sarco(TM) booth.
posted by biffa at 7:28 AM on September 24 [23 favorites]
Please remember to remove your loved one before promptly returning the Sarco(TM) booth.
posted by biffa at 7:28 AM on September 24 [23 favorites]
Old age pensions are going to start to seem like a selfish indulgence a lot faster than you'd think.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:32 AM on September 24 [21 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 7:32 AM on September 24 [21 favorites]
Air tight chambers are not hard to build. Gas release mechanisms with electronic controls are not hard to build.
Nitrogen gas canisters are not hard to come by. It would not take a 3d printing effort or any big time new tech to replicate this setup.
I'm not defending the people here. Just pointing out the engineering constraints at play. There are not many.
posted by ocschwar at 7:36 AM on September 24 [15 favorites]
Nitrogen gas canisters are not hard to come by. It would not take a 3d printing effort or any big time new tech to replicate this setup.
I'm not defending the people here. Just pointing out the engineering constraints at play. There are not many.
posted by ocschwar at 7:36 AM on September 24 [15 favorites]
How does this compare with what did not sound like a painless murder using nitrogen in an Alabama prison?
posted by Static Vagabond at 7:44 AM on September 24 [22 favorites]
posted by Static Vagabond at 7:44 AM on September 24 [22 favorites]
Please remember to remove your loved one before promptly returning the Sarco(TM) booth.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:47 AM on September 24 [9 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:47 AM on September 24 [9 favorites]
Given a pure nitrogen atmosphere, humans suffocate and die (painlessly, says here). Think I'd prefer N2O so I'd die laughing?
posted by Rash at 7:48 AM on September 24 [4 favorites]
posted by Rash at 7:48 AM on September 24 [4 favorites]
.
posted by limeonaire at 7:57 AM on September 24
posted by limeonaire at 7:57 AM on September 24
PC LOAD PERSON? What the fuck does that mean?
posted by Ickster at 7:59 AM on September 24 [54 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 7:59 AM on September 24 [54 favorites]
How does this compare with what did not sound like a painless murder using nitrogen in an Alabama prison?
Willing participant. And a chamber for this purpose, not a face mask that has to be fitted on an unwilling prisoner.
posted by ocschwar at 8:01 AM on September 24 [6 favorites]
Willing participant. And a chamber for this purpose, not a face mask that has to be fitted on an unwilling prisoner.
posted by ocschwar at 8:01 AM on September 24 [6 favorites]
whatever opinions a person may hold on this topic, I have to say.. the Wikipedia entry on Philip Nitschke makes for interesting reading
with each passing year I find myself moving closer to Team Easier Kinder Death-By-Choice
posted by ginger.beef at 8:14 AM on September 24 [17 favorites]
with each passing year I find myself moving closer to Team Easier Kinder Death-By-Choice
posted by ginger.beef at 8:14 AM on September 24 [17 favorites]
The nitrogen is irrelevant - suicides have often used helium because it’s easy to get given its use for balloons. It’s the lack of oxygen that kills you, and luckily the human body detects a suffocation risk only by the presence of excess CO2. Lack of oxygen does not trigger feelings of breathlessness or being smothered.
posted by Phanx at 8:16 AM on September 24 [17 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 8:16 AM on September 24 [17 favorites]
How does this compare with what did not sound like a painless murder using nitrogen in an Alabama prison?
From the Nitschke wikipedia mentioned: In 2024, Nitschke appeared in an Alabama court as an expert witness to oppose the state's plan to execute convicted killer Kenneth Smith using a mask-and-gas technique incorporating nitrogen.[76] Nitschke testified that the mask-and-gas approach had been rejected decades ago because it was unreliable, and that Smith could be "horribly maimed without a complete seal between mask and face" leading to incomplete cerebral hypoxia and a resultant vegetative state.[76] Nitschke said that nitrogen must be delivered correctly to work as intended. Nitschke said the Alabama nitrogen hypoxia method was "quick and nasty" and ignored the possibilities of vomiting and air leakage.[77]
posted by chavenet at 8:19 AM on September 24 [12 favorites]
From the Nitschke wikipedia mentioned: In 2024, Nitschke appeared in an Alabama court as an expert witness to oppose the state's plan to execute convicted killer Kenneth Smith using a mask-and-gas technique incorporating nitrogen.[76] Nitschke testified that the mask-and-gas approach had been rejected decades ago because it was unreliable, and that Smith could be "horribly maimed without a complete seal between mask and face" leading to incomplete cerebral hypoxia and a resultant vegetative state.[76] Nitschke said that nitrogen must be delivered correctly to work as intended. Nitschke said the Alabama nitrogen hypoxia method was "quick and nasty" and ignored the possibilities of vomiting and air leakage.[77]
posted by chavenet at 8:19 AM on September 24 [12 favorites]
Nobody had really had occasion to find out what happens to a human in pure nitrogen before the great state of Alabama tried it recently, and as pointed out above, that didn’t go very well. I don’t expect the person in this suicide pod died painlessly either. Other animals don’t: veterinary guidelines don’t allow N2 asphyxiation for putting your pet down because they get distressed and start seizing.
I don’t think it’s ableist or regressive to see this as a problem. There are assisted dying methods that work.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:23 AM on September 24 [21 favorites]
I don’t think it’s ableist or regressive to see this as a problem. There are assisted dying methods that work.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:23 AM on September 24 [21 favorites]
CNS: "Firstly, it does not meet the requirements of product safety law and therefore cannot be placed on the market. Secondly, the corresponding use of nitrogen is not compatible with the purpose article of the Chemicals Act"
IMHO use of this machine seems legal in Switzerland, and seems more humane than the passive variety. I guess they just don't like this guy, or don't want their country to be known as the neutral place with bland food and hidden bank accounts where you go to die in a 3D-printed pod.
posted by credulous at 8:26 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
IMHO use of this machine seems legal in Switzerland, and seems more humane than the passive variety. I guess they just don't like this guy, or don't want their country to be known as the neutral place with bland food and hidden bank accounts where you go to die in a 3D-printed pod.
posted by credulous at 8:26 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
Does it play Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony?
posted by whatevernot at 8:31 AM on September 24 [13 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 8:31 AM on September 24 [13 favorites]
Medical assistance in dying protocols in Canada, for reference. Obviously doesn't work where MAID is illegal.
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:45 AM on September 24 [3 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 8:45 AM on September 24 [3 favorites]
Canada is currently prosecuting Kenneth Law for first degree murder for selling sodium nitrite, a normally legal product to sell, through the mail to suicidal people around the world.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:46 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 8:46 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
"The CDT was considered complete as soon as Young and Crippen exited the vehicle. Technicians soon returned to the pad to begin their work, including inspection of Columbia’s aft compartment, near the vehicle’s main engines. Normally, this area was purged with gaseous nitrogen during the countdown to prevent the buildup of potentially dangerous concentrations of gaseous hydrogen or oxygen, and the gaseous nitrogen replaced with air once the test ended. But for this test, engineers requested that the gaseous nitrogen purge continue to evaluate a possible leak in the system. Managers approved the request, but since it was not considered hazardous, it did not undergo a safety review, and the pad technicians were unaware the gaseous nitrogen purge was still underway. As they entered the aft compartment, unaware of the risk, technicians John Bjornstad, Nicholas “Nick” Cannon, and Forrest Cole were quickly overcome by the lack of oxygen. Technicians William Wolford and J.L. “Jimmy” Harper tried to help and were also affected. Rescuers airlifted Bjornstad to a hospital, but he died en route. Cole never regained consciousness and died in the hospital on April 1. Mullon survived, but died in 1995 from long-term complications from the accident. They were the first fatalities associated with launch pad operations since the Apollo 1 fire in January 1967."
https://roundupreads.jsc.nasa.gov/roundup/1648
posted by jim in austin at 8:46 AM on September 24 [8 favorites]
https://roundupreads.jsc.nasa.gov/roundup/1648
posted by jim in austin at 8:46 AM on September 24 [8 favorites]
@whatevernot i believe it has built in speakers so yeah if you bring the mp3 on a usb stick
posted by toycamera at 8:50 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
posted by toycamera at 8:50 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
Other animals don’t: veterinary guidelines don’t allow N2 asphyxiation for putting your pet down because they get distressed and start seizing.
