'A canonical belief, centuries old, in the “loss of community.”'
November 25, 2024 9:05 AM Subscribe
The Myth of the Loneliness Epidemic (Claude S. Fischer, Asterisk magazine)
I'm lonely.
posted by Czjewel at 9:37 AM on November 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 9:37 AM on November 25, 2024 [5 favorites]
I've cited Shasta Nelson on MeFi before with regards to reading about friendships, but she has categories of friendships that make sense. Like I technically have a large number of friends, but it does range from people I'm close to to what I'd call "circumstantial friends," in which you're only friends when in the same location and otherwise the friendship doesn't really develop out of that location. There's historical friendships in which you were close to someone back in the day, but they moved and thus you hear from them 1-2x a year. It varies.
I think what I miss myself is having someone who I'm really close to. Like I have great friends, but I can't really have "family" closeness or romantic partner closeness with those people. I've tried to do "found family" but most people settle down into romantic life partnerships or they have their own close family and it just hasn't worked to do that sort of grouping. I can't snuggle in bed with those people. I feel like that's my loneliness issue: that I can't have that level of SUPER closeness with anyone in this lifetime because nobody wants to with me.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:40 AM on November 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
I think what I miss myself is having someone who I'm really close to. Like I have great friends, but I can't really have "family" closeness or romantic partner closeness with those people. I've tried to do "found family" but most people settle down into romantic life partnerships or they have their own close family and it just hasn't worked to do that sort of grouping. I can't snuggle in bed with those people. I feel like that's my loneliness issue: that I can't have that level of SUPER closeness with anyone in this lifetime because nobody wants to with me.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:40 AM on November 25, 2024 [17 favorites]
Then there are cross-cultural variations in “friends.” For generations, visiting foreigners have complained that Americans are very friendly but very unlikely to form deeply committed friendships. A French person feels free — indeed, feels obliged — to intervene for a friend in need, even to take control if necessary, observed a French anthropologist, while an American waits to be asked to help rather than undermine the friend’s independence.
I was glad to see this. Something I see a lot both on Metafilter and pretty much everywhere on the English-language internet, and among a lot of Americans I know irl, is a set of very firm and definite convictions about how there's a "right" way to have "boundaries" and avoid "controlling" people and so forth - all things that can be really good! But in which my calibration, as someone who's only partly American, is pretty different than a lot of the very absolute interpretations I've been seeing. It helps to remember that even if a cultural attitude can be good, it's often not the only way to be good, and isn't a set-in-stone truth but a product of a specific place and time. (And when different attitudes about this stuff interact, the result is often people offended or hurt on both sides, unless there's a lot of awareness of "oh, that person is operating within framework X, and that framework has value too".)
posted by trig at 9:44 AM on November 25, 2024 [39 favorites]
I was glad to see this. Something I see a lot both on Metafilter and pretty much everywhere on the English-language internet, and among a lot of Americans I know irl, is a set of very firm and definite convictions about how there's a "right" way to have "boundaries" and avoid "controlling" people and so forth - all things that can be really good! But in which my calibration, as someone who's only partly American, is pretty different than a lot of the very absolute interpretations I've been seeing. It helps to remember that even if a cultural attitude can be good, it's often not the only way to be good, and isn't a set-in-stone truth but a product of a specific place and time. (And when different attitudes about this stuff interact, the result is often people offended or hurt on both sides, unless there's a lot of awareness of "oh, that person is operating within framework X, and that framework has value too".)
posted by trig at 9:44 AM on November 25, 2024 [39 favorites]
Essentially the author claims that loneliness is a recurring fad issue in the US, and then lists a strong collection of information / claims on the subject. To claim an 'epidemic' is to package up a collection of innate fears into an anxiety provoking device to keep people on the self-help treadmill.
My own experience is that worrying about loneliness makes it worse, and it's resolved by accepting the discomfort of joining groups as a novice and the boredom of small interactions that lead to deeper connections. And humility.
posted by grokus at 9:45 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
My own experience is that worrying about loneliness makes it worse, and it's resolved by accepting the discomfort of joining groups as a novice and the boredom of small interactions that lead to deeper connections. And humility.
posted by grokus at 9:45 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
One lonely person is a problem. Two lonely people are a solution to that problem. A loneliness epidemic is an absurdity.
I am grateful beyond telling for my friends, and at age 45 I have a handful of friends with whom I have weekly tabletop game nights over Discord who I've loved since I was a teenager. I also have a large number of friends who, despite all the claims that it's impossible to make friends after college, I've met in the past couple years.
If all of my friends disappeared tomorrow I would be very sad and three months later I would have a comparably sized group of friends. Making and keeping friends is not hard but it is extremely labor-intensive and I think that's the biggest barrier a lot of Americans face when it comes to building friendships. They either lack the time and/or energy to put in that labor or they incorrectly believe that real friendships wouldn't be so much fucking work.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:54 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
I am grateful beyond telling for my friends, and at age 45 I have a handful of friends with whom I have weekly tabletop game nights over Discord who I've loved since I was a teenager. I also have a large number of friends who, despite all the claims that it's impossible to make friends after college, I've met in the past couple years.
If all of my friends disappeared tomorrow I would be very sad and three months later I would have a comparably sized group of friends. Making and keeping friends is not hard but it is extremely labor-intensive and I think that's the biggest barrier a lot of Americans face when it comes to building friendships. They either lack the time and/or energy to put in that labor or they incorrectly believe that real friendships wouldn't be so much fucking work.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:54 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
I get the point they're making about our changing standards for what friendship even means, but this still feels like an argument I cannot really get behind, if the author even believes it themselves, as least as it is framed in the title/header. Reading the article, I get the feeling the author thinks friendship is declining but that the way we have been framing the issue and investigating it is somewhere between inadequate and entirely wrongheaded.
There are tons of very obvious ways we are losing our social connections. Fewer people are part of religious congregations. (And say what you will about religion, but it does or at least can and often does serve a social purpose.) Fraternal societies like the Masons and Elks have seen a steep decline. Golf clubs have declined for all but the rich, but not to leave out the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum, bowling leagues have, too. Moving from walkable towns to suburban bedroom enclaves probably didn't help. Chain stores do not help. You probably do not know your baker or your butcher. People move across the country at higher rates than ever, leaving their families and childhood friends behind. (This is in addition to immigrants who do this as a matter of course.) People stay at jobs at shorter intervals than in past generations, meaning that you are unlikely to keep that crew of work friends for 30 years and have them send you off with a nice party and a gold watch. People have fewer kids, so they have fewer siblings to lean on, fewer kids to help support them as they age, and fewer grandkids to interact with keeping them engaged socially.
Yes, online connections help some. but as the author seems aware, we don't really know to what extent as it's not a one-to-one replacement.
I mean, I think I actually agree with the author and the stance they take in the body of the piece that: a) we probably underestimated loneliness in the past; b) changing definitions of what "loneliness" and "friendship" even mean make it hard to compare apples-to-apples with previous generations.
But there are so many obvious factors that seem to be making people more lonely than they can handle. And these factors seem to be accelerating. Are online friendships helping? Yeah, but that's not a one-to-one substitution. And increasing reliance on online connection may be hurting real-life connections. We just don't know.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:56 AM on November 25, 2024 [29 favorites]
There are tons of very obvious ways we are losing our social connections. Fewer people are part of religious congregations. (And say what you will about religion, but it does or at least can and often does serve a social purpose.) Fraternal societies like the Masons and Elks have seen a steep decline. Golf clubs have declined for all but the rich, but not to leave out the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum, bowling leagues have, too. Moving from walkable towns to suburban bedroom enclaves probably didn't help. Chain stores do not help. You probably do not know your baker or your butcher. People move across the country at higher rates than ever, leaving their families and childhood friends behind. (This is in addition to immigrants who do this as a matter of course.) People stay at jobs at shorter intervals than in past generations, meaning that you are unlikely to keep that crew of work friends for 30 years and have them send you off with a nice party and a gold watch. People have fewer kids, so they have fewer siblings to lean on, fewer kids to help support them as they age, and fewer grandkids to interact with keeping them engaged socially.
