Can you Venmo me $3.74 for the sip of my drink you took?
October 12, 2024 12:22 PM Subscribe
Altruism, or doing nice things for others, is “something very deeply ingrained in our psyche,” says Ghodsee. “But the minute you introduce economics into it, you actually diminish the experience of that friendship,” she says. According to her, the expectation of ‘reciprocity’ can do more harm than good. “You do favours so at some future moment when you’re in need, that person will return the favour, right? This is the reason we call friends ‘toxic’, because there are some people who take, take, take, and then never give back,” she explains. While of course it’s fair (and sensible) to take a step back from a relationship if you feel as if it’s draining you, it’s generally a good idea to resist the temptation to ‘keep score’ with your closest friends. from Is frugality ruining our friendships? [Dazed]
This is wild. My friends and I do shit for each other all the time. We keep track of big money on group trips and stuff but on the day to day, it's "I'll buy you a beer next time" or whatever. We all tend to feed each other pets when we're out of town and take food by when people are feeling down/sick/etc. I have bailed on picking someone up from the airport before, but I paid for their Uber because I knew they didn't have any cash at the time.
It's worth noting that the only person in our greater friend group who regularly asked to be reimburesed down to the cent for everything is 1) a generationally rich person and 2) kind of a bummer.
posted by thivaia at 12:55 PM on October 12 [15 favorites]
It's worth noting that the only person in our greater friend group who regularly asked to be reimburesed down to the cent for everything is 1) a generationally rich person and 2) kind of a bummer.
posted by thivaia at 12:55 PM on October 12 [15 favorites]
You do favours so at some future moment when you’re in need, that person will return the favour, right?
Absolutely not, my god.
posted by mhoye at 12:58 PM on October 12 [29 favorites]
Absolutely not, my god.
posted by mhoye at 12:58 PM on October 12 [29 favorites]
I mean, I abhor the thought that I do people favors in order to get that favor returned in the future, but on the flip side of that, I do have a fear of being taken advantage of. Or, really, a fear that what I thought was a real friendship was only a transactional friendship based on the favors they needed. I don't need someone to drive me to the airport, but maybe I need the proof that somebody likes me enough to drive me to the airport, rather than just calling me when they need a ride to the airport.
My book club started having a discussion, after reading a bell hooks book, that we all wanted a greater sense of community in our lives, and we all were generally happy and grateful to have opportunities to do things for people we liked, but - none of us wanted to ask for help. I think the possibility of being ignored feels too vulnerable. It is much much easier to hire an Uber or a petsitter on Rover than to be vulnerable like that (even if you don't have a ton of disposable cash).
That said, I'm very grateful to be distant from the cultural milieu where it's acceptable to invite someone over for a dinner party and then send them a Venmo request. Absolutely heartless behavior.
(If you can't afford to host, fine! Do a potluck, do takeout and split the bill in whatever way feels fair, I don't even hate asking people to chip in for ingredients as long as you don't surprise people with the bill at the end. But the least generous people are the ones who can afford to be generous.)
posted by Jeanne at 1:12 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
My book club started having a discussion, after reading a bell hooks book, that we all wanted a greater sense of community in our lives, and we all were generally happy and grateful to have opportunities to do things for people we liked, but - none of us wanted to ask for help. I think the possibility of being ignored feels too vulnerable. It is much much easier to hire an Uber or a petsitter on Rover than to be vulnerable like that (even if you don't have a ton of disposable cash).
That said, I'm very grateful to be distant from the cultural milieu where it's acceptable to invite someone over for a dinner party and then send them a Venmo request. Absolutely heartless behavior.
(If you can't afford to host, fine! Do a potluck, do takeout and split the bill in whatever way feels fair, I don't even hate asking people to chip in for ingredients as long as you don't surprise people with the bill at the end. But the least generous people are the ones who can afford to be generous.)
posted by Jeanne at 1:12 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
For perspective, I spent a lot of time living on or near college campuses in cooperative-type housing arrangements, back in the days before the Internet had its current form. Let alone the emergence of payment apps. And in those days some obligations were understood up front to be sacrosanct, like one's share of the rent or heat. But when it came to the ebb and flow of daily living, the healthiest places to live were ones where everybody tacitly agreed to not keep too close track of incidentals. Also in those days, even, the people who insisted on doing that were a lot more corrosive (and more common) than people who would take and take and take without giving. I'm not sure I ever really encountered one of the latter, but I know of a couple of households broken up by one of the former.