To be clear, the PDF specifies that gradual displacement with Nitrogen or Argon gas is discouraged because hypoxia symptoms arise before the animal loses consciousness. Rapid displacement (such as happens to unfortunate people when there is a major asphyxiant leak within an enclosed space) causes unconsciousness quickly.
The problem with Alabama's use is that N2 asphyxiation shouldn't be done with masks but in a chamber capable of rapid displacement of oxygen with nitrogen. My understanding of the Sarco machine is that its method relies on a rapid displacement.
I, personally, would very much like a rapid-displacement asphyxiation option available to me should I find myself in an untenable position with respect to pain and suffering.
posted by tclark at 8:54 AM on September 24 [32 favorites]
To be clear, the PDF specifies that gradual displacement with Nitrogen or Argon gas is discouraged because hypoxia symptoms arise before the animal loses consciousness. Rapid displacement (such as happens to unfortunate people when there is a major asphyxiant leak within an enclosed space) causes unconsciousness quickly.
The problem with Alabama's use is that N2 asphyxiation shouldn't be done with masks but in a chamber capable of rapid displacement of oxygen with nitrogen. My understanding of the Sarco machine is that its method relies on a rapid displacement.
I, personally, would very much like a rapid-displacement asphyxiation option available to me should I find myself in an untenable position with respect to pain and suffering.
posted by tclark at 8:54 AM on September 24 [32 favorites]
I hope legislation and social acceptance catches up by the time I hit my waning years. I would much rather go out on my own terms, when I feel the time has come. I very much do not want to spend my final months or years being kept alive merely to be kept alive, a mere husk of the person I once was, and an emotional and financial drain on my loved ones. Please, let me choose to go with dignity.
posted by xedrik at 8:55 AM on September 24 [16 favorites]
posted by xedrik at 8:55 AM on September 24 [16 favorites]
I don’t expect the person in this suicide pod died painlessly either.
People have been using hypoxic chamber methods to commit suicide for decades. The book Final Exit explains how to diy with stuff you can buy at a typical strip mall. You can also watch videos of people going into hypoxia on YouTube - Destin from Smarter Every Day has one example. He gets giggly and thinks the whole thing is funny while slowly losing consciousness.
None of this is new or even particularly interesting outside of the logistics/legality of the device itself.
posted by sharktopus at 8:56 AM on September 24 [9 favorites]
People have been using hypoxic chamber methods to commit suicide for decades. The book Final Exit explains how to diy with stuff you can buy at a typical strip mall. You can also watch videos of people going into hypoxia on YouTube - Destin from Smarter Every Day has one example. He gets giggly and thinks the whole thing is funny while slowly losing consciousness.
None of this is new or even particularly interesting outside of the logistics/legality of the device itself.
posted by sharktopus at 8:56 AM on September 24 [9 favorites]
suicides have often used helium because it’s easy to get given its use for balloons
so a lot of manufacturers started adding just a little bit of oxygen to stop that...
posted by toycamera at 8:56 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
so a lot of manufacturers started adding just a little bit of oxygen to stop that...
posted by toycamera at 8:56 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
@whatevernot i believe it has built in speakers so yeah if you bring the mp3 on a usb stick
"Swiss law now allows an exception to the no-assist rule solely for the purpose of verifying the correct MP3 files are present, due to an incident involving CrashTestDummies.mp3"
posted by credulous at 9:00 AM on September 24 [4 favorites]
"Swiss law now allows an exception to the no-assist rule solely for the purpose of verifying the correct MP3 files are present, due to an incident involving CrashTestDummies.mp3"
posted by credulous at 9:00 AM on September 24 [4 favorites]
sharktopus: The book Final Exit explains how to diy with stuff you can buy at a typical strip mall.
Years ago, I saw three used copies of that book on the shelf at The Strand in NYC and wondered about the fates of their previous owners. A book like that would be a conversation object for the morbidly inclined or a curiosity-seeker, but I’d think that at least one of the three would have bought it with serious intent.
posted by dr_dank at 9:33 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
Years ago, I saw three used copies of that book on the shelf at The Strand in NYC and wondered about the fates of their previous owners. A book like that would be a conversation object for the morbidly inclined or a curiosity-seeker, but I’d think that at least one of the three would have bought it with serious intent.
posted by dr_dank at 9:33 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
I looked at TFA and have nothing special to say about that, other than "spectators arrested after use of suicide machine" was never on my 21st Century Events Bingo Card.
@ginger.beef's pointer to the Wikipedia page on Philip Nitschke led me on a long side trip around euthanasia/execution cocktails, and I found myself wondering why some enterprising right-wing dude with some chemistry background does not set up shop to manufacture sodium thiopental for the States that want to use it to kill their people.
I guess because nobody else would do business with them, and the State-inflicted-murder market isn't really big enough to support a source that supplies nobody else.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 9:46 AM on September 24
@ginger.beef's pointer to the Wikipedia page on Philip Nitschke led me on a long side trip around euthanasia/execution cocktails, and I found myself wondering why some enterprising right-wing dude with some chemistry background does not set up shop to manufacture sodium thiopental for the States that want to use it to kill their people.
I guess because nobody else would do business with them, and the State-inflicted-murder market isn't really big enough to support a source that supplies nobody else.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 9:46 AM on September 24
The Repairer of Reputations wasn't on my bingo card for 2024, yet here we are.
posted by ryoshu at 9:51 AM on September 24 [6 favorites]
posted by ryoshu at 9:51 AM on September 24 [6 favorites]
I hope legislation and social acceptance catches up by the time I hit my waning years. I would much rather go out on my own terms, when I feel the time has come. I very much do not want to spend my final months or years being kept alive merely to be kept alive, a mere husk of the person I once was, and an emotional and financial drain on my loved ones. Please, let me choose to go with dignity.
Don't forget the agonizing - and in some cases - utterly untreatable! - pain, that people are forced to endure for hours, weeks, months, years, by not allowing them control over their life.
posted by lalochezia at 10:05 AM on September 24 [11 favorites]
Little bit aghast at the medical examiner saying nitrogen is poisonous. Willful alarmist garbage mouth. Nitrogen? You're soaking in it -- 78% of air is nitrogen. What's next, is water poisonous because you can drown in it?
The nitrogen was poisonous, in this case, because it was ingested and caused death. Water is also poisonous if you drink enough of it (but not if you drowned in it, as you mention; that would be drowning and not poisoning).
The dose makes the poison, as they say.
posted by mmcg at 10:18 AM on September 24 [8 favorites]
This has been on my radar since it first came out (I downloaded an image of it from the BBC article I read it from).
They say they arrested spectators, is there a law that one has to not be seen dying (of self-induced/medically-induced causes?) My escape plan was "helium hood" when I read about it, but never followed up. Then I found out Helium is rare and getting expensive (though I read a company now has a contract to produce it again?)
Then I read that any inert gas can substitute. I wasn't aware that it needs to rapidly displace the oxygen so that's good to know (though I imagine if the time came, I would be dutifully reading whatever I could get my hands on to make sure I'm doing it right), but at least it won't be a surprise. This is assuming I get to that point.
And fuck society for making it impossible to get pain management unless you go on hospice (in the US at least). They wouldn't give my dad any opiates for his pain unless he specifically signed up to die. Such horseshit. I mean he was dying by that point, but he suffered for months, while they tried everything BUT opioids, oh and guess what he had a reaction to once? Cymbalta, guess what else they gave him. Another non-opioid for pain (that I think was also norepinephrine based). Guess what reaction he had to both (and I could have told the fucking doctors not to do it if they just fucking looked at his medical history but no, dumbshits rx'd a similar drug and got the same result) paranoid hallucinations. My sister had similar reactions to cymbalta. But my god. Incompetent "professionals" giving similar meds and not expecting the same result just give fucking opioids. SIGN THIS DOTTED LINE FOR DEATH AND THEN YOU CAN HAVE IT. Fuck you.
But yes, voluntary euthanasia is the best way IMO, if you can do it, it's a shame our society won't support it, but I also understand we don't want to encourage society to just "let the plebes die". That's no good either. We need a good middle road, and it seems the US is incapable of that, at the least.
posted by symbioid at 10:25 AM on September 24 [16 favorites]
They say they arrested spectators, is there a law that one has to not be seen dying (of self-induced/medically-induced causes?) My escape plan was "helium hood" when I read about it, but never followed up. Then I found out Helium is rare and getting expensive (though I read a company now has a contract to produce it again?)