Yes, online connections help some. but as the author seems aware, we don't really know to what extent as it's not a one-to-one replacement.
I mean, I think I actually agree with the author and the stance they take in the body of the piece that: a) we probably underestimated loneliness in the past; b) changing definitions of what "loneliness" and "friendship" even mean make it hard to compare apples-to-apples with previous generations.
But there are so many obvious factors that seem to be making people more lonely than they can handle. And these factors seem to be accelerating. Are online friendships helping? Yeah, but that's not a one-to-one substitution. And increasing reliance on online connection may be hurting real-life connections. We just don't know.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:56 AM on November 25, 2024 [29 favorites]
Family means being able to say things that would get one killed on the spot if they said them to someone they had just met. The average murdered person dies usually not by the hands of a rank stranger but rather those of someone they know -- family and friends first and foremost. Statistics bear that out. In my experience misery has no love for company. Cruelty, on the other hand...
There is something to be said for solitude.
posted by y2karl at 10:06 AM on November 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
There is something to be said for solitude.
posted by y2karl at 10:06 AM on November 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Here's a plan for how we could end loneliness. Call it "Lonesome No More!"
Every American should be issued a new middle name made of the name of a random natural object paired with a random number between 1 and 20. Everyone with the same name would be cousins, and everyone with the same name and number would be siblings.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:08 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
Every American should be issued a new middle name made of the name of a random natural object paired with a random number between 1 and 20. Everyone with the same name would be cousins, and everyone with the same name and number would be siblings.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:08 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
… and tell us, what could you say if somebody asked you for help and they weren’t in your family?
posted by Countess Elena at 10:24 AM on November 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:24 AM on November 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
Seriously, though, we’ve already begun to see the loneliness epidemic used against progressive causes, and not just because it’s easier to radicalize young men who think they have no other options. Conservatives are increasingly open about complaining that young men can’t get wives, that parents and grandparents are cut off from their children because of woke. Which is to say that women and younger people don’t feel obligated to put up with nearly as much bullshit as they used to.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:28 AM on November 25, 2024 [33 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:28 AM on November 25, 2024 [33 favorites]
How many people are traveling this Thanksgiving 2024 to family/friends?
posted by robbyrobs at 10:31 AM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by robbyrobs at 10:31 AM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
… and tell us, what could you say if somebody asked you for help and they weren’t in your family?
Obviously I would say:
Obviously I would say:
WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A FLYING FUCK AT A ROLLING DOUGHNUT?posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:32 AM on November 25, 2024 [12 favorites]
WHY DON'T TAKE A FLYING FUCK AT THE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON?
This is something I think about a lot as a person who spends a lot of time online, who has a social circle of also-online people, and in particular am a person who enjoys giving my opinion in a helpful way online (see my entire Ask history basically).
Any time I answer a how do I make friends question on reddit I get downvoted into oblivion for asking back some flavor of what actions are you taking to make yourself a friend? You don't just, like, accidentally have friends as an adult. You have to seek friendships. You have to be a person who people want to be friends with. You have to actively create space for friendships to develop. It takes effort and it takes vulnerability, and my impression from the people who are so quick to say they're in an epidemic of loneliness is that they refuse to do those things. It's really not that much different than dating. You have to put in effort and it's going to feel weird and bad until it doesn't.
I'm not out here being a friendship genius. I'm deeply and severely introverted, and if I didn't constantly remind myself that it's better for my long term health to have friends in my life, it wouldn't surprise me if I accidentally never saw another person again just from comfortable inertia. My parents are friendless so I never had any adult friendships modeled for me as a child, and when I was 18 I moved 1000 miles away from where I grew up so even if I had had lasting friendships from childhood, I wouldn't have that social structure either. So I had to figure it out. And I very much believe that if I could figure out how to make friends, then other people can, too.
First step:
Do things you like. Leave the house if you can. Join groups for things that you like.
Second step:
Be genuine in your interactions and how you present yourself when you do those things you like doing.
Third step:
Keep your eyes open for people who seem neat. Maybe someone left a really funny comment in your discord group, say something funny back! Someone leaves a comment on an Instagram reel sharing a personal story you vibe with? Reply back @ them and share your story with them! Out at a concert and see someone with a cool sweater? Compliment them, ask where they got it! Take little steps to foster interactions with others. Take a class to learn a new hobby, and chat with everyone you meet! Etc!
Fourth step:
The most important step. Make it awkward. You simply must. When you meet someone you like, after you've made that initial connection, you have to ask them to be friends with you. It feels uncomfortable because you're being honest and vulnerable, but rejection is part of life and you can't have a deeper relationship without doing that. I've done this lots. Here's an example from (almost nine!!!! years ago!) right here on metafilter of me asking someone I met at a meetup to be my friend*. And it worked! Nine years later and we're really friends, and she's one of the most important people in my life. Have I said some flavor of this before and it hasn't worked out? Oh gosh yes, many times. But sometimes it does, and you have to try, or else you're never going to be friends with anyone.
(*I'm sure there are smoother, cooler, more natural ways to befriend someone, but if I knew how to do that I wouldn't be looking for friends. The cool, extroverted, smooth people aren't likely to be in my demo anyway. Weird nerdy dorks for me, please.)
Anyway, if everyone's so lonely and miserable then the natural answer to that is then go be miserable together, at least you won't be lonely anymore, right? But miserable people don't want more miserable people around them. They want whatever the platonic equivalent of a manic pixie dream girl is to come magically lift them out of their misery and introduce them to their thriving network of beautiful and social people, ready made. But that doesn't happen. You have to work on yourself first, be a person who can be a friend, and then you have to reach out to others. But wow do people get big mad when you try and tell them that.
posted by phunniemee at 11:01 AM on November 25, 2024 [66 favorites]
Any time I answer a how do I make friends question on reddit I get downvoted into oblivion for asking back some flavor of what actions are you taking to make yourself a friend? You don't just, like, accidentally have friends as an adult. You have to seek friendships. You have to be a person who people want to be friends with. You have to actively create space for friendships to develop. It takes effort and it takes vulnerability, and my impression from the people who are so quick to say they're in an epidemic of loneliness is that they refuse to do those things. It's really not that much different than dating. You have to put in effort and it's going to feel weird and bad until it doesn't.
I'm not out here being a friendship genius. I'm deeply and severely introverted, and if I didn't constantly remind myself that it's better for my long term health to have friends in my life, it wouldn't surprise me if I accidentally never saw another person again just from comfortable inertia. My parents are friendless so I never had any adult friendships modeled for me as a child, and when I was 18 I moved 1000 miles away from where I grew up so even if I had had lasting friendships from childhood, I wouldn't have that social structure either. So I had to figure it out. And I very much believe that if I could figure out how to make friends, then other people can, too.
First step:
Do things you like. Leave the house if you can. Join groups for things that you like.
Second step:
Be genuine in your interactions and how you present yourself when you do those things you like doing.
Third step:
Keep your eyes open for people who seem neat. Maybe someone left a really funny comment in your discord group, say something funny back! Someone leaves a comment on an Instagram reel sharing a personal story you vibe with? Reply back @ them and share your story with them! Out at a concert and see someone with a cool sweater? Compliment them, ask where they got it! Take little steps to foster interactions with others. Take a class to learn a new hobby, and chat with everyone you meet! Etc!
