NYT: Brian Thompson, Not Luigi Mangione, Is the Real Working-Class Hero
December 13, 2024 3:11 PM Subscribe
New York Times Opinon columnist Bret Stephens [archive.org]: "One of the more moving stories in The Times [archive.org] this week is an account of the life of Brian Thompson, the United Healthcare chief executive who was gunned down on Dec. 4 outside of a Midtown Manhattan hotel. [...] 'He was just a farm kid living out in rural Iowa,' said [childhood friend]. 'Everybody got along with him and he got along with everybody else. He was just a great, silly, funny, smart guy to be around all through the years that I have known him.' [...] [Luigi Mangione] is the scion of a wealthy and prominent Maryland family, was educated at an elite private school and the University of Pennsylvania and worked remotely from a nice apartment in Hawaii."
Stephens continues: "Those details are worth bearing in mind as some people seek to cast his killing as a tale of justified, or at least understandable, fury against faceless corporate greed. One ex-Times reporter, Taylor Lorenz, said she felt 'joy' at the killing. Elizabeth Warren, the Massachusetts senator, offered that 'violence is never the answer' but 'people can only be pushed so far.' [...] It’s worth pointing out that a 2023 survey from the nonpartisan health policy research institute KFF found that 81 percent of insured adults gave their health insurance plans a rating of 'excellent' or 'good.' [...] The idea that those companies represent a unique evil in American life is divorced from the experience of most of their customers."
The Behind the Bastards podcast has a two-episode series, "How The Liberal Media Helped Fascism Win" Part 1 and Part 2: Robert sits down with best pal Michael Swaim to discuss the great liberal media organizations of Italy, Germany and the U.S. in the 1920s and 30s, and how they failed utterly to stop Mussolini and Hitler.
How to cancel your New York Times subscription: "Under your account, select Subscription Overview. Select Cancel your Subscription in the Manage Subscription section, and follow the instructions to cancel."
Stephens continues: "Those details are worth bearing in mind as some people seek to cast his killing as a tale of justified, or at least understandable, fury against faceless corporate greed. One ex-Times reporter, Taylor Lorenz, said she felt 'joy' at the killing. Elizabeth Warren, the Massachusetts senator, offered that 'violence is never the answer' but 'people can only be pushed so far.' [...] It’s worth pointing out that a 2023 survey from the nonpartisan health policy research institute KFF found that 81 percent of insured adults gave their health insurance plans a rating of 'excellent' or 'good.' [...] The idea that those companies represent a unique evil in American life is divorced from the experience of most of their customers."
The Behind the Bastards podcast has a two-episode series, "How The Liberal Media Helped Fascism Win" Part 1 and Part 2: Robert sits down with best pal Michael Swaim to discuss the great liberal media organizations of Italy, Germany and the U.S. in the 1920s and 30s, and how they failed utterly to stop Mussolini and Hitler.
How to cancel your New York Times subscription: "Under your account, select Subscription Overview. Select Cancel your Subscription in the Manage Subscription section, and follow the instructions to cancel."
Woooowwwwww!
posted by Pedantzilla at 3:26 PM on December 13 [4 favorites]
posted by Pedantzilla at 3:26 PM on December 13 [4 favorites]
The idea that those companies represent a unique evil in American life is divorced from the experience of most of their customers.
wat
posted by lock robster at 3:37 PM on December 13 [51 favorites]
wat
posted by lock robster at 3:37 PM on December 13 [51 favorites]
He became chief executive of the insurance division, UnitedHealthcare, in April 2021, leading a unit that employs about 140,000 people and reported $281 billion in revenue last year. Under his leadership, the company’s profits rose to more than $16 billion last year from $12 billion in 2021.
How can anyone wish him ill will? He was a true working-class hero! Under his leadership, the company’s profits rose by $4 billion. How can that be a bad thing?
posted by AlSweigart at 3:39 PM on December 13 [54 favorites]
How can anyone wish him ill will? He was a true working-class hero! Under his leadership, the company’s profits rose by $4 billion. How can that be a bad thing?
posted by AlSweigart at 3:39 PM on December 13 [54 favorites]
Angry rich kids jacked up on radical, nihilistic philosophies can cause a lot of harm, not least to the working-class folks whose interests they pretend to champion.
And if you don’t believe it now, wait until the new administration’s appointees are on the job!
posted by nickmark at 3:39 PM on December 13 [34 favorites]
And if you don’t believe it now, wait until the new administration’s appointees are on the job!
posted by nickmark at 3:39 PM on December 13 [34 favorites]
Tangential to the main topic, but it’s amazing to me hearing Michael Swaim discussed in the context of serious journalism, when I’m old enough to remember his Internet comedy work as “the host droid” on Cracked.com.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 3:40 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 3:40 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
So fuckin sickening see the media try to spin this shit around. The world cannot be good while rich people are permitted to exist. Nobody has to be rich, all rich people can immediately cease being rich as soon as they decide to be good people and give the money they stole from everyone back. We know they won't and to take it back we will need more collective action than an errant vigilante can dole out. The government, media, and corporation want to crush the people and the people need to fight back anyway we can.
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:40 PM on December 13 [46 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:40 PM on December 13 [46 favorites]
Not just an evil rich person but a class traitor - awesome!
posted by queensissy at 3:43 PM on December 13 [33 favorites]
posted by queensissy at 3:43 PM on December 13 [33 favorites]
And somehow Mangione is "angry rich kid." Bret Stephens continues to be amazing.
posted by queensissy at 3:44 PM on December 13 [7 favorites]
posted by queensissy at 3:44 PM on December 13 [7 favorites]
I would say this is a new low for the NYTimes, but that was probably when they interviewed neo-Nazis about their ice cream preferences and called it journalism. This is just trolling. And I know NYTimes journalists are here on this site, and you should all be ashamed of yourselves: each and every last one of you, for being a willing participant in your company's charade.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:45 PM on December 13 [108 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:45 PM on December 13 [108 favorites]
i'm going to subscribe just so i can unsubscribe in disgust.
posted by mittens at 3:45 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
posted by mittens at 3:45 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
I think there's a confusion in this article about what is wealth and power. You don't have wealth and power if you can't get away with murder.
The wealthy and powerful have lawyers, lobbyists, and personal security.
They can afford to refile lawsuits and legislative bills. You have to win against them every time.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:48 PM on December 13 [24 favorites]
The wealthy and powerful have lawyers, lobbyists, and personal security.
They can afford to refile lawsuits and legislative bills. You have to win against them every time.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:48 PM on December 13 [24 favorites]
I can’t figure out how to put it better than George Carlin’s “it’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”, in terms of the unity of purpose and solidarity among the capitalist class, but everyone whose primary income comes from the assets they own rather than the labor they perform are all on the same side when push comes to shove.
posted by Jon_Evil at 3:49 PM on December 13 [36 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 3:49 PM on December 13 [36 favorites]
To be fair, this is probably the first time Bret Stephens was asked/forced to try and empathize with the working class. He did a terrible job! But then again, what do you expect from a conservative elitist muppet?