Then I read that any inert gas can substitute. I wasn't aware that it needs to rapidly displace the oxygen so that's good to know (though I imagine if the time came, I would be dutifully reading whatever I could get my hands on to make sure I'm doing it right), but at least it won't be a surprise. This is assuming I get to that point.
And fuck society for making it impossible to get pain management unless you go on hospice (in the US at least). They wouldn't give my dad any opiates for his pain unless he specifically signed up to die. Such horseshit. I mean he was dying by that point, but he suffered for months, while they tried everything BUT opioids, oh and guess what he had a reaction to once? Cymbalta, guess what else they gave him. Another non-opioid for pain (that I think was also norepinephrine based). Guess what reaction he had to both (and I could have told the fucking doctors not to do it if they just fucking looked at his medical history but no, dumbshits rx'd a similar drug and got the same result) paranoid hallucinations. My sister had similar reactions to cymbalta. But my god. Incompetent "professionals" giving similar meds and not expecting the same result just give fucking opioids. SIGN THIS DOTTED LINE FOR DEATH AND THEN YOU CAN HAVE IT. Fuck you.
But yes, voluntary euthanasia is the best way IMO, if you can do it, it's a shame our society won't support it, but I also understand we don't want to encourage society to just "let the plebes die". That's no good either. We need a good middle road, and it seems the US is incapable of that, at the least.
posted by symbioid at 10:25 AM on September 24 [16 favorites]
Canada is currently prosecuting Kenneth Law for first degree murder for selling sodium nitrite, a normally legal product to sell, through the mail to suicidal people around the world.
I'm surprised Canada isn't sending it out in packages to all benefits recipients, since they seem pretty cool with using MAID to kill the disabled.
I used to be a very strong proponent of assisted suicide, but seeing how it has been implemented in Canada, I'm categorically opposed. We have good evidence that a wealthy, developed state pressures the disabled to kill themselves and uses the availability of MAID as an excuse to avoid offering accommodations to disabled people. I can only imagine how it would go in the US if widely available - they'd probably come to your house, haul you out of bed and hold you down for the gas once you had received over X dollars in disability payments.
posted by Frowner at 10:31 AM on September 24 [31 favorites]
I'm surprised Canada isn't sending it out in packages to all benefits recipients, since they seem pretty cool with using MAID to kill the disabled.
I used to be a very strong proponent of assisted suicide, but seeing how it has been implemented in Canada, I'm categorically opposed. We have good evidence that a wealthy, developed state pressures the disabled to kill themselves and uses the availability of MAID as an excuse to avoid offering accommodations to disabled people. I can only imagine how it would go in the US if widely available - they'd probably come to your house, haul you out of bed and hold you down for the gas once you had received over X dollars in disability payments.
posted by Frowner at 10:31 AM on September 24 [31 favorites]
Is there a panic button.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:44 AM on September 24
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:44 AM on September 24
It's sad that my only problem with this has nothing to do with assisted suicide, but rather with American death penalty bastards using it to carry out executions.
posted by robotmachine at 10:45 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
posted by robotmachine at 10:45 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
Think I'd prefer N2O so I'd die laughing?
*Jack Napier has entered the chat*
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:57 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
*Jack Napier has entered the chat*
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:57 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
My father suffered a massive stroke a few hours after going to the hospital for what they later determined to be bone cancer in his spine causing him extreme pain. He went to sleep and never woke up.
They hooked him up to a Darth Vader rig of respirators and more and kept him "alive" for almost two weeks while we searched desperately for a way to force them to stop.
They did not administrator opoid pain killers because it might cause constipation. Or at least that's what they told us. While he was already more or less dead it was still possible to see that his body was in pain.
Eventually a nurse told us that we could demand he be transferred to a hospice, which we did and a day after they removed the ventelators his body finally died there, pain free because they used generous opoids to make it pain free. I send a donation to the hospice every year no matter how broke I am.
I sympathize with fears of legalized suicide being abused to push costly critically ill people to "volunteer" as a cost saving measure.
But I've watched what happens without legal suicide and I cannot agree that it should stay illegal. Let's build in better safeguards, but the barbarism of forcing people in pain or with their brains destroyed to live as long as possible despite their expressed wishes cannot be allowed to continue.
I will also note that without legal suicide the State Of Texas has already been killing poor people with expensive illnesses. And simultaneously keeping dead people "alive" despite their living wills and family wishes. It's the worst of all possible worlds.
My greatest fear when my father was dying was that some part of his brain retained awareness, trapped in a body that could not function, in pain, and utterly helpless. I hope that all of his self died with the initial stroke.
Alzheimers runs in my family. Should I start to develop symptoms then, like Terry Pratchett, I want the opportunity to die on my own terms rather than be forced to watch my brain betrays me and my self dissolves. Perhaps that's selfish of me, if so I'll embrace that selfishness. I've seen the alternative and I still have occasional nightmares about it.
There is no benefit to keeping suicide illegal. It does not prevent the abuses those who fear it might create, but it does create needless misery.
posted by sotonohito at 11:03 AM on September 24 [60 favorites]
They hooked him up to a Darth Vader rig of respirators and more and kept him "alive" for almost two weeks while we searched desperately for a way to force them to stop.
They did not administrator opoid pain killers because it might cause constipation. Or at least that's what they told us. While he was already more or less dead it was still possible to see that his body was in pain.
Eventually a nurse told us that we could demand he be transferred to a hospice, which we did and a day after they removed the ventelators his body finally died there, pain free because they used generous opoids to make it pain free. I send a donation to the hospice every year no matter how broke I am.
I sympathize with fears of legalized suicide being abused to push costly critically ill people to "volunteer" as a cost saving measure.
But I've watched what happens without legal suicide and I cannot agree that it should stay illegal. Let's build in better safeguards, but the barbarism of forcing people in pain or with their brains destroyed to live as long as possible despite their expressed wishes cannot be allowed to continue.
I will also note that without legal suicide the State Of Texas has already been killing poor people with expensive illnesses. And simultaneously keeping dead people "alive" despite their living wills and family wishes. It's the worst of all possible worlds.
My greatest fear when my father was dying was that some part of his brain retained awareness, trapped in a body that could not function, in pain, and utterly helpless. I hope that all of his self died with the initial stroke.
Alzheimers runs in my family. Should I start to develop symptoms then, like Terry Pratchett, I want the opportunity to die on my own terms rather than be forced to watch my brain betrays me and my self dissolves. Perhaps that's selfish of me, if so I'll embrace that selfishness. I've seen the alternative and I still have occasional nightmares about it.
There is no benefit to keeping suicide illegal. It does not prevent the abuses those who fear it might create, but it does create needless misery.
posted by sotonohito at 11:03 AM on September 24 [60 favorites]
The nitrogen was poisonous, in this case, because it was ingested and caused death.
I disagree. If I switch from a diet of bread and water to 100% bread and 0% water and subsequently die a few days later, I was not poisoned by bread, I died from lack of water (dehydration). If I switch from breathing 78% nitrogen and 22% oxygen to 100% nitrogen and 0% oxygen and subsequently die a few minutes later, I was not poisoned by nitrogen, I died from lack of oxygen (asphyxiation).
posted by RichardP at 11:07 AM on September 24 [12 favorites]
I disagree. If I switch from a diet of bread and water to 100% bread and 0% water and subsequently die a few days later, I was not poisoned by bread, I died from lack of water (dehydration). If I switch from breathing 78% nitrogen and 22% oxygen to 100% nitrogen and 0% oxygen and subsequently die a few minutes later, I was not poisoned by nitrogen, I died from lack of oxygen (asphyxiation).
posted by RichardP at 11:07 AM on September 24 [12 favorites]
The thing looks like one of those sensory deprivation tanks. Which I guess it is. The ultimate in sensory deprivation! Get yours today!
(No returns)
posted by slater at 11:19 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
(No returns)
posted by slater at 11:19 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
Is there a panic button.
According to this article, there is.
posted by vverse23 at 11:22 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
According to this article, there is.
posted by vverse23 at 11:22 AM on September 24 [1 favorite]
As a sidebar, this got me wondering about Jack Kevorkian and what became of him.
Wiki : In 1998, Kevorkian was arrested and tried for his role in the voluntary euthanasia of a man named Thomas Youk who had Lou Gehrig's disease, or ALS. He was convicted of second-degree murder and served eight years of a 10-to-25-year prison sentence. He was released on parole on June 1, 2007, on condition he would not offer advice about, participate in, or be present at the act of any type of euthanasia to any other person, nor that he promote or talk about the procedure of assisted suicide.
