impedimentum est via
October 22, 2024 5:19 PM Subscribe
Next week is International Stoic Week. Seven days of seeing what it feels like to live following Stoic principles. Questions? 24 Common Criticisms of Stoicism — and Some Answers.
The second link is paywalled, so I suppose I'll never know how compelling the answers to the criticisms of stoicism presented there are.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 6:01 PM on October 22, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 6:01 PM on October 22, 2024 [7 favorites]
Oh, interesting.
For about a year I have been enjoying Ryan Holiday's "Daily Stoic" podcast. Some days he basically says "hi, the events you can't control don't have to control you, 'memento mori' means that you should take a small step today rather than tomorrow towards that long term goal, and Marcus Aurelius would be annoyed if he knew that I was giving you this advice out of his diary; I hope this perspective has been useful to you." Other days he interviews people, who are frequently interesting. Sometimes he'll play the Q&A parts of talks he has given about Stoicism in various venues. The Q&A are the most uneven for me, but I frequently wind up enjoying them anyway.
I am surprised just about every time I listen at how helpful I find it. It's a good perspective on life. Even the three-clause summary I just wrote reminded me of an attitude change In trying to make as part of some personal problem solving.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 6:08 PM on October 22, 2024 [5 favorites]
For about a year I have been enjoying Ryan Holiday's "Daily Stoic" podcast. Some days he basically says "hi, the events you can't control don't have to control you, 'memento mori' means that you should take a small step today rather than tomorrow towards that long term goal, and Marcus Aurelius would be annoyed if he knew that I was giving you this advice out of his diary; I hope this perspective has been useful to you." Other days he interviews people, who are frequently interesting. Sometimes he'll play the Q&A parts of talks he has given about Stoicism in various venues. The Q&A are the most uneven for me, but I frequently wind up enjoying them anyway.
I am surprised just about every time I listen at how helpful I find it. It's a good perspective on life. Even the three-clause summary I just wrote reminded me of an attitude change In trying to make as part of some personal problem solving.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 6:08 PM on October 22, 2024 [5 favorites]
Can't type another lett
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 6:17 PM on October 22, 2024
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 6:17 PM on October 22, 2024
Maybe the biggest condemnation of Stoicism is the absolute inability of Seneca to react to Nero’s excesses despite all of the older man’s power and authority. A lot of Stoicism is just Cynicism with the urge for social justice removed. On the other hand, they did solve the paradox of the heap.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:22 PM on October 22, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:22 PM on October 22, 2024 [7 favorites]
Stoicism gave rise to Christianity. If you were a Roman and broke your leg, the Stoics would tell you to just accept your situation and walk it off. The early Christians however founded hospitals and provided actual medical care. (Just keeping someone warm, fed and hydrated could help a sick person recover.) Unsurprisingly, people came to view Christians in a more positive light than Stoics.
posted by SPrintF at 6:22 PM on October 22, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 6:22 PM on October 22, 2024 [4 favorites]
Lol, Genji. You highlight, too, what is essentially my beef with contemporary floggings of stoicism. It is fundamentally a conservative philosophy and so has had wide uptake as the refined philosophical front for the political bastards of our times. Back when I had a bar to go to, we joked occasionally that we were Patioics. As in, like those who sit on their stoas, but at ground level and with booze.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:37 PM on October 22, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:37 PM on October 22, 2024 [4 favorites]
Counterpoint: Diogenes Nutz
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:36 PM on October 22, 2024 [19 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:36 PM on October 22, 2024 [19 favorites]
Apologies - here's the open access link: 24 Common Criticisms of Stoicism - and some answers.
posted by storybored at 9:25 PM on October 22, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by storybored at 9:25 PM on October 22, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm saddened by some of these very hostile comments. I'm as dismissive of Joe Rogan and Peterson as anyone, but I have also enjoyed reading about Stoic teachings and got things from them that help me in life.
I don't think there's anything about Stoicism that prevents you doing good in the world. The criticism of Seneca is not that Stoicism led him to do nothing about Nero, but that he failed to do his duty and was hypocriticial in that Stoicism suggests you *should* do your duty which includes standing up in public life and fulfilling your offices.
For that matter, Stoicism is not unique in being able to be perverted as cover for hurting other people, or as bait for evil ideologies. Could we do a bit better with criticism than drive-by snark? If the linked site is part of crypto-fascist op, and I'm prepared to entertain that because I also see dubious and bad people co-opting the classicial world for their politics, at least do me a favour and clue me in on the who and how.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:10 PM on October 22, 2024 [22 favorites]
I don't think there's anything about Stoicism that prevents you doing good in the world. The criticism of Seneca is not that Stoicism led him to do nothing about Nero, but that he failed to do his duty and was hypocriticial in that Stoicism suggests you *should* do your duty which includes standing up in public life and fulfilling your offices.
