Schools vs Screens
November 13, 2024 8:45 AM Subscribe
Phones had become kids’ entire worlds: their classrooms, entertainment and their primary connection to friends and peers. (slMacleans)
Spoiler alert: there is no easy solution!
Spoiler alert: there is no easy solution!
anyway my jokerfying moment was when I realized my hometown had raised money to put SmartBoards into elementary classrooms. The kids are too short to even touch the touchscreen! What are you doing
posted by BungaDunga at 9:09 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:09 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]
at least they don’t quote Haidt
posted by supercres at 9:17 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]
posted by supercres at 9:17 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]
Some high schools in the US are making students lock their phones in a pouch when they enter the school and unlock them when they leave. Apparently that isn't a thing in Canada, though it sounds like it would get major pushback based on the article.
posted by pangolin party at 9:23 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
posted by pangolin party at 9:23 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
From TFA:
At Greenwood College School, an independent middle and high school in Toronto, educators are testing an even stricter form of separation. Students are required to put their smartphones into Yondr pouches, lockable fabric sacks that first became commonplace at comedy shows and are now in use at thousands of schools worldwide. While on campus, Greenwood students carry the pouches around with them, their unusable phones locked inside. When they leave for lunch or at the end of the day, they magnetically unlock their Yondrs at several stations scattered across campus.
posted by Kitteh at 9:24 AM on November 13 [7 favorites]
At Greenwood College School, an independent middle and high school in Toronto, educators are testing an even stricter form of separation. Students are required to put their smartphones into Yondr pouches, lockable fabric sacks that first became commonplace at comedy shows and are now in use at thousands of schools worldwide. While on campus, Greenwood students carry the pouches around with them, their unusable phones locked inside. When they leave for lunch or at the end of the day, they magnetically unlock their Yondrs at several stations scattered across campus.
posted by Kitteh at 9:24 AM on November 13 [7 favorites]
All it takes is one school shooting while the kids phones are locked up for that idea to never get implemented again. Parents will riot
posted by BungaDunga at 9:24 AM on November 13 [16 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:24 AM on November 13 [16 favorites]
Spoiler alert: there is no easy solution!
Oh man, I so wanted an easy solution. I attended a teaching demo at my kid's school, and it was about building a paper spectrometer, and at the end the teacher asked the kids to take a photo of the spectra with their phones; the expectation is that all the kids have their devices all the time. Due to a battery problem, my kid didn't have one, and had to scramble to get a photo to show the teacher the results.
posted by dhruva at 9:25 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
Oh man, I so wanted an easy solution. I attended a teaching demo at my kid's school, and it was about building a paper spectrometer, and at the end the teacher asked the kids to take a photo of the spectra with their phones; the expectation is that all the kids have their devices all the time. Due to a battery problem, my kid didn't have one, and had to scramble to get a photo to show the teacher the results.
posted by dhruva at 9:25 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
I mean, kids are gonna kid, but I think the underlying vibe of this article is that basically no one wants to make a parent mad in any context because everyone in education is just so so tired.
posted by Kitteh at 9:31 AM on November 13 [34 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 9:31 AM on November 13 [34 favorites]
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
I wouldn't have realized that students' personal phones were being used for so much in class—math classes don't have calculators, photography class is just phone photography, and some of these schools even use them for the periodic table? Translation for kids learning English makes sense, though I would have thought that was done through some locked down school laptop. I wonder what they do if a student's phone is broken—I guess dhruva saw this in action. And isn't there some value to kids learning to use different devices with different interfaces, paper lookup tables, etc.?
And do richer kids with fancier phones just take better photos in photography class and generally have less stress about battery issues, storage issues, their parents consistently paying the bill, and not looking "poor," etc.? When I was a teenager in public school in the U.S., the school provided pretty much all the books and equipment you would need, and it sounds like this is now being placed on the parents, although I guess digital technology was already becoming an exception. I know it was a pain for kids without working computers at home to write papers—they'd have to work in the library after school or during their lunch hour—and there was an elaborate procedure for kids who couldn't afford one to get loaned a graphing calculator for math class.
Also, it would have been quite unusual until recently for students to bring anything worth ~$1,000 to school, so I understand why schools are reticent to confiscate them.
posted by smelendez at 9:32 AM on November 13 [9 favorites]
I wouldn't have realized that students' personal phones were being used for so much in class—math classes don't have calculators, photography class is just phone photography, and some of these schools even use them for the periodic table? Translation for kids learning English makes sense, though I would have thought that was done through some locked down school laptop. I wonder what they do if a student's phone is broken—I guess dhruva saw this in action. And isn't there some value to kids learning to use different devices with different interfaces, paper lookup tables, etc.?
And do richer kids with fancier phones just take better photos in photography class and generally have less stress about battery issues, storage issues, their parents consistently paying the bill, and not looking "poor," etc.? When I was a teenager in public school in the U.S., the school provided pretty much all the books and equipment you would need, and it sounds like this is now being placed on the parents, although I guess digital technology was already becoming an exception. I know it was a pain for kids without working computers at home to write papers—they'd have to work in the library after school or during their lunch hour—and there was an elaborate procedure for kids who couldn't afford one to get loaned a graphing calculator for math class.
Also, it would have been quite unusual until recently for students to bring anything worth ~$1,000 to school, so I understand why schools are reticent to confiscate them.
posted by smelendez at 9:32 AM on November 13 [9 favorites]
There's a certain degree to which kids will just tune the fuck out in a class, I was whiling away a few high school classes by passing notes to a friend in a simple cipher - I think it originally came from one of the Grimtooh's Traps books - or sitting in the back drawing or hiding a book in my lap or whatever.
But phones are a whole other class of distraction. And honestly that link title goes for adults, too. Phones are entirely too much of everyone's world.
posted by egypturnash at 9:32 AM on November 13 [22 favorites]
But phones are a whole other class of distraction. And honestly that link title goes for adults, too. Phones are entirely too much of everyone's world.
posted by egypturnash at 9:32 AM on November 13 [22 favorites]
Some high schools in the US are making students lock their phones in a pouch when they enter the school and unlock them when they leave.
All of the high schools here in town now have a no phones policy. some use pouches, some just say "no phones". it's not unified yet because what district wide implementation will look like is still under consideration. what that will end up being is anyone's guess because if there's one thing that Portland Public Schools is fabulous at, it's eternal debate followed by ineffective policy.
The policy is actually working pretty well mostly because teachers can now actually have meaningful consequences for students caught using a phone. Previously, school administration would just roll over if a parent got mad that their kid got their phone taken away for using it in class.
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:35 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
All of the high schools here in town now have a no phones policy. some use pouches, some just say "no phones". it's not unified yet because what district wide implementation will look like is still under consideration. what that will end up being is anyone's guess because if there's one thing that Portland Public Schools is fabulous at, it's eternal debate followed by ineffective policy.
The policy is actually working pretty well mostly because teachers can now actually have meaningful consequences for students caught using a phone. Previously, school administration would just roll over if a parent got mad that their kid got their phone taken away for using it in class.
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:35 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
Phones are entirely too much of everyone's world.