He died in 2011 and did lectures on euthanasia (but not how to do assisted suicide), tyranny, the criminal justice system, politics, the Ninth Amendment, and Armenian culture. He also ran for Congress.
posted by waving at 11:34 AM on September 24 [8 favorites]
Wiki : In 1998, Kevorkian was arrested and tried for his role in the voluntary euthanasia of a man named Thomas Youk who had Lou Gehrig's disease, or ALS. He was convicted of second-degree murder and served eight years of a 10-to-25-year prison sentence. He was released on parole on June 1, 2007, on condition he would not offer advice about, participate in, or be present at the act of any type of euthanasia to any other person, nor that he promote or talk about the procedure of assisted suicide.
He died in 2011 and did lectures on euthanasia (but not how to do assisted suicide), tyranny, the criminal justice system, politics, the Ninth Amendment, and Armenian culture. He also ran for Congress.
posted by waving at 11:34 AM on September 24 [8 favorites]
barbarism of forcing people in pain or with their brains destroyed to live as long as possible despite their expressed wishes cannot be allowed to continue.
I just hope this sort of thing is legalized before I inevitably lose my mind, as most people in my gene pool do.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:41 AM on September 24 [3 favorites]
I just hope this sort of thing is legalized before I inevitably lose my mind, as most people in my gene pool do.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:41 AM on September 24 [3 favorites]
I used to be a very strong proponent of assisted suicide, but seeing how it has been implemented in Canada, I'm categorically opposed.....
posted by Frowner
Frowner: I'm a huge respecter of your principled views across this site, but on this - you are wrong.
I hope you can deliver your position to the hundreds of thousands of actual people that die in extended, miserable agony every year - more than in e.g. any ongoing genocides!, (and certainly more NOW than in any hypothetical cull of disabled people) because they have incurable diseases and aren't allowed by law to end their lives or have people help them end them.
posted by lalochezia at 11:49 AM on September 24 [10 favorites]
I was thinking of responding to Frowner's comment in a similar fashion, I was thinking of the two people I personally know who, through MAID legislation, opted for a death that allowed them to plan every part of it right up to their final hours. It was a blessing for them and their families
That said, it's such a highly charged emotional topic and I hope we can be mindful of that in our discussion
posted by ginger.beef at 11:55 AM on September 24 [12 favorites]
That said, it's such a highly charged emotional topic and I hope we can be mindful of that in our discussion
posted by ginger.beef at 11:55 AM on September 24 [12 favorites]
Think I'd prefer N2O so I'd die laughing?
*Jack Napier has entered the chat*
*As has Frank Booth*
posted by TedW at 12:11 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
*Jack Napier has entered the chat*
*As has Frank Booth*
posted by TedW at 12:11 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
As a fervant advocate of assisted suicide, I definitely understand and to an extent agree with the concerns people like Frowner have. I don't think they're right, but they're definitely not malicious.
I feel nothing but loathing and enmity for the religious people who want to prolong agony becauase God. But there are reasonable, valid, reasons to object to euthanasia that aren't religious blather or malice.
It is one fo those topics where there actually is room for people of good will to disagree, even if it's also incredibly highly emotionally charged. I've been an asshole about that in the past to people I shouldn't have been, so I try now to remember that.
posted by sotonohito at 12:11 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
I feel nothing but loathing and enmity for the religious people who want to prolong agony becauase God. But there are reasonable, valid, reasons to object to euthanasia that aren't religious blather or malice.
It is one fo those topics where there actually is room for people of good will to disagree, even if it's also incredibly highly emotionally charged. I've been an asshole about that in the past to people I shouldn't have been, so I try now to remember that.
posted by sotonohito at 12:11 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
The Canadian implementation of MAID has been bad. The root problem is not with MAID, it’s with disability programs being terrible, but once Track Two (which meant you didn’t have to have a terminal diagnosis to request MAID and “disability” was an acceptable reason) was implemented, this gap opened up where people couldn’t have a good quality of life due to lack of good supports and that was considered sufficient. Which is horrible and literally buries the evidence that disability supports are criminally poor.
(That some people suggest it for those reasons is sociopathic. But there should be protection.)
Track three (requesting MAID due solely to mental illness) has been delayed to March 2027. Hopefully there can be some rethinking before then.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:13 PM on September 24 [10 favorites]
(That some people suggest it for those reasons is sociopathic. But there should be protection.)
Track three (requesting MAID due solely to mental illness) has been delayed to March 2027. Hopefully there can be some rethinking before then.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:13 PM on September 24 [10 favorites]
An elderly relative of mine recently used Oregon’s Death with Dignity law to end his life, after an aggressive and terminal brain cancer got to the point that he was suffering. Here’s what happens: you drink the medicine, and in a few minutes drift off to sleep. Then maybe fifteen minutes later your heart stops.
It seems so simple and peaceful that I have no idea why anyone is screwing around with nitrogen chamber contraptions. Having access to this is such a mercy, and should be a basic human right.
“He had $600 in a drawer. If he couldn’t get the [suicide medicine] he was going to buy a pistol and do it that way,” his wife said. I’m so glad he didn’t have to do that, and so was she.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:20 PM on September 24 [25 favorites]
It seems so simple and peaceful that I have no idea why anyone is screwing around with nitrogen chamber contraptions. Having access to this is such a mercy, and should be a basic human right.
“He had $600 in a drawer. If he couldn’t get the [suicide medicine] he was going to buy a pistol and do it that way,” his wife said. I’m so glad he didn’t have to do that, and so was she.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 12:20 PM on September 24 [25 favorites]
... I found myself wondering why some enterprising right-wing dude with some chemistry background does not set up shop to manufacture sodium thiopental for the States that want to use it to kill their people.
That's kind of what happened when Trump went on his killing spree. The Federal government has executed a total of 16 people since 1963: 3 under George W Bush's first term, and 13 in the last 6 months of Trump's presidency. The government never said where they got the drugs during Trump's term, but John Oliver reported that it came from a test chemical manufacturer. They aren't licensed by the FDA because they don't technically manufacture drugs.
posted by netowl at 12:25 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
That's kind of what happened when Trump went on his killing spree. The Federal government has executed a total of 16 people since 1963: 3 under George W Bush's first term, and 13 in the last 6 months of Trump's presidency. The government never said where they got the drugs during Trump's term, but John Oliver reported that it came from a test chemical manufacturer. They aren't licensed by the FDA because they don't technically manufacture drugs.
posted by netowl at 12:25 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
i feel like if you, being of sound mind, can press the button yourself then you should be allowed to do it.
the quibble can then be what does it mean to be of sound mind. is there a catch-22 where if you feel like ending it you can't possibly be of a sound mind?
i totally agree with for ex warriorqueen that it's a moral tragedy, and extremely fucked up, that some of my fellow Canadians are literally killing themselves because the state won't fund the support they need.
but the status quo is they don't get the support they need _and_ they suffer horribly. pre-MAID the the state was already OK with letting people suffer horribly and dying out of sight. like, if i was homeless and i was given the choice between freezing to death in a ravine or pressing a button to end it in a hospital, i personally would find it cold comfort to be told that my lonely and brutal untimely death would serve as a moralizing example to shame the public into funding the social safety net.
the article almost reads like the main objection is that there isn't a doctor gatekeeping it.
posted by pmv at 12:30 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
the quibble can then be what does it mean to be of sound mind. is there a catch-22 where if you feel like ending it you can't possibly be of a sound mind?
i totally agree with for ex warriorqueen that it's a moral tragedy, and extremely fucked up, that some of my fellow Canadians are literally killing themselves because the state won't fund the support they need.
but the status quo is they don't get the support they need _and_ they suffer horribly. pre-MAID the the state was already OK with letting people suffer horribly and dying out of sight. like, if i was homeless and i was given the choice between freezing to death in a ravine or pressing a button to end it in a hospital, i personally would find it cold comfort to be told that my lonely and brutal untimely death would serve as a moralizing example to shame the public into funding the social safety net.
the article almost reads like the main objection is that there isn't a doctor gatekeeping it.
posted by pmv at 12:30 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
I have no idea why anyone is screwing around with nitrogen chamber contraptions
The medicine is restricted and many asphyxiants aren't. A lot of times all you need is a hole in the ground and some rusty metal.
posted by Mitheral at 12:33 PM on September 24 [1 favorite]
The medicine is restricted and many asphyxiants aren't. A lot of times all you need is a hole in the ground and some rusty metal.
posted by Mitheral at 12:33 PM on September 24 [1 favorite]
Here in the NL my mother received euthanasia last year.
