It’s how we know when to keep going and when to back off
September 26, 2024 1:04 AM Subscribe
Social Communication is a site dedicated to helping people improve their ability to communicate with others. We hope to provide straight talk about talk, tone, and other ways humans form and maintain social relationships, for people with social communication challenges. We recommend you start by reading more about social communication in general, but you might also be interested in how this site is organized and may be used by different audiences, the authors, sources, and inspirations, or just dive in by selecting a module.
Sample modules: Dialects - How much to say - Sarcasm - Flirting - and many more
Sample modules: Dialects - How much to say - Sarcasm - Flirting - and many more
Fascinating! The first questions that come to my mind, upon reading some of the modules—which are good-sense, pragmatic stuff—are: What proportions of these materials would we say are descriptive versus prescriptive? Because, second question, what proportions of these examples and behaviors would we consider bound by culture, socioeconomic class, gender, and age?
That's my fancy way of saying it, I guess. More to the point: I was the aspie kid who would read similar advice and ask, only to myself of course, "but are these rules?"
posted by vitia at 3:50 AM on September 26 [8 favorites]
That's my fancy way of saying it, I guess. More to the point: I was the aspie kid who would read similar advice and ask, only to myself of course, "but are these rules?"
posted by vitia at 3:50 AM on September 26 [8 favorites]
It looks interesting, but it doesn't seem terribly usable on a phone. I may just not be awake enough yet.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:33 AM on September 26 [7 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:33 AM on September 26 [7 favorites]
A lot of good content hampered by bad UX. This site really should be plain text web 1.0 to make it as accessible as possible.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:42 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:42 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
This is amazing. The clarity in the writing is superb. I recently started a job with several people who I had a very hard time getting to know and work with. This would have been the perfect tool, and I will probably turn to it whenever I feel like I'm doing a bad job.
I grew up with How to Win Friends and Influence People, which was great and useful for me, but is dated AF.
I understand the criticism that the UX isn't great on a phone, and this MUST be fixed to make it a good tool for those who need it most. But the browser version is VERY easy and intuitive to navigate, so this is a project that has legs and just needs some better shoes. The people making it know what they're doing.
posted by es_de_bah at 5:13 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
I grew up with How to Win Friends and Influence People, which was great and useful for me, but is dated AF.
I understand the criticism that the UX isn't great on a phone, and this MUST be fixed to make it a good tool for those who need it most. But the browser version is VERY easy and intuitive to navigate, so this is a project that has legs and just needs some better shoes. The people making it know what they're doing.
posted by es_de_bah at 5:13 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
... humans...
... people...
On an admittedly cursory look through the site, this is deeply US-centric content (and probably much more narrow than that). Various things here are absolutely not universal, although for all I know they might be relevant in most Anglo cultures.
They do actually say this in the Organization page, but for a site about communication it would be good if they stated it prominently and clearly instead of burying it in one random page.
posted by trig at 7:11 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
... people...
On an admittedly cursory look through the site, this is deeply US-centric content (and probably much more narrow than that). Various things here are absolutely not universal, although for all I know they might be relevant in most Anglo cultures.
They do actually say this in the Organization page, but for a site about communication it would be good if they stated it prominently and clearly instead of burying it in one random page.
posted by trig at 7:11 AM on September 26 [5 favorites]
It's definitely US-centric, and I agree, probably specific to the power-majority culture here. (I'm very skeptical that you could write a site like this that wasn't culturally specific.) But OMG, what a great, great site for its target audience. What it says on the topics I checked out "feels" absolutely genuine and true. I sent it to Little eirias. Thank you for posting this!
posted by eirias at 7:19 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
posted by eirias at 7:19 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
This looks fab, just forwarded to a friend with an autistic daughter.
In the last decade Social Communication Disorder has been given its own diagnosis in the DSM and may or may not be part of the autism spectrum. My son was diagnosed with this and got very effective therapy afterward.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:07 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
In the last decade Social Communication Disorder has been given its own diagnosis in the DSM and may or may not be part of the autism spectrum. My son was diagnosed with this and got very effective therapy afterward.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:07 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
This is great and super interesting. I'm neurotypical and it still gave me multiple lightbulb moments.