Fourth step:
The most important step. Make it awkward. You simply must. When you meet someone you like, after you've made that initial connection, you have to ask them to be friends with you. It feels uncomfortable because you're being honest and vulnerable, but rejection is part of life and you can't have a deeper relationship without doing that. I've done this lots. Here's an example from (almost nine!!!! years ago!) right here on metafilter of me asking someone I met at a meetup to be my friend*. And it worked! Nine years later and we're really friends, and she's one of the most important people in my life. Have I said some flavor of this before and it hasn't worked out? Oh gosh yes, many times. But sometimes it does, and you have to try, or else you're never going to be friends with anyone.
(*I'm sure there are smoother, cooler, more natural ways to befriend someone, but if I knew how to do that I wouldn't be looking for friends. The cool, extroverted, smooth people aren't likely to be in my demo anyway. Weird nerdy dorks for me, please.)
Anyway, if everyone's so lonely and miserable then the natural answer to that is then go be miserable together, at least you won't be lonely anymore, right? But miserable people don't want more miserable people around them. They want whatever the platonic equivalent of a manic pixie dream girl is to come magically lift them out of their misery and introduce them to their thriving network of beautiful and social people, ready made. But that doesn't happen. You have to work on yourself first, be a person who can be a friend, and then you have to reach out to others. But wow do people get big mad when you try and tell them that.
posted by phunniemee at 11:01 AM on November 25, 2024 [66 favorites]
I was not aware of this magazine, but I'll just point out that its "About" section includes this: "Open to all perspectives. Our editorial perspective is shaped by the philosophy of Effective Altruism, but not limited to it." I'm pretty confident that Claude S. Fischer is not an Effective Altruist, but this movement has been discussed before on the blue, and it's not a movement that many of us would expect good solutions to loneliness from (I think, anyway, based on how previous discussion went).
posted by demonic winged headgear at 11:07 AM on November 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
posted by demonic winged headgear at 11:07 AM on November 25, 2024 [15 favorites]
A minor (or major?) correction is needed:
Such friendship, which persists out of mutual regard and not because of social constraints or pragmatic necessity, is a modern development for ordinary, particularly middle-class people. Classical, biblical, and medieval friendships are described this way, but only among elites.
Classical, biblical, and medieval sources generally talk only about elites. Assuming X doesn't happen among the labouring classes just because they aren't written about by elite sources is ridiculous. For one, labouring class people moved a lot more in the medieval period than most people realize - especially poorer people who didn't have land to tie them down. They could have been meeting new people all the time.
I also think that it's dumb to say that a friend someone "whom we need not be entwined in any other way — not as relative, client, neighbor, fellow platoon member, whatever." For one, I doubt that any of those elite friendships that were written about didn't have similar ties. But most of our modern friendships have additional ties: you are friends with people you have gone to school with, live near, work with, people who share an activity or social group. I don't have any friends who I just met on the street by accident, though I do have friends I have met at a playground. Of course, I talked to them precisely because their child is the same age as mine (which is a kind of tie - we are comrades in the war of adult against toddler).
posted by jb at 11:11 AM on November 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
Such friendship, which persists out of mutual regard and not because of social constraints or pragmatic necessity, is a modern development for ordinary, particularly middle-class people. Classical, biblical, and medieval friendships are described this way, but only among elites.
Classical, biblical, and medieval sources generally talk only about elites. Assuming X doesn't happen among the labouring classes just because they aren't written about by elite sources is ridiculous. For one, labouring class people moved a lot more in the medieval period than most people realize - especially poorer people who didn't have land to tie them down. They could have been meeting new people all the time.
I also think that it's dumb to say that a friend someone "whom we need not be entwined in any other way — not as relative, client, neighbor, fellow platoon member, whatever." For one, I doubt that any of those elite friendships that were written about didn't have similar ties. But most of our modern friendships have additional ties: you are friends with people you have gone to school with, live near, work with, people who share an activity or social group. I don't have any friends who I just met on the street by accident, though I do have friends I have met at a playground. Of course, I talked to them precisely because their child is the same age as mine (which is a kind of tie - we are comrades in the war of adult against toddler).
posted by jb at 11:11 AM on November 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
it feels less of a fucking loneliness epidemic, and more of a work-two-jobs-to-pay-for-these-kids epidemic
friends eat dinner together on a weekly basis
i am constantly with family and we have the group text with my family abroad
personally, I am alienated from life by jobs, not by technology. I am lonely at work, and everything costs more, and work is more hours = less time with friends and zero vacations.
brb i am going to take a break from ignoring this zoom call and hug someone in the other room
posted by eustatic at 11:12 AM on November 25, 2024 [26 favorites]
friends eat dinner together on a weekly basis
i am constantly with family and we have the group text with my family abroad
personally, I am alienated from life by jobs, not by technology. I am lonely at work, and everything costs more, and work is more hours = less time with friends and zero vacations.
brb i am going to take a break from ignoring this zoom call and hug someone in the other room
posted by eustatic at 11:12 AM on November 25, 2024 [26 favorites]
I used to have a ton of friends and now I have few, and have had a LOT of trouble making new friends using the tried-and-true "volunteer and do stuff" method. There are several issues I've identified:
1. I'm old. A LOT of volunteers at the places I volunteer are in their twenties. It's not that I literally cannot be friends with someone in their twenties, but our lifestyles and life experiences are really quite different. I'd say I have some friendly acquaintances in their twenties.
2. Rising rents mean that a lot of the volunteer projects that were natural friend-creators when I was younger are gone.
3. I took a really different life path from most people who are otherwise similar to me, and this has led to greater and greater divergences. My closest friends in my twenties and thirties were people who were big readers and fairly serious about, like, serious books. Those people were already mostly from a professional class background different from mine, but they all went to graduate school and have moved on to very different lives than mine. As a result, I don't encounter them in the wild very often and when I do our lives have diverged dramatically. It's easy to say that social class doesn't matter in friendships, or shouldn't matter, but it really does. I was in a union for a long time and was really the weird little guy there too - I made some casual friends but none that really lasted, and it was because we struggled to find things deeply in common.
I do have friendly acquaintances from volunteer work - people I like, people who I would gladly help and who would gladly help me, but we seem to run onto rocks of deep difference when we talk about our beliefs and ideas.
Mainly, I like to read a lot and watch nerd/snob movies. I don't watch or enjoy much TV on my own, although I'm happy to watch TV if friends are into it. My deepest friendships have been with people who also like to read a lot and watch nerd/snob movies, and then we talk about what we think, what that says about what we believe about the world, etc. I'm not saying that these are profound conversations where every word is a pearl - I'm sure a real scholar would laugh themselves sick - but it is a matter of interest.
This really sounds like I'm saying "I'm much smarter than others and that's why it's hard to make friends", but that isn't it at all - if I were some kind of gold-plated genius it would have become apparent by now. It's much more that life has taken me away from the pool of people who are similar to me and there's a limit to how much I can change myself and my approach to find new people.
It may well be that I'm just trapped in some social eddy and there's tons of nerd/snob lower middle class people out there gathering to chat about Leibniz and one day I'll stumble upon the best way to meet them and my friendship needs will be met.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on November 25, 2024 [41 favorites]
1. I'm old. A LOT of volunteers at the places I volunteer are in their twenties. It's not that I literally cannot be friends with someone in their twenties, but our lifestyles and life experiences are really quite different. I'd say I have some friendly acquaintances in their twenties.
