Electric vehicles have fed the national power grid during an outage
October 3, 2024 10:14 PM Subscribe
In a world-first, Australian electric vehicles have fed the national power grid during an outage. A new report reveals power from a small number of electric vehicle batteries in Canberra was used to respond to a blackout in Victoria, and experts believe this could be done on a much larger scale.
when we bought our house last year, we considered getting a home storage battery to complement our solar panel system, before noticing that the price per kWh was such that it a much better value to just get a brand new electric car and V2H system (with the added benefit of it being able to charge the car much faster than even a 200V home charger outlet would, and in winter when there isn't as much sunlight, we can at least charge the car overnight when electricity is cheaper, and then run off it during the day when electricity costs more)
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:49 PM on October 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:49 PM on October 3, 2024 [6 favorites]
Aussie YTer 'Engineering with Rosie' covers this too Electric Vehicle to Grid Technology Explained from three years ago. I guess the research in this video was done at ANU in Canberra, so I wonder if this is linked to work Bjorn Sturmberg was doing back then?
posted by phigmov at 11:56 PM on October 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by phigmov at 11:56 PM on October 3, 2024 [3 favorites]
As an aside, flabdablet, the BYD Seal looks a lot more attractive than anything Tesla makes! The relatively low cost of Chinese-made BYD, GWM, and MG vehicles (as well as Korean Hyundai and KIA ones) has put loads of them on the road in my (lower socio-economic, with high new- and first-generation immmigrant population) area, and all of them just look like a 21st-Century car, unlike the one or two Fash Focus units I've seen. Telsa make the Datsun Sunny of EVs, but charge a Porsche price for them...
posted by prismatic7 at 12:36 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by prismatic7 at 12:36 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
the useful thing about the BYD Seal as an energy storage solution, compared to the Tesla Powerwall, is that you can also drive it to the shops, which the Powerwall struggles with. It truly is Tesla's second-worst car, after the Cybertruck
posted by Merus at 1:13 AM on October 4, 2024 [17 favorites]
posted by Merus at 1:13 AM on October 4, 2024 [17 favorites]
California has recently been making noises about requiring cars sold in the state support V2G. Which is all well and good but V2G cars already exist and I've yet to meet anyone in the US who has figured out how to make it work as a source of power for their own home, much less the grid.
I wish California would concentrate more on changing the electrical code to make V2G setups easier. Also to change the relationships with the big power companies, particularly PG&E, to encourage consumers to add V2G resources. Instead we've gone backwards with solar adoption, rooftop sales are off some 75-90% since the NEM 3 rate plan. (On the good side, the new systems are incentivized to have batteries.)
Fellow Americans, did you know in Europe you can buy plug-in solar and feed something like 400W into your home panel without anything complicated at all? Just put the panel on your balcony and plug it into the wall socket, done. Something like that is unimaginable in the US. Instead we need elaborate systems with transfer switches and separate circuit breakers. Admittedly 400W is not a lot, maybe half to a third of typical power usage in a home, but the simplicity is really valuable. (Compare 5000-10,000W for a typical rooftop solar.)
posted by Nelson at 1:19 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
I wish California would concentrate more on changing the electrical code to make V2G setups easier. Also to change the relationships with the big power companies, particularly PG&E, to encourage consumers to add V2G resources. Instead we've gone backwards with solar adoption, rooftop sales are off some 75-90% since the NEM 3 rate plan. (On the good side, the new systems are incentivized to have batteries.)
Fellow Americans, did you know in Europe you can buy plug-in solar and feed something like 400W into your home panel without anything complicated at all? Just put the panel on your balcony and plug it into the wall socket, done. Something like that is unimaginable in the US. Instead we need elaborate systems with transfer switches and separate circuit breakers. Admittedly 400W is not a lot, maybe half to a third of typical power usage in a home, but the simplicity is really valuable. (Compare 5000-10,000W for a typical rooftop solar.)
posted by Nelson at 1:19 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
It's a very outside chance at this point, but if I come into the bit of money possibly on the table, I'm hoping to exchange my gas-guzzler daily driver for an electric car, so just this evening I was reading about "v2h" tech online.
During power outages I have a gas generator, which I plug into my house via a special sub-panel, allowing the swapping of five chosen circuits (of the tens actually in the house) from mains to generator whilst not putting power company workers at risk as they repair the fallen lines.