Since he speaks Spanish, maybe he'll understand the following phrase: "el es uno de los que piensa que mea coca-cola y caga chocolate."
posted by nikoniko at 3:51 PM on December 13 [8 favorites]
Since he speaks Spanish, maybe he'll understand the following phrase: "el es uno de los que piensa que mea coca-cola y caga chocolate."
posted by nikoniko at 3:51 PM on December 13 [8 favorites]
the nyt's cognitive dissonance is dizzying
posted by cnidaria at 3:57 PM on December 13 [5 favorites]
posted by cnidaria at 3:57 PM on December 13 [5 favorites]
Bret Stephens is a moron and I don't know how Gail doesn't hit him over the head every week. HIs hemming and hawing about how as a conservative he can't really stomach voting for Kamala blah blah blah even though Trump is awful, every effing week, was ridiculous.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:58 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:58 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
Something tells me that even if Bret Stephens' writing on the topic hadn't been shortened by the wordcount limit of the Opinion page, he still would have cherry-picked and misrepresented that KFF survey; which, of course, is just the kind of thing you do when you write for the NYT, because you've chosen to be a tool that capital can leverage against labor and everything and anything else.
I studied political philosophy at the University of Chicago and comparative politics at the London School of Economics. I worked for The Wall Street Journal
Yeah, I can see this is a guy who really understands and is qualified to speak to & represent anything at all on behalf of someone from a working-class life and upbringing.
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 4:01 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
I studied political philosophy at the University of Chicago and comparative politics at the London School of Economics. I worked for The Wall Street Journal
Yeah, I can see this is a guy who really understands and is qualified to speak to & represent anything at all on behalf of someone from a working-class life and upbringing.
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 4:01 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
I’m pretty sure this is the first piece of Bret Stephens’ writing I’ve read, but I feel pretty confident that in another life he made similar arguments about how the Sheriff of Nottingham was the one who was really robbing the rich to give to the poor.
posted by nickmark at 4:02 PM on December 13 [22 favorites]
posted by nickmark at 4:02 PM on December 13 [22 favorites]
You don't have wealth and power if you can't get away with murder.
But this is America, where even a nice middle class boy can get away with murder, as long as he murders the right people.
posted by TedW at 4:05 PM on December 13 [32 favorites]
But this is America, where even a nice middle class boy can get away with murder, as long as he murders the right people.
posted by TedW at 4:05 PM on December 13 [32 favorites]
Heroism is not defined by managing to scramble from the exploited to the exploiting class, but it doesn't surprise me one bit that ol' Bretbug thinks that it is.
posted by praemunire at 4:09 PM on December 13 [14 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 4:09 PM on December 13 [14 favorites]
but it doesn't surprise me one bit that ol' Bretbug thinks that it is.
It's quite generous to say that Bret Stephens believes the things he writes.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:10 PM on December 13 [7 favorites]
It's quite generous to say that Bret Stephens believes the things he writes.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:10 PM on December 13 [7 favorites]
Stephens isn't a moron, or possibly not just a moron: his arguments are consistently bad-faith abuses of logic, reason, and the various sources he misrepresents. The NYT talks about wanting a diversity of views on its editorial page; fine; but if you can't find someone who will represent a given view with honest arguments that stand up to even the lightest inspection, that's a problem.
His ex-wife is Pamela Paul, who has also been given an NYT editorial column, which is also a problem even ignoring the content of what she writes (lots about how trans kids shouldn't get gender-affirming care).
posted by trig at 4:12 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
His ex-wife is Pamela Paul, who has also been given an NYT editorial column, which is also a problem even ignoring the content of what she writes (lots about how trans kids shouldn't get gender-affirming care).
posted by trig at 4:12 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
That's $24 dollars a month I won't be spending anymore. Jesus Tapdancing Christ.
posted by briank at 4:14 PM on December 13 [13 favorites]
posted by briank at 4:14 PM on December 13 [13 favorites]
a 2023 survey from the nonpartisan health policy research institute KFF found that 81 percent of insured adults gave their health insurance plans a rating of “excellent” or “good.”I wonder what would happen if they sliced by experience of living outside of the US.
posted by The genius who rejected Anno's budget proposal. at 4:24 PM on December 13 [8 favorites]
The Armond White of political discourse.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 4:25 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
posted by UltraMorgnus at 4:25 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
The media has really gone into overdrive to prevent this pot from boiling over. I'd begun to think they were nihilists (on account of rolling over for Trump who plans to destroy all institutions), but no, they finally found something to believe in: the wholesomeness of CEOs! This man was made of American-grown corn! He smelled like apple pie! Those who die because they're denied life-saving medical care are truly blessed.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 4:37 PM on December 13 [34 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 4:37 PM on December 13 [34 favorites]
Seriously, where can people get decent news, covering a comparable breadth of real nes with the “paper of record” that isn’t fawning over our nations’s capitulation to fascists, cheerleading for genocide, nor calling for the extermination of trans and homeless people?
posted by Jon_Evil at 4:47 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 4:47 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
And I know NYTimes journalists are here on this site,
You sure about that?
posted by Selena777 at 5:04 PM on December 13 [2 favorites]
You sure about that?
posted by Selena777 at 5:04 PM on December 13 [2 favorites]
[glances around nervously]
posted by Lemkin at 5:11 PM on December 13 [12 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 5:11 PM on December 13 [12 favorites]
At some point, the actual New York Times zoomed past the New York Times Pitchbot (formerly).
posted by LostInUbe at 5:16 PM on December 13 [17 favorites]
posted by LostInUbe at 5:16 PM on December 13 [17 favorites]
a 2023 survey from the nonpartisan health policy research institute KFF found that 81 percent of insured adults gave their health insurance plans a rating of 'excellent' or 'good.'
How about asking the people without insurance?
"100% of lottery winners say lottery tickets are great value, an excellent investment!"
posted by Dysk at 5:21 PM on December 13 [29 favorites]
How about asking the people without insurance?
"100% of lottery winners say lottery tickets are great value, an excellent investment!"
posted by Dysk at 5:21 PM on December 13 [29 favorites]
I unsubscribed right after the election. I have found the NYT to be kind of unreliable as far as actual news goes, especially local NYC news. Now I subscribe to a bunch of different new sources like Reuters and ProPublia; For international news I watch DW News (DeutschesWeil - German) on youtube and France 24; for local NYC news I have subscribed to Gothamist and The City; for political news, the newsletter WTF Just Happened Today is a really good no bullshit summary. I know it sounds inconvenient but that's the way it's going to have to be for the foreseeable future.
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:22 PM on December 13 [28 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:22 PM on December 13 [28 favorites]
I would love to support journalists with a “journalism-only” subscription. The NY Times can fund their bad faith opinion section some other way.
posted by lemonshush at 5:23 PM on December 13 [8 favorites]
posted by lemonshush at 5:23 PM on December 13 [8 favorites]
DW News (DeutschesWeil - German)
Isn't it Deutsche Welle (German wave)?
*checks Wikipedia*
It is!
posted by Dysk at 5:26 PM on December 13 [6 favorites]
Isn't it Deutsche Welle (German wave)?