2. Rising rents mean that a lot of the volunteer projects that were natural friend-creators when I was younger are gone.
3. I took a really different life path from most people who are otherwise similar to me, and this has led to greater and greater divergences. My closest friends in my twenties and thirties were people who were big readers and fairly serious about, like, serious books. Those people were already mostly from a professional class background different from mine, but they all went to graduate school and have moved on to very different lives than mine. As a result, I don't encounter them in the wild very often and when I do our lives have diverged dramatically. It's easy to say that social class doesn't matter in friendships, or shouldn't matter, but it really does. I was in a union for a long time and was really the weird little guy there too - I made some casual friends but none that really lasted, and it was because we struggled to find things deeply in common.
I do have friendly acquaintances from volunteer work - people I like, people who I would gladly help and who would gladly help me, but we seem to run onto rocks of deep difference when we talk about our beliefs and ideas.
Mainly, I like to read a lot and watch nerd/snob movies. I don't watch or enjoy much TV on my own, although I'm happy to watch TV if friends are into it. My deepest friendships have been with people who also like to read a lot and watch nerd/snob movies, and then we talk about what we think, what that says about what we believe about the world, etc. I'm not saying that these are profound conversations where every word is a pearl - I'm sure a real scholar would laugh themselves sick - but it is a matter of interest.
This really sounds like I'm saying "I'm much smarter than others and that's why it's hard to make friends", but that isn't it at all - if I were some kind of gold-plated genius it would have become apparent by now. It's much more that life has taken me away from the pool of people who are similar to me and there's a limit to how much I can change myself and my approach to find new people.
It may well be that I'm just trapped in some social eddy and there's tons of nerd/snob lower middle class people out there gathering to chat about Leibniz and one day I'll stumble upon the best way to meet them and my friendship needs will be met.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on November 25, 2024 [41 favorites]
Lonely individuals tend to think and talk in an unusual way, study finds
[grain, salt, "study finds" &c]
posted by chavenet at 11:29 AM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
[grain, salt, "study finds" &c]
posted by chavenet at 11:29 AM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
Lonely individuals tend to think and talk in an unusual way, study finds
So you're telling me autistic folks are fucked.
Cool cool cool.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on November 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
So you're telling me autistic folks are fucked.
Cool cool cool.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on November 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
I think the thing you have to do to develop a friendship is have exposure to the person on a regular basis for quite some time. It needs to build. Doing plays, for example, means you see the same group of people in a temporary mini-family for about three months. Taking a class on a regular basis, book clubs, whatever you do frequently, really helps. "Cold contacts" really never worked for me because you need a reason to see the person and make the effort. None of those girls I've given numbers to at karaoke have called, and why would they, because then it's just weird once you're out of the bar and it's a weeknight.
Once you've "built" something, then you can have less contact and maybe/hopefully the friendship will remain. Much as I hated having to cave in and do Facebook--almost all theater shows are run off Facebook these days and that's where you find the audition notices--it does help to keep you in contact with people on a "here's what shows they're in, here's party invites" sort of way.
So, step 1: have a situation in which the friendship can bake, step 2: have some way to connect with them at least loosely once the baking situation ends.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:35 AM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Once you've "built" something, then you can have less contact and maybe/hopefully the friendship will remain. Much as I hated having to cave in and do Facebook--almost all theater shows are run off Facebook these days and that's where you find the audition notices--it does help to keep you in contact with people on a "here's what shows they're in, here's party invites" sort of way.
So, step 1: have a situation in which the friendship can bake, step 2: have some way to connect with them at least loosely once the baking situation ends.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:35 AM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
So you're telling me autistic folks are fucked.
Tell me you've never seen a LARP club without saying you've never seen a LARP club.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:37 AM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
Tell me you've never seen a LARP club without saying you've never seen a LARP club.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:37 AM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
I'm old. A LOT of volunteers at the places I volunteer are in their twenties.
It's funny you say that, because except for political organizing, I feel like any extracurricular activity that I engage in is all empty nesters and retirees, because they have the time and disposable income for it. Between DSA and watercolor classes, I interact with the entire age spectrum, with elder millennials being least represented.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:38 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
It's funny you say that, because except for political organizing, I feel like any extracurricular activity that I engage in is all empty nesters and retirees, because they have the time and disposable income for it. Between DSA and watercolor classes, I interact with the entire age spectrum, with elder millennials being least represented.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:38 AM on November 25, 2024 [13 favorites]
Tell me you've never seen a LARP club without saying you've never seen a LARP club.
Since I've already made one Vonnegut reference here, I'll remind you that he also has a book called Fates Worse Than Death.
(Kidding... mostly.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:39 AM on November 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
Since I've already made one Vonnegut reference here, I'll remind you that he also has a book called Fates Worse Than Death.
(Kidding... mostly.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:39 AM on November 25, 2024 [4 favorites]
Do things you like. Leave the house if you can. Join groups for things that you like.
tfw you fail the process on the very first step
posted by mittens at 11:44 AM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
tfw you fail the process on the very first step
posted by mittens at 11:44 AM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
“Happiness is such hard work, and it gets harder every day
And it can kill you, but no one wants to be that tacky about it”
— The Dismemberment Plan, “Gyroscope”
posted by Going To Maine at 12:10 PM on November 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
And it can kill you, but no one wants to be that tacky about it”
— The Dismemberment Plan, “Gyroscope”
posted by Going To Maine at 12:10 PM on November 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Frowner, I feel you. A lot of the budding friendships I've had over the past however-long I've ended up intentionally dropping, because yeah these are nice people and we can have pleasant conversations but we're just not on the same wavelength, to the extent that being friends with them felt like going through the motions rather than the real thing. Which made for both a tedious and lonely experience for me, and made me feel kind of dishonest towards them.
When you do click with someone, that's a whole different experience. It doesn't feel as much like work to keep a relationship like that up.
But in terms of having people to help you in a crisis, or just check in from time to time and make sure you're still alive - it would be pretty helpful if I could work up the energy and enthusiasm to also develop a community with people I don't truly click with. It's the combination of exhaustion and the feeling of dishonesty that makes it really hard.
posted by trig at 12:11 PM on November 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
When you do click with someone, that's a whole different experience. It doesn't feel as much like work to keep a relationship like that up.
But in terms of having people to help you in a crisis, or just check in from time to time and make sure you're still alive - it would be pretty helpful if I could work up the energy and enthusiasm to also develop a community with people I don't truly click with. It's the combination of exhaustion and the feeling of dishonesty that makes it really hard.
posted by trig at 12:11 PM on November 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
One of the reasons I am so inclined to move overseas (beyond [gestures around at the US in 2024 and you know what I mean here]) is the lower bar for homogeneity that I experience travelling. For one, the bar for being acceptably social is so much lower due to the language barrier alone. In the US, I make my awkward attempts at small talk and people react as though a painfully weird autisitic person just mumbled rotely at them (because one did).
In Romania, the reaction I get for saying a simple Bună dimineaţa (good morning) is more like, "Awwwwww, look at him making an effort! Does he need any help? We should say hi." And when I open my mouth here in the US and stuff like "No seriously: defund the police" comes out, people visibly recoil. But in Romania, the reaction I get is more like, "Listen to this curious little American go off!" Nobody expects me to fit in, so any effort I make is magnified. nobody expects me to fit in, so any weird shit I say is just part of my foreign charm.
I would like to work with this overall lower bar.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:24 PM on November 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
In Romania, the reaction I get for saying a simple Bună dimineaţa (good morning) is more like, "Awwwwww, look at him making an effort! Does he need any help? We should say hi." And when I open my mouth here in the US and stuff like "No seriously: defund the police" comes out, people visibly recoil. But in Romania, the reaction I get is more like, "Listen to this curious little American go off!" Nobody expects me to fit in, so any effort I make is magnified. nobody expects me to fit in, so any weird shit I say is just part of my foreign charm.
