In defense of the state flags
November 7, 2024 4:02 AM Subscribe
The U.S. state flags have been unfairly maligned, and "Good Flag, Bad Flag" has been unjustifiably praised (SLYT, 1h33m). Every time a state or city in the U.S. sets up a flag redesign committee, the members of that committee are given a copy of the pamphlet "Good Flag, Bad Flag" by Ted Kaye and directed to judge submissions according to its guidelines. There is, though, nothing scientific in that pamphlet's five principles, and some of the information it presents is factually inaccurate.
The flags with the state seal on a solid background are OK in the Governor's Office, but silly on flag pole.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:30 AM on November 7, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by SemiSalt at 4:30 AM on November 7, 2024 [7 favorites]
Also, a seal and a flag serve different purposes. A seal is often supposed to be crammed with stuff, since it’s never used for its original purpose (ie sealing things). That’s where you put all the weird symbolism. Flags need to be identified from a distance.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:45 AM on November 7, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:45 AM on November 7, 2024 [5 favorites]
Still watching this, but I'm not really convinced by his argument that the history makes things that are barely functional as flags anything other than terrible designs. Keep the seal (or coat of arms) on a blue background for situations where a seal or coat of arms is called for, but historical significance does not necessarily a good flag design make.
posted by Dysk at 4:50 AM on November 7, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:50 AM on November 7, 2024 [7 favorites]
Honk, honk.
Says the great seal of metafilter.
posted by biffa at 5:28 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
Says the great seal of metafilter.
posted by biffa at 5:28 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
I like that Michigan flag with the werewolf.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:51 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:51 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Here's a link to Good Flag, Bad Flag if you are curious but don't want to watch an hour and a half of discussion about it.
posted by egypturnash at 6:11 AM on November 7, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 6:11 AM on November 7, 2024 [4 favorites]
I quite like the Rhode Island state flag. It’s white, so it stands out among all the blue flags, the anchor and stars are solid, simple symbology, and it does have the dreaded letters, but just four, so it’s a) terse and b) generally legible. What’s not to like?
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:42 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:42 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Also I just read "Good Flag Bad Flag" and it feels like a pretty good survey of the basic issues of design that are involved: it needs to work at a pretty small visual size despite feeling like a huge canvas, here are some things about the process of physically making flag you may not be considering.
It opens and closes with notes that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules, and if you have a reason to ignore them then by all means go for it, but do so intentionally rather than by ignorance. I'm an artist and that is how every "rule" of art should be treated: here is how to make it easy to succeed in this aspect of creating an image; know that if you do something else then you are making it harder to succeed, and you would be wise to make sure that you are really nailing it in some other aspects. It is also often a smart move to break the hell out of that rule so that it is very obvious that you are breaking it - for instance, when I skim through the video, I end up at a flag that's a star, a bat (oh wait no that's a cannon), and the text "COME AND TAKE IT" and the dude is all "well this clearly works super well despite being text" but it is also following the heck out of "it should be simple enough for a child to draw from memory", "use meaningful symbolism", "use 2-3 basic colors", and "be distinctive or be related".
I find it interesting that it looks like this video is noting the bit at the end where it says "these are guidelines, break them intentionally" but completely ignoring the bit at the front of the book where it also says that.
posted by egypturnash at 6:48 AM on November 7, 2024 [5 favorites]
It opens and closes with notes that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules, and if you have a reason to ignore them then by all means go for it, but do so intentionally rather than by ignorance. I'm an artist and that is how every "rule" of art should be treated: here is how to make it easy to succeed in this aspect of creating an image; know that if you do something else then you are making it harder to succeed, and you would be wise to make sure that you are really nailing it in some other aspects. It is also often a smart move to break the hell out of that rule so that it is very obvious that you are breaking it - for instance, when I skim through the video, I end up at a flag that's a star, a bat (oh wait no that's a cannon), and the text "COME AND TAKE IT" and the dude is all "well this clearly works super well despite being text" but it is also following the heck out of "it should be simple enough for a child to draw from memory", "use meaningful symbolism", "use 2-3 basic colors", and "be distinctive or be related".
I find it interesting that it looks like this video is noting the bit at the end where it says "these are guidelines, break them intentionally" but completely ignoring the bit at the front of the book where it also says that.
posted by egypturnash at 6:48 AM on November 7, 2024 [5 favorites]
CGP Grey grades state flags.
