her husband, a local councillor, a journalist, a firefighter, a nurse
September 25, 2024 11:24 AM Subscribe
A horror exposed. Content warning so much goddamn rape. By making her ordeal public, Gisèle Pelicot forces men to confront the fact that ordinary men, shaped by the same culture, are capable of extraordinary harm. Some men literally get off on secretly hating and sabotaging their wives. See also: Misogyny’s disparate pieces; influencers driving misogyny.
this is so utterly horrifying it's difficult to process. I am a woman, married to a man I completely trust. I cannot imagine being confronted with such truth.
she is extraordinarily brave for coming forward. I hope her husband rots in prison and then rots in hell.
posted by supermedusa at 11:44 AM on September 25 [16 favorites]
she is extraordinarily brave for coming forward. I hope her husband rots in prison and then rots in hell.
posted by supermedusa at 11:44 AM on September 25 [16 favorites]
Also, how fucking representative of this horror is it that they had to massively expand the dock in the courtroom to fit all the rapists in?
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:44 AM on September 25 [11 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:44 AM on September 25 [11 favorites]
Jesus fucking Christ. I literally cannot imagine her bravery. I wish there were a place to send her support mail, but of course there can't be, because too many men would likely send her hate mail.
posted by corb at 11:46 AM on September 25 [15 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:46 AM on September 25 [15 favorites]
The banality of evil, indeed.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:59 AM on September 25 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:59 AM on September 25 [3 favorites]
That Rachel Hewitt article asks some very pertinent questions. For a long time I have struggled with the question of WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MEN??? and never been able to understand it. I mean, I know a lot of good men in my life, and #notallmen, yadda yadda. But you look at the seamy underbelly of sex crimes and IT IS ALWAYS MEN. 95% of the time.
There has to be an honest discussion at some point about what causes men, and only men, to act this way. To want to do these things. And we need this discussion not as a way to hold men accountable or to punish them, but literally to help men to stop being like this. What causes men to have these impulses?
This has been a public health emergency for women since the dawn of civilization, and isn't it about time we studied it and tried to find actual epidemiological solutions to the problem? We need to be measuring the number of downloads a certain set of violent porn gets, for example, not tracking the users but knowing what the usage rates are. We need to be measuring and tracking the rates of sexual crimes which currently don't even get reported let alone taken seriously, perhaps by starting pilot programs in colleges for students to report instances of, say, catcalling or harassment by students or teachers or even guys on the street. Not with the intention of punishing offenders but rather with the intention of MEASURING the scale of the problem. We need studies conducted in various classes of college men to see which efforts to correct men's behavior work best: will rates of reports of harassment fall by requiring them to become educated on harassment? Or will reported incidents of harassment fall more steeply when the campus has a new rule that all men must be chaperoned after 9 pm in all public and mixed gender areas? Is it a testosterone issue? Is it the fact that men are only safe when they're a small minority of the population, and we need to recruit 4 female students for every male? Like what is the magic combo of circumstances that will stop men from acting this way?
What I'm saying is, it's well past time to SCIENCE this shit. I cannot stand impotent rage and hand wringing and finger pointing any longer. I can't even withstand the urge to label all men as terrible and start talking about crone island. We live in a society, goddamn it. Most of the men who do terrible things are loved by the people in their lives, and men belong in the fabric of society. What we need is a way to fix men, not a way to exclude men. Let's figure out what makes men behave in antisocial ways. Let's develop treatments. We need real solutions.
posted by MiraK at 12:08 PM on September 25 [65 favorites]
There has to be an honest discussion at some point about what causes men, and only men, to act this way. To want to do these things. And we need this discussion not as a way to hold men accountable or to punish them, but literally to help men to stop being like this. What causes men to have these impulses?
This has been a public health emergency for women since the dawn of civilization, and isn't it about time we studied it and tried to find actual epidemiological solutions to the problem? We need to be measuring the number of downloads a certain set of violent porn gets, for example, not tracking the users but knowing what the usage rates are. We need to be measuring and tracking the rates of sexual crimes which currently don't even get reported let alone taken seriously, perhaps by starting pilot programs in colleges for students to report instances of, say, catcalling or harassment by students or teachers or even guys on the street. Not with the intention of punishing offenders but rather with the intention of MEASURING the scale of the problem. We need studies conducted in various classes of college men to see which efforts to correct men's behavior work best: will rates of reports of harassment fall by requiring them to become educated on harassment? Or will reported incidents of harassment fall more steeply when the campus has a new rule that all men must be chaperoned after 9 pm in all public and mixed gender areas? Is it a testosterone issue? Is it the fact that men are only safe when they're a small minority of the population, and we need to recruit 4 female students for every male? Like what is the magic combo of circumstances that will stop men from acting this way?
What I'm saying is, it's well past time to SCIENCE this shit. I cannot stand impotent rage and hand wringing and finger pointing any longer. I can't even withstand the urge to label all men as terrible and start talking about crone island. We live in a society, goddamn it. Most of the men who do terrible things are loved by the people in their lives, and men belong in the fabric of society. What we need is a way to fix men, not a way to exclude men. Let's figure out what makes men behave in antisocial ways. Let's develop treatments. We need real solutions.
posted by MiraK at 12:08 PM on September 25 [65 favorites]
I've been following this. I was impressed that one of her lawyers realized that having her go through the metal detector at the court with everyone else meant that she would be stuck in close quarters with her assaulters and demanded the court make other arrangements. For some reason, that was the moment that the full awfulness of it came into focus. If this was a second-string French Extremity film, I would think it was a little much, but real life can out-horror horror most days.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:09 PM on September 25 [22 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:09 PM on September 25 [22 favorites]
It's just occurred to me that a quick and easy solution might be to leverage the power of capitalism here.
Require all human adults to carry sexual assault insurance, like all drivers carry car insurance. Let insurance companies try to make a profit off of preventing sex crimes. Men can deal with high premiums.. and victims can get insurance payouts and yes, I know, the idea isn't perfect, but damn it would be a GREAT start. I bet our society would start sciencing the shit out of how exactly to lower sexual assault incidence once an insurance company has to even theoretically give payouts to victims.
posted by MiraK at 12:19 PM on September 25 [20 favorites]
Require all human adults to carry sexual assault insurance, like all drivers carry car insurance. Let insurance companies try to make a profit off of preventing sex crimes. Men can deal with high premiums.. and victims can get insurance payouts and yes, I know, the idea isn't perfect, but damn it would be a GREAT start. I bet our society would start sciencing the shit out of how exactly to lower sexual assault incidence once an insurance company has to even theoretically give payouts to victims.
posted by MiraK at 12:19 PM on September 25 [20 favorites]
jesus fucking wept.
(and of course my first thought was "don't read the comments [on the linked websites] because they will probably be violently pro-rape". )
and then there's the classically nauseating pro-rape apologia from the local mayor:
"the mayor of Mazan suggested that Gisele Pelicot’s lack of memory makes the experience more palatable than other, “even more serious” rapes." Excuse me, what?
and the frankly fucking horrifying defense tactics to somehow claim Gisèle Pelicot somehow "invited" this:
"Pélicot’s stance is particularly significant because, by keeping the trial open to public scrutiny, she also exposed the misogynistic and cruel tactics often employed by defence lawyers in rape cases.
"The line of questioning Pélicot faced – questions that implicitly blamed her for the violence she endured, suggesting she somehow invited it – was shocking in its cruelty. Yet, because the trial was held openly, these tactics were exposed to the world, igniting widespread public outrage."
This shit always reminds me of the first chapter of Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman, especially this bit:
"After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies: it never happened; the victim lies; the victim exaggerates; the victim brought it on herself; and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on."
I'm so tired. I'm grateful for her strength in making this all public, but I'm so, so tired. MiraK -- what would it take to fix this, indeed? Could we choose to somehow actually take this question seriously, like with money and resources and actual fucking civilization-level effort? What would that look like?
posted by cnidaria at 12:23 PM on September 25 [31 favorites]
(and of course my first thought was "don't read the comments [on the linked websites] because they will probably be violently pro-rape". )
and then there's the classically nauseating pro-rape apologia from the local mayor:
"the mayor of Mazan suggested that Gisele Pelicot’s lack of memory makes the experience more palatable than other, “even more serious” rapes." Excuse me, what?
and the frankly fucking horrifying defense tactics to somehow claim Gisèle Pelicot somehow "invited" this:
"Pélicot’s stance is particularly significant because, by keeping the trial open to public scrutiny, she also exposed the misogynistic and cruel tactics often employed by defence lawyers in rape cases.
"The line of questioning Pélicot faced – questions that implicitly blamed her for the violence she endured, suggesting she somehow invited it – was shocking in its cruelty. Yet, because the trial was held openly, these tactics were exposed to the world, igniting widespread public outrage."
This shit always reminds me of the first chapter of Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman, especially this bit:
"After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies: it never happened; the victim lies; the victim exaggerates; the victim brought it on herself; and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on."
I'm so tired. I'm grateful for her strength in making this all public, but I'm so, so tired. MiraK -- what would it take to fix this, indeed? Could we choose to somehow actually take this question seriously, like with money and resources and actual fucking civilization-level effort? What would that look like?
posted by cnidaria at 12:23 PM on September 25 [31 favorites]
What would that look like?It would look like treating men as a hostile occupying force.
posted by june_dodecahedron at 12:27 PM on September 25 [28 favorites]
When I first read about this, the wind was knocked out of me. I could not imagine that her husband--a partner, a co-parent--would do something so heinous and videotape all of it.
The excuses of the rapists are bullshit. They got what power-tripping men want: the ability to rape a woman without thought or consideration.
posted by Kitteh at 12:29 PM on September 25 [12 favorites]
The excuses of the rapists are bullshit. They got what power-tripping men want: the ability to rape a woman without thought or consideration.
posted by Kitteh at 12:29 PM on September 25 [12 favorites]
> I could not imagine that her husband--a partner, a co-parent--would do something so heinous and videotape all of it.
Most people who commit rape do it to their partners. I mean okay they don't usually videotape it but the #1 most common form of rape is men raping their wives hundreds and thousands of times throughout the wife's lifetime.
A huge majority of the women in this world have been raped by their husbands and male partners. If this seems wild to you, consider that the entire country of India says it's not even a crime if you rape your wife. USA did not consider it illegal until the early 1990s. And even today, how many women report it when it happens? It's only theretically illegal.
posted by MiraK at 12:33 PM on September 25 [28 favorites]
Most people who commit rape do it to their partners. I mean okay they don't usually videotape it but the #1 most common form of rape is men raping their wives hundreds and thousands of times throughout the wife's lifetime.
A huge majority of the women in this world have been raped by their husbands and male partners. If this seems wild to you, consider that the entire country of India says it's not even a crime if you rape your wife. USA did not consider it illegal until the early 1990s. And even today, how many women report it when it happens? It's only theretically illegal.
posted by MiraK at 12:33 PM on September 25 [28 favorites]
Yes, I am aware of that, but this just takes it beyond the pale. It is a reminder that wives are seen as property, not people.
posted by Kitteh at 12:35 PM on September 25 [5 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:35 PM on September 25 [5 favorites]
We've had coverage of the trial in the UK for the last couple of weeks, and it's just been an utter calvacade of horror. Not just that so many in one small area were happy to be rapists, but more men knew, and not one reported it. So many colluding, including a number of not yet identified. There is something pervasive and *desperately* common in so many men that just isn't bothered by this, or will actively be rapists themselves.
The mayor of the town is quoted briefly in the National article; I thought I'd quote his full comments to the BBC, because, well, holy fuck.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:37 PM on September 25 [23 favorites]
The mayor of the town is quoted briefly in the National article; I thought I'd quote his full comments to the BBC, because, well, holy fuck.
Mazan’s 74-year-old mayor, Louis Bonnet, sought to play down those tensions, arguing that most of the alleged rapists came from other villages and seeking to frame the Pelicots as outsiders who hadn’t lived there long.And in case anyone thinks this is a French specific issue, a study in the US in 2015.
He went further, saying the threats against the accused and their families were to be expected.
“If they participated in these rapes, then it’s normal that they’re considered targets. There has to be transparency about everything that happened,” he said, while also condemning the accused and their actions.
In his interview with us, Bonnet talked about the case itself, and in doing so veered towards the sort of attitudes that have already sparked fury in France as well as deep admiration for Gisèle Pelicot’s courage in confronting them.
“People here say ‘no one was killed’. It would have been much worse if [Pelicot] had killed his wife. But that didn’t happen in this case,” Bonnet said.
Then he went on to address Gisèle Pelicot’s experiences.
“She’ll have trouble getting back on her feet again for sure,” he agreed, but suggested her rapes were less troubling than those of another victim in the nearby town of Carpentras who “was conscious when she was raped… and will carry the physical and mental trauma for a long time, which is even more serious”.
“When there are kids involved, or women killed, then that’s very serious because there’s no way back. In this case, the family will have to rebuild itself. It will be hard. But they’re not dead, so they can still do it.”
When I suggested that he was seeking to play down the gravity of the Pelicot case, he agreed.
“Yes, I am. What happened was very serious. But I’m not going to say the village has to bear the memory of a crime which goes beyond the limits of what can be considered acceptable,” he said.
His phrasing seemed clumsy. He was condemning the case. He didn’t want his village to be branded by it forever.
But he also appeared to belittle Gisèle Pelicot’s trauma.
I pushed back once again. Many women believed this case had exposed particular types of male behaviour that needed to change, I said.
“We can always wish to change attitudes, and we should. But in reality, there’s no magic formula. The people who acted in this way are impossible to understand and shouldn't be excused or understood. But it still exists,” replied Bonnet.
*ONLY* 13.6%?!!!! And another 18.1% if you don't call it rape.
Amongst other questions they were asked how they would act in a situation where they could have sexual intercourse with a woman against her will “if nobody would ever know and there wouldn’t be any consequences”.
"31.7% of all men participating in the study would force a woman to have sexual intercourse in such a “consequence-free situation” – which is rape.
Worryingly, most men who indicated that they would commit rape did not even recognise their actions as such.
When explicitly asked whether they would rape a woman if there were no consequences, only 13.6% of participants said they would do so, a marked fall on those who had described that they would commit rape.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:37 PM on September 25 [23 favorites]
A huge majority of the women in this world have been raped by their husbands and male partners.
Respectfully, I highly doubt this is an accurate claim. Perhaps you mean, of those victims of rape, the perpetrators have been their partners?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:46 PM on September 25 [5 favorites]
Respectfully, I highly doubt this is an accurate claim. Perhaps you mean, of those victims of rape, the perpetrators have been their partners?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:46 PM on September 25 [5 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Be sensitive to context: Please engage with the topic of the subject and what people are discussing in the thread and refrain from making ironic/light jokes in a serious discussion.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:59 PM on September 25 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:59 PM on September 25 [3 favorites]
No I meant what I wrote, leotrotsky. Why would you doubt it? Literally the world's largest countries, India and China, have explicitly said marital rape is fully legal, even to this day. The minority of women in the world live in countries where marital rape is theoretically illegal, but of course, even in these countries this particular crime is endemic and never reported... never even recognized *as* rape even by the victim. Every religion in the world tells women to give men sex even when they don't really want to. Hell most women when polled and surveyed say that it's fair for their partner to demand sex when the woman isn't in the mood. Ask any OBGYN who has spoken to new mothers and they will tell you that almost every new mother's main concern is how soon she is allowed to have sex with her husband who is getting annoyed and angry at waiting.
I am flabbergasted that you don't believe marital sex in the absence of consent is very, very common experience.
posted by MiraK at 1:16 PM on September 25 [43 favorites]
I am flabbergasted that you don't believe marital sex in the absence of consent is very, very common experience.
posted by MiraK at 1:16 PM on September 25 [43 favorites]
"Respectfully, I highly doubt this is an accurate claim. Perhaps you mean, of those victims of rape, the perpetrators have been their partners?"