*checks Wikipedia*
It is!
posted by Dysk at 5:26 PM on December 13 [6 favorites]
Thanks Dysk - missed the edit window! But I generally find it pretty good for international news
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:29 PM on December 13
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:29 PM on December 13
I wonder what would happen if they sliced by experience of living outside of the US.
Yes. What most Americans describe when they say they have good health care is horrific.
""I have good healthcare. It costs a $1000 a month, my co-pay is $50 ($100 if it's emergency care), and my annual deductible is only several thousand dollars. With that I'm covered for 30% of the hospitals in my state but maybe not including the anesthesiologist and my plan only initially rejects 30% of my claims but their appeal process is quick, I rarely wait on hold for more than an hour, and half the appeals go my way.""
Here's a test: if you have to direct the ambulance to a farther hospital when you are bleeding out because the close one isn't covered and going there would mean bankruptcy you don't have good health insurance/care.
posted by Mitheral at 5:34 PM on December 13 [52 favorites]
Yes. What most Americans describe when they say they have good health care is horrific.
""I have good healthcare. It costs a $1000 a month, my co-pay is $50 ($100 if it's emergency care), and my annual deductible is only several thousand dollars. With that I'm covered for 30% of the hospitals in my state but maybe not including the anesthesiologist and my plan only initially rejects 30% of my claims but their appeal process is quick, I rarely wait on hold for more than an hour, and half the appeals go my way.""
Here's a test: if you have to direct the ambulance to a farther hospital when you are bleeding out because the close one isn't covered and going there would mean bankruptcy you don't have good health insurance/care.
posted by Mitheral at 5:34 PM on December 13 [52 favorites]
a 2023 survey from the nonpartisan health policy research institute KFF found that 81 percent of insured adults gave their health insurance plans a rating of 'excellent' or 'good.'
If you asked me I'd say I have "good" health insurance by American standards by which I mean that it sucks horribly in an absolute sense but is "good" by relative to other American health insurance standards. I've experienced Canadian (OHIP) and British (NHS pre Conservative degradation) healthcare and here in the US is the first time I have been genuinely terrified of needing healthcare.
posted by srboisvert at 5:35 PM on December 13 [20 favorites]
If you asked me I'd say I have "good" health insurance by American standards by which I mean that it sucks horribly in an absolute sense but is "good" by relative to other American health insurance standards. I've experienced Canadian (OHIP) and British (NHS pre Conservative degradation) healthcare and here in the US is the first time I have been genuinely terrified of needing healthcare.
posted by srboisvert at 5:35 PM on December 13 [20 favorites]
Already been mad at this one twice before it made it to MeFi. Don’t really feel like it needed to make it here.
posted by atoxyl at 5:38 PM on December 13 [13 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 5:38 PM on December 13 [13 favorites]
Brian Thompson, the United Healthcare chief executive [...] was just a farm kid living out in rural Iowa,'
This statement went through a journalist (or someone who calls themselves that) and at least one editor, with nobody looking at the words in that order and saying "we can't print this guys, we'll look like clowns". Incredible.
posted by Dysk at 5:39 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
This statement went through a journalist (or someone who calls themselves that) and at least one editor, with nobody looking at the words in that order and saying "we can't print this guys, we'll look like clowns". Incredible.
posted by Dysk at 5:39 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
Taylor Lorenz clarifies what she actually said about "joy."
As a result of this smear campaign I’ve received a non stop tidal wave of harassment. Friends of mine have been attacked just for their affiliation with me and media reporters have been harassing companies I’ve worked with in the past, threatening them with bad press if they don’t condemn me. I’m completely fine, but I think it’s crucial that people recognize exactly how the media pushes false narratives like this and why.posted by Western Infidels at 5:40 PM on December 13 [20 favorites]
The NYT has to just be trolling now for clicks right? What other possible explanation is there?
posted by Wretch729 at 5:47 PM on December 13 [3 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 5:47 PM on December 13 [3 favorites]
One of the top comments from the article
"
You are an extractive industry with no purpose other than to take money from people and put up barriers to care. You serve no purpose other than to create value for shareholders and executives at the direct expense of suffering people. Your entire industry should be banished, after paying reparations to everyone it has harmed - and the families of those who died because you denied them needed care so that people like you can have a bigger salaries and nice bonuses.
"
posted by lalochezia at 5:54 PM on December 13 [42 favorites]
"
You are an extractive industry with no purpose other than to take money from people and put up barriers to care. You serve no purpose other than to create value for shareholders and executives at the direct expense of suffering people. Your entire industry should be banished, after paying reparations to everyone it has harmed - and the families of those who died because you denied them needed care so that people like you can have a bigger salaries and nice bonuses.
"
posted by lalochezia at 5:54 PM on December 13 [42 favorites]
Does Brett not understand where an insurance company's "profits" come from?
posted by 1adam12 at 5:55 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 5:55 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
You sure about that?
Yes, definitely. I will leave it at that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:00 PM on December 13 [1 favorite]
Yes, definitely. I will leave it at that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:00 PM on December 13 [1 favorite]
Something seems off about that KFF survey - an less optimistic pull quote from it could have been "Despite rating their insurance positively, most insured adults report experiencing problems using their health coverage; people in poorer health are more likely to report problems."
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:01 PM on December 13 [7 favorites]
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 6:01 PM on December 13 [7 favorites]
The NYT has to just be trolling now for clicks right? What other possible explanation is there?
I remember using the term "ragebait" for the NYT twice on the same day:
Opinion: Why the Pandemic Probably Started in a Lab (blatant racist right-wing conspiracy theory)
"I Spent Three Years Talking to Boys. Here’s What I Found" (i.e. woke feminists are to blame for toxic masculinity)
So that's three strikes for me for the "paper of record."
posted by AlSweigart at 6:06 PM on December 13 [23 favorites]
I remember using the term "ragebait" for the NYT twice on the same day:
Opinion: Why the Pandemic Probably Started in a Lab (blatant racist right-wing conspiracy theory)
"I Spent Three Years Talking to Boys. Here’s What I Found" (i.e. woke feminists are to blame for toxic masculinity)
So that's three strikes for me for the "paper of record."
posted by AlSweigart at 6:06 PM on December 13 [23 favorites]
Taylor Lorenz clarifies what she actually said about "joy."
I replied, regarding the online reaction to Thompson’s killing: "I do believe in the sanctity of life, and I think that's why I felt, along with so many other Americans, joy unfortunately, because…. “.posted by AlSweigart at 6:13 PM on December 13 [33 favorites]
Before I could utter another word, Piers Morgan interrupted me and began shouting at me, screaming that I was basically an evil and horrible because I felt “joy” in another person’s death, something I never said.
He replayed the clip again where he’s clearly cutting me off and, after a fellow panelist defended me, saying that Piers had, in fact, completely put words in my mouth, I finished my sentence:
“I feel joy because people like you, who are rich and powerful and on TV and have all the access to all the healthcare privileges in the world are finally being forced to pay attention to the barbaric healthcare system, that murders tens of thousands of innocent Americans, and that is what I feel joy in. I feel joy that people like you are forced to confront these systemic problems.”
You can watch exactly where Piers cuts me off and misrepresents what I said here.