Speaking for myself, and only myself, I agree and am doing my best to be a little less phone dependent. (I took games off my phone at the beginning of 2024, and am thinking of taking any social media off my phone in 2025.) I have tucked a book of crosswords in my bag to distract me when I'm somewhere and my first urge is to look at my phone (I mean, I used to carry around a book in my bag well before smartphones were a thing, I just need to reset my brain for those things.)
posted by Kitteh at 9:40 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]
Speaking for myself, and only myself, I agree and am doing my best to be a little less phone dependent. (I took games off my phone at the beginning of 2024, and am thinking of taking any social media off my phone in 2025.) I have tucked a book of crosswords in my bag to distract me when I'm somewhere and my first urge is to look at my phone (I mean, I used to carry around a book in my bag well before smartphones were a thing, I just need to reset my brain for those things.)
posted by Kitteh at 9:40 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]
My kid's school has always collected phones at homeroom, and this fall, with very little notice, they started collecting smartwatches as well. The kids each have school issued laptops so anything they're expected to do with technology happens on those.
Our kid goes to school a long bus ride away, across a bridge. I'll admit, it was good for my mental health to know I was able to reach her during the day when she was still wearing a smartwatch, and once or twice it did genuinely help us deal with unexpected transportation hiccups that came up during the day. But...rules are rules, and I'll deal.
posted by potrzebie at 9:40 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
Our kid goes to school a long bus ride away, across a bridge. I'll admit, it was good for my mental health to know I was able to reach her during the day when she was still wearing a smartwatch, and once or twice it did genuinely help us deal with unexpected transportation hiccups that came up during the day. But...rules are rules, and I'll deal.
posted by potrzebie at 9:40 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
that link title goes for adults, too. Phones are entirely too much of everyone's world.
I'm planning on turning to a dumb phone before I get my kid a modern smart phone. It's somewhat terrifying what it's done to me, and I was a late adopter who didn't get one until my brain was fully formed, in my 30s. No way in hell I'm giving a tween that kind of addiction fuel. He can have a phone watch that does messaging and voice.
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:43 AM on November 13 [7 favorites]
I'm planning on turning to a dumb phone before I get my kid a modern smart phone. It's somewhat terrifying what it's done to me, and I was a late adopter who didn't get one until my brain was fully formed, in my 30s. No way in hell I'm giving a tween that kind of addiction fuel. He can have a phone watch that does messaging and voice.
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:43 AM on November 13 [7 favorites]
This is a battle in both my mom and wife's classrooms. My mom is 77 and has zero use for phones in her English class. Her school last year had a polciy where a teacher could send a message to a security list and they'd just come and take the kid's phone until the end of the day. It worked like a charm, but this year they've completely given up because of parental pushback. (I don't know how our parents surivived since we were blank holes in the universe during a school day before phone ubiquity)
My wife uses chromebooks and the like in her class room and lord does she have problems with kids goofing off with them and their phones. Actually though the one that drives her nuts is the kids who will sit blankly in front of the screen doing absolutely nothing.
None of this is to say that kids haven't always zoned out in class, they have, but both of them report that so many of their students don't know seem to know how to interact and work together without a screen between them.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:46 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
My wife uses chromebooks and the like in her class room and lord does she have problems with kids goofing off with them and their phones. Actually though the one that drives her nuts is the kids who will sit blankly in front of the screen doing absolutely nothing.
None of this is to say that kids haven't always zoned out in class, they have, but both of them report that so many of their students don't know seem to know how to interact and work together without a screen between them.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:46 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
I teach in a district that's gone towards more tech, but the students all have a district-issued chromebook so they don't need to have their phones out in class.
We got the chromebooks through a verizon grant, and about once a month we have to close school early to have "training" on how to use more technology with the students, usually focused around offering more student choice and doing student-lead projects.
It might work if you didn't already have a packed curriculum (I'm a math teacher) or if students were more motivated (like an honors class) but I'm pretty skeptical about giving students lots of unstructured time on the tech and asking them to structure it themselves, for the majority of students, at least for math. Maybe I just lack vision.
I also teach an engineering class, and we do a lot of student-lead projects with heavy technology use in that class so really it all depends.
This year the whole math department went in on those hanging calculator pouches that you put on the door, but without a schoolwide policy it's still very difficult to enforce, students just refuse to put their phones in there. The assessments are also online, but on locked websites because the cheating using chatGPT, solvers, etc on the computer was getting so bad. Students algebra skills have definitely gotten weaker because they use solvers at home (and in class if teachers don't monitor), and in response the state tests switched to mostly word problems, contextual problems. But the new online tools can answer those too, though it's very obvious when terrible students use them to write perfect justifications for their proofs and so on.
posted by subdee at 9:47 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
We got the chromebooks through a verizon grant, and about once a month we have to close school early to have "training" on how to use more technology with the students, usually focused around offering more student choice and doing student-lead projects.
It might work if you didn't already have a packed curriculum (I'm a math teacher) or if students were more motivated (like an honors class) but I'm pretty skeptical about giving students lots of unstructured time on the tech and asking them to structure it themselves, for the majority of students, at least for math. Maybe I just lack vision.
I also teach an engineering class, and we do a lot of student-lead projects with heavy technology use in that class so really it all depends.
This year the whole math department went in on those hanging calculator pouches that you put on the door, but without a schoolwide policy it's still very difficult to enforce, students just refuse to put their phones in there. The assessments are also online, but on locked websites because the cheating using chatGPT, solvers, etc on the computer was getting so bad. Students algebra skills have definitely gotten weaker because they use solvers at home (and in class if teachers don't monitor), and in response the state tests switched to mostly word problems, contextual problems. But the new online tools can answer those too, though it's very obvious when terrible students use them to write perfect justifications for their proofs and so on.
posted by subdee at 9:47 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
All it takes is one school shooting while the kids phones are locked up for that idea to never get implemented again. Parents will riot
I thought that too but then, will they though? They don't riot when kids actually get shot, so I'm not sure that "OH NO MY KID DIDN"T HAVE HER CELLPHONE PRIOR TO BEING SHOT BY A MANIAC IN SCHOOL" seems like a bit of a stretch.
posted by nushustu at 9:54 AM on November 13 [17 favorites]
I thought that too but then, will they though? They don't riot when kids actually get shot, so I'm not sure that "OH NO MY KID DIDN"T HAVE HER CELLPHONE PRIOR TO BEING SHOT BY A MANIAC IN SCHOOL" seems like a bit of a stretch.
posted by nushustu at 9:54 AM on November 13 [17 favorites]
Really we need a schoolwide policy on AI use (when not allowed by the teacher) as much as we need one for phone use, but we don't have either of those at the moment.
posted by subdee at 9:54 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 9:54 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
My kids' school has chromebooks, but they are freakin' tiny (12" screens I think) and they really kind of stink for doing homework. They did a year post-covid where all work was on chromebook only, but after that they switched back to plenty of printed work and homework.
Every extracurricular they are in (via a public school) assumes they have a personal phone that can install/access apps.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:56 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
Every extracurricular they are in (via a public school) assumes they have a personal phone that can install/access apps.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:56 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
My daughter is in sixth grade this year, and just started at a middle/high school that is both militantly opposed to phones in classrooms, and run by a guy who has some IT history. Parents of new students have to sign the handbook, explicitly acknowledging the school's policy on student phone usage. Basically: the first time you get caught with your phone out, it disappears for the rest of the day, and is returned to you at 5PM. The second time, it's returned to you the next afternoon. The third time, they keep it for two days. Then four. Then eight.