It's 1 in 3 per WHO.
That's the reported numbers. The real numbers are likely higher, given how many places marital rape is still legal where women have been brainwashed to believe that it's not rape if it's their husband.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:17 PM on September 25 [30 favorites]
It's 1 in 3 per WHO.
That's the reported numbers. The real numbers are likely higher, given how many places marital rape is still legal where women have been brainwashed to believe that it's not rape if it's their husband.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:17 PM on September 25 [30 favorites]
It's 1 in 3 per WHO
obligatory pedantry: this includes all violence, including both physical (non-sexual) and sexual violence, and by both partners and non-partners. But you and MiraK are correct in that the actual rate is almost certainly much higher.
Even if it's not actually a majority of all women in the world, it is a far, far higher percentage than anyone wants to acknowledge.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:20 PM on September 25 [9 favorites]
obligatory pedantry: this includes all violence, including both physical (non-sexual) and sexual violence, and by both partners and non-partners. But you and MiraK are correct in that the actual rate is almost certainly much higher.
Even if it's not actually a majority of all women in the world, it is a far, far higher percentage than anyone wants to acknowledge.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:20 PM on September 25 [9 favorites]
> That's the reported numbers. The real numbers are likely higher,
Yep, for example I have never officially reported the fact that my ex husband repeatedly raped me even though I live in USA and in a pretty woman- friendly state and I'm a feminist who knows what rape is and I have the means, the community support, etc. to report him.
After all, it was only "technically" rape. Not like "real" rape. My ex husband didn't even consider it anywhere within the realm of rape, he was shocked! horrified! betrayed! that I would think he was capable of such an ugly act! Was I insane? Holy shit, he could NOT BELIEVE I was saying he had violated consent and raped me when he ignored my 'no'. Why, he was just trying to get me in the mood! He was trying to help me have a good time!
You know who else reminded me of my ex husband, it was Aziz Ansari. Remember that woman Grace who came forward to talk about how he repeatedly pressured her for oral sex on their date? Wowww that was so familiar - including the part where Ansari acted like wtf?!?!?!?! what is happening?!?! this is crazy?!?!
You don't even have to take my word for it, men will admit it themselves. Just check out what Absolutely No You-Know-What posted above. One third of men will happily and easily ADMIT that they want to rape women (as long as you don't call it rape). Without any shame. Openly. Think how much higher that number is when they are acting in secrecy, behind closed doors without any witnesses. Think how many more do it because they are "clueless" and don't think this is really rape, like my ex or like Aziz Ansari.
posted by MiraK at 1:31 PM on September 25 [28 favorites]
Yep, for example I have never officially reported the fact that my ex husband repeatedly raped me even though I live in USA and in a pretty woman- friendly state and I'm a feminist who knows what rape is and I have the means, the community support, etc. to report him.
After all, it was only "technically" rape. Not like "real" rape. My ex husband didn't even consider it anywhere within the realm of rape, he was shocked! horrified! betrayed! that I would think he was capable of such an ugly act! Was I insane? Holy shit, he could NOT BELIEVE I was saying he had violated consent and raped me when he ignored my 'no'. Why, he was just trying to get me in the mood! He was trying to help me have a good time!
You know who else reminded me of my ex husband, it was Aziz Ansari. Remember that woman Grace who came forward to talk about how he repeatedly pressured her for oral sex on their date? Wowww that was so familiar - including the part where Ansari acted like wtf?!?!?!?! what is happening?!?! this is crazy?!?!
You don't even have to take my word for it, men will admit it themselves. Just check out what Absolutely No You-Know-What posted above. One third of men will happily and easily ADMIT that they want to rape women (as long as you don't call it rape). Without any shame. Openly. Think how much higher that number is when they are acting in secrecy, behind closed doors without any witnesses. Think how many more do it because they are "clueless" and don't think this is really rape, like my ex or like Aziz Ansari.
posted by MiraK at 1:31 PM on September 25 [28 favorites]
"obligatory pedantry: this includes all violence, including both physical (non-sexual) and sexual violence, and by both partners and non-partners"
It says a bit further down the page that only 6% of women have been sexually assaulted by someone other than their husband or partner.
There's going to be some overlap between the groups, i.e. women who have been sexually assaulted both by a husband/partner and by a non-partner.
I also suspect there are very few men who beat their wives and girlfriends but never sexually assault them. Based on the posts I read on Reddit every day, there's tons of men who "would never hit a woman" but feel entitled to their wives' bodies and sexually assault them. Like there are multiple posts per day from women whose husbands raped them when they were still recovering from childbirth and they want to know if they're overreacting by being upset about that because it's not like he hit them.
So it's got to be at least 1 in 4.
But again, I suspect it's a lot higher than reported because marital rape is legal in the most populous countries (China and India) and in many countries where it's technically illegal, sex is still seen as a husband's right / a wife's duty and thus many rape victims don't perceive it as rape.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:40 PM on September 25 [7 favorites]
It says a bit further down the page that only 6% of women have been sexually assaulted by someone other than their husband or partner.
There's going to be some overlap between the groups, i.e. women who have been sexually assaulted both by a husband/partner and by a non-partner.
I also suspect there are very few men who beat their wives and girlfriends but never sexually assault them. Based on the posts I read on Reddit every day, there's tons of men who "would never hit a woman" but feel entitled to their wives' bodies and sexually assault them. Like there are multiple posts per day from women whose husbands raped them when they were still recovering from childbirth and they want to know if they're overreacting by being upset about that because it's not like he hit them.
So it's got to be at least 1 in 4.
But again, I suspect it's a lot higher than reported because marital rape is legal in the most populous countries (China and India) and in many countries where it's technically illegal, sex is still seen as a husband's right / a wife's duty and thus many rape victims don't perceive it as rape.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:40 PM on September 25 [7 favorites]
What I'm saying is, it's well past time to SCIENCE this shit.
So true. We focus so much on who is raped (for good reasons of course). But the gender distribution of rapISTS is nothing short of jawdropping. So many truths that we cannot confront, and thereby leave unexamined, un-scienced, and unchanged, just so that we do not ruffle our own fragile egos.
posted by Dashy at 1:43 PM on September 25 [7 favorites]
So true. We focus so much on who is raped (for good reasons of course). But the gender distribution of rapISTS is nothing short of jawdropping. So many truths that we cannot confront, and thereby leave unexamined, un-scienced, and unchanged, just so that we do not ruffle our own fragile egos.
posted by Dashy at 1:43 PM on September 25 [7 favorites]
Respectfully, I highly doubt this is an accurate claim. Perhaps you mean, of those victims of rape, the perpetrators have been their partners?
It's an accurate claim. I've been married twice; I've been sexually assaulted by both my ex husbands. All this claim is saying is that 51% of women have been sexually assaulted by at least one of their male partners in their lifetime. I suspect it's actually more than that. This is horrifically underreported, because what good is going to come of reporting it, and a lot of it is the "milder version" of "you didn't want to have sex, but they just kept pushing and pushing and there wasn't VIOLENCE, so there's not really going to be any consequences anyway even if you did say anything and no one will even think he did anything wrong."
posted by corb at 1:44 PM on September 25 [28 favorites]
It's an accurate claim. I've been married twice; I've been sexually assaulted by both my ex husbands. All this claim is saying is that 51% of women have been sexually assaulted by at least one of their male partners in their lifetime. I suspect it's actually more than that. This is horrifically underreported, because what good is going to come of reporting it, and a lot of it is the "milder version" of "you didn't want to have sex, but they just kept pushing and pushing and there wasn't VIOLENCE, so there's not really going to be any consequences anyway even if you did say anything and no one will even think he did anything wrong."
posted by corb at 1:44 PM on September 25 [28 favorites]
Ouch.
I just can't even imagine doing that, (as an old, cis-het white male). Let alone what this dude did to his wife.
I want my partner to want me, to want them.
This story is just so fucked up. Haven't seen if the husband was making money off of this, or just being weird and fetishy.
posted by Windopaene at 1:52 PM on September 25 [4 favorites]
I just can't even imagine doing that, (as an old, cis-het white male). Let alone what this dude did to his wife.
I want my partner to want me, to want them.
This story is just so fucked up. Haven't seen if the husband was making money off of this, or just being weird and fetishy.
posted by Windopaene at 1:52 PM on September 25 [4 favorites]
Yes. There is something wrong with men. A useful lens for looking at the world's problems is to ask yourself "Is this really just a man problem?" Murder, rape, domestic violence, child sexual abuse, police violence, political violence, ordinary bar brawls, I could go on and on and on--all man problems. Pedophile priests? Is it really a priest problem? School shootings? Is that really a gun problem? Et cetera, and from the dawn of time.
posted by HotToddy at 2:12 PM on September 25 [26 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 2:12 PM on September 25 [26 favorites]
Does anybody have any links about how this is being received in France? My outside opinion of France is that it seems like a country that thinks of itself as very liberal, but reacts very conservatively.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:25 PM on September 25 [3 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:25 PM on September 25 [3 favorites]
interesting how many terrible men hide terrible behavior and outright crimes behind nonsense eff rhetoric and of course "freedom".
shit was called out in Vertigo, for fucks sake.
technology companies are unregulated media empires.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 2:44 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
shit was called out in Vertigo, for fucks sake.
technology companies are unregulated media empires.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 2:44 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
What I cannot process is that she was in what she thought was a happy marriage for most of her entire life. A lifetime of happy memories that have been poisoned. It's not only that this terrible thing has happened. It would be one thing if that were all of it. But her entire married life has been a cruel joke. So many of her most treasured moments, the kind of things that we all reflect on, reflecting on them now -- you would have to edit the knowledge of him as monster into every memory. And this is her life. She's not a young woman, she won't have time to make new memories, not enough time. This story is just desolation, existential horror.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:52 PM on September 25 [47 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:52 PM on September 25 [47 favorites]
Probably the only reason she thought she was in a happy marriage is because society convinced her it's a happy marriage unless he's beating her frequently. Like what are even the chances that this man was thoughtful and caring and sharing the domestic load and sharing household decisions with her equally and responsible for his own emotional labor and nursing her when she's sick etc.? She was happy with him probably only because she knew there was no possibility of anything better. Women have been gaslit about this shit for millennia, and men have never been expected to treat us like fellow humans.
posted by MiraK at 4:23 PM on September 25 [15 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 4:23 PM on September 25 [15 favorites]
Simians...
posted by jim in austin at 4:44 PM on September 25
posted by jim in austin at 4:44 PM on September 25
Most of the young men I see around where I live seem very conventionally male. The exceptions are notable and few.
Once you get past the horror of this particular example, once you get past the violent aggressions of just.. maleness.. in the day to day. Once you wade through the countless ways men learn how to be emotionally stunted, the cluelessness about what it means to be an equal part of a household. All I'm saying is, masculinity looks shittier the older I get, and I don't see how we fix it. The right wing bullshit happening everywhere is a just a pure manifestation of this. If you are a basically decent person you will be fighting this in a very real way if you somehow aren't already, you cannot avoid what is coming.
posted by ginger.beef at 4:49 PM on September 25 [10 favorites]
Once you get past the horror of this particular example, once you get past the violent aggressions of just.. maleness.. in the day to day. Once you wade through the countless ways men learn how to be emotionally stunted, the cluelessness about what it means to be an equal part of a household. All I'm saying is, masculinity looks shittier the older I get, and I don't see how we fix it. The right wing bullshit happening everywhere is a just a pure manifestation of this. If you are a basically decent person you will be fighting this in a very real way if you somehow aren't already, you cannot avoid what is coming.
posted by ginger.beef at 4:49 PM on September 25 [10 favorites]
I've read about her experience of being routinely and repeatedly drugged by her husband, then raped by numerous random men, many if not most of whom were aware of exactly what was going on. It makes me angry, depressed, appalled, massively distrustful.
There are a shocking number of men who kidnap girls and women and imprison them for rape, sometimes for years.
I can't think about it for too long because it makes it too hard to be a woman.
The content warning is not well-placed and I missed it. I don't ordinarily need one, but, fuck.
posted by theora55 at 5:21 PM on September 25 [9 favorites]
There are a shocking number of men who kidnap girls and women and imprison them for rape, sometimes for years.
I can't think about it for too long because it makes it too hard to be a woman.
The content warning is not well-placed and I missed it. I don't ordinarily need one, but, fuck.
posted by theora55 at 5:21 PM on September 25 [9 favorites]
Men are really dark. I hate it. And I'm a man.
posted by Czjewel at 5:32 PM on September 25 [11 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 5:32 PM on September 25 [11 favorites]
I have struggled with the question of WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MEN??? and never been able to understand it
Entitlement, either indulged or thwarted.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:32 PM on September 25 [8 favorites]
Entitlement, either indulged or thwarted.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:32 PM on September 25 [8 favorites]
Ah christ, it's getting harder to have faith in humanity's basic goodness
posted by signsofrain at 6:04 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
posted by signsofrain at 6:04 PM on September 25 [1 favorite]
In the actual 1990s and 2000s the most popular sex advice columnist in the English language media was still unleashing the godawful "good game and giving" shit. Women in particular, and I suspect a wide swath of queer people, are still offering technical agreement or concession to unwanted and/or unpleasant sex because they don't want to be a bad partner (or face various consequences, often subtle) by declining - thereby being bad, selfish, and and not breathlessly sex-positive to every act their partner wants. And this now in a world where those partners have access to content that normalizes the most extreme and sometimes physically improbable or impossible acts barely imaginable in Dan Savage's world at the time.
I think a whole lot of people who would claim shock at the prevalence of spousal rape think of "stranger in the bushes" rape and therefore how could you do that with someone you live with, you're not a stranger! Or maybe they think punches are thrown. And they don't want to think about the non-response, the negotiation for a less intrusive act because she's not in the mood, the times she's done it because it's just easier to not deal with his response to a no, the times she's done it because she doesn't want to go too long without offering or he might cheat or get angry. Even without the threat of concrete retaliation, we've been told forever that we'll be punished if we don't dispense it in the right ways and part of the invisible work of Keeping Everything Together is making sure he gets that thing men have to have or they'll be bad.
And yet I've never heard a man say he's had the 3am Worries that his partner is only fucking him because she has to rather than because she wants to. I think that's low-key fine for a lot of men, as long as they don't have to think about how that breaks little bits off the heart and soul of their partner, and anyway it's definitely not a thing you could be taken to court over and that's the important part. Her heart, eh. If she really didn't want to, she wouldn't, so it's consent. And it's always such a shock when she leaves.
(And how coincidental that's often when her libido stops being so hormone-driven that one can sometimes coast even under suboptimal conditions.)
We have a culture where open comfortable sexual dialogue has been hindered at every possible turn including with institutionalized disinfo and restricted info, we have largely given up on trying, and that is directly serving the purpose of plausible deniability around consent for the benefit of - for the most part - the people who have the most to lose if they're dealing with an informed and empowered pool of sexual partners.
The concept of "enthusiastic consent" was in part a reaction to the GGG thing, and probably also the "think of England" type advice more likely to be given by mothers and aunts, and also to introduce the idea that intoxication isn't consent. But I just don't have faith in the world anymore that enthusiasm is at the top of the charts in all that many people's sex lives. I've just...known too many women in my life in this point to really believe that.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:24 PM on September 25 [26 favorites]
I think a whole lot of people who would claim shock at the prevalence of spousal rape think of "stranger in the bushes" rape and therefore how could you do that with someone you live with, you're not a stranger! Or maybe they think punches are thrown. And they don't want to think about the non-response, the negotiation for a less intrusive act because she's not in the mood, the times she's done it because it's just easier to not deal with his response to a no, the times she's done it because she doesn't want to go too long without offering or he might cheat or get angry. Even without the threat of concrete retaliation, we've been told forever that we'll be punished if we don't dispense it in the right ways and part of the invisible work of Keeping Everything Together is making sure he gets that thing men have to have or they'll be bad.