I wish they had added something to the flirting section that if you are female presenting and a man doesn't understand your "no" or gets angry when you express your "no", it's not because you said it wrong.
posted by Omnomnom at 8:22 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
I wish they had added something to the flirting section that if you are female presenting and a man doesn't understand your "no" or gets angry when you express your "no", it's not because you said it wrong.
posted by Omnomnom at 8:22 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
Autistic peer-to-peer information transfer is highly effective
posted by Mirth at 9:13 AM on September 26 [7 favorites]
posted by Mirth at 9:13 AM on September 26 [7 favorites]
One of the things I say is "take the hint and go away." Some people have told me that they think it's awful I say that, that it's offensive to me, etc. But this website points out EXACTLY that you are supposed to be taking hints and going away!
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:26 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:26 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
I don't know what to make of this website. It's interesting, but something about it feels like teaching people allistic conversation styles without acknowledging that's what's happening. i.e. the person "struggling" to communicate is the one who should change, and it's not me (an allistic person) who should change and be more flexible with different ways of communication.
I feel like it would be kind of insulting to send it to any autistic person I know, without them explicitly asking for assistance in being more allistic in their conversation.
posted by Braeburn at 9:43 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
I feel like it would be kind of insulting to send it to any autistic person I know, without them explicitly asking for assistance in being more allistic in their conversation.
posted by Braeburn at 9:43 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
Thanks for sharing, this looks like a useful resource if it's accurate.
Can someone neurotypical comment on the accuracy of the "Recognizing Flirtatious Behavior" sections? I've always struggled with this (in both directions, attempting and identifying) so I'm obviously not qualified to evaluate it, but the majority of the points either seem impossible to distinguish from normal friendly conversation (like how on earth do you know what a flirty vs. non-flirty quantity of smiles/laughter is, especially since people think you're mad at them if you aren't putting on a happy expression literally nonstop) or very, very weird, like all the preening and pouting and stroking random objects stuff (do people really do that in real life, like intentionally as flirting, not just adjusting uncomfortable clothes or fidgeting etc?). I also noticed the sources for this section are fairly old by academic standards ('93-06) and of course there have been some large cultural shifts in that time, probably most notably those related to consent, so I'm wondering if that's changed anything about flirting.
posted by randomnity at 9:47 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
Can someone neurotypical comment on the accuracy of the "Recognizing Flirtatious Behavior" sections? I've always struggled with this (in both directions, attempting and identifying) so I'm obviously not qualified to evaluate it, but the majority of the points either seem impossible to distinguish from normal friendly conversation (like how on earth do you know what a flirty vs. non-flirty quantity of smiles/laughter is, especially since people think you're mad at them if you aren't putting on a happy expression literally nonstop) or very, very weird, like all the preening and pouting and stroking random objects stuff (do people really do that in real life, like intentionally as flirting, not just adjusting uncomfortable clothes or fidgeting etc?). I also noticed the sources for this section are fairly old by academic standards ('93-06) and of course there have been some large cultural shifts in that time, probably most notably those related to consent, so I'm wondering if that's changed anything about flirting.
posted by randomnity at 9:47 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
Flirting is a directed, specific activity. To be sure if flirting is directed at you, you need to observe the person's behaviour when interacting with people who are not you. If the smile, laugh, preen, use direct eye contact etc more when interacting with you, they are likely interested in you.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:01 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:01 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
Honestly, flirting CAN be like normal conversation...but with implied sexual interest, is how I define it. I used to have arguments with my old therapist on the topic because she thought flirting was just for fun and not always sexual and I said no, the point of flirting is that it IS sexual and that's why it's not a normal friendly platonic conversation. I agree that men not taking the hint and going away is a problem, albeit I think this page isn't forceful enough on that topic, because the guy has no incentive to take your no for an answer and a good chunk of them will not.
It's kind of annoying how they don't cover non-straight flirting because there aren't enough studies done on that, but I do wonder if it's pretty similar, other than "hey, it's cool to send dick picks to other men"-type stuff that I hear happens. But the behaviors are spelled out pretty clearly as to what to look for. Touching and body closeness and overly hard focusing on you are things. "So, are you single?" or questions trying to figure that out might happen. Also, if it's a strange dude and you're female, the odds of it being flirting are just plain higher.