It's a miserable, noisy experience, and the 7500W of my genset is not enough to power my modestly sized house, really, in the winter, with the well running at times and the forced-air furnace blower and this computer. (Can't even imagine if the furnace heater or water heater were also electric!) Starting the microwave (1500W), you can hear the generator labor.
So the idea of having a car which could power the house for a bit sounds exciting. Of course, there would be many $thousands needed to integrate the expensive special charger into the house circuitry, so I would probably skip it in any case, and not sure the car I'm considering would support it. But nice concept to think about!
posted by maxwelton at 2:08 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
During power outages I have a gas generator, which I plug into my house via a special sub-panel, allowing the swapping of five chosen circuits (of the tens actually in the house) from mains to generator whilst not putting power company workers at risk as they repair the fallen lines.
It's a miserable, noisy experience, and the 7500W of my genset is not enough to power my modestly sized house, really, in the winter, with the well running at times and the forced-air furnace blower and this computer. (Can't even imagine if the furnace heater or water heater were also electric!) Starting the microwave (1500W), you can hear the generator labor.
So the idea of having a car which could power the house for a bit sounds exciting. Of course, there would be many $thousands needed to integrate the expensive special charger into the house circuitry, so I would probably skip it in any case, and not sure the car I'm considering would support it. But nice concept to think about!
posted by maxwelton at 2:08 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
It seems there's some stress between the thoughts "I want my car charged with full range at the beginning of the day" and "I'm going to charge the car from solar during the day and discharge it over night to run the house".
(As an electric car owner) I've always been a bit confused about how people resolve this dichotomy, seems like a new form of "range anxiety" - anyone got any ideas?
posted by mbo at 2:15 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
(As an electric car owner) I've always been a bit confused about how people resolve this dichotomy, seems like a new form of "range anxiety" - anyone got any ideas?
posted by mbo at 2:15 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
did you know in Europe you can buy plug-in solar and feed something like 400W into your home panel without anything complicated at all?
That's not Europe, that's just Germany. But I do love the idea and I hope it spreads.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:08 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
That's not Europe, that's just Germany. But I do love the idea and I hope it spreads.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:08 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
Are the batteries in electric cars not also subject to a fixed number of charging cycles before losing a significant percentage of their capacity like the li-ion batteries in all our devices? With the prohibitively expensive cost of replacing batteries in electric cars I'd worry about these schemes prematurely degrading the batteries in vehicles, but surely some smart person has figured this out?
posted by St. Oops at 3:15 AM on October 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by St. Oops at 3:15 AM on October 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
im only in it for the inevitable battery backlash in 20 years
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 3:51 AM on October 4, 2024
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 3:51 AM on October 4, 2024
Related: Electric grid battery storage via retired electric car battery packs
Old car battery packs still have useful energy storage ability, even though they were too worn out to stay in the car. This company puts them on racks, as-is, hooking up monitoring and control to allow individual packs to charge and discharge at reasonable rates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKSmIqGvZR4&t=328s
From the interesting youtube channel by Matt Ferrell. He has a new "net zero" house with all kinds of effective technology. He also covers new experimental battery tech -- some of those may be impractical, but others look very promising.
posted by jjj606 at 4:03 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
Old car battery packs still have useful energy storage ability, even though they were too worn out to stay in the car. This company puts them on racks, as-is, hooking up monitoring and control to allow individual packs to charge and discharge at reasonable rates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKSmIqGvZR4&t=328s
From the interesting youtube channel by Matt Ferrell. He has a new "net zero" house with all kinds of effective technology. He also covers new experimental battery tech -- some of those may be impractical, but others look very promising.
posted by jjj606 at 4:03 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
From the interesting youtube channel by Matt Ferrell.