And yet I've never heard a man say he's had the 3am Worries that his partner is only fucking him because she has to rather than because she wants to. I think that's low-key fine for a lot of men, as long as they don't have to think about how that breaks little bits off the heart and soul of their partner, and anyway it's definitely not a thing you could be taken to court over and that's the important part. Her heart, eh. If she really didn't want to, she wouldn't, so it's consent. And it's always such a shock when she leaves.
(And how coincidental that's often when her libido stops being so hormone-driven that one can sometimes coast even under suboptimal conditions.)
We have a culture where open comfortable sexual dialogue has been hindered at every possible turn including with institutionalized disinfo and restricted info, we have largely given up on trying, and that is directly serving the purpose of plausible deniability around consent for the benefit of - for the most part - the people who have the most to lose if they're dealing with an informed and empowered pool of sexual partners.
The concept of "enthusiastic consent" was in part a reaction to the GGG thing, and probably also the "think of England" type advice more likely to be given by mothers and aunts, and also to introduce the idea that intoxication isn't consent. But I just don't have faith in the world anymore that enthusiasm is at the top of the charts in all that many people's sex lives. I've just...known too many women in my life in this point to really believe that.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:24 PM on September 25 [26 favorites]
"The problem is men" reflects a gender essentialism that's really not cool. The problem is not men; the problem is patriarchy, and more broadly, the problem is power and entitlement. Women (and other non-men) who have power over other human beings, in the limited times and places in which that's true, do in fact rape and abuse people in all the same ways as men. Just for example: women in lesbian relationships experience both partner-rape and other forms of IPV at rates that are comparable to women in het relationships.
People who are not men are still full human beings, and heir to all the shitty possibilities inherent in that.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:48 PM on September 25 [48 favorites]
People who are not men are still full human beings, and heir to all the shitty possibilities inherent in that.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:48 PM on September 25 [48 favorites]
(((((Gisèle))))) Have you seen the pictures of the protests in France? Where tf are all those #NotAllMen-dudes and their enablers, who always claim there are only a few bad apples?Why tf are French men not in the streets with them in solidarity? Answer: it’s the misogyny. All men benefit from horrible men.
Traffic on the message forum Dominique Pelicot used to solicit his fellow rapists was ~300,000 per month, multiply that times 10 years to figure out how many men saw Dominique’s ad, and did not report him. Not one man out of hundreds of thousands of online male viewers in a decade ever reported him, and meanwhile no doctor took Gisèle’s concerns seriously.
Does anybody have any links about how this is being received in France?
See France-based journalist Melanie Hamlett’s excellent work on YouTube.
posted by edithkeeler at 6:53 PM on September 25 [12 favorites]
Traffic on the message forum Dominique Pelicot used to solicit his fellow rapists was ~300,000 per month, multiply that times 10 years to figure out how many men saw Dominique’s ad, and did not report him. Not one man out of hundreds of thousands of online male viewers in a decade ever reported him, and meanwhile no doctor took Gisèle’s concerns seriously.
Does anybody have any links about how this is being received in France?
See France-based journalist Melanie Hamlett’s excellent work on YouTube.
posted by edithkeeler at 6:53 PM on September 25 [12 favorites]
Oh yeah, please note that i am in no way downplaying misogyny as an animating force in the lives of men! I am frequently heard to quote Susan Brownmiller that "rape is a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."
I'm just super uninterested in allowing weird bioessentialism to go unchecked, because the actual problem is patriarchy.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:56 PM on September 25 [18 favorites]
I'm just super uninterested in allowing weird bioessentialism to go unchecked, because the actual problem is patriarchy.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:56 PM on September 25 [18 favorites]
Seconding adrienneleigh above. I'm aware that this subject is unimaginably horrifying, but can we be very careful with the essentialism, or talk of "testosterone" as the problem?
The barest bit of research into Rachel Hewitt shows she's TERF-adjacent at the very least. See this, or this. When talking about these nightmarish crimes, lets try to avoid bad generalizations.
posted by OmniPrincess at 7:10 PM on September 25 [13 favorites]
The barest bit of research into Rachel Hewitt shows she's TERF-adjacent at the very least. See this, or this. When talking about these nightmarish crimes, lets try to avoid bad generalizations.
posted by OmniPrincess at 7:10 PM on September 25 [13 favorites]
Also: “There were no children involved, no women were killed, the family will have a hard time but they can rebuild. After all, nobody died,” [Louis Bonnet, the mayor of Mazan, the town where the rapes took place] told the broadcaster.
...what the actual fuck?
posted by cnidaria at 8:32 PM on September 25 [8 favorites]
...what the actual fuck?
posted by cnidaria at 8:32 PM on September 25 [8 favorites]
I’m ashamed I couldn’t get through a single link and am just reading the comments. This speaks poorly of me, but I personally, viscerally recognize the shock and horror of realizing that an enormous number of people who communicate that they care about you do not also quite view you as equally human, and a subset view you as prey. I am male, but that has been my experience existing as neurospicy.
I’m kinda shaking with feelings here and don’t want to load up so much I can’t turn that into action. I don’t really have much I’m able to contribute besides my depleted mind but I don’t know how else I can honor this in this moment.
it's well past time to SCIENCE this shit
Fuck yeah this is an extraordinarily reasonable request! I wish I could help, but I am no scientist. I am barely an engineer, I just play one on TV, but if I disabled my ethical subroutines and was not allowed to phone a friend… I would be highly tempted to model gender dynamics as a systems design problem. Look at men as they exist and interact in a system with women by observing the resultant society as a whole. Early study definitions are design choices and can have enormous, but subtle impacts on findings, so I try to start as loose as possible before zooming in. I would *really* appreciate help with these choices, but falling rather madly for a behavioral scientist has made that part of my worldview, so I would start with the question of “What behaviors and why?,” with as light manual grouping around "who" as possible.
To be 100% clear, I am absolutely trying to answer the question of why the overwhelming number of sex criming is done by men. That is the atrocity I am focused on. I am seeking the most accurate picture of what fuck is wrong with men, but I deeply suspect the true answer is something the lines of “all this shit, completely on their own, but also some of this as they exist in a system dealing with women dealing with their shit, and so on.” Even just choosing categories like “gender” or which groups to model will hugely scope the findings, which is good or bad depending on how the results are used. Manually defining groups makes major assumptions, but those assumptions have semantic meaning so they’re often very valuable and actionable. Just, oh boy, edge cases are people too!
But, again, I am a ponce and not a scientist. Full on confession: I am going in fully biased, and going through the motions of removing bias, and saying that removing preconceptions is fundamental to novel insight, but I fully expect my biases to be vindicated. However, I operate with extremely strong options, lightly held, and continuously find myself surprised. Present even a slightly better explanation and I’ll immediate switch teams to die on that hill.
With that rough poncy thought experiment model selected and instantiated across a bunch of cloud services, I would gather whatever horrible data I could as quickly as possible and try to start massaging some insights out of it. I have no budget to run real studies, but I do have a command line and entire industries cannot stop me from scraping, so neener neener the panopticon goes both ways. I’d basically just have text interactions to work with, (would scrape images and everything else for later multimodal work) but sentiment analysis is rather mature, and I’m sure I could cobble together some extremely gross workable analogue for behaviors using tagged sequences of sentiments. Then start categorizing those into sequences-of-sequences for branching conversations, paying particular attention to inflection points in logic traces in case that revealed any low-hanging-fruit for this-leads-to-that insights.
Then I’d start brute forcing assumptions and datasets through the simplest tools I can understand which still give me enough insight into what the fuck is going on that I can’t see. Specifically, my first port of call would be structural equation modeling. It’s old stuff but quite comprehensible and actionable; there are nice tools there that let you get a head start by defining some parts of models manually but recognizing them as assumptions and then using tools to identify latent variables and connections or other relations you missed. The mind is rapidly becoming knowable, and SEM has been a scary big step in that direction. It’s not everything, but it is absolutely part of the black magic behind algorithmic influence and persuasion. I’ve been told it’s dangerous and irresponsible to talk about this stuff, but the assholes already know, fuck omerta, fuck separation, it’s dangerous not to talk. We are kept weak by our division and distrust, but it is not ours, it too has been engineered. Fuck that.
At this point, the model is pretty good at helping us see what is going on – it’s not super great for specifically saying why. But you would have enough to start doing simulations, and then eventually tests in the field. However, at this point, I would start trying to identify clustering of behavior sequences I could call interactions, and then start modeling them as best as I could under a game theoretic framework. This is just a fancy way of saying “each individual is different, with different incentives and different costs. Understand them as deeply and as empathetically as you can to identify these as numbers and then iterate on a model until it matches reality enough for your scope” I find this structure really, really useful for experimenting with potential changes — if we change the costs or incentives for this part of the system, how might other agents react?
This is still all quite old school, but again, the simpler stuff is still grokkable by my woefully human mind.
In parallel, I would approach the problem from the opposite direction using a more modern ML approach – zero assumptions, unstructured learning from an enormous data lake half filled with sewage, and getting extremely specific results in the form of indecipherable tensor gibberish that only other programs can tell you they’re interpreting. I would be under no illusions that any of this would give a real insight, but I would operate under the sincere hope that following the process with eyes wide open might help glean insight that an actual scientist could run with. One insane stretch goal would be that the formal and learned models would eventually converge in the middle like the chunnel, and I would have a cool computer where I could test crazy theories using natural language.
I have two tried and true related problem-solving techniques when I have access to system design variables:
1. Take a concept and pull it out through it asshole, get stuff like calculus
2. Find a slider that looks important and push it all way forward, and then all the way backward.
For example, I have a pet theory that nearly all biological and social differences among humans may be overwhelmed by the effect of sexual dimorphism, the power dynamics that would result from that random genetic outcome, and how incentives and drives might intersect with sexual violence as cultures were forming in the 290,000 odd year period when we had minds just as human as we do now but few artifacts of culture and who knows how long we were getting and by and learning without standard spoken language, as well as the last 10,000 years when we’ve been working with more stone and electricity and stuff.
With such a perfect simulator in hand, let’s test this theory with approach #2. We have done one 300,000 year run with the distribution of male bodies being slightly larger on average. Let’s start a new run, everything stays the same, but we change one variable, sexual dimorphism. Sticking to precedent in the interest of sanity, anglerfish have been reproducing for 30x longer than humans, and in some species the males are 1/40 the size of the females. Modern American adult females weigh 170.8 lbs on average, so the average dude would mature to about 4.3 lbs. Everyone starts naked in the woods, no language or knowledge beyond their own experience. At the end of the subjective 300,000 year experiment, any individual agent can press a button to stop. But the button is on a counter or a high shelf.
Yes for some reason a few of my friends have been reading children of time lately why do you ask.
Again, please don’t do any of this, this is very a very bad no good partial reckless way to understand things. I wanted to share a much of an honest insight as I can into the slice of the silicon valley engineering-think that I have known, and just one bullshit path out of many one could take. It is bullshit! Absolute bullshit! This is the bullshit, it falls apart if you pick at it so pick pick pick!
But please recognize that it has been effective enough to out-compete our collective interests so far. It is only capable of doing so within our current system, but this is extremely fast, cheap bullshit, and if you spray and pray you can find you can a target before anyone else just by inflicting collateral damage everywhere.
I don’t know if this is at all helpful, I absolutely do not want to steer this discussion away from the actual fucking horror to center silicon valley techbro thinking – 99.9% of the time I can contribute the most by shutting up and listening intently. But MiraK that is a damn good question. I *feel* your rage. Fuck this shit. I so wish I could answer it! I can’t! But I can’t do nothing, so uh, here’s something. Sorry for midnight outrage brain. I hope my science adjacent franken-approach which I don't have the time, funds, or personnel to actually do right now might help someone else or provide a lens to talk about more direct routes to understanding and change (in concert with better approaches!).
posted by 1024 at 12:01 AM on September 26
I’m kinda shaking with feelings here and don’t want to load up so much I can’t turn that into action. I don’t really have much I’m able to contribute besides my depleted mind but I don’t know how else I can honor this in this moment.
it's well past time to SCIENCE this shit
Fuck yeah this is an extraordinarily reasonable request! I wish I could help, but I am no scientist. I am barely an engineer, I just play one on TV, but if I disabled my ethical subroutines and was not allowed to phone a friend… I would be highly tempted to model gender dynamics as a systems design problem. Look at men as they exist and interact in a system with women by observing the resultant society as a whole. Early study definitions are design choices and can have enormous, but subtle impacts on findings, so I try to start as loose as possible before zooming in. I would *really* appreciate help with these choices, but falling rather madly for a behavioral scientist has made that part of my worldview, so I would start with the question of “What behaviors and why?,” with as light manual grouping around "who" as possible.
To be 100% clear, I am absolutely trying to answer the question of why the overwhelming number of sex criming is done by men. That is the atrocity I am focused on. I am seeking the most accurate picture of what fuck is wrong with men, but I deeply suspect the true answer is something the lines of “all this shit, completely on their own, but also some of this as they exist in a system dealing with women dealing with their shit, and so on.” Even just choosing categories like “gender” or which groups to model will hugely scope the findings, which is good or bad depending on how the results are used. Manually defining groups makes major assumptions, but those assumptions have semantic meaning so they’re often very valuable and actionable. Just, oh boy, edge cases are people too!
But, again, I am a ponce and not a scientist. Full on confession: I am going in fully biased, and going through the motions of removing bias, and saying that removing preconceptions is fundamental to novel insight, but I fully expect my biases to be vindicated. However, I operate with extremely strong options, lightly held, and continuously find myself surprised. Present even a slightly better explanation and I’ll immediate switch teams to die on that hill.
With that rough poncy thought experiment model selected and instantiated across a bunch of cloud services, I would gather whatever horrible data I could as quickly as possible and try to start massaging some insights out of it. I have no budget to run real studies, but I do have a command line and entire industries cannot stop me from scraping, so neener neener the panopticon goes both ways. I’d basically just have text interactions to work with, (would scrape images and everything else for later multimodal work) but sentiment analysis is rather mature, and I’m sure I could cobble together some extremely gross workable analogue for behaviors using tagged sequences of sentiments. Then start categorizing those into sequences-of-sequences for branching conversations, paying particular attention to inflection points in logic traces in case that revealed any low-hanging-fruit for this-leads-to-that insights.
Then I’d start brute forcing assumptions and datasets through the simplest tools I can understand which still give me enough insight into what the fuck is going on that I can’t see. Specifically, my first port of call would be structural equation modeling. It’s old stuff but quite comprehensible and actionable; there are nice tools there that let you get a head start by defining some parts of models manually but recognizing them as assumptions and then using tools to identify latent variables and connections or other relations you missed. The mind is rapidly becoming knowable, and SEM has been a scary big step in that direction. It’s not everything, but it is absolutely part of the black magic behind algorithmic influence and persuasion. I’ve been told it’s dangerous and irresponsible to talk about this stuff, but the assholes already know, fuck omerta, fuck separation, it’s dangerous not to talk. We are kept weak by our division and distrust, but it is not ours, it too has been engineered. Fuck that.
At this point, the model is pretty good at helping us see what is going on – it’s not super great for specifically saying why. But you would have enough to start doing simulations, and then eventually tests in the field. However, at this point, I would start trying to identify clustering of behavior sequences I could call interactions, and then start modeling them as best as I could under a game theoretic framework. This is just a fancy way of saying “each individual is different, with different incentives and different costs. Understand them as deeply and as empathetically as you can to identify these as numbers and then iterate on a model until it matches reality enough for your scope” I find this structure really, really useful for experimenting with potential changes — if we change the costs or incentives for this part of the system, how might other agents react?
