"Mr. President, that’s outside your authority"
October 24, 2024 11:31 PM Subscribe
Trump's recent statements about using the military against the "enemy within" (e.g, the left, anyone who would have power over him, etc.) have prompted John Kelly, his chief of staff for much of his term, to say Trump repeatedly wanted to use the military against Americans when he was president, but lacked generals sufficiently loyal to him.
Here's the full NYTimes interview, giftlinked (I've never tried sharing things this way before, hopefully it works). Some choice quotes:
Trump's repeated desire to use the military against Americans:
Here's the full NYTimes interview, giftlinked (I've never tried sharing things this way before, hopefully it works). Some choice quotes:
Trump's repeated desire to use the military against Americans:
Mr. Kelly said that Mr. Trump was repeatedly told dating back to his first year in office why he should not use the U.S. military against Americans and the limits on his authority to do so. Mr. Trump nevertheless continued while in office to push the issue and claim that he did have the authority to take such actions, Mr. Kelly said.Trump's expectation of personal loyalty from the military:
“Originally, conversation would be: Mr. President, that’s outside your authority, or you know that’s a routine use, you really don’t want to do that inside the United States,” he said. “But now that he’s talking about it as ‘I’m gonna do it’ is, again, it’s disturbing.”
Mr. Trump, Mr. Kelly said, wrongly believed that the uniformed and retired senior generals he brought in to work for him would be loyal to him above all else.Trump as a fascist, not just an autocrat:
...
Mr. Kelly added: “That was a big surprise to him that the generals were not loyal to the boss, in this case him.”
“Well, looking at the definition of fascism: It’s a far-right authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy...So certainly, in my experience, those are the kinds of things that he thinks would work better in terms of running America,” Mr. Kelly said.Trump's praise of Hitler:
Mr. Kelly said that definition accurately described Mr. Trump.
“He commented more than once that, ‘You know, Hitler did some good things, too,’” Mr. Kelly said Mr. Trump told him.An overall assessment:
Mr. Kelly was asked whether Mr. Trump had any empathy.The election, as of this post, is a tossup, according to poll aggreggator 538. To those who are so inclined, you can volunteer for the Harris campaign here.
“No,” Mr. Kelly said.
You know he's keeping far worse secrets than he revealed in that interview. John Kelly is a coward who is still entirely on board with MAGA policy, he just got sidelined when he flinched at old-school criminality and corruption to bring it about.
If he really wanted to prevent another Trump administration, he'd have been on every national TV channel that would take him saying this, and more, for years.
I honestly can't think of a worse fate for someone who spent a career in the Marines: a faithless coward.
posted by tclark at 11:47 PM on October 24, 2024 [58 favorites]
If he really wanted to prevent another Trump administration, he'd have been on every national TV channel that would take him saying this, and more, for years.
I honestly can't think of a worse fate for someone who spent a career in the Marines: a faithless coward.
posted by tclark at 11:47 PM on October 24, 2024 [58 favorites]
Trump: ‘I Need the Kind of Generals That Hitler Had'
I mean. How clearer could it be. And I don't believe for one minute that people voting for the orange tyrant are in any way unsupportive of this. The thing about tyranny is it's ok as long as he's your tyrant.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:11 AM on October 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
I mean. How clearer could it be. And I don't believe for one minute that people voting for the orange tyrant are in any way unsupportive of this. The thing about tyranny is it's ok as long as he's your tyrant.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:11 AM on October 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
It’s been very hard not to call trump a fascist if you had a brain, and the success of American fascism has emboldened European fascists to be more clear about what they want - ethno-nationalism, forced deportations, banning milk made out of nuts, the usual batshittery. Now that this description has broken through to the mainstream I look forward to a wave of articles walking it back from right-wing newspapers
posted by The River Ivel at 12:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 12:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
If Trump gets reelected then let's hope that he does indeed get the kind of generals that Hitler had.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:35 AM on October 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 1:35 AM on October 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
@The River Ivel
Opinion piece in the Guardian from weds 23rd Oct
“The word ‘fascist’ has lost its meaning. And Trump is using that to his advantage.”
posted by Joeruckus at 1:38 AM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Opinion piece in the Guardian from weds 23rd Oct
“The word ‘fascist’ has lost its meaning. And Trump is using that to his advantage.”
posted by Joeruckus at 1:38 AM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
In regards to the enemy within:
“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Hermann Goering.
It's all there, it's all in the historical record, yet here we are again. And yes, Kelly is a coward, and Woodward along with the opportunistic grifters in the press, and McConnell and his ilk, who is finally decrying Trump now that he's a near non sentient bag of meat, where were you all before?
And, it is late, I am in my cups, and I will leave off now.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 1:44 AM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Hermann Goering.
It's all there, it's all in the historical record, yet here we are again. And yes, Kelly is a coward, and Woodward along with the opportunistic grifters in the press, and McConnell and his ilk, who is finally decrying Trump now that he's a near non sentient bag of meat, where were you all before?
And, it is late, I am in my cups, and I will leave off now.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 1:44 AM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
Opinion piece in the Guardian from weds 23rd Oct “The word ‘fascist’ has lost its meaning. And Trump is using that to his advantage.”
Brookes concludes "just like that, the meaning went up in smoke" just because a few WSJ lickspittles prompted Trump to respond to fascist accusations with "I know you are, but what am I", but that's giving in far too easily. Calling Trump a fascist is hardly new—it's just taken a lot of people eight years to catch up with the clearest-eyed commentators of 2016. Plenty of us saw the parallels to Mussolini at the time.
Fascist fanboys have been muddying the waters for decades, not just years, by insisting that the Nazis were "left wing" because the NSDAP had sozialistische in its name, so that they could disclaim the label of "Nazi" while adhering to their core beliefs. But who are they kidding? Naive thirteen-year-olds, maybe. Maybe they're hoping to do the same now with kids who were eight or nine when Trump left office. "Tomorrow belongs to me."
posted by rory at 2:43 AM on October 25, 2024 [14 favorites]
Brookes concludes "just like that, the meaning went up in smoke" just because a few WSJ lickspittles prompted Trump to respond to fascist accusations with "I know you are, but what am I", but that's giving in far too easily. Calling Trump a fascist is hardly new—it's just taken a lot of people eight years to catch up with the clearest-eyed commentators of 2016. Plenty of us saw the parallels to Mussolini at the time.
Fascist fanboys have been muddying the waters for decades, not just years, by insisting that the Nazis were "left wing" because the NSDAP had sozialistische in its name, so that they could disclaim the label of "Nazi" while adhering to their core beliefs. But who are they kidding? Naive thirteen-year-olds, maybe. Maybe they're hoping to do the same now with kids who were eight or nine when Trump left office. "Tomorrow belongs to me."
posted by rory at 2:43 AM on October 25, 2024 [14 favorites]
Surely...
"Don't call me Shirley"
But... sigh...
It's a hell of a trick, completely voiding the meaning of a word, but he's had one hell of a lot of support in getting it done.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:55 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
"Don't call me Shirley"
But... sigh...
It's a hell of a trick, completely voiding the meaning of a word, but he's had one hell of a lot of support in getting it done.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:55 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
“The word ‘fascist’ has lost its meaning. And Trump is using that to his advantage.”
Has it actually lost its meaning, or were the people who wete "misusing" the word prior to this actually just correctly pointing out that we've started down the road to fascism and know where this usually goes?
Like if we're on a road trip to Cleveland, were all those "Cleveland XXX miles" signs along the way misusing the word "Cleveland" so badly that once we're actually in Cleveland there's no one left in the car who believes that Cleveland is a real city that actually exists?
posted by Jacqueline at 3:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [42 favorites]
Has it actually lost its meaning, or were the people who wete "misusing" the word prior to this actually just correctly pointing out that we've started down the road to fascism and know where this usually goes?
Like if we're on a road trip to Cleveland, were all those "Cleveland XXX miles" signs along the way misusing the word "Cleveland" so badly that once we're actually in Cleveland there's no one left in the car who believes that Cleveland is a real city that actually exists?
posted by Jacqueline at 3:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [42 favorites]
Will Donald Trump Go Full Fascist at Madison Square Garden?
posted by rory at 3:49 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by rory at 3:49 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Fascism hasn't lost its meaning, its meaning has been deliberately distorted. But not by those on the left.
The right wants to redefine fascism as some sort of ultimate monstrosity that only cartoonish ghouls are capable of. Guys with swaztika tats and profound psychiatric issues.
It isn't. It is a political position perfectly sane, reasonable people are more than capable of adopting when it suits their perceived interests. Fascists are mostly normal people who have decides that "fuck you, got mine" avarice and stroking their sense of grievance are more important than other people and their rights, and have found some goon on the political stage that will indulge that.
The idea that "fascist" is this radioactive term of last resort that ends civil discussion and not the default failure state of liberal capitalist societies that we need to constantly be on guard against only benefits fascists.
I honestly can't think of a worse fate for someone who spent a career in the Marines: a faithless coward.
I can't think of a more natural fate for someone who has spent his career helping run a criminal war machine.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [26 favorites]
The right wants to redefine fascism as some sort of ultimate monstrosity that only cartoonish ghouls are capable of. Guys with swaztika tats and profound psychiatric issues.
It isn't. It is a political position perfectly sane, reasonable people are more than capable of adopting when it suits their perceived interests. Fascists are mostly normal people who have decides that "fuck you, got mine" avarice and stroking their sense of grievance are more important than other people and their rights, and have found some goon on the political stage that will indulge that.
The idea that "fascist" is this radioactive term of last resort that ends civil discussion and not the default failure state of liberal capitalist societies that we need to constantly be on guard against only benefits fascists.
I honestly can't think of a worse fate for someone who spent a career in the Marines: a faithless coward.
I can't think of a more natural fate for someone who has spent his career helping run a criminal war machine.
posted by pattern juggler at 3:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [26 favorites]
@onebuttonmonkey, @Jacqueline hard favorited. @nightcoast Thanks for the post.
Trump is a wannabe penis-potato: absolutely, totally, and megalomaniacally narcissitcally. This is a digression. But if we're asking has 'Fascist' been neutered through overuse, is Trump a Fascist (like Hitler, Mussolini, etc) or is he a dicktater (like Hitler, Mussolini AND Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, frankly almost all the worst people in history, etc)?...:
My partner asked me if Trump was a fascist. I said "He's a totalitarian narcissist who uses xenophobic supremacy and nationalism, yes; but fascism typically requires government control of industry syndicates, whereby industry determines state policy. [Where all political systems attempt to answer the question of how to attain the 'most good' (and for whom)] Fascism uses totalitarianism and a belief 'whats good for industry will result in the most good for the [insert citizen class]'."
But then I kind of got confused... it seems like "Trump's just in it for himself." Many Republicans and Democrats that the 'most good' is to pay out to wealthy people. That may or maybe not be Fascism's goal to use industry to determine the most effective (efficient) payout to a "citizen class"? Its a digression, but even where Fascism is both wrong and morally reprehensible* I think there's a worse class of just straight-up dicktaters, to which Trump incompetently aspires. So far, governmental bureucracy (Democrat, Republican, and non-partisan) has prevented it... so far...
*CAVEAT: I met an Italian fascist who was very into fascist theory a few years ago. So I wanted to know if Fascism was just a political system (i.e. give power to industry to make the economy work with the ultimate goal of the 'most good' for 'the people', namely was it always Totalitarian as we've seen in history), or like Stalinism or Maoism was our historical version only a totalitarian version of an otherwise reasonable political system. The answer "Nope, Fascism always aspires to totalitarian nationalism, even only in theory. There is no 'democratic' or 'liberarian' Fascism. Plus, its always fundamentally an anti-intellectual movement. "
posted by rubatan at 4:11 AM on October 25, 2024 [11 favorites]
Trump is a wannabe penis-potato: absolutely, totally, and megalomaniacally narcissitcally. This is a digression. But if we're asking has 'Fascist' been neutered through overuse, is Trump a Fascist (like Hitler, Mussolini, etc) or is he a dicktater (like Hitler, Mussolini AND Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, frankly almost all the worst people in history, etc)?...:
My partner asked me if Trump was a fascist. I said "He's a totalitarian narcissist who uses xenophobic supremacy and nationalism, yes; but fascism typically requires government control of industry syndicates, whereby industry determines state policy. [Where all political systems attempt to answer the question of how to attain the 'most good' (and for whom)] Fascism uses totalitarianism and a belief 'whats good for industry will result in the most good for the [insert citizen class]'."
But then I kind of got confused... it seems like "Trump's just in it for himself." Many Republicans and Democrats that the 'most good' is to pay out to wealthy people. That may or maybe not be Fascism's goal to use industry to determine the most effective (efficient) payout to a "citizen class"? Its a digression, but even where Fascism is both wrong and morally reprehensible* I think there's a worse class of just straight-up dicktaters, to which Trump incompetently aspires. So far, governmental bureucracy (Democrat, Republican, and non-partisan) has prevented it... so far...
*CAVEAT: I met an Italian fascist who was very into fascist theory a few years ago. So I wanted to know if Fascism was just a political system (i.e. give power to industry to make the economy work with the ultimate goal of the 'most good' for 'the people', namely was it always Totalitarian as we've seen in history), or like Stalinism or Maoism was our historical version only a totalitarian version of an otherwise reasonable political system. The answer "Nope, Fascism always aspires to totalitarian nationalism, even only in theory. There is no 'democratic' or 'liberarian' Fascism. Plus, its always fundamentally an anti-intellectual movement. "
posted by rubatan at 4:11 AM on October 25, 2024 [11 favorites]
I think it's way past time for it to be widely awknowledged that:
1) Donald Trump is a Fascist.
2) MAGA is an explicitly Fascist, neonazi movement.
3) Anyone passively supporting Trump and MAGA by declining to vote Harris is a fucking quisling.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:05 AM on October 25, 2024 [56 favorites]
1) Donald Trump is a Fascist.
2) MAGA is an explicitly Fascist, neonazi movement.
3) Anyone passively supporting Trump and MAGA by declining to vote Harris is a fucking quisling.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:05 AM on October 25, 2024 [56 favorites]
it's easy to point fingers at the military, but it's also worth considering who gives them orders: democratically elected representatives.
the current obsession with blaming elites, interest groups and conspirators is symptomatic of a society in which individuals are truly isolated from one another.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:13 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
the current obsession with blaming elites, interest groups and conspirators is symptomatic of a society in which individuals are truly isolated from one another.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:13 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
I've talked about some of this before but I'd like to give the perspective of someone who lives in the DC area. Without getting into too many details, I was at the protests at the White House in the summer of 2020 (as a street medic); I'm literally one of the people he wanted them to shoot. It was a very chaotic time and place and it could have been even worse. I'm very afraid about what's going to happen here if he wins again (and frankly even if he doesn't). January 6th was national and international news but it was also a local event that literally happened here, and there were a number of Proud Boy events in the city in the months leading up to the insurrection itself. People I know (including me) were immediately impacted by all of this in a number of ways. Things are scary all over the country and we are all in danger and I want to make sure I acknowledge that but please also keep DC specifically in your thoughts because in some ways people in this area are on the front lines.
posted by an octopus IRL at 5:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [42 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 5:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [42 favorites]
He's a far-right authoritarian, clearly. Is he a Fascist? When that question comes up in conversation, I've got a pat, sarcastic answer: "Fascists were much better organized...and had much better uniforms."
He's a wannabe, cosplaying Fascist, a simulacrum of a Fascist. How close is he to being a real Fascist?
He's taken over the Republican party, but that's it. Power there is unevenly distributed. He has allies in Florida, in other parts of the country Republicans have withered away to being a joke. He has some right wing allies in the corporate and financial world, but definitely doesn't have control there. He's alienated anyone who actually know how to operate the federal government. News media will kiss his ass only to the extent it's good for them, they'll turn on him in a millisecond when he's no longer a story. Celebrities despise him. He has foreign allies who want to use him, none of them are really loyal to him, he's their useful idiot.
He doesn't have a private army. That was tested on January 6. Awful as that was to watch on television, it was mostly an embarrassment and a failure. He does not have the ability to call a politically loyal armed force that can execute power in a way that, say, Franco did.
We don't know how deeply Trumpism has infected the U.S. military. Obviously not 100%. We're seeing top military officers sound warnings--are they doing this because they have high ideals about morality and American values? Who knows? But it's very, very likely that they know that a lot of the military would not participate in a right-wing political campaign. You'd see mutinies, desertions, slow-walking, sabotage. You'd see supply chain disruptions, because while some corporations would be onboard with a right-wing campaign, many more would not. And in the longer term, the U.S. military depends on tax dollars from California, New England, the Pacific Northwest, blue cities and states in general--if things proceed far enough, those revenues start going away.
There was a quote from an unnamed military officer during a previous news cycle when these possibilities were being discussed. It went something like "If you politicize the military, you don't get to play with the hypersonic weapons." The right wing isn't just a danger to people in our everyday lives, it's also a threat to the cohesion of the U.S. as a superpower, as it's been since World War II. That's why you see people as far flung on the political spectrum as Dick Cheney coming out against Trump. They're not motivated by moral qualms or dedication to the Constitution or anything. They see a direct threat to U.S. power. I'm pretty sure people have gamed all this out in conference rooms, and they don't like where it's going.