So, anyway. I guess I'm trying to suggest that the thing TFA sees is not a product of current circumstances, or not exclusively.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:15 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
So, anyway. I guess I'm trying to suggest that the thing TFA sees is not a product of current circumstances, or not exclusively.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:15 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
I mean, I've seen this more amongst folks way younger than me. I'm nearly 50 and if I go out with friends, one of us will pick up the tab. The other person will pick up the tab next time. I don't drink anymore so this mostly applies to: coffee, movie tickets, movie refreshments, the occasional small venue concert ticket.
We don't have Venmo in Canada so I imagine Canadian youth have an app besides Interact that I don't know about.
posted by Kitteh at 1:17 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
We don't have Venmo in Canada so I imagine Canadian youth have an app besides Interact that I don't know about.
posted by Kitteh at 1:17 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
American academic Dan Areily parked a moving truck containing a large sofa next to a university campus in Massachusetts
Why does that name sound familiar to me? Oh, right, he's that guy who's been accused of fabricating data multiple times.
This article feels extremely thin to me. It cites (1) a random 27 year old Londoner, (2) a twitter post from a youtuber, (3) Kristen Ghodsee who thinks we do favors for favors, (4) a random 28 year old from Newcastle, (5) a handful of tweets from other twitter accounts I guess(?), and (6) Dan Ariely who has some credibility issues as mentioned above. Assuming that neither of the 20-somethings are friends(-of-friends) of the author, mostly this just proves that maybe it's not that hard to find young people who are kind of transactional. Which makes more sense if money is tight, though I think that maybe if the author and her friends "have meticulous Notes app lists detailing every last one of our petty debts" maybe she needs to find some new friends. Good lord, meticulously tracking petty debts is more trouble than it's worth.
Surely there is a spectrum among humans vis-a-vis the willingness to keep track of debts (either with actual records or just sort of devoting some mental real estate to it), but it turns out you can just choose not to be friends with the ones whose degree of ledger-keeping is not to your taste.
posted by axiom at 1:23 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
Why does that name sound familiar to me? Oh, right, he's that guy who's been accused of fabricating data multiple times.
This article feels extremely thin to me. It cites (1) a random 27 year old Londoner, (2) a twitter post from a youtuber, (3) Kristen Ghodsee who thinks we do favors for favors, (4) a random 28 year old from Newcastle, (5) a handful of tweets from other twitter accounts I guess(?), and (6) Dan Ariely who has some credibility issues as mentioned above. Assuming that neither of the 20-somethings are friends(-of-friends) of the author, mostly this just proves that maybe it's not that hard to find young people who are kind of transactional. Which makes more sense if money is tight, though I think that maybe if the author and her friends "have meticulous Notes app lists detailing every last one of our petty debts" maybe she needs to find some new friends. Good lord, meticulously tracking petty debts is more trouble than it's worth.
Surely there is a spectrum among humans vis-a-vis the willingness to keep track of debts (either with actual records or just sort of devoting some mental real estate to it), but it turns out you can just choose not to be friends with the ones whose degree of ledger-keeping is not to your taste.
posted by axiom at 1:23 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
I've joked that my friend and I just keep passing the same $40 back and forth on Venmo.
We'll split the bill but we're not obsessive about who paid what and mostly split down the middle-ish (unless, say, one of us orders more drinks than the other or whatever).
But we're adults with decent paying jobs and no children. We can afford it.
posted by edencosmic at 1:25 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
We'll split the bill but we're not obsessive about who paid what and mostly split down the middle-ish (unless, say, one of us orders more drinks than the other or whatever).
