Why do I need ID to get ID rules?
November 27, 2024 6:39 AM Subscribe
Intrepid civil rights agitator Edward Hasbrouck encounters Kafka at the gates of the TSA. Turns out reading a law is harder than you'd think: cross-country travel, recursive incorporation by reference, and uncomfortable benches. (Spoiler: he never got through the gates.)
I'm going to hold on to my physical IDs for as long as humanly possible.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:53 AM on November 27 [8 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:53 AM on November 27 [8 favorites]
I am going to continue to travel on my military ID, and if they refuse to let me travel on it, become the most obnoxious caricature of Angry Veteran they have ever seen and hope someone starts filming me.
posted by corb at 8:41 AM on November 27 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:41 AM on November 27 [8 favorites]
(Spoiler: he never got through the gates.)
He does, though:
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:33 AM on November 27 [3 favorites]
He does, though:
"An armed guard came out, and he and the business-suited minder who had been sitting on the bench with me escorted me through the gate in the fence and across no-man’s-land to the entrance to the building. After going theough a metal detector, I was escorted to a restroom (at least they waited outside) and then back out past the metal detector to a conference room just inside the outer entry door that appeared to be there specifically for the purpose of meetings with visitors not cleared to go further into the building....and he continues to review the documents that had originally been brought to him outside the gates.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:33 AM on November 27 [3 favorites]
@The Pluto Gangsta — oh right I forgot about that "happy" ending!
posted by rossmeissl at 10:57 AM on November 27 [2 favorites]
posted by rossmeissl at 10:57 AM on November 27 [2 favorites]
I guess we know what happens to those people who film themselves hysterical screaming “AM I BEING DETAINED???” As they are arrested at USCIS checkpoints once they get promoted from YouTube to blog posts.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:03 AM on November 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:03 AM on November 27 [1 favorite]
I'm all for checking government regulations for sneakily-introduced infringements on our rights and accountability to the public, but this whole effort seems to be reading grand conspiracies into a quotidian regulation. The rule is just allowing federal agencies to accept a mobile driver's license or ID if a consumer has one. For those worried about grand federal overreach, it keeps the responsibility for issuing those with State governments.
And regarding the big to-do about "Incorporated By Reference" standards that "have the rule of law" -- this is silly; TSA writes that "TSA understands that these standards and guidelines discussed are the most comprehensive and relevant references governing [mobile drivers licenses] today. TSA also acknowledges that many additional standards and guidelines are in development and may provide additional standardized mechanisms for mDLs." That said, there's no excuse for not checking for broken links in the rule though. That's a nice editorial catch that I'd say didn't require driving all the way to DC and camping outside for hours and hours.
posted by Theiform at 11:33 AM on November 27 [1 favorite]
And regarding the big to-do about "Incorporated By Reference" standards that "have the rule of law" -- this is silly; TSA writes that "TSA understands that these standards and guidelines discussed are the most comprehensive and relevant references governing [mobile drivers licenses] today. TSA also acknowledges that many additional standards and guidelines are in development and may provide additional standardized mechanisms for mDLs." That said, there's no excuse for not checking for broken links in the rule though. That's a nice editorial catch that I'd say didn't require driving all the way to DC and camping outside for hours and hours.
posted by Theiform at 11:33 AM on November 27 [1 favorite]
I think there are legitimate concerns that some things (*cough*building codes*cough*) that have the force of law are not available without paid access, but I'm not certain this is one of them.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:55 PM on November 27 [3 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 12:55 PM on November 27 [3 favorites]
I think the point about the ID apps logging who accessed them is valid.
If this log is kept on the device, I wonder if you can clear it by deleting and reinstalling the app?
posted by smelendez at 12:55 PM on November 27 [6 favorites]
If this log is kept on the device, I wonder if you can clear it by deleting and reinstalling the app?
posted by smelendez at 12:55 PM on November 27 [6 favorites]
But the consistent position of your agency in litigation has been that no Federal law or regulation requires airline passengers to have, to carry, or to show ID. The responses by your agency to some of our FOIA requests confirm that, as you know, people fly without ID every day.Wait, what?
Really?
Does anybody know more about this?
posted by clawsoon at 1:52 PM on November 27
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/can-you-fly-without-id
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:05 PM on November 27 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:05 PM on November 27 [1 favorite]
This is mind-boggling. What possible (genuine) reason exists for people to need any form of ID to travel by plane? Functionally, planes are just public transport in the same way a bus or train is, so what is so special about air travel that it requires all this security theatre?