For that matter, Stoicism is not unique in being able to be perverted as cover for hurting other people, or as bait for evil ideologies. Could we do a bit better with criticism than drive-by snark? If the linked site is part of crypto-fascist op, and I'm prepared to entertain that because I also see dubious and bad people co-opting the classicial world for their politics, at least do me a favour and clue me in on the who and how.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:10 PM on October 22, 2024 [22 favorites]
Why is Stoicism so popular? Why don’t people go for Epicureanism? As I understand it, you still get the basic principle of not getting upset over things you can’t control, but you get to have as much fun as possible instead of suffering dutifully.
posted by Phanx at 1:32 AM on October 23, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 1:32 AM on October 23, 2024 [8 favorites]
Regret to inform that the actual Epicurean idea of fun is not most people's... mostly involving pleasures of the mind, and avoiding pain; not as we might hope getting enlightenment through sex drugs and rock and roll. Stoics would suggest eating lentils and dry bread periodically so you can really enjoy the times you have something better, Epicureans would suggest finding the pleasure in dry bread - it's all you really need! - while you enjoy contemplating the higher things.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:56 AM on October 23, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:56 AM on October 23, 2024 [10 favorites]
$toicism, Broicism, and StoicisM
Stoicism has been hijacked. It's hardly the first time a philosophy's been misused and it's perfectly fine to revisit with one's own brain and get what you can out of it.
posted by chavenet at 1:58 AM on October 23, 2024 [4 favorites]
Stoicism has been hijacked. It's hardly the first time a philosophy's been misused and it's perfectly fine to revisit with one's own brain and get what you can out of it.
posted by chavenet at 1:58 AM on October 23, 2024 [4 favorites]
I have Piglucci's book and I think it would be hard to call him a cryptofascist. He is a decent sort (and in the best case I think that's where a Stoic practice can get you, a sort of unsentimental common decency of the kind Vonnegut described).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:07 AM on October 23, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:07 AM on October 23, 2024 [3 favorites]
I was being a little glib, but Stoicism is very comfortable with being close to power and maybe criticizing it a little without demanding substantive change. This is a major reason that Stoicism flourished in the Roman Empire, where Cynicism, which rejected state power much more implicitly, did not.
It’s definitely fair to point out that any philosophy or religion that will flourish in a given state will make eager compromise with that state in order to flourish; we are seeing radical mutations of some creeds of Evangelical Christianity to fit the extreme rightward movement of US politics, and Christianity is far less friendly in its roots to state power than Stoicism. And Buddhism, which is about the least state-friendly religion or philosophy imaginable has comfortably made peace with some truly awful states. There is nothing in Stoicism that demands rejection or even modification of the state’s extremes, however. This is precisely why the Roman’s liked it.
To be fair, Epicureanism, the other big philosophical movement in Rome, is equally complicit, and their physics had the Swerve, and Cynicism, the most state-critical philosophy of the era, too often devolved into stunts and cranky, so maybe I’m being too hard on Stoicism, but it’s a philosophy that deserves a lot of side-eye, especially when it’s being adopted by a class of white men positively dripping to make a desert and call it peace.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:47 AM on October 23, 2024 [6 favorites]
It’s definitely fair to point out that any philosophy or religion that will flourish in a given state will make eager compromise with that state in order to flourish; we are seeing radical mutations of some creeds of Evangelical Christianity to fit the extreme rightward movement of US politics, and Christianity is far less friendly in its roots to state power than Stoicism. And Buddhism, which is about the least state-friendly religion or philosophy imaginable has comfortably made peace with some truly awful states. There is nothing in Stoicism that demands rejection or even modification of the state’s extremes, however. This is precisely why the Roman’s liked it.
To be fair, Epicureanism, the other big philosophical movement in Rome, is equally complicit, and their physics had the Swerve, and Cynicism, the most state-critical philosophy of the era, too often devolved into stunts and cranky, so maybe I’m being too hard on Stoicism, but it’s a philosophy that deserves a lot of side-eye, especially when it’s being adopted by a class of white men positively dripping to make a desert and call it peace.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:47 AM on October 23, 2024 [6 favorites]
Hedonism gets a bad rap, but it's undeserved because it's the core of literally every single religion on Earth.
Minimize pain, maximize pleasure, so pray to Jeebus to stay out of hell. Or Muhammad. Or the Amida Buddah. Or Guru Nanak. Or the infinite Tao. Or obey the commands of your virtuous ancestors. Or whatever.