I would like to work with this overall lower bar.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:24 PM on November 25, 2024 [18 favorites]
If it's a myth, I would expect the article to rebut claims like this:
> A 2021 US census found that the average American spent 2 hours 45 minutes with their friends per week. A decade before that it was 6.5.
I don't think it can rebut that, because that's true. In other words, if you look at the numbers, they bear out the claim that loneliness is increasing.
posted by julianeon at 12:35 PM on November 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
> A 2021 US census found that the average American spent 2 hours 45 minutes with their friends per week. A decade before that it was 6.5.
I don't think it can rebut that, because that's true. In other words, if you look at the numbers, they bear out the claim that loneliness is increasing.
posted by julianeon at 12:35 PM on November 25, 2024 [9 favorites]
I think there is a big divide between the framing of the title/heading and the content of the piece.
The author does not argue that there isn't an epidemic of loneliness per se, and even lists data indicating things may be getting harder, and suggests reasons why this may be so. What they are arguing is that data is mixed/contradictory and the fluidity/evolution of our definition of the terms "loneliness" and "friendship" makes a lot of our assumptions we have worked from in trying to define this so far to be unhelpful or even to muddle the study we should be doing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:51 PM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
The author does not argue that there isn't an epidemic of loneliness per se, and even lists data indicating things may be getting harder, and suggests reasons why this may be so. What they are arguing is that data is mixed/contradictory and the fluidity/evolution of our definition of the terms "loneliness" and "friendship" makes a lot of our assumptions we have worked from in trying to define this so far to be unhelpful or even to muddle the study we should be doing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:51 PM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
The author does not argue that there isn't an epidemic of loneliness per se
Then maybe they shouldn't have titled it "The Myth Of The Loneliness Epidemic." I would subtitle it "An Object Lesson In The Pox Of Clickbait-Oriented-Titling."
Anyway, I do All The Things like join groups and get out of the house and talk to people on the street, and I've made friends, but the fact of the matter is that physical proximity coupled with a shared context (work, school, church, being in a band) makes friendship a lot easier to form and maintain. Bonus points if there have been extended periods of shared, intense / novel experience.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:12 PM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Then maybe they shouldn't have titled it "The Myth Of The Loneliness Epidemic." I would subtitle it "An Object Lesson In The Pox Of Clickbait-Oriented-Titling."
Anyway, I do All The Things like join groups and get out of the house and talk to people on the street, and I've made friends, but the fact of the matter is that physical proximity coupled with a shared context (work, school, church, being in a band) makes friendship a lot easier to form and maintain. Bonus points if there have been extended periods of shared, intense / novel experience.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:12 PM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
Then maybe they shouldn't have titled it
They almost certainly did not title it themselves. It is an open secret that a sizable chunk of magazine pieces like this one are titled by the editors, not the writers themselves. When there is a split between the tone of the content and the impression given by the title, that's a pretty glaring indicator.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:21 PM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
They almost certainly did not title it themselves. It is an open secret that a sizable chunk of magazine pieces like this one are titled by the editors, not the writers themselves. When there is a split between the tone of the content and the impression given by the title, that's a pretty glaring indicator.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:21 PM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
For me I feel like there's a whole "bring you food when you're sick" thing here. Like, do you have friends/neighbors/etc who you take food to when they are sick and is this reciprocal? I grew up in a neighborhood where it was quite common for the neighbors to pick up groceries/bring dinner/take care of the kids for a while, etc, if someone was sick or grieving or had had some kind of accident (or even just had a reasonably stressful couple of weeks). Everybody sort of looked in on everyone else, even if they weren't always particularly close friends otherwise.
I'm pleased to tell you that I live in such a community/have such a community of friends in my life at present (like, I don't think any of us pay for cat sitters, for example--though we'll buy dinner/drinks, etc for each other afterward) and I don't find it intrusive. But I've told at least one of my younger siblings about this and they've been perplexed and borderline horrified because that sort of obligation, to them, violates their boundaries. Tomayto. Tomahto, I guess.
posted by thivaia at 2:22 PM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
I'm pleased to tell you that I live in such a community/have such a community of friends in my life at present (like, I don't think any of us pay for cat sitters, for example--though we'll buy dinner/drinks, etc for each other afterward) and I don't find it intrusive. But I've told at least one of my younger siblings about this and they've been perplexed and borderline horrified because that sort of obligation, to them, violates their boundaries. Tomayto. Tomahto, I guess.
posted by thivaia at 2:22 PM on November 25, 2024 [6 favorites]
I will say that grumpybearbride and I found ourselves, for a variety of reasons, without Thanksgiving plans this year, and after a chance meeting with a neighbor and his sweet doggo, we are now going to their house and bringing pie.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:27 PM on November 25, 2024 [11 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:27 PM on November 25, 2024 [11 favorites]
What kind of pie? The people need to know.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2024 [8 favorites]
They want whatever the platonic equivalent of a manic pixie dream girl is to come magically lift them out of their misery and introduce them to their thriving network of beautiful and social people, ready made. But that doesn't happen.
It actually does happen! I am living proof, although my manic pixie dream boy is not platonic. But even when it does happen it's a trap, because it's still just really hard to find the time and energy to be and have a friend, and then you're letting down nice fabulous people instead of just yourself!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:42 PM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
It actually does happen! I am living proof, although my manic pixie dream boy is not platonic. But even when it does happen it's a trap, because it's still just really hard to find the time and energy to be and have a friend, and then you're letting down nice fabulous people instead of just yourself!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:42 PM on November 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
Cherry pie! With my classic egg-washed latticework crust, sprinkled with lavender sugar.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:57 PM on November 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:57 PM on November 25, 2024 [10 favorites]
My tribe as we called it are long gone.My chums, my buddies. Mostly in their 40s, because of aids. I'm quite at ease with solitude though as I'm in my seventh decade and have oft times experienced alone time. Now I have acquaintances and neighbors. Very good neighbors. We watch out for each other, especially in the long winter months...So that is a bit of help. But I realize there will never again be that magical time, as in youth, when you are part of a tribe or gang. Stephen King depicts this marvelously in his novels... adolescents. Especially male adolescents.
posted by Czjewel at 3:45 PM on November 25, 2024 [12 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 3:45 PM on November 25, 2024 [12 favorites]
One lonely person is a problem. Two lonely people are a solution to that problem. A loneliness epidemic is an absurdity.
why don’t all the lonely people just, pair up?
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 3:49 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
why don’t all the lonely people just, pair up?
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 3:49 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
… and tell us, what could you say if somebody asked you for help and they weren’t in your family?
I'd just call Ten Cold Hot Dogs
... wait who?
posted by sammyo at 3:51 PM on November 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'd just call Ten Cold Hot Dogs
... wait who?
posted by sammyo at 3:51 PM on November 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
... anybody have his/her/it's cell #? ("it", as. these days, really, how do we know anyone isn't a perl script?)
posted by sammyo at 3:53 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 3:53 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
how do we know anyone isn't a perl script?
I know I am.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:39 PM on November 25, 2024
I know I am.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:39 PM on November 25, 2024
loneliness is a byproduct of the petite bourgeoisie
posted by clavdivs at 5:01 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 5:01 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
loneliness is a byproduct of the petite bourgeoisie
oh my god Karen, you can be friends with people even if they're short
posted by phunniemee at 5:07 PM on November 25, 2024 [47 favorites]
oh my god Karen, you can be friends with people even if they're short
posted by phunniemee at 5:07 PM on November 25, 2024 [47 favorites]
Seems to me that loneliness can be a serious and real social concern, and also not a new one or an increasingly severe one. The article is making that second point - it's not new, it's not getting worse - which needn't detract from acknowledging that a heck of a lot of people are lonely and that it's been like that for a long time.