There's a lot of magical thinking on the right wing, starting with Trump himself, where they seem to think the military is a big collection of robots, and if you get control of the big red button, you can just make them do whatever you want. Reality is much more complicated.
Here's a thought experiment: name something that the right wing (not just Trump) has built in the last 15 years or so. They've taken existing structures over, like state Republican parties and the Supreme Court. They've destroyed things. They've failed at things, starting with the "border wall". But what have they done? Everything they touch turns to crap.
None of this means that a right-wing takeover would be mitigated by their incompetence, it would still be very bad. Individual ooliticized U.S. military units acting on right-wing orders are still destructive. But it's not a totalitarian future, the end of that path is barbarism, chaos, disintegration if you follow it.
Generals warning us about Trump? Not surprising, when you consider that he's a threat to the power and standing of the military itself.
posted by gimonca at 5:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [14 favorites]
He's a wannabe, cosplaying Fascist, a simulacrum of a Fascist. How close is he to being a real Fascist?
He's taken over the Republican party, but that's it. Power there is unevenly distributed. He has allies in Florida, in other parts of the country Republicans have withered away to being a joke. He has some right wing allies in the corporate and financial world, but definitely doesn't have control there. He's alienated anyone who actually know how to operate the federal government. News media will kiss his ass only to the extent it's good for them, they'll turn on him in a millisecond when he's no longer a story. Celebrities despise him. He has foreign allies who want to use him, none of them are really loyal to him, he's their useful idiot.
He doesn't have a private army. That was tested on January 6. Awful as that was to watch on television, it was mostly an embarrassment and a failure. He does not have the ability to call a politically loyal armed force that can execute power in a way that, say, Franco did.
We don't know how deeply Trumpism has infected the U.S. military. Obviously not 100%. We're seeing top military officers sound warnings--are they doing this because they have high ideals about morality and American values? Who knows? But it's very, very likely that they know that a lot of the military would not participate in a right-wing political campaign. You'd see mutinies, desertions, slow-walking, sabotage. You'd see supply chain disruptions, because while some corporations would be onboard with a right-wing campaign, many more would not. And in the longer term, the U.S. military depends on tax dollars from California, New England, the Pacific Northwest, blue cities and states in general--if things proceed far enough, those revenues start going away.
There was a quote from an unnamed military officer during a previous news cycle when these possibilities were being discussed. It went something like "If you politicize the military, you don't get to play with the hypersonic weapons." The right wing isn't just a danger to people in our everyday lives, it's also a threat to the cohesion of the U.S. as a superpower, as it's been since World War II. That's why you see people as far flung on the political spectrum as Dick Cheney coming out against Trump. They're not motivated by moral qualms or dedication to the Constitution or anything. They see a direct threat to U.S. power. I'm pretty sure people have gamed all this out in conference rooms, and they don't like where it's going.
There's a lot of magical thinking on the right wing, starting with Trump himself, where they seem to think the military is a big collection of robots, and if you get control of the big red button, you can just make them do whatever you want. Reality is much more complicated.
Here's a thought experiment: name something that the right wing (not just Trump) has built in the last 15 years or so. They've taken existing structures over, like state Republican parties and the Supreme Court. They've destroyed things. They've failed at things, starting with the "border wall". But what have they done? Everything they touch turns to crap.
None of this means that a right-wing takeover would be mitigated by their incompetence, it would still be very bad. Individual ooliticized U.S. military units acting on right-wing orders are still destructive. But it's not a totalitarian future, the end of that path is barbarism, chaos, disintegration if you follow it.
Generals warning us about Trump? Not surprising, when you consider that he's a threat to the power and standing of the military itself.
posted by gimonca at 5:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [14 favorites]
There's the quote from the historian Cassius Dio about the Roman Emperor Commodus (fictionalized in the move "Gladiator")--to him, Commodus represented the point where the Roman power turned from "an empire of gold to an empire of iron and rust". A talentless leader with a brutal personality cult at the top, while corrupt officials dismantled and sold off the assets below him. That's what the Dick Cheneys of the world are worried about right now.
posted by gimonca at 5:23 AM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by gimonca at 5:23 AM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
"Incredible scenes over on Threads, where Meta is suspending people for mentioning Trump's enthusiasm for Hitler, and even for criticising Hitler. Threads' public relations response has been to lie about the suspensions."
posted by rory at 5:27 AM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
posted by rory at 5:27 AM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
3) Anyone passively supporting Trump and MAGA by declining to vote Harris is a fucking quisling
Slightly different justification, but essentially the same "if you're not with us, you're against us" messaging as the right wing.
You're not owed anyone's vote.
posted by jonnay at 5:53 AM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Slightly different justification, but essentially the same "if you're not with us, you're against us" messaging as the right wing.
You're not owed anyone's vote.
posted by jonnay at 5:53 AM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
I didn't say that the votes were owed. I said people who don't vote Harris are quislings. Because they are deliberately contributing to a fascist takeover of their own country. Folks are free to do that if they want, but I will certainly hold them in contempt forever if they do.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [46 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [46 favorites]
Basking in the cool contempt of mrjohnmuller forever while I stand against genocide. This rules.
posted by tkinvt at 6:01 AM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by tkinvt at 6:01 AM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
If the Uncommited Movement can come out in favour of voting strategically to prevent a Trump presidency, then so can you.
There is no path for justice in Palestine that doesn't include stopping Trump.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:02 AM on October 25, 2024 [46 favorites]
There is no path for justice in Palestine that doesn't include stopping Trump.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:02 AM on October 25, 2024 [46 favorites]
Could we please not turn this post, which I like and think is good, into another thread where we litigate voting? I understand why that topic is important and on everyone's mind but I would really really appreciate it if this thread weren't that.
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:04 AM on October 25, 2024 [21 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:04 AM on October 25, 2024 [21 favorites]
Quisling actively collaborated with the Nazi puppet government. Not voting in a system where most votes don't matter isn't the same. Not voting for someone may have had a direct hand in killing your family members or friends shouldn't be compared to actively working for the Nazi party.
I am not saying it is good not to vote, but I think the comparison is unfair enough to warrant a reply.
it's easy to point fingers at the military, but it's also worth considering who gives them orders: democratically elected representatives.
the current obsession with blaming elites, interest groups and conspirators is symptomatic of a society in which individuals are truly isolated from one another.
I think it is more than our society isn't very democratic and these groups do hold outsized power over our legal and political systems. Individual agency doesn't have a lot of explanatory power in a system of hundreds of millions of people.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:25 AM on October 25, 2024 [11 favorites]
I am not saying it is good not to vote, but I think the comparison is unfair enough to warrant a reply.
it's easy to point fingers at the military, but it's also worth considering who gives them orders: democratically elected representatives.
the current obsession with blaming elites, interest groups and conspirators is symptomatic of a society in which individuals are truly isolated from one another.
I think it is more than our society isn't very democratic and these groups do hold outsized power over our legal and political systems. Individual agency doesn't have a lot of explanatory power in a system of hundreds of millions of people.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:25 AM on October 25, 2024 [11 favorites]
Trump pissed off A LOT of people in the military during his last term, so I don't expect to see much support for him there.
posted by Art_Pot at 7:11 AM on October 25, 2024
posted by Art_Pot at 7:11 AM on October 25, 2024
Even here, in 2024, the idea of Trump being an actual fascist is considered by some to be hyperbole.
Let's look at a bog-standard dictionary definition:
fascism, noun
1 often Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control—often used informally in an exaggerated way
Calling Trump a fascist is being taken as an example of the second "exaggerated" usage when by every measure he meets the features of the first.
Trump is:
- A populist. The rallies, the branding and marketing, the catering to people's worst instincts.
- A nationalist. He doesn't care about anywhere beyond the borders of the USA, and doesn't even care about millions of people within those borders who don't fit his idea of true Americans.
- Authoritarian to the core. He was itching to use the army against American citizens throughout his first term, and now believes that he'll be unconstrained by the law in a second.
- Racist. Nobody here needs a link to convince them of that, surely.
- A capitalist grifter. Whether or not his own wealth is all smoke and mirrors, he certainly seeks to prop up billionaires and American capital through taxation and tariffs that hurt the middle and working classes.
- Has his own uniform—the long red ties, the branded MAGA caps. You don't see Harris or Biden wearing that sort of crap.
- Wants to forcibly suppress his opposition. He's said as much many times. See also "use of army", above. Not to mention his obsession with the big red button.
- And thanks to the Second Amendment, he's got millions of supporters who are armed to the teeth—thousands of whom have already shown they're prepared to attempt to overthrow state and federal governments, and some of whom have murdered political opponents.
I mean, sure, you can argue that he isn't a fascist because he doesn't wear the right kind of uniform or hasn't made the trains run on time, but if someone ticks all the definitional boxes and one of his ex-wives—the one he eventually buried on a golf course—confirmed that he used to keep a book of Hitler's speeches by his bed, don't you think it possible that you're letting him off on a technicality?
posted by rory at 7:12 AM on October 25, 2024 [22 favorites]
Let's look at a bog-standard dictionary definition:
fascism, noun
1 often Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control—often used informally in an exaggerated way
Calling Trump a fascist is being taken as an example of the second "exaggerated" usage when by every measure he meets the features of the first.
Trump is:
- A populist. The rallies, the branding and marketing, the catering to people's worst instincts.
- A nationalist. He doesn't care about anywhere beyond the borders of the USA, and doesn't even care about millions of people within those borders who don't fit his idea of true Americans.
- Authoritarian to the core. He was itching to use the army against American citizens throughout his first term, and now believes that he'll be unconstrained by the law in a second.
- Racist. Nobody here needs a link to convince them of that, surely.
- A capitalist grifter. Whether or not his own wealth is all smoke and mirrors, he certainly seeks to prop up billionaires and American capital through taxation and tariffs that hurt the middle and working classes.
- Has his own uniform—the long red ties, the branded MAGA caps. You don't see Harris or Biden wearing that sort of crap.
- Wants to forcibly suppress his opposition. He's said as much many times. See also "use of army", above. Not to mention his obsession with the big red button.
- And thanks to the Second Amendment, he's got millions of supporters who are armed to the teeth—thousands of whom have already shown they're prepared to attempt to overthrow state and federal governments, and some of whom have murdered political opponents.
I mean, sure, you can argue that he isn't a fascist because he doesn't wear the right kind of uniform or hasn't made the trains run on time, but if someone ticks all the definitional boxes and one of his ex-wives—the one he eventually buried on a golf course—confirmed that he used to keep a book of Hitler's speeches by his bed, don't you think it possible that you're letting him off on a technicality?
posted by rory at 7:12 AM on October 25, 2024 [22 favorites]
People for some reason desperately want the election to be about the things it is not: Israel, fascism or "fascism", global warming, abortion, etc.
The election is about the one thing that is changing Biden 2020 voters to Trump 2024 voters: inflation. That's it.
Harris would be cruising to 350 electoral votes had she in July said: "COVID, along with Trump's fiscal policies and his hand-picked Federal Reserve's monetary policies in 2020 sewed the seeds for an unacceptable level of inflation. Understand where the base level of fault lies. However, that doesn't excuse the Biden Administration's greatest error - that on January 20, 2021 we didn't declare inflation enemy number one and act accordingly. My program to cut prices is X, Y and Z and there will no higher priority for my administration, and no sacred cow I won't slaughter in pursuit of it."
posted by MattD at 7:13 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
The election is about the one thing that is changing Biden 2020 voters to Trump 2024 voters: inflation. That's it.
Harris would be cruising to 350 electoral votes had she in July said: "COVID, along with Trump's fiscal policies and his hand-picked Federal Reserve's monetary policies in 2020 sewed the seeds for an unacceptable level of inflation. Understand where the base level of fault lies. However, that doesn't excuse the Biden Administration's greatest error - that on January 20, 2021 we didn't declare inflation enemy number one and act accordingly. My program to cut prices is X, Y and Z and there will no higher priority for my administration, and no sacred cow I won't slaughter in pursuit of it."
posted by MattD at 7:13 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
The election is about the one thing that is changing Biden 2020 voters to Trump 2024 voters: inflation. That's it.
Have women, young people, African Americans and Latinos been magically spared the effects of inflation?
posted by rory at 7:20 AM on October 25, 2024 [20 favorites]
Have women, young people, African Americans and Latinos been magically spared the effects of inflation?
posted by rory at 7:20 AM on October 25, 2024 [20 favorites]
Isn't this more a case of journalists belatedly asking Harris whether she considers Trump a fascist and her answering plainly that she does, rather than her campaign pushing it as a message?
I did like the "weird" angle, though—it was clear it totally needled him and his supporters in a way that being called fascists doesn't.
posted by rory at 7:25 AM on October 25, 2024
I did like the "weird" angle, though—it was clear it totally needled him and his supporters in a way that being called fascists doesn't.
posted by rory at 7:25 AM on October 25, 2024
At this point, Trump could say, at a rally with thousands of people, with multiple cameras on him, with dozens of reporters in attendance that if elected he planned to have the Air Force bomb Harris's house because he doesn't like her, because she's a Black woman, and he knows it's illegal and he doesn't care, because the president is like a king, and the law doesn't apply, and the NYT headline would say something like "Trump riles crowd with more charged language."
We really cannot be surprised anymore at the level of things he can get away with saying that should be disqualifying.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:28 AM on October 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
We really cannot be surprised anymore at the level of things he can get away with saying that should be disqualifying.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:28 AM on October 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. It's ok to disagree, but let's avoid mocking other community members for their beliefs.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:45 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:45 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
The election is about the one thing that is changing Biden 2020 voters to Trump 2024 voters: inflation. That's it.
"Remember how inflation was relatively high in 2022, off the back of a pandemic that disrupted global supply chains and a European war that disrupted global energy prices? Sure, it's settled down since mid-2023 and is currently 2.44%, compared to a long-term average of 3.28%, but still—remember 2022? Well, vote for me, and I'll guarantee that nothing else will happen that might cause inflation to spike by five percentage points for a few months, for the low, low price of forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, forcing gay people out of their marriages, forcing trans people to deny their own selves, and forcing non-Americans and even some Americans out of the country altogether. Oh, and thanks to higher tariffs you'll have to pay more for anything that wasn't made in America, which somehow won't have any impact on inflation whatsoever."
[Wordlessly sways to music on stage for the next 40 minutes.]
posted by rory at 7:58 AM on October 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
"Remember how inflation was relatively high in 2022, off the back of a pandemic that disrupted global supply chains and a European war that disrupted global energy prices? Sure, it's settled down since mid-2023 and is currently 2.44%, compared to a long-term average of 3.28%, but still—remember 2022? Well, vote for me, and I'll guarantee that nothing else will happen that might cause inflation to spike by five percentage points for a few months, for the low, low price of forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, forcing gay people out of their marriages, forcing trans people to deny their own selves, and forcing non-Americans and even some Americans out of the country altogether. Oh, and thanks to higher tariffs you'll have to pay more for anything that wasn't made in America, which somehow won't have any impact on inflation whatsoever."
[Wordlessly sways to music on stage for the next 40 minutes.]
posted by rory at 7:58 AM on October 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
I don't think whether Trump is "good" at implementing fascism (his lack of organisation, coherence and a uniform) is really relevant to whether his words (unscrambled as they have to be) and proclamations exemplify fascism. He is everything that ticks the box with his race, law and order, and power cult of personality.
Is he a narcissist wannabe who probably couldn't think through the philosophy? Yes and probably. But fascism is very much built by people "working towards" the ideas they think their leader has. He is producing fascism even if he wouldn't even know what a Kristallnacht is.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 8:05 AM on October 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
Is he a narcissist wannabe who probably couldn't think through the philosophy? Yes and probably. But fascism is very much built by people "working towards" the ideas they think their leader has. He is producing fascism even if he wouldn't even know what a Kristallnacht is.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 8:05 AM on October 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
People keep saying things should be disqualifying. And it should. The thing is, a whole lot of Americans are fascists. They like authoritarianism, nativism, racism, misogyny, and religious oppression. Or they are alright with them as long as they get a tax cut or better stock values. They are fundamentally opposed to the values most of us here hold. There isn't some common ground we can share with them. There aren't norms we and they will both give up power to maintain.
They are enemies. They can only be defeated. Hopefully at the ballot box. If not, then by doing everything we can to deny them legitimacy, material support, and access to their would be victims.
Voting isn't self expression. It also isn't a sacred duty. It is a tool in a big toolbox. There are votes that don't matter and there's no intrinsic value in naking a selection for the sake of doing it.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:18 AM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
They are enemies. They can only be defeated. Hopefully at the ballot box. If not, then by doing everything we can to deny them legitimacy, material support, and access to their would be victims.
Voting isn't self expression. It also isn't a sacred duty. It is a tool in a big toolbox. There are votes that don't matter and there's no intrinsic value in naking a selection for the sake of doing it.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:18 AM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
Trump pissed off A LOT of people in the military during his last term, so I don't expect to see much support for him there.