This is still all quite old school, but again, the simpler stuff is still grokkable by my woefully human mind.
In parallel, I would approach the problem from the opposite direction using a more modern ML approach – zero assumptions, unstructured learning from an enormous data lake half filled with sewage, and getting extremely specific results in the form of indecipherable tensor gibberish that only other programs can tell you they’re interpreting. I would be under no illusions that any of this would give a real insight, but I would operate under the sincere hope that following the process with eyes wide open might help glean insight that an actual scientist could run with. One insane stretch goal would be that the formal and learned models would eventually converge in the middle like the chunnel, and I would have a cool computer where I could test crazy theories using natural language.
I have two tried and true related problem-solving techniques when I have access to system design variables:
1. Take a concept and pull it out through it asshole, get stuff like calculus
2. Find a slider that looks important and push it all way forward, and then all the way backward.
For example, I have a pet theory that nearly all biological and social differences among humans may be overwhelmed by the effect of sexual dimorphism, the power dynamics that would result from that random genetic outcome, and how incentives and drives might intersect with sexual violence as cultures were forming in the 290,000 odd year period when we had minds just as human as we do now but few artifacts of culture and who knows how long we were getting and by and learning without standard spoken language, as well as the last 10,000 years when we’ve been working with more stone and electricity and stuff.
With such a perfect simulator in hand, let’s test this theory with approach #2. We have done one 300,000 year run with the distribution of male bodies being slightly larger on average. Let’s start a new run, everything stays the same, but we change one variable, sexual dimorphism. Sticking to precedent in the interest of sanity, anglerfish have been reproducing for 30x longer than humans, and in some species the males are 1/40 the size of the females. Modern American adult females weigh 170.8 lbs on average, so the average dude would mature to about 4.3 lbs. Everyone starts naked in the woods, no language or knowledge beyond their own experience. At the end of the subjective 300,000 year experiment, any individual agent can press a button to stop. But the button is on a counter or a high shelf.
Yes for some reason a few of my friends have been reading children of time lately why do you ask.
Again, please don’t do any of this, this is very a very bad no good partial reckless way to understand things. I wanted to share a much of an honest insight as I can into the slice of the silicon valley engineering-think that I have known, and just one bullshit path out of many one could take. It is bullshit! Absolute bullshit! This is the bullshit, it falls apart if you pick at it so pick pick pick!
But please recognize that it has been effective enough to out-compete our collective interests so far. It is only capable of doing so within our current system, but this is extremely fast, cheap bullshit, and if you spray and pray you can find you can a target before anyone else just by inflicting collateral damage everywhere.
I don’t know if this is at all helpful, I absolutely do not want to steer this discussion away from the actual fucking horror to center silicon valley techbro thinking – 99.9% of the time I can contribute the most by shutting up and listening intently. But MiraK that is a damn good question. I *feel* your rage. Fuck this shit. I so wish I could answer it! I can’t! But I can’t do nothing, so uh, here’s something. Sorry for midnight outrage brain. I hope my science adjacent franken-approach which I don't have the time, funds, or personnel to actually do right now might help someone else or provide a lens to talk about more direct routes to understanding and change (in concert with better approaches!).
posted by 1024 at 12:01 AM on September 26
TRADE OFFER
I receive:
$5 billion dollars to burn through datacenters
you receive:
a printout at the end saying "patriarchy exists"
It's the only way to be sure.
posted by 1024 at 12:48 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
I receive:
$5 billion dollars to burn through datacenters
you receive:
a printout at the end saying "patriarchy exists"
It's the only way to be sure.
posted by 1024 at 12:48 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
Women (and other non-men) who have power over other human beings, in the limited times and places in which that's true, do in fact rape and abuse people in all the same ways as men.
Just like “all the same ways” Dominique Pelicot and his fellow rapists did to Gisèle?? False.
Just for example: women in lesbian relationships experience both partner-rape and other forms of IPV at rates that are comparable to women in het relationships.
I get the point being made here (gender essentialism is awful and needs calling out, yes) but can we please not do the homophobia towards lesbians?
posted by edithkeeler at 2:19 AM on September 26 [10 favorites]
Just like “all the same ways” Dominique Pelicot and his fellow rapists did to Gisèle?? False.
Just for example: women in lesbian relationships experience both partner-rape and other forms of IPV at rates that are comparable to women in het relationships.
I get the point being made here (gender essentialism is awful and needs calling out, yes) but can we please not do the homophobia towards lesbians?
posted by edithkeeler at 2:19 AM on September 26 [10 favorites]
The global misogyny revealed in headlines in recent weeks has been overwhelming to say the least. R.I.P. Dr. Moumita Debnath of India. R.I.P. Ugandan Olympian Rebecca Cheptegei.
“The truth is, it is no longer enough to choose the bear. We are going to have to be the bear.”
—LadySpeech
posted by edithkeeler at 2:57 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
“The truth is, it is no longer enough to choose the bear. We are going to have to be the bear.”
—LadySpeech
posted by edithkeeler at 2:57 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
Pelicot drew from the website for a real-world club of like-minded individuals.
‘Disciple’ of accused rapist drugged and raped his own wife: Jean-Pierre, 63, a former lorry driver for an agricultural cooperative, is alleged to had contact with Pelicot in a chatroom and allegedly used the same technique to drug his own wife with sedatives in order to rape her, with Pelicot’s involvement. Pelicot is alleged to have provided sedatives to drug the man’s wife and travelled to rape her himself. Twelve rapes of Jean-Pierre’s wife are alleged to have taken place between 2015 and 2020. Jean-Pierre has told the court that he has admitted the charges. Jean-Pierre’s wife is not a civil party to the case as she “has five children and wanted to protect them”, [lead investigator Stéphan] Gal told the court, saying it was “staggering” given the images that she was shown by police of what had happened to her.
"I too may have been assaulted, says ex-partner of Dominique Pelicot co-defendant". Emilie O is the former partner of Hugues M, one of dozens of men accused of raping Gisèle Pelicot while she was drugged into unconsciousness by her now former husband, Dominique Pelicot. She told the court that one night in 2019 she had woken up to find her partner attempting to assault her. She launched a police complaint, but it was dismissed for “lack of material evidence”. She also told the court she had experienced “dizziness” between September 2019 and March 2020, but investigators did not detect any substances that might have affected her at the time.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:05 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
‘Disciple’ of accused rapist drugged and raped his own wife: Jean-Pierre, 63, a former lorry driver for an agricultural cooperative, is alleged to had contact with Pelicot in a chatroom and allegedly used the same technique to drug his own wife with sedatives in order to rape her, with Pelicot’s involvement. Pelicot is alleged to have provided sedatives to drug the man’s wife and travelled to rape her himself. Twelve rapes of Jean-Pierre’s wife are alleged to have taken place between 2015 and 2020. Jean-Pierre has told the court that he has admitted the charges. Jean-Pierre’s wife is not a civil party to the case as she “has five children and wanted to protect them”, [lead investigator Stéphan] Gal told the court, saying it was “staggering” given the images that she was shown by police of what had happened to her.
"I too may have been assaulted, says ex-partner of Dominique Pelicot co-defendant". Emilie O is the former partner of Hugues M, one of dozens of men accused of raping Gisèle Pelicot while she was drugged into unconsciousness by her now former husband, Dominique Pelicot. She told the court that one night in 2019 she had woken up to find her partner attempting to assault her. She launched a police complaint, but it was dismissed for “lack of material evidence”. She also told the court she had experienced “dizziness” between September 2019 and March 2020, but investigators did not detect any substances that might have affected her at the time.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:05 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
Most of the men who do terrible things are loved by the people in their lives 💯
“Gisèle Pelicot Is a Hero” by Tracy Schorn (aka Chump Lady)
posted by edithkeeler at 3:12 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
“Gisèle Pelicot Is a Hero” by Tracy Schorn (aka Chump Lady)
posted by edithkeeler at 3:12 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
1024, what if we began by you not using the term "ponce"? Repeatedly. And, jfc, dude, not writing so much impotent apologia?
Seriously, was that the output of some ironic bot?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:22 AM on September 26 [6 favorites]
Seriously, was that the output of some ironic bot?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:22 AM on September 26 [6 favorites]
In the Pelicot trial, "Eighteen of the 51 accused are in custody [...] while 32 other defendants are attending the trial as free men. The last one, still at large, will be judged in absentia." These defendants, aged between 26 and 73 at the time of their arrest, were identified from Pelicot's footage; police "were unable to identify and trace more than 30 other men who were recorded." [Pelicot meticulously documented the attacks, labeling each by name and date and tucking them into a master folder titled “Abuse.” The couple retired to Mazan in 2013. I think these videos, spanning about 2010 to 2020, are a part of a larger collection.] Out of the dozens who accepted Pelicot's invitation, only three left the house when they realized that Gisèle was unconscious. Others made multiple visits to their home.
BBC: At least two of the defendants stated they did not feel they had raped Gisèle because she had been “offered” to them by her own husband, and one man said he did not consider his actions rape because "for me, rape is when you grab someone off the street".
"I don't have the heart of a rapist," he added.
What's more, Dominique Pelicot is also accused of the rape and murder of a 23-year-old estate agent in Paris in 1991. Sophie Narme was drugged, raped and stabbed in the chest. Another estate agent, 19, was attacked in similar circumstances but escaped after fighting back. Police have said DNA extracted from blood at the scene matched his profile.
"“It is not for myself that I am testifying, but for all the women who suffer chemical submission,” [Gisèle] said, using the term that under French law refers to drugging a victim and is considered an aggravating circumstance, with a maximum of 20 years in prison.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:37 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
BBC: At least two of the defendants stated they did not feel they had raped Gisèle because she had been “offered” to them by her own husband, and one man said he did not consider his actions rape because "for me, rape is when you grab someone off the street".
"I don't have the heart of a rapist," he added.
What's more, Dominique Pelicot is also accused of the rape and murder of a 23-year-old estate agent in Paris in 1991. Sophie Narme was drugged, raped and stabbed in the chest. Another estate agent, 19, was attacked in similar circumstances but escaped after fighting back. Police have said DNA extracted from blood at the scene matched his profile.
"“It is not for myself that I am testifying, but for all the women who suffer chemical submission,” [Gisèle] said, using the term that under French law refers to drugging a victim and is considered an aggravating circumstance, with a maximum of 20 years in prison.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:37 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
Have been reading a lot about this in the last few weeks, as others have mentioned it's been extensively covered in UK media, including some excellent pieces from commentators based in France.
One thing I wanted to mention was about how Dominque Pelicot was discovered. He was caught upskirting in a supermarket by a security guard. The security guard called the police and the victim pressed charges. The resulting computer searches unravelled the horrific crimes against Gisele Pelicot.
In my view, both the security guard and the woman are everyday heroes and I hope they feel that their actions were worthwhile.
posted by plonkee at 3:41 AM on September 26 [32 favorites]
One thing I wanted to mention was about how Dominque Pelicot was discovered. He was caught upskirting in a supermarket by a security guard. The security guard called the police and the victim pressed charges. The resulting computer searches unravelled the horrific crimes against Gisele Pelicot.
In my view, both the security guard and the woman are everyday heroes and I hope they feel that their actions were worthwhile.
posted by plonkee at 3:41 AM on September 26 [32 favorites]
1024, what if we began by you not using the term "ponce"? Repeatedly.
I am sorry for the word choice! I was literally trying to choose something not loaded at time I wrote that, I was literally seething with rage and trying to operationalize it in any way instead of just let it fizzle again.
But seriously,
And, jfc, dude, not writing so much impotent apologia?
Seriously, was that the output of some ironic bot?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:22 AM on September 26 [1 favorite +]
I am straight up done doing *nothing* when this stuff comes up. Someone asked something reasonable. I did not have the answer, and there was decent chance someone like you might respond, but also a chance I might have more to contribute than nothing. I have seen no evidence that this policing and purity testing improves outcomes. I have been sitting on the sidelines literally for years because I haven't wanted to hurt people after reading direct attacks like this, when someone like you went ad-hominem. Meanwhile the classmates I studied public policy design and game theory with are literally in the leadership of project 2025.
I listened to people like you a lot about 15 years ago, who told me I wasn't fighting right, or part of the fight, so I shouldn't fight at all. I literally model collective action failures. Every year since I sat down has been a slow motion horror. We are past precautionary time, it is unreasonable to continue the same behaviors and expect different results. Every time I find myself clicking away from a discussion like this or thinking "I can't do anything" I've decided to do something, instead. Something productive. Something tiny. Literally anything except nothing. That was getting nowhere.
And now it's a couple things at a time. Later, it might be more. The stack I described is a small part bullshit and very large part ripped from the actual infrastructure of an active persuasion network working with some *very* new stuff and some old CA consultants. It is bullshit, but it is literally working to change behaviors at scale, at a lower price point than human canvassers. Science and engineering move forward together, often through exchange of instruments and ideas, and engineering has developed some proximate tools which could actually maybe come close to helping the "it's well past time to SCIENCE this shit" request.
And, for context, that request was amidst quite a bit of what one could read as misandrist comments. Which are just an order of magnitude less important than the rage that drove them. I care about the rage behind those words more, and the need to act more. I knew damn well I was not the perfect or even right person to answer that call, and that many of the accusations were at me. But every damn fight I have ever been in has started with "what the fuck is no one else doing anything fuck I guess me"
I do not have the resources to personally run the poorly thought out stack I wrote. But an hour or two after writing that and processing that, I realized that there were a lot of assumptions baked in from it coming from a timely, reactive system, actionable data was likely already available in common crawl. Furthermore, I realized I am in the midst of transitioning a team of ML engineers off of all Google infrastructure, and they needed a relatively well-defined exploratory project to evaluate the new Nvidia H100 Tensor Core GPUs we're moving to. I sent a proposal out an hour ago, interested to see what comes back. At the least it will be a conversation that might continue. But if we end up throwing even a few hours of 8x H100s at this, I mean, is there any chance that's more than all compute put towards this question in history combined? That doesn't mean it will yield answers. But it's a start.
I apologize for saying ponce, it was literally a sound from childhood that I have not thought of since. I have zero desire to hurt anyone, but I absolutely do need to highlight that I am not the smart one here, the only damn thing I've done differently is tried. I get that I'm the not the guy you want. I get that I'm doing it wrong. But I do not have luxury of inaction. At the very least I have to welcome some of the allies you purge.
I will sit down when you stand up.
posted by 1024 at 7:07 AM on September 26
I am sorry for the word choice! I was literally trying to choose something not loaded at time I wrote that, I was literally seething with rage and trying to operationalize it in any way instead of just let it fizzle again.
But seriously,
And, jfc, dude, not writing so much impotent apologia?
Seriously, was that the output of some ironic bot?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:22 AM on September 26 [1 favorite +]
I am straight up done doing *nothing* when this stuff comes up. Someone asked something reasonable. I did not have the answer, and there was decent chance someone like you might respond, but also a chance I might have more to contribute than nothing. I have seen no evidence that this policing and purity testing improves outcomes. I have been sitting on the sidelines literally for years because I haven't wanted to hurt people after reading direct attacks like this, when someone like you went ad-hominem. Meanwhile the classmates I studied public policy design and game theory with are literally in the leadership of project 2025.
I listened to people like you a lot about 15 years ago, who told me I wasn't fighting right, or part of the fight, so I shouldn't fight at all. I literally model collective action failures. Every year since I sat down has been a slow motion horror. We are past precautionary time, it is unreasonable to continue the same behaviors and expect different results. Every time I find myself clicking away from a discussion like this or thinking "I can't do anything" I've decided to do something, instead. Something productive. Something tiny. Literally anything except nothing. That was getting nowhere.
