The carnage continues

October 7, 2002 1:02 PM

The carnage continues
Israel killed 14 Palestinians and wounded some 80 others when a missile was fired into a crowd of civilians in Gaza City. And please, spare us your lectures.
posted by mapalm (31 comments total)

and tomorrow we will see a link to another story about how palestinians retaliated by blowing up a {insert location for people here}

It's just the usual tit for tat. Both sides are to blame and both are acting like children.
posted by mkelley at 1:08 PM on October 7, 2002

In a chaotic situation such as is the I/P situation, why post something that is quickly followed by Spare Us this and that. You mean there is only one side--the Palestinian and thus we are not to consider any other postion or voice? If that is true, then why bother to post at all?
a missle was fired into a crowd of civilians: Thank the good lord it was not a suicide bomb in a pizza palace or that would be horrendous.
posted by Postroad at 1:09 PM on October 7, 2002

I would have to agree with mkelley that both sides are acting like children. Former President Clinton (who I normally don't agree with) said it best on a recent appearance on Letterman's show: "When you're stuck in a hole, the first thing you have to stop doing is digging." Both sides just keep digging themselves deeper and deeper into trouble.
posted by MediaMan at 1:14 PM on October 7, 2002

Thank the good lord it was not a suicide bomb in a pizza palace or that would be horrendous.

I trust that was that meant facetiously. Or perhaps you honestly do believe the deaths of one group of civilians is more deplorable than another?

The post was intended to point out that war crimes are daily being committed in Israel, with US taxpayer dollars, and the world yawns. When Hamas does retalliate, the airwaves will be a flutter with condemnations and calls for reprisals. The hypocrisy is sickening.
posted by mapalm at 1:19 PM on October 7, 2002

I heard that at least 100,000 Palestinians have fled from the west bank to neighboring countries since the latest Intifadah began. So the question: how can the current Israeli "offensive" be distinguished from ethnic cleansing? By killing a number of Palestinian civilians and making life completely unlivable for the rest by driving them into absolute poverty, Israel is setting the stage for a vast exodus from the occupied territories. Ethnic cleansing as a policy has certainly been discussed among some Israeli politicians (and also recommended as a policy by US House Majority Whip Tom Delay). How would an "official" policy of ethnic cleansing be implemented much differently from the current behavior of the IDF?
posted by troutfishing at 1:19 PM on October 7, 2002

Hey, did you guys hear that there was some kind of conflict over in the middle east somewhere between the Israelis and some people called the Palestinians?

Yeah, and after one side blows up people with bombs, the other side does the same thing back.

Oh, and for the latest blow by blow, go to Metafilter.com.
posted by eas98 at 1:28 PM on October 7, 2002

Both sides are to blame and both are acting like children.

Indeed, especially when you recall that this round started when a hated Israeli visited a holy arab site. (Oh NO! NOT THAT! Heavens!) It began with childish acts and childish reactions and so it continues.
posted by HTuttle at 1:33 PM on October 7, 2002

This was a military action. (From the linked story: "Among the wounded Palestinians were combatants brought in for treatment still clutching their assault rifles.")

Perhaps there were flaws in strategy, tactics, or execution, but it was a military action, justified by the de-facto state of war which exists between Israel (on the one hand) and Hamas, PIJ, and al-Asqa Martyrs Brigade (on the other hand).

Those who support Israel have always drawn distinctions among three kinds of Palestinian offensive activity: that directed against the IDF and other Israeli security forces, that directed against civilians. There is no one (at least, no one honest) who would deem as terrorism per se an attack on an IDF base or personnel, even if there were collateral damage.
posted by MattD at 1:43 PM on October 7, 2002

Another few thoughts. Had Dante been writing in the current era, he would have reserved special Hells for 1) Palestinian suicide bombers (who would be blown to bits over and over again, endlessly) 2) Those Israeli political leaders working to orchestrate the gradual takeover of the territories through settlements (they would be be bombarded by Islamic culture forced to live as Palestinians do, continually debased and brutalized by Israeli bureaucrac and the IDF. 3) Sharon would become a very small, mangy rat beset by Arafat, who would be Sharon's continual, recrudescent torment: one day as an enormous superating boil, the next as a huge painfull tapeworm, and so on.

Both sides are not acting like children. They both have been making the choice to, in a premeditated fashion, inflict terrible suffering and gratuitious slaughter on civilian populations. This is a very "adult" behavior. Children, when not actually taught to harbour hatreds and grudges, tend to let go of their anger far more quickly than do adults. To use the term "childish" in this context is to ignore the nearly demonic grip which hatreds, bred from centuries of conflict, have on the minds of Jews and Palestinians.