He also has an interesting video about Sand Batteries - and I would recommend thinking about this along the same lines as V2G. A combination of solar panels, heat pumps and a container of (ordinary) sand - can achieve some remarkable things. The key measure is "Round Trip Efficiency" - that would be about 70% with a lead acid battery, around 90% with Lithium Ion - and at least 90% with thermal storage.
posted by rongorongo at 4:29 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
He also has an interesting video about Sand Batteries - and I would recommend thinking about this along the same lines as V2G. A combination of solar panels, heat pumps and a container of (ordinary) sand - can achieve some remarkable things. The key measure is "Round Trip Efficiency" - that would be about 70% with a lead acid battery, around 90% with Lithium Ion - and at least 90% with thermal storage.
posted by rongorongo at 4:29 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
It's a miserable, noisy experience, and the 7500W of my genset is not enough to power my modestly sized house, really, in the winter, with the well running at times and the forced-air furnace blower and this computer. (Can't even imagine if the furnace heater or water heater were also electric!) Starting the microwave (1500W), you can hear the generator labor.
A few kWh of battery storage can dramatically improve your experience here. Loads run from battery, as battery gets depleted you start generator for an hour. Generator is happier because you can run it at its most efficient output, it sees a constant load, and doesn't have to run all the time. Your electronics are happier because they get a better AC waveform. You and your neighbors are happier because the generator is running less and you're using less fuel.
posted by wierdo at 5:39 AM on October 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
A few kWh of battery storage can dramatically improve your experience here. Loads run from battery, as battery gets depleted you start generator for an hour. Generator is happier because you can run it at its most efficient output, it sees a constant load, and doesn't have to run all the time. Your electronics are happier because they get a better AC waveform. You and your neighbors are happier because the generator is running less and you're using less fuel.
posted by wierdo at 5:39 AM on October 4, 2024 [7 favorites]
Are the batteries in electric cars not also subject to a fixed number of charging cycles before losing a significant percentage of their capacity like the li-ion batteries
I should have included this in my previous comment, but cycle life is dramatically improved by not using the very ends of the charge curve. If your car battery is sitting at 80%, gets discharged to 60%, and charges back up to 80% that's more like a hundredth of a cycle worth of wear than a fifth.
Charging above 90% and discharging below about 10% is where most of the wear comes from, assuming you are keeping the charge and discharge rates reasonable so as not to generate excess heat.
posted by wierdo at 5:43 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
I should have included this in my previous comment, but cycle life is dramatically improved by not using the very ends of the charge curve. If your car battery is sitting at 80%, gets discharged to 60%, and charges back up to 80% that's more like a hundredth of a cycle worth of wear than a fifth.
Charging above 90% and discharging below about 10% is where most of the wear comes from, assuming you are keeping the charge and discharge rates reasonable so as not to generate excess heat.
posted by wierdo at 5:43 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
Regarding range anxiety—I have never understood this. The average daily commute is half an hour. You are never going to run out of charge on a day to day basis if you plug in every night. Nobody stresses out about riding a gas tank below 1/4 full, and they still need to be filled just the same. I used to drive a full electric Honda clarity which managed a 70 mile range. Obviously it wouldn’t work for a road trip but over four years the closest I came was coming home with 5 miles range after running too many errands after work. Now if my model 3 has 70 miles left on the battery I think “uh oh” and plug it in immediately. Range anxiety is an entirely fake idea created by big oil to scare you off electric.
(Disclaimer: I didn’t know Elon was a monster when I bought the Tesla, I’ll never buy one again, I’m sorry)
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 5:54 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
(Disclaimer: I didn’t know Elon was a monster when I bought the Tesla, I’ll never buy one again, I’m sorry)
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 5:54 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
I'm the living embodiment of Nelson's above comment . . .
I was chuffed to finally get rooftop solar in early 2022; I'm pretty frugal so didn't see the need to go with Enphase's "sunlight backup" . . . here's a price comparison of no batteries or islanding (i.e. no System controller that allow the rooftop panels to generate what it can if/when the grid goes down) since this capability added several thousand to the cost and for that I figured I could wait a few years and do some DIY stuff in the garage.
PG&E dropped for 4 hours one morning last month and that really pissed me off . . . I have a 0.8kWh portable power thingy I use to power a camping cooler in my Tesla for keeping things cold when I'm out shopping; it can power my fridge and freezer for 8 hours or so but I figured it was time to get something more resilient: its bigger brother with 1.5X the battery cells that I'm now using as a UPS for my freezer 24/7.
Last week's devastation in NC reminded me that in a sustained grid outage I'd feel pretty stupid having 9kW on the roof but no way to get power, so I ordered 2 250W panels that I can hopefully use to keep these two portable power thingies charged up each day.