The KFF study literally says "people like their health insurance, unless they have had to use it" and also "people like Medicare best".
posted by agentofselection at 6:24 PM on December 13 [24 favorites]
posted by agentofselection at 6:24 PM on December 13 [24 favorites]
This is the one they eventually had to turn the comments off for, right?
posted by gottabefunky at 6:24 PM on December 13 [3 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 6:24 PM on December 13 [3 favorites]
The NYT has to just be trolling now for clicks right?
That’s this guy’s job, yes.
I mean, there is no possible world in which you’re going to get the NYT endorsing any sort of radical act, let alone the assassination of a CEO, that’s just not what the NYT does, but posting Bret Stephens bait takes is pretty low-hanging fruit.
A more interesting angle is that the NYT online comment section seems more sympathetic to Mr. Mangione than I honestly would have guessed.
posted by atoxyl at 6:26 PM on December 13 [11 favorites]
That’s this guy’s job, yes.
I mean, there is no possible world in which you’re going to get the NYT endorsing any sort of radical act, let alone the assassination of a CEO, that’s just not what the NYT does, but posting Bret Stephens bait takes is pretty low-hanging fruit.
A more interesting angle is that the NYT online comment section seems more sympathetic to Mr. Mangione than I honestly would have guessed.
posted by atoxyl at 6:26 PM on December 13 [11 favorites]
No, I'm the real working class hero, fools!!!
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:29 PM on December 13 [2 favorites]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:29 PM on December 13 [2 favorites]
For a more reality-based take on this may I recommend A.R. Moxon's Peaceful Solutions, where he compares the murders of Jordan Neely and Brian Thompson.
posted by Rash at 6:35 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
posted by Rash at 6:35 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
The Jesse Welles song United Healthcare is going the rounds lately. Worth a listen.
posted by Peach at 6:54 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
posted by Peach at 6:54 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
Whatever. Luigi wasn't even covered by United Healthcare. He chose Brian Thompson because it was easy and would get his name out there due to public sentiment. Stanning the dude is just wretched.
And F Taylor Lorenz, who blocked me on X for suggesting that vaccines work.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:55 PM on December 13 [3 favorites]
And F Taylor Lorenz, who blocked me on X for suggesting that vaccines work.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:55 PM on December 13 [3 favorites]
There is so much triangulation and tripping over words trying to frame a position on this. Mangione (if he is found to be the shooter) doesn't have to be your hero, or a perfect political actor, or even coherent.
I remember when someone punched Richard Spencer, and a pacifist friend of mine got upset because it's wrong to punch people. I said "of course it is, but it is absolutely right and correct that Nazis get punched!" This whole mess doesn't need to be resolved with a happy ending for everyone, or an emotional rebalancing of some ethical calculus. It can remain a dilemma, and we can discuss the possibilities of ducks drinking milkshakes even if the original bird turned out to be terrible.
And if the shooter is imperfect in more ways than the ones that lead someone to plan and carry out murder in cold blood, surely they're someone who can at some point be reached. If they do have a dog's breakfast of a collection of political ideologies, a relationship with privilege that raises more concerns than it settles, or a history of problematic writings, then the solution is to treat them as a person rather than a symbol. We should be doing that anyway.
But wow, this piece is just a hair's breadth away from the "DiD yOu KnOw He PlAyEd AmOnGuS????" headlines about "assassination video games". Like a pet getting up from a nap, you just can't resist saying "Biiiiig stretch!"
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 6:56 PM on December 13 [19 favorites]
I remember when someone punched Richard Spencer, and a pacifist friend of mine got upset because it's wrong to punch people. I said "of course it is, but it is absolutely right and correct that Nazis get punched!" This whole mess doesn't need to be resolved with a happy ending for everyone, or an emotional rebalancing of some ethical calculus. It can remain a dilemma, and we can discuss the possibilities of ducks drinking milkshakes even if the original bird turned out to be terrible.
And if the shooter is imperfect in more ways than the ones that lead someone to plan and carry out murder in cold blood, surely they're someone who can at some point be reached. If they do have a dog's breakfast of a collection of political ideologies, a relationship with privilege that raises more concerns than it settles, or a history of problematic writings, then the solution is to treat them as a person rather than a symbol. We should be doing that anyway.
But wow, this piece is just a hair's breadth away from the "DiD yOu KnOw He PlAyEd AmOnGuS????" headlines about "assassination video games". Like a pet getting up from a nap, you just can't resist saying "Biiiiig stretch!"
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 6:56 PM on December 13 [19 favorites]
The Washington Post had the exact same odious talking points in an op-ed today (I wasn't going to link initially, and I encourage you not to if you can) regarding Warren's comment and the "actually, 80% of people rate their insurance plans as 'good' or excellent" -- are the lobbyists now pitching pre-written editorials in addition to press releases?
posted by Theiform at 6:56 PM on December 13 [6 favorites]
posted by Theiform at 6:56 PM on December 13 [6 favorites]
I understand that this is the 'paper of record' but must we discuss every stupid thing written by columnists employed by the NYT? I already know these columns will cause me to lose brain cells. i do not need to see this one in particular. I assume that Bret Stephens will write one of these bangers on a regular schedule and this one is no different. He'll write another idiocy next week. This column is beyond predictable and therefore unworthy of a FPP in my opinion. It's not even by a guest author, or a subject matter expert, or a celebrity in a different field, or an elected or a politician. This is an NYT opinion columnist and if you spend time reading this you deserve the headache. We don't need to do more than glance at the headline, in the case of Mr. Stephens. He's just done it again, because that's what his job is. I am pleading for AlSweigart and future FPP curators to ask themselves if these written works really deserve our attention.
posted by panhopticon at 7:11 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
posted by panhopticon at 7:11 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
And F Taylor Lorenz, who blocked me on X for suggesting that vaccines work.
Taylor Lorenz, one of the few people who still wears a mask in public, is antivax? Do you mind if I ask you to elaborate?
posted by ejs at 7:31 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
Taylor Lorenz, one of the few people who still wears a mask in public, is antivax? Do you mind if I ask you to elaborate?
posted by ejs at 7:31 PM on December 13 [10 favorites]
'He was just aYeah, this doesn't count for shit. Every monster comes from somewhere.farmbeekeeper's kid living out in ruralIowaAustria,'
posted by klanawa at 7:37 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
I understand that this is the 'paper of record' but must we discuss every stupid thing written by columnists employed by the NYT?
IMO if people are responding by canceling their subscriptions these FPPs have real value.
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:51 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
IMO if people are responding by canceling their subscriptions these FPPs have real value.
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:51 PM on December 13 [15 favorites]
The NYT has to just be trolling now for clicks right? What other possible explanation is there?
posted by Wretch729
Given the pattern of their journalism, and what they choose to cover and what they exclude, I would just assume this position is the core value and purpose of the paper. This is the paper for liberalism, and liberalism is an (un)dead ideology.
i feel like i could find an article from the archive lauding Elon Musk as a working class hero, if we looked.