As for the allistic thing, the website says this:
You are part of a minority, and like most minorities, you are expected to adjust to the tyranny of the majority. That may not seem fair, but you’re certainly not alone in this. African-Americans and other ethnic minorities are stigmatized when they use dialects which may be culturally meaningful to them; the LGBTQ community is stigmatized when it transgresses mainstream gender stereotypes; etc. It’s one thing to consciously reject the tyranny of the majority, to decide to go against the “rules,” knowing full well you’ll be penalized for it socially, but it’s a very different thing to be unaware that the rules even exist, to be penalized when you don’t even know why. This website is designed to demystify the rules. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.
You can't fight the majority of "these are the social rules we follow," is what they are saying. People who like and want to be around you will adjust, but strangers you're interviewing for a job with are a harder sell for that.
I have just posted this website elsewhere for the "socially awkward" people I know, we'll see if they have any reactions to this stuff. Some people have gone on about their feelings on the topic and how they don't follow things socially to me, so maybe that would help them? I dunno, it seemed worth a shot.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:26 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
It's kind of annoying how they don't cover non-straight flirting because there aren't enough studies done on that, but I do wonder if it's pretty similar, other than "hey, it's cool to send dick picks to other men"-type stuff that I hear happens. But the behaviors are spelled out pretty clearly as to what to look for. Touching and body closeness and overly hard focusing on you are things. "So, are you single?" or questions trying to figure that out might happen. Also, if it's a strange dude and you're female, the odds of it being flirting are just plain higher.
As for the allistic thing, the website says this:
You are part of a minority, and like most minorities, you are expected to adjust to the tyranny of the majority. That may not seem fair, but you’re certainly not alone in this. African-Americans and other ethnic minorities are stigmatized when they use dialects which may be culturally meaningful to them; the LGBTQ community is stigmatized when it transgresses mainstream gender stereotypes; etc. It’s one thing to consciously reject the tyranny of the majority, to decide to go against the “rules,” knowing full well you’ll be penalized for it socially, but it’s a very different thing to be unaware that the rules even exist, to be penalized when you don’t even know why. This website is designed to demystify the rules. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.
You can't fight the majority of "these are the social rules we follow," is what they are saying. People who like and want to be around you will adjust, but strangers you're interviewing for a job with are a harder sell for that.
I have just posted this website elsewhere for the "socially awkward" people I know, we'll see if they have any reactions to this stuff. Some people have gone on about their feelings on the topic and how they don't follow things socially to me, so maybe that would help them? I dunno, it seemed worth a shot.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:26 AM on September 26 [3 favorites]
Lol: going to this page (https://socialcommunication.truman.edu/attitudes-emotions/expressing-emotion/affection) gets "404 We couldn't find anything, try searching."
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:20 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:20 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]
Honestly, flirting CAN be like normal conversation...but with implied sexual interest, is how I define it. I used to have arguments with my old therapist on the topic because she thought flirting was just for fun and not always sexual and I said no, the point of flirting is that it IS sexual and that's why it's not a normal friendly platonic conversation.
You're both wrong lol. (It's joking, i am exaggerating for doin a joke!) There are many kinds of flirting and not all of them are sexual and not all of them are just for fun. The site actually goes pretty in depth on them and the ways in which flirting can be ambiguous in intention or outright not sexual in intention. Straight women flirt with other straight women all the time; gay men flirt with women all the time, even straight men flirt with other straight men -- most of them just would never ever in one million years call it that.
Can someone neurotypical comment on the accuracy of the "Recognizing Flirtatious Behavior" sections?
I found the section pretty dead-on actually. Unfortunately it is one of those situations that does not, cannot, follow hard and fast rules. It's not "well they smiled five times, if they smile two more times that means it's flirting." It's also the qualitative type of smile, the context of the smile, what they're doing with their eyes...there's a LOT of nuance, in fact flirting is basically entirely nuance, because as they note on the site, there is an element of trying to retain plausible deniability on both sides so that the interaction can pivot if the flirting is not reciprocated. People absolutely do the "preening and pouting and stroking random objects stuff" but it's not random at all; it's calculated, even if just subconsciously, to make the other person think about the physical -- the body, hair, hands, face.
It's definitely beyond communication 101, which is why people feel like it is rare to meet a good flirt, and why people who are good at flirting and being flirted with are often considered extra charming.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:56 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
You're both wrong lol. (It's joking, i am exaggerating for doin a joke!) There are many kinds of flirting and not all of them are sexual and not all of them are just for fun. The site actually goes pretty in depth on them and the ways in which flirting can be ambiguous in intention or outright not sexual in intention. Straight women flirt with other straight women all the time; gay men flirt with women all the time, even straight men flirt with other straight men -- most of them just would never ever in one million years call it that.