The principal swears they've never had to go higher than eight, but the exponential-growth algorithm warmed my cold heart heart just a little bit when I first heard it.
posted by Mayor West at 9:57 AM on November 13 [25 favorites]
The principal swears they've never had to go higher than eight, but the exponential-growth algorithm warmed my cold heart heart just a little bit when I first heard it.
posted by Mayor West at 9:57 AM on November 13 [25 favorites]
Yes, the Yondr pouches have been getting a lot of publicity lately. Seattle Times ran a few articles about them. "Kids with no phones are interacting with each other, and acting like kids again!!!"
But, remember when the only phone was on the wall? I am so old...
posted by Windopaene at 10:04 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
But, remember when the only phone was on the wall? I am so old...
posted by Windopaene at 10:04 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
All it takes is one school shooting while the kids phones are locked up for that idea to never get implemented again. Parents will riot
Boston Public Schools have a district-wide policy about lockdown drills. When the alert sounds, teachers have to stop the lesson, lock any (often wooden, sometimes 100+ years old) doors to the classroom, and tape butcher paper over any windows facing outdoors. Because of a separate, conflicting policy enforced by the Boston Fire Department, they can't leave the butcher paper taped to the windows all the time, and because the schools themselves aren't mandated to supply it, it's often in short supply by mid-October.
In conclusion, security theater is alive and well, schools do not actually give the faintest hint of a damn about student safety, and administrators stopped worrying about parent-led revolts sometime during the Clinton administration.
posted by Mayor West at 10:05 AM on November 13 [7 favorites]
Boston Public Schools have a district-wide policy about lockdown drills. When the alert sounds, teachers have to stop the lesson, lock any (often wooden, sometimes 100+ years old) doors to the classroom, and tape butcher paper over any windows facing outdoors. Because of a separate, conflicting policy enforced by the Boston Fire Department, they can't leave the butcher paper taped to the windows all the time, and because the schools themselves aren't mandated to supply it, it's often in short supply by mid-October.
In conclusion, security theater is alive and well, schools do not actually give the faintest hint of a damn about student safety, and administrators stopped worrying about parent-led revolts sometime during the Clinton administration.
posted by Mayor West at 10:05 AM on November 13 [7 favorites]
Teacher here who now works with a population of middle and high schoolers who have not been able to access education in typical ways.
What I see is that schools say there is a no phone policy, but kids are using phones everywhere with zero consequence. Teachers who do try to enforce the rule quickly stop because nothing happens. Admins are not backing teachers.
My students have very clear attachment/anxiety/dopamine issues regarding their phones. They are physically unable to be without them and they need frequent dopamine hits, so I let them have their phones.
The only rule is that phones are not shared experiences, so one's music, one's videos, etc. cannot be shared.
We talk about them entering a world where they will want to have jobs and they will need to learn responsible phone use, but I am too goddamned fried to be the one enforcer in my school.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 10:12 AM on November 13 [13 favorites]
What I see is that schools say there is a no phone policy, but kids are using phones everywhere with zero consequence. Teachers who do try to enforce the rule quickly stop because nothing happens. Admins are not backing teachers.
My students have very clear attachment/anxiety/dopamine issues regarding their phones. They are physically unable to be without them and they need frequent dopamine hits, so I let them have their phones.
The only rule is that phones are not shared experiences, so one's music, one's videos, etc. cannot be shared.
We talk about them entering a world where they will want to have jobs and they will need to learn responsible phone use, but I am too goddamned fried to be the one enforcer in my school.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 10:12 AM on November 13 [13 favorites]
It's only complicated if you are wishy-washy.
It shouldn't be a surprise that having a policy of "teachers tell students not to use their phones" will not be effective. Kids will ignore, kids will sneak, and teachers will be burdened spending class time on enforcement instead of teaching. D'uh.
The policies that work take the phones away from the kids, either by putting them in pouches for the school day or putting them in a phone collection box in at the start of each class. It's not complicated.
If phones are needed for particular assignments, they can be given back to the kids for that particular assignment. But honestly, schools shouldn't be relying on BYOD. There are all sorts of problems with that. They should be providing the tools that kids need for their learning.
You can insulate the policy from parent freakout ("I want to be able to tell my kid I love them before they are shot") by mandating it at the highest level possible, ideally provincial but at minimum school district. Policies defined by individual schools will be more susceptible to pushback from parents and kids.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:16 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]
It shouldn't be a surprise that having a policy of "teachers tell students not to use their phones" will not be effective. Kids will ignore, kids will sneak, and teachers will be burdened spending class time on enforcement instead of teaching. D'uh.
The policies that work take the phones away from the kids, either by putting them in pouches for the school day or putting them in a phone collection box in at the start of each class. It's not complicated.
If phones are needed for particular assignments, they can be given back to the kids for that particular assignment. But honestly, schools shouldn't be relying on BYOD. There are all sorts of problems with that. They should be providing the tools that kids need for their learning.
You can insulate the policy from parent freakout ("I want to be able to tell my kid I love them before they are shot") by mandating it at the highest level possible, ideally provincial but at minimum school district. Policies defined by individual schools will be more susceptible to pushback from parents and kids.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:16 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]
No mention of burner phones? My daughter (15) says some kids use those after they put their regular ones in the pouch thing at the start of each class.
Also: "tape butcher paper over any windows facing outdoors" - what the everloving fuck? This country.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:17 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
Also: "tape butcher paper over any windows facing outdoors" - what the everloving fuck? This country.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:17 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
Daughter's just asked me yesterday if she'd get a phone when she's in 3rd year, said no, then she tried to bargain me to one when she's in highschool :)
She then asked how she could do research for school without a phone... which I guess is my fault, since every time we come across a question I can't answer, I take out my phone and either google the answer and explain or find a video about the topic so she can understand better. I told her we'd have a family laptop for those... she's now worried about forgetting the password for said laptop, kids are cute (I have 0 worries she'll forget the password).
Phones are actually banned in public schools here (in Qc), school have till Dec 2023 to put it into effect (call was made in August). It's an ministry of education decision so that parents can't complain at the local level that the school is preventing them from reaching their child, we'll see how well that works in a few years I guess, don't remember if it's class-only or whole-school. IMHO this needs to be whole-school to be effective. Haven't loved a lof of what this government did but I'm with them on that one.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:21 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
She then asked how she could do research for school without a phone... which I guess is my fault, since every time we come across a question I can't answer, I take out my phone and either google the answer and explain or find a video about the topic so she can understand better. I told her we'd have a family laptop for those... she's now worried about forgetting the password for said laptop, kids are cute (I have 0 worries she'll forget the password).
Phones are actually banned in public schools here (in Qc), school have till Dec 2023 to put it into effect (call was made in August). It's an ministry of education decision so that parents can't complain at the local level that the school is preventing them from reaching their child, we'll see how well that works in a few years I guess, don't remember if it's class-only or whole-school. IMHO this needs to be whole-school to be effective. Haven't loved a lof of what this government did but I'm with them on that one.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:21 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
Also her strongest argument against the school-wide no-phone policy that's just around the corner is "we need them to find our friends between classes!" Sure, kiddo. It's not that big a place.