What I cannot understand, except that I can, is how everyone has pretended not to notice that the NRA's constant marketing campaign of "we need 2A guns to kill powerful men who are out of control" has taken hold in the American political imagination. I mean, duh.
this is the "good guy with a gun" hypothesis. This is the solution that they have wanted us to wish for, it's just applied to a "Bad Guy in Charge of the Death Panels"
Americans have a gun culture. This was a marketing strategy to sell guns as a solution to problems; did we not think that having a culture would affect.... the culture?
posted by eustatic at 8:14 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
posted by Wretch729
Given the pattern of their journalism, and what they choose to cover and what they exclude, I would just assume this position is the core value and purpose of the paper. This is the paper for liberalism, and liberalism is an (un)dead ideology.
i feel like i could find an article from the archive lauding Elon Musk as a working class hero, if we looked.
What I cannot understand, except that I can, is how everyone has pretended not to notice that the NRA's constant marketing campaign of "we need 2A guns to kill powerful men who are out of control" has taken hold in the American political imagination. I mean, duh.
this is the "good guy with a gun" hypothesis. This is the solution that they have wanted us to wish for, it's just applied to a "Bad Guy in Charge of the Death Panels"
Americans have a gun culture. This was a marketing strategy to sell guns as a solution to problems; did we not think that having a culture would affect.... the culture?
posted by eustatic at 8:14 PM on December 13 [16 favorites]
The Washington Post had the exact same odious talking points in an op-ed today
That op-ed (by Megan McArdle) is definitely written by someone who's been very lucky in life.
Emphasis mine:
I am happy for McArdle that she hasn't known that kind of stress or tragedy. But that makes her an irrelevant voice on this subject.
posted by trig at 8:14 PM on December 13 [22 favorites]
That op-ed (by Megan McArdle) is definitely written by someone who's been very lucky in life.
Emphasis mine:
The U.S. health-care system is in many ways frustrating [...]The grinding stress of not being able to afford treatment in the first place, and the stress of getting treatment and then facing bills you cannot pay, and collections, and endless debt, can be debilitating. That stress - and the fear, and panic, and helplessness - go way beyond "annoyed" and "mad". Feeling "aghast" at the abstract notion of how much GDP goes to healthcare is very different than feeling like your heart's being pulled out of your chest when you see a medical bill. And the actual tragedies that result from not being able to get care, and from not even seeking care in the first place because you're justifiably scared of bills you have no ability to pay, aren't some figment of a disgruntled imagination.
People are annoyed that they can’t find doctors who take their insurance, mad that none of their physicians seem to know what the other doctors are doing, mad about “surprise billing” from specialists they didn’t know were out-of-network. They are mad about insurance companies refusing to cover treatments their doctors recommend and aghast at the monstrous expense of it all: In 2022, the United States spent 17 percent of its gross domestic product on health care.
I am happy for McArdle that she hasn't known that kind of stress or tragedy. But that makes her an irrelevant voice on this subject.
posted by trig at 8:14 PM on December 13 [22 favorites]
side note: I'm little surprised that no one has brought up the old talking point of "death panels."
Leftists would say "social murderer", but i'm not surprised no one has used that term.
Remember Death Panels?
I know Mangione would not, he was likely too young, but we had 10 years of this talking point that "intervening in medical care between the patient and doctor is evil and murder" from the right wing TV people. How can anyone be surprised that people still take it seriously?
Thomson was Mr Death Panel. Corporate media have manufactured the public support for his death, more than any institution.
posted by eustatic at 8:23 PM on December 13 [11 favorites]
Leftists would say "social murderer", but i'm not surprised no one has used that term.
Remember Death Panels?
I know Mangione would not, he was likely too young, but we had 10 years of this talking point that "intervening in medical care between the patient and doctor is evil and murder" from the right wing TV people. How can anyone be surprised that people still take it seriously?
Thomson was Mr Death Panel. Corporate media have manufactured the public support for his death, more than any institution.
posted by eustatic at 8:23 PM on December 13 [11 favorites]
there's a story about Abraham Lincoln and secretary Seward.
Lincoln asked Seward how many legs would that sheep have if you counted its tail as a leg.
five.
wrong, four just because you count a tail as a leg doesn't make it so.
posted by clavdivs at 8:53 PM on December 13 [11 favorites]
Lincoln asked Seward how many legs would that sheep have if you counted its tail as a leg.
five.
wrong, four just because you count a tail as a leg doesn't make it so.
posted by clavdivs at 8:53 PM on December 13 [11 favorites]
Doctors: make it illegal to prescribe antibiotics without 12 years of education, lobby against opening new medical schools, make 10-20x median income upon graduation, make it illegal to get more than a few 100k even if their gross incompetence maims you for life, encourage unnecessary surgeries with no evidence of efficiency
Hospitals: make it illegal to open up new hospitals without permission of existing hospitals, refuses to tell you how much it costs before treating you, charges 100 bucks for a tylenol, prescribe women fentanyl then report them for testing positive for fentanyl
Insurance companies make below-average profits compared to other sectors. Health care must always be rationed in some way because demand is infinite when faced with death and there is always someone ready to take your money for a 1% chance of a cure. If its not health insurance companies, its government-run hospitals refusing to run a CT scan and sending you home to die. The idea that they are some uniquely evil industry "bankrupting and brutalizing their fellow citizens" requires some justification before you start blasting people.
The tragic thing is there is so much possibility for a better system. Instead, a murder has made the system more defensive while empowering the most bloodlusting and uninformed voices.
posted by hermanubis at 9:23 PM on December 13 [9 favorites]
Hospitals: make it illegal to open up new hospitals without permission of existing hospitals, refuses to tell you how much it costs before treating you, charges 100 bucks for a tylenol, prescribe women fentanyl then report them for testing positive for fentanyl
Insurance companies make below-average profits compared to other sectors. Health care must always be rationed in some way because demand is infinite when faced with death and there is always someone ready to take your money for a 1% chance of a cure. If its not health insurance companies, its government-run hospitals refusing to run a CT scan and sending you home to die. The idea that they are some uniquely evil industry "bankrupting and brutalizing their fellow citizens" requires some justification before you start blasting people.
The tragic thing is there is so much possibility for a better system. Instead, a murder has made the system more defensive while empowering the most bloodlusting and uninformed voices.
posted by hermanubis at 9:23 PM on December 13 [9 favorites]
make 10-20x median income upon graduation
Doctors miss out on four extra years of income after undergrad, run up a few $100k in debt, and work 80hrs/wk for like $70k for 3-10 years after graduation. Then they can start making a ton of money (some specialties 4x as much as others but to be fair this correlates with the training investment).
It’s absolutely true that insurance is only part of the problem, and also that the medical profession is part of the problem, but it’s not as simple as your framing, either. And the thing about insurance is it’s just something where people have a moral sense that it has no business being a for-profit industry.
posted by atoxyl at 9:33 PM on December 13 [23 favorites]
Doctors miss out on four extra years of income after undergrad, run up a few $100k in debt, and work 80hrs/wk for like $70k for 3-10 years after graduation. Then they can start making a ton of money (some specialties 4x as much as others but to be fair this correlates with the training investment).
It’s absolutely true that insurance is only part of the problem, and also that the medical profession is part of the problem, but it’s not as simple as your framing, either. And the thing about insurance is it’s just something where people have a moral sense that it has no business being a for-profit industry.
posted by atoxyl at 9:33 PM on December 13 [23 favorites]
Insurance companies make below-average profits compared to other sectors.