I fly pretty regularly (in Australia) and have never been asked for ID at any point in the process, except for a brief period just after 9/11, when everyone was paranoid. I buy a ticket (just like on a train), turn up at the airport (just like walking into a train station), get on the plane, then back off again at my destination. If I check a bag, I have to go through a minor automated process to make sure it ends up on the right plane, but that's it. Yes, I have to go through the completely useless security scan to get into the secure area of the airport, but that's nothing more than theatre and achieves nothing.
posted by dg at 2:47 PM on November 27 [1 favorite]
I fly pretty regularly (in Australia) and have never been asked for ID at any point in the process, except for a brief period just after 9/11, when everyone was paranoid. I buy a ticket (just like on a train), turn up at the airport (just like walking into a train station), get on the plane, then back off again at my destination. If I check a bag, I have to go through a minor automated process to make sure it ends up on the right plane, but that's it. Yes, I have to go through the completely useless security scan to get into the secure area of the airport, but that's nothing more than theatre and achieves nothing.
posted by dg at 2:47 PM on November 27 [1 favorite]
dg: 9/11 ratchet – nobody wants to take the heat for lowering security measures added 20 years ago, especially since they’ll immediately be attacked by the right-wing media as “coddling terrorists” or something. We still have to take our shoes off even though that guy wasn’t even successful.
I think people are hoping the end game will be advanced scanners which let them say they aren’t weakening anything. The new scanners at Dulles have check times almost back to turn of the century levels because you don’t need to remove anything from your bags. Every time we use them I’m assuming that the manufacturer must be rolling in cash because Americans will spend money rather than have hard discussions every time.
posted by adamsc at 5:23 PM on November 27 [1 favorite]
I think people are hoping the end game will be advanced scanners which let them say they aren’t weakening anything. The new scanners at Dulles have check times almost back to turn of the century levels because you don’t need to remove anything from your bags. Every time we use them I’m assuming that the manufacturer must be rolling in cash because Americans will spend money rather than have hard discussions every time.
posted by adamsc at 5:23 PM on November 27 [1 favorite]
This is mind-boggling. What possible (genuine) reason exists for people to need any form of ID to travel by plane? Functionally, planes are just public transport in the same way a bus or train is, so what is so special about air travel that it requires all this security theatre?
There isn't one. adamsc provides an excellent explanation but none of that is a genuine reason, it's all performative security theater. Logically there's zero reason but us Americans are not known for being logical or sensible, its a culture founded on fear of others and this is just another extension of that fear. Sadly I don't think America even knows how to function without an Other to either fear or despise.
I fly within Europe frequently and not only do I not need an ID, I don't even interact with a person before getting on the plane. The bag drop is automated, turnstiles for security checkpoints and at the gate are automated, all that's required is my mobile boarding pass.
The new scanners at Dulles have check times almost back to turn of the century levels because you don’t need to remove anything from your bags. Every time we use them I’m assuming that the manufacturer must be rolling in cash because Americans will spend money rather than have hard discussions every time.
If you're referring to the new 3D CT bag scanners, they have those in some European airports as well so not just a US thing - Europe doesn't have the silly ID rules but they do largely have the same rules on removing everything from your carryon. As a hobbyist photographer who sometimed travels with a very large amount of electronics and lenses, they are a godsend. Glad to hear they're becoming more common stateside.
posted by photo guy at 12:32 AM on November 28
There isn't one. adamsc provides an excellent explanation but none of that is a genuine reason, it's all performative security theater. Logically there's zero reason but us Americans are not known for being logical or sensible, its a culture founded on fear of others and this is just another extension of that fear. Sadly I don't think America even knows how to function without an Other to either fear or despise.
I fly within Europe frequently and not only do I not need an ID, I don't even interact with a person before getting on the plane. The bag drop is automated, turnstiles for security checkpoints and at the gate are automated, all that's required is my mobile boarding pass.
The new scanners at Dulles have check times almost back to turn of the century levels because you don’t need to remove anything from your bags. Every time we use them I’m assuming that the manufacturer must be rolling in cash because Americans will spend money rather than have hard discussions every time.
If you're referring to the new 3D CT bag scanners, they have those in some European airports as well so not just a US thing - Europe doesn't have the silly ID rules but they do largely have the same rules on removing everything from your carryon. As a hobbyist photographer who sometimed travels with a very large amount of electronics and lenses, they are a godsend. Glad to hear they're becoming more common stateside.
posted by photo guy at 12:32 AM on November 28
Reading that nerd wallet article, are you soon going to be completely screwed if you lose your ID and need to fly? Or will it be that showing up and saying you don't have an ID will just get you the full extra special security theater but trying to use a non Real-ID will get you rejected? Because that would be hilarious in a Brazil (movie, not country) sort of way.