Enphase has done a lot to make solar more user-friendly than it was 20 years ago, but there's still a "last-mile" problem with V2X.
They pre-announced a garage V2X interface almost two years ago now but it's been delayed.
I think what I've cobbled together for ~$1500 is sufficient for disaster resilience . . . I'd have to go into "camp mode" with it, vs. spending $10,000 - $20,000 for the requisites to be able to sustain power outages with much less or zero disruption . . . but if power goes out for weeks I'll have more problems than home power.
It's weird that the public utilities haven't arsed themselves to create customer-facing hardware to facilitate all of this. I guess being regulated monopolies it's a sensitive subject.
posted by torokunai at 5:57 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
I was chuffed to finally get rooftop solar in early 2022; I'm pretty frugal so didn't see the need to go with Enphase's "sunlight backup" . . . here's a price comparison of no batteries or islanding (i.e. no System controller that allow the rooftop panels to generate what it can if/when the grid goes down) since this capability added several thousand to the cost and for that I figured I could wait a few years and do some DIY stuff in the garage.
PG&E dropped for 4 hours one morning last month and that really pissed me off . . . I have a 0.8kWh portable power thingy I use to power a camping cooler in my Tesla for keeping things cold when I'm out shopping; it can power my fridge and freezer for 8 hours or so but I figured it was time to get something more resilient: its bigger brother with 1.5X the battery cells that I'm now using as a UPS for my freezer 24/7.
Last week's devastation in NC reminded me that in a sustained grid outage I'd feel pretty stupid having 9kW on the roof but no way to get power, so I ordered 2 250W panels that I can hopefully use to keep these two portable power thingies charged up each day.
Enphase has done a lot to make solar more user-friendly than it was 20 years ago, but there's still a "last-mile" problem with V2X.
They pre-announced a garage V2X interface almost two years ago now but it's been delayed.
I think what I've cobbled together for ~$1500 is sufficient for disaster resilience . . . I'd have to go into "camp mode" with it, vs. spending $10,000 - $20,000 for the requisites to be able to sustain power outages with much less or zero disruption . . . but if power goes out for weeks I'll have more problems than home power.
It's weird that the public utilities haven't arsed themselves to create customer-facing hardware to facilitate all of this. I guess being regulated monopolies it's a sensitive subject.
posted by torokunai at 5:57 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
Manifesting this into the world with this comment I just need a PHEV SUV with AWD that has V2H/V2G, and has decent performance in the snow / can live in well below freezing snow conditions for 5 months a year and baking dry heat for 3-4 months.
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is so very very close but reports of actual V2H usage are basically non-existent.
I swear to god if Subaru did it with the Outback or maybe an Ascent size vehicle you'd be able to power all of Utah and possibly the entire Mountain West every time Rocky Mountain Power has a whoopsie.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:14 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is so very very close but reports of actual V2H usage are basically non-existent.
I swear to god if Subaru did it with the Outback or maybe an Ascent size vehicle you'd be able to power all of Utah and possibly the entire Mountain West every time Rocky Mountain Power has a whoopsie.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:14 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
It shouldn't only be experts who can see the potential of V2G. It should be obvious to anybody who has noticed that the world's most widely recognized home battery, the Tesla Powerwall,
Breaktime's over, back on my hobby horse.
People, if you want power storage for your home, get a system that's mounted on wheels so it can be pushed away from the house if need be.
Tesla makes those. (As well as Ford, GM, Honda, Kia...)
posted by ocschwar at 6:29 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
Breaktime's over, back on my hobby horse.
People, if you want power storage for your home, get a system that's mounted on wheels so it can be pushed away from the house if need be.
Tesla makes those. (As well as Ford, GM, Honda, Kia...)
posted by ocschwar at 6:29 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
Regarding range anxiety—I have never understood this.
Its not a problem for city dwellers, but if you live in the (non-coastal) west, it's real. Its very easy to be 100+ miles from a charger and the closest one not even on your route. This is changing, but just like other rural infrastructure, it's slow and expensive.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:47 AM on October 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
Its not a problem for city dwellers, but if you live in the (non-coastal) west, it's real. Its very easy to be 100+ miles from a charger and the closest one not even on your route. This is changing, but just like other rural infrastructure, it's slow and expensive.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:47 AM on October 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
It seems there's some stress between the thoughts "I want my car charged with full range at the beginning of the day" and "I'm going to charge the car from solar during the day and discharge it over night to run the house".