Can someone neurotypical comment on the accuracy of the "Recognizing Flirtatious Behavior" sections?
I found the section pretty dead-on actually. Unfortunately it is one of those situations that does not, cannot, follow hard and fast rules. It's not "well they smiled five times, if they smile two more times that means it's flirting." It's also the qualitative type of smile, the context of the smile, what they're doing with their eyes...there's a LOT of nuance, in fact flirting is basically entirely nuance, because as they note on the site, there is an element of trying to retain plausible deniability on both sides so that the interaction can pivot if the flirting is not reciprocated. People absolutely do the "preening and pouting and stroking random objects stuff" but it's not random at all; it's calculated, even if just subconsciously, to make the other person think about the physical -- the body, hair, hands, face.
It's definitely beyond communication 101, which is why people feel like it is rare to meet a good flirt, and why people who are good at flirting and being flirted with are often considered extra charming.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:56 PM on September 26 [4 favorites]
the subtle and ad-hoc nature of flirting is that it is an extremely common experience even for allistic people to go OH SHIT THEY WERE FLIRTING WITH ME well after the fact
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:43 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:43 PM on September 26 [5 favorites]
Blast, that is literally my old therapist's argument. Are you secretly my old therapist? :P
But seriously, whatever that is that people are doing with people they are not sexually attracted to, I would not do it. I literally only flirt onstage if I have to, but I would not act like that with anyone I'm just being friendly with and I just...don't like that word being assigned to me without romantic intention driving it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:56 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
But seriously, whatever that is that people are doing with people they are not sexually attracted to, I would not do it. I literally only flirt onstage if I have to, but I would not act like that with anyone I'm just being friendly with and I just...don't like that word being assigned to me without romantic intention driving it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:56 PM on September 26 [3 favorites]
I like the written exercises, they get my analytical brain going instead of my social anxiety brain. Even when I disagree with how the author has classified something it's fun to think about why.
The "Power and Solidarity" section is also the first I've heard of negative vs. positive politeness. It seems like a very useful way of thinking about situations where I can feel etiquette pulling me in two different directions. Like, if someone I'm not close to mentions plans and I invite myself along, that would be an imposition on them and violates the rules of negative politeness. But if we're close, and the invitation is implied, then by inviting myself along I'm increasing the sense of solidarity and closeness between us. Socializing is fun when it's an abstract puzzle instead of a performance I have to do in front of other people!
posted by extramachine at 8:10 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
The "Power and Solidarity" section is also the first I've heard of negative vs. positive politeness. It seems like a very useful way of thinking about situations where I can feel etiquette pulling me in two different directions. Like, if someone I'm not close to mentions plans and I invite myself along, that would be an imposition on them and violates the rules of negative politeness. But if we're close, and the invitation is implied, then by inviting myself along I'm increasing the sense of solidarity and closeness between us. Socializing is fun when it's an abstract puzzle instead of a performance I have to do in front of other people!
posted by extramachine at 8:10 PM on September 26 [2 favorites]
I was a bit prejudiced going in (US centric? Allistic-centric?) but having looked through some of this I think it's still really useful. Not so much a guide to masking as I expected.
I haven't read through all of it so I don't know if they acknowledge that some assumptions people make are more common to neurotypical people than ND - for example, seeing questions as a challenge to your authority, or thinking that people who say "Oh, that's happened to me too" are selfishly centering the conversation around themselves.
I do wish they'd gone for a simpler layout - this doesn't work on my phone at all, which is frustrating.
posted by Zumbador at 7:55 AM on September 27 [1 favorite]
I haven't read through all of it so I don't know if they acknowledge that some assumptions people make are more common to neurotypical people than ND - for example, seeing questions as a challenge to your authority, or thinking that people who say "Oh, that's happened to me too" are selfishly centering the conversation around themselves.