And now it's a couple things at a time. Later, it might be more. The stack I described is a small part bullshit and very large part ripped from the actual infrastructure of an active persuasion network working with some *very* new stuff and some old CA consultants. It is bullshit, but it is literally working to change behaviors at scale, at a lower price point than human canvassers. Science and engineering move forward together, often through exchange of instruments and ideas, and engineering has developed some proximate tools which could actually maybe come close to helping the "it's well past time to SCIENCE this shit" request.
And, for context, that request was amidst quite a bit of what one could read as misandrist comments. Which are just an order of magnitude less important than the rage that drove them. I care about the rage behind those words more, and the need to act more. I knew damn well I was not the perfect or even right person to answer that call, and that many of the accusations were at me. But every damn fight I have ever been in has started with "what the fuck is no one else doing anything fuck I guess me"
I do not have the resources to personally run the poorly thought out stack I wrote. But an hour or two after writing that and processing that, I realized that there were a lot of assumptions baked in from it coming from a timely, reactive system, actionable data was likely already available in common crawl. Furthermore, I realized I am in the midst of transitioning a team of ML engineers off of all Google infrastructure, and they needed a relatively well-defined exploratory project to evaluate the new Nvidia H100 Tensor Core GPUs we're moving to. I sent a proposal out an hour ago, interested to see what comes back. At the least it will be a conversation that might continue. But if we end up throwing even a few hours of 8x H100s at this, I mean, is there any chance that's more than all compute put towards this question in history combined? That doesn't mean it will yield answers. But it's a start.
I apologize for saying ponce, it was literally a sound from childhood that I have not thought of since. I have zero desire to hurt anyone, but I absolutely do need to highlight that I am not the smart one here, the only damn thing I've done differently is tried. I get that I'm the not the guy you want. I get that I'm doing it wrong. But I do not have luxury of inaction. At the very least I have to welcome some of the allies you purge.
I will sit down when you stand up.
posted by 1024 at 7:07 AM on September 26
Seriously, was that the output of some ironic bot?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:22 AM on September 26 [2 favorites +]
literally dehumanizing
posted by 1024 at 7:13 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:22 AM on September 26 [2 favorites +]
literally dehumanizing
posted by 1024 at 7:13 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
Justice takes many forms. In prison everyone finds out what you are in for very quickly indeed and this helps to determine your position in the hierarchy of respect. I doubt any of these men who are imprisoned will enjoy their time inside. It isn't any consolation and won't right wrongs but it is all we have.
posted by epo at 7:15 AM on September 26
posted by epo at 7:15 AM on September 26
> "The problem is men" reflects a gender essentialism that's really not cool. The problem is not men
Is this gaslighting? I think this is gaslighting.
The problem is absolutely men, not the concept of patriarchy (which all of us are part of, not just men). Women don't drug other women and invite men to gangrape them. That does not happen. It is MEN who are doing these horrific sex crimes. Just men.
It is uncomfortable to say it and uncomfortable to admit it, but the problem is MEN. Possibly the only amendment that statement needs is that the problem is cis men, but since there are credible biological hypotheses for why men are violent and antisocial, that may not be entirely accurate scientifically (as in, it may actually be AMAB people that are the issue).
posted by MiraK at 7:25 AM on September 26 [21 favorites]
Is this gaslighting? I think this is gaslighting.
The problem is absolutely men, not the concept of patriarchy (which all of us are part of, not just men). Women don't drug other women and invite men to gangrape them. That does not happen. It is MEN who are doing these horrific sex crimes. Just men.
It is uncomfortable to say it and uncomfortable to admit it, but the problem is MEN. Possibly the only amendment that statement needs is that the problem is cis men, but since there are credible biological hypotheses for why men are violent and antisocial, that may not be entirely accurate scientifically (as in, it may actually be AMAB people that are the issue).
posted by MiraK at 7:25 AM on September 26 [21 favorites]
I was going to say
this may not be the time and place to offer high level critiques of sexless power and privilege
posted by ginger.beef at 7:31 AM on September 26 [7 favorites]
this may not be the time and place to offer high level critiques of sexless power and privilege
posted by ginger.beef at 7:31 AM on September 26 [7 favorites]
One of the things I have seen mentioned a few times in Francophone coverage but oddly not in English coverage is that Dominique Pelicot, in addition to the horror committed against his wife, additionally maintained on his computer nude photographs of his daughter and daughters in law. To save some time, I’ve translated below a portion of this AFP article that has shown up in a few news sources in Canada and France:
posted by donut_princess at 7:37 AM on September 26 [13 favorites]
That same November 3rd, 2020, the police showed her (Caroline) two photos of a nude woman apparently sleeping. “We could see a close up of the buttocks of this woman sleeping in fetal position. I didn’t recognize her” Explains Caroline Darian.Pelicot denies having ever drugged his daughter or daughter-in-laws and claims not to have taken the pictures. I’m honestly surprised and very confused about why this hasn’t shown up into the English language coverage of the case.
“But madam, you have a mark on your right cheek” the inspector remarked to her.
“I found out that my father photographed me, without my knowledge, nude. Why?” she asks herself, believing from then on that her father had also drugged her, like he had done with her mother with anxiolytics. Her father had distributed the photos on the internet.
And Caroline was not alone, with her mother, to have been a victim of Dominique Pelicot, who is 71 years old today, and who is spending the entire morning bunched up in a corner of the box of the detained accused.
Céline, 48 years old, spouse of David Pelicot, and Aurore P., 37 years old, ex-spouse of Florian Pelicot, were also photographed nude, without their knowledge, by their father-in-law. They previously had maintained overall an integral feeling of having the ideal family, demonstrative and loving, with a helpful father-in-law despite his occasional temper.
“The photos of me pregnant with our twins, nude, […] zoomed in on my intimate parts,” dated from 2011, explained Céline in front of the court. And the others from 2019.
These images also were distributed online “But who has them and where are they now, in 5 years, in 10 years?”
posted by donut_princess at 7:37 AM on September 26 [13 favorites]
I knew about the DIL and daughter photos from someplace in Canadian media (maybe CBC?) and this whole situation makes me want to cry and never stop crying. I can say "I can't believe anyone would be this much of a monster" and yet I can. I can believe that men treat their spouses and female children like property, to do with whatever they wish, and unless they are caught, the abuse goes on and on. I just don't want it to be true.
posted by Kitteh at 7:44 AM on September 26 [8 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:44 AM on September 26 [8 favorites]
It's men. I am a man. It's men.
posted by whatevernot at 7:45 AM on September 26 [18 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 7:45 AM on September 26 [18 favorites]
Is this gaslighting? I think this is gaslighting.
Yes. Misogyny relies on men and their enablers being able to get away with gaslighting, nitpicking, and silencing women, and constantly dismissing and minimizing women’s millions of lived experiences.
I’m grateful for and proud of the brave women who have spoken up in this thread.
posted by edithkeeler at 7:50 AM on September 26 [12 favorites]
Yes. Misogyny relies on men and their enablers being able to get away with gaslighting, nitpicking, and silencing women, and constantly dismissing and minimizing women’s millions of lived experiences.
I’m grateful for and proud of the brave women who have spoken up in this thread.
posted by edithkeeler at 7:50 AM on September 26 [12 favorites]
Might as well accuse me of misandry and be mask off MRA then. After all it's men that my statements are about, not trans people.
Less glib response: please try not to be so knee jerk in your responses to the statements I've made. Bio essentialism is bad in SOME contexts, not all. It's not bio essentialist to say that AFAB people's health issues need to be studied more, because studies are often only conducted on AMAB bodies, for instance. Like. None of my comments here are about trans people, none of them are excluding nor deliberately including trans people, this is about men's violence against women and trans people existing and being valid as the gender they choose to identify as has little to do with that.
posted by MiraK at 8:03 AM on September 26 [19 favorites]
Less glib response: please try not to be so knee jerk in your responses to the statements I've made. Bio essentialism is bad in SOME contexts, not all. It's not bio essentialist to say that AFAB people's health issues need to be studied more, because studies are often only conducted on AMAB bodies, for instance. Like. None of my comments here are about trans people, none of them are excluding nor deliberately including trans people, this is about men's violence against women and trans people existing and being valid as the gender they choose to identify as has little to do with that.
posted by MiraK at 8:03 AM on September 26 [19 favorites]
This is why as a child, I cherished the concept of nunneries as a means of escape for women throughout the centuries. Yes, very aware of the irony running into the arms of an invisible yet all-powerful "man" who is now your "eternal husband" to escape the physical cruelties of literal, physical men, and yet...
I have feared rape my whole life since I was first introduced to the concept at age 5. I would spare any man or woman what Pelicot went through, and especially any child. There is an inherent terror that comes in realizing you are often the smallest, softest target on any given day out in public.
And yet, the only successful attempts have been people I trusted enough to fall asleep around.
I hope Pelicot has access to all the therapy, love, and support she needs to survive this and find some measure of health and security going forward.
My brain keeps getting stuck on the 4 STIs, and how what happened to Pelicot has been a death sentence for victims of similar crimes in the past. Just horrific.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:27 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
I have feared rape my whole life since I was first introduced to the concept at age 5. I would spare any man or woman what Pelicot went through, and especially any child. There is an inherent terror that comes in realizing you are often the smallest, softest target on any given day out in public.
And yet, the only successful attempts have been people I trusted enough to fall asleep around.
I hope Pelicot has access to all the therapy, love, and support she needs to survive this and find some measure of health and security going forward.
My brain keeps getting stuck on the 4 STIs, and how what happened to Pelicot has been a death sentence for victims of similar crimes in the past. Just horrific.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:27 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
"The problem is men" reflects a gender essentialism that's really not cool. The problem is not men
Are there any women among the accused?...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:33 AM on September 26 [13 favorites]
Are there any women among the accused?...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:33 AM on September 26 [13 favorites]
The Patriarchy did not repeatedly rape Gisèle Pelicot.
Dominique Pelicot and nearly a hundred other men repeatedly raped Gisèle Pelicot.
While it's Not All Men, when it comes to violence and especially sexual violence it is (Almost) Always a (Cis) Man.
Transwomen do not tend do this. Transmen do not tend to go on sexual violence sprees once they start T. Nonbinary people do not tend to do these things. Cis women do not tend to do these things. Children do not do these things. Even when any adults in the above categories do get involved, it is most often in service to cis men leading the acts and securing their status within an exploitative power structure (e.g. Ghislaine Maxwell).
"Why is it almost always post-pubescent cisgender heterosexual men committing horrific acts of sexual violence?" is a very valid question in the light of this news and the other recent headlines of women raped and murdered in horrific ways.
What we are seeing right now I believe to be a backlash against women's gains. We saw this during the 70s in the United States and when we look at recent cases in the news it's been accomplished women (eg. Dr. Moumita Debnath, Olympian Rebecca Cheptegei). It also appears that Gisèle Pelicot was very professionally accomplished and the abuse may have started once she retired in 2013 and her husband moved her out of Paris.
Is what we're witnessing a jealous, insecure man's revenge? Why do jealous, insecure women not drug their male partners and rape them? Or drug their female partners and rape them? What Dominique did was extreme but search through Reddit advice threads and marvel in disgust at the amount of women whose cis male partners force their penises inside them while they sleep.
This will continue. The patriarchy may be the permission structure within which these cis men act but their actions are horrifically unique to them.
posted by JaneTheGood at 8:44 AM on September 26 [23 favorites]
Dominique Pelicot and nearly a hundred other men repeatedly raped Gisèle Pelicot.
While it's Not All Men, when it comes to violence and especially sexual violence it is (Almost) Always a (Cis) Man.
Transwomen do not tend do this. Transmen do not tend to go on sexual violence sprees once they start T. Nonbinary people do not tend to do these things. Cis women do not tend to do these things. Children do not do these things. Even when any adults in the above categories do get involved, it is most often in service to cis men leading the acts and securing their status within an exploitative power structure (e.g. Ghislaine Maxwell).
"Why is it almost always post-pubescent cisgender heterosexual men committing horrific acts of sexual violence?" is a very valid question in the light of this news and the other recent headlines of women raped and murdered in horrific ways.
What we are seeing right now I believe to be a backlash against women's gains. We saw this during the 70s in the United States and when we look at recent cases in the news it's been accomplished women (eg. Dr. Moumita Debnath, Olympian Rebecca Cheptegei). It also appears that Gisèle Pelicot was very professionally accomplished and the abuse may have started once she retired in 2013 and her husband moved her out of Paris.
Is what we're witnessing a jealous, insecure man's revenge? Why do jealous, insecure women not drug their male partners and rape them? Or drug their female partners and rape them? What Dominique did was extreme but search through Reddit advice threads and marvel in disgust at the amount of women whose cis male partners force their penises inside them while they sleep.
This will continue. The patriarchy may be the permission structure within which these cis men act but their actions are horrifically unique to them.
posted by JaneTheGood at 8:44 AM on September 26 [23 favorites]
....I mean this with all sincerity...would patriarchy be a thing without men? Like...no, it wouldn't. So if the problem is patriarchy, the problem is men.
posted by cooker girl at 8:48 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 8:48 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
That ^ doesn't make a lot of sense. Patriarchy wouldn't exist without women either.
1. because patriarchy is about creating an overclass and an underclass, and it would cease to exist if the underclass vanished... and
2. because women uphold and promote patriarchy alongside men, so it would collapse if fully half of its footsoldiers magically ceased to participate
We are connected, this problem can't be solved with exclusion.
posted by MiraK at 9:00 AM on September 26
1. because patriarchy is about creating an overclass and an underclass, and it would cease to exist if the underclass vanished... and
2. because women uphold and promote patriarchy alongside men, so it would collapse if fully half of its footsoldiers magically ceased to participate
We are connected, this problem can't be solved with exclusion.
posted by MiraK at 9:00 AM on September 26
I hadn't heard about this and it's all so fucking horrifying...the monstrous scheming of the husband, the huge numbers of men that are eager to do such a horrific thing and even more that knew and didn't report it, the fact that the drugging adds a whole other level of violation and trauma - so many years of essentially gaslighting - while simultaneously making some people view it as less "serious", the fact that it was only ever caught after many years through basically a fluke, and above all, who knows how many similar crimes are going on right now that just haven't been both thoroughly documented and orchestrated by someone careless enough to get caught for another form of sexual assault that would lead to investigation. There are so many layers of awful.
I hope every single one of those men is sent to prison and publicly known as rapists for the rest of their lives, and that it opens the eyes for at least some of the men who hear about it instead of reflexively assuming it's "a few bad apples" (or worse, that even those few caught ones are innocent for some convoluted nonsensical reason). It won't happen, of course. I don't know how to fix men, especially when it seems like most people - particularly, but not exclusively, men - won't accept that there's a systemic problem in the first place.
posted by randomnity at 9:10 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
I hope every single one of those men is sent to prison and publicly known as rapists for the rest of their lives, and that it opens the eyes for at least some of the men who hear about it instead of reflexively assuming it's "a few bad apples" (or worse, that even those few caught ones are innocent for some convoluted nonsensical reason). It won't happen, of course. I don't know how to fix men, especially when it seems like most people - particularly, but not exclusively, men - won't accept that there's a systemic problem in the first place.
posted by randomnity at 9:10 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
Whatever, I'll just say I sign on to what JanetheBrown wrote and remind all y'all that zero women have been implicated in this case so maybe, just maybe, in this one specific instance, the problem is cis men.
posted by cooker girl at 9:18 AM on September 26 [10 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 9:18 AM on September 26 [10 favorites]
it may actually be AMAB people that are the issueCan we not do this kind of transphobic shit here?