Military branches unlikely to support Trump's nefarious plans:
- Marines
- Navy
- Army
Military branches likely to support Trump's nefarious plans:
- Space Force
- Air Force
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
Military branches unlikely to support Trump's nefarious plans:
- Marines
- Navy
- Army
Military branches likely to support Trump's nefarious plans:
- Space Force
- Air Force
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
There are votes that don't matter and there's no intrinsic value in naking a selection for the sake of doing it.
There are always downticket races where your vote can make a difference. Don't want to cast a vote for president, fine. Don't. But don't ignore the local races, where your vote can matter.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:25 AM on October 25, 2024 [12 favorites]
There are always downticket races where your vote can make a difference. Don't want to cast a vote for president, fine. Don't. But don't ignore the local races, where your vote can matter.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:25 AM on October 25, 2024 [12 favorites]
There are always downticket races where your vote can make a difference. Don't want to cast a vote for president, fine. Don't. But don't ignore the local races, where your vote can matter.
Absolutely. I voted straight Democrat on every race already (Including for Harris/Walz). But I'm not going to get up the nose of a Palestinian in Tennessee or California for not hitting the lever for Harris just to say they did.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:29 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
Absolutely. I voted straight Democrat on every race already (Including for Harris/Walz). But I'm not going to get up the nose of a Palestinian in Tennessee or California for not hitting the lever for Harris just to say they did.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:29 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
and no sacred cow I won't slaughter in pursuit of it.
That figure of speech is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Please elaborate on which policies you consider to be expendable while pursing inflation reduction.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
That figure of speech is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Please elaborate on which policies you consider to be expendable while pursing inflation reduction.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:36 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
Further pursuant to my point that refusing to vote Harris actually goes against the stated wishes of anti-genocide activists, "Arizona Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and Progressive Democrats and Community Leaders" just put out this statement in favour of strategic voting. Here's a snippet:
"In our view, it is crystal clear that allowing the fascist Donald Trump to become President again would be the worst possible outcome for the Palestinian people. A Trump win would be an extreme danger to Muslims in our country, all immigrants, and the American pro-Palestine movement. It would be an existential threat to our democracy and our whole planet."
So, yeah. If you think that by refusing to vote for Harris you are taking some sort of principled stand, think again.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:52 AM on October 25, 2024 [35 favorites]
"In our view, it is crystal clear that allowing the fascist Donald Trump to become President again would be the worst possible outcome for the Palestinian people. A Trump win would be an extreme danger to Muslims in our country, all immigrants, and the American pro-Palestine movement. It would be an existential threat to our democracy and our whole planet."
So, yeah. If you think that by refusing to vote for Harris you are taking some sort of principled stand, think again.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:52 AM on October 25, 2024 [35 favorites]
It's not whether Trump is effective at fascism that has me spooked - it's the fact that his ineffectual efforts have still managed to win over 50% of the god-damn country.
We are already in danger. We should never have gotten this close. The fact that "it would have been worse if he were better at it" is not a reason to be relieved.
We need him gone. We do not want to give him any chance to get close to actually enforcing his plans, or - even worse - getting better at delivering his fascist message.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [36 favorites]
We are already in danger. We should never have gotten this close. The fact that "it would have been worse if he were better at it" is not a reason to be relieved.
We need him gone. We do not want to give him any chance to get close to actually enforcing his plans, or - even worse - getting better at delivering his fascist message.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 AM on October 25, 2024 [36 favorites]
I have long believed that Trump's statements and behavior reflect an ideology that meets the definition of fascism set out by Roger Griffin, namely "a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism."
Griffin has said at various times that he does not consider Trump to be a fascist under his definition, noting that Trump has "never actually done a Putin and tried to make himself a permanent president, let alone suggest any coherent plan for overthrowing the constitutional system. [...] He does not pose a challenge to constitutional democracy."
While initially (like, 2016 and into the first few months of Trump's presidency) I probably would have agreed with Griffin, despite the clearly palingenetic and ultra-nationalist strains of rhetoric that certainly made one wonder. I'm thinking of things like "I alone can fix it," "drain the swamp," etc. Over the course of the presidency I drifted further from Griffin (that is, I became more convinced that Trump did indeed satisfy Griffin's criteria, despite Griffin's continued statements that he did not). Out of office, Trump got even heavier into the palingenesis - that's when he started talking about getting rid of (or "suspending" might have been his word? I forget) the Constitution.
At this point, I think Griffin is deluding himself if he continues to believe Trump is not a fascist under his (Griffin's) definition. Or at minimum, even if Trump personally is not a fascist, MAGA is certainly a fascist movement. I don't know how anyone of Griffin's intellectual capacity could look at January 6 and still say Trump doesn't pose a "challenge" to constitutional democracy in the United States.
posted by nickmark at 9:07 AM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
Griffin has said at various times that he does not consider Trump to be a fascist under his definition, noting that Trump has "never actually done a Putin and tried to make himself a permanent president, let alone suggest any coherent plan for overthrowing the constitutional system. [...] He does not pose a challenge to constitutional democracy."
While initially (like, 2016 and into the first few months of Trump's presidency) I probably would have agreed with Griffin, despite the clearly palingenetic and ultra-nationalist strains of rhetoric that certainly made one wonder. I'm thinking of things like "I alone can fix it," "drain the swamp," etc. Over the course of the presidency I drifted further from Griffin (that is, I became more convinced that Trump did indeed satisfy Griffin's criteria, despite Griffin's continued statements that he did not). Out of office, Trump got even heavier into the palingenesis - that's when he started talking about getting rid of (or "suspending" might have been his word? I forget) the Constitution.
At this point, I think Griffin is deluding himself if he continues to believe Trump is not a fascist under his (Griffin's) definition. Or at minimum, even if Trump personally is not a fascist, MAGA is certainly a fascist movement. I don't know how anyone of Griffin's intellectual capacity could look at January 6 and still say Trump doesn't pose a "challenge" to constitutional democracy in the United States.
posted by nickmark at 9:07 AM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
MattD: yea sure inflation. But you’re missing the massive elephant in the room. Dobbs. That was a huge issue post vile S.C decision and will be again.
And the fascists (yes they are fascist- if it quacks like a duck it’s a duck) live for hating immigrants which are a stand in for all minority groups and tats their bullshit priority, not inflation.
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
And the fascists (yes they are fascist- if it quacks like a duck it’s a duck) live for hating immigrants which are a stand in for all minority groups and tats their bullshit priority, not inflation.
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:17 AM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Trump pissed off A LOT of people in the military during his last term, so I don't expect to see much support for him there.
That’s why a major focus of Project 2025 is purges of the disloyal.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:27 AM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
That’s why a major focus of Project 2025 is purges of the disloyal.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:27 AM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
As for inflation. As I posted in another thread, to control inflation you need an independent Federal Reserve as the bare minimum. And Trump is very open about his hatred for central bank independence.
posted by runcifex at 9:35 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by runcifex at 9:35 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
People: Sure, Trump is an idiot, but he 's surrounded by people who will keep him and his undemocratic ideas in check ...
Supreme Court: Hold my gavel ...
Trump: I now can haz immunity for "official acts" ... open fire!
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:31 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
Supreme Court: Hold my gavel ...
Trump: I now can haz immunity for "official acts" ... open fire!
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:31 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
As Horace Rumpole mentioned above, the Heritage Foundation is working overtime to compile lists of all federal employees that they want to purge the moment that they get control. It's easy to forget but even without the purge, the FBI, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Department of Homeland Security and the Secret Service all worked hard to enable Trump's most extremist policies and cover up his (and their) involvement in January 6th among other things.
It won't be easy to realign the military, but the lessons learned at the end of his first term as President (dropping in stooges to run the Department of Defense, for example) will help expedite the clearing house and reorganization necessary for it to happen, as well as the political fig leaves needed to make it feel legitimate. Combined with the Supreme Court's rubber stamp of approval for anything that can be considered official duties of the President, it is likely that it will be a swift and exponential change this time around.
Even if the military does manage to hold itself apart, he's already openly discussing giving the police (who adore him) complete freedom to rampage without repercussion and murder anybody that they don't like. The long term project to provide military systems and weaponry to the police will pay dividends during this time period for them.
We're already at the point that 47% of Americans want to put immigrants into concentration camps, and that is before the swing in popular opinion that will happen if Trump manages to regain power and gains control of the media. Any large scale protests or attempts to push back on the raids, will be painted as justifications to grab more power and larger swaths of the U.S. population will join in on agreeing about it - even as the list of open targets grows and grows.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 10:37 AM on October 25, 2024 [26 favorites]
It won't be easy to realign the military, but the lessons learned at the end of his first term as President (dropping in stooges to run the Department of Defense, for example) will help expedite the clearing house and reorganization necessary for it to happen, as well as the political fig leaves needed to make it feel legitimate. Combined with the Supreme Court's rubber stamp of approval for anything that can be considered official duties of the President, it is likely that it will be a swift and exponential change this time around.
Even if the military does manage to hold itself apart, he's already openly discussing giving the police (who adore him) complete freedom to rampage without repercussion and murder anybody that they don't like. The long term project to provide military systems and weaponry to the police will pay dividends during this time period for them.
We're already at the point that 47% of Americans want to put immigrants into concentration camps, and that is before the swing in popular opinion that will happen if Trump manages to regain power and gains control of the media. Any large scale protests or attempts to push back on the raids, will be painted as justifications to grab more power and larger swaths of the U.S. population will join in on agreeing about it - even as the list of open targets grows and grows.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 10:37 AM on October 25, 2024 [26 favorites]
There's a kind of momentum building, because it's much safer to support Trump than oppose him, because only one candidate has threatened retribution. Nobody thinks Harris is going to go after Aileen Cannon if she wins. The point will come where our leaders will eagerly step aside for Trump, so as to not to provoke his ire.
posted by ryanrs at 11:03 AM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 11:03 AM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
So, yeah. If you think that by refusing to vote for Harris you are taking some sort of principled stand, think again.
The electorate will be mostly the same in 2026. AIPAC and the ADL will still exist in the same way, ready to carpet bonb anti-genocide politicians in primaries. The crackdown on protests continues on campuses. There is zero indication, public or rumored in private, that Harris will push back against Israel.
You call me a quisling, unprincipled, and much more besides I'm sure. What I am not is a fucking coward who, together with 90% of the democratic party, pissed away all leverage in the primaries and afterwards to effect change. 10 months! 10 months of dithering and maneuvering and excuse making. They'll come for me like everyone else but at the end I'll still be able to say "Never again meant now for me".
I never understood how the Good Germans could stand by and do nothing before 2024 and I deeply wish to return to that ignorance now. God only knows what the dems will sacrifice to win 2026 if they win now and how many of you will make the same excuses again, even as those pulled to the altar originate domestically. They will always be the wolf at the door. And we're growing long in fang on this side of the portal.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
The electorate will be mostly the same in 2026. AIPAC and the ADL will still exist in the same way, ready to carpet bonb anti-genocide politicians in primaries. The crackdown on protests continues on campuses. There is zero indication, public or rumored in private, that Harris will push back against Israel.
You call me a quisling, unprincipled, and much more besides I'm sure. What I am not is a fucking coward who, together with 90% of the democratic party, pissed away all leverage in the primaries and afterwards to effect change. 10 months! 10 months of dithering and maneuvering and excuse making. They'll come for me like everyone else but at the end I'll still be able to say "Never again meant now for me".
I never understood how the Good Germans could stand by and do nothing before 2024 and I deeply wish to return to that ignorance now. God only knows what the dems will sacrifice to win 2026 if they win now and how many of you will make the same excuses again, even as those pulled to the altar originate domestically. They will always be the wolf at the door. And we're growing long in fang on this side of the portal.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
Oh, and you have to do this dance forever. The democrats will never vanquish them, they will not slink away or change or adapt. Their voters want blood and revenge and cruelty, they're drunk with imagining it. So you have to make concessions for the rest of your life, whittling away at decency each cycle.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:14 AM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 11:14 AM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
Okay, so, because I'm not supposed to mock you, I'll engage with you seriously. You believe that you're doing the right thing—yet the only effects your actions have are to make it marginally more likely that Trump will allow Netanyahu to let all the Gazans die and then turn the strip into a beach resort. And on top of that, anyone not a white cis male Christian in the USA to be under a real threat of being thrown into a concentration camp. So, what exactly gives you a feeling of moral superiority here, and how is that justified?
Did YOU support a primary candidate against Biden? You could have run, you know.
I mean, it's not wrong to say that the Dem Party has been captured by pro-Israeli interests: this has been a process going on for decades, a political alliance. It's also not wrong to say that without a real supermajority in the American Jewish vote, the Dem Party is screwed at the presidential level—so you're essentially saying that Harris should directly turn off a solid, dedicated voting bloc in order to meet your moral standards. There's undoubtedly a way to frame this where it makes sense, but I just don't know what it is.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:28 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
Did YOU support a primary candidate against Biden? You could have run, you know.
I mean, it's not wrong to say that the Dem Party has been captured by pro-Israeli interests: this has been a process going on for decades, a political alliance. It's also not wrong to say that without a real supermajority in the American Jewish vote, the Dem Party is screwed at the presidential level—so you're essentially saying that Harris should directly turn off a solid, dedicated voting bloc in order to meet your moral standards. There's undoubtedly a way to frame this where it makes sense, but I just don't know what it is.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:28 AM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
Trump: ‘I Need the Kind of Generals That Hitler Had'
I mean. How clearer could it be. And I don't believe for one minute that people voting for the orange tyrant are in any way unsupportive of this.
They absolutely support it but I've also seen lots of (bot?) comments claiming he never said it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:45 AM on October 25, 2024
I mean. How clearer could it be. And I don't believe for one minute that people voting for the orange tyrant are in any way unsupportive of this.
They absolutely support it but I've also seen lots of (bot?) comments claiming he never said it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:45 AM on October 25, 2024
Yeah, presidential candidates should be able to meet the moral standard of not directly supporting genocide. Otherwise, they will lose votes.
It's telling that a certain class of online commentator is outraged that a supposedly insignificant number of people might not vote for a candidate directly participating in genocide, but have no problem with this claimed "super majority" of voters who will not for any candidate who ends support for genocide.
It is such a common pattern that you can't help but wander if there are some whose opposition has less to do with pragmatism, and more with malice, against either Palestine, or some imagined leftist enemy.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
It's telling that a certain class of online commentator is outraged that a supposedly insignificant number of people might not vote for a candidate directly participating in genocide, but have no problem with this claimed "super majority" of voters who will not for any candidate who ends support for genocide.
It is such a common pattern that you can't help but wander if there are some whose opposition has less to do with pragmatism, and more with malice, against either Palestine, or some imagined leftist enemy.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Slightly different justification, but essentially the same "if you're not with us, you're against us" messaging as the right wing.
“Slightly” different justification? Spare us that BS. If Trump gets in office, a LOT of people are going to die. Families are going to be ripped apart. You have the right to vote for who you want, or not vote at all, but don’t try telling us that this is a “oh you have to earn my vote” type of election. If you know that then you’re just being hot-take obtuse. If you do t know that then you simply have been one of the fortunate who has been able to ignore everything for the last few years.
posted by azpenguin at 11:52 AM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
“Slightly” different justification? Spare us that BS. If Trump gets in office, a LOT of people are going to die. Families are going to be ripped apart. You have the right to vote for who you want, or not vote at all, but don’t try telling us that this is a “oh you have to earn my vote” type of election. If you know that then you’re just being hot-take obtuse. If you do t know that then you simply have been one of the fortunate who has been able to ignore everything for the last few years.
posted by azpenguin at 11:52 AM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
I mean, it's not wrong to say that the Dem Party has been captured by pro-Israeli interests: this has been a process going on for decades, a political alliance. It's also not wrong to say that without a real supermajority in the American Jewish vote, the Dem Party is screwed at the presidential level—so you're essentially saying that Harris should directly turn off a solid, dedicated voting bloc in order to meet your moral standards. There's undoubtedly a way to frame this where it makes sense, but I just don't know what it is.
If the party has been genocide agnostic this whole time then I am deeply ashamed to have ever been a member. To the best of my knowledge, this has never been a question before, we've never given military, monetary, political, and diplomatic aid to a genocide, so why would it have been a question? Because of fucking course the good party is anti-genocide, what the fuck else would they be? Or so I thought.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:57 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
If the party has been genocide agnostic this whole time then I am deeply ashamed to have ever been a member. To the best of my knowledge, this has never been a question before, we've never given military, monetary, political, and diplomatic aid to a genocide, so why would it have been a question? Because of fucking course the good party is anti-genocide, what the fuck else would they be? Or so I thought.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:57 AM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
If Trump gets in, undoubtedly Israel will enjoy the support of America and feel empowered as it kills more Palestinians, including thousands of children.
If Kamala gets in, undoubtedly Israel will continue to enjoy the support of America as it kills many Palestinians, including thousands of children.