Because you're not discharging it overnight. You're using it on the shoulders. Because of solar there are two daily peaks in most grids: 8am and 7pm. The evening peak is simple: If you're going to be at home at 6pm your car can discharge what's left from the commute and then recharge overnight while the base load that can't be turned off (hopefully nuclear + wind) is still going.
The US should really have its fleet of school buses electrified with V2G. It's criminal that we have half a million school buses in the country and if we stuffed 100kWh battery packs into them we could straight up have a 50GWh virtual power plant along with less costs for cash strapped school districts. This will be especially handy during summer when school is out and a school bus VPP would be right there powering all those ACs and recharging overnight.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:11 AM on October 4, 2024 [11 favorites]
Because you're not discharging it overnight. You're using it on the shoulders. Because of solar there are two daily peaks in most grids: 8am and 7pm. The evening peak is simple: If you're going to be at home at 6pm your car can discharge what's left from the commute and then recharge overnight while the base load that can't be turned off (hopefully nuclear + wind) is still going.
The US should really have its fleet of school buses electrified with V2G. It's criminal that we have half a million school buses in the country and if we stuffed 100kWh battery packs into them we could straight up have a 50GWh virtual power plant along with less costs for cash strapped school districts. This will be especially handy during summer when school is out and a school bus VPP would be right there powering all those ACs and recharging overnight.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:11 AM on October 4, 2024 [11 favorites]
Yeah them BYD buses are really sweet. Every short route diesel bus on the north american continent should be pushed into a shredder. There's just no need.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:15 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:15 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
Its not a problem for city dwellers, but if you live in the (non-coastal) west, it's real. Its very easy to be 100+ miles from a charger and the closest one not even on your route.
Wyoming enters the chat to nod in agreement. You can be a very *long* way from a charger - even on the I-80. And in winter…..hope that battery is still efficient at -20f / - 28c.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:55 AM on October 4, 2024
Wyoming enters the chat to nod in agreement. You can be a very *long* way from a charger - even on the I-80. And in winter…..hope that battery is still efficient at -20f / - 28c.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:55 AM on October 4, 2024
Wyoming enters the chat to nod in agreement. You can be a very *long* way from a charger - even on the I-80. And in winter…..hope that battery is still efficient at -20f / - 28c.
It's 2024. At this point I-80, along with every other I-X0 and I-X5 should just have a catenary system on the right lane the entire length of the route for EV and truck charging. How much longer do we need to keep burning things for energy like freaking cavepeople? We can't even get train lines electrified in this country.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:21 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
It's 2024. At this point I-80, along with every other I-X0 and I-X5 should just have a catenary system on the right lane the entire length of the route for EV and truck charging. How much longer do we need to keep burning things for energy like freaking cavepeople? We can't even get train lines electrified in this country.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:21 AM on October 4, 2024 [4 favorites]
This is already a thing in places buying electric buses: Electric school buses serve as mini power plants during the summer
posted by hydropsyche at 9:23 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 9:23 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
We got an Enphase battery as part of our solar lease through Georgia BRIGHT and have absolutely no complaints about anything so far. We are not electrical engineers, and things in the US are just not yet setup to make the vehicle battery thing easy to use yet. Our town experiences brief power outages on a regular basis (at least once a week for apparently no reason except we live in a lower income area without a lot of white people and Georgia Power doesn't think we matter very much), and the battery has been awesome in those situations. Even though we didn't lose power in Helene, we experience tropical storms, severe thunderstorms, and ice storms often enough that it feels like a good investment. Also, fuck Georgia Power. Anything we can do to take money away from them is good.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:32 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 9:32 AM on October 4, 2024 [6 favorites]
One more sand battery video from Two Bit Da Vinci - he points out that we can covert spare electrical energy into thermal energy very efficiently - and that about 2/3 of the energy we use in the home is in heating (or cooling) - so a combination of direct thermal storage and use - with a battery to deal with pure electrical storage and use - would be a good idea. The whole thing would work best at a local grid/ residential heating scale.
posted by rongorongo at 10:04 AM on October 4, 2024
posted by rongorongo at 10:04 AM on October 4, 2024
Something like that is unimaginable in the US. Instead we need elaborate systems with transfer switches and separate circuit breakers.