She was 89 and her parkinson had been progressing for 20 years.
And to her the most important thing was to live on her own terms. Be autonomous, make her own decisions.
I have to say; the process was super diligent and balanced. The doctor spoke to her regularly over 4 weeks. To understand what was motivating her. To make sure it wasn't a whim. A completely independent doctor spoke to her. They spoke to her without me around to rule out undue influence. They made it very clear she could change her mind and say 'no' at any time. Etc etc.
It was a big relief to her that this option exists.
Regarding the death itself: the doctor came to her home. And it was administered through IV. First a sedative, than a paralytic I think.
One moment I was talking to my mother, holding her hand, the next moment it was a body in front of me. She was obviously gone. Died instantly.
As merciful as death can be.
A datapoint: euthanasia can be a careful and caring thing.
posted by jouke at 12:47 PM on September 24 [57 favorites]
She was 89 and her parkinson had been progressing for 20 years.
And to her the most important thing was to live on her own terms. Be autonomous, make her own decisions.
I have to say; the process was super diligent and balanced. The doctor spoke to her regularly over 4 weeks. To understand what was motivating her. To make sure it wasn't a whim. A completely independent doctor spoke to her. They spoke to her without me around to rule out undue influence. They made it very clear she could change her mind and say 'no' at any time. Etc etc.
It was a big relief to her that this option exists.
Regarding the death itself: the doctor came to her home. And it was administered through IV. First a sedative, than a paralytic I think.
One moment I was talking to my mother, holding her hand, the next moment it was a body in front of me. She was obviously gone. Died instantly.
As merciful as death can be.
A datapoint: euthanasia can be a careful and caring thing.
posted by jouke at 12:47 PM on September 24 [57 favorites]
If I switch from breathing 78% nitrogen and 22% oxygen to 100% nitrogen and 0% oxygen and subsequently die a few minutes later, I was not poisoned by nitrogen, I died from lack of oxygen (asphyxiation).
This seems like a particularly pedantic derail.
In Michigan there was the whole Jack Kevorkian drama back in the 90s, which at the time I was too young to really follow but I sort of vaguely recall as mostly being (in the court of public opinion) not so much about whether (assisted) suicide should be permitted, but to what trouble the assister should have to go to make sure that what they were doing was not murder (i.e., that the person dying was in their right mind). I've never really understood how practical it is to determine that. Is there not a state of sufficient mental illness that would be defensible as circumstances for justified euthanasia?
To me the angle that made most sense was basically the "I'd do it myself but I physically can't" as a justification for assisted euthanasia. This was precisely the circumstance of the individual (Thomas Youk) whose case caused Kevorkian to be convicted of 2nd degree murder, which probably legally correct didn't seem particularly sensible.
TFA: Critics fear the device's modern design glamorises suicide and the fact that it can be operated without medical oversight is concerning.
The fear of "glamorisation of suicide" through "modern design" is risible -- the thing looks like a piece of set dressing from a low-budget 90s sci fi film. And an enclosed space and a running automobile, or a passing train, can also be "operated without medical oversight," and certainly we don't seem to be tripping over ourselves litigating those out of existence.
posted by axiom at 12:47 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
This seems like a particularly pedantic derail.
In Michigan there was the whole Jack Kevorkian drama back in the 90s, which at the time I was too young to really follow but I sort of vaguely recall as mostly being (in the court of public opinion) not so much about whether (assisted) suicide should be permitted, but to what trouble the assister should have to go to make sure that what they were doing was not murder (i.e., that the person dying was in their right mind). I've never really understood how practical it is to determine that. Is there not a state of sufficient mental illness that would be defensible as circumstances for justified euthanasia?
To me the angle that made most sense was basically the "I'd do it myself but I physically can't" as a justification for assisted euthanasia. This was precisely the circumstance of the individual (Thomas Youk) whose case caused Kevorkian to be convicted of 2nd degree murder, which probably legally correct didn't seem particularly sensible.
TFA: Critics fear the device's modern design glamorises suicide and the fact that it can be operated without medical oversight is concerning.
The fear of "glamorisation of suicide" through "modern design" is risible -- the thing looks like a piece of set dressing from a low-budget 90s sci fi film. And an enclosed space and a running automobile, or a passing train, can also be "operated without medical oversight," and certainly we don't seem to be tripping over ourselves litigating those out of existence.
posted by axiom at 12:47 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
An elderly relative of mine recently used Oregon’s Death with Dignity law to end his life, after an aggressive and terminal brain cancer got to the point that he was suffering
It seems so simple and peaceful that I have no idea why anyone is screwing around with nitrogen chamber contraptions.
I also have had a very close-up view of the death with dignity option already legal in my state and have no doubt that it was the right choice for my family member, though really just part of a larger set of choices (i.e. home hospice) that made it possible for him to say farewell on his own terms.
It did end up illustrating some of the reasons to have a MAID option that’s administered directly by a medical professional, or more easily by the patient. There was a ticking clock on his ability to physically go through with consuming the drugs (in a specific way that I don’t think anyone exactly predicted going in) which meant a fear of waiting too long and losing the choice. Also my understanding is that a massive overdose of oral drugs is always a bit unpredictable, though they’ve got a reliable sequence down pretty well these days and it was not an issue for us. At the same time, limiting the option to self-administration and to terminal diagnoses only does minimize a lot of obvious potential ethical issues, so I’m not completely sure where the line should be drawn. But I’m pretty sure most people, if they saw the “end of life option” the way I saw it, would come out believing in it.
posted by atoxyl at 12:56 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
It seems so simple and peaceful that I have no idea why anyone is screwing around with nitrogen chamber contraptions.
I also have had a very close-up view of the death with dignity option already legal in my state and have no doubt that it was the right choice for my family member, though really just part of a larger set of choices (i.e. home hospice) that made it possible for him to say farewell on his own terms.
It did end up illustrating some of the reasons to have a MAID option that’s administered directly by a medical professional, or more easily by the patient. There was a ticking clock on his ability to physically go through with consuming the drugs (in a specific way that I don’t think anyone exactly predicted going in) which meant a fear of waiting too long and losing the choice. Also my understanding is that a massive overdose of oral drugs is always a bit unpredictable, though they’ve got a reliable sequence down pretty well these days and it was not an issue for us. At the same time, limiting the option to self-administration and to terminal diagnoses only does minimize a lot of obvious potential ethical issues, so I’m not completely sure where the line should be drawn. But I’m pretty sure most people, if they saw the “end of life option” the way I saw it, would come out believing in it.
posted by atoxyl at 12:56 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
Think I'd prefer N2O so I'd die laughing?
Assuming one had the budget, I'd recommend an upgrade to Xenon.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 1:07 PM on September 24 [1 favorite]
Assuming one had the budget, I'd recommend an upgrade to Xenon.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 1:07 PM on September 24 [1 favorite]
My dive instructor relayed a tale about a friend of his who nearly died when one of their deep dive team suddenly swam off and started down the pelagic shelf.
...his friend, and another advanced diver, swam after the person and almost killed themselves in pursuit before they gave up and required complicated resurfacing procedures (such as having secondary divers bring down extra tanks to them while they waited at various depths).
They later figured out the errant diver did it on purpose, in order to die.
My instructor was still furious at the dead diver, for endangering the others.
...having said that, he did also admit that he'd probably do the same thing if he needed to end his life, because (as he put it) "go deep enough and you'll giggle the whole time you're dying". As someone who'd experienced depth narcosis himself, he figured it would be a pretty nice way to die, but only if he could slip into the water alone so nobody had to watch him swim to his death.
posted by aramaic at 1:14 PM on September 24 [10 favorites]
...his friend, and another advanced diver, swam after the person and almost killed themselves in pursuit before they gave up and required complicated resurfacing procedures (such as having secondary divers bring down extra tanks to them while they waited at various depths).
They later figured out the errant diver did it on purpose, in order to die.
My instructor was still furious at the dead diver, for endangering the others.