The correct number of Palestinian children Israel should kill is obviously zero. And I get that more is worse than many, but many is in itself unacceptable. Any is unacceptable. There isn't a real better here, just the relative maths of too many murders that are in principle supported by both parties.
Over and over again, I see people being told they must actively support a slightly lower rate of genocide in order to reject a fascist from winning. If you can't see why some people have a genuine problem with that - milder genocide with not fascist! - well, good for you I guess.
When these are the stakes, people have every right to say neither party earned their vote. No one deserves a vote. And no one is obliged to vote for the lesser of two evils when the evil crosses their moral lines. And, most of all, the voters you blame for making that choice are not responsible for what the democratic candidate chooses to do when faced with genocide perpetrated with American weapon sales.
If it doesn't cross the lines for you because of what's at stake at home, that's up to you, of course. Everyone has their own balance. But it's not the voters' fault if the democrats can't field a candidate worth voting for on their own merits.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:00 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
If Kamala gets in, undoubtedly Israel will continue to enjoy the support of America as it kills many Palestinians, including thousands of children.
The correct number of Palestinian children Israel should kill is obviously zero. And I get that more is worse than many, but many is in itself unacceptable. Any is unacceptable. There isn't a real better here, just the relative maths of too many murders that are in principle supported by both parties.
Over and over again, I see people being told they must actively support a slightly lower rate of genocide in order to reject a fascist from winning. If you can't see why some people have a genuine problem with that - milder genocide with not fascist! - well, good for you I guess.
When these are the stakes, people have every right to say neither party earned their vote. No one deserves a vote. And no one is obliged to vote for the lesser of two evils when the evil crosses their moral lines. And, most of all, the voters you blame for making that choice are not responsible for what the democratic candidate chooses to do when faced with genocide perpetrated with American weapon sales.
If it doesn't cross the lines for you because of what's at stake at home, that's up to you, of course. Everyone has their own balance. But it's not the voters' fault if the democrats can't field a candidate worth voting for on their own merits.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:00 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
It’s not dark yet but it’s getting there.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:00 PM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by non canadian guy at 12:00 PM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
I think not voting for Harris because of moral disgust over Israel's actions is principled, even if I don't hold this position myself. I have sympathy for this position. I've marched against what I see as genocide and apartheid in Palestine, I've called my respresentatives to push them to stop military aid to Israel, and I've gotten into long and uncomfortable arguments with my fellow Jews in attempt to convince them to open their minds around what has and is being done to the Palestinian people. I get that for some people, the principle of "never again" makes supporting Harris a door they will not walk through.
I made this post in part because as horrible as the situation is, these comments from Kelly feel, to me, like an indication of how much worse things could still be. Campus encampments getting cleared with tear gas is bad enough. I don't want them cleared with bullets.
posted by nightcoast at 12:05 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
I made this post in part because as horrible as the situation is, these comments from Kelly feel, to me, like an indication of how much worse things could still be. Campus encampments getting cleared with tear gas is bad enough. I don't want them cleared with bullets.
So you have to make concessions for the rest of your life, whittling away at decency each cycle.I hear this. Supporting a morally corrupt system is morally corrupting. Sometimes living through a life in US politics feels like constantly swimming through a pool of shit and blood that we're all stuck in together to try to stop someone from switching the shit and blood spigot to an even worse spigot. Fighting to keep the shit and blood spigot seems so laughably cruel. But I really do think we can one day turn on the water tap, and that switching to the worse tap this time around will make that possibility harder, for a long time.
posted by nightcoast at 12:05 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
Additional: as I've said before, the fact that Trump is so fucking terrible is not a reason not to be good enough. It's the reason the alternative has to be even better.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
In engineering culture, there's a concept that's roughly "let it fail". If a system requires unreasonable things from you to survive, then the system is going to fail and you're just delaying that.
Not committing genocide has been, to my understanding, an axiomatic part of American identity. It is part of mine.
When talking to a trans friend of mine, recently, she made an observation: (paraphrased) "We've spent almost all of our existence surviving in environments that want to kill us. I'd rather not, but I'm not afraid of it."
Asking me to vote for a candidate that is currently bankrolling the wholesale slaughter of my friends is not an enticing offer. If you want the votes of people impacted by this genocide, you're going to have to offer more than insults and patronization.
posted by constraint at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
Not committing genocide has been, to my understanding, an axiomatic part of American identity. It is part of mine.
When talking to a trans friend of mine, recently, she made an observation: (paraphrased) "We've spent almost all of our existence surviving in environments that want to kill us. I'd rather not, but I'm not afraid of it."
Asking me to vote for a candidate that is currently bankrolling the wholesale slaughter of my friends is not an enticing offer. If you want the votes of people impacted by this genocide, you're going to have to offer more than insults and patronization.
posted by constraint at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
Asking me to vote for a candidate that is currently bankrolling the wholesale slaughter of my friends is not an enticing offer. If you want the votes of people impacted by this genocide, you're going to have to offer more than insults and patronization.
I can only gently suggest that of the two candidates, only one might be talked out of that position. With the other there is no chance whatsoever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
I can only gently suggest that of the two candidates, only one might be talked out of that position. With the other there is no chance whatsoever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
Not committing genocide has been, to my understanding, an axiomatic part of American identity.
!
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:14 PM on October 25, 2024 [28 favorites]
!
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:14 PM on October 25, 2024 [28 favorites]
If Trump gets in it's not just that Israel will continue to have American support. I would say it's pretty likely that American humanitarian aid to Gaza would end and Israel's extreme government would get cover at the UN to fully occupy and settle Gaza as much as they wish. I wouldn't be surprised if he would order more airstrikes himself.
Contrary to what some have said above this is not the first genocide that America has supported or perpetrated or tolerated. Not by far. If we work hard we can try and make it the last.
It is a conscious strategy of the right wing to make politics so disgusting and abject that decent people refuse to engage. A democracy where decent people don't vote is going to do horrible things.
posted by being_quiet at 12:16 PM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
Contrary to what some have said above this is not the first genocide that America has supported or perpetrated or tolerated. Not by far. If we work hard we can try and make it the last.
It is a conscious strategy of the right wing to make politics so disgusting and abject that decent people refuse to engage. A democracy where decent people don't vote is going to do horrible things.
posted by being_quiet at 12:16 PM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
> I can only gently suggest that of the two candidates, only one might be talked out of that position. With the other there is no chance whatsoever.
She has 10 days.
posted by constraint at 12:18 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
She has 10 days.
posted by constraint at 12:18 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
we've never given military, monetary, political, and diplomatic aid to a genocide
As an aside, I can't let this slide, the USA has always done genocide.
posted by Mirth at 12:19 PM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
As an aside, I can't let this slide, the USA has always done genocide.
posted by Mirth at 12:19 PM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
Sadly, one where people do vote is already doing horrible things, and has been for quite a while.
This isn't an argument for not voting. But I'm not sure there's much correlation when one of each set of people who stand for unelectable things will always get in, and won't change the things they stand for
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:20 PM on October 25, 2024
This isn't an argument for not voting. But I'm not sure there's much correlation when one of each set of people who stand for unelectable things will always get in, and won't change the things they stand for
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 12:20 PM on October 25, 2024
She has 10 days.
I'm talking about after she is elected. If she is not elected in 10 days, then we lose any chance of there being someone in power who would consider that option in the first place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:21 PM on October 25, 2024 [16 favorites]
I'm talking about after she is elected. If she is not elected in 10 days, then we lose any chance of there being someone in power who would consider that option in the first place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:21 PM on October 25, 2024 [16 favorites]
After she's elected we lose all our leverage. 🤷
posted by constraint at 12:22 PM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by constraint at 12:22 PM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
She does have a frankly terrible strategic position: she's still Biden's VP, and to come out strongly enough against her boss's policies to make a difference to the sort of people who fancy themselves morally superior is Just Not Done in politics. She really can't just say, even if she wants to, that we should stop supporting Israel: I know that's unsatisfying, but those are the rules of politics. I rather suspect that there are an awful lot of other people poised to be in positions of power within the Harris administration who aren't of Biden's generation and thus aren't as reflexively pro-Israel, and that once she's inaugurated she might well make real changes. But she can't call for them now, and not only for fear of backlash from AIPAC.
And I don't think it's remotely true that leverage is lost after she's elected/inaugurated. If every Muslim in Michigan held their noses and voted for her, they could legitimately say "we put you over the top, now treat us as allies" and get some movement—but if they stay home or vote for Jill Putin, then they've always already lost any chance at leverage. The whole "you have to EARN my vote" thing is cripplingly naïve with respect to how politics work: politicians cater to their supporters, not to people who threaten not to vote for them.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:30 PM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
And I don't think it's remotely true that leverage is lost after she's elected/inaugurated. If every Muslim in Michigan held their noses and voted for her, they could legitimately say "we put you over the top, now treat us as allies" and get some movement—but if they stay home or vote for Jill Putin, then they've always already lost any chance at leverage. The whole "you have to EARN my vote" thing is cripplingly naïve with respect to how politics work: politicians cater to their supporters, not to people who threaten not to vote for them.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:30 PM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
After she's elected we lose all our leverage.
You don't think she'd want a second term?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:37 PM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
You don't think she'd want a second term?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:37 PM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
And why has a thread that's about how Trump is literally a fascist turned into the 897th re-hashing of Harris' I/P policy?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:39 PM on October 25, 2024 [42 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:39 PM on October 25, 2024 [42 favorites]
As I've said before, Republican presidents have worsenned almost monotonically since Eisenhower, with the two exceptions being the incomparable Nixon-to-Ford and the improvement Reagan-to-Bush1. America shall have a worse president than Trump in 4 or 8 years. Good luck!
“The Lord Leto says that when it was denied an external enemy, the all-male army always turned against its own population. Always.”
― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
Actually modern western millitaries resist this historic trend remarkably well, but they transfer military equipment like crazy, especially in the US. In fact, Hitler's SS was formally part of the Nazi party, right?
American has slowly over decades entrenched its own SS in the form of local police forces, so some future fascist POTUS would achieve these goals by blessing greater abuse by local police. Absuing Leonard Cohen's song "democracy fascism is coming to the USA" eventually, for many reasons, but maybe not next year under Trump or Vance. ;)
posted by jeffburdges at 12:40 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
“The Lord Leto says that when it was denied an external enemy, the all-male army always turned against its own population. Always.”
― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
Actually modern western millitaries resist this historic trend remarkably well, but they transfer military equipment like crazy, especially in the US. In fact, Hitler's SS was formally part of the Nazi party, right?
American has slowly over decades entrenched its own SS in the form of local police forces, so some future fascist POTUS would achieve these goals by blessing greater abuse by local police. Absuing Leonard Cohen's song "
posted by jeffburdges at 12:40 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
politicians cater to their supporters, not to people who threaten not to vote for them.
Tell that to Michigan's Muslim population.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:46 PM on October 25, 2024
Tell that to Michigan's Muslim population.
posted by pattern juggler at 12:46 PM on October 25, 2024
If we're really doing this, can someone point me to examples of accelerationism working? Of people helping to sink the candidate closest to their views over a critical issue and then seeing improvement in that party's handling of that issue and implement changes on it later after the person furthest from their beliefs has been empowered? If there are examples of that, how bad was the blowback on innocent people in the interim? I may just be ignorant, and probably there are some examples, but I am damned if I can think of any at all. And conceptually, for me at least, that puts "Vote against Harris if you care about Gaza" into fantastical thinking territory.
This isn't a "You can't because there aren't" challenge. This is a "I can't take your logic as a given if nothing like what you think will be the result has ever happened before, so help me understand." I'm not intending this as passive aggression. I am in full-on autistic person speaking very literally mode. Help me understand why this would work.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:07 PM on October 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
This isn't a "You can't because there aren't" challenge. This is a "I can't take your logic as a given if nothing like what you think will be the result has ever happened before, so help me understand." I'm not intending this as passive aggression. I am in full-on autistic person speaking very literally mode. Help me understand why this would work.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:07 PM on October 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
"Accelerationism" doesn't mean making things worse until people revolt. No one in this thread is advocating either that, nor real accelerationism (which is dumb as well, but still wouldn't make one vote for Trump.)
posted by pattern juggler at 1:09 PM on October 25, 2024
posted by pattern juggler at 1:09 PM on October 25, 2024
Well, they're not directly advocating for accelerationism, but they sure seem cavalier about the consequences of their "principles", and the goal of somehow compelling change is pretty explicit. Walks like a duck, quacks like one, too.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
Let's say I am 100% wrong on word choice there with accelerationism and semantically, I am an idiot. No problem. Wasn't the crux of my question at all. And honestly, a good well, actually is par ofr the course on MeFi, particularly when it drives us off of the point.
My focus is on the other half of my question.
Are there any cases we know of where Candidate A is markedly bad on an issue, but Candidate B is likely worse and people affected by Issue A declined to back Candidate A and ended up benefitting when Candidate B won?
We've got a Candidate A who says it matters to her that the suffering stops but is part of an administration knowingly enabling the suffering and a Candidate B who says we should give them (Israel) what they need to finish the job ("the job" presumably being genocide.) The latter is literally up to his eyeballs in Christian Nationalism, a big chunk of which is an apocalyptic belief that Israel must prevail to bring on the end times.
I really need someone to help me understand why, for any reason other than they simply say so, we would believe standing in the way of candidate A and effectively helping candidate B win could be a good idea.
Again, this is not passive aggression. I literally mean the words I am typing. If you believe this can work, please share with me the examples that lead you to this belief.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:19 PM on October 25, 2024 [12 favorites]
My focus is on the other half of my question.
Are there any cases we know of where Candidate A is markedly bad on an issue, but Candidate B is likely worse and people affected by Issue A declined to back Candidate A and ended up benefitting when Candidate B won?
We've got a Candidate A who says it matters to her that the suffering stops but is part of an administration knowingly enabling the suffering and a Candidate B who says we should give them (Israel) what they need to finish the job ("the job" presumably being genocide.) The latter is literally up to his eyeballs in Christian Nationalism, a big chunk of which is an apocalyptic belief that Israel must prevail to bring on the end times.
I really need someone to help me understand why, for any reason other than they simply say so, we would believe standing in the way of candidate A and effectively helping candidate B win could be a good idea.
Again, this is not passive aggression. I literally mean the words I am typing. If you believe this can work, please share with me the examples that lead you to this belief.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:19 PM on October 25, 2024 [12 favorites]
The anti-genocide movement is too small to be worth courting in the slightest way, lest the vast throngs of bloodthirsty Democratic voters defect to Trump.
But the tiny fraction of that movement that might actually give up on voting in the presidential election entirely are so significant that their not voting has serious consequences.
The enemy is always overwhelmingly threatening and contemptibly weak.
Are there any cases we know of where Candidate A is markedly bad on an issue, but Candidate B is likely worse and people affected by Issue A declined to back Candidate A and ended up benefitting if Candidate B won?
This makes the assumption that people are not voting because of a pragmatic end goal, I imagine most people who abstain from voting will do so because they are exhausted, traumatized, and demoralized to the point of not giving a damn any more.
Others are refusing because they believe in the claims of liberal democracy and genuinely belief their vote is an expression of political will and refuse to assent to mass murder, even on the grounds that the other guy is worse, and that there is no other pragmatic option. They'd rather vote for a third party and hope that the system works. (It doesn't, but we raise kids to believe in this garbage.)
And some people are simply so disgusted and angry, that they cannot bring themselves to pull the lever for someone who helped take the life of their loved ones, and to hell with the rest of us for letting it happen.
posted by pattern juggler at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
But the tiny fraction of that movement that might actually give up on voting in the presidential election entirely are so significant that their not voting has serious consequences.
The enemy is always overwhelmingly threatening and contemptibly weak.
Are there any cases we know of where Candidate A is markedly bad on an issue, but Candidate B is likely worse and people affected by Issue A declined to back Candidate A and ended up benefitting if Candidate B won?
This makes the assumption that people are not voting because of a pragmatic end goal, I imagine most people who abstain from voting will do so because they are exhausted, traumatized, and demoralized to the point of not giving a damn any more.
Others are refusing because they believe in the claims of liberal democracy and genuinely belief their vote is an expression of political will and refuse to assent to mass murder, even on the grounds that the other guy is worse, and that there is no other pragmatic option. They'd rather vote for a third party and hope that the system works. (It doesn't, but we raise kids to believe in this garbage.)
And some people are simply so disgusted and angry, that they cannot bring themselves to pull the lever for someone who helped take the life of their loved ones, and to hell with the rest of us for letting it happen.
posted by pattern juggler at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
The jaguars are so hungry for faces right now.
Once he wins there are whole bunch of people I never want to hear complain about a single one of his fucking policies or actions ever again.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
Once he wins there are whole bunch of people I never want to hear complain about a single one of his fucking policies or actions ever again.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:27 PM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
Once he wins there are whole bunch of people I never want to hear complain about a single one of his fucking policies or actions ever again.