I'm a woman who was assigned "male" at birth against my will. Am I really the problem?
posted by june_dodecahedron at 9:56 AM on September 26 [26 favorites]
It just seems like the problem is so obviously "men" that it's hard to take any other suggestion seriously. It feels pretty useful to at least posit the idea that the "male lizard hind brain" has a fucked up legacy of sexual violence that extends back deep into evolutionary history, and to conclude that this biological fact presents a huge problem for modern human society. There is a lot of science that could be done on this, but to some degree it requires acknowledging the problem to begin with.
The good news is that because you can say "not all men", that implies that socialization does seem to work. So we can address this problem through how we structure our society, and targeting the patriarchy for change is the right approach to doing that I think, because the patriarchy is the primary enabler and socializes all people poorly. But the problem itself seems to start with "men" in some key sense.
posted by grog at 10:04 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
The good news is that because you can say "not all men", that implies that socialization does seem to work. So we can address this problem through how we structure our society, and targeting the patriarchy for change is the right approach to doing that I think, because the patriarchy is the primary enabler and socializes all people poorly. But the problem itself seems to start with "men" in some key sense.
posted by grog at 10:04 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
MiraK, the thing is that you did, after linking to something about violence in cis men, specifically add on that maybe trans women are like cis men for violence. That addition is speculation, and what's the point of adding it?
Particularly when we know that '''trans women as predators to protect real women from''' is a main bigot taking point.
the problem is MEN. Possibly the only amendment that statement needs is that the problem is cis men, but since there are credible biological hypotheses for why men are violent and antisocial, that may not be entirely accurate scientifically (as in, it may actually be AMAB people that are the issue).
posted by away for regrooving at 10:11 AM on September 26 [18 favorites]
Particularly when we know that '''trans women as predators to protect real women from''' is a main bigot taking point.
the problem is MEN. Possibly the only amendment that statement needs is that the problem is cis men, but since there are credible biological hypotheses for why men are violent and antisocial, that may not be entirely accurate scientifically (as in, it may actually be AMAB people that are the issue).
posted by away for regrooving at 10:11 AM on September 26 [18 favorites]
Justice takes many forms. In prison everyone finds out what you are in for very quickly indeed and this helps to determine your position in the hierarchy of respect.
You do not gotta hand it to normalized prison rape, even as revenge, please.
posted by away for regrooving at 10:17 AM on September 26 [29 favorites]
You do not gotta hand it to normalized prison rape, even as revenge, please.
posted by away for regrooving at 10:17 AM on September 26 [29 favorites]
Ah ok I do see that. Point taken, I apologize for that implication. You're right that is horrible to even hint by accident that trans women are dangerous to cis women. I'm sorry. I'm reaching for a certain type of both-and thinking which was expressed in a harmful way so I'll sit in a corner until I know what I'm saying.
posted by MiraK at 10:41 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 10:41 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
Lesbians and Transfolk are absolutely not the problem; neither are Women as a class responsible for these men’s behavior. It’s always helpful to reflect on where these specific biases are coming from, how you were groomed from a young age into harboring them, and crucially ::WHO BENEFITS from scapegoating these particular marginalized groups::? Peace.
posted by edithkeeler at 11:26 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
posted by edithkeeler at 11:26 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
Sexual Victimization by Women Is More Common Than Previously Known
These events are horrific, and Pèlicot’s immense bravery in demanding an open trial is an incredible act of advocacy. There is so much to process here I’m not sure I have further words at this time.
posted by brook horse at 11:35 AM on September 26 [23 favorites]
For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators.It does not help women to insist that “men are the problem.” Men are part of the problem. They are not all of it by a long shot, and it does a disservice to the many victims of rape and abuse from women to claim that this is a problem with men or AMAB people (thank you for the people who responded to the transphobia implicit in that statement). Let’s think of ways to process and combat these horrors that don’t further marginalize the victims of female-perpetrated sexual assault, as they are already invisible and often derided regardless of their gender.
…
Among those who were raped or sexually assaulted by a woman, 58 percent of male victims and 41 percent of female victims reported that the incident involved a violent attack, meaning the female perpetrator hit, knocked down or otherwise attacked the victim, many of whom reported injuries.
…
And, because we had previously shown that nearly one million incidents of sexual victimization happen in our nation’s prisons and jails each year, we knew that no analysis of sexual victimization in the U.S. would be complete without a look at sexual abuse happening behind bars. We found that, contrary to assumptions, the biggest threat to women serving time does not come from male corrections staff. Instead, female victims are more than three times as likely to experience sexual abuse by other women inmates than by male staff.
Also surprisingly, women inmates are more likely to be abused by other inmates than are male inmates, disrupting the long held view that sexual violence in prison is mainly about men assaulting men. In juvenile corrections facilities, female staff are also a much more significant threat than male staff; more than nine in ten juveniles who reported staff sexual victimization were abused by a woman.
…
In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.
For example, the common one-dimensional portrayal of women as harmless victims reinforces outdated gender stereotypes. This keeps us from seeing women as complex human beings, able to wield power, even in misguided or violent ways. And, the assumption that men are always perpetrators and never victims reinforces unhealthy ideas about men and their supposed invincibility. These hyper-masculine ideals can reinforce aggressive male attitudes and, at the same time, callously stereotype male victims of sexual abuse as “failed men.”
Other gender stereotypes prevent effective responses, such as the trope that men are sexually insatiable. Aware of the popular misconception that, for men, all sex is welcome, male victims often feel too embarrassed to report sexual victimization. If they do report it, they are frequently met with a response that assumes no real harm was done.
Women abused by other women are also an overlooked group; these victims discover that most services are designed for women victimized by men.
These events are horrific, and Pèlicot’s immense bravery in demanding an open trial is an incredible act of advocacy. There is so much to process here I’m not sure I have further words at this time.
posted by brook horse at 11:35 AM on September 26 [23 favorites]
OH for fuck's sake. I AM A CIS WOMAN (at least for all practical purposes). I am bisexual (which, btw, statistically puts me at higher risk for sexual violence and IPV than cis monosexuals, either het or lesbian). I am a feminist.
I am not "gaslighting" anyone, nor "scapegoating" anyone. I am saying that there is nothing intrinsically evil about men, who are in fact the same species as women, and i'm sick of people making weird gender-essentialist statements because those statements are antifeminist. Benevolent sexism is still sexism!
The following things are all true:
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:35 AM on September 26 [52 favorites]
I am not "gaslighting" anyone, nor "scapegoating" anyone. I am saying that there is nothing intrinsically evil about men, who are in fact the same species as women, and i'm sick of people making weird gender-essentialist statements because those statements are antifeminist. Benevolent sexism is still sexism!
The following things are all true:
- Men commit the VAST MAJORITY of sexual and physical violence.
- They do so, not because there is something fundamentally different about men, but BECAUSE THEY CAN -- because the entirety of society is set up to give them a permission structure for that.
- Rape and IPV are technologies of domination. (Again, Brownmiller: "rape is a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.")
- In situations where women are in positions of power over other women, or over men, they do in fact both commit and facilitate rape and IPV. This is comparatively very rare!
- It's not rare because women are better people, but because structural forces mitigate against it!
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:35 AM on September 26 [52 favorites]
On preview: what brook horse said.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:37 AM on September 26
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:37 AM on September 26
cis people learning the terms amab/afab (which originate from the intersex community before being adapted to the trans community) was a mistake
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:49 AM on September 26 [25 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:49 AM on September 26 [25 favorites]
Possibly the only amendment that statement needs is that the problem is cis men, but since there are credible biological hypotheses
While no one is saying IPV doesn’t exist in the trans and queer community, *this kind of shit* doesn’t. There isn’t a whole host of trans men who get T and go wild with malicious, psychotic harm. This kind of shit is the kind of shit you get only through being born a cis man and being so certain that your gender gives you the divine right of kings ability to do whatever the fuck you want that you are willing to ignore the humanity of others.
posted by corb at 11:52 AM on September 26 [14 favorites]
While no one is saying IPV doesn’t exist in the trans and queer community, *this kind of shit* doesn’t. There isn’t a whole host of trans men who get T and go wild with malicious, psychotic harm. This kind of shit is the kind of shit you get only through being born a cis man and being so certain that your gender gives you the divine right of kings ability to do whatever the fuck you want that you are willing to ignore the humanity of others.
posted by corb at 11:52 AM on September 26 [14 favorites]
Adrienneleigh is both right and wrong, imo. (Serves me right for not previewing). There is no biological essentialist reason for men=bad and women=good, but it’s not just interpersonal power it’s interpersonal power backed by hundreds of years of structural power, backended by religious shit, that causes these situations, and there is just no way to run a control group for that until some group other than cis men has been in power for a thousand years, which since I seek to tear down power structures I hope will never happen.
So: wrong about the same level of shit happening in queer relationships, but right that there’s no bio essentialist reason for this shit.
posted by corb at 11:55 AM on September 26 [10 favorites]
So: wrong about the same level of shit happening in queer relationships, but right that there’s no bio essentialist reason for this shit.
posted by corb at 11:55 AM on September 26 [10 favorites]
We agree, corb.
posted by edithkeeler at 11:58 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
posted by edithkeeler at 11:58 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
What we are seeing right now I believe to be a backlash against women's gains. We saw this during the 70s in the United States and when we look at recent cases in the news it's been accomplished women (eg. Dr. Moumita Debnath, Olympian Rebecca Cheptegei). It also appears that Gisèle Pelicot was very professionally accomplished and the abuse may have started once she retired in 2013 and her husband moved her out of Paris.
one can see a manifestation of this in the 2022 skorean election
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:00 PM on September 26
one can see a manifestation of this in the 2022 skorean election
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:00 PM on September 26
Patriarchy is the rule of fathers, not just the rule of 'men.' The power and the hierarchy baked into our rape culture, which is in existance to enable the patriarchal societal structure we languish under, well, it hurts literally everyone.
I weep for the children twisted to believe toxic masculinity is okay, and I weep more for their victims, but I do not willingly ascribe to a perception of male humans being in sole possession of the original sin of abuse and hate.
The subtext of such a statement/position is that the small (statistically speaking) number of male victims should just be quiet when people say 'yes, all men.'
on preview: Corb said it better than I could, and I'll step out of any more comments in this thread so I don't take up space.
posted by Jarcat at 12:00 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
I weep for the children twisted to believe toxic masculinity is okay, and I weep more for their victims, but I do not willingly ascribe to a perception of male humans being in sole possession of the original sin of abuse and hate.
The subtext of such a statement/position is that the small (statistically speaking) number of male victims should just be quiet when people say 'yes, all men.'
on preview: Corb said it better than I could, and I'll step out of any more comments in this thread so I don't take up space.
posted by Jarcat at 12:00 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
the small (statistically speaking) number of male victims should just be quiet when people say 'yes, all men.'
Just to clarify, the statistic on male victims of sexual violence is not small. 1 in 4 men report experiencing unwanted sexual contact in their lifetime (it’s 1 in 2 for women). The statistic is 1 in 26 men experience “rape” because the CDC definition of rape requires unwanted oral, vaginal, or anal penetration. When the question is instead about being made to penetrate someone else, the number jumps to 1 in 9. And that’s only what’s reported. NCVS data showed women’s self-report of experiences of sexual assault doubled in the wake of the #MeToo movement; I don’t know what we would find if a similar movement focused on men speaking up about their experiences with sexual assault took the same kind of hold.
But I don’t know if we as a society are ready to talk about how we have structurally defined sexual assault based on how women tend to be sexually assaulted, and then use those statistics to say men largely don’t experience sexual assault. It really makes me sad how much that structure divides victims and prevents stronger collaboration and allyship that we desperately need.
posted by brook horse at 12:24 PM on September 26 [18 favorites]
Just to clarify, the statistic on male victims of sexual violence is not small. 1 in 4 men report experiencing unwanted sexual contact in their lifetime (it’s 1 in 2 for women). The statistic is 1 in 26 men experience “rape” because the CDC definition of rape requires unwanted oral, vaginal, or anal penetration. When the question is instead about being made to penetrate someone else, the number jumps to 1 in 9. And that’s only what’s reported. NCVS data showed women’s self-report of experiences of sexual assault doubled in the wake of the #MeToo movement; I don’t know what we would find if a similar movement focused on men speaking up about their experiences with sexual assault took the same kind of hold.
But I don’t know if we as a society are ready to talk about how we have structurally defined sexual assault based on how women tend to be sexually assaulted, and then use those statistics to say men largely don’t experience sexual assault. It really makes me sad how much that structure divides victims and prevents stronger collaboration and allyship that we desperately need.
posted by brook horse at 12:24 PM on September 26 [18 favorites]
Just to clarify, the statistic on male victims of sexual violence is not small. 1 in 4 men report experiencing unwanted sexual contact in their lifetime (it’s 1 in 2 for women).
I'm in that demographic, brooke horse, so I was trying to be respectful of the context by downplaying things, which is its own thing; I apologize for any harm that came from minimizing or anything
posted by Jarcat at 12:39 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
No ill will Jarcat, and I’m sorry if you felt pressured to disclose that. There were a couple of posts referring to it as small and yours was just the most recent, probably should have just posted without quoting.
posted by brook horse at 12:43 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 12:43 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
Mod note: No comments deleted so far, but let's avoid centering around male victims when the topic at hand is a woman raped by men.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:51 PM on September 26 [11 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:51 PM on September 26 [11 favorites]
Just to de escalate here, I think it’s important to note that one can be both well intentioned, a valued and long time member of the community, and also wrong. God knows I have had some truly embarrassing and cringe worthy wrong well-intentioned opinions in the past, which I am deeply grateful that people pointed out were wrong and didn’t keep letting me sit in my wrong opinions so that I do not continue to hold those wrong opinions.
That said, I think it’s important to focus back on: how the hell can we change this, when the issue isn’t just “a few bad apples” but is a wide spread societal force actively reinforced by I would say at least 20-30% of the population!
posted by corb at 1:18 PM on September 26 [11 favorites]
That said, I think it’s important to focus back on: how the hell can we change this, when the issue isn’t just “a few bad apples” but is a wide spread societal force actively reinforced by I would say at least 20-30% of the population!
posted by corb at 1:18 PM on September 26 [11 favorites]
Mod note: Deleted several comment that sparked from this comment. The member in question has apologized so, let's please move on and stay on topic.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:53 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 1:53 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
That said, I think it’s important to focus back on: how the hell can we change this, when the issue isn’t just “a few bad apples” but is a wide spread societal force actively reinforced by I would say at least 20-30% of the population!
I know I said I'd duck out (but I'm apparently a silly goose) and really want to hear the discussion about this because it's a fight worth fighting that I want to be a part of.
posted by Jarcat at 2:01 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
I know I said I'd duck out (but I'm apparently a silly goose) and really want to hear the discussion about this because it's a fight worth fighting that I want to be a part of.
posted by Jarcat at 2:01 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
Here’s a list of risk and protective factors regarding what may influence someone to perpetrate sexual violence. I can imagine a lot of different potential interventions from this; what are others’ thoughts on what might be most achievable and effective? (On quick search re: interventions I only saw stuff specific to higher education and am thinking more broadly, though I may dig in a little more later.)
posted by brook horse at 2:45 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 2:45 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
Results from the end of day:
Ended up making a tiny tool that took comments from reddit and put them through a style transfer to preserve much of their meaning but rewrite it and hallucinate what might be said if the poster were a different gender. It was an interesting experiment with no results besides starting a conversation.
Then I checked MeMail. I think I'm expected to keep this private?
From :
DeepSeaHaggis
Date :
Sep 26, 2024 9:53 AM
Subject :
It's not our place
Message :
To offer such long comments in that thread. I understand why you'd want to contribute like that but those comments are just too long to be productive and take focus away from the people whose thread that is.
I didn't mention it here because it had nothing to do with the conversation and I was literally only trying to respond to a request for someone to run numbers, but check my history and I do cover one of the times I was raped. The other time was when I was younger and trapped. I centered the numbers for a reason. It's something I can actually sorta do.