That's so you don't fry an electrician or a lineman. I just had solar installed on my house, and there's now a bunch of warning labels on the master service saying "this house produces power, disconnect if you need to work on it."
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:06 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
That's so you don't fry an electrician or a lineman. I just had solar installed on my house, and there's now a bunch of warning labels on the master service saying "this house produces power, disconnect if you need to work on it."
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:06 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
They do sell stand-alone solar panels and very small systems for RVs and camping in the US - you do have to cobble a bit together to get them to work for homes, but it's not dramatically expensive or difficult, no more expensive than a gas generator.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:17 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:17 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
I gotta assume that German linemen are neither shockproof nor indifferent to survival, so there would seem to be an easier solution.
posted by clew at 10:30 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 10:30 AM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
I gotta assume that German linemen are neither shockproof nor indifferent to survival, so there would seem to be an easier solution.
I would imagine that German regulations on permanently installed PV arrays are similar, requiring the system to be able to be disconnected. And the reality is that you can connect solar panels into your house via plug, but they need to follow rules, because suicide cords (cables with two male ends) are illegal for a very good reason, hinted with the name.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
I would imagine that German regulations on permanently installed PV arrays are similar, requiring the system to be able to be disconnected. And the reality is that you can connect solar panels into your house via plug, but they need to follow rules, because suicide cords (cables with two male ends) are illegal for a very good reason, hinted with the name.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2024 [3 favorites]
Telsa make the Datsun Sunny of EVs, but charge a Porsche price for them
Not that I expect MetaFilter.com to be correct when talking about cars, but Tesla and Porsche have exactly one model that overlaps in price (No, that under $100k Macan you are about to respond with doesn't actually exist for sale, and no one that isn't a Porsche dealer needing a loaner would buy if it did exist). Teslas are cheap, in both price and especially quality, compared to anything Porsche is putting out.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:14 AM on October 4, 2024
Not that I expect MetaFilter.com to be correct when talking about cars, but Tesla and Porsche have exactly one model that overlaps in price (No, that under $100k Macan you are about to respond with doesn't actually exist for sale, and no one that isn't a Porsche dealer needing a loaner would buy if it did exist). Teslas are cheap, in both price and especially quality, compared to anything Porsche is putting out.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:14 AM on October 4, 2024
Something like that is unimaginable in the US. Instead we need elaborate systems with transfer switches and separate circuit breakers..
400W is one quarter to one third of one hair dyer or toaster oven. It's "unimaginable" because It would take weeks for the cost savings of charging your phone or running a few lights (about all these panels are good for) to cover buying that panel from Amazon in the first place.
Also, ask your local fire inspector what charred human bodies smell like. You'll soon come to appreciate those "elaborate" systems because those roof installs aren't pull in 400W.
400W is also one quarter of one hair dryer.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2024
400W is one quarter to one third of one hair dyer or toaster oven. It's "unimaginable" because It would take weeks for the cost savings of charging your phone or running a few lights (about all these panels are good for) to cover buying that panel from Amazon in the first place.
Also, ask your local fire inspector what charred human bodies smell like. You'll soon come to appreciate those "elaborate" systems because those roof installs aren't pull in 400W.
400W is also one quarter of one hair dryer.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:24 AM on October 4, 2024
400W is infinitely better than 0W
I added it because until I lose net metering, batteries don’t pencil out for me
posted by torokunai at 11:28 AM on October 4, 2024
I added it because until I lose net metering, batteries don’t pencil out for me
posted by torokunai at 11:28 AM on October 4, 2024
400W at current electricity prices is 50 cents an hour if you're lucky, and if the panel gets six hours of that a day that's three bucks a day, maybe a hundred bucks a month, maybe a thousand dollars a year.
I mean, don't piss on 400W is what I'm saying. Electricity will run up the piss and give you a hell of a shock.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:29 AM on October 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
I mean, don't piss on 400W is what I'm saying. Electricity will run up the piss and give you a hell of a shock.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:29 AM on October 4, 2024 [2 favorites]
Teslas are cheap, in both price and especially quality, compared to anything Porsche is putting out.