You probably won't, because they will likely be among the people he will turn our army against first.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
You probably won't, because they will likely be among the people he will turn our army against first.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Oh, and as an aside, I just had a friend who's mom lives in Florida tell me, "She told me she's voting for Trump because she wants to support Israel."
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
If Trump wins, the blame will fall to the candidates and party that lost to him, not the people they failed to convince to vote for them. If Harris and Walz are still losing votes from Israel hardliners to Trump, but are willing to cut into their own base to try to woo those hardliners back, that is on them.
posted by pattern juggler at 1:33 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by pattern juggler at 1:33 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
If Trump wins, the blame will fall to the candidates and party that lost to him, not the people they failed to convince to vote for them.
In terms of the pure horse race of it all, sure. But if you vote against the big party candidate who is bad on your core issue, helping the other big party candidate who is super fucking terrible on your issue to win, there will certainly be servings not just of blame but of practical fucking consequences available for you to feast upon as well. Life in this country is fucking ongoing as are its policies and their effects, and these do not end after the first Sunday's worth of op-eds and spin shows. So at election time, you can either nudge them slightly better in a way you find repellent or shove the fuck out of them in the wrong direction. I wish it did not work that way, but it really seems like it does.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:50 PM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
In terms of the pure horse race of it all, sure. But if you vote against the big party candidate who is bad on your core issue, helping the other big party candidate who is super fucking terrible on your issue to win, there will certainly be servings not just of blame but of practical fucking consequences available for you to feast upon as well. Life in this country is fucking ongoing as are its policies and their effects, and these do not end after the first Sunday's worth of op-eds and spin shows. So at election time, you can either nudge them slightly better in a way you find repellent or shove the fuck out of them in the wrong direction. I wish it did not work that way, but it really seems like it does.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:50 PM on October 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
You are absolutely wrong about where the blame will fall. I remember being young and naive and voting Nader in 2000(not in Florida thankfully). There were a TON of people blaming the green party for Gore's loss. Also, the Democratic party did not take that loss and decide they should do more to court Green party voters. In fact, they lurched rightward with the advent of the "Blue Dogs" (conservative pro-war democrats). How did the Blue Dogs make the Democrats veer right? By winning elections.
posted by being_quiet at 1:51 PM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by being_quiet at 1:51 PM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
politicians cater to their supporters, not to people who threaten not to vote for them.
Tell that to Michigan's Muslim population.
In MI we actually will cater to Muslims on occasion, but somehow only on those issues where their positions just happen to dovetail with those of RW whites. Like local bans on Pride flags, say.
Funny how that works, no?
posted by non canadian guy at 1:52 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Tell that to Michigan's Muslim population.
In MI we actually will cater to Muslims on occasion, but somehow only on those issues where their positions just happen to dovetail with those of RW whites. Like local bans on Pride flags, say.
Funny how that works, no?
posted by non canadian guy at 1:52 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Chinese hackers are said to have targeted phones used by Trump and Vance (NYT gift)
posted by box at 1:53 PM on October 25, 2024
posted by box at 1:53 PM on October 25, 2024
American has slowly over decades entrenched its own SS in the form of local police forces, so some future fascist POTUS would achieve these goals by blessing greater abuse by local police.
You don’t say.
posted by non canadian guy at 1:58 PM on October 25, 2024
You don’t say.
posted by non canadian guy at 1:58 PM on October 25, 2024
Two possible outcomes for this election:
1) US gets fascism, Palestinian genocide continues
2) US does NOT get fascism, Palestinian genocide continues
I for one am not indifferent between these possible outcomes, therefore I will vote.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:08 PM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
1) US gets fascism, Palestinian genocide continues
2) US does NOT get fascism, Palestinian genocide continues
I for one am not indifferent between these possible outcomes, therefore I will vote.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:08 PM on October 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
But if you vote against the big party candidate who is bad on your core issue, helping the other big party candidate who is super fucking terrible on your issue to win, there will certainly be servings not just of blame but of practical fucking consequences available for you to feast upon as well.
If you are making a pragmatic argument that Harris is the lesser evil, I don't think there is much of an argument against that. That is why I voted for Harris last week.
But even though we know Trump is worse, that doesn't remove the obligation on Harris to actually get people to vote for her. Like it or not, scandals, gaffes, and inability to generate enthusiasm count, wven when the actual binary choice is dead obvious.
If it came to light, for example, that Harris had taken significant bribes from organized crime while attorney general to let them commit crimes with impunity, that would not make me want to change my vote. But I guarantee you it would cost her a lot of other votes. None of us would be shocked to see her poll numbers drop hard after that. Even if Trump is more criminal, only being able to say "but look at the other guy" is no way to win.
I'd say what the Biden administration has done with regards to Gaza is a hell of a lot worse than taking bribes. Is it any surprise it has hurt the second highest ranked person in that administration? That's why I say if they lose it will be their own fault. Not because voters shouldn't have voted for them anyway, but because it is their job not to alienate voters.
If this is some cold blooded calculation on the campaign's part in which they decided the lost votes of people disgusted by this genocide and all the lives we've helped ruin or end in Gaza (and now Lebanon and the West Bank) are worth trading for the votes of the moat rabid pro-Israel hawks then they have to live with the costs of that calculation. Either they are right and the votes they lost don't matter, or they are wrong and they've destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives and handed the world's largest military to fascists. Either way it's their call to make. We just get to live with it.
posted by pattern juggler at 2:11 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
If you are making a pragmatic argument that Harris is the lesser evil, I don't think there is much of an argument against that. That is why I voted for Harris last week.
But even though we know Trump is worse, that doesn't remove the obligation on Harris to actually get people to vote for her. Like it or not, scandals, gaffes, and inability to generate enthusiasm count, wven when the actual binary choice is dead obvious.
If it came to light, for example, that Harris had taken significant bribes from organized crime while attorney general to let them commit crimes with impunity, that would not make me want to change my vote. But I guarantee you it would cost her a lot of other votes. None of us would be shocked to see her poll numbers drop hard after that. Even if Trump is more criminal, only being able to say "but look at the other guy" is no way to win.
I'd say what the Biden administration has done with regards to Gaza is a hell of a lot worse than taking bribes. Is it any surprise it has hurt the second highest ranked person in that administration? That's why I say if they lose it will be their own fault. Not because voters shouldn't have voted for them anyway, but because it is their job not to alienate voters.
If this is some cold blooded calculation on the campaign's part in which they decided the lost votes of people disgusted by this genocide and all the lives we've helped ruin or end in Gaza (and now Lebanon and the West Bank) are worth trading for the votes of the moat rabid pro-Israel hawks then they have to live with the costs of that calculation. Either they are right and the votes they lost don't matter, or they are wrong and they've destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives and handed the world's largest military to fascists. Either way it's their call to make. We just get to live with it.
posted by pattern juggler at 2:11 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
I think we're probably reasonably close on what we actually believe, but you're looking at it from the POV of how the Harris campaign handles this, whereas I am focused on how a protest vote in this case is a poison pill for the person casting it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
PatternJuggler, I absolutely respect the position you come from as you absolutely have the moral high ground (FWIW). I've said before that I do not believe in hell but Joe Biden does and he's going there immediately upon death. The US Govt is horrid for facilitating the genocide.
That being said, DirtyOldTown raised what seems something really freaking important and isn't meant to castigate anyone (sorry if this is inaccurate reflection DOT).
Ie Say not voting for Candidate A - bog standard political supporting for various reasons a pretty terrible position - helps the election of Candidate B, - an increasingly demented psychopath out for immediately bloodshed - which he'll get harming and killing countless innocent people under his dictatorship. Does withholding the vote ever result in Candidate B being 'better' on the issue for which the vote for Candidate A was withheld? It seem a really important question, if maybe hard to answer.
Dont mean to put you (or anyone) on the spot, but DOT's question really struck a chord.
IMO if he regains power on the terms on offer, it's going to be so so so bad for, well, everyone, including those Palestinians currently suffering genocide.
posted by WatTylerJr at 2:22 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
That being said, DirtyOldTown raised what seems something really freaking important and isn't meant to castigate anyone (sorry if this is inaccurate reflection DOT).
Ie Say not voting for Candidate A - bog standard political supporting for various reasons a pretty terrible position - helps the election of Candidate B, - an increasingly demented psychopath out for immediately bloodshed - which he'll get harming and killing countless innocent people under his dictatorship. Does withholding the vote ever result in Candidate B being 'better' on the issue for which the vote for Candidate A was withheld? It seem a really important question, if maybe hard to answer.
Dont mean to put you (or anyone) on the spot, but DOT's question really struck a chord.
IMO if he regains power on the terms on offer, it's going to be so so so bad for, well, everyone, including those Palestinians currently suffering genocide.
posted by WatTylerJr at 2:22 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
Regardless of site policy, mockery is underated and should be deployed as needed
posted by lescour at 2:27 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by lescour at 2:27 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
I think people should vote for Harris to defeat Trump.
What I object to is people acting dismissive or outraged about people who don't vote for Harris as if they bear more blame for refusing to vote for participants in a genocide than the candidate and party, (and the hypothetical pro-genocide voter they are beholden to) do for making that the only option to defeat Trump.
posted by pattern juggler at 2:30 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
What I object to is people acting dismissive or outraged about people who don't vote for Harris as if they bear more blame for refusing to vote for participants in a genocide than the candidate and party, (and the hypothetical pro-genocide voter they are beholden to) do for making that the only option to defeat Trump.
posted by pattern juggler at 2:30 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
These are horrifying times.
My cousin and I were to a large extent raised by our grandparents, who were refugees, survivors and also resistance fighters. Our family struggles with generational trauma -- it never goes away -- and our mothers couldn't figure out how to parent when we were born. For that exact reason, my gran was very critical of the Israeli government. She understood how Palestinian mothers and grandmothers were struggling with fear, grief and pain similar to her own.
Over the years, my granddad was very preoccupied with mass-psychosis and big events. His main objection to the hippies was not their politics or mores, but the festivals and rallies. You see, Hitler and Mussolini were seen as ridiculous in their own time, and granddad wanted to understand why some people were attracted to these clownish dictators. We are told that they made the trains run on time, but that was an excuse made by conservative pundits, similar to when people today claim that Trump is good at the economy and inflation. It's not true and never was. Franco was a different, and far more scary case, and it is no coincidence that the project 2025 people admire him and his. But he was still a rotten ruler, who kept Spain in a backward state for two generations. Did the trains run on time? I have no idea. But Spain was like a third-world country in the middle of Europe, with extreme poverty and inequality, lacking even the most basic services.
Fascists make alliances with businesses. During the 1930s and -40s it was one set of businesses, now it is a different set. It was never everyone. Don't be confused because Trump is engaging with other types of businesses than Hitler was. Trump doesn't need Hugo Boss.
posted by mumimor at 2:32 PM on October 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
My cousin and I were to a large extent raised by our grandparents, who were refugees, survivors and also resistance fighters. Our family struggles with generational trauma -- it never goes away -- and our mothers couldn't figure out how to parent when we were born. For that exact reason, my gran was very critical of the Israeli government. She understood how Palestinian mothers and grandmothers were struggling with fear, grief and pain similar to her own.
Over the years, my granddad was very preoccupied with mass-psychosis and big events. His main objection to the hippies was not their politics or mores, but the festivals and rallies. You see, Hitler and Mussolini were seen as ridiculous in their own time, and granddad wanted to understand why some people were attracted to these clownish dictators. We are told that they made the trains run on time, but that was an excuse made by conservative pundits, similar to when people today claim that Trump is good at the economy and inflation. It's not true and never was. Franco was a different, and far more scary case, and it is no coincidence that the project 2025 people admire him and his. But he was still a rotten ruler, who kept Spain in a backward state for two generations. Did the trains run on time? I have no idea. But Spain was like a third-world country in the middle of Europe, with extreme poverty and inequality, lacking even the most basic services.
Fascists make alliances with businesses. During the 1930s and -40s it was one set of businesses, now it is a different set. It was never everyone. Don't be confused because Trump is engaging with other types of businesses than Hitler was. Trump doesn't need Hugo Boss.
posted by mumimor at 2:32 PM on October 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
There are several systems of morals which are not mutually compatible. The argument we keep having here is not really about whether one should vote for Harris or not, it's about whether one should adopt a consequentialist point of view when making the decision. It's a fairly self-explanatory name; the morality of a choice depends on its consequences.
People who argue against voting Harris are in my experience adopting the deontological point of view, that things are right or they are wrong in and of themselves.
Both of these are legitimate and have strong arguments in their favor. Continuing the argument about whether one should vote Harris is sub rosa arguing that one should change their moral theory. In other words, almost certainly doomed to fail. Just fyi.
posted by dbx at 2:43 PM on October 25, 2024 [16 favorites]
People who argue against voting Harris are in my experience adopting the deontological point of view, that things are right or they are wrong in and of themselves.
Both of these are legitimate and have strong arguments in their favor. Continuing the argument about whether one should vote Harris is sub rosa arguing that one should change their moral theory. In other words, almost certainly doomed to fail. Just fyi.
posted by dbx at 2:43 PM on October 25, 2024 [16 favorites]
If Trump wins, the blame will fall to the candidates and party that lost to him, not the people they failed to convince to vote for them
I'll be very upset when he wins, but the people I'm going to blame for it are the fucking Republicans. I'm hoping we can skip the "if only Kamala had done..." discussions here if that comes to pass, but I sure know better.
Also not looking forward to the big papers and new outlets, "Why did they vote for Trump?" articles. One they voted that way because they are assholes. Two because you shouldn't have "both sides"-ed it, and told the truth instead of worrying they might have called you biased. Biased toward the truth is a good thing.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
I'll be very upset when he wins, but the people I'm going to blame for it are the fucking Republicans. I'm hoping we can skip the "if only Kamala had done..." discussions here if that comes to pass, but I sure know better.
Also not looking forward to the big papers and new outlets, "Why did they vote for Trump?" articles. One they voted that way because they are assholes. Two because you shouldn't have "both sides"-ed it, and told the truth instead of worrying they might have called you biased. Biased toward the truth is a good thing.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
What I object to is people acting dismissive or outraged about people who don't vote for Harris as if they bear more blame for refusing to vote for participants in a genocide than the candidate and party, (and the hypothetical pro-genocide voter they are beholden to) do for making that the only option to defeat Trump.
What I object to is the human flaw (not calling out you specifically, pattern juggler, as you did not do this:) that makes people do dumb shit, like vote for Stein because of Palestine even though that's tantamount to aid to Trump, who is much worse. Because some function of the human psyche makes them see that as a valid option, partly (I suspect) because it feels a little like a tiny pinprick to the administration that has lent so much aid to Israel. The practical reality is that you can either vote for Harris or you can do something else, and all the something elses (Stein, staying on the couch, whatever) help Trump regain the Presidency. This will certainly not result in a better outcome for Palestine, so what the fuck are such people trying to achieve, really? I think the answer is that they really want something selfish, the tiny psychic victory of feeling like they stuck it to the administration in some small way.
I think that this dynamic plays out in so many arenas, not just foreign policy. Democrats have for a long time taken for granted the support of many blocs (PoC, LGTBQ+, the list goes on) because they rightly -- if cynically -- reason that those blocs more or less have to support them due to the Republicans being much worse for those blocs. Of course that dynamic exists on the other side too, I just happen to find it hard to spare much concern for say the racists who feel bound to vote Republican even if they wish the Republicans could somehow be more racist.
posted by axiom at 2:53 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
What I object to is the human flaw (not calling out you specifically, pattern juggler, as you did not do this:) that makes people do dumb shit, like vote for Stein because of Palestine even though that's tantamount to aid to Trump, who is much worse. Because some function of the human psyche makes them see that as a valid option, partly (I suspect) because it feels a little like a tiny pinprick to the administration that has lent so much aid to Israel. The practical reality is that you can either vote for Harris or you can do something else, and all the something elses (Stein, staying on the couch, whatever) help Trump regain the Presidency. This will certainly not result in a better outcome for Palestine, so what the fuck are such people trying to achieve, really? I think the answer is that they really want something selfish, the tiny psychic victory of feeling like they stuck it to the administration in some small way.
I think that this dynamic plays out in so many arenas, not just foreign policy. Democrats have for a long time taken for granted the support of many blocs (PoC, LGTBQ+, the list goes on) because they rightly -- if cynically -- reason that those blocs more or less have to support them due to the Republicans being much worse for those blocs. Of course that dynamic exists on the other side too, I just happen to find it hard to spare much concern for say the racists who feel bound to vote Republican even if they wish the Republicans could somehow be more racist.
posted by axiom at 2:53 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
I'm just so impressed with the moral clarity of some folks on here and elsewhere online, who are apparently so passionate about the cause of Palestinian rights, that they are able to totally ignore what Palestinian-rights groups are *actually saying* (which again, is that people need to vote strategically to stop Trump), and arrive at the conclusion that the true moral path is to sit back and passively support the Hitler-worshipping Fascist guy who wants to let Israel annex Gaza and the West Bank. With friends like these, right?