But we're adults with decent paying jobs and no children. We can afford it.
posted by edencosmic at 1:25 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
Weirdly my Mom and Stepfather are the most transitional people I know. They will split every meal and argue over who paid for which grandkids. It’s so over the top that me paying for lunch once (they drove two hours to visit my kid at a daycare event) threw off the accounting and caused a problem.
At the same time though they both had a previous spouses that took advantage of them financially, this is what they need to do to feel safe. I would still like to pay for lunch once in a while though!
posted by lepus at 1:42 PM on October 12 [4 favorites]
At the same time though they both had a previous spouses that took advantage of them financially, this is what they need to do to feel safe. I would still like to pay for lunch once in a while though!
posted by lepus at 1:42 PM on October 12 [4 favorites]
Is it possible that people just like each other much less than they used to?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:49 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:49 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
This is my family
I am thier son.
They are always fighting
(over grandma olive dish and silver fork)
I am totally done.
posted by clavdivs at 2:05 PM on October 12 [6 favorites]
I am thier son.
They are always fighting
(over grandma olive dish and silver fork)
I am totally done.
posted by clavdivs at 2:05 PM on October 12 [6 favorites]
Is this an appropriate moment to say that the gift economy has always been bigger than the measured and monetized economy?
Remember when we started measuring "Friends" around 2012, and now democracy is dying?
Venmo needs a timed auto delete function, like snapchat
posted by eustatic at 2:22 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
Remember when we started measuring "Friends" around 2012, and now democracy is dying?
Venmo needs a timed auto delete function, like snapchat
posted by eustatic at 2:22 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
Conversely, this Venmo shit could be an opportunity to te-establish the long-forgotten tradition of Jubilee!
May all debts be absolved by holy decree; for the sin of usury weighs heavily upon poor people in our culture
posted by eustatic at 2:25 PM on October 12 [8 favorites]
May all debts be absolved by holy decree; for the sin of usury weighs heavily upon poor people in our culture
posted by eustatic at 2:25 PM on October 12 [8 favorites]
You do favours so at some future moment when you’re in need, that person will return the favour, right?
This is like doing conversation so that when the other person is done, it’s your turn to talk.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:41 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
This is like doing conversation so that when the other person is done, it’s your turn to talk.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:41 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
When it comes to lending money to friends and/or family, I have two rules, depending on if it's a small amount or a big amount.
If it's a small amount, the money is given with no expectation of reprocicity. Life's too fucking short to keep a ledger of this shit.
Now, if it's a big amount (like we're talking a five digit loan or better) - then we do that by the book, with actual legal documents drawn up. Because in that case, doing it by the book protects both of us, and helps preserve the relationship. When me and my wife were looking for a house, my father offered to sell us his, and had we taken the offer (we didn't, for a few reasons), we would have set up a formal contract to do so, for this exact reason.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:43 PM on October 12 [7 favorites]
If it's a small amount, the money is given with no expectation of reprocicity. Life's too fucking short to keep a ledger of this shit.
Now, if it's a big amount (like we're talking a five digit loan or better) - then we do that by the book, with actual legal documents drawn up. Because in that case, doing it by the book protects both of us, and helps preserve the relationship. When me and my wife were looking for a house, my father offered to sell us his, and had we taken the offer (we didn't, for a few reasons), we would have set up a formal contract to do so, for this exact reason.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:43 PM on October 12 [7 favorites]
You do favours so at some future moment when you’re in need, that person will return the favour, right?
Good lord, no. I can’t begin to imagine living such an empty, strictly transactional life. It goes against everything I believe.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:57 PM on October 12 [6 favorites]
Good lord, no. I can’t begin to imagine living such an empty, strictly transactional life. It goes against everything I believe.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:57 PM on October 12 [6 favorites]
One of my friends said that when he was broke, the best thing he could do is feed people. Those people never reciprocated, but third parties saw him do it and helped him.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:00 PM on October 12 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:00 PM on October 12 [2 favorites]
This is just so foreign to my experience. Everyone I've ever called a friend would probably rather throw their phone into a river instead of send a Venmo request for the price of a beer they bought you.