The relevance is, if we think They or We oughta do something about that, we'd likely identify different causes and solutions depending on whether we think we're dealing with a novel and worsening issue or not.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:30 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
The relevance is, if we think They or We oughta do something about that, we'd likely identify different causes and solutions depending on whether we think we're dealing with a novel and worsening issue or not.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:30 PM on November 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
I'm pleased to tell you that I live in such a community/have such a community of friends in my life at present (like, I don't think any of us pay for cat sitters, for example--though we'll buy dinner/drinks, etc for each other afterward) and I don't find it intrusive.
Count your blessings, because I have never once lived in a neighborhood like this. Yeah I get it, I'm probably one of the people this post is targeting. I have moved very frequently for my job (gotta stay employed somehow), am too exhausted after working long hours to put in the work to get to know people, and am quite frankly am highly socially awkward and just more comfortable doing my own thing. I also am currently living in a non-US country where people only form friendships as kids - making friends as an adult is considered weird.
I've just kind of accepted it, I was always the weird outcast kid growing up so kind of used to having a life with a lot of solitude, although a small part of me does yearn the sense of community sometimes. I worry more about my parents though - they likewise don't have much of a community in their town anymore but are approaching their 80s.
I don't know if it's getting worse societally or not, I can only speak for my own personal experience. But it is definitely an issue.
posted by photo guy at 9:57 PM on November 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
Count your blessings, because I have never once lived in a neighborhood like this. Yeah I get it, I'm probably one of the people this post is targeting. I have moved very frequently for my job (gotta stay employed somehow), am too exhausted after working long hours to put in the work to get to know people, and am quite frankly am highly socially awkward and just more comfortable doing my own thing. I also am currently living in a non-US country where people only form friendships as kids - making friends as an adult is considered weird.
I've just kind of accepted it, I was always the weird outcast kid growing up so kind of used to having a life with a lot of solitude, although a small part of me does yearn the sense of community sometimes. I worry more about my parents though - they likewise don't have much of a community in their town anymore but are approaching their 80s.
I don't know if it's getting worse societally or not, I can only speak for my own personal experience. But it is definitely an issue.
posted by photo guy at 9:57 PM on November 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
sammyo darling, don’t be silly: you know you can MeMail any day of the ding dong week 😘
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 12:17 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 12:17 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
Nobody expects me to fit in, so any effort I make is magnified. nobody expects me to fit in, so any weird shit I say is just part of my foreign charm.
Also seconding everything DirtyOldTown said above, admittedly this has been a huge plus of being a foreigner and I think is a big part of the draw of why I don't live in the US (and why I just accepted a new contract that will keep me out of the US for at least another few years). I don't exactly have locals bursting with curiosity to meet an American, but it is assumed I won't fit in and everyone is okay with that. In the US I am just the socially awkward weirdo who has never integrated well and looked at strangely, here nobody seems to care.
posted by photo guy at 1:00 AM on November 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
Also seconding everything DirtyOldTown said above, admittedly this has been a huge plus of being a foreigner and I think is a big part of the draw of why I don't live in the US (and why I just accepted a new contract that will keep me out of the US for at least another few years). I don't exactly have locals bursting with curiosity to meet an American, but it is assumed I won't fit in and everyone is okay with that. In the US I am just the socially awkward weirdo who has never integrated well and looked at strangely, here nobody seems to care.
posted by photo guy at 1:00 AM on November 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
lol so why were they censusing the amount of time Americans were spending with their buddies in 2021 and comparing it to anything? 2021? In 2020 and 2021 I played D&D and watched movies and livestreams with my friends on Zoom and saw them in person basically not at all. I'm in my 40s and so were they, except for their kids who were also in the D&D group sometimes.
(I'm also disabled and was somewhat high risk until vaccinated in Summer 2021, and had to stay inside. When I finally did catch COVID a few months ago, I also almost immediately developed several new severe food allergies as an autoimmune complication. So, you know, avoiding it was probably a good idea! But please don't derail the thread by debating this with me -- that's not my intention here. Just riffing on why a lot of people might not have seen their friends much for at least some of 2021.)
posted by verbminx at 1:11 AM on November 26, 2024 [9 favorites]
(I'm also disabled and was somewhat high risk until vaccinated in Summer 2021, and had to stay inside. When I finally did catch COVID a few months ago, I also almost immediately developed several new severe food allergies as an autoimmune complication. So, you know, avoiding it was probably a good idea! But please don't derail the thread by debating this with me -- that's not my intention here. Just riffing on why a lot of people might not have seen their friends much for at least some of 2021.)
posted by verbminx at 1:11 AM on November 26, 2024 [9 favorites]
This is very solid evidence the loneliness epidemic is a myth. But the author, and posters here, don’t want to believe that in spite of the evidence.
I am struck by how the smartphone is always blamed. I am quite convinced that all of our anxieties about smartphones are bunk. We’ve made more or less the same arguments about novels, TV shows, movies, games, etc. I’m also always struck by how the majority of negative trends blamed on the smart phone start several years to a decade before the smart phone existed.
I’m also struck by how several examples of very real and close friendships, that happen to be mostly in virtual space (gaming, the tabletop RPG sessions mentioned above) are basically ruled out as “real” friends by the definitions being used to define loneliness.
So I am going with the evidence. Even though I am profoundly isolated, there is no loneliness epidemic. There were probably just as many lonely people like me (percentage-wise) in 1879 as there are now.
posted by teece303 at 6:33 AM on November 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
I am struck by how the smartphone is always blamed. I am quite convinced that all of our anxieties about smartphones are bunk. We’ve made more or less the same arguments about novels, TV shows, movies, games, etc. I’m also always struck by how the majority of negative trends blamed on the smart phone start several years to a decade before the smart phone existed.
I’m also struck by how several examples of very real and close friendships, that happen to be mostly in virtual space (gaming, the tabletop RPG sessions mentioned above) are basically ruled out as “real” friends by the definitions being used to define loneliness.
So I am going with the evidence. Even though I am profoundly isolated, there is no loneliness epidemic. There were probably just as many lonely people like me (percentage-wise) in 1879 as there are now.
posted by teece303 at 6:33 AM on November 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
sammyo darling, don’t be silly: you know you can MeMail any day of the ding dong week 😘
Is the ding dong week one of those floating holidays
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:35 AM on November 26, 2024 [4 favorites]
Is the ding dong week one of those floating holidays
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:35 AM on November 26, 2024 [4 favorites]
Another observation: my best friend growing up was my cousin.
You’ll note I was considered mostly friendless for my entire pre-smartphone youth by the definitions being used here.
I was very active and happy with my social connections then, though.
posted by teece303 at 6:37 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
You’ll note I was considered mostly friendless for my entire pre-smartphone youth by the definitions being used here.
I was very active and happy with my social connections then, though.
posted by teece303 at 6:37 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
It's hard to develop any meaningful relationships with people when we're all so bland.
I sometimes work with a team from the west coast and they have the rather annoying habit of running a teambuilding exercise at the start of every meeting where everyone shares something unique about themselves. And everyone's pretty bland. Someone will be really into travel and someone else lives for going to fancy restaurants and there will inevitably be that guy who is fanatical about his college's sports team. When it comes to be my turn, I'm always faced with the dilemma of either being sincere and sharing something I don't feel comfortable sharing with co-workers or curating myself to be bland. I'd like to think that everyone else is facing the same dilemma and also choosing to be bland, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:55 AM on November 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
I sometimes work with a team from the west coast and they have the rather annoying habit of running a teambuilding exercise at the start of every meeting where everyone shares something unique about themselves. And everyone's pretty bland. Someone will be really into travel and someone else lives for going to fancy restaurants and there will inevitably be that guy who is fanatical about his college's sports team. When it comes to be my turn, I'm always faced with the dilemma of either being sincere and sharing something I don't feel comfortable sharing with co-workers or curating myself to be bland. I'd like to think that everyone else is facing the same dilemma and also choosing to be bland, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:55 AM on November 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
I am quite convinced that all of our anxieties about smartphones are bunk. We’ve made more or less the same arguments about novels, TV shows, movies, games, etc.