If your solidarity doesn't include *actually listening* to what the affected people are saying, then maybe you never really cared about Palestinian lives. Maybe you just care about your ego, and your unimpeachable ideological purity.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:58 PM on October 25, 2024 [20 favorites]
If your solidarity doesn't include *actually listening* to what the affected people are saying, then maybe you never really cared about Palestinian lives. Maybe you just care about your ego, and your unimpeachable ideological purity.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:58 PM on October 25, 2024 [20 favorites]
Democrats have for a long time taken for granted the support of many blocs (PoC, LGTBQ+, the list goes on) because they rightly -- if cynically -- reason that those blocs more or less have to support them due to the Republicans being much worse for those blocs.
It can also be hard for Democrats to make progress on individual goals because it's a party that's a coalition of interest groups that don't always agree on goals and priorities. It's much easier to pay lip service to environmentalism, for example, than to make real progress when you also have to satisfy members who see the economy as more important.
Republicans don't have the same problem because they mostly appeal to interest groups whose interests are based in hatred, fear, and power. And rich people who are happy to see the rest of the world burn.
posted by rikschell at 3:07 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
It can also be hard for Democrats to make progress on individual goals because it's a party that's a coalition of interest groups that don't always agree on goals and priorities. It's much easier to pay lip service to environmentalism, for example, than to make real progress when you also have to satisfy members who see the economy as more important.
Republicans don't have the same problem because they mostly appeal to interest groups whose interests are based in hatred, fear, and power. And rich people who are happy to see the rest of the world burn.
posted by rikschell at 3:07 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
it's really cool how the hypothetical protest voters can so seamlessly morph from privileged brocialists to the top of the list for trump's camps and back again so swiftly
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 3:13 PM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 3:13 PM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
The whole point about voting is that we get to decide for ourselves if we are going to vote and for whom. This thread is about Trump, in theory. I would love it if we could stop insulting each other. It’s OK to disagree but this is MetaFilter, not the situation room. Maybe chill a wee bit? Just a thought.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
Quakers run their meetings differently from most. They require consensus when a group decision is to be made. If a proposal is on the floor and a person feels strongly that they cannot support it, they can "block" the proposal. One person blocking the proposal is enough to keep it from moving forward. People take turns speaking on the issue, and blockers are given time and space to consider or change their mind. If, in the end, a blocker will not budge, the proposal simply fails and the group must find a new proposal on which to find consensus.
It's a beautiful thing to see, and if it sounds to you like it wouldn't work you're wrong -- it works wonderfully for relatively small groups. Requiring consensus gets group buy-in like you wouldn't believe; literally everyone must agree to every course of action undertaken by the group. Of course it would be utterly impossible to do something like that on a nationwide scale; you'll never find a compromise that convinces all the blockers to join the consensus.
In a Quaker business meeting, there is a third option, besides standing with the proposal and blocking it -- one can also "stand aside". It's like an abstention but laden with more meaning; an abstention in a majority vote system can mean many things, such as "I don't have enough information to decide, but I trust the judgment of the group", or "this is not my business", or "I was sick that day", or you name it. For a Quaker, standing aside means, roughly: "I disagree with the proposal but not strongly enough to block it."
I think this sentiment would match what many of the MeFi (and my personal circle as well) presidential vote abstainers are feeling right now. Of course they're not voting for Trump, but they also cannot countenance to join the consensus.
The thing is: this approach works very well in a small group dynamic, for the same reason blocking works well. It's a use of one's voice that the community hears and understands. But crucially, the community has also already bought into the idea that they want to achieve consensus if possible, and so its lack is felt strongly, even when a course of action is nonetheless adopted. That is simply not the case for a US presidential election. Standing aside (abstaining) will not be heard and felt in this way. There is no community desire for consensus, and in fact there are some evil fucks who are out there doing their best to prevent it. When a person announces they are standing aside, the US election machine isn't going to pause and look for a compromise position. It's going to count the tens of millions of other votes and figure out who won the election.
But this is a consequentialist argument. I'm talking about what will be the result of the choice to abstain. For the folks like mrjohnmuller who (presumably in good faith) don't understand how a person could reach a different conclusion than their own, this is how: None of what I said above matters if you don't already believe that consequences should determine moral choices. The Palestinian rights groups -- like you, and like I happily will and have -- they are making an argument from consequences. That argument simply won't be convincing to someone who doesn't accept the framework.
Personally I am strongly consequentialist when it comes to national politics. I find what I wrote above about the difference between small and large group dynamics very convincing. For anybody who really wants to sway others, one way or the other, I recommend thinking about the moral framework the other person is using first and foremost. And know that what seems like the obviously correct one to you may very well seem utterly foreign to the person you're trying to convince.
posted by dbx at 3:50 PM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
It's a beautiful thing to see, and if it sounds to you like it wouldn't work you're wrong -- it works wonderfully for relatively small groups. Requiring consensus gets group buy-in like you wouldn't believe; literally everyone must agree to every course of action undertaken by the group. Of course it would be utterly impossible to do something like that on a nationwide scale; you'll never find a compromise that convinces all the blockers to join the consensus.
In a Quaker business meeting, there is a third option, besides standing with the proposal and blocking it -- one can also "stand aside". It's like an abstention but laden with more meaning; an abstention in a majority vote system can mean many things, such as "I don't have enough information to decide, but I trust the judgment of the group", or "this is not my business", or "I was sick that day", or you name it. For a Quaker, standing aside means, roughly: "I disagree with the proposal but not strongly enough to block it."
I think this sentiment would match what many of the MeFi (and my personal circle as well) presidential vote abstainers are feeling right now. Of course they're not voting for Trump, but they also cannot countenance to join the consensus.
The thing is: this approach works very well in a small group dynamic, for the same reason blocking works well. It's a use of one's voice that the community hears and understands. But crucially, the community has also already bought into the idea that they want to achieve consensus if possible, and so its lack is felt strongly, even when a course of action is nonetheless adopted. That is simply not the case for a US presidential election. Standing aside (abstaining) will not be heard and felt in this way. There is no community desire for consensus, and in fact there are some evil fucks who are out there doing their best to prevent it. When a person announces they are standing aside, the US election machine isn't going to pause and look for a compromise position. It's going to count the tens of millions of other votes and figure out who won the election.
But this is a consequentialist argument. I'm talking about what will be the result of the choice to abstain. For the folks like mrjohnmuller who (presumably in good faith) don't understand how a person could reach a different conclusion than their own, this is how: None of what I said above matters if you don't already believe that consequences should determine moral choices. The Palestinian rights groups -- like you, and like I happily will and have -- they are making an argument from consequences. That argument simply won't be convincing to someone who doesn't accept the framework.
Personally I am strongly consequentialist when it comes to national politics. I find what I wrote above about the difference between small and large group dynamics very convincing. For anybody who really wants to sway others, one way or the other, I recommend thinking about the moral framework the other person is using first and foremost. And know that what seems like the obviously correct one to you may very well seem utterly foreign to the person you're trying to convince.
posted by dbx at 3:50 PM on October 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
Ah, non canadian guy raises another option -- you can also just assume they're secretly racist.
I'm being glib but yeah I have neighbors who are secretly racist, I get it. The thing is, they are not the people who are suggesting they want to vote for Harris if only she could take the obviously morally correct position. And I very seriously doubt that people like pattern juggler, who has clearly and articulately staked out a position opposite to mine, are being secretly racist.
posted by dbx at 4:00 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm being glib but yeah I have neighbors who are secretly racist, I get it. The thing is, they are not the people who are suggesting they want to vote for Harris if only she could take the obviously morally correct position. And I very seriously doubt that people like pattern juggler, who has clearly and articulately staked out a position opposite to mine, are being secretly racist.
posted by dbx at 4:00 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
dbx, I appreciate your words Friend! I will take them to heart.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:01 PM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:01 PM on October 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
I'm just so impressed with the moral clarity of some folks on here and elsewhere online, who are apparently so passionate about the cause of Palestinian rights, that they are able to totally ignore what Palestinian-rights groups are *actually saying*
LOL, if this election is anything other than a Reaganesque 500+ electoral vote blowout, most of the liberals on this site are absolutely going to spend the next four years demonizing even these groups--and anyone else who criticizes Democrats while voting for them--as "quislings." It's the exact same situation as people who are saying to work to elect Harris and then try to move her left when they don't actually mean it, they're just waiting to yell at you for trying to move her left at any point at all.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:02 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
LOL, if this election is anything other than a Reaganesque 500+ electoral vote blowout, most of the liberals on this site are absolutely going to spend the next four years demonizing even these groups--and anyone else who criticizes Democrats while voting for them--as "quislings." It's the exact same situation as people who are saying to work to elect Harris and then try to move her left when they don't actually mean it, they're just waiting to yell at you for trying to move her left at any point at all.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:02 PM on October 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
Sorry, last post in my little burst there -- pattern juggler clearly describes a position opposite to mine but doesn't actually claim it; in fact appears to disclaim it. Didn't mean to put words in their mouth, sorry.
posted by dbx at 4:06 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by dbx at 4:06 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
Neither Israel or Palestine will ever have our back in any meaningful way if there is a civil war in the US. To be honest, likely, no one will.
That is why neither one factors into my voting decision.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:39 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
That is why neither one factors into my voting decision.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:39 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. It's okay to disagree with other people, but let's avoid questioning the authenticity of someone's stated positions, invite them to speak for themselves instead.
posted by loup (staff) at 4:59 PM on October 25, 2024
posted by loup (staff) at 4:59 PM on October 25, 2024
I don't agree with, but I can understand people who say they can't vote for Harris because she hasn't taken a strong enough stance against Israel's war against the Palestinians (that is, I understand why they say they can't vote for her, I agree that she hasn't taken a strong enough stance against Israel's war against the Palestinians).
I would like to make this offer if there is anyone who is interested in it. If no one is I understand that too.
I live in Illinois, a safe Democratic state. I am planning to vote for Harris. However, if there is any Mefite who lives in a swing state who has at least once before today expressed doubt about voting for Harris in this election, I will trade my vote with you. If you will vote for Harris in your state, I'll withhold my vote for her in Illinois. I will even vote for the candidate for President of your choice, including write-ins, including TFG if you want, so help me God. I think this would allow one to send a signal to Harris by reducing the national vote total while still doing as much as possible with one vote to prevent the triumph of fascism in the US.
I don't know if there is any practical, ethical, and legal way to verify or enforce this arrangement. I suspect it will need to be on the honor system, though I'm open to suggestions. But if anyone is interested, please MeMail me.
posted by Reverend John at 6:26 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
I would like to make this offer if there is anyone who is interested in it. If no one is I understand that too.
I live in Illinois, a safe Democratic state. I am planning to vote for Harris. However, if there is any Mefite who lives in a swing state who has at least once before today expressed doubt about voting for Harris in this election, I will trade my vote with you. If you will vote for Harris in your state, I'll withhold my vote for her in Illinois. I will even vote for the candidate for President of your choice, including write-ins, including TFG if you want, so help me God. I think this would allow one to send a signal to Harris by reducing the national vote total while still doing as much as possible with one vote to prevent the triumph of fascism in the US.
I don't know if there is any practical, ethical, and legal way to verify or enforce this arrangement. I suspect it will need to be on the honor system, though I'm open to suggestions. But if anyone is interested, please MeMail me.
posted by Reverend John at 6:26 PM on October 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
ethno-nationalism, forced deportations, banning milk made out of nuts
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:05 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:05 PM on October 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
As an aside, I can't let this slide, the USA has always done genocide.
You say that like it's a bad thing. Or maybe a true, evil, and horribly immoral thing.
I'll be very upset when he wins, but the people I'm going to blame for it are the fucking Republicans. I'm hoping we can skip the "if only Kamala had done..." discussions here if that comes to pass, but I sure know better.
Kamala Harris has run a great campaign. (My only note is she should emphasize she needs a Democratic Congress to offset the Green Lantern Theory.) Joe Biden withdrew on July 21. That she's put this campaign together and has a good chance to win just over three months later is astounding, and yet another reason she would be an excellent president.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
You say that like it's a bad thing. Or maybe a true, evil, and horribly immoral thing.
I'll be very upset when he wins, but the people I'm going to blame for it are the fucking Republicans. I'm hoping we can skip the "if only Kamala had done..." discussions here if that comes to pass, but I sure know better.
Kamala Harris has run a great campaign. (My only note is she should emphasize she needs a Democratic Congress to offset the Green Lantern Theory.) Joe Biden withdrew on July 21. That she's put this campaign together and has a good chance to win just over three months later is astounding, and yet another reason she would be an excellent president.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
the United States was still selling oil to the Japanese while they were killing Chinese by the millions.
United States still did business with Nazi Germany even though it was eliminating rights of people at a rapid rate.
America gave a lot of material to the Soviet Union to fight the Germans knowing full well that communism was its greatest enemy before the Nazis.
interestingly, one of the first heads of the Gestapo wasn't even a member of the Nazi party in the beginning. the SS not that effective until it created the Gau system to replace the political intelligence and domestic policing apparatus of the state.
Hitler had his own problem with fascists, it was called the SA. Hitler also had a very big problem with generals, I don't think there was one that did not try to undermine them or tried to kill him. so if Trump said that about Hitler's generals, he might want to check the scar on his ear.
are we all Albert Spears now, are we going to be like Rudolph Hess and just take off one day and never come back.
and it's true that the first killing squads in the East were not the SS but the order police battalions.
were Americans ignorant to these events, most likely most, likely they just didn't care.
history is shown time and time and again that an oppressed American minority that is armed will fight back. the police system in our country is too decentralized for any type of SS formation. we have the strong sheriff system which means almost every county in this country has a top law enforcement official, this is why they are elected.
there's an emblem that adorns our Halls of Congress and is even printed on our money can anybody guess what that is.
we're an ignorant country and maybe just maybe that might work in our favor if it comes down to an authoritarian regime.
I myself personally see nothing but self-interest around me but this is just my perspective, sometimes people are blind to the good things and good works that people do and maybe this is one of the strengths of human behavior in society.
posted by clavdivs at 7:40 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
United States still did business with Nazi Germany even though it was eliminating rights of people at a rapid rate.
America gave a lot of material to the Soviet Union to fight the Germans knowing full well that communism was its greatest enemy before the Nazis.
interestingly, one of the first heads of the Gestapo wasn't even a member of the Nazi party in the beginning. the SS not that effective until it created the Gau system to replace the political intelligence and domestic policing apparatus of the state.
Hitler had his own problem with fascists, it was called the SA. Hitler also had a very big problem with generals, I don't think there was one that did not try to undermine them or tried to kill him. so if Trump said that about Hitler's generals, he might want to check the scar on his ear.
are we all Albert Spears now, are we going to be like Rudolph Hess and just take off one day and never come back.
and it's true that the first killing squads in the East were not the SS but the order police battalions.
were Americans ignorant to these events, most likely most, likely they just didn't care.
history is shown time and time and again that an oppressed American minority that is armed will fight back. the police system in our country is too decentralized for any type of SS formation. we have the strong sheriff system which means almost every county in this country has a top law enforcement official, this is why they are elected.
there's an emblem that adorns our Halls of Congress and is even printed on our money can anybody guess what that is.
we're an ignorant country and maybe just maybe that might work in our favor if it comes down to an authoritarian regime.
I myself personally see nothing but self-interest around me but this is just my perspective, sometimes people are blind to the good things and good works that people do and maybe this is one of the strengths of human behavior in society.
posted by clavdivs at 7:40 PM on October 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
the people I'm going to blame for it are the fucking Republicans
Indeed. Excerpts from Mitch McConnell's upcoming book are starting to leak, including him calling Trump a “sleazeball,” a “narcissist” and saying that the former president is “stupid as well as being ill-tempered.”
Sorry, Mitch, you were his enabler for four years. You don't get let off the hook for holding in the truth until you're out of office.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
Indeed. Excerpts from Mitch McConnell's upcoming book are starting to leak, including him calling Trump a “sleazeball,” a “narcissist” and saying that the former president is “stupid as well as being ill-tempered.”
Sorry, Mitch, you were his enabler for four years. You don't get let off the hook for holding in the truth until you're out of office.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:15 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
Brett Devereaux of the acoup blog goes into a detailed analysis of is Trump fascist? The conclusion will not surprise you, but this is well worth the read to see the parallels with the 1930s.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:01 PM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:01 PM on October 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Sorry, Mitch, you were his enabler for four years. You don't get let off the hook for holding in the truth until you're out of office.
Obviously, I agree with your sentiment, but it will be interesting to learn more about the Republican actions and lack of actions in both 2016 and 2020.
If this election is about international politics, I wonder why not one word has been written here yet about Ukraine and Europe? Trump has clearly stated he will support Netanyahu in "getting the job done". And he has stated that he will "stop the war in Ukraine" -- which means he will hand over the country to Putin's Russia.
Here in Denmark, we have for the first time in my life been told by the authorities to prepare for war or natural disasters, because no one knows what happens next if Putin is allowed to take Ukraine.
The situation in Taiwan will be very precarious after a Trump win, too.