...having said that, he did also admit that he'd probably do the same thing if he needed to end his life, because (as he put it) "go deep enough and you'll giggle the whole time you're dying". As someone who'd experienced depth narcosis himself, he figured it would be a pretty nice way to die, but only if he could slip into the water alone so nobody had to watch him swim to his death.
posted by aramaic at 1:14 PM on September 24 [10 favorites]
I hope you can deliver your position to the hundreds of thousands of actual people that die in extended, miserable agony every year - more than in e.g. any ongoing genocides!, (and certainly more NOW than in any hypothetical cull of disabled people) because they have incurable diseases and aren't allowed by law to end their lives or have people help them end them.
My feeling is that you can't have a policy based on "sure, this will be used by the state to murder disabled people who don't want to die, but it will spare many, many more people a painful death", that's all.
You just can't start from that point. You can't start by saying that disabled people who want to live should be sacrificed because otherwise the state won't provide euthanasia to people who want it. Disability activists warned that MAID would be used to pressure them to accept death, and that's what has happened.
My mother died a horrible lingering death. I'm scared of dying the same way. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to spare myself and my family by killing myself on my own. But right now, the states we have cannot be trusted to administer euthanasia. If I have to suffer unto a horrible death so that someone with serious disabilities isn't pushed to kill themselves, that's the only principled thing to do, no matter how awful it is. I don't get to advocate for a program that I know is used to kill people who don't want to die just because I want to die.
~~
Also, frankly, I think there's going to be mission creep. MAID pressed on the expensive disabled now, MAID pressed on the expensive elderly later. And that's Canada, a nation of soft uwu snowflakes compared to genocide central down here.
Just like it would be great to have a police force that was trustworthy enough to, like, solve crimes rather than beat and kill men of color having seizures, it would be great to have a state that was trustworthy enough to administer euthanasia to people who need it. We don't have that state. I don't see a near-medium possibility of that state. We can't just give the state more murder powers right now because we see what they do with the ones they have.
posted by Frowner at 1:33 PM on September 24 [25 favorites]
My feeling is that you can't have a policy based on "sure, this will be used by the state to murder disabled people who don't want to die, but it will spare many, many more people a painful death", that's all.
You just can't start from that point. You can't start by saying that disabled people who want to live should be sacrificed because otherwise the state won't provide euthanasia to people who want it. Disability activists warned that MAID would be used to pressure them to accept death, and that's what has happened.
My mother died a horrible lingering death. I'm scared of dying the same way. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to spare myself and my family by killing myself on my own. But right now, the states we have cannot be trusted to administer euthanasia. If I have to suffer unto a horrible death so that someone with serious disabilities isn't pushed to kill themselves, that's the only principled thing to do, no matter how awful it is. I don't get to advocate for a program that I know is used to kill people who don't want to die just because I want to die.
~~
Also, frankly, I think there's going to be mission creep. MAID pressed on the expensive disabled now, MAID pressed on the expensive elderly later. And that's Canada, a nation of soft uwu snowflakes compared to genocide central down here.
Just like it would be great to have a police force that was trustworthy enough to, like, solve crimes rather than beat and kill men of color having seizures, it would be great to have a state that was trustworthy enough to administer euthanasia to people who need it. We don't have that state. I don't see a near-medium possibility of that state. We can't just give the state more murder powers right now because we see what they do with the ones they have.
posted by Frowner at 1:33 PM on September 24 [25 favorites]
I add that I am extremely opposed to the idea, upthread, that if homeless disabled people are going to die anyway because the state withholds benefits, we might as well just offer them MAID because it's less painful and they would prefer to die painlessly than in a ravine.
That kind of thinking goes really, really bad places really quickly. "No one will help you and you're going to die an agonizing death, so it's cool that the state will pressure you to accept euthanasia" is going to turn into a LOT of withheld benefits real quick if that's how we decide to roll.
posted by Frowner at 1:35 PM on September 24 [18 favorites]
That kind of thinking goes really, really bad places really quickly. "No one will help you and you're going to die an agonizing death, so it's cool that the state will pressure you to accept euthanasia" is going to turn into a LOT of withheld benefits real quick if that's how we decide to roll.
posted by Frowner at 1:35 PM on September 24 [18 favorites]
I feel like, deciding that MAID is a bad thing because our support for the disabled is poor is like saying that opiates are bad because some people get addicted - that when it comes to the kind of suffering that results from the misapplication of either, it's really important that each case is assessed on an individual level, and people shouldn't be pushed into, or kept out of, the treatment that they prefer
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:43 PM on September 24 [7 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:43 PM on September 24 [7 favorites]
I don't get to advocate for a program that I know is used to kill people who don't want to die just because I want to die.
What about numbers? This isnt just selfish ol' frowner (or lalochezia). There are not actually camps where disabled people are euthanised but there ARE hundreds of thousands of people every year RIGHT NOW who die in agony and whose agony can be stopped by allowing euthanasia.. You are weighing the possible outcome against an actual outcome, NOW.
One should be able to argue for euthanasia without promoting mass forced disabled-people death, and we should be able to optimize both. Arguing against either approach is immoral and increases net suffering at vast scale.
posted by lalochezia at 1:46 PM on September 24 [10 favorites]
What about numbers? This isnt just selfish ol' frowner (or lalochezia). There are not actually camps where disabled people are euthanised but there ARE hundreds of thousands of people every year RIGHT NOW who die in agony and whose agony can be stopped by allowing euthanasia.. You are weighing the possible outcome against an actual outcome, NOW.
One should be able to argue for euthanasia without promoting mass forced disabled-people death, and we should be able to optimize both. Arguing against either approach is immoral and increases net suffering at vast scale.
posted by lalochezia at 1:46 PM on September 24 [10 favorites]
Given that I have no remaining family and no heirs, it seems like a no-brainer that choosing my own time and being able to make my own arrangements would be considered a positive thing if I were debilitated.
But no, I'm constrained by religious assholes. If God's followers don't want me to die like that, they're welcome to come fix my body beforehand. Otherwise, they can fuck right off. If God has a problem with that, that's between me and Him.
As for the armchair philosophers who preach about the dignity of human life, etc., I suggest they solve the problem of people dying horribly, miserably and painfully in countless ways before they worry about someone choosing to exit life on their own recognizance.
To anyone who says they did by advocating peace and love, etc., I suggest they didn't do shit, because all that horribleness is still fucking happening on a daily basis, in countless places around the world.
And I was having such a pleasant Tuesday. As Ed Anger used to say "Now, I'm pig-biting mad!"
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:11 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
But no, I'm constrained by religious assholes. If God's followers don't want me to die like that, they're welcome to come fix my body beforehand. Otherwise, they can fuck right off. If God has a problem with that, that's between me and Him.
As for the armchair philosophers who preach about the dignity of human life, etc., I suggest they solve the problem of people dying horribly, miserably and painfully in countless ways before they worry about someone choosing to exit life on their own recognizance.
To anyone who says they did by advocating peace and love, etc., I suggest they didn't do shit, because all that horribleness is still fucking happening on a daily basis, in countless places around the world.
And I was having such a pleasant Tuesday. As Ed Anger used to say "Now, I'm pig-biting mad!"
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:11 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
I think when it comes to the implementation of MAID in Canada, it's pretty hard to get a good idea of what's really happening from the media coverage. There's been a lot of bad faith from advocates who are hiding their true motivations (often religious objections) and a lot of people speaking for disabled people as a whole without truly representing them. Obviously Canada needs better supports for disabled people, but some of the claims people are making about the intentions behind MAID really don't stand up.
posted by ssg at 2:18 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
posted by ssg at 2:18 PM on September 24 [4 favorites]
He died in 2011 and did lectures
Not in that order, I assume.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:13 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
Not in that order, I assume.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:13 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
My bias here is that my paternal grandfather died of assisted suicide, except since this was the 1980s, it wasn't legal. His first attempt was with his second wife. After he had ingested whatever he planned to kill himself, she freaked out and called 911 and they pumped his stomach. So then he enlisted his only child, my dad, to help him out. And because my dad couldn't emotionally handle verifying that his dad was dead, that final task ultimately fell to my mom. My dad doesn't really like to talk about it (though he supported his dad's choice), but my mom has shared that they were both anxious they were going to get arrested and charged with manslaughter. They weren't, thankfully, but another reason why I'm firmly pro-choice when it comes to when to end one's life is that a medicalized option for suicide means that people won't have to choose between helping a family member and risking criminalization, and leaving them to die alone (and potentially suffer if it goes poorly).