This is the poster who then attacked me for "writing so much impotent apologia? Seriously, was that the output of some ironic bot?" after I introduced myself as being neurodiverse.
I get that I screwed up. This sucks.
posted by 1024 at 3:55 PM on September 26 [6 favorites]
Ended up making a tiny tool that took comments from reddit and put them through a style transfer to preserve much of their meaning but rewrite it and hallucinate what might be said if the poster were a different gender. It was an interesting experiment with no results besides starting a conversation.
Then I checked MeMail. I think I'm expected to keep this private?
From :
DeepSeaHaggis
Date :
Sep 26, 2024 9:53 AM
Subject :
It's not our place
Message :
To offer such long comments in that thread. I understand why you'd want to contribute like that but those comments are just too long to be productive and take focus away from the people whose thread that is.
I didn't mention it here because it had nothing to do with the conversation and I was literally only trying to respond to a request for someone to run numbers, but check my history and I do cover one of the times I was raped. The other time was when I was younger and trapped. I centered the numbers for a reason. It's something I can actually sorta do.
This is the poster who then attacked me for "writing so much impotent apologia? Seriously, was that the output of some ironic bot?" after I introduced myself as being neurodiverse.
I get that I screwed up. This sucks.
posted by 1024 at 3:55 PM on September 26 [6 favorites]
I can imagine a lot of different potential interventions from this; what are others’ thoughts on what might be most achievable and effective?
Excellent question, thank you for it. For the men who choose to abuse in this Jekyll/Hyde, “secret sexual basement” manner (for lack of more precise terms here), Dr. Omar Minwalla’s Model would be my recommendation. He’s legit, and won’t blame/shame/create more work for/traumatize the victim, unlike a lot of hacks peddling so-called “sex addiction recovery” counseling (such a terrible framing of this level and type of abuse.)
For the partner/survivors, “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft (free PDF can be found online), “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” by Patricia Evans, and “Leave A Cheater, Gain A Life” by Chump Lady.
posted by edithkeeler at 3:59 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
Excellent question, thank you for it. For the men who choose to abuse in this Jekyll/Hyde, “secret sexual basement” manner (for lack of more precise terms here), Dr. Omar Minwalla’s Model would be my recommendation. He’s legit, and won’t blame/shame/create more work for/traumatize the victim, unlike a lot of hacks peddling so-called “sex addiction recovery” counseling (such a terrible framing of this level and type of abuse.)
For the partner/survivors, “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft (free PDF can be found online), “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” by Patricia Evans, and “Leave A Cheater, Gain A Life” by Chump Lady.
posted by edithkeeler at 3:59 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
Regarding that Scientific American post arguing that women are equivalent :
1) Run it through Reddit and you'll find it was spread far and wide primarily on Men's Rights and Anti-Feminism subreddits.
2) A pretty relevant sentence left out of the pasted summary: "In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men. "
3) There is an issue of telephone data interpretation already happening in this article where they state "A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19." while the study itself states "Sixteen years of age was by far the most common age at first perpetration (n = 18 [40%]). Youths whose first sexual violence perpetration was at age 15 years or younger were overwhelmingly (98%) male; similarly high rates (90%) were also noted among perpetrators who began at ages 16 or 17 years. By ages 18 or 19 years, the split of male to female perpetrators was nearly equivalent. More females reported older victims, and more males reported younger victims." This also doesn't look at the trajectory beyond 19 years of age and the study of focusing pretty specifically on teenagers' being influenced by violent media.
4) The overall numbers are quite low in this sample compared to what is seen in later age cohorts and the numbers also tend to become again far more skewed . Check the demographics table here.
There was a similar statistic touted for awhile about domestic violence being 50/50; the issue was that it was based on the Conflict Tactics Scale which counted any act of violence as one unit of violence. This means that fighting back counted as doing a violence and the real story was that women were engaging in reactive violence not that they were equivalent in abuse towards romantic partners.
There are absolutely contexts in which women abuse their power and do harm to others and act like violent horror shows. But if we want to solve any of these issues it does no good to incorrectly categorize a problem as "everyone does it a little!" This is a subset of cis men, what are we going to do about these guys?
(I also have thoughts about nature/nurture and interventions but am recovering from surgery and that comment just took it out of me so will save for later, oof.)
posted by JaneTheGood at 4:28 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
1) Run it through Reddit and you'll find it was spread far and wide primarily on Men's Rights and Anti-Feminism subreddits.
2) A pretty relevant sentence left out of the pasted summary: "In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men. "
3) There is an issue of telephone data interpretation already happening in this article where they state "A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19." while the study itself states "Sixteen years of age was by far the most common age at first perpetration (n = 18 [40%]). Youths whose first sexual violence perpetration was at age 15 years or younger were overwhelmingly (98%) male; similarly high rates (90%) were also noted among perpetrators who began at ages 16 or 17 years. By ages 18 or 19 years, the split of male to female perpetrators was nearly equivalent. More females reported older victims, and more males reported younger victims." This also doesn't look at the trajectory beyond 19 years of age and the study of focusing pretty specifically on teenagers' being influenced by violent media.
4) The overall numbers are quite low in this sample compared to what is seen in later age cohorts and the numbers also tend to become again far more skewed . Check the demographics table here.
There was a similar statistic touted for awhile about domestic violence being 50/50; the issue was that it was based on the Conflict Tactics Scale which counted any act of violence as one unit of violence. This means that fighting back counted as doing a violence and the real story was that women were engaging in reactive violence not that they were equivalent in abuse towards romantic partners.
There are absolutely contexts in which women abuse their power and do harm to others and act like violent horror shows. But if we want to solve any of these issues it does no good to incorrectly categorize a problem as "everyone does it a little!" This is a subset of cis men, what are we going to do about these guys?
(I also have thoughts about nature/nurture and interventions but am recovering from surgery and that comment just took it out of me so will save for later, oof.)
posted by JaneTheGood at 4:28 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
Missed the edit window, just wanted to add the CDC's 2016/2017 Report
on Sexual Violence.
posted by JaneTheGood at 4:38 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
on Sexual Violence.
posted by JaneTheGood at 4:38 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. To re-iterate as Loup's note says above: This is not the thread to be centering male victims. Please stick to the subject of the thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:30 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:30 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
This specific thread is about the drugging and rape of Gisèle Pélicot many, many times by 80 men invited to do so by her husband in a small, rural town over a decade - and that she insisted on waiving her anonymity so that the men responsible (Dominique having taken many pictures and videos of the rapes) could also be named in a massive act of courage, and a challenge to French society to come to a reckoning with the entrenched misogyny and impunity and turning a blind eye that allowed this to continue for so long - and also fully exposes the cruel victim blaming tactics of defence lawyers in rape trials, suggesting she somehow invited or caused this. That the trial has revealed at least two partners of her rapists may have had something similar happen to them, and who knows how many other rapes and assaults will come to light because of this trial.
These men were ordinary members of society, covering a full range of ages, professions, respected, unknown, all gathered together on an anonymous message board where nobody, not one person reported it. Where only 3 men left when they found out that this was not some form of roleplay but indeed just straight, obvious rape. That 30 men of the 80 have not yet been identified or found.
Women commit sexual violence and rape too, this is indeed true.
But *this* case is about 80 men who colluded to each rape an unconcious woman for a decade, the wider patriarchy that let them feel entitled to do it because her husband said so, because they wanted to, and a huge, widespread culture of silence and deliberate ignorance amongst so many men that knew, and did nothing - they were caught because he was caught upskirting someone else. I have not read about any evidence of women or others that knew what was going on and ignored it, but please do add it if so.
*This* case is about how rape in France is treated as something shameful - for the victim. That women should just expect and deal with it, because that's just how some super-rare bad men are, nothing to do with anyone else. That she should be grateful that they didn't kill her, so it can't be so bad (town mayor). That if it doesn't involve grabbing an unknown woman off the street, it's not even really rape (man on the street belief). That it wasn't rape because she wanted it (actual defence argument). It's forcing the French public to face an absolutely sickening truth that so many women already long since knew - rape is not some super rare, stranger danger event, but one that so, so many men bring into their homes, do to their partners and families, that it's a huge percentage of men that will rape given the opportunity, often believing it's not really rape, that it's so rarely caught or believed, and an even bigger percentage who will turn the other way and deny or ignore it.
Is there a time and a place to discuss sexual violence and rape committed by women in depth? Of course.
Is it *this* thread, where 72 year old Gisèle Pélicot and her many supporters demand justice for her, and also to try and bring about change from persistent male violence on women that love them, male rape of their partners, and a culture that absolutely means so many men are rapists in fact or desire and feel no shame in that, are almost encouraged to be by our approach to sex where men are trained as boys and by TV and films and songs and books to be in charge, to chase women and coerce, demand, finangle or con them into sex, regardless of what she wants, one where women are expected to hand over sex like some fucking vending machine if you pull that right levers, where their wants and desires and consent only matter in romance books which hardly any men ever read, and if they won't do what they're told then so many men feel entitled to just take it, that is shared in so, so, so many places?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 6:29 PM on September 26 [43 favorites]
These men were ordinary members of society, covering a full range of ages, professions, respected, unknown, all gathered together on an anonymous message board where nobody, not one person reported it. Where only 3 men left when they found out that this was not some form of roleplay but indeed just straight, obvious rape. That 30 men of the 80 have not yet been identified or found.
Women commit sexual violence and rape too, this is indeed true.
But *this* case is about 80 men who colluded to each rape an unconcious woman for a decade, the wider patriarchy that let them feel entitled to do it because her husband said so, because they wanted to, and a huge, widespread culture of silence and deliberate ignorance amongst so many men that knew, and did nothing - they were caught because he was caught upskirting someone else. I have not read about any evidence of women or others that knew what was going on and ignored it, but please do add it if so.
*This* case is about how rape in France is treated as something shameful - for the victim. That women should just expect and deal with it, because that's just how some super-rare bad men are, nothing to do with anyone else. That she should be grateful that they didn't kill her, so it can't be so bad (town mayor). That if it doesn't involve grabbing an unknown woman off the street, it's not even really rape (man on the street belief). That it wasn't rape because she wanted it (actual defence argument). It's forcing the French public to face an absolutely sickening truth that so many women already long since knew - rape is not some super rare, stranger danger event, but one that so, so many men bring into their homes, do to their partners and families, that it's a huge percentage of men that will rape given the opportunity, often believing it's not really rape, that it's so rarely caught or believed, and an even bigger percentage who will turn the other way and deny or ignore it.
Is there a time and a place to discuss sexual violence and rape committed by women in depth? Of course.
Is it *this* thread, where 72 year old Gisèle Pélicot and her many supporters demand justice for her, and also to try and bring about change from persistent male violence on women that love them, male rape of their partners, and a culture that absolutely means so many men are rapists in fact or desire and feel no shame in that, are almost encouraged to be by our approach to sex where men are trained as boys and by TV and films and songs and books to be in charge, to chase women and coerce, demand, finangle or con them into sex, regardless of what she wants, one where women are expected to hand over sex like some fucking vending machine if you pull that right levers, where their wants and desires and consent only matter in romance books which hardly any men ever read, and if they won't do what they're told then so many men feel entitled to just take it, that is shared in so, so, so many places?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 6:29 PM on September 26 [43 favorites]
"Is there a time and a place to discuss sexual violence and rape committed by women in depth? Of course.
Is it *this* thread, where 72 year old Gisèle Pélicot and her many supporters demand justice for her, and also to try and bring about change from persistent male violence on women that love them, male rape of their partners, and a culture that absolutely means so many men are rapists in fact or desire and feel no shame in that, are almost encouraged to be by our approach to sex where men are trained as boys and by TV and films and songs and books to be in charge, to chase women and coerce, demand, finangle or con them into sex, regardless of what she wants, one where women are expected to hand over sex like some fucking vending machine if you pull that right levers, where their wants and desires and consent only matter in romance books which hardly any men ever read, and if they won't do what they're told then so many men feel entitled to just take it, that is shared in so, so, so many places?"
Flagged as fantastic. (And the answer is "no." The other topic deserves its own discussion in its own thread, too.)
posted by rpfields at 6:49 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
Is it *this* thread, where 72 year old Gisèle Pélicot and her many supporters demand justice for her, and also to try and bring about change from persistent male violence on women that love them, male rape of their partners, and a culture that absolutely means so many men are rapists in fact or desire and feel no shame in that, are almost encouraged to be by our approach to sex where men are trained as boys and by TV and films and songs and books to be in charge, to chase women and coerce, demand, finangle or con them into sex, regardless of what she wants, one where women are expected to hand over sex like some fucking vending machine if you pull that right levers, where their wants and desires and consent only matter in romance books which hardly any men ever read, and if they won't do what they're told then so many men feel entitled to just take it, that is shared in so, so, so many places?"
Flagged as fantastic. (And the answer is "no." The other topic deserves its own discussion in its own thread, too.)
posted by rpfields at 6:49 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
Gisèle Pélicot is a hero of the greatest magnitude; her strength and dignity has been so moving and, in spite of the horror of it all (that photograph of the defendants lining up at court, my god) inspiring.
I haven't read the rest of the comments here yet, as I'm not sure I feel up to the emotional swings and roundabouts this trial will no doubt spawn, and because I'm still not over the shitshow torture chamber that Jonny Depp constructed for Amber Heard. Anyway, here goes.
posted by jokeefe at 7:53 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
I haven't read the rest of the comments here yet, as I'm not sure I feel up to the emotional swings and roundabouts this trial will no doubt spawn, and because I'm still not over the shitshow torture chamber that Jonny Depp constructed for Amber Heard. Anyway, here goes.
posted by jokeefe at 7:53 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
Hey everyone who wanted a space to talk about male rape victims, I make for you: Men get raped too
posted by Jacqueline at 9:12 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 9:12 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
WTF. Truly a shining (hellish?) example of the notion that a woman is her husband's property
One reportedly went so far as to claim “consent by delegation” – in other words, her husband said it was okay, so that’s enough. “He does what he wants with his wife,” the man apparently said. “As long as the husband was there, there was no rape”.posted by spamandkimchi at 10:48 PM on September 26 [7 favorites]
(and of course my first thought was "don't read the comments [on the linked websites] because they will probably be violently pro-rape". )
I read them so you don't have to. Whatever you're thinking, it's worse. Much worse.
The problem is Men. I'm a Man. The problem is Men.
posted by dg at 11:44 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
I read them so you don't have to. Whatever you're thinking, it's worse. Much worse.
The problem is Men. I'm a Man. The problem is Men.
posted by dg at 11:44 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
You know, I was thinking about this all day, and specifically, the “men own the rights to their female partners body” assumptions, and thinking how baked in they are at the lower levels for even “normal”, “everyday” men, that are minor “gateway” events to things like this. How common is it for men to share either naked or risqué pictures that were never meant to be shared of their partners with other men, who never even begin to think “gosh, there’s something deeply wrong here, I should tell someone.” It’s just considered a harmless “showing off” activity, even if the women in question never meant those photos to be shared and would be horrified. Or from another direction: how common is it for men to talk to other men in a degrading way about the sex that they had with women, including with intimate details about their bodies they would not want shared? To share “tip-offs” on women they have had sex with and so think are sexually “available”? And yet no one stops them at these stages.
posted by corb at 11:52 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:52 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
how common is it for men to talk to other men in a degrading way about the sex that they had with women, including with intimate details about their bodies they would not want shared? To share “tip-offs” on women they have had sex with and so think are sexually “available”? And yet no one stops them at these stages.
So I had a bit of a “wild” year before corona (caveat that I was living in Germany at the time so there could be a cultural difference). I never once met a man who thought it was ok to talk about that stuff with their guy friends (maybe only a best friend). It could be that I just happened to meet loads of men who would lie (some of them probably were lying) but all said if anyone in their friend group talked like that, they would be considered an asshole and would probably be ostracized.