Four years of an unbounded Trump will end the current frail world order, and its replacement will be intentionally chaotic across the globe. Producers of fossile fuels and arms thrive on chaos, as well as those who live off disinformation.
posted by mumimor at 11:57 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
Obviously, I agree with your sentiment, but it will be interesting to learn more about the Republican actions and lack of actions in both 2016 and 2020.
If this election is about international politics, I wonder why not one word has been written here yet about Ukraine and Europe? Trump has clearly stated he will support Netanyahu in "getting the job done". And he has stated that he will "stop the war in Ukraine" -- which means he will hand over the country to Putin's Russia.
Here in Denmark, we have for the first time in my life been told by the authorities to prepare for war or natural disasters, because no one knows what happens next if Putin is allowed to take Ukraine.
The situation in Taiwan will be very precarious after a Trump win, too.
Four years of an unbounded Trump will end the current frail world order, and its replacement will be intentionally chaotic across the globe. Producers of fossile fuels and arms thrive on chaos, as well as those who live off disinformation.
posted by mumimor at 11:57 PM on October 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
I think that the Democratic Party represents my best hope for seeing American power wielded responsibly, with the rights or our citizens, residents, and international community in mind. A big part of this is economic choices, like choosing to keep the Fed independent. I think they also generally share my interest in stability and deescalation, both here and abroad.
I think it is rational for Muslims to vote for Harris, but I can understand if the heartbreak of the current situation stops someone from doing so. I do hope there’s not a lot of talking about who didn’t vote in a couple years, the way people get riled up talking about Bernie. I’m hoping Harris takes Michigan in particular just to avoid this, and if she loses, I don’t mind if you lie to me and tell me you gave rides to ten friends to vote for her - I just want to move on and get to work with you as an ally in the future. I do think it will be easier to get people to support the movement more in the next few months, since many people are quite preoccupied with the election and it’s taking time that would otherwise go to individual issues.
Speaking of heartbreak, I’ve noticed that my emotions are being affected by the things the algorithm shows me. A lot of very negative memories, about hard times for my family, really negative interpersonal interactions, and fears about the future have been dragged up in the “non-political” content I’ve been reading recently. If you need to step back from feeling heartbreak and despair, I’m afraid avoiding the politics talk is not enough, so I’m just trying to get through the next couple weeks by talking to more people face-to-face.
posted by puffinaria at 12:20 AM on October 26, 2024 [8 favorites]
I think it is rational for Muslims to vote for Harris, but I can understand if the heartbreak of the current situation stops someone from doing so. I do hope there’s not a lot of talking about who didn’t vote in a couple years, the way people get riled up talking about Bernie. I’m hoping Harris takes Michigan in particular just to avoid this, and if she loses, I don’t mind if you lie to me and tell me you gave rides to ten friends to vote for her - I just want to move on and get to work with you as an ally in the future. I do think it will be easier to get people to support the movement more in the next few months, since many people are quite preoccupied with the election and it’s taking time that would otherwise go to individual issues.
Speaking of heartbreak, I’ve noticed that my emotions are being affected by the things the algorithm shows me. A lot of very negative memories, about hard times for my family, really negative interpersonal interactions, and fears about the future have been dragged up in the “non-political” content I’ve been reading recently. If you need to step back from feeling heartbreak and despair, I’m afraid avoiding the politics talk is not enough, so I’m just trying to get through the next couple weeks by talking to more people face-to-face.
posted by puffinaria at 12:20 AM on October 26, 2024 [8 favorites]
Brett Devereaux of the acoup blog goes into a detailed analysis of is Trump fascist? The conclusion will not surprise you, but this is well worth the read to see the parallels with the 1930s.
This is great. A much-expanded version of the sort of argument I sketched out above in relation to dictionary definitions of the term, which goes on to tackle the deeper question of whether Trumpism qualifies as fascism in ideological terms (which of course it does). The comparisons with the 1920s and 1930s are crucial; I suspect my own perspective on Trump has been shaped by studying the rise of Nazism as a student forty years ago, and affirmed more recently by the BBC's excellent Rise of the Nazis—the first two episodes should be compulsory viewing for everyone in the West right now.
I wonder if some people shy away from applying the label because they don't see Hitler in Trump: they don't see the toothbrush moustache, or the consistent overt anti-Semitism, or the author of a book-length manifesto (The Art of the Deal doesn't count, because he didn't write it). They're looking at the wrong fascist. Look at Mussolini, who sought power for its own sake.
I disagree with Devereaux about this, though:
if you had asked in me in 2016, if Donald Trump was a fascist, I’d have said no. I’d have said no in October of 2020 too; authoritarian tendencies, perhaps, but not a fascist. Donald Trump’s rhetoric has changed, however, in a way that puts him firmly in this category, satisfying not just parts of the definition but every part of it. He has become a fascist and when he tells us that about himself – we should believe him.
He was telling us in 2015. Even earlier. He was telling us when he led the birther charge. It was all there. He may not have had all the necessary supporters and machinery around him yet, but he was ready. Look at John Kelly and others mentioning the times they had to tell him that he shouldn't deploy the army against protestors as president. He was constrained by some of the greater inertia of the US system of government—fifty states, a Supreme Court not yet fully stacked—but he knew what he wanted, and he kept telling us.
posted by rory at 12:41 AM on October 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
This is great. A much-expanded version of the sort of argument I sketched out above in relation to dictionary definitions of the term, which goes on to tackle the deeper question of whether Trumpism qualifies as fascism in ideological terms (which of course it does). The comparisons with the 1920s and 1930s are crucial; I suspect my own perspective on Trump has been shaped by studying the rise of Nazism as a student forty years ago, and affirmed more recently by the BBC's excellent Rise of the Nazis—the first two episodes should be compulsory viewing for everyone in the West right now.
I wonder if some people shy away from applying the label because they don't see Hitler in Trump: they don't see the toothbrush moustache, or the consistent overt anti-Semitism, or the author of a book-length manifesto (The Art of the Deal doesn't count, because he didn't write it). They're looking at the wrong fascist. Look at Mussolini, who sought power for its own sake.
I disagree with Devereaux about this, though:
if you had asked in me in 2016, if Donald Trump was a fascist, I’d have said no. I’d have said no in October of 2020 too; authoritarian tendencies, perhaps, but not a fascist. Donald Trump’s rhetoric has changed, however, in a way that puts him firmly in this category, satisfying not just parts of the definition but every part of it. He has become a fascist and when he tells us that about himself – we should believe him.
He was telling us in 2015. Even earlier. He was telling us when he led the birther charge. It was all there. He may not have had all the necessary supporters and machinery around him yet, but he was ready. Look at John Kelly and others mentioning the times they had to tell him that he shouldn't deploy the army against protestors as president. He was constrained by some of the greater inertia of the US system of government—fifty states, a Supreme Court not yet fully stacked—but he knew what he wanted, and he kept telling us.
posted by rory at 12:41 AM on October 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
There Are Four Anti-Trump Pathways We Failed to Take. There Is a Fifth. (NYT guest essay, archived.)
Too many of America’s most influential political, business and religious leaders remain on the sidelines. Unable to rise above fear or narrow ambition, they hedge their bets. But time is running out. What are they waiting for?
posted by rory at 3:51 AM on October 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
Too many of America’s most influential political, business and religious leaders remain on the sidelines. Unable to rise above fear or narrow ambition, they hedge their bets. But time is running out. What are they waiting for?
posted by rory at 3:51 AM on October 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
Will Donald Trump Go Full Fascist at Madison Square Garden?
I mean, why else would he be doing a rally in a solidly blue state in a city where most of us hate his god-damn guts?
Fortunately there are at least some protests happening.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:59 AM on October 26, 2024 [6 favorites]
I mean, why else would he be doing a rally in a solidly blue state in a city where most of us hate his god-damn guts?
Fortunately there are at least some protests happening.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:59 AM on October 26, 2024 [6 favorites]
DirtyOldTown raised what seems something really freaking important and isn't meant to castigate anyone (sorry if this is inaccurate reflection DOT).
Ie Say not voting for Candidate A - bog standard political supporting for various reasons a pretty terrible position - helps the election of Candidate B, - an increasingly demented psychopath out for immediately bloodshed - which he'll get harming and killing countless innocent people under his dictatorship. Does withholding the vote ever result in Candidate B being 'better' on the issue for which the vote for Candidate A was withheld? It seem a really important question, if maybe hard to answer
I was actually looking for a lower bar.
Have there been cases where Candidate A is bad on Issue X, Candidate B is worse, protest votes about Issue X swing the election to Candidate B and then the party of Candidate A takes stock on Issue X and improves their position dramatically, enough so that the loss to Candidate B is a net gain?
I cannot think of any of those.
Without instances of either, a protest vote on a single issue that helps install a leader who is actually worse on that issue seems like it is strictly a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your own face.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:30 AM on October 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
Ie Say not voting for Candidate A - bog standard political supporting for various reasons a pretty terrible position - helps the election of Candidate B, - an increasingly demented psychopath out for immediately bloodshed - which he'll get harming and killing countless innocent people under his dictatorship. Does withholding the vote ever result in Candidate B being 'better' on the issue for which the vote for Candidate A was withheld? It seem a really important question, if maybe hard to answer
I was actually looking for a lower bar.
Have there been cases where Candidate A is bad on Issue X, Candidate B is worse, protest votes about Issue X swing the election to Candidate B and then the party of Candidate A takes stock on Issue X and improves their position dramatically, enough so that the loss to Candidate B is a net gain?
I cannot think of any of those.
Without instances of either, a protest vote on a single issue that helps install a leader who is actually worse on that issue seems like it is strictly a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your own face.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:30 AM on October 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
Not committing genocide has been, to my understanding, an axiomatic part of American identity.
Have you met Americans?
America's land originally came from the forced resettlement, cultural annihilation, and liquidation of the communities that lived here. A significant part of America's labor force originally came from the forced resettlement and cultural annihilation of Africans. After a century or so we got a little less overt about those tendencies, but they still flare up regularly (off the top of my head: the colonization of Hawaii and the Philippines; the brutal internment of American citizens of Japanese descent). During the Cold War we regularly supported nationalistic and genocidal regimes as long as they were sufficiently anti-Communist nationalistic and genocidal regimes (the USSR did likewise, so I'm not suggesting America was morally worse there).
If you think America should be better than this, then, sure, yeah, "not committing genocide" is a pretty good goal for any institution that wants to lay claim to being at all moral. But if you believe that genocide is a completely alien practice for America, one that is utterly abhorrent to the application of its ideals, then, uh, literally nothing that has ever happened in America supports that contention.
posted by jackbishop at 7:30 AM on October 26, 2024 [13 favorites]
Have you met Americans?
America's land originally came from the forced resettlement, cultural annihilation, and liquidation of the communities that lived here. A significant part of America's labor force originally came from the forced resettlement and cultural annihilation of Africans. After a century or so we got a little less overt about those tendencies, but they still flare up regularly (off the top of my head: the colonization of Hawaii and the Philippines; the brutal internment of American citizens of Japanese descent). During the Cold War we regularly supported nationalistic and genocidal regimes as long as they were sufficiently anti-Communist nationalistic and genocidal regimes (the USSR did likewise, so I'm not suggesting America was morally worse there).
If you think America should be better than this, then, sure, yeah, "not committing genocide" is a pretty good goal for any institution that wants to lay claim to being at all moral. But if you believe that genocide is a completely alien practice for America, one that is utterly abhorrent to the application of its ideals, then, uh, literally nothing that has ever happened in America supports that contention.
posted by jackbishop at 7:30 AM on October 26, 2024 [13 favorites]
At this point, I think Griffin is deluding himself if he continues to believe Trump is not a fascist under his (Griffin's) definition.
Robert Paxton ("The Anatomy of Fascism" 2004) crossed the bridge of his own conceptual objections back in 2021.
posted by mazola at 7:46 AM on October 27, 2024 [3 favorites]
Robert Paxton ("The Anatomy of Fascism" 2004) crossed the bridge of his own conceptual objections back in 2021.
posted by mazola at 7:46 AM on October 27, 2024 [3 favorites]
Looks like it's full-tilt-boogie White Power Hour at the Garden today, and Trump hasn't even appeared yet.
They've had a guy calling Puerto Rico "literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean", then calling out a Black person in the audience to joke that "we carved watermelons together" at a Halloween party.
Then calling Hillary Clinton a "dick bastard" and the Dems "a whole fucking party" of "degenerates, lowlives, Jew-haters, and lowlives".
Then Grant Cardone saying Kamala "has pimp handlers" and declaring "we need to slaughter these (Democrats)".
Then a guy calling Harris "the devil" and "the Antichrist".
Then Stephen Miller declaring that "America is for Americans and Americans only".
posted by non canadian guy at 2:14 PM on October 27, 2024 [9 favorites]
They've had a guy calling Puerto Rico "literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean", then calling out a Black person in the audience to joke that "we carved watermelons together" at a Halloween party.
Then calling Hillary Clinton a "dick bastard" and the Dems "a whole fucking party" of "degenerates, lowlives, Jew-haters, and lowlives".
Then Grant Cardone saying Kamala "has pimp handlers" and declaring "we need to slaughter these (Democrats)".
Then a guy calling Harris "the devil" and "the Antichrist".
Then Stephen Miller declaring that "America is for Americans and Americans only".
posted by non canadian guy at 2:14 PM on October 27, 2024 [9 favorites]
Oh, how nice, there was also a speaker who helpfully expanded on what Miller was getting at above:
Trump rally speaker: “And these Latinos, they love making babies too. Just know that. They do. They do. There’s no pulling out. They don’t do that. They come inside. Just like they did to our country.”
posted by non canadian guy at 2:49 PM on October 27, 2024 [4 favorites]
Trump rally speaker: “And these Latinos, they love making babies too. Just know that. They do. They do. There’s no pulling out. They don’t do that. They come inside. Just like they did to our country.”
posted by non canadian guy at 2:49 PM on October 27, 2024 [4 favorites]
Good.
Let the world and the US voters see them for what they really are, which is nothing more than violent white supremacist scum.
posted by Pouteria at 3:25 PM on October 27, 2024 [2 favorites]
Let the world and the US voters see them for what they really are, which is nothing more than violent white supremacist scum.
posted by Pouteria at 3:25 PM on October 27, 2024 [2 favorites]
Let the world and the US voters see them for what they really are, which is nothing more than violent white supremacist scum.
I’ve got some bad news for you about the American voters.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:29 PM on October 27, 2024 [14 favorites]
I’ve got some bad news for you about the American voters.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:29 PM on October 27, 2024 [14 favorites]
Democrats as Jew Haters
So I guess they’ve changed tack from “we will not be replaced with Jews.”
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:34 PM on October 27, 2024 [3 favorites]
So I guess they’ve changed tack from “we will not be replaced with Jews.”
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:34 PM on October 27, 2024 [3 favorites]
So I guess they’ve changed tack from “we will not be replaced with Jews.”
For now.
posted by non canadian guy at 7:16 PM on October 27, 2024 [4 favorites]
For now.
posted by non canadian guy at 7:16 PM on October 27, 2024 [4 favorites]
This decreases his odds a little, but makes it clearer that if he wins, working inside the system will not be sufficient to take him down. Get ready to be brave.
posted by caviar2d2 at 10:00 PM on October 27, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 10:00 PM on October 27, 2024 [2 favorites]
It's going to be a long week, or perhaps months, since Trump is sure to contest the result if Harris wins in less than a landslide. I do feel landslide vibes, but like most people, I'm traumatized by 2016.
Also, we all knew Stephen Miller is creepy as hell, but J.D. Vance is beyond that, and very likely to become president within the next four years if Trump wins...
posted by mumimor at 12:26 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
Also, we all knew Stephen Miller is creepy as hell, but J.D. Vance is beyond that, and very likely to become president within the next four years if Trump wins...
posted by mumimor at 12:26 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
A quip from a friend on Facebook:
"How racist was Trump's rally? It was racist enough that even The New York Times called it racism in its headline."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:42 AM on October 28, 2024 [9 favorites]
"How racist was Trump's rally? It was racist enough that even The New York Times called it racism in its headline."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:42 AM on October 28, 2024 [9 favorites]
Okay, hear me out. Maybe he's actually trying to lose the election by a thin margin so he can stage a 2nd $250M "Stop the Steal" grift.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 4:09 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by ZenMasterThis at 4:09 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Okay, hear me out. Maybe he's actually trying to lose the election by a thin margin so he can stage a 2nd $250M "Stop the Steal" grift.
Definitely a possibility. I don't think there's ever been a more profitable scam in my lifetime than the 9 years he's been telling the marks he's going to make America great again, while filling his own pockets and leaving destruction and chaos in his wake. Like his friend and personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani who is disbarred and destitute due to the work he did in aftermath of the 2020 election.