Respectfully disagree. Novels, TV shows, movies and games certainly shape culture and people's perception of the world, but none of them try to serve as the replacement for human interaction that you see with social media. And I would absolutely argue that interacting with the world through social media is a terrible substitute for the real thing (something I could go on at length about, but I'm not going to derail this thread).
posted by photo guy at 8:15 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
Respectfully disagree. Novels, TV shows, movies and games certainly shape culture and people's perception of the world, but none of them try to serve as the replacement for human interaction that you see with social media. And I would absolutely argue that interacting with the world through social media is a terrible substitute for the real thing (something I could go on at length about, but I'm not going to derail this thread).
posted by photo guy at 8:15 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
It is true that anxieties about novels and TV in particular have been the same old "they take you away from interacting with the real world" line - novels were considered very dodgy in general, and especially for women and servants. I think it's fair to discount some of the anxiety around smartphones, or maybe just to be more worried about novels.
I do think that it's obvious that smartphones are different in critical ways - they centralize many functions into one little object, apps and websites are optimized to be all dopamine-y, it is easy to carry them everywhere and when you have them with you, you have a choice of ten billion different things to do/look at. That's why we see people walking down the street staring into their phones and yet very rarely see people walking down the street reading a book.
There's also a different cultural function - it's true that books can be trendy, but they're trendy to a much smaller section of the public and each book is a relatively small expense. But having the very latest and best smartphone is a way of showing status. Even if I make a point of toting around whatever the most talked about novel is, it doesn't work quite the same way as toting around a very recent $600 phone.
All this means that phones are more central and more significant and it also means that each of us has a different experience of the phone. If we both watch a TV show, we've both seen the same show - if we both have the same cell phone, there's a certain amount to talk about, but we don't use our phones the same way.
But really, I think it's the dopamine hits of the internet/phones that are decisive. I'm a chronic reader and many are the hours I spent in youth unable to tear myself away from a particularly good book - but man, that's nothing on being unable to tear myself away from the internet.
posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
I do think that it's obvious that smartphones are different in critical ways - they centralize many functions into one little object, apps and websites are optimized to be all dopamine-y, it is easy to carry them everywhere and when you have them with you, you have a choice of ten billion different things to do/look at. That's why we see people walking down the street staring into their phones and yet very rarely see people walking down the street reading a book.
There's also a different cultural function - it's true that books can be trendy, but they're trendy to a much smaller section of the public and each book is a relatively small expense. But having the very latest and best smartphone is a way of showing status. Even if I make a point of toting around whatever the most talked about novel is, it doesn't work quite the same way as toting around a very recent $600 phone.
All this means that phones are more central and more significant and it also means that each of us has a different experience of the phone. If we both watch a TV show, we've both seen the same show - if we both have the same cell phone, there's a certain amount to talk about, but we don't use our phones the same way.
But really, I think it's the dopamine hits of the internet/phones that are decisive. I'm a chronic reader and many are the hours I spent in youth unable to tear myself away from a particularly good book - but man, that's nothing on being unable to tear myself away from the internet.
posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
This is very solid evidence the loneliness epidemic is a myth. But the author, and posters here, don’t want to believe that in spite of the evidence.
It's because we're used to talking about sudden changes and since there's nothing more sudden than a disease that wipes you out over a brief period, we pick up this language. Maybe it makes more sense to talk about loneliness as endemic, a condition that is being continually reinforced over time, and whose dreary continuance feels like it should be either caused by, or cured by, technological change, but those changes typically just throw up a series of contrasts between what we're able to do, and what we wish we were able to do.
posted by mittens at 8:55 AM on November 26, 2024 [6 favorites]
It's because we're used to talking about sudden changes and since there's nothing more sudden than a disease that wipes you out over a brief period, we pick up this language. Maybe it makes more sense to talk about loneliness as endemic, a condition that is being continually reinforced over time, and whose dreary continuance feels like it should be either caused by, or cured by, technological change, but those changes typically just throw up a series of contrasts between what we're able to do, and what we wish we were able to do.
posted by mittens at 8:55 AM on November 26, 2024 [6 favorites]
"I feel like that's my loneliness issue: that I can't have that level of SUPER closeness with anyone in this lifetime because nobody wants to with me"
This really sucks, but I bet it's just a matter of not meeting that person, yet - IMO (trying not to overstep here) I've read your comments, they are astute, kind and thoughtful. That means someone is there, it just sucks to have to depend on kismet to get to them.
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:59 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
This really sucks, but I bet it's just a matter of not meeting that person, yet - IMO (trying not to overstep here) I've read your comments, they are astute, kind and thoughtful. That means someone is there, it just sucks to have to depend on kismet to get to them.
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:59 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
Is the ding dong week one of those floating holidays
Wouldn't the bells sink, though?
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:15 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't the bells sink, though?
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:15 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
I'd like to think that everyone else is facing the same dilemma and also choosing to be bland, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
You really have to pick your "safe" personality trait to highlight for work. I myself am "travel guy" although I have also eventually been outed as "collects Blu-Rays" guy. The former is easier, as even the most boring people can manage some interest if I talk about temples in Kyoto. The latter is a minefield, because, for instance, my boss is also a "Blu-Ray collector" but in his case, that means "bought the new Mad Max 4K boxset" (which is fine!) but in my case means I'm going to be visiting the brick and mortar outlet for Vinegar Syndrome in Toronto this Friday and I sure hope they have the 4K of Gérard Kikoïne's Buried Alive with the original slipcover in stock.
I remember the time we all went out for drinks at a bar with posted pictures of cops and I had enough drinks to start explaining why "Defund the police" is actually a reasonable and thoughtful goal. (sigh)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:27 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
You really have to pick your "safe" personality trait to highlight for work. I myself am "travel guy" although I have also eventually been outed as "collects Blu-Rays" guy. The former is easier, as even the most boring people can manage some interest if I talk about temples in Kyoto. The latter is a minefield, because, for instance, my boss is also a "Blu-Ray collector" but in his case, that means "bought the new Mad Max 4K boxset" (which is fine!) but in my case means I'm going to be visiting the brick and mortar outlet for Vinegar Syndrome in Toronto this Friday and I sure hope they have the 4K of Gérard Kikoïne's Buried Alive with the original slipcover in stock.
I remember the time we all went out for drinks at a bar with posted pictures of cops and I had enough drinks to start explaining why "Defund the police" is actually a reasonable and thoughtful goal. (sigh)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:27 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
Conversely, I've had several male acquaintances who think friendship makes it "safe" to be open with casual racism and misogyny. I've had coworkers randomly tell me the most horrible ethnic and dirty jokes just because I'm a guy and they thought I might like to hear it. Either it's some sort of perverse friendship test or these dudes have literally nothing else to bond over.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:58 AM on November 26, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:58 AM on November 26, 2024 [4 favorites]
Oh for sure. Not to go down a political rabbit hole, but the reason I am 100% certain that talk of the "immigrant crisis" is entirely motivated by racism is because the co-workers and clients who bring it up in front of me, often fully aware that my spouse is an immigrant, always without fail make it clear to me that the anti-immigrant policies they support wouldn't affect her, because... y'know they're not for people like her [white people].
I actually wouldn't mind not eating lunch by myself every single day at work, but the primary topics at the lunch table are "Trump will save us all" and "Isn't it time Biden was put in prison?" Plus, the racist anti-immigrant stuff.