Did you also get there by accidentally clicking through? I liked it though, its a more dynamic take. He was certainly right about the Alabama flag being able to hold up its head at the national scale. Its actually identical to the national flag of Northern Ireland.
posted by biffa at 6:49 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Did you also get there by accidentally clicking through? I liked it though, its a more dynamic take. He was certainly right about the Alabama flag being able to hold up its head at the national scale. Its actually identical to the national flag of Northern Ireland.
posted by biffa at 6:49 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
also browsing the North American Vexilogical Association's pages on flag design lead me to this list of seven flags that break the rules and holy crap the last one is amazing, it is the flag of a secret Russian city that existed to refine plutonium, and it is a red ground with an angry yellow bear in the center of a stylized atom trying to rip it apart and it is awesome, that one really belongs in a revised edition of Good Flag Bad Flag if you ask me, damn. Memorable as fuck, easy to read from a long way away, and super badass.
posted by egypturnash at 6:59 AM on November 7, 2024 [12 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 6:59 AM on November 7, 2024 [12 favorites]
So for anyone who’s actually watched the video, is there something there other than
If Patreon Guy has his own concise 14 page vexillographic pamphlet, link away!
posted by zamboni at 7:01 AM on November 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
there are historical reasons for state flags being how they are( (a) q.v. causality, (b) history is responsible for a lot of other awful things that we should also fix) and
well-actuallyfun flag facts?
If Patreon Guy has his own concise 14 page vexillographic pamphlet, link away!
posted by zamboni at 7:01 AM on November 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
In 25 years they'll be looking at all of these "good" new flag designs and saying how ugly they are.
posted by goatdog at 7:07 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by goatdog at 7:07 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
I dunno about those 7 flags…
A couple are legit too busy, a charge it levels at Wales, even though conceptually it’s just “white, green, dragon!” which can be parsed at any distance. In contrast, Bhutan’s is a little fiddly, and the white doesn’t stand out enough at the border of the other fields. Moscow has the same issue; save it for the seal. Maryland’s flag in the wind is a good way to see if you have a seizure disorder, so it’s more a diagnostic test than a flag. Lastly, that bear flag is great, but, if you can see it, you are already irradiated, so it’s not really useful.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:29 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
A couple are legit too busy, a charge it levels at Wales, even though conceptually it’s just “white, green, dragon!” which can be parsed at any distance. In contrast, Bhutan’s is a little fiddly, and the white doesn’t stand out enough at the border of the other fields. Moscow has the same issue; save it for the seal. Maryland’s flag in the wind is a good way to see if you have a seizure disorder, so it’s more a diagnostic test than a flag. Lastly, that bear flag is great, but, if you can see it, you are already irradiated, so it’s not really useful.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:29 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Yes, you can design good flags that break a couple of the Good Flag, Bad Flag rules. People need to stop taking guidelines as immutable laws of physics (except, of course, when the should.)
But notice that none of the rule-breaking good flags in egypturnash's link are the "blue bedsheet" flags.
(And some of them could still be improved. I'll always say the California flag needs to drop the words on it.)
posted by AlSweigart at 7:31 AM on November 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
But notice that none of the rule-breaking good flags in egypturnash's link are the "blue bedsheet" flags.
(And some of them could still be improved. I'll always say the California flag needs to drop the words on it.)
posted by AlSweigart at 7:31 AM on November 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
Moscow has the same issue;
That flag has real "Flaggy McFlagface" problem: it's awesome and hilarious at first, but the gimmick gets old.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:33 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
That flag has real "Flaggy McFlagface" problem: it's awesome and hilarious at first, but the gimmick gets old.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:33 AM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Alabama flag . . . is actually identical to the national flag of Northern Ireland.
errr, No. The national flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag as flown over Buckingham Palace and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. You refer to The Saltire of St Patrick which, in contrast to the blue-and-white Saltire of St Andrew in Scotland, has no official standing; except insofar as it appears in the red-white-blue salad of the Union Flag. Ulster (of which N.I. makes up 6/9ths) has a rather nice simple red cross on gold flag sometimes "defaced" [tech term] with the red hand and other paraphernalia.
posted by BobTheScientist at 7:40 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
errr, No. The national flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag as flown over Buckingham Palace and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. You refer to The Saltire of St Patrick which, in contrast to the blue-and-white Saltire of St Andrew in Scotland, has no official standing; except insofar as it appears in the red-white-blue salad of the Union Flag. Ulster (of which N.I. makes up 6/9ths) has a rather nice simple red cross on gold flag sometimes "defaced" [tech term] with the red hand and other paraphernalia.
posted by BobTheScientist at 7:40 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
Zheleznogorsk
If you're into more like this I recommend reviewing the posts in the Flags Of Russia Tumblr-blog, active 2014-2018.