The idea that this is happening because people are tired and broke just doesn't make sense to me, either, because I've spent a lot of time around tired, broke, and busy people. It sounds more like a breakdown of friendship and community than anything else - and I wonder how much this is actually a real trend, and if it is a real trend, how much it's confined to particular social (media) circles.
I vaguely remember that uber post, I only saw it through people dunking on it.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:04 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
The idea that this is happening because people are tired and broke just doesn't make sense to me, either, because I've spent a lot of time around tired, broke, and busy people. It sounds more like a breakdown of friendship and community than anything else - and I wonder how much this is actually a real trend, and if it is a real trend, how much it's confined to particular social (media) circles.
I vaguely remember that uber post, I only saw it through people dunking on it.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:04 PM on October 12 [9 favorites]
It's worth noting that the only person in our greater friend group who regularly asked to be reimburesed down to the cent for everything is 1) a generationally rich person and 2) kind of a bummer.
Also probably very, very afraid that someone will befriend them for access to their money.
posted by NotAYakk at 3:24 PM on October 12 [4 favorites]
Also probably very, very afraid that someone will befriend them for access to their money.
posted by NotAYakk at 3:24 PM on October 12 [4 favorites]
I'll also pick you up from the airport if my schedule allows.
I contribute to GoFundMes for friends, of course, but also friends of friends.
I do tend to agree that the transactional nature points to a lack of a sense of community, and I get that. Post-Covid, I've really struggled with where mine is. But because it's smaller, that means I'm going to make sure I'm taking care of people & letting them take care of me.
posted by edencosmic at 3:44 PM on October 12 [2 favorites]
I contribute to GoFundMes for friends, of course, but also friends of friends.
I do tend to agree that the transactional nature points to a lack of a sense of community, and I get that. Post-Covid, I've really struggled with where mine is. But because it's smaller, that means I'm going to make sure I'm taking care of people & letting them take care of me.
posted by edencosmic at 3:44 PM on October 12 [2 favorites]
I suspect covid has a lot to do with this. I think I at least imagined that systems and individuals alike would do a lot more to take care of their community in a crisis. What I generally found was that a lot of people were selfish, stupid, and stingy. It really damaged my faith in humanity in a way that I am not sure I will ever recover from. As a society, I think it will be a generation or more before people are okay again, before they forget about it and learn to like and trust other people again. I hate to think that way, but I do.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:52 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:52 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
Remember when we started measuring "Friends" around 2012
This is not really related to that comment, but the capitalised word 'Friends' triggered me.
It's the Rembrandts I blame for all this, because they[1] wrote "I'll be there for you, 'cos you're there for me too", which, to me, has always smacked of the sort of transactionality being discussed here.
It could so easily have been fixed, too: "... and you're there for me too" makes perfect sense and preserves scansion, without feeling so conditional.
Sorry for the slight detour but I don't know anyone who uses Venmo and I hope I never do.
[1] according to Wikipedia a couple of show staff also contributed to the lyrics.
posted by BCMagee at 4:11 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
This is not really related to that comment, but the capitalised word 'Friends' triggered me.
It's the Rembrandts I blame for all this, because they[1] wrote "I'll be there for you, 'cos you're there for me too", which, to me, has always smacked of the sort of transactionality being discussed here.
It could so easily have been fixed, too: "... and you're there for me too" makes perfect sense and preserves scansion, without feeling so conditional.
Sorry for the slight detour but I don't know anyone who uses Venmo and I hope I never do.
[1] according to Wikipedia a couple of show staff also contributed to the lyrics.
posted by BCMagee at 4:11 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
The idea that this is happening because people are tired and broke just doesn't make sense to me, either, because I've spent a lot of time around tired, broke, and busy people.