Sure, they're handy for coordinating pick-ups after school, especially when things change at the last minute. But that's far outweighed by the costs. And they also have access to this strange antique form of communication called email. We survived without them just fine before.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:22 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
Sure, they're handy for coordinating pick-ups after school, especially when things change at the last minute. But that's far outweighed by the costs. And they also have access to this strange antique form of communication called email. We survived without them just fine before.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:22 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
Due to a battery problem, my kid didn't have one, and had to scramble to get a photo to show the teacher the results.
We should never rely on kids to provide their own school supplies. One kid might temporarily not have one, but other kids may not even be able to afford them.
posted by jb at 10:26 AM on November 13 [6 favorites]
We should never rely on kids to provide their own school supplies. One kid might temporarily not have one, but other kids may not even be able to afford them.
posted by jb at 10:26 AM on November 13 [6 favorites]
My children's middle and high school bans personal phones while requiring all work - ALL - to be done on a Chromebook. My kids are bored, disengaged, and beyond frustrated with the fact that the teachers are literally not teaching anymore, instead all the students are spending class after class doing stupid vocabulary drills on an online "game environment" which FORCES THEM TO SPEND 30 SECONDS TO GET THROUGH EACH WORD DEFINITION, because it is of course a "game" and so it must have snazzy music interludes after they get an answer correct/wrong and each transition to the next screen (even if it's just an intermediate screen announcing success!) must have a 5 second animation and there must be curlicues drawn at the bottom of each screen wasting 10 seconds even after my kid has picked the answer before the success/failure screen can be shown.
Do you all understand how insane this is? Can you imagine how frustrating it is for these teenagers?
My 11 grader son has a computer game he must play for history class assignments where he needs to "grind" for 15 minutes planting in-game "corn" in order to build up his food supply. Then once he hits the minimum required amount of corn planting, he can START taking the history quiz which will use up some of his corn for every wrong answer he gets. Note: this corn planting is mandatory. And it involves clicking his mouse first ~here~ and then scroll scroll scroll scroll ~there~, followed by scroll scroll scroll scroll ~here again~ and then scroll scroll scroll scroll ~there again~ to harvest. There is no learning during corn planting. I cannot emphasize that enough. It is pure grind.
Like. This is the definition of insanity, you know/ I would much much much rather my kids were on their phones texting their friends or listening to music or even playing fucking candy crush. Because playing candy crush is better than actively killing their souls with this type of "learning activity".
What I'm saying is, fuck schools these days. Fuck all of us for not being able to do anything about it. And we're all even more fucked with Melon Husk in charge of cutting federal spending because he's going to make all of this so much worse.
posted by MiraK at 10:31 AM on November 13 [31 favorites]
Do you all understand how insane this is? Can you imagine how frustrating it is for these teenagers?
My 11 grader son has a computer game he must play for history class assignments where he needs to "grind" for 15 minutes planting in-game "corn" in order to build up his food supply. Then once he hits the minimum required amount of corn planting, he can START taking the history quiz which will use up some of his corn for every wrong answer he gets. Note: this corn planting is mandatory. And it involves clicking his mouse first ~here~ and then scroll scroll scroll scroll ~there~, followed by scroll scroll scroll scroll ~here again~ and then scroll scroll scroll scroll ~there again~ to harvest. There is no learning during corn planting. I cannot emphasize that enough. It is pure grind.
Like. This is the definition of insanity, you know/ I would much much much rather my kids were on their phones texting their friends or listening to music or even playing fucking candy crush. Because playing candy crush is better than actively killing their souls with this type of "learning activity".
What I'm saying is, fuck schools these days. Fuck all of us for not being able to do anything about it. And we're all even more fucked with Melon Husk in charge of cutting federal spending because he's going to make all of this so much worse.
posted by MiraK at 10:31 AM on November 13 [31 favorites]
MiraK, that is terrible and makes no sense. Is this true across the district or is it just the one school? Have parents complained? It’s hard to see how anyone could justify what you describe and call it “teaching”.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:48 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:48 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
I got steaming mad last year when my teen, who had a dumb phone lost points because the teacher had kids turn work in by sending in a photo of the assignment, and he couldn't read the blurry photo from her laptop camera!
What about kids whose families can't drop 100s on a smart phone?
posted by being_quiet at 10:53 AM on November 13 [14 favorites]
What about kids whose families can't drop 100s on a smart phone?
posted by being_quiet at 10:53 AM on November 13 [14 favorites]
MiraK, that sounds really weird, as a high school teacher in the US. I'm not sure if there's really a connection to the use of the Chromebooks, as we have our students do most of their work on them and it is still much more rigorous than what you're describing.
(I will also say "Teachers don't teach anymore" seems to be a perennial complaint. There are bad teachers who "don't teach" and let the computer do all the work, and there are also good teachers who don't deliver content through lecture who might be accused of the same thing.)
posted by chaiminda at 10:56 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
(I will also say "Teachers don't teach anymore" seems to be a perennial complaint. There are bad teachers who "don't teach" and let the computer do all the work, and there are also good teachers who don't deliver content through lecture who might be accused of the same thing.)
posted by chaiminda at 10:56 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
There’s a schoolbus stop across the street from me. Every morning, there are about six-to-eight kids (middle school and high schoolers) standing out there waiting for the bus. All of them staring down at the phone in their hand. No interaction with each other. Not so much as a nod or hello. Just staring at the phone.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:04 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:04 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
or putting them in a phone collection box in at the start of each class. It's not complicated.
Is it common for people to be okay putting a valuable item in a box where others can easily grab it at the end of the class? Seems like another way for kids to mess with each other.
posted by soelo at 11:06 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
Is it common for people to be okay putting a valuable item in a box where others can easily grab it at the end of the class? Seems like another way for kids to mess with each other.
posted by soelo at 11:06 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]
I haven't heard any reports of phones being stolen from phone caddies in classrooms. It may be that in locales where that is an issue, the phones are collected by the teacher and handed back at the end of class.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:14 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:14 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
Every morning, there are about six-to-eight kids (middle school and high schoolers) standing out there waiting for the bus. All of them staring down at the phone in their hand.
That's why some people advocate taking phones away for the full school day, not just during classes. "The cafeteria was noisy! Kids were talking to each other!"
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:16 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
That's why some people advocate taking phones away for the full school day, not just during classes. "The cafeteria was noisy! Kids were talking to each other!"
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:16 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]
I ignored the other kids the way God intended, by blasting music through my crappy earbuds
posted by BungaDunga at 11:28 AM on November 13 [10 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 11:28 AM on November 13 [10 favorites]
Okay, I have direct experience here, both as a university classroom instructor and a father of two teens.
In my classes, which are usually less than 30 people, I make it clear from the start that phones, laptops and tablets have to be stowed in backpacks/pockets, and that I will publicly embarrass you if I see you on your phone, and I can totally tell you are. They whine at the beginning about "I can't take notes without my computer", and I'm like I'm Gen X, I don't give a shit, use pen and paper, and by two weeks in, it's never a problem. I make it clear there's an exception for My Grandma is in Surgery, and students will honor that for the very most part. But I teach upper-division classes in two subjects considered difficult, so I don't get the Average Shitty Students.