C'mon timeline where "Trump gets only 10% of the vote, his MAGA base who is still buying merch and everyone else either stays home or votes for Harris/Walz, so that the race is called before midnight Eastern Time"!
posted by mikelieman at 5:22 AM on October 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
Definitely a possibility. I don't think there's ever been a more profitable scam in my lifetime than the 9 years he's been telling the marks he's going to make America great again, while filling his own pockets and leaving destruction and chaos in his wake. Like his friend and personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani who is disbarred and destitute due to the work he did in aftermath of the 2020 election.
C'mon timeline where "Trump gets only 10% of the vote, his MAGA base who is still buying merch and everyone else either stays home or votes for Harris/Walz, so that the race is called before midnight Eastern Time"!
posted by mikelieman at 5:22 AM on October 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
And why has a thread that's about how Trump is literally a fascist turned into the 897th re-hashing of Harris' I/P policy?
Oh, that's easy. I reread the thread. It all began when someone said that not voting for Harris makes you a "quisling." It's easy to see how that would turn into a discussion about the genocide, since that's the main reason people on MetaFilter are not voting for Harris. The discussion is focused on whether or not Trump is a fascist until that comment.
posted by ftrtts at 5:26 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
Oh, that's easy. I reread the thread. It all began when someone said that not voting for Harris makes you a "quisling." It's easy to see how that would turn into a discussion about the genocide, since that's the main reason people on MetaFilter are not voting for Harris. The discussion is focused on whether or not Trump is a fascist until that comment.
posted by ftrtts at 5:26 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
It all began when someone said that not voting for Harris makes you a "quisling."
And after watching that horrifying Nazi rally unfold last night, I stand by that assessment 100%.
There is no question about whether or not Trump is a fascist. He is. It's abundantly obvious.
The question is: are Americans going to roll over for fascism?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:46 AM on October 28, 2024 [10 favorites]
And after watching that horrifying Nazi rally unfold last night, I stand by that assessment 100%.
There is no question about whether or not Trump is a fascist. He is. It's abundantly obvious.
The question is: are Americans going to roll over for fascism?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:46 AM on October 28, 2024 [10 favorites]
> And why has a thread that's about how Trump is literally a fascist turned into the 897th re-hashing of Harris' I/P policy?
Oh, that's easy. I reread the thread. It all began.....
My question was actually a bit rhetorical, friend.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:09 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
Oh, that's easy. I reread the thread. It all began.....
My question was actually a bit rhetorical, friend.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:09 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
J.D. Vance is beyond that, and very likely to become president within the next four years if Trump wins...
Assuming Trump doesn't croak before then and he actually wins, everything possible will be done to keep Vance from assuming the office of President until January 2027. After that he can finish out Trump's term and still be eligible for two of his own.
posted by wierdo at 6:29 AM on October 28, 2024
Assuming Trump doesn't croak before then and he actually wins, everything possible will be done to keep Vance from assuming the office of President until January 2027. After that he can finish out Trump's term and still be eligible for two of his own.
posted by wierdo at 6:29 AM on October 28, 2024
Assuming Trump doesn't croak before then
He doesn't need to die. The Christo-Facsists can evoke the 25th. If you think Vance is loyal, I have an offer on all the bridges and tunnels in the US that you can't refuse.
posted by mumimor at 6:34 AM on October 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
He doesn't need to die. The Christo-Facsists can evoke the 25th. If you think Vance is loyal, I have an offer on all the bridges and tunnels in the US that you can't refuse.
posted by mumimor at 6:34 AM on October 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
You can tell Trump doesn't trust Vance because he's started playing dominance games with him. Vance plays proper lapdog, but I'd love to hear what he says out of microphone range.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:42 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:42 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
And after watching that horrifying Nazi rally unfold last night, I stand by that assessment 100%.
If you want to comdemn people for not engaging in meaningless electoral performance (and that is what it will be for the majority of voters), I think it at the very least behooves you to comsoder what you can do in the case of Trump assuming power to deny granting his government any additional power, comfort, or legitimacy. Particularly since working with the fascists once they had power is what Quisling actually did.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:45 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
If you want to comdemn people for not engaging in meaningless electoral performance (and that is what it will be for the majority of voters), I think it at the very least behooves you to comsoder what you can do in the case of Trump assuming power to deny granting his government any additional power, comfort, or legitimacy. Particularly since working with the fascists once they had power is what Quisling actually did.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:45 AM on October 28, 2024 [1 favorite]
I condemn you, specifically, right now, for saying that voting against fascism is "meaningless electoral performance".
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:48 AM on October 28, 2024 [9 favorites]
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:48 AM on October 28, 2024 [9 favorites]
Your condemnation, like a Californian's vote in a presidential election, is entirely meaningless on any practical level.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:49 AM on October 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 6:49 AM on October 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
Get a room, guys.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:00 AM on October 28, 2024 [16 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:00 AM on October 28, 2024 [16 favorites]
He doesn't need to die. The Christo-Facsists can evoke the 25th. If you think Vance is loyal, I have an offer on all the bridges and tunnels in the US that you can't refuse.
No doubt. What I'm saying is that they probably won't 25th Trump until 2027 so that Vance can get an extra two years in office before they have to find someone else or violate the Constitution without any kind of fig leaf. They may not be particularly beholden to the Constitution, but so far there's been at least some kind of semantic argument they could make about why what they're doing isn't actually unconstitutional. The two term limitation doesn't really lend itself to that in the way most of the rest of it does.
posted by wierdo at 8:35 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
No doubt. What I'm saying is that they probably won't 25th Trump until 2027 so that Vance can get an extra two years in office before they have to find someone else or violate the Constitution without any kind of fig leaf. They may not be particularly beholden to the Constitution, but so far there's been at least some kind of semantic argument they could make about why what they're doing isn't actually unconstitutional. The two term limitation doesn't really lend itself to that in the way most of the rest of it does.
posted by wierdo at 8:35 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
Burning ballots pulled from inside smoking Vancouver ballot box; hundreds of ballots lost [KATU | ABC]
posted by mazola at 9:27 AM on October 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
Voters who dropped off ballots at that location after 11 a.m. Saturday need to contact the Election Auditor's Office IMMEDIATELY for a new ballot.On topic: seems like a fascist thing to do but I'm not an expert.
…
Vancouver Police released the following statement at 9 a.m.:This morning at about 4:00 a.m., Vancouver Police responded to an arson at a ballot box located at 3510 SE 164th Ave. It was reported that the ballot box was smoking and on fire. Officers arrived and located a suspicious device next to the box. The ballot box was smoking and was on fire. Members of the Metro Explosive Disposal Unit (MEDU) arrived and safely collected the device, and the fire was extinguished. Detectives from the Vancouver Police Arson team and the Vancouver Fire Marshals also responded.
The FBI is continuing the investigation of this incident.
posted by mazola at 9:27 AM on October 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
These Americans told our pollsters Trump is a fascist. They’ll still vote for him: Among registered voters who say Trump is a fascist, 8% support him anyway. [ABC]
Also, I'm more interested at the number of registered Republicans who are voting, but breaking (at least at the top of the ticket). I would like to believe there's a non-negligible number of republicans who draw the line at TFG and either leave the top-of-the-ticket blank (or outright endorse Harris) even if they vote R down ticket.
You have to figure the number of Registered Rs either voting D or leaving blank is far greater than any Registered D voting R or leaving blank. So turnout really favours Ds.
posted by mazola at 9:32 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
"Personally, he's a fascist," she said. "Professionally wise, as president, I think he would do a good job."Sigh.
Also, I'm more interested at the number of registered Republicans who are voting, but breaking (at least at the top of the ticket). I would like to believe there's a non-negligible number of republicans who draw the line at TFG and either leave the top-of-the-ticket blank (or outright endorse Harris) even if they vote R down ticket.
You have to figure the number of Registered Rs either voting D or leaving blank is far greater than any Registered D voting R or leaving blank. So turnout really favours Ds.
posted by mazola at 9:32 AM on October 28, 2024 [3 favorites]
To be fair to that 8%, most of the other Republican voters still supporting Trump are either ignorant of what a fascist is other than a bad thing people to their left make accusations about, or know damned well he is a fascist but are unwilling to say it.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:41 AM on October 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 9:41 AM on October 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
Burning ballots pulled from inside smoking Vancouver ballot box; hundreds of ballots lost
From a few days prior: Mailbox Arson Damages Ballots in Phoenix Arizona. According to the state AG, the perpetrator had over 120 guns and a grenade launcher in their home, and unspecified 'authorities' say he was “preparing to commit an act of mass casualty.”
posted by nobody at 10:04 AM on October 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
From a few days prior: Mailbox Arson Damages Ballots in Phoenix Arizona. According to the state AG, the perpetrator had over 120 guns and a grenade launcher in their home, and unspecified 'authorities' say he was “preparing to commit an act of mass casualty.”
posted by nobody at 10:04 AM on October 28, 2024 [6 favorites]
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:28 AM on October 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:28 AM on October 28, 2024 [2 favorites]
If Trump wins, the blame will fall to the candidates and party that lost to him, not the people they failed to convince to vote for them. If Harris and Walz are still losing votes from Israel hardliners to Trump, but are willing to cut into their own base to try to woo those hardliners back, that is on them.
i'd love to live in this world, but my expectation is that if trump wins, the fact his done so many ads on trans people these last few weeks and that democrats are wavering on that will mean that post-election, trans rights will vanish as democrats surrender on that front; they will blame trans people for existing.
if harris loses michigan and trump wins, that hate and ire will be directed at the muslim and arab community as a whole.
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:11 AM on October 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
i'd love to live in this world, but my expectation is that if trump wins, the fact his done so many ads on trans people these last few weeks and that democrats are wavering on that will mean that post-election, trans rights will vanish as democrats surrender on that front; they will blame trans people for existing.
if harris loses michigan and trump wins, that hate and ire will be directed at the muslim and arab community as a whole.
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:11 AM on October 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
democrats are wavering on that will mean that post-election, trans rights will vanish as democrats surrender on that front; they will blame trans people for existing.
Neoliberalists will cling to the rule of law even as fascism uses said law to light the funeral pyre that liberal democracy will be tied to a pole upon.
if harris loses michigan and trump wins, that hate and ire will be directed at the muslim and arab community as a whole.
It always pisses me off that the shittiness of the white electorate is already priced in. But some Muslim leaders in Michigan getting up and saying Trump promises peace have to be either extremely gullible, fucking high, or in on the grift.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:01 PM on October 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
Neoliberalists will cling to the rule of law even as fascism uses said law to light the funeral pyre that liberal democracy will be tied to a pole upon.
if harris loses michigan and trump wins, that hate and ire will be directed at the muslim and arab community as a whole.
It always pisses me off that the shittiness of the white electorate is already priced in. But some Muslim leaders in Michigan getting up and saying Trump promises peace have to be either extremely gullible, fucking high, or in on the grift.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:01 PM on October 28, 2024 [5 favorites]
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.
Said by someone who ought to have known, being a slaveholder and all.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:55 PM on October 28, 2024
Said by someone who ought to have known, being a slaveholder and all.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:55 PM on October 28, 2024
TNR: It’s Not Just Trump We Have to Fear Anymore
In the lead-up to the rally, social media was full of reminders that the American Nazi Party had held an infamous event in Madison Square Garden’s predecessor in 1939. The Trump rally lived up to that billing. It was a closing argument of unvarnished bigotry and hate, one that showed that the MAGA movement has become so much bigger than the man who founded it.posted by non canadian guy at 1:02 PM on October 28, 2024 [4 favorites]
[…]
But Trump’s Madison Square Garden rally was also a portrait of the culture of total impunity and bigotry that he has engendered. What was being celebrated in New York on Sunday was Carlson’s version of “liberation.” It was a political culture that was freed of any form of decency. There were no efforts to suggest that nonwhite Americans were Americans—or, for that matter, that they were even human. Instead, it was pushed again and again that anyone who didn’t look or act exactly the way that Trump and Carlson and Vance thought they should was animalistic, deserving of whatever horrors would be unleashed upon them should Trump return to the White House. That enemies list, just per the rally itself, is long: Blacks, Latinos, Jews, women, and liberals—anyone who would even consider voting for Kamala Harris, really.
Trump has given permission to all of this. He does plenty of it himself, to be clear. But what is obvious now is that the movement he leads has its own momentum and set of priorities. Trump is no longer crucial to it. All that matters is gaining power—whether it be through Trump or someone else—and then using it to crush anyone who would stand in their way.
One more ballot box arson makes three. This one was via an incendiary device in Portland, Oregon yesterday morning, just hours before the similar device went off in nearby Vancouver, Washington.
posted by nobody at 8:00 AM on October 29, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by nobody at 8:00 AM on October 29, 2024 [2 favorites]
What the fuck is with people lately? I know it's probably just social contagion, but it really feels like there has got to be some kind of physical cause, like a new lead poisoning. It's not just that people are more willing to spout weird and abhorrent views. If that was the only thing going on with people's behavior I could believe that it's just social effects.
However, I have noticed a sharp increase in people being generally ill tempered and exhibiting extremely poor impulse control on the level of people who end up incarcerated. It really feels like people are just constantly flying off the handle about every little thing, even people I have previously known to be even tempered.
I know that carbon dioxide levels have not yet increased so much that it should be having measurable effects on cognition, but it sure as hell seems like it is.
Rationally, though, I know it's the product of radicalization as seen several times in recent history. Provoke extreme enough emotions often enough and people feel like extreme actions are justified. It sure would be easier to swallow if it were physical, though, as that feels like (and indeed would be) a much more tractable problem.
posted by wierdo at 8:42 AM on October 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
However, I have noticed a sharp increase in people being generally ill tempered and exhibiting extremely poor impulse control on the level of people who end up incarcerated. It really feels like people are just constantly flying off the handle about every little thing, even people I have previously known to be even tempered.
I know that carbon dioxide levels have not yet increased so much that it should be having measurable effects on cognition, but it sure as hell seems like it is.
Rationally, though, I know it's the product of radicalization as seen several times in recent history. Provoke extreme enough emotions often enough and people feel like extreme actions are justified. It sure would be easier to swallow if it were physical, though, as that feels like (and indeed would be) a much more tractable problem.
posted by wierdo at 8:42 AM on October 29, 2024 [1 favorite]
know that carbon dioxide levels have not yet increased so much that it should be having measurable effects on cognition,
Covid, possibly? Both physical and mental trauma.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:58 AM on October 29, 2024 [4 favorites]
Covid, possibly? Both physical and mental trauma.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:58 AM on October 29, 2024 [4 favorites]
Honestly, I think it is the fascist machine being pointed at straight white folks and their political institutions in a way it hasn't been in living memory.
Marginal communities and political outsiders have been dealing with unpredictable violence from the far right and their enablers for as long as there has been a US.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:49 AM on October 29, 2024 [3 favorites]
Marginal communities and political outsiders have been dealing with unpredictable violence from the far right and their enablers for as long as there has been a US.
posted by pattern juggler at 9:49 AM on October 29, 2024 [3 favorites]
However, I have noticed a sharp increase in people being generally ill tempered and exhibiting extremely poor impulse control on the level of people who end up incarcerated. It really feels like people are just constantly flying off the handle about every little thing, even people I have previously known to be even tempered.
My pet theory is that we, generally at the population level, had a ton of runway on coping with things getting worse in an ambient, general sense post Reagan. And that anxiety/despair breakdowns follows a sigmoid curve like an LD50 plot for chemicals. And that we are rapidly approaching the part of the curve that contains the second standard deviation section on the "more susceptible" side of the mean, which is a shitload of people.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:52 AM on October 29, 2024 [2 favorites]
My pet theory is that we, generally at the population level, had a ton of runway on coping with things getting worse in an ambient, general sense post Reagan. And that anxiety/despair breakdowns follows a sigmoid curve like an LD50 plot for chemicals. And that we are rapidly approaching the part of the curve that contains the second standard deviation section on the "more susceptible" side of the mean, which is a shitload of people.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:52 AM on October 29, 2024 [2 favorites]
Lest one think that the rank fascism isn't already here, we should look to what has been happening to the family in Springfield, OH whose child was killed in an auto crash involving a driver who happened to be a Haitian immigrant:
posted by wierdo at 7:51 PM on October 29, 2024 [9 favorites]
Team Trump, particularly Trump and Vance themselves, decided to weaponize that, and started talking about how Clark was "murdered" as part of a "border blood bath" in an American community that has been "invaded" by "migrant criminals from the dungeons of the Third World."A campaign of terror against a grieving family for daring to have a different opinion. That's the kind of extremism we're up against.
Aiden's parents, Nathan and Danielle Clark, did not particularly want their son's death to be front-page news every day. And they really, really did not want his death to be weaponized against immigrants, noting that the 11-year-old's predominant character trait was compassion. So, the Clarks pleaded with everyone to knock it off. And what has been their reward for this? They have been doxxed, and have been slurred as "immigrant-loving race traitors," and have received death threats. They now have a sheriff's deputy stationed outside their home 24/7, while the sheriff has told them that if they really want to be sure of their safety, they should consider leaving Springfield, at least until after the election's over.
posted by wierdo at 7:51 PM on October 29, 2024 [9 favorites]
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posted by rolandroland at 11:44 PM on October 24, 2024 [17 favorites]