I think it’s that people who grew up comfortably are now struggling and don’t know how to handle it. People who grew up poor learn this approach to community from observing their family and friends, and they also learn to minimize the impact of money stress on their relationships. People who grew up middle class or above who are now finding themselves barely able to make ends meet have no practice in handling that. I’ve seen this happen with some friends and they just had no idea how to deal with being broke, and they sucked at the community care thing even if they were kind and generous people. Often they were in a constant state of panic about their money because they had no idea what happened if you couldn’t pay for something. I’ve had friends absolutely freak out because bills were going to be late and they had never experienced that before and so they had no idea “what happened” if they couldn’t pay the day a bill was due (which, in most cases, was not “you are immediately kicked out onto the street tomorrow”). In one case it caused a spiral where the panic about bills made them shut down and miss work (or not look for work in their frequent periods of unemployment) and therefore cause the same problem over and over again every month until they moved back in with their family.
This can also happen with people who grew up poor, and it’s not universal to people who have a lower socioeconomic status than the one they grew up with, but I think there’s something about the collapse of the middle class in specific that may be at least partially to blame.
posted by brook horse at 4:17 PM on October 12 [16 favorites]
I think it’s that people who grew up comfortably are now struggling and don’t know how to handle it. People who grew up poor learn this approach to community from observing their family and friends, and they also learn to minimize the impact of money stress on their relationships. People who grew up middle class or above who are now finding themselves barely able to make ends meet have no practice in handling that. I’ve seen this happen with some friends and they just had no idea how to deal with being broke, and they sucked at the community care thing even if they were kind and generous people. Often they were in a constant state of panic about their money because they had no idea what happened if you couldn’t pay for something. I’ve had friends absolutely freak out because bills were going to be late and they had never experienced that before and so they had no idea “what happened” if they couldn’t pay the day a bill was due (which, in most cases, was not “you are immediately kicked out onto the street tomorrow”). In one case it caused a spiral where the panic about bills made them shut down and miss work (or not look for work in their frequent periods of unemployment) and therefore cause the same problem over and over again every month until they moved back in with their family.
This can also happen with people who grew up poor, and it’s not universal to people who have a lower socioeconomic status than the one they grew up with, but I think there’s something about the collapse of the middle class in specific that may be at least partially to blame.
posted by brook horse at 4:17 PM on October 12 [16 favorites]
The only time in my life I had paying roommates one of them insisted on monthly rotation of the single penny the three-way split of the rent caused (ie, the rent was, say, 1600 and that divided by three is 533.33333333333333333 so two people wrote checks for 533.33 and one person had to pay 533.34. Got quite starchy about it. (Same person would pull their calculator out in restaurants and even had the audacity to pull extra money out of the pile if they thought the tip was "too high" and pocket it!) Needless to say, I got out of there when lease was up.
Spending time around people like that is exhausting and demoralizing. I've been basically broke for a few years now and my friends have been very gracious about picking up the tab if we go out. If I ever achieve "not broke" again I will happily be buying for a good long while. Picking up the tab when you're flush is one of life's small pleasures!
posted by maxwelton at 4:27 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
Spending time around people like that is exhausting and demoralizing. I've been basically broke for a few years now and my friends have been very gracious about picking up the tab if we go out. If I ever achieve "not broke" again I will happily be buying for a good long while. Picking up the tab when you're flush is one of life's small pleasures!
posted by maxwelton at 4:27 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
"In any case, Otigbah says her friendships have been on the incline since she started to “spend quality time with people” instead of forking out money on club nights or expensive meals. She explains that she used to put a lot of “pressure” on herself “to make these big plans” with friends, but now she feels as though it’s more “important to be transparent and understand that friendship is a deeper connection than how much money is in your bank account.”"This sounds to me like a group of friends maturing at perhaps unequal rates. While some realize it's not all nights out on the town and other's think that's the friendship? As I got older the same applied to me. I'd much have some friends over for a home-cooked meal or some board games than a ritzy dinner at a loud and expensive venue.
posted by ckoerner at 4:52 PM on October 12 [1 favorite]
While some realize it's not all nights out on the town and other's think that's the friendship?
This is a problem recovering addicts often have - as many times their "friendships" are built around the substance of abuse, removing that causes those bonds to fray.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:56 PM on October 12 [1 favorite]
This is a problem recovering addicts often have - as many times their "friendships" are built around the substance of abuse, removing that causes those bonds to fray.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:56 PM on October 12 [1 favorite]
When I was a much broker twentysomething, I think me and my friends had a rough system of repayment because we were all struggling. You buy me a beer, I buy you a beer another time.