Older Daughter (10th grade) goes to a school where they introduced a no phones at all policy this year. It's a complete shitshow. The students have to put their phone in a fabric pouch [edit: it's a Yondr pouch] when they enter the school, and they use one of those department-store theft prevention machines to seal the pouch shut, and then you get it unsealed when you leave for the day. I thought they were clever enough to make the pouch a Faraday cage, but it's not.
Within like two weeks, everyone had sorted out how to break and reseal the pouches. Older Daughter has some ADHD/sensory issues, so she can't tolerate a classroom full of shouting teens and actually get any work done: she needs headphones and music, just like I did with my Sony Walkman cassette player back in 1983. The school admins just refused to allow this, saying that even if we did get her an IEP they wouldn't let music on a phone be part of it. She couldn't wear Bluetooth headphones, either. So what we've done is given her an old phone with no phone plan to put in the pouch, and she puts her real phone in her leggings to get in the door, then puts it in her backpack, puts Bluetooth earbuds in and puts wood shop earphones, the sound-blocking kind that aren't Bluetooth, over those, so nobody can see the earbuds. She's doing great in school. She says 90% of the kids have full access to their own phones. The whole thing is so painfully stupid. She says it was much better last year when all the teachers had shoe... not racks, but whatever one calls the kind that hang over a door, and the phones had to go there. But her grades were lousy.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:37 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]
In my classes, which are usually less than 30 people, I make it clear from the start that phones, laptops and tablets have to be stowed in backpacks/pockets, and that I will publicly embarrass you if I see you on your phone, and I can totally tell you are. They whine at the beginning about "I can't take notes without my computer", and I'm like I'm Gen X, I don't give a shit, use pen and paper, and by two weeks in, it's never a problem. I make it clear there's an exception for My Grandma is in Surgery, and students will honor that for the very most part. But I teach upper-division classes in two subjects considered difficult, so I don't get the Average Shitty Students.
Older Daughter (10th grade) goes to a school where they introduced a no phones at all policy this year. It's a complete shitshow. The students have to put their phone in a fabric pouch [edit: it's a Yondr pouch] when they enter the school, and they use one of those department-store theft prevention machines to seal the pouch shut, and then you get it unsealed when you leave for the day. I thought they were clever enough to make the pouch a Faraday cage, but it's not.
Within like two weeks, everyone had sorted out how to break and reseal the pouches. Older Daughter has some ADHD/sensory issues, so she can't tolerate a classroom full of shouting teens and actually get any work done: she needs headphones and music, just like I did with my Sony Walkman cassette player back in 1983. The school admins just refused to allow this, saying that even if we did get her an IEP they wouldn't let music on a phone be part of it. She couldn't wear Bluetooth headphones, either. So what we've done is given her an old phone with no phone plan to put in the pouch, and she puts her real phone in her leggings to get in the door, then puts it in her backpack, puts Bluetooth earbuds in and puts wood shop earphones, the sound-blocking kind that aren't Bluetooth, over those, so nobody can see the earbuds. She's doing great in school. She says 90% of the kids have full access to their own phones. The whole thing is so painfully stupid. She says it was much better last year when all the teachers had shoe... not racks, but whatever one calls the kind that hang over a door, and the phones had to go there. But her grades were lousy.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:37 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]
All it takes is one school shooting while the kids phones are locked up for that idea to never get implemented again. Parents will riot
I thought that too but then, will they though? They don't riot when kids actually get shot, so I'm not sure that "OH NO MY KID DIDN"T HAVE HER CELLPHONE PRIOR TO BEING SHOT BY A MANIAC IN SCHOOL" seems like a bit of a stretch.
Yelling at teachers is a million times easier than yelling at... whatever we want to blame shootings on, so I believe it.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:39 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
I thought that too but then, will they though? They don't riot when kids actually get shot, so I'm not sure that "OH NO MY KID DIDN"T HAVE HER CELLPHONE PRIOR TO BEING SHOT BY A MANIAC IN SCHOOL" seems like a bit of a stretch.
Yelling at teachers is a million times easier than yelling at... whatever we want to blame shootings on, so I believe it.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:39 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]
I've been working in the school district long enough to see the shift from parents demanding that we keep their kids off their phones to parents demanding that we allow their kids to text during the school day.
"...seems like a bit of a stretch" I assure you, it's anything but. The threat is driven home every time a shooting is in the news or a invader drill is run. At best, nearly every parent would seek out an exception for their own child.
It's not just that though. Is mom doing door dash this evening? Did dad get called into work? Will a grandparent or a friend's parent be taking you home today? The situation changes so rapidly, it feels like scheduling is much more chaotic than it use to be.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 12:01 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]
"...seems like a bit of a stretch" I assure you, it's anything but. The threat is driven home every time a shooting is in the news or a invader drill is run. At best, nearly every parent would seek out an exception for their own child.
It's not just that though. Is mom doing door dash this evening? Did dad get called into work? Will a grandparent or a friend's parent be taking you home today? The situation changes so rapidly, it feels like scheduling is much more chaotic than it use to be.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 12:01 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]
For those who are asking, those insane games my kids are being forced to play are part of a test run particular to certain classrooms this ear in their respective schools. Sucks that both my kids are in classrooms that got picked for the experiment.
If the trest scores in these classrooms show an uptick compared to the others, heaven forbid, they will expand the pilot program to all classrooms. And then we will be completely doomed.
I have complained to the school, and so have other parents. We are told that this is just how it is for this year in these classrooms and hey, if it's really as bad as we think, it won't be adopted next year.
posted by MiraK at 12:04 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]
If the trest scores in these classrooms show an uptick compared to the others, heaven forbid, they will expand the pilot program to all classrooms. And then we will be completely doomed.
I have complained to the school, and so have other parents. We are told that this is just how it is for this year in these classrooms and hey, if it's really as bad as we think, it won't be adopted next year.
posted by MiraK at 12:04 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]
We should never rely on kids to provide their own school supplies. One kid might temporarily not have one, but other kids may not even be able to afford them.
I got steaming mad last year when my teen, who had a dumb phone lost points because the teacher had kids turn work in by sending in a photo of the assignment, and he couldn't read the blurry photo from her laptop camera!
Ahh, memories of getting flunked on a paper because I did it on a typewriter instead of a computer, which my family did not have. We were a family that respected and prioritized education but my mother still uses that teacher's name as an all-purpose curse word.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:09 PM on November 13 [16 favorites]
I got steaming mad last year when my teen, who had a dumb phone lost points because the teacher had kids turn work in by sending in a photo of the assignment, and he couldn't read the blurry photo from her laptop camera!
Ahh, memories of getting flunked on a paper because I did it on a typewriter instead of a computer, which my family did not have. We were a family that respected and prioritized education but my mother still uses that teacher's name as an all-purpose curse word.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:09 PM on November 13 [16 favorites]
All it takes is one school shooting while the kids phones are locked up
Easy solution! All students must put their guns in Yondr pouch as well!
posted by chavenet at 12:18 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]
Easy solution! All students must put their guns in Yondr pouch as well!
posted by chavenet at 12:18 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]
My sympathies to all you teachers being forced to do more with less and then being the scapegoat whenever a kid is denied something and the helicopter parents come out. (I did not expect a lot of folks in my age cohort to be helicopter parents! It's wild to see!)
posted by Kitteh at 12:29 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:29 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
Like. This is the definition of insanity, you know/ I would much much much rather my kids were on their phones texting their friends or listening to music or even playing fucking candy crush. Because playing candy crush is better than actively killing their souls with this type of "learning activity".