If they are making below average profits part of the reason is surely that they are spending a lot of money on administration and handling (pre-approving (or not), deciding to approve or deny claims, deciding how much of each claim to cover etc. etc.). Death panels don't just run themselves. Why not just approve anything you're pretty isnt actually fraud and you scale back to a couole of dozen claims investigators/assessors.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:08 PM on December 13 [6 favorites]
If they are making below average profits part of the reason is surely that they are spending a lot of money on administration and handling (pre-approving (or not), deciding to approve or deny claims, deciding how much of each claim to cover etc. etc.). Death panels don't just run themselves. Why not just approve anything you're pretty isnt actually fraud and you scale back to a couole of dozen claims investigators/assessors.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:08 PM on December 13 [6 favorites]
Brian Thompson, the United Healthcare chief executive [...] was just a farm kid living out in rural Iowa,'
And he got tired of only getting around $600 a head for his cows from the slaughterhouse.
But when he graduated from college, he thought to himself: 'Wait a minute! I know some places where they get a lot more per head than that!'
posted by jamjam at 10:34 PM on December 13 [12 favorites]
And he got tired of only getting around $600 a head for his cows from the slaughterhouse.
But when he graduated from college, he thought to himself: 'Wait a minute! I know some places where they get a lot more per head than that!'
posted by jamjam at 10:34 PM on December 13 [12 favorites]
Insurance companies make below-average profits compared to other sectors.
If it's not less than zero, it's still an abomination. This is a part of the process that does not need to extract money. It's like if I stole 5% of every paycheck you earned. It's only 5%! But I shouldn't be involved or taking any money, so 5% is a moral crime. 0.5% would be. 0.00005% would be.
(And it isn't just profits, either. There are a lot of people working for insurance companies who take home some kind of pay. Pay which is an expense to the company, counting against profits. So an insurance company could take $100m from "customers", pay for $50m of medical care, pay their staff $20m, and the C suite pockets $30m. No profits! How can they be evil, it's not even for profit?
None of them should be here, none of them should be extracting a single cent. Any money they take is being taken away from being spent on actual healthcare.)
posted by Dysk at 11:22 PM on December 13 [34 favorites]
If it's not less than zero, it's still an abomination. This is a part of the process that does not need to extract money. It's like if I stole 5% of every paycheck you earned. It's only 5%! But I shouldn't be involved or taking any money, so 5% is a moral crime. 0.5% would be. 0.00005% would be.
(And it isn't just profits, either. There are a lot of people working for insurance companies who take home some kind of pay. Pay which is an expense to the company, counting against profits. So an insurance company could take $100m from "customers", pay for $50m of medical care, pay their staff $20m, and the C suite pockets $30m. No profits! How can they be evil, it's not even for profit?
None of them should be here, none of them should be extracting a single cent. Any money they take is being taken away from being spent on actual healthcare.)
posted by Dysk at 11:22 PM on December 13 [34 favorites]
> make 10-20x median income upon graduation
I've been seeing a lot of this sentiment in the discourse, and it seems like an attempt to turn the working classes against each other as a distraction from the rent-seeking capitalists.
If I pay $2000 in insurance premiums, I'm not upset that the doctor who actually treats me gets $200 instead of a lower amount. I'm upset about the much bigger amount going to hospital owners, ambulance owners, pharma patent owners, and the insurance staff and hospital staff negotiating against each other.
posted by Phssthpok at 11:24 PM on December 13 [22 favorites]
I've been seeing a lot of this sentiment in the discourse, and it seems like an attempt to turn the working classes against each other as a distraction from the rent-seeking capitalists.
If I pay $2000 in insurance premiums, I'm not upset that the doctor who actually treats me gets $200 instead of a lower amount. I'm upset about the much bigger amount going to hospital owners, ambulance owners, pharma patent owners, and the insurance staff and hospital staff negotiating against each other.
posted by Phssthpok at 11:24 PM on December 13 [22 favorites]
(Even if the insurance companies were absolute martyrs, working for less than minimum wage, subsisting on bread and water, the money spent on that bread and water shouldn't be, it should have gone to paying for healthcare instead. You don't need the insurance layer at all, they do nothing but gatekeep care. They are inherently wasteful regardless of their practices.)
posted by Dysk at 11:54 PM on December 13 [20 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:54 PM on December 13 [20 favorites]
There are two types of Americans:
- Those who have been screwed by the American healthcare system.
- Those who haven't been screwed by the American healthcare system yet.
a 2023 survey from the nonpartisan health policy research institute KFF found that 81 percent of insured adults gave their health insurance plans a rating of “excellent” or “good.”
I'm disappointed by how many media stories are citing this quote from the KFF study as a defense of the US private healthcare system, or as proof that most Americans prefer it and won't likely be persuaded to change it.
Even before I read the study, it seemed obvious to me that if you're healthy, employed, and can afford (or employer pays for) healthcare insurance, and you haven't required much more than basic preventative healthcare.... you probably are satisfied with your healthcare. And young healthy humans are not the best at anticipating their future healthcare needs. This pretty much describes most people, yes?
Having now looked at the survey results, these are more revealing:
Across Coverage Type, Adults With Fair Or Poor Physical Health Are More Likely To Rate Their Insurance Negatively
About Six In Ten Insured Adults Say They Have Had A Problem With Their Health Insurance In The Past Year
... so, high approval ratings, until you actually need healthcare.
Anyway, I don't think that nuts gunning down American healthcare CEOs is justified or useful, but ffs this doesn't also mean that the US healthcare system isn't deeply flawed or immoral.
I hope my fellow Canadians take a closer look here, and then will stop letting our current system continue to crumble.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:54 AM on December 14 [8 favorites]
I'm disappointed by how many media stories are citing this quote from the KFF study as a defense of the US private healthcare system, or as proof that most Americans prefer it and won't likely be persuaded to change it.
Even before I read the study, it seemed obvious to me that if you're healthy, employed, and can afford (or employer pays for) healthcare insurance, and you haven't required much more than basic preventative healthcare.... you probably are satisfied with your healthcare. And young healthy humans are not the best at anticipating their future healthcare needs. This pretty much describes most people, yes?
Having now looked at the survey results, these are more revealing:
Across Coverage Type, Adults With Fair Or Poor Physical Health Are More Likely To Rate Their Insurance Negatively
About Six In Ten Insured Adults Say They Have Had A Problem With Their Health Insurance In The Past Year
... so, high approval ratings, until you actually need healthcare.
Anyway, I don't think that nuts gunning down American healthcare CEOs is justified or useful, but ffs this doesn't also mean that the US healthcare system isn't deeply flawed or immoral.
I hope my fellow Canadians take a closer look here, and then will stop letting our current system continue to crumble.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:54 AM on December 14 [8 favorites]
The NYT also gave space (ungated) to Andrew Witty (CEO of UHG, parent company of UnitedHealth) to sing the praises of the company generally and of Thompson personally.
"We know the health system does not work as well as it should, and we understand people’s frustrations with it. No one would design a system like the one we have. And no one did. It’s a patchwork built over decades. Our mission is to help make it work better... We understand and share the desire to build a health care system that works better for everyone. That is the purpose of our organization."