I think brook horse nails it, though. A lot of middle class younger folks have never really had to struggle too much and with COL rising and wages flatlining, just being alive is so expensive.
posted by Kitteh at 5:12 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
I think brook horse nails it, though. A lot of middle class younger folks have never really had to struggle too much and with COL rising and wages flatlining, just being alive is so expensive.
posted by Kitteh at 5:12 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
I think this is happening for two reasons. The first is because few people have the skills to be supportive to each other. I don't mean the social skills but the literal skills. It used to be that some people could work on cars and get them going, and some people do simple house repairs like replacing panes of glass and patching plaster, and some people could do simple tailoring, like taking in a dress and shortening pants, and some people could do an at home perm, and some people could tell you which hobby store in town had the best supply of cotton yarn, and some people could tell you the process you needed to apply for community college and get in. Odds were you had the chance to be grateful because there were so many people who could do things for you that you couldn't reasonably to do for yourself. Most people belonged to a social group that had a range of useful skills and information. But now most people do not have a variety of life skills that they can share with other people. If you need cotton yarn, or application forms for the community college, you look it up on the internet. And if your toaster doesn't work, you throw it out because you don't have a friend who can replace the cord. You go to a hairdresser or a mechanic or pick a random contractor to call to fix the hole in the wall so you don't lose your damage deposit.
This is not to say that people no skills they can share - you maybe have a go to person who will help you with your excel formulas, and one favourite friend who is the Tetris expert you call to help you when you need to load your car for a move. But there are far fewer ways we can do each other favours now. That means money may be the only thing we have to even the score.
The second reason I think this is happening is that a huge proportion of the people out there are downwardly mobile, and they know it. They know that they won't be able to pay off their student loans soon enough to get very much benefit from their diploma. They know that they are being priced out of the rental market. They know if the cost of groceries goes up they are going to have to cut back even farther than they already have, if it's even possible. So they are going around anxious, wondering if they should be buying that drink at all, and sharing it makes them even more anxious.
And then consider that you probably don't really know the people in your friends group. You probably met at school, maybe even only met after finishing high school. You don't come from a shared community. If you know about that time they spent a month in hospital when they were twelve, you know about it because they told you. Your parents have never met their parents. So you don't have the expectation that they will stay in your life and you may not know enough about them to know they could be useful to you, or that you could help them. You might have an empty garage that could hold their car while a third friend tinkers with it, but the three of you have no idea that each one of you has a piece of the puzzle.
What are the odds you will all live out your lives living in the same neighbourhood? Not high. This means that you'd be dumb to extend credit over a period of decades. You aren't going to invest in that kid in high school by tutoring them when you are in university. By the time they have gotten a driver's license and can pick you up at the airport, you will have graduated and moved to the other side of the country and you will have dropped out of touch with them. So friends groups tend to be all the same age, which means they all tend to have the same level of income and similar skills. We aren't in part of social networks because we live in the same neighbourhood, so our friends groups are often limited to people like ourselves.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:38 PM on October 12 [14 favorites]
This is not to say that people no skills they can share - you maybe have a go to person who will help you with your excel formulas, and one favourite friend who is the Tetris expert you call to help you when you need to load your car for a move. But there are far fewer ways we can do each other favours now. That means money may be the only thing we have to even the score.
The second reason I think this is happening is that a huge proportion of the people out there are downwardly mobile, and they know it. They know that they won't be able to pay off their student loans soon enough to get very much benefit from their diploma. They know that they are being priced out of the rental market. They know if the cost of groceries goes up they are going to have to cut back even farther than they already have, if it's even possible. So they are going around anxious, wondering if they should be buying that drink at all, and sharing it makes them even more anxious.