It's a terrible shame that Arafat did not - heaven forbid!- promote a different type of Intifadah: a nonviolent one. Now, months and months of horrible suicide bombings have quite effectively extinguished much of the sympathy Americans and Israelis on the left felt for the Palestinian plight. Regardless of the grotesque imbalance of power in the conflict, the Palestinians have, in the eyes of a large part of the non-Islamic world, lost much of their moral authority.
posted by troutfishing at 1:50 PM on October 7, 2002

I just wish that the US/UN/world community would put as much energy into coming up with (and implementing) a speedy and just solution to the I/P conflict as it is putting into Iraq right now. I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that the world would be a much safer place if that were done. 30+ years is way too long for this to fester.
posted by laz-e-boy at 2:22 PM on October 7, 2002

So this broom ... it vibrates you say?
posted by pardonyou? at 2:23 PM on October 7, 2002

MAKE SURE TO KEEP ME UPDATED AS THIS STORY DEVELOPS. EVERY DAY... (POST A LINK ON METAFILTER SO I KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON [EVERY DAY]).
posted by cadastral at 2:24 PM on October 7, 2002

Wait, wait wait... *where* is this happening? Blowing each other up, you say? What's our country's stance on this? How long has this been going on?
posted by interrobang at 2:49 PM on October 7, 2002

Funny how so few care about the very real (and much worse) carnage in Sudan. Oh, I forgot, the killers are black.
posted by dagny at 2:49 PM on October 7, 2002

Amazing... I've never heard of "yahoo.com". Has anyone? What a wonderful find! Thank you for posting a link to "yahoo.com"!

And it's a news link! Apparently this "yahoo.com" offers news! Who knew? Good thing you posted it to MeFi, because otherwise we wouldn't know where to find a news story!

And as for the subject of this story, gosh, isn't it awful? Boy, good thing you're not spreading this awfulness around!
thx george
jesus christ. ooh, killing. I/P. That's horrible. Yahoo news? What a wonderful, obscure site you've turned me on to! READ THIS METATALK THREAD, mapalm
posted by ac at 3:00 PM on October 7, 2002

ac...you seem a sad and bitter creature: respond to the post, send me an email...or go elsewhere. You contribute nothing.
posted by mapalm at 3:09 PM on October 7, 2002

ac, you might want to read this one.

Okay, so this is a lame post. Instaed of raggin' on maplam (he's obviously got enough problems) why not just ignore it and move along? After all, there is truly nothing to see here...at least nothing we haven't seen a gajillion times.

As for my take on the topic, what laz-e-boy said.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:12 PM on October 7, 2002

After all, there is truly nothing to see here

I guess that is what saddens me most. The fact that people honestly do not care that missiles are fired into crowds of civilians, blowing them to bits.

Silence equals tacit acceptance.

I just saw "Bloody Sunday", an incredibly powerful film about the day in January 1972 when British troops opened fire on Irish marchers, killing 13.

As I watched the film, the simple truth was so painfully and frustratingly clear: the horror when men with guns (or attack helicopters) kill people just for being who they are, and where they are.

I hope, Wulfgar, (just as I asked Postroad at the top of this post) that you don't actually believe what you wrote. But maybe you do.
posted by mapalm at 3:25 PM on October 7, 2002

Silence equals tacit acceptance.

And posting about it on a website equals what? Civil disobedience?
posted by goethean at 3:31 PM on October 7, 2002

Okay, so this is a lame post. instead of raggin' on maplam (he's obviously got enough problems) why not just ignore it and move along? After all, there is truly nothing to see here...at least nothing we haven't seen a gajillion times.

amen, brother. it's a pity the holier than thou types on either side of this tiresome metafilter shitstorm won't just let these threads die. this really has been discussed to death. even the media are beginning to tire of it. they perfunctorily report the retaliatory excesses on either side and then secretly hope someone famous and sexy will do something bad and embarrassing to push the story down.
posted by donkeyschlong at 3:43 PM on October 7, 2002

donkeyschlong:

IMHO, anyone paying even the remotest attention to metatalk lately whould have thought long and hard about posting this. What's worse, is that mapalm has been called out specifically on this issue, i.e. beating the I/P thing to death. If I/P posts were banned, mapalm would have nothing to talk about.

Self policing only works if people
1. Call attention to bad behavior, and
2. Are willing to change their own behavior.

IMHO, some posters don't care. Of course this post itself is breaking policy...
posted by phatboy at 3:51 PM on October 7, 2002

Wouldn't it be great if Arafat and Sharon both died? And if their successors couldn't make peace, wouldn't be great if they died? And so on and so forth. Make peace or die. Not a bad solution.
posted by philip_buster at 3:51 PM on October 7, 2002

same old same old.
(on preview, i see phatboy beat me to it)
posted by quonsar at 4:06 PM on October 7, 2002

It's a terrible shame that Arafat did not - heaven forbid!- promote a different type of Intifadah: a nonviolent one. Now, months and months of horrible suicide bombings have quite effectively extinguished much of the sympathy Americans and Israelis on the left felt for the Palestinian plight.