The instructions on cancelling subscriptions are in the original post.
posted by deeker at 2:49 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
"We know the health system does not work as well as it should, and we understand people’s frustrations with it. No one would design a system like the one we have. And no one did. It’s a patchwork built over decades. Our mission is to help make it work better... We understand and share the desire to build a health care system that works better for everyone. That is the purpose of our organization."
The instructions on cancelling subscriptions are in the original post.
posted by deeker at 2:49 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
What I believe but can't prove: we can't/won't have universal healthcare because of caste. Caste is the unspoken taboo about U.S. society, that there are haves and havenots, and the haves have (sorry) no incentive to "step down" to universal healthcare--at least that's how they'd see it. And the truly rich, the ones who really pull the levers of power, well why would they voluntarily be in the same group as poors?
People don't want to change because they like standing on the back of others. See le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk from Omelas" and that's a pretty good symbol of American healthcare: the poors suffer so that the rich can live the good life.
posted by zardoz at 3:46 AM on December 14 [6 favorites]
People don't want to change because they like standing on the back of others. See le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk from Omelas" and that's a pretty good symbol of American healthcare: the poors suffer so that the rich can live the good life.
posted by zardoz at 3:46 AM on December 14 [6 favorites]
Insurance companies make below-average profits compared to other sectors.
What other sectors? Lately all industries that actually make or do things are getting hurt because we've switched over to an extremely extractive financialized world where the best thing you can do is just be part of the money making money world rather than actually making things or providing services to make money. There is a reason almost all industries are now becoming lenders and data brokers. It's the carcinization of the economy as capital starts eating itself like crabs in a bucket.
posted by srboisvert at 4:19 AM on December 14 [19 favorites]
What other sectors? Lately all industries that actually make or do things are getting hurt because we've switched over to an extremely extractive financialized world where the best thing you can do is just be part of the money making money world rather than actually making things or providing services to make money. There is a reason almost all industries are now becoming lenders and data brokers. It's the carcinization of the economy as capital starts eating itself like crabs in a bucket.
posted by srboisvert at 4:19 AM on December 14 [19 favorites]
I wonder how much advertising revenue the NYT get from the medical sector and whether this has any influence on their editorial line.
posted by Dr Ew at 4:38 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr Ew at 4:38 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
we can't/won't have universal healthcare because of caste.
Looking from outside, it's my view that Americans value personal freedom, hate gummint and their claim to fairness is that the US ways of doing things (not just healthcare) provides choice and opportunity, and it's up to the individual to choose how and how much they put towards their own health.
Which is maybe just a pretty slip-cover on the haves' preference for the de facto caste system.
My Canadian bias for universal healthcare comes out of:
1) it's moral and just for a wealthy country to do this
2) it's my understanding that single-payer produces better outcomes at lower overall cost
3) from what I've seen - ourselves, family, friends - it works pretty good
Room for improvement, of course:
- electronic record sharing! it's 2024 already
- staffing levels, especially doctors, isn't keeping up with apparent demand
Unfortunately, the Canadian single-payer system is being allowed to rot, and a private second system is creeping in.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:44 AM on December 14 [5 favorites]
Looking from outside, it's my view that Americans value personal freedom, hate gummint and their claim to fairness is that the US ways of doing things (not just healthcare) provides choice and opportunity, and it's up to the individual to choose how and how much they put towards their own health.
Which is maybe just a pretty slip-cover on the haves' preference for the de facto caste system.
My Canadian bias for universal healthcare comes out of:
1) it's moral and just for a wealthy country to do this
2) it's my understanding that single-payer produces better outcomes at lower overall cost
3) from what I've seen - ourselves, family, friends - it works pretty good
Room for improvement, of course:
- electronic record sharing! it's 2024 already
- staffing levels, especially doctors, isn't keeping up with apparent demand
Unfortunately, the Canadian single-payer system is being allowed to rot, and a private second system is creeping in.
posted by Artful Codger at 4:44 AM on December 14 [5 favorites]
In other news, US mainstream news outlets continue to glorify people who exploit others... legally. This is just about a priori knowledge at this point.
If you're looking for the truth in just about any matter, skip the New York Times.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 5:19 AM on December 14 [5 favorites]
If you're looking for the truth in just about any matter, skip the New York Times.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 5:19 AM on December 14 [5 favorites]
I can rework this paragraph:
But if Mangione’s personal story (at least what we know of it so far) is supposed to serve as some sort of parable, it isn’t one that "progressives" (replace with "poors") should take comfort in.
The rest of the paragraph is, "you shouldn't care about others if it doesn't directly effect you."
As for the suggestion that Thompson’s murder should be an occasion to discuss America’s supposed rage
supposed rage??? I see rage of red, crimson skies too...nothing blue. And I think to myself, what a horrible world
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:41 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
But if Mangione’s personal story (at least what we know of it so far) is supposed to serve as some sort of parable, it isn’t one that "progressives" (replace with "poors") should take comfort in.
The rest of the paragraph is, "you shouldn't care about others if it doesn't directly effect you."
As for the suggestion that Thompson’s murder should be an occasion to discuss America’s supposed rage
supposed rage??? I see rage of red, crimson skies too...nothing blue. And I think to myself, what a horrible world
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:41 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
I'm not American and have never lived in America so I found this video by a working therapist regards Medical insurance companies and how they screw over EVERYONE WORKING WITH THEM very eye opening.
The Concept of ''clawback' is especially horrifying because it seems essentially designed to never pay anyone (except the insurance company) and leave the people who should receive monies drowning in Kafkaesque paperwork and an administrative run-around until they either give up or die.
Why the UHC CEO Shooting Matters to the Neurodivergent: 22:20 tells what to do about it. 27 minute YouTube Link
Two years ago Brian David Gilbert made a 30 minute YouTube video on A terrible guide to the terrible terminology of U.S. Health Insurance
and how it's designed to confuse, derail and basically make everyone - except the insurance companies - despondent and bankrupt. Warning. Bleak humour.
posted by Faintdreams at 5:52 AM on December 14 [12 favorites]
The Concept of ''clawback' is especially horrifying because it seems essentially designed to never pay anyone (except the insurance company) and leave the people who should receive monies drowning in Kafkaesque paperwork and an administrative run-around until they either give up or die.
Why the UHC CEO Shooting Matters to the Neurodivergent: 22:20 tells what to do about it. 27 minute YouTube Link
Two years ago Brian David Gilbert made a 30 minute YouTube video on A terrible guide to the terrible terminology of U.S. Health Insurance
and how it's designed to confuse, derail and basically make everyone - except the insurance companies - despondent and bankrupt. Warning. Bleak humour.
posted by Faintdreams at 5:52 AM on December 14 [12 favorites]
It doesn't bear full responsibility but the NYT has done a lot of harm to our democracy. If you had told someone even a decade ago that this would happen they would have laughed in your face.
posted by tommasz at 6:24 AM on December 14 [7 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 6:24 AM on December 14 [7 favorites]
(Even if the insurance companies were absolute martyrs, working for less than minimum wage, subsisting on bread and water, the money spent on that bread and water shouldn't be, it should have gone to paying for healthcare instead. You don't need the insurance layer at all, they do nothing but gatekeep care. They are inherently wasteful regardless of their practices.)