Political divides definitely create loneliness.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:12 AM on November 26, 2024 [7 favorites]
I actually wouldn't mind not eating lunch by myself every single day at work, but the primary topics at the lunch table are "Trump will save us all" and "Isn't it time Biden was put in prison?" Plus, the racist anti-immigrant stuff.
Political divides definitely create loneliness.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:12 AM on November 26, 2024 [7 favorites]
I've had several male acquaintances who think friendship makes it "safe" to be open with casual racism and misogyny
The day after the 2016 election I was crying at work with a black coworker and a white coworker came over to where we were (quietly) commiserating and said "oh my god what's wrong???" And I looked at her like she was the stupidest person on earth and made a gesture that indicated, broadly, everything. And she said something like "was it a death in the family???" and I said, "Gina, it was the election." And she brightened and said "oh really? America needed a change!" So I turned around and ignored her, and the next day came to work wearing a Black Lives Matter button, and I wore it every single day of my life until the world shut down for covid and no one saw me in public anymore.
One of the best moves I ever made. Not only was the BLM button a visible indicator to White People that I was not A Safe White Person To Share Your Racism (this was my only goal in putting it on), but I also had so many coworkers come up to me over the next several years and privately say they knew they would be safe/okay/have a different experience because of how visible I was. And so many more quiet and positive interactions with strangers, too. And NO MORE WHITE PEOPLE sharing their shitty isms with me.
posted by phunniemee at 10:44 AM on November 26, 2024 [32 favorites]
The day after the 2016 election I was crying at work with a black coworker and a white coworker came over to where we were (quietly) commiserating and said "oh my god what's wrong???" And I looked at her like she was the stupidest person on earth and made a gesture that indicated, broadly, everything. And she said something like "was it a death in the family???" and I said, "Gina, it was the election." And she brightened and said "oh really? America needed a change!" So I turned around and ignored her, and the next day came to work wearing a Black Lives Matter button, and I wore it every single day of my life until the world shut down for covid and no one saw me in public anymore.
One of the best moves I ever made. Not only was the BLM button a visible indicator to White People that I was not A Safe White Person To Share Your Racism (this was my only goal in putting it on), but I also had so many coworkers come up to me over the next several years and privately say they knew they would be safe/okay/have a different experience because of how visible I was. And so many more quiet and positive interactions with strangers, too. And NO MORE WHITE PEOPLE sharing their shitty isms with me.
posted by phunniemee at 10:44 AM on November 26, 2024 [32 favorites]
When it comes to be my turn, I'm always faced with the dilemma of either being sincere and sharing something I don't feel comfortable sharing with co-workers
For the other side of this, I'm very open about myself at work* and I don't really give a heck about other people thinking I'm weird or whatever. And once again what this does is make other people more comfy sharing more of themselves, even if it's just a private chat saying something like "thank you so much for saying that" or the one time a coworker I had never even spoken to and knew nothing about called me out of the blue to say she finally separated from her abusive husband and she was proud of herself and thought I might be proud of her too. I was ♥️
*My workplace has a really good culture, my boss rules, and the work that I do would make it really complicated to fire me, so I recognize my privilege here for sure. But I've never regretted putting myself out there. For every one person who thinks something shitty about me, I truly believe there are at least two who feel safer in the world seeing me be okay being me, even if they never say a word.
posted by phunniemee at 10:52 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
For the other side of this, I'm very open about myself at work* and I don't really give a heck about other people thinking I'm weird or whatever. And once again what this does is make other people more comfy sharing more of themselves, even if it's just a private chat saying something like "thank you so much for saying that" or the one time a coworker I had never even spoken to and knew nothing about called me out of the blue to say she finally separated from her abusive husband and she was proud of herself and thought I might be proud of her too. I was ♥️
*My workplace has a really good culture, my boss rules, and the work that I do would make it really complicated to fire me, so I recognize my privilege here for sure. But I've never regretted putting myself out there. For every one person who thinks something shitty about me, I truly believe there are at least two who feel safer in the world seeing me be okay being me, even if they never say a word.
posted by phunniemee at 10:52 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
It's all fun and games until you're asked what you did on the weekend and you have mere seconds to decide whether you're going to let it all spill forth by telling a room full of people you barely know that you spent the third weekend in a row sitting in a hospital waiting room waiting for the inevitable or if you're just going to gather up your remaining spoons and get through this fucking interrogation with a subdued "I kept it quiet at home" and then hope no one asks any followup questions.
Since then I've made it a point to deliberately not participate in this bullshit in case anyone else wants the cover to keep their private life private.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:11 AM on November 26, 2024 [8 favorites]
Since then I've made it a point to deliberately not participate in this bullshit in case anyone else wants the cover to keep their private life private.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:11 AM on November 26, 2024 [8 favorites]
I'm feeling very alone this year. I have no plans for Thanksgiving. My 40th birthday is the day after and I have no plans that day either. My one friend who I could count on to wish me a happy birthday died recently. My grandmother who I shared a birthday with died a few years ago so I can't celebrate with her anymore. It's just not a good year at all and I don't see next year getting any better.
posted by downtohisturtles at 11:24 AM on November 26, 2024 [7 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 11:24 AM on November 26, 2024 [7 favorites]
My work Zoom meetings are generally pretty tolerable, but at the beginning of one in particular the host did a "let's get to know each other better as a team, what do you all like to do outside of work?" Most people happily volunteered (and most of them said "video games", which I'm not into). I kept my mouth shut hoping I'd be overlooked, not because anything I do for fun is especially weird, but it's nunyabidniss and I have zero interest in my coworkers outside of work (they're all remote and in other states, by the way). So when the host finally called on me I panicked and just said "I do...non-work stuff." Fortunately the host dropped the subject and we got on with the rest of the meeting.
I mean, I get along fine with my coworkers in terms of working with them; I'm just happy to leave it at that.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:29 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
I mean, I get along fine with my coworkers in terms of working with them; I'm just happy to leave it at that.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:29 AM on November 26, 2024 [1 favorite]
Dang, downtohisturtles, I am sending you the very strongest positive mind atoms for some nice times for turkey day and your birthday.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:33 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:33 AM on November 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
Happy early birthday, downtohisturtles. I'm sorry things are going the way that they are and I hope some miraculous improvement happens.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:33 PM on November 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:33 PM on November 26, 2024 [3 favorites]
Okay is loneliness like unemployment where it doesn’t count if you voluntarily choose to live that way, or are loneliness and being alone conflated in the analyses?
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on November 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on November 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
Political divides definitely create loneliness.
posted by DirtyOldTown
I'm open to this especially. I withdraw a lot lately, and foster a type of superficiality, because I think we are entering dark times in N. America certainly and political affiliation is more and more an emphatic in/out group statement. When people talk about the totalizing aspects of fascism, the way it demands everything (as a system), this is the trend I fear. Of course we will be lonelier, all of us in some way. Smartphones good/bad is a mistake, we use technologies and increasingly these technologies represent and reinforce systems of control. I don't think our technologies are truly designed to connect people.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:05 AM on November 29, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown
I'm open to this especially. I withdraw a lot lately, and foster a type of superficiality, because I think we are entering dark times in N. America certainly and political affiliation is more and more an emphatic in/out group statement. When people talk about the totalizing aspects of fascism, the way it demands everything (as a system), this is the trend I fear. Of course we will be lonelier, all of us in some way. Smartphones good/bad is a mistake, we use technologies and increasingly these technologies represent and reinforce systems of control. I don't think our technologies are truly designed to connect people.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:05 AM on November 29, 2024 [4 favorites]
They truly are designed to connect people to advertisers.
posted by y2karl at 12:34 PM on December 1, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 12:34 PM on December 1, 2024 [1 favorite]
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