At the same time, I had a group of single girl friends and omg did we discuss everything. We remarked many times that if a group of men was overheard saying the same things we did, people would think they are total assholes. It wasn’t only them. Thinking back to all my friend groups, whenever it was just women together, sometimes we would talk pretty openly and brazenly about our experiences. So either It’s fairly common for groups of women to talk about sex or maybe I’m the common denominator bringing the bar lower for everyone else?
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:00 AM on September 27 [3 favorites]
So I had a bit of a “wild” year before corona (caveat that I was living in Germany at the time so there could be a cultural difference). I never once met a man who thought it was ok to talk about that stuff with their guy friends (maybe only a best friend). It could be that I just happened to meet loads of men who would lie (some of them probably were lying) but all said if anyone in their friend group talked like that, they would be considered an asshole and would probably be ostracized.
At the same time, I had a group of single girl friends and omg did we discuss everything. We remarked many times that if a group of men was overheard saying the same things we did, people would think they are total assholes. It wasn’t only them. Thinking back to all my friend groups, whenever it was just women together, sometimes we would talk pretty openly and brazenly about our experiences. So either It’s fairly common for groups of women to talk about sex or maybe I’m the common denominator bringing the bar lower for everyone else?
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:00 AM on September 27 [3 favorites]
Awesome. In a thread about the magnificent actions of Gisèle Pélicot in holding accountable the men who raped and abused her, we end up here: "Sexual Victimization by Women Is More Common Than Previously Known". Just no, okay? No. There's a conversation to be had about the appearance of sexual violence among women who are granted power enough to dehumanize victims and assault them; but the kind of organized, massive rape system that we see in this case just isn't a thing that women participate in unless they are abetting men. This shouldn't be controversial. And this remark barely deserves comment as it's supremely petty but really? "cis people learning the terms amab/afab (which originate from the intersex community before being adapted to the trans community) was a mistake". Come on.
posted by jokeefe at 1:03 AM on September 27 [7 favorites]
posted by jokeefe at 1:03 AM on September 27 [7 favorites]
even if the women in question never meant those photos to be shared and would be horrified.
A woman’s nudes ending up shared and discussed on a men’s group chat - unbeknownst to her - is extremely common. It’s a normalized humiliation ritual. The victim blaming DARVO then goes something like “pick better men.” Nevermind the fact she doesn’t know about it in the first place, and wouldn’t unless, say, one of the men broke rank and told her. Or she looked through his phone - of course she’d get pilloried for violating his privacy…
I friend dumped a guy I’ve known since 1991 who got weirdly defensive of the rapist Matt Lauer, and kept arguing with me that Dominique had every right to “ask his wife for an open marriage and look elsewhere when she turned him down.” Jfc.
posted by edithkeeler at 1:03 AM on September 27 [7 favorites]
A woman’s nudes ending up shared and discussed on a men’s group chat - unbeknownst to her - is extremely common. It’s a normalized humiliation ritual. The victim blaming DARVO then goes something like “pick better men.” Nevermind the fact she doesn’t know about it in the first place, and wouldn’t unless, say, one of the men broke rank and told her. Or she looked through his phone - of course she’d get pilloried for violating his privacy…
I friend dumped a guy I’ve known since 1991 who got weirdly defensive of the rapist Matt Lauer, and kept arguing with me that Dominique had every right to “ask his wife for an open marriage and look elsewhere when she turned him down.” Jfc.
posted by edithkeeler at 1:03 AM on September 27 [7 favorites]
We ended up there because people were repeatedly claiming that sexual
assault as a whole (and indeed murder, violence, and abuse in general) are almost entirely a men problem. My point was not about this specific case but about the many, many comments broadening beyond this case to all sexual assault and violence as a specifically and even biologically male problem. Which the data shows it is not. Preventing sexual assault of any kind means acknowledging this; we can’t change it if we put blinders on and say we just need to fix cis men when sexual assault is endemic in our society as a whole.
posted by brook horse at 3:15 AM on September 27 [7 favorites]
assault as a whole (and indeed murder, violence, and abuse in general) are almost entirely a men problem. My point was not about this specific case but about the many, many comments broadening beyond this case to all sexual assault and violence as a specifically and even biologically male problem. Which the data shows it is not. Preventing sexual assault of any kind means acknowledging this; we can’t change it if we put blinders on and say we just need to fix cis men when sexual assault is endemic in our society as a whole.
posted by brook horse at 3:15 AM on September 27 [7 favorites]
Hey everyone who wanted a space to talk about male rape victims, I make for you: Men get raped too
Thank you, Jacqueline, for performing that very kind and thoughtful labor for the benefit of men victims of men and their enablers so they can have their own space to be fully heard.💕
One of my favorite things about MeFi is that, even though we unfortunately can’t block people who choose to break our agreed community rules, anyone can make a post on the blue, or even a MeTa, to discuss their own or someone else’s important issue, and it’s really interesting and validating to see who actually walks the walk. The antidote to bad speech is more speech, where folks are still willing to listen in good faith. Thank you for being the change we wish to see. 💕
posted by edithkeeler at 4:37 AM on September 27 [6 favorites]
Thank you, Jacqueline, for performing that very kind and thoughtful labor for the benefit of men victims of men and their enablers so they can have their own space to be fully heard.💕
One of my favorite things about MeFi is that, even though we unfortunately can’t block people who choose to break our agreed community rules, anyone can make a post on the blue, or even a MeTa, to discuss their own or someone else’s important issue, and it’s really interesting and validating to see who actually walks the walk. The antidote to bad speech is more speech, where folks are still willing to listen in good faith. Thank you for being the change we wish to see. 💕
posted by edithkeeler at 4:37 AM on September 27 [6 favorites]
Preventing sexual assault means acknowledging the clear facts that the vast majority of sexual assaults targeting women are done by men, and that the majority of sexual assaults do target women. Many of the sexual assaults targeting men are also done by men. The vast majority of people who kill their partners (male or female) are men, and men do commit far more than their share of murder, violence, and abuse in general, particularly the most severe incidents. And 100% of the 80 rapists in this particular case are men, as far as we know. None of this data is invalidated by the small minority of women who also do those things (typically on a far smaller scale and/or under unusual circumstances).
Two things can be true at the same time. Sexual assault is endemic in our society, and so is misogyny. These two things are closely linked, and there are likely other interrelated causes that are not fully understood. I think everyone here agrees that the problem is not as simple as men, or the subsets of cis males or XY people, being somehow inherently or genetically flawed. But to start discussing and understanding and maybe eventually trying to reverse those causes, we need to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place, and that the problem is not gender-neutral.
posted by randomnity at 6:11 AM on September 27 [13 favorites]
Two things can be true at the same time. Sexual assault is endemic in our society, and so is misogyny. These two things are closely linked, and there are likely other interrelated causes that are not fully understood. I think everyone here agrees that the problem is not as simple as men, or the subsets of cis males or XY people, being somehow inherently or genetically flawed. But to start discussing and understanding and maybe eventually trying to reverse those causes, we need to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place, and that the problem is not gender-neutral.
posted by randomnity at 6:11 AM on September 27 [13 favorites]
I have no particular qualifications in this area other than having lived a while and seen some shit. But it seems to me that a great recipe for this behavior is 1) raise kids to learn early on that they exist within a status hierarchy and their personal safety depends on their ability to gain status, such that if they are targeted for violence and abuse they can't rely on protection and will be told it's their responsibility to behave in ways that will gain them status, and 2) absolutely permeate society with the message that status for male coded people is largely derived from dominant sexual access to female coded people.
posted by Rhedyn at 6:43 AM on September 27 [4 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 6:43 AM on September 27 [4 favorites]
I'm a dude but this woman's story is beyond belief - and I don't mean that I don't believe it, I mean I can't even imagine a person acting this way towards another human, let alone their spouse. Repeatedly drugged her to unconsciousness and she had to have some idea that she kept blacking out, but oh you had to much to drink or whatever. 100+ times! And her husband kept thousands of pictures of the crimes. A website facilitating the crime. A decade of abuse. Her story is literally worse than the criminals shown in movies.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:08 PM on September 27 [4 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:08 PM on September 27 [4 favorites]
kept arguing with me that Dominique had every right to “ask his wife for an open marriage and look elsewhere when she turned him down
FFS what is wrong with people when they choose not to see the difference between asking a partner whether a less conventional sexual set up would be ok, and arranging for a partner to be repeatedly raped. In addition, having an affair is an unpleasant thing to do to someone, but it does not in anyway resemble the crime in this trial.
posted by plonkee at 7:34 AM on September 28 [10 favorites]
FFS what is wrong with people when they choose not to see the difference between asking a partner whether a less conventional sexual set up would be ok, and arranging for a partner to be repeatedly raped. In addition, having an affair is an unpleasant thing to do to someone, but it does not in anyway resemble the crime in this trial.
posted by plonkee at 7:34 AM on September 28 [10 favorites]
It could be that I just happened to meet loads of men who would lie (some of them probably were lying) but all said if anyone in their friend group talked like that, they would be considered an asshole and would probably be ostracized.
I can't speak to every space, but as I said, I tend to get male-coded a lot because of the veteran status, and I hear a *lot* of this, not just from veterans, but from their straight white male friends that are talking to them. There is a lot of hate for women out there, a lot of men still viewing them as means to sex - and as someone else said above, status. And I think it's gotten worse in the last decade or so, as men feel increasingly insecure in their own status.
men are trained as boys and by TV and films and songs and books to be in charge, to chase women and coerce, demand, finangle or con them into sex, regardless of what she wants, one where women are expected to hand over sex like some fucking vending machine if you pull that right levers, where their wants and desires and consent only matter in romance books which hardly any men ever read
This is it - and I notice that as things get more complicated and that model is no longer socially approved, rather than starting to see TV and films and books where men are valuing women's wants and desires and consent, we actually start just start to see less TV and films modeling romance, or more where there is an increasingly contrived mechanism for the romance such that these things are never taken into consideration, or just where the woman is obviously into it and these things never have to be pondered. I cannot think of a single movie or television show marketed towards men where these things are expressed.
posted by corb at 10:07 AM on September 30 [7 favorites]
I can't speak to every space, but as I said, I tend to get male-coded a lot because of the veteran status, and I hear a *lot* of this, not just from veterans, but from their straight white male friends that are talking to them. There is a lot of hate for women out there, a lot of men still viewing them as means to sex - and as someone else said above, status. And I think it's gotten worse in the last decade or so, as men feel increasingly insecure in their own status.
men are trained as boys and by TV and films and songs and books to be in charge, to chase women and coerce, demand, finangle or con them into sex, regardless of what she wants, one where women are expected to hand over sex like some fucking vending machine if you pull that right levers, where their wants and desires and consent only matter in romance books which hardly any men ever read
This is it - and I notice that as things get more complicated and that model is no longer socially approved, rather than starting to see TV and films and books where men are valuing women's wants and desires and consent, we actually start just start to see less TV and films modeling romance, or more where there is an increasingly contrived mechanism for the romance such that these things are never taken into consideration, or just where the woman is obviously into it and these things never have to be pondered. I cannot think of a single movie or television show marketed towards men where these things are expressed.
posted by corb at 10:07 AM on September 30 [7 favorites]
The absolute nonsense these dudes say in their defense blows me away.
"We are rapists because we did not obtain consent, but we are not rapists at heart"
What does that even mean? If you raped someone, you're a rapist. Your heart didn't stop you. Also, who cares. You're a rapist.
Here is an exchange between one of the accused *who says he's not guilty* and a lawyer
- Was Madame Pelicot the victim of rape?
- Yes, she was raped, there was no consent.
- Who was penetrating Madame Pelicot when she was the victim of this rape?
- I don't understand the question
- Who put his penis in her vagina?
- It was her husband first, then me
- Do you admit to having raped Madame Pelicot?
- Logically, yes
Out loud. "Logically, yes". With a straight face. I know he's trying to avoid prison and saying whatever bullshit necessary, but hnnnngggghhhh.
They seem so whiny, somehow? "Waah, I didn't knoooow, how was I supposed to knoooow, he didn't tell me." The tragedy here, to them, is that a man lied to them. The rape is a kind of unfortunate consequene, a whoopsie that wouldn't have happened if only this master manipulator hadn't manipulated them with manipulation. He seemed like a nice guy, you see, but he totally lied, so he is the one responsible for their penises entering Madame Pelicot's unconscious mouth and/or vagina repeatedly, sometimes on several separate occasions. One guy "visited" six times! Six times Monsieur Pelicot compelled his dick, what a guy!
It's a murderous irritation I feel. Like, I am actively being tortured AND there is a mosquito in the room. I can withstand some pain, but the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEeeeeee? No no.
All this, when
"Defence lawyers asked Gisèle Pelicot if she understood that men who saw these kinds of photos online could think she wanted a sexual encounter, even while drugged. She said men could “ask whether I consented to intercourse”."
all they had to do was ask. (but then she might have said no. and you're not a rapist at heart.)
Fucking hell, what are we even doing. How stupid. I had to rant. Now, I am no longer sober.
posted by haapsane at 4:01 PM on October 4 [4 favorites]
"We are rapists because we did not obtain consent, but we are not rapists at heart"
What does that even mean? If you raped someone, you're a rapist. Your heart didn't stop you. Also, who cares. You're a rapist.
Here is an exchange between one of the accused *who says he's not guilty* and a lawyer
- Was Madame Pelicot the victim of rape?
- Yes, she was raped, there was no consent.
- Who was penetrating Madame Pelicot when she was the victim of this rape?
- I don't understand the question
- Who put his penis in her vagina?
- It was her husband first, then me
- Do you admit to having raped Madame Pelicot?
- Logically, yes
Out loud. "Logically, yes". With a straight face. I know he's trying to avoid prison and saying whatever bullshit necessary, but hnnnngggghhhh.
They seem so whiny, somehow? "Waah, I didn't knoooow, how was I supposed to knoooow, he didn't tell me." The tragedy here, to them, is that a man lied to them. The rape is a kind of unfortunate consequene, a whoopsie that wouldn't have happened if only this master manipulator hadn't manipulated them with manipulation. He seemed like a nice guy, you see, but he totally lied, so he is the one responsible for their penises entering Madame Pelicot's unconscious mouth and/or vagina repeatedly, sometimes on several separate occasions. One guy "visited" six times! Six times Monsieur Pelicot compelled his dick, what a guy!
It's a murderous irritation I feel. Like, I am actively being tortured AND there is a mosquito in the room. I can withstand some pain, but the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEeeeeee? No no.
All this, when
"Defence lawyers asked Gisèle Pelicot if she understood that men who saw these kinds of photos online could think she wanted a sexual encounter, even while drugged. She said men could “ask whether I consented to intercourse”."
all they had to do was ask. (but then she might have said no. and you're not a rapist at heart.)
Fucking hell, what are we even doing. How stupid. I had to rant. Now, I am no longer sober.
posted by haapsane at 4:01 PM on October 4 [4 favorites]
O yae, follow @kajakareen, @MarionDub, @JulietteCampion, they're in court maybe everyday
posted by haapsane at 4:06 PM on October 4 [1 favorite]
posted by haapsane at 4:06 PM on October 4 [1 favorite]
There's a lot of shit that the defense bar gets unfairly accused of - but one thing they absolutely 110% own is their unwillingness to treat the "not guilty on account of the victim being a lying slut" "defense" as the major breach of ethics, morals, and general decency that it is. It is one of the best demonstrations of why the concept of "zealous representation" (which has always been in practice the last refuge of legal scoundrels looking to use the limit of ethical and legal behavior as a jump rope) needs to be taken behind the metaphorical shed and told to look at the butterflies.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:57 PM on October 4 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:57 PM on October 4 [4 favorites]
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