(I had to fly after losing my driver's license once. PITA, but not really as big a deal as I expected.)
posted by Hactar at 1:59 AM on November 28 [2 favorites]
(I had to fly after losing my driver's license once. PITA, but not really as big a deal as I expected.)
posted by Hactar at 1:59 AM on November 28 [2 favorites]
photo guy, that's curious that you don't show your ID for European flights. I fly extremely frequently in Europe and I've never in my life gotten on a plane without showing ID at some stage. In Brussels, IDs are checked at multiple stages during entry/check-in/boarding.
posted by rosiroo at 5:07 AM on November 28
posted by rosiroo at 5:07 AM on November 28
The airlines should care if you have an ID or not, even if security doesn’t, especially if you’re paying a boatload of money for a trip. I have a common name and fly a lot. Once I showed up at the gate and was told that I’d already departed. I said something to the effect of “That’s odd as I’m standing right here.” Turns out someone showed up to the airport, said they were me (or had same name), rebooked my flight from the 1:00 pm departure to the 11:00 am departure, and took off. When I pointed out the numerous people who’d failed to accurately check ID’s along the way, things magically got done real quick and I found myself in a first class seat. I blame airline incompetence for this, not my duplicate’s malice as I imagine they just assumed airline incompetence as well when they saw they were booked on the “wrong” flight.
I know it’s all security theater - I did some consulting work for the FAA/DoD so am up to speed on all of this. I don’t think people realize how much money there is to extract from the docile sheep.
posted by Farce_First at 5:23 AM on November 28
I know it’s all security theater - I did some consulting work for the FAA/DoD so am up to speed on all of this. I don’t think people realize how much money there is to extract from the docile sheep.
posted by Farce_First at 5:23 AM on November 28
photo guy, that's curious that you don't show your ID for European flights. I fly extremely frequently in Europe and I've never in my life gotten on a plane without showing ID at some stage.
Are you flying outside of Schengen? I am in Sweden and most of my flights have been short hops within the Nordics, but I had the same experience flying to Germany and Italy last year - no ID check whatsoever. I lived in Germany for a bit several years ago and it was exactly the same. When I go back to the US I obviously have to show ID at check-in but I was only referring to intra-Europe flights. Given the disaster that was TSA at O'hare the last time I was in the US (grumpy agents, crappy malfunctioning ID scanners, nonexistent instructions, extremely long lines even with Precheck) I can't say I mind - it might not be the most secure option on the planet but it's a lot less hassle.
posted by photo guy at 7:08 AM on November 28
Are you flying outside of Schengen? I am in Sweden and most of my flights have been short hops within the Nordics, but I had the same experience flying to Germany and Italy last year - no ID check whatsoever. I lived in Germany for a bit several years ago and it was exactly the same. When I go back to the US I obviously have to show ID at check-in but I was only referring to intra-Europe flights. Given the disaster that was TSA at O'hare the last time I was in the US (grumpy agents, crappy malfunctioning ID scanners, nonexistent instructions, extremely long lines even with Precheck) I can't say I mind - it might not be the most secure option on the planet but it's a lot less hassle.
posted by photo guy at 7:08 AM on November 28
Just to add, I have a few times been asked for passports if I use the full-service check in counter, but I rarely do so - I either am traveling with just a carryon or I use the self-service bag drop. I use the airline apps for check-in so I already have a boarding pass when I get to the airport.
posted by photo guy at 7:10 AM on November 28
posted by photo guy at 7:10 AM on November 28
what is so special about air travel that it requires all this security theatre?
I can't attest to the international motivation, but domestic flights in the US started taking security moderately seriously in reaction to mostly politically-motivated plane hijackings to Cuba. They reached their peak in the late 60s but were kind of a constant low-frequency thing for decades. Having hostile, unextraditable territory 90 miles away from a superpower meant that if you wanted to give the US a black eye and escape without consequences, hijacking a plane in the southeast was a pretty good way to go. Naturally, the US didn't want to make this easy, and that's why magnetometer and bag scans became routine.
It was this state of affairs which actually made the September 11th hijackings possible. The established protocols for a plane hijacking in America as of September 10th, 2001 were that if you just keep cool and go along with the terrorists, while it's gonna suck (other than getting to see Cuba, which might be nice), eventually everyone will get out OK. The big loophole they used was essentially self-closing: as soon as acquiescence wasn't the norm any more, nobody was going to effectively be able to take control of a plane with a knife (or even a gun or bomb). But we still have all the groundside security measures because the government could get away with tightening things then, and once they did that nobody wanted to be "soft on terrorism" and loosen them up.
posted by jackbishop at 7:20 AM on November 28 [4 favorites]
I can't attest to the international motivation, but domestic flights in the US started taking security moderately seriously in reaction to mostly politically-motivated plane hijackings to Cuba. They reached their peak in the late 60s but were kind of a constant low-frequency thing for decades. Having hostile, unextraditable territory 90 miles away from a superpower meant that if you wanted to give the US a black eye and escape without consequences, hijacking a plane in the southeast was a pretty good way to go. Naturally, the US didn't want to make this easy, and that's why magnetometer and bag scans became routine.