And then consider that you probably don't really know the people in your friends group. You probably met at school, maybe even only met after finishing high school. You don't come from a shared community. If you know about that time they spent a month in hospital when they were twelve, you know about it because they told you. Your parents have never met their parents. So you don't have the expectation that they will stay in your life and you may not know enough about them to know they could be useful to you, or that you could help them. You might have an empty garage that could hold their car while a third friend tinkers with it, but the three of you have no idea that each one of you has a piece of the puzzle.
What are the odds you will all live out your lives living in the same neighbourhood? Not high. This means that you'd be dumb to extend credit over a period of decades. You aren't going to invest in that kid in high school by tutoring them when you are in university. By the time they have gotten a driver's license and can pick you up at the airport, you will have graduated and moved to the other side of the country and you will have dropped out of touch with them. So friends groups tend to be all the same age, which means they all tend to have the same level of income and similar skills. We aren't in part of social networks because we live in the same neighbourhood, so our friends groups are often limited to people like ourselves.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:38 PM on October 12 [14 favorites]
Every damn thing is monetized in American society, and the capitalist creep is now worming its filthy threads into most other countries.
I was recently able to reconnect with a sibling that I haven't seen in 14 years and wasn't able to grow up with. I really wanted to feel a closeness with them, but the more we spoke, I'm afraid that's just not going to happen. They were adopted by and married into wealth. I was raised and have lived lower middle class. My husband does art because he's an artistic person. The first thing this person brought up is selling his art and continued to mention it multiple times. DH wouldn't mind money or fame, but he's not business oriented and that's not why he does art. I hate sales and there would be many points of contention if I were to try to act as manager. She kept mentioning that she knew we needed money, and I kept trying to be polite about it. Eventually, I asked her not to bring it up, because not every (damn) thing has to be monetized. Cue sad face. "Just trying to help."
I cleaned house and did some pretty heavy lifting for a friend in exchange for her hauling me and my horse to various events. My labor was in exchange for her gas, my entry fees, hay, etc. People kept telling me I was being taken advantage of, that I could make more than enough money working xyz job per hour. They said she was going anyway, so it really wasn't 'costing' her anything. True, but if she didn't haul me around, I wouldn't have been able to go at all. But she had to consider me and my horse, allow me to invade her camper and haul all my crap, as well as work within my timeline. The thing was that it worked for us. There were so many intangibles on my part--yes, I might have more money, but less freedom to do other things in my life. I knew I wouldn't have to be stuck in a schedule of working and not having time off during a particular weekend and could leave on a Friday. We were companions who supported each other, and the multi-day trips and camping did together deepened our friendship in many, many ways. She doesn't ride anymore. I still clean and do chores for her, and she pays me good money. It's not near as much fun as it used to be.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:46 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
I was recently able to reconnect with a sibling that I haven't seen in 14 years and wasn't able to grow up with. I really wanted to feel a closeness with them, but the more we spoke, I'm afraid that's just not going to happen. They were adopted by and married into wealth. I was raised and have lived lower middle class. My husband does art because he's an artistic person. The first thing this person brought up is selling his art and continued to mention it multiple times. DH wouldn't mind money or fame, but he's not business oriented and that's not why he does art. I hate sales and there would be many points of contention if I were to try to act as manager. She kept mentioning that she knew we needed money, and I kept trying to be polite about it. Eventually, I asked her not to bring it up, because not every (damn) thing has to be monetized. Cue sad face. "Just trying to help."
I cleaned house and did some pretty heavy lifting for a friend in exchange for her hauling me and my horse to various events. My labor was in exchange for her gas, my entry fees, hay, etc. People kept telling me I was being taken advantage of, that I could make more than enough money working xyz job per hour. They said she was going anyway, so it really wasn't 'costing' her anything. True, but if she didn't haul me around, I wouldn't have been able to go at all. But she had to consider me and my horse, allow me to invade her camper and haul all my crap, as well as work within my timeline. The thing was that it worked for us. There were so many intangibles on my part--yes, I might have more money, but less freedom to do other things in my life. I knew I wouldn't have to be stuck in a schedule of working and not having time off during a particular weekend and could leave on a Friday. We were companions who supported each other, and the multi-day trips and camping did together deepened our friendship in many, many ways. She doesn't ride anymore. I still clean and do chores for her, and she pays me good money. It's not near as much fun as it used to be.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:46 PM on October 12 [10 favorites]
I do favors for my friends because I like them and want their lives to be nice.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:28 PM on October 12 [18 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 7:28 PM on October 12 [18 favorites]
We bring different qualities to people and relationships depending on our places in life. Some friends might be better off materially than me, and then where I would come in would be to listen to them, offer a service to them like editing documents or giving feedback on a project, and so forth. Younger friends, well, I'm generally in a better position to pick up the check than they are, for example.