It's not either/or. The Chromebook activity your kid's teachers are assigning are very simply lazy teaching, and that could be a stupid computer game or a stupid analog worksheet. And if these stupid Chromebook computer games are happening in all classes, then that's an admin decision, and the teachers are likely to be just following out orders as frustrated as everyone else. Doesn't mean that access to cell phones will promote learning of any kind. Both are problems.
Anyway, here in Japan, my 15-year-old goes to a public high school. He takes his cell phone with him. The Tokyo government started allowing junior and senior high students to take their phones to school, mainly for parents to be able to contact their kids in case of an earthquake. So virtually all kids have cell phones but they are generally not to be used during class. At lunchtime, between classes, it's fine, but teachers are very strict about classtime. Sometimes kids use them for a Google Form quiz or the like, but it's all at the discretion of the teacher.
Believe me that my son makes up for it before and after class (and well into the night), but phone usage during actual classtime isn't a problem. Of course, even in Japan there are different norms and cultures at each individual school, so I wonder how many actually do have a rampant cell phone usage problem.
posted by zardoz at 12:34 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]
It's not either/or. The Chromebook activity your kid's teachers are assigning are very simply lazy teaching, and that could be a stupid computer game or a stupid analog worksheet. And if these stupid Chromebook computer games are happening in all classes, then that's an admin decision, and the teachers are likely to be just following out orders as frustrated as everyone else. Doesn't mean that access to cell phones will promote learning of any kind. Both are problems.
Anyway, here in Japan, my 15-year-old goes to a public high school. He takes his cell phone with him. The Tokyo government started allowing junior and senior high students to take their phones to school, mainly for parents to be able to contact their kids in case of an earthquake. So virtually all kids have cell phones but they are generally not to be used during class. At lunchtime, between classes, it's fine, but teachers are very strict about classtime. Sometimes kids use them for a Google Form quiz or the like, but it's all at the discretion of the teacher.
Believe me that my son makes up for it before and after class (and well into the night), but phone usage during actual classtime isn't a problem. Of course, even in Japan there are different norms and cultures at each individual school, so I wonder how many actually do have a rampant cell phone usage problem.
posted by zardoz at 12:34 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]
Our school district is in the second year of Yondr bag usage. My high school son figured out how to open and reseal them in the first 36 hours (bend the locking pin just slightly so it holds closed under pressure, but not too much pressure; you get one chance per day to get it right, when the bag is unlocked at the end of the day). He also got a detention the other day for using his personal computer instead of the school issued Chromebook. The irony is, he was using it for school and needed music for a coding project that he couldn't get around the content filters on his school laptop. This is his third or fourth IT-related detention. And he goes to the STEM school for their cybersecurity track!
posted by slogger at 1:07 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
posted by slogger at 1:07 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
This is his third or fourth IT-related detention. And he goes to the STEM school for their cybersecurity track!
I trust he's using those detentions to show him where his opsec fails are, and working to correct those?
posted by flabdablet at 1:19 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]
I trust he's using those detentions to show him where his opsec fails are, and working to correct those?
posted by flabdablet at 1:19 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]
All of them staring down at the phone in their hand. No interaction with each other. Not so much as a nod or hello. Just staring at the phone.
Well, at least that means they’re not bullying me.
I mean them! Bullying one of them..
posted by Horace Rumpole at 1:27 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]
Well, at least that means they’re not bullying me.
I mean them! Bullying one of them..
posted by Horace Rumpole at 1:27 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]
My 11 grader son has a computer game he must play for history class assignments where he needs to "grind" for 15 minutes planting in-game "corn" in order to build up his food supply. Then once he hits the minimum required amount of corn planting, he can START taking the history quiz which will use up some of his corn for every wrong answer he gets. Note: this corn planting is mandatory.
Having to drudge away growing corn might be a great history lesson... only probably they should get the kids outside under a hot sun with a hoe in their hands for the full experience of what 99% of history was like.
posted by jb at 1:40 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
Having to drudge away growing corn might be a great history lesson... only probably they should get the kids outside under a hot sun with a hoe in their hands for the full experience of what 99% of history was like.
posted by jb at 1:40 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
I have complained to the school, and so have other parents. We are told that this is just how it is for this year in these classrooms and hey, if it's really as bad as we think, it won't be adopted next year.
I wonder how the school would react if you said parents were considering the possibility of a class action for using their kids as experimental subjects without parents' consent.
posted by jamjam at 1:45 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]
I wonder how the school would react if you said parents were considering the possibility of a class action for using their kids as experimental subjects without parents' consent.
posted by jamjam at 1:45 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]
This is a battle in both my mom and wife's classrooms. My mom is 77
[record scratch]
holy shit
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:45 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]
[record scratch]
holy shit
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:45 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]
When I was in school in the dark ages we were discouraged/not allowed to bring game boys and discmen because schools didn't want those distractions. It's wild to me that kids walk around with $$$ devices.
As a parent it's tough to hold the line when everyone else is getting devices. We arbitrarily set the age of 13 as the age of the cellphone but my kids have had access to tablets (iPads) and desktop computers. It's weird watching the duplication of toys in the virtual space. Coloring book apps. Pet apps. The SIMs etc. Musical instruments. Like every physical toy has a matching digital equivalent. Sometimes when the house is messy I think about binning all the toys and just having an iPad since that seems to be what the kids prefer anyways. But that's a step too close to Idiocracy for me.
posted by MadMadam at 3:00 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]
As a parent it's tough to hold the line when everyone else is getting devices. We arbitrarily set the age of 13 as the age of the cellphone but my kids have had access to tablets (iPads) and desktop computers. It's weird watching the duplication of toys in the virtual space. Coloring book apps. Pet apps. The SIMs etc. Musical instruments. Like every physical toy has a matching digital equivalent. Sometimes when the house is messy I think about binning all the toys and just having an iPad since that seems to be what the kids prefer anyways. But that's a step too close to Idiocracy for me.
posted by MadMadam at 3:00 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]
This is a battle in both my mom and wife's classrooms. My mom is 77
[record scratch]
holy shit
yes well you have to grind until we say you can do something else.
of all the things that give me guillotine-feelings, the creeping colonisation of my job by the bad software that makes you teach worse for no reason is pretty high on the list.
the corn game, as either teacher or student, would put me fully over the edge.
the only silver lining will be if an account of this terrible experiment appears in the education theory literature with the obvious title.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:01 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]
[record scratch]
holy shit
yes well you have to grind until we say you can do something else.
of all the things that give me guillotine-feelings, the creeping colonisation of my job by the bad software that makes you teach worse for no reason is pretty high on the list.
the corn game, as either teacher or student, would put me fully over the edge.
the only silver lining will be if an account of this terrible experiment appears in the education theory literature with the obvious title.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:01 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]
This is a battle in both my mom and wife's classrooms. My mom is 77To be fair - she actually retired when she was 72 and then got so bored and mentally squishy after a year and a half or so that she went back to the school she had taught at and asked if she could tutor. They offered her her job back instead.