I do wish they'd gone for a simpler layout - this doesn't work on my phone at all, which is frustrating.
posted by Zumbador at 7:55 AM on September 27 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I got complaints and "can't there be a simple text version of this?" when I posted it elsewhere. Um, not really, apparently.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:28 AM on September 27 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:28 AM on September 27 [1 favorite]
I definitely hate the UX. A bunch of bubbles floating in the screen doesn't really invite me or tell me where to start. As I scan the screen desperately for an entry point I see the block of text on the bottom left with links and words like "recommend" and "how this site is organized" and I click those but those first two links are dead ends instead of bread crumbs to the next section.
Okay fine, so I just have to click on things? Flirting has always mystified me so let's go with that. A few paragraphs in: "The social initiation page discussed ways you might strike up a casual, friendly, non-flirty conversation with a stranger." Then why didn't you tell me to read that first? Would it really be too much trouble to at least give me some hints as to which sections are going to be fundamental and probably better starting points? Perhaps with something like numbers or a left to right or top to bottom layout?
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 11:30 AM on September 27
Okay fine, so I just have to click on things? Flirting has always mystified me so let's go with that. A few paragraphs in: "The social initiation page discussed ways you might strike up a casual, friendly, non-flirty conversation with a stranger." Then why didn't you tell me to read that first? Would it really be too much trouble to at least give me some hints as to which sections are going to be fundamental and probably better starting points? Perhaps with something like numbers or a left to right or top to bottom layout?
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 11:30 AM on September 27
There's no contact information on the site, and the Truman University link is generic. Dr Mary Shapiro's last entry on "rate my professor" was from 2022 at Truman. She doesn't appear in the department's faculty list currently. and I can find no information about her that doesn't mention Truman. So I'm not sure what happened to her or how to get in touch to provide feedback.
Honestly I'm a bit worried the site has been orphaned and should be scraped (and possibly republished in a more text-friendly format) before it disappears.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:30 AM on September 27
Honestly I'm a bit worried the site has been orphaned and should be scraped (and possibly republished in a more text-friendly format) before it disappears.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:30 AM on September 27
She retired. I think you're right that this is orphaned. Not sure if trying to look for any of the names on the "staff" page would help you, but it's an idea.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:45 AM on September 27
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:45 AM on September 27
For what it's worth, it's running the latest Wordpress 6.6.2 and the whole thing is hosted on a subdomain at Truman University. So it's probably not going to go away without someone specifically killing it.
The style is still crap, and if you disable CSS completely it's easy to see all of the text (or scrape it).
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:38 PM on September 27
The style is still crap, and if you disable CSS completely it's easy to see all of the text (or scrape it).
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:38 PM on September 27
> I feel like it would be kind of insulting to send it to any autistic person I know, without them explicitly asking for assistance in being more allistic in their conversation.
“I came across this website and it has a lot of solid information that I recognize from my own less-autistic experiences, but in an unusually straightforward tone and presentation that I’m not accustomed to seeing. Does this phrasing work extremely well for you? I don’t mean ‘you need this’, but if I can learn from their approach how I could communicate better with you it, then I’d really value that.”
Whichever answer they give you, you’ll learn more about someone you care about, and instead of accidentally pressuring them to be different for you, you’re asking if you yourself should be different for them. There could still be misunderstandings; handle them as straightforwardly as the site demonstrates. If they learn something from the site as well, cool. If you already know these phrasings in order to interact with them, cool.
“I saw this and the different style of communication from my own made me want to connect with you over it and learn more about how you see things” is an expression of love.
posted by Callisto Prime at 10:03 AM on September 28
“I came across this website and it has a lot of solid information that I recognize from my own less-autistic experiences, but in an unusually straightforward tone and presentation that I’m not accustomed to seeing. Does this phrasing work extremely well for you? I don’t mean ‘you need this’, but if I can learn from their approach how I could communicate better with you it, then I’d really value that.”
Whichever answer they give you, you’ll learn more about someone you care about, and instead of accidentally pressuring them to be different for you, you’re asking if you yourself should be different for them. There could still be misunderstandings; handle them as straightforwardly as the site demonstrates. If they learn something from the site as well, cool. If you already know these phrasings in order to interact with them, cool.
“I saw this and the different style of communication from my own made me want to connect with you over it and learn more about how you see things” is an expression of love.
posted by Callisto Prime at 10:03 AM on September 28
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Video demos of some of the behavior patterns would truly put the site over the top. I haven't scoured the entire site yet so it's possible there are some. There are some audio clips in the Sound section.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 1:35 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]