OK so no, not totally true. Were it not for the insurance companies negotiating on behalf of large groups of people, saying "This and no more is what will be paid for a given procedure", then nothing would stop hospital corporations from jacking up the prices. You wouldn't want to negotiate with the hospital on your own.
Now, nothing is saying the government couldn't do this better, on behalf of everyone in America, and nobody is going to argue that denying people care is good, or that the insurance industry isn't extracting way too much for this service, but there is in fact a point to be made that the insurance company is in fact providing a valuable service through this negotiation. Yes, I'd rather have single-payer health care and the profit motive taken entirely out of hospitals, but insurance companies, though it pains me to say it, are NOT "inherently wasteful" at all.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:31 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
OK so no, not totally true. Were it not for the insurance companies negotiating on behalf of large groups of people, saying "This and no more is what will be paid for a given procedure", then nothing would stop hospital corporations from jacking up the prices. You wouldn't want to negotiate with the hospital on your own.
Now, nothing is saying the government couldn't do this better, on behalf of everyone in America, and nobody is going to argue that denying people care is good, or that the insurance industry isn't extracting way too much for this service, but there is in fact a point to be made that the insurance company is in fact providing a valuable service through this negotiation. Yes, I'd rather have single-payer health care and the profit motive taken entirely out of hospitals, but insurance companies, though it pains me to say it, are NOT "inherently wasteful" at all.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:31 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
I remember using the term "ragebait" for the NYT twice on the same day
This has to be the explanation: hate clicks are worth the same as like clicks, and hate is a very powerful emotion. People get upset when some TikTok idiot dumps a bunch of food in a pan as a pretend reciepe, then they click more. Same thing, just stupider.
posted by netowl at 6:34 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
This has to be the explanation: hate clicks are worth the same as like clicks, and hate is a very powerful emotion. People get upset when some TikTok idiot dumps a bunch of food in a pan as a pretend reciepe, then they click more. Same thing, just stupider.
posted by netowl at 6:34 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
I wish this discussion were better connected eith how bad the health industry actually is.
United Health isn't an insurer! They are EVERYTHING. When you pay your doctor - you are paying unitedhealth! (They are the world's largest employer of doctors.) Filling a prescription? Same.
This writeup from matt stoller lays out how bad things actually are: link. Liz Warren and Josh Hawley (yes, really! that is how bad it is!) are teaming up on legislation to help, but there is so much work today. It's bad.
posted by billjings at 6:40 AM on December 14 [8 favorites]
United Health isn't an insurer! They are EVERYTHING. When you pay your doctor - you are paying unitedhealth! (They are the world's largest employer of doctors.) Filling a prescription? Same.
This writeup from matt stoller lays out how bad things actually are: link. Liz Warren and Josh Hawley (yes, really! that is how bad it is!) are teaming up on legislation to help, but there is so much work today. It's bad.
posted by billjings at 6:40 AM on December 14 [8 favorites]
> "I have good healthcare. It costs a $1000 a month
Jesus, I wish.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:45 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
Jesus, I wish.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:45 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
Remember: this is not a culture war, this is a class war.
posted by my-username at 6:53 AM on December 14 [10 favorites]
posted by my-username at 6:53 AM on December 14 [10 favorites]
This all reminds me of the standing ovation Will Smith got after slapping Kevin Hart at the Oscars. It was interesting for a few hours. The killing deed is done and rather than recruit assassins for all CEOs and lose support, it should be a civil moment to steer the conversation to jacked-up prices and the hope of non-profit insurance and health services, and price caps on drugs. This is an uphill battle in the billionaire-worshiping era we live in, who are supported by a religious voting bloc that prefers faith healing and thinks the government is run by child killers. Recall that Medicare-for-all is popular, except among seniors who love it so much they don't want to water it down. Most voters also turn out to keep their insurance options open when those options are threatened. The trick is to avoid voodoo economics about healthcare as if each piece of it is reliable to changes. A few facts have emerged over the years: a small percentage of chronic patients costs more than half of the entire system; talented doctors won't work for average wages, but will retire or go private; drugs will still be offered at half-price because their profit margin is so enormous and creating scarcity was a con-job anyway. The bottom line is that costly interventions will always need to be disturbingly rationed for old age and terminal illness to allow free or subsidized preventive screenings and early interventions, which is not the current model for profit maximization. A glimmer of hope is that AI can be trained to assist in treating disease after collecting enough data from nurses and technicians.
posted by Brian B. at 8:09 AM on December 14
posted by Brian B. at 8:09 AM on December 14
FWIW, it was Chris Rock, not Kevin Hart.
posted by FallibleHuman at 8:27 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
posted by FallibleHuman at 8:27 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
Thanks, FallibleHuman, for the correction.
posted by Brian B. at 8:34 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 8:34 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
You can’t overlook the health insurance industry contribution in the form of delays to care and extra stress and hassle for the time in your life that you’re feeling most depleted physically.
Still, I think some underestimate the interest of society’s decision makers in ensuring care is broadly available. Even if you are so unimaginably wealthy that you can hire your own family doctor or internist, that won’t save your life when you need the cardiac cath lab. Lots of medical options only exist if you ensure the bills of a bunch of non-wealthy people are somewhat covered in the low likelihood event that they need that certain kind of care.
Even if their own medical needs were not affected, people are the engine of our economy, and anything that decreases life expectancy will also reduce our overall economic output. An index fund (or investment in 95% of individual companies) is a bet on the country’s performance overall, and even care for retirees makes it more likely that their younger family members will perform at a higher level. Don’t even get me started on how much we stand to lose as a society if childhood vaccination rates fall.
Of course, the self-interest above only works if the people in charge are rational and understand how the world works and have a stake in long-term performance.
posted by puffinaria at 8:41 AM on December 14
Still, I think some underestimate the interest of society’s decision makers in ensuring care is broadly available. Even if you are so unimaginably wealthy that you can hire your own family doctor or internist, that won’t save your life when you need the cardiac cath lab. Lots of medical options only exist if you ensure the bills of a bunch of non-wealthy people are somewhat covered in the low likelihood event that they need that certain kind of care.
Even if their own medical needs were not affected, people are the engine of our economy, and anything that decreases life expectancy will also reduce our overall economic output. An index fund (or investment in 95% of individual companies) is a bet on the country’s performance overall, and even care for retirees makes it more likely that their younger family members will perform at a higher level. Don’t even get me started on how much we stand to lose as a society if childhood vaccination rates fall.
Of course, the self-interest above only works if the people in charge are rational and understand how the world works and have a stake in long-term performance.
posted by puffinaria at 8:41 AM on December 14
talented doctors won't work for average wages, but will retire or go private
In a single payer system there's no option to go private. Theres also no particular reason talented doctors would have to work for average wages.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:44 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
In a single payer system there's no option to go private. Theres also no particular reason talented doctors would have to work for average wages.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:44 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
It wasn’t Kevin Hart, btw. It was Meryl Streep