I read some of the links provided about Canada, but I didn't see any examples of the state "murder[ing] disabled people" as claimed above, or even pressuring them (but I skimmed parts, so if I missed it please do point me to it) - as some others have said, the fact that the state (in the US too) makes it so hard to live a good life if disabled and lacking support of family, to the point that some may prefer death, is indeed horrific - but if disabled are choosing MAiD because they are stuck in poverty, that seems an issue with poverty and inadequate state support, not MAiD. I can see the need for strict oversight and making sure people really have tried everything and making people wait to access the service - I saw a documentary awhile ago about some European country (I think the Netherlands, but it was awhile ago) where people can receive MAiD as a result of psychological conditions, but there are a lot of guard rails in place to make sure only people who have tried every potential medical intervention (in addition to talk therapy) are granted the option. Not many people get approved in any given year, many (all?) had been suffering for decades.
posted by coffeecat at 4:55 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
I read some of the links provided about Canada, but I didn't see any examples of the state "murder[ing] disabled people" as claimed above, or even pressuring them (but I skimmed parts, so if I missed it please do point me to it) - as some others have said, the fact that the state (in the US too) makes it so hard to live a good life if disabled and lacking support of family, to the point that some may prefer death, is indeed horrific - but if disabled are choosing MAiD because they are stuck in poverty, that seems an issue with poverty and inadequate state support, not MAiD. I can see the need for strict oversight and making sure people really have tried everything and making people wait to access the service - I saw a documentary awhile ago about some European country (I think the Netherlands, but it was awhile ago) where people can receive MAiD as a result of psychological conditions, but there are a lot of guard rails in place to make sure only people who have tried every potential medical intervention (in addition to talk therapy) are granted the option. Not many people get approved in any given year, many (all?) had been suffering for decades.
posted by coffeecat at 4:55 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
If I have to suffer unto a horrible death so that someone with serious disabilities isn't pushed to kill themselves, that's the only principled thing to do, no matter how awful it is. I don't get to advocate for a program that I know is used to kill people who don't want to die just because I want to die.I mean, if you think that dying in agony is the only principled decision you can make on that chance that your suffering will help solve one of the most complex problems that a modern society has, I guess good for you? But if you are advocating for removing that option from the thousands of Canadians who are currently seeing MAID as the only escape they have from a life of pain, I think that's a monstrously arrogant choice. Others upthread have already mentioned other procedures, drugs and tools that are mis-used to avoid better care for vulnerable individuals. Will you eschew each of them so that you can pass this bizarre purity test that you've applied to yourself? What ideological microscope do you have with which you've measured the burden of one group of suffering people against another and found the risk of harm due to negligence and indifference to one to outweigh the WILLFUL certainty of harm to another? For that matter, how do you even justify choosing for the neglected disabled that THEY must live in agony as a martyr in the hope that their suffering will improve the lot of others without sufficient support? Have YOU exhausted all other means of offering support to them that does not condemn thousands a year to inescapable agony?
posted by WaylandSmith at 5:29 PM on September 24 [11 favorites]
Canada's was not originally a policy choice, the Supreme Court of Canada found concerning the previous criminal law restrictions: "Section 241 (b) and s. 14 of the Criminal Code unjustifiably infringe s. 7 of the Charter and are of no force or effect to the extent that they prohibit physician-assisted death for a competent adult person who (1) clearly consents to the termination of life and (2) has a grievous and irremediable medical condition (including an illness, disease or disability) that causes enduring suffering that is intolerable to the individual in the circumstances of his or her condition" in the Carter case in 2016. The government's policy approach to the issue remains constrained by constitutional law, though I'm not defending the policy choices they have made. The decision is worth a read in terms of one way of thinking about balancing autonomy and protection.
For context, s 7 is "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice." One core part of the decision was the factual finding that people were ending their lives early, before losing the physical ability to do so unassisted, and therefore the prohibition on assistance was depriving them of life they would rather have had. And this limit was not found to be justified by other considerations, after extensive review of evidence.
For the most part, legal strategies haven't been able to get s 7 to extend to creating positive obligations to help people, though, contributing to an imbalance. The situation where people are in an intolerable situation due to lack of support has no directly comparable remedy.
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:47 PM on September 24
For context, s 7 is "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice." One core part of the decision was the factual finding that people were ending their lives early, before losing the physical ability to do so unassisted, and therefore the prohibition on assistance was depriving them of life they would rather have had. And this limit was not found to be justified by other considerations, after extensive review of evidence.
For the most part, legal strategies haven't been able to get s 7 to extend to creating positive obligations to help people, though, contributing to an imbalance. The situation where people are in an intolerable situation due to lack of support has no directly comparable remedy.
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:47 PM on September 24
I think the distinction between decriminalization and legalization might be useful here. I would like assisted suicide to be decriminalized, because i don't want people going to jail for helping their loved ones. I do not think it should be legalized, because it has been legalized in Canada and the state is pretty aggressively pushing it as the only option for people it doesn't care about.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:31 PM on September 24 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:31 PM on September 24 [5 favorites]
I am radically pro-personal-autonomy on the subject of suicide, not just assistance-in-dying. If you don't own your own body, you are not free, period.
However, no state anywhere can ever be trusted with the power to kill people, period (Missouri just proved that again tonight, in a different context); and i think it is always a good idea for there to be a certain amount of personal friction involved in the process of ending one's life.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:34 PM on September 24 [5 favorites]
However, no state anywhere can ever be trusted with the power to kill people, period (Missouri just proved that again tonight, in a different context); and i think it is always a good idea for there to be a certain amount of personal friction involved in the process of ending one's life.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:34 PM on September 24 [5 favorites]
I hope I am able to realize that my death is imminent, and can do something about it. Find a crevasse somewhere without any Puma's in it.
Maybe someone will find me in 500 years and I will be famous. Given climate change probably not...
posted by Windopaene at 8:02 PM on September 24 [1 favorite]
Maybe someone will find me in 500 years and I will be famous. Given climate change probably not...
posted by Windopaene at 8:02 PM on September 24 [1 favorite]
because it has been legalized in Canada and the state is pretty aggressively pushing it as the only option for people it doesn't care about.
I promise you, this is not true. There have definitely been situations where doctors have spoken to patients about MAID in a way that they should not have, but there is absolutely no state-level plan to push it on disabled people or any other group. A few people are saying that they feel like they have little other choice due to a lack of sufficient support for disabled people (which is a situation that has not changed significantly since before the introduction of MAID), but the idea that the state is pushing MAID, aggressively or otherwise, is far from reality in Canada.
The most recent data from 2022 shows that 96.5% of people choosing MAID in Canada had a reasonably foreseeable natural death. The means the number of people in Canada who chose MAID in 2022 who didn't have a reasonably foreseeable natural death was less than 500 in total (and half of those had a neurological condition like Parkinson's, ALS, MS, etc).
posted by ssg at 9:03 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
I promise you, this is not true. There have definitely been situations where doctors have spoken to patients about MAID in a way that they should not have, but there is absolutely no state-level plan to push it on disabled people or any other group. A few people are saying that they feel like they have little other choice due to a lack of sufficient support for disabled people (which is a situation that has not changed significantly since before the introduction of MAID), but the idea that the state is pushing MAID, aggressively or otherwise, is far from reality in Canada.
The most recent data from 2022 shows that 96.5% of people choosing MAID in Canada had a reasonably foreseeable natural death. The means the number of people in Canada who chose MAID in 2022 who didn't have a reasonably foreseeable natural death was less than 500 in total (and half of those had a neurological condition like Parkinson's, ALS, MS, etc).
posted by ssg at 9:03 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
The Times (UK) reports that a double pod option is available for those who want to go together and for me, something I missed in my original post that's interesting, is the idea that the makers of the Sarco are inciting suicide, which is one of the reasons for their arrest. Is making a comfortable, drug free death in an idyllic location, if you like, together with your loved one, available, incitement?
posted by toycamera at 9:25 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
posted by toycamera at 9:25 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
I would just like to thank everyone in this thread for this discussion as it's a topic that is difficult to research.
I've heard of the allegations about the Canadian approach to MAID and I appreciate reading people stating different sides of the issue.
I'm not a moderator so it's not my place to say much except, can we try to treat one another with respect and compassion? This is a very difficult topic that we all feel strongly about, and it's probably good to give one another the benefit of the doubt, that we're arguing from a place of compassion and pain, and not selfish righteousness?
posted by Zumbador at 11:25 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
I've heard of the allegations about the Canadian approach to MAID and I appreciate reading people stating different sides of the issue.