Given no time-stamp in the link, and if like me you're not sure if you want/need to watch this video, the flag egypturnash ended up at is the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag from Texas, more info at Flags Of The World.
Great posts and comments here, thanks. One more page of weird flags, some variations on the ol' red-white&blue: scroll way down on the Wikipedia Flags of the Confederate States of America to the Proposals.
posted by Rash at 8:51 AM on November 7, 2024
If you're into more like this I recommend reviewing the posts in the Flags Of Russia Tumblr-blog, active 2014-2018.
Given no time-stamp in the link, and if like me you're not sure if you want/need to watch this video, the flag egypturnash ended up at is the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag from Texas, more info at Flags Of The World.
Great posts and comments here, thanks. One more page of weird flags, some variations on the ol' red-white&blue: scroll way down on the Wikipedia Flags of the Confederate States of America to the Proposals.
posted by Rash at 8:51 AM on November 7, 2024
There are a couple of /r/vexillology posts on the video that get into some of the content of the video: Great video of Premodernist and In Defense Of State Flags.
It’s also mentioned in a post about a different YouTube video about GFBF, Heresy! Rethinking the Flag Design Bible | Linus Boman.
In 25 years they'll be looking at all of these "good" new flag designs and saying how ugly they are
Good Flag, Bad Flag was introduced in 2001. Time’s almost up!
posted by zamboni at 9:23 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
It’s also mentioned in a post about a different YouTube video about GFBF, Heresy! Rethinking the Flag Design Bible | Linus Boman.
In 25 years they'll be looking at all of these "good" new flag designs and saying how ugly they are
Good Flag, Bad Flag was introduced in 2001. Time’s almost up!
posted by zamboni at 9:23 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
You refer to The Saltire of St Patrick which, in contrast to the blue-and-white Saltire of St Andrew in Scotland, has no official standing
No official standing, but as a US person, the only time I really see either of those flags is for sporting events where the Northern Ireland flag or Scotland flag will be shown in the standings next to a person or team. Only entity I can think of at the moment with a N.I. flag is Rory McIlroy though.
posted by LionIndex at 9:45 AM on November 7, 2024
No official standing, but as a US person, the only time I really see either of those flags is for sporting events where the Northern Ireland flag or Scotland flag will be shown in the standings next to a person or team. Only entity I can think of at the moment with a N.I. flag is Rory McIlroy though.
posted by LionIndex at 9:45 AM on November 7, 2024
if we were fighting an army matching under the banner of a rat's anus I'd probably be a lot less worried, Hans.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:57 AM on November 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:57 AM on November 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
holy crap the last one is amazing, it is the flag of a secret Russian city that existed to refine plutonium, and it is a red ground with an angry yellow bear in the center of a stylized atom trying to rip it apart and it is awesome
I love that the bear has in fact gotten inside the electron shells of the atom, and is specifically ripping apart the nucleus. That is one scary bear.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:23 PM on November 7, 2024
I love that the bear has in fact gotten inside the electron shells of the atom, and is specifically ripping apart the nucleus. That is one scary bear.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:23 PM on November 7, 2024
Scary, but extremely smol.
posted by Dysk at 2:36 PM on November 7, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:36 PM on November 7, 2024 [4 favorites]
Russia has some badass bears on flags. A few are nicer.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:40 PM on November 7, 2024
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:40 PM on November 7, 2024
TIL that there's a naked boob on the Virginia flag.
Surprised that's allowed to be flown in public schools.
posted by MtDewd at 2:47 PM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Surprised that's allowed to be flown in public schools.
posted by MtDewd at 2:47 PM on November 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
TIL that there's a naked boob on the Virginia flag.
Surprised that's allowed to be flown in public schools
It’s ok, it’s promoting teenage Virginity.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:24 PM on November 8, 2024
Surprised that's allowed to be flown in public schools
It’s ok, it’s promoting teenage Virginity.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:24 PM on November 8, 2024
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