[record scratch]
holy shit
My family has a bad allergic reaction to being "retired retired" and we all tend to die within two years of not working at something.
She has promised me that this will be her last year of teaching and then she really will tutor.
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:10 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]
"NO FLASH GAMES ON LIBRARY COMPUTERS"
posted by AlSweigart at 3:27 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 3:27 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]
Interesting. I just go the first notification from our local schools about Virginia's incipient cell phone ban in schools, so I will pass this on to my contacts on the school board and other local leadership.
posted by daHIFI at 4:43 PM on November 13
posted by daHIFI at 4:43 PM on November 13
In times long past, this planet was the home of a mighty, noble race of beings who called themselves the Krell. Ethically, as well as technologically they were a million years ahead of humankind, for in unlocking the mysteries of nature they had conquered even their baser selves, ... The heights they had reached. Then, seemingly on the eve of some great technological achievement, this all but divine race perished in a single night.
Dr. Morbius
We have made our own great machine, just like the Krell. Only ours seems to be taking more than a single night to destroy us
posted by Relay at 5:57 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
Dr. Morbius
We have made our own great machine, just like the Krell. Only ours seems to be taking more than a single night to destroy us
posted by Relay at 5:57 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]
ours seems to be taking more than a single night
Using this time scaling, I'll be surprised if it takes more than that.
posted by flabdablet at 6:38 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]
Using this time scaling, I'll be surprised if it takes more than that.
posted by flabdablet at 6:38 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]
The world is changing. Most kids no longer benefit from school as it is today, so it’s no wonder they are so distracted with phones and goofing off with tech. Public schools are still trying to teach you pedestrian skills for a world that hasn’t existed for 30+ years. Private schools know this and have moved on. They don’t allow phones and everybody complies without question. Everyone knows phones are easy and will be learned at home, so keeping them out is a priority for parents and educators alike. These schools teach compassion, strategy, bible, high level math, sportsmanship, emotional intelligence, biology, physics, music theory, and more - and that’s just the elementary students. These are the kids who will some day run the world - many are getting their start before finishing the middle school years. They play with their phones at home and know the boundaries. That’s more than most of us adults can say.
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 9:50 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 9:50 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]
Public schools famously never teach compassion, sportsmanship, or biology. We force children to memorize math facts in a windowless room for eight hours and then send them home with homework. It's why I got into teaching!
posted by chaiminda at 3:09 AM on November 14 [8 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 3:09 AM on November 14 [8 favorites]
Some time ago I read about the school in Silicon Valley where the wealthy tech people send their kids. Basically no screens, no computers. Lots of reading and writing (on paper-- what a concept.) Of course this runs counter to what these same people are pushing on our kids, but that kind of hypocrisy tracks in the tech world.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:25 AM on November 14 [8 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 4:25 AM on November 14 [8 favorites]
teach you pedestrian skills for a world that hasn’t existed for 30+ years
you mean the world where actual literacy is maybe widespread enough and the information environment is maybe just barely manageable enough and enough humans have maybe enough free time and mental energy to figure out what's going on around them to maybe have some sort of meaningful collective agency? the world where everyone isn't drowned in hype and bullshit and fundamental democratic institutions (i'm talking public schools, here, which for whatever failings they have are the democratic institution) aren't constantly undermined by bullshit like this?
this comment isn't wrong on certain particulars but gtf outta here with private schools.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:45 AM on November 14 [9 favorites]
you mean the world where actual literacy is maybe widespread enough and the information environment is maybe just barely manageable enough and enough humans have maybe enough free time and mental energy to figure out what's going on around them to maybe have some sort of meaningful collective agency? the world where everyone isn't drowned in hype and bullshit and fundamental democratic institutions (i'm talking public schools, here, which for whatever failings they have are the democratic institution) aren't constantly undermined by bullshit like this?
this comment isn't wrong on certain particulars but gtf outta here with private schools.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:45 AM on November 14 [9 favorites]
For those who are asking, those insane games my kids are being forced to play are part of a test run particular to certain classrooms this ear in their respective schools. Sucks that both my kids are in classrooms that got picked for the experiment.
If the trest scores in these classrooms show an uptick compared to the others, heaven forbid, they will expand the pilot program to all classrooms. And then we will be completely doomed.
Assuming there would be no significant downside for your children specifically (e.g. being held back or somesuch), I would suggest that it would be in their (and their classmates') interest to purposefully fail the end of year testing. Like, take half the questions on each section seriously and guess randomly on the rest, even better if they only do it for the sections relevant to the subjects the horrid games were used for.
posted by jedicus at 6:09 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]
If the trest scores in these classrooms show an uptick compared to the others, heaven forbid, they will expand the pilot program to all classrooms. And then we will be completely doomed.
Assuming there would be no significant downside for your children specifically (e.g. being held back or somesuch), I would suggest that it would be in their (and their classmates') interest to purposefully fail the end of year testing. Like, take half the questions on each section seriously and guess randomly on the rest, even better if they only do it for the sections relevant to the subjects the horrid games were used for.
posted by jedicus at 6:09 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]
Basically: the first time you get caught with your phone out, it disappears for the rest of the day, and is returned to you at 5PM. The second time, it's returned to you the next afternoon. The third time, they keep it for two days. Then four. Then eight.
I like this but I wonder if it's legal - keeping student's property for days?
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:54 AM on November 14
I like this but I wonder if it's legal - keeping student's property for days?
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:54 AM on November 14
Private schools know this and have moved on.
There is a conversation to be had about how we should be educating our kids for the world we live in, and I'm not sure by your comment that the conversation can properly start, but I am open to that.
The thing about private and charter schools is that they can be selective and often present barriers to enrolment to ensure a type of student population. The public school system in Canada, and I suspect this is similar to the US, is enshrined in ideas that go back generations and some of those ideas are pretty great. The fact that in our current times, many of those ideas stand in opposition to what powerful interests are trying to achieve, bears circumspection. Public schools have to serve the public, and as a starting point that is how we should be comparing models.
posted by ginger.beef at 6:59 AM on November 14 [4 favorites]
There is a conversation to be had about how we should be educating our kids for the world we live in, and I'm not sure by your comment that the conversation can properly start, but I am open to that.
The thing about private and charter schools is that they can be selective and often present barriers to enrolment to ensure a type of student population. The public school system in Canada, and I suspect this is similar to the US, is enshrined in ideas that go back generations and some of those ideas are pretty great. The fact that in our current times, many of those ideas stand in opposition to what powerful interests are trying to achieve, bears circumspection. Public schools have to serve the public, and as a starting point that is how we should be comparing models.
posted by ginger.beef at 6:59 AM on November 14 [4 favorites]
The Chromebook activity your kid's teachers are assigning are very simply lazy teaching...
No. To be fair, it's terrible administrators. No teachers want to be using these stupid computers but we are forced to as we get written up if the kids are not doing IXL and all the other completely stupid programs the curriculum "experts" who never set a foot in a classroom make the district purchase.