There are Palestinians who've sponsored nonviolent movements. It doesn't matter, because there are any number of other Palestinian factions who have no interest in a peaceful resolution. Hamas, for one, is more than willing to keep a war of attrition going indefinitely. Some analysts believe that their strategy is to rely on a population explosion (perhaps an unfortunate term), eventually letting Palestinian numbers and perhaps even Arab nationals outnumber Israeli citizens. Whatever the reason, they think they can win by keeping the conflict going, and even if not win, at least not have their pride wounded and inflict as much pain on their enemy as they've felt.

Arafat doesn't have a chance -- although he's as close as it gets to a leader of a Palestinian unipolitic body, the reality is there are many powerful factions. And Israel's as anxious to squeeze Arafat for any Palestinian crimes because despite Arafat's problems, no one else has the clout to settle the matter, and then they can go about merrily dealing with their opposition in the way they know they can win at: military might.
posted by namespan at 4:38 PM on October 7, 2002

I know this is unrealistic, but once I'm ordained Emperor and Protector of North America I'm going to solve this I/P problem. I'd call Ariel (I'm not a war criminal)Sharon and Abu(I'm not a terrorist) Arafat to a very special private meeting. We'd sit and drink beer, maybe play some pictionary, whatever. Once everybody seemed comfortable I'd unveil my peace plan. "See this warhead? 100kilotons! And look what I've written on it: 'Tel aviv.' Oh and looky! I've got another one that has 'Ramalah' painted so nicely on the side there! I sure hope you boys can figure something out! See ya' later. maybe." Well, okay, a guy can dream?
*opens medicine bottle, tries to remember if supposed to take the pink ones on monday, or the blue. Shrugs. Takes both*
posted by elwoodwiles at 4:39 PM on October 7, 2002

When Hamas does retalliate, the airwaves will be a flutter with condemnations and calls for reprisals. The hypocrisy is sickening.

Killing people is sickening, mapalm. Not words, not "hypocrisy," but killing. If the premise of your argument depends on waiting for the next suicide bombing to prove your point, then hypocrisy is exactly what you'll get.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:47 PM on October 7, 2002

namespan: [the link didnt work for me] Some say that that is also the strategy of Sinn Fein in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland. Thing is, if you want demographics to work in your favour, it needs peace as well as time[otherwise, those - like the UK government - who want it all to just stop don't have the necessary figleaf to invite the soon-to-be-exterrorists to share power].

Sadly, the (un)leadership in the Palestinian Authority havent raised their game for that. Non-violence would have achieved more by now, in my guess: but due to geopolitical considerations (US allied to Israel, etc), a truly independent Palestine (with an army/defence force, etc) will (probably) never come about. At least not until after the terror inflicted by Hamas et al. That is the lesson from Ireland: control your own 'hard men', and lead them to the round table, for as soon as people taste real peace, they want more.

That is not to support the Israelis - in my view, equally terroristic acts have been perpetrated by IDF & settlers: with the added bonus of having a a prime minister who is, in many peoples eyes, a terrorist too. This is the 2nd course: the people also thirst for justice. Considering that the land needs to be shared somehow, and that previous Israeli leaders have been prepared to talk about that, the optimist in me says that progress can be made.

Indeed it must: they'll run out of martyrs/soldiers at some point...won't they?
posted by dash_slot- at 8:19 PM on October 7, 2002

Oh, I forgot, the killers are black.
Dude, we only care about brown people when they have oil or diamonds or something of value to Defend. Didn't you get the memo? Silly.
posted by owillis at 10:15 PM on October 7, 2002

owillis --- brown people also make great mascots and logos.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:44 PM on October 7, 2002

this incident actually changed my mind a lot about the israeli actions. i had myself convinced that they were only attacking miltary targets before this and now i'm of the opinion that they are no better than suicide bombers.
posted by carfilhiot at 5:07 AM on October 8, 2002

Everybody not interested in the Palestinian-Israel conflict, go to a different link.


This one for example:

Do you love rubber duckies? Do you love Mr. T? Would you love the bastard offspring of a rubber ducky and Mr. T? How about Carmen Miranda? All this and more at Celebriducks.com. via memepool

It´s there waiting for you, and much much more like it, if that´s what interests you. People who want to discuss this issue do not care about how sick you are of hearing about it. We already know what is important to you. You are irrelevant to this discussion and to us.

go away.
posted by sic at 5:30 AM on October 8, 2002