It was this state of affairs which actually made the September 11th hijackings possible. The established protocols for a plane hijacking in America as of September 10th, 2001 were that if you just keep cool and go along with the terrorists, while it's gonna suck (other than getting to see Cuba, which might be nice), eventually everyone will get out OK. The big loophole they used was essentially self-closing: as soon as acquiescence wasn't the norm any more, nobody was going to effectively be able to take control of a plane with a knife (or even a gun or bomb). But we still have all the groundside security measures because the government could get away with tightening things then, and once they did that nobody wanted to be "soft on terrorism" and loosen them up.
posted by jackbishop at 7:20 AM on November 28 [4 favorites]
This is mind-boggling. What possible (genuine) reason exists for people to need any form of ID to travel by plane? Functionally, planes are just public transport in the same way a bus or train is, so what is so special about air travel that it requires all this security theatre?
It's that air travel has a terrifying history and that it seems deeply unnatural to pack yourself into a magical winged metal tube that is flung through the air. This is why there is such massive NTSB infrastructure around flying and flight crash investigation all while 35K people are killed and about half a million injured each year in car collisions and that receives little to no investigation and minimal preventative remediation.
Flight security theater is about countering a near instinctive deep fear of flying that comes from the terrifying and spectacular failure modes of air travel.
posted by srboisvert at 9:02 AM on November 28 [1 favorite]
It's that air travel has a terrifying history and that it seems deeply unnatural to pack yourself into a magical winged metal tube that is flung through the air. This is why there is such massive NTSB infrastructure around flying and flight crash investigation all while 35K people are killed and about half a million injured each year in car collisions and that receives little to no investigation and minimal preventative remediation.
Flight security theater is about countering a near instinctive deep fear of flying that comes from the terrifying and spectacular failure modes of air travel.
posted by srboisvert at 9:02 AM on November 28 [1 favorite]
But we still have all the groundside security measures because the government could get away with tightening things then, and once they did that nobody wanted to be "soft on terrorism" and loosen them up.
There have also been some pretty big airline bomb attacks. Lockerbie and Air India flight 182 being ones that the people may know but there have been lots of other less famous bomb attacks.
posted by srboisvert at 9:12 AM on November 28
There have also been some pretty big airline bomb attacks. Lockerbie and Air India flight 182 being ones that the people may know but there have been lots of other less famous bomb attacks.
posted by srboisvert at 9:12 AM on November 28
We still have to take our shoes off even though that guy wasn’t even successful.
It really weird to see this theatre from the outside. I fly a lot for work in Canada and last flight the people in line were taking their shoes off and I was WTF? then they started talking to the boarding pass checker and I clued in they were Americans and remembered that is done there.
And then half my flights depart from a charter airport and there is no security at all past a cursory boarding pass check. As simple as boarding a city bus. They don't even check our names off a list or something and a few times when there were multiple planes boarding we've had people get on the wrong plane and not notice till the pilot started making announcements.
posted by Mitheral at 9:46 AM on November 28 [1 favorite]
It really weird to see this theatre from the outside. I fly a lot for work in Canada and last flight the people in line were taking their shoes off and I was WTF? then they started talking to the boarding pass checker and I clued in they were Americans and remembered that is done there.
And then half my flights depart from a charter airport and there is no security at all past a cursory boarding pass check. As simple as boarding a city bus. They don't even check our names off a list or something and a few times when there were multiple planes boarding we've had people get on the wrong plane and not notice till the pilot started making announcements.
posted by Mitheral at 9:46 AM on November 28 [1 favorite]
If you're referring to the new 3D CT bag scanners, they have those in some European airports as well so not just a US thing - Europe doesn't have the silly ID rules but they do largely have the same rules on removing everything from your carryon
These are becoming pretty common here in Australia as well, along with the full-body scanners. So we don't have to take anything out of carry-on bags now, but still have to remove belts, jackets and hats.
I get that air travel has been a target of bad actors in a way that other public transport hasn't and there's a still a certain mystique about flying but I also wonder how much of the nonsense is because air travel is perceived as more of a middle-to-upper class thing, where only poor people catch buses.
posted by dg at 2:19 PM on November 28
These are becoming pretty common here in Australia as well, along with the full-body scanners. So we don't have to take anything out of carry-on bags now, but still have to remove belts, jackets and hats.
I get that air travel has been a target of bad actors in a way that other public transport hasn't and there's a still a certain mystique about flying but I also wonder how much of the nonsense is because air travel is perceived as more of a middle-to-upper class thing, where only poor people catch buses.
posted by dg at 2:19 PM on November 28
At JFK International, not only can you fly without ID but apparently you can fly without a ticket.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:24 PM on November 28
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:24 PM on November 28
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I can't imagine it's gotten any better since then.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 6:48 AM on November 27 [5 favorites]