I'm not a moderator so it's not my place to say much except, can we try to treat one another with respect and compassion? This is a very difficult topic that we all feel strongly about, and it's probably good to give one another the benefit of the doubt, that we're arguing from a place of compassion and pain, and not selfish righteousness?
posted by Zumbador at 11:25 PM on September 24 [3 favorites]
Lack of oxygen does not trigger feelings of breathlessness or being smothered.
Can confirm, having personally experienced this as a younger man with a far more reckless attitude toward inhalants.
Nitrogen gas canisters are not hard to come by.
Nor are easily spilt dewar flasks of liquid nitrogen. Dump a couple litres of that stuff on the floor in a small room and the local oxygen concentration will drop below life sustaining levels a lot faster than cracking the valve on even quite a large pressurized canister will ever achieve. There's a reason for all those warning labels.
It would not take a 3d printing effort or any big time new tech to replicate this setup.
And fully replicating it isn't even close to necessary if the aim is death via the same route, as endless accidental workplace deaths by confined-space asphyxiation clearly demonstrate.
That said, the main benefit of the Sarco device for its end user is that it's well designed enough to reduce the risk of partial, nonlethal asphyxiation, which comes with a high risk of complete autonomy loss via brain injury, to negligible levels. I can see no moral justification whatsoever for putting anybody in the position having no better option than to take that kind of risk.
posted by flabdablet at 11:39 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
Can confirm, having personally experienced this as a younger man with a far more reckless attitude toward inhalants.
Nitrogen gas canisters are not hard to come by.
Nor are easily spilt dewar flasks of liquid nitrogen. Dump a couple litres of that stuff on the floor in a small room and the local oxygen concentration will drop below life sustaining levels a lot faster than cracking the valve on even quite a large pressurized canister will ever achieve. There's a reason for all those warning labels.
It would not take a 3d printing effort or any big time new tech to replicate this setup.
And fully replicating it isn't even close to necessary if the aim is death via the same route, as endless accidental workplace deaths by confined-space asphyxiation clearly demonstrate.
That said, the main benefit of the Sarco device for its end user is that it's well designed enough to reduce the risk of partial, nonlethal asphyxiation, which comes with a high risk of complete autonomy loss via brain injury, to negligible levels. I can see no moral justification whatsoever for putting anybody in the position having no better option than to take that kind of risk.
posted by flabdablet at 11:39 PM on September 24 [2 favorites]
According to Wikipedia, the Sarco pod is liquid nitrogen based. The article even gives the quantity, and has done so since 2019. This horse has pretty comprehensively bolted. Does Switzerland also propose to arrest the Internet, or perhaps just Jimmy Wales?
posted by flabdablet at 12:02 AM on September 25 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:02 AM on September 25 [2 favorites]
There have definitely been situations where doctors have spoken to patients about MAID in a way that they should not have...
As I understand the Australian legislation, not sure if this is the same in all states, your doctor is not allowed to mention it. You have to ask for it. But I did hear a story of a Canadian health insurer saying to a patient that they would not fund his cancer operation but they would fund MAID, which strikes me as a little ... well let's just say ... uncalled for.
posted by toycamera at 2:27 AM on September 25 [4 favorites]
As I understand the Australian legislation, not sure if this is the same in all states, your doctor is not allowed to mention it. You have to ask for it. But I did hear a story of a Canadian health insurer saying to a patient that they would not fund his cancer operation but they would fund MAID, which strikes me as a little ... well let's just say ... uncalled for.
posted by toycamera at 2:27 AM on September 25 [4 favorites]
It’s quite insane that suicide is against the law, but executing innocent people is mandated.
posted by varion at 5:32 AM on September 25 [9 favorites]
posted by varion at 5:32 AM on September 25 [9 favorites]
Was recently researching this topic at the request of a friend and was concerned about the kind of exits that can endanger other people. I think the part of this device that I find appealing is that, assuming the action is completely consensual and voluntary, it does not endanger other people at all. Physically, at least. I am surprised that anyone got arrested over this, but I am not an expert in Swiss law or anything else. Good post, and I really appreciate frowner’s comments.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:57 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:57 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
EDIT: wrong thread
posted by sotonohito at 6:10 PM on September 25
posted by sotonohito at 6:10 PM on September 25
From the Times UK : "I sat in Dr Death’s suicide pod (then had dinner with its maker)" (archive)
posted by toycamera at 8:16 PM on September 25
posted by toycamera at 8:16 PM on September 25
I have an aquaintance/friend (more than an acquaintance, less than a close friend) who is releasing a memoir entitled Something, Not Nothing* which is about the aftermath of her partner's use of MAID after years of chronic pain and suffering from myalgic encephalomyelitis, one of those diagnoses for which the medical system doesn't seem to offer any concrete help. It's harrowing, and difficult to read. In an interview Sarah says:
*I had considered making an FPP, as I think it's an important book, but as I say, she's a friend. Anyone else, feel free.
posted by jokeefe at 12:20 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
...I have complicated feelings about MAiD. Bottom line: I think anyone who wants an assisted death should be able to have one. And at the same time, we live in a country where people can’t get what they need to live — like people with disabilities who rely on government “support” that keeps them below the poverty line. People like Donimo, who have chronic illnesses that don’t respond to treatment, are often treated with open contempt, disbelief, and hostility by the healthcare system. Honestly, some of the most respectful, compassionate and effective care she got from doctors was after she decided to have MAiD.I have another friend who went to Dignitas in Switzerland as her final hurrah, and as I now live in a part of the Coast where the local population skews over 65, have met others who are prepared to use it and I know of those who already have. It concentrates the mind wonderfully, as the saying goes, directly facing age and the reality of dementia and chronic disability. I would not hesitate to free my wife from the potential burden of caring for a demented me; we are already both primary caretakers for our mothers (one 87 and profoundly lost in Alzheimers, the other 91 and cheerful but suffering memory loss) so I'm just not going to imprison her with having to wait on me for a decade or more.
*I had considered making an FPP, as I think it's an important book, but as I say, she's a friend. Anyone else, feel free.
posted by jokeefe at 12:20 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
NYT: In Switzerland, Reported Use of Suicide Capsule Inflames Debate The Swiss police said they had detained “several individuals” after a 64-year-old American woman reportedly died by suicide using the controversial device.
Now, the authorities in the canton of Schaffhausen said they had arrested “several people” who may have helped the woman die. Among the detained were two lawyers, a photographer for the Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant, and Florian Willet, the director of the Last Resort, a group that facilitates assisted suicide in Switzerland. Mr. Willet was the only person present when the woman died, Mr. Nitschke said. He then contacted two lawyers, who informed the authorities of her death.
The authorities said they were detaining the individuals on charges of “incitement and aiding and abetting suicide.”
Although advocates of the Sarco capsule say it is compliant with Swiss law — and that users must be evaluated by medical professionals before they are approved for use — some officials and experts have decried it as inhumane and said it had not been tested sufficiently. The Swiss authorities said they warned its manufacturers that using the device in the country would be illegal.
“We warned them in writing. We said that if they came to Schaffhausen and used Sarco, they would face criminal consequences,” Peter Sticher, a prosecutor in Schaffhausen, the region of Switzerland where the device was used, told the newspaper Blick.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:31 AM on September 27
Now, the authorities in the canton of Schaffhausen said they had arrested “several people” who may have helped the woman die. Among the detained were two lawyers, a photographer for the Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant, and Florian Willet, the director of the Last Resort, a group that facilitates assisted suicide in Switzerland. Mr. Willet was the only person present when the woman died, Mr. Nitschke said. He then contacted two lawyers, who informed the authorities of her death.
The authorities said they were detaining the individuals on charges of “incitement and aiding and abetting suicide.”
Although advocates of the Sarco capsule say it is compliant with Swiss law — and that users must be evaluated by medical professionals before they are approved for use — some officials and experts have decried it as inhumane and said it had not been tested sufficiently. The Swiss authorities said they warned its manufacturers that using the device in the country would be illegal.
“We warned them in writing. We said that if they came to Schaffhausen and used Sarco, they would face criminal consequences,” Peter Sticher, a prosecutor in Schaffhausen, the region of Switzerland where the device was used, told the newspaper Blick.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:31 AM on September 27
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posted by seanmpuckett at 6:58 AM on September 24 [18 favorites]