Exploited? Only if we ignore warning signs, like our guts feeling funny if we have to pick up the tab for friend X for the fifth time in a row and they're quite able to pay their share.
Maybe this is a younger-person, less-life-experience problem. I'm an old lady :-)
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 9:43 PM on October 12 [2 favorites]
Exploited? Only if we ignore warning signs, like our guts feeling funny if we have to pick up the tab for friend X for the fifth time in a row and they're quite able to pay their share.
Maybe this is a younger-person, less-life-experience problem. I'm an old lady :-)
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 9:43 PM on October 12 [2 favorites]
I can’t begin to imagine living such an empty, strictly transactional life.
I can, because it's exactly the way the most miserable people I know conduct themselves, and I pay attention to stuff like that because I don't want my life to be as miserable as theirs.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
I can, because it's exactly the way the most miserable people I know conduct themselves, and I pay attention to stuff like that because I don't want my life to be as miserable as theirs.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 PM on October 12 [5 favorites]
I do favors for my friends because I like them and want their lives to be nice.
This.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
This.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 PM on October 12 [3 favorites]
The cast of Friends was making a million dollars each per episode at the end of the series.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:19 PM on October 12 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:19 PM on October 12 [1 favorite]
i'm not sure i buy the premise of this article; as in, i do not think this is a thing that's happening as a part of some greater societal shift. especially if you begin by presuming that everyone does favors for others because they expect them returned. like if you're approaching this subject with that mentality, you're definitely going to end up with more than a few selection biases
that said, when it comes to the types who do tally up who owes them what, in my experience it tends to be folks who have more money than others in the circle. which tracks with my experiences when it comes to how poorly rich people tip, how coldly they receive you if you've come to clean their homes, etc. admittedly i haven't conducted a study on this but it's my poorer friends who are the most generous and least likely to keep track of favours
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:42 AM on October 13 [2 favorites]
that said, when it comes to the types who do tally up who owes them what, in my experience it tends to be folks who have more money than others in the circle. which tracks with my experiences when it comes to how poorly rich people tip, how coldly they receive you if you've come to clean their homes, etc. admittedly i haven't conducted a study on this but it's my poorer friends who are the most generous and least likely to keep track of favours
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:42 AM on October 13 [2 favorites]
This has been around for a long time. I still remember going out to dinner with a successful lawyer forty years ago and watching him spend thirty minutes figuring out what was "fair" from the half dozen of us sitting around the table. The following week another successful lawyer said it was his treat, and we happily paid for his drinks, including an AMAZING aged red wine, and we didn't have to waste half an hour for the accounting.
It takes a hell of a lot of effort to calculate what is "fair". Life is short, and I am saving a lot of time by being generous.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 3:51 AM on October 13 [3 favorites]
It takes a hell of a lot of effort to calculate what is "fair". Life is short, and I am saving a lot of time by being generous.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 3:51 AM on October 13 [3 favorites]
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The real trick, at least in my smaller rural community, is trying to help people who don't like taking help but who could maybe use some. Some people are experts at this. I am less good at it so I watch and learn. And as far as "toxic" (or not) friendships go, I think there are a lot of ways that people can give and take in friendships many of which are fine (whose house you go to, who pays for what, who gives who rides, who is gracious with their time/money, who will bring food when you're sick, who needs help with the yard, who you can call in a jam &c&c) but figuring out if people aren't comfortable with the balance and either adjusting or moving on seems to be a useful social skill.
posted by jessamyn at 12:52 PM on October 12 [19 favorites]