It's all centered on a Mafia style protection racket by the priest swindler class that involves avoiding pain (hell) and getting pleasure (heaven). "Nice soul you've got there bub, it'd sure be a shame if it got condemned to eternal torture in hell...."
But even if we go by the more intellectual erudite sort of hedonism (ie: don't smoke becuase while it feels good now in the long term it brings greater pain), I'm not sure hedonism is all that great because it tends towards escapism and pie in the sky bullshit thinking.
I think we need a sort of anti-stoicism, or reverse stoicism. Cave Johnson's lemon rant seems like a good guide. If life gives you lemons get mad! Demand to speak to life's manager! I don't want your damn lemons! I'm going to burn life's house down; with the lemons!
You don't get labor unions and 8 hour work days from Stoically enduring the shit the bosses lay on you. You get it by going full bore Cave Johnson and making them take the lemons back!
storybored Thanks! I lacked the mental fortitude and grim determination to make a Medium account.
posted by sotonohito at 7:36 AM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]
Minimize pain, maximize pleasure, so pray to Jeebus to stay out of hell. Or Muhammad. Or the Amida Buddah. Or Guru Nanak. Or the infinite Tao. Or obey the commands of your virtuous ancestors. Or whatever.
It's all centered on a Mafia style protection racket by the priest swindler class that involves avoiding pain (hell) and getting pleasure (heaven). "Nice soul you've got there bub, it'd sure be a shame if it got condemned to eternal torture in hell...."
But even if we go by the more intellectual erudite sort of hedonism (ie: don't smoke becuase while it feels good now in the long term it brings greater pain), I'm not sure hedonism is all that great because it tends towards escapism and pie in the sky bullshit thinking.
I think we need a sort of anti-stoicism, or reverse stoicism. Cave Johnson's lemon rant seems like a good guide. If life gives you lemons get mad! Demand to speak to life's manager! I don't want your damn lemons! I'm going to burn life's house down; with the lemons!
You don't get labor unions and 8 hour work days from Stoically enduring the shit the bosses lay on you. You get it by going full bore Cave Johnson and making them take the lemons back!
storybored Thanks! I lacked the mental fortitude and grim determination to make a Medium account.
posted by sotonohito at 7:36 AM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]
Stoicism goes off the rails the moment it tries to externalize. I really appreciate Meditations because it's one dude's Notes to Self about How to Handle Extreme Privilege. It loses everything when it waxes evangelical.
posted by droomoord at 9:01 AM on October 23, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by droomoord at 9:01 AM on October 23, 2024 [3 favorites]
the absolute inability of Seneca to react to Nero’s excesses ?
arguably, Seneca's writings which are held as foundational to Stoicism are exactly that reaction:
posted by HearHere at 9:14 AM on October 23, 2024 [2 favorites]
arguably, Seneca's writings which are held as foundational to Stoicism are exactly that reaction:
In 62, after the death of Burrus, Seneca tried to take a step back; he wanted to return Nero’s gifts (according to Tacitus, Annals 14.53–6). Nero refused. But Seneca retreated all the same, citing his poor health. In his final years he wrote his Moral Epistles [stoics.com], a series of 124 letters to a single addressee, his younger friend Lucilius, which offer advice on how to live a better life with the help of Stoic philosophy. The letters cover a huge range of topics and sometimes touch on issues such as public service. Seneca advises his friend to withdraw from the public sphere and devote himself to philosophically inspired self-improvement. But it is very striking that Nero, with whom Seneca had been so closely associated for more than a decade, is never mentioned once.[antigonejournal]
posted by HearHere at 9:14 AM on October 23, 2024 [2 favorites]
Absolutely the perfect week for this too.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:59 PM on October 23, 2024
posted by jeffburdges at 4:59 PM on October 23, 2024
The Curious and Complicated Case of Seneca. This New Yorker piece does a deep dive on his relationship with Nero. It doesn't settle anything but does raise some interesting points about "the hypocrite without equal in the ancient world: (according to critic Robert Hughes). We learn that Seneca wrote an apologia for Nero after he murdered his mother. We learn, otoh, that the years when Seneca was Nero's adviser were the sane years. After Seneca was exiled Nero became more and more erratic and bloodthirsty. Can we say that Seneca was a moderating influence on power? A question relevant to today's Republic.
posted by storybored at 9:03 PM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by storybored at 9:03 PM on October 23, 2024 [1 favorite]
« Older No Middle Sliders™ | I speak brass tacks till my last acts Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 5:54 PM on October 22, 2024 [3 favorites]