Trust us. We hate the Chromebooks more than the kids do.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 8:40 AM on November 14 [7 favorites]
No. To be fair, it's terrible administrators. No teachers want to be using these stupid computers but we are forced to as we get written up if the kids are not doing IXL and all the other completely stupid programs the curriculum "experts" who never set a foot in a classroom make the district purchase.
Trust us. We hate the Chromebooks more than the kids do.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 8:40 AM on November 14 [7 favorites]
Private schools know this and have moved on.
Hate to bust your bubble here but I work in the ed tech industry and I'm sorry, we still sell absolute assloads of mobile software to private schools.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:40 AM on November 14 [5 favorites]
Hate to bust your bubble here but I work in the ed tech industry and I'm sorry, we still sell absolute assloads of mobile software to private schools.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:40 AM on November 14 [5 favorites]
The world is changing. Most kids no longer benefit from school as it is today, so it’s no wonder they are so distracted with phones and goofing off with tech.
a) Have you ever actually met a kid? A kid with a phone on them? Somehow all kids (and most adults) I know, including me, manage to get distracted with phones and tech regardless of what's going on around us. Doubly so when the alternative is doing something that requires some focus, or patience, or some of the mental pain of thinking things that don't come naturally.
b) "Most kids no longer benefit from school" - citation deeply needed. (Also: I have been hearing this claim since I was in school myself, and I think it probably preceded me by at least a few decades.)
posted by trig at 10:33 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]
a) Have you ever actually met a kid? A kid with a phone on them? Somehow all kids (and most adults) I know, including me, manage to get distracted with phones and tech regardless of what's going on around us. Doubly so when the alternative is doing something that requires some focus, or patience, or some of the mental pain of thinking things that don't come naturally.
b) "Most kids no longer benefit from school" - citation deeply needed. (Also: I have been hearing this claim since I was in school myself, and I think it probably preceded me by at least a few decades.)
posted by trig at 10:33 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]
I have a couple of teenagers. Their high school has a phone box (25 cubbies) in each classroom. Phone goes there during class. Seems to work, mainly. A more nuanced approach.
Yesterday, another local high school had someone write a lengthy threat to shoot lots of people, on the bathroom stall wall. Photos of the screed circulated. Today, I got text messages from one of my kids that the police were at their school and "word was" someone was going to shoot up the school today or tomorrow.
Now, as a parent, school shootings, the prospect of school shootings is scary as hell. It is very hard for students and parents just knowing that this is a possibility. The anxiety and uncertainty is painful to them and us. And, there is nothing we can do. Even in knowing the situation today, my only option would be to go and pick them up. The school has yet to address today's situation with parents. I guess that's ok, but, maybe not. Do they have an obligation to tell me what is going on and why? Probably, but, maybe not. My child texted me so I was able to give her some context and try to ground her in facts (that there was no lockdown, that there was no threat on her campus, etc) but that is cold comfort. I appreciated knowing. The mind and the heart were conflicted.
So, my child did not have full access to her phone today but did have enough access to tell me she feared a school shooting was immanent. I suppose that is the best case scenario, maybe?
posted by zerobyproxy at 11:35 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]
Yesterday, another local high school had someone write a lengthy threat to shoot lots of people, on the bathroom stall wall. Photos of the screed circulated. Today, I got text messages from one of my kids that the police were at their school and "word was" someone was going to shoot up the school today or tomorrow.
Now, as a parent, school shootings, the prospect of school shootings is scary as hell. It is very hard for students and parents just knowing that this is a possibility. The anxiety and uncertainty is painful to them and us. And, there is nothing we can do. Even in knowing the situation today, my only option would be to go and pick them up. The school has yet to address today's situation with parents. I guess that's ok, but, maybe not. Do they have an obligation to tell me what is going on and why? Probably, but, maybe not. My child texted me so I was able to give her some context and try to ground her in facts (that there was no lockdown, that there was no threat on her campus, etc) but that is cold comfort. I appreciated knowing. The mind and the heart were conflicted.
So, my child did not have full access to her phone today but did have enough access to tell me she feared a school shooting was immanent. I suppose that is the best case scenario, maybe?
posted by zerobyproxy at 11:35 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]
The large (well over 1000 kids) urban middle school I teach at instituted a fairly draconian phone policy this year. Phones are to be in hallway lockers and If staff sees a phone or smartwatch, at all, even in a pocket, before the end of the day we send the kid with it to the office to deposit it and they can get the item at the end of the day. First one’s a freebie and after that there are escalating consequences that most kids never see. The kids all have school-issued Chromebooks and we also no longer allow any personal technology other than that in the building.
I have more than 200 students and the 3 diabetic kids with a medical reason for phone use have had their teachers alerted and educated + use them only as needed for monitoring (at least in my class).
Honestly, as a teacher, it has been *great.* Way fewer bathroom vape parties, and bullying/fights are less of a problem than they were last year. Kids talk to each other at lunch (where we don’t even allow the Chromebooks). There was a lot of initial pushback from parents, and we had to retrain them all to just call the school to get a urgent messages to their kids, but my admin stood strong and the people above her backed her up. She told me that at parent teacher conferences the “ratio of thank you to screw you” was strongly in favor of thank you.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:55 AM on November 15 [5 favorites]
I have more than 200 students and the 3 diabetic kids with a medical reason for phone use have had their teachers alerted and educated + use them only as needed for monitoring (at least in my class).
Honestly, as a teacher, it has been *great.* Way fewer bathroom vape parties, and bullying/fights are less of a problem than they were last year. Kids talk to each other at lunch (where we don’t even allow the Chromebooks). There was a lot of initial pushback from parents, and we had to retrain them all to just call the school to get a urgent messages to their kids, but my admin stood strong and the people above her backed her up. She told me that at parent teacher conferences the “ratio of thank you to screw you” was strongly in favor of thank you.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:55 AM on November 15 [5 favorites]
do richer kids with fancier phones just take better photos in photography class and generally have less stress
This reminds me of a similar situation from times long past (the early 1970s). When I first went into college, pocket electronic calculators were banned in class; we all used slide rules. The former weren't allowed because only the rich kids had them. I dropped out for a couple years and when I came back, the slide rule had been relegated to the dustbin of history; everyone had a pocket calculator.
posted by Rash at 10:41 AM on November 15
This reminds me of a similar situation from times long past (the early 1970s). When I first went into college, pocket electronic calculators were banned in class; we all used slide rules. The former weren't allowed because only the rich kids had them. I dropped out for a couple years and when I came back, the slide rule had been relegated to the dustbin of history; everyone had a pocket calculator.
posted by Rash at 10:41 AM on November 15
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Big tech firms proposed another theory: students were falling behind because textbooks and blackboards weren’t stimulating enough. “Far too many students find their schooling boring and irrelevant,” wrote a former Microsoft employee in a report that Pearson, one of the world’s largest education companies, presented to Canadian school boards and policymakers in 2014. Another report, produced by Apple, proposed a fix: “Students learn better when they are engaged, and research about what engages them points to technology.” To reach students, Apple contended, schools needed screens, and lots of them.
Can't be a coincidence how much this resembles tobacco marketing. Falling behind at work? You just need more stimulation...
posted by BungaDunga at 9:08 AM on November 13 [22 favorites]