Tesla vs Porsche retail prices aren't really comparable, because like 75% of new Porsches sold in the US are leased, whereas Tesla doesn't have a strong leasing arm, so the price for a Porsche lease and a Tesla purchase are extremely comparable. Also Tesla is a top 10 in sales car, Porsche doesn't have any models with sales comparable to that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:56 AM on October 4, 2024
Tesla vs Porsche retail prices aren't really comparable, because like 75% of new Porsches sold in the US are leased, whereas Tesla doesn't have a strong leasing arm, so the price for a Porsche lease and a Tesla purchase are extremely comparable. Also Tesla is a top 10 in sales car, Porsche doesn't have any models with sales comparable to that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:56 AM on October 4, 2024
So I've watch the sand battery videos, and they're all like "uh, converting stored heat back to electricity is hard'. You're darn right it is. The efficiencies are crap. Might as well go all solar roads again.
Your distributed ev power grid relies on a local distribution network. If a storm has taken it out, it's all NBG. Similarly, the maintenance of robust electrical distribution is, by necessity, very heavily regulated. Without regulation, you get stuff like Enron and ERCOT happening. You don't want that.
posted by scruss at 12:33 PM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
Your distributed ev power grid relies on a local distribution network. If a storm has taken it out, it's all NBG. Similarly, the maintenance of robust electrical distribution is, by necessity, very heavily regulated. Without regulation, you get stuff like Enron and ERCOT happening. You don't want that.
posted by scruss at 12:33 PM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
Speaking of ERCOT, the federal government is finally going to tie it into the rest of the country's power grid.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
yeah, storing heat to use it as heat is great: as long as you're really close by. It doesn't transmit well
posted by scruss at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2024
posted by scruss at 7:00 PM on October 4, 2024
storing heat to use it as heat is great: as long as you're really close by.
Technology Connections did a whole video about using a water heater as a heat battery.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:50 PM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
Technology Connections did a whole video about using a water heater as a heat battery.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:50 PM on October 4, 2024 [1 favorite]
the useful thing about the BYD Seal as an energy storage solution, compared to the Tesla Powerwall, is that you can also drive it to the shops
Plus, its battery chemistry is lithium iron phosphate, so it will piss upon nickel-manganese-cobalt Powerwalls from a great height on service life as well (this year's Powerwall 3 has finally caught up and is also LFP-based).
posted by flabdablet at 11:07 PM on October 4, 2024
Plus, its battery chemistry is lithium iron phosphate, so it will piss upon nickel-manganese-cobalt Powerwalls from a great height on service life as well (this year's Powerwall 3 has finally caught up and is also LFP-based).
posted by flabdablet at 11:07 PM on October 4, 2024
In re the Tesla vs Porsche pricing, I literally don't care about the US. I'm in Australia, TFA is from Australia, and they are both imported vehicles here. And yes, that does mean the price is equivalent.
Here's an amazing thing: sometimes the US is different to the rest of the world.
posted by prismatic7 at 4:47 AM on October 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Here's an amazing thing: sometimes the US is different to the rest of the world.
posted by prismatic7 at 4:47 AM on October 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
...which, given that everybody knows Columbus proved that the world begins and ends at the East and West Coasts, really is astonishing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 8:24 PM on October 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
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So it already costs significantly more to provision a six-apartment block with a Powerwall per apartment than with a new battery that you can drive into the basement carpark. Market size considerations will see the cost of EVs continue to drop faster than that of stationary storage for quite some while yet. And as I mentioned in cpbc's other recent thread, an end-of-automotive-life used battery pack already leaves the Powerwall totally in the dust on a price/performance basis. Won't be too long before whole used vehicles are getting second-lifed that way.
The fossil fuel lobby loves to piss and moan about how much load the grid will be under as EV uptake increases, but the main effect is going to be the creation of a stupendously massive distributed battery facility that might plausibly end up being all the storage we actually need.
As the laptop computer and mobile phone experience shows, moving energy storage out past the edge of the grid and putting it as close as possible to the point of end use has convenience benefits as well as economic ones. In a world where every electric appliance came with batteries inbuilt as standard, we wouldn't actually need an uninterrupted grid supply; simply making a daily charging cycle massively cheap and reliably available would do quite nicely.
Putting them in every car is a good start.
posted by flabdablet at 11:16 PM on October 3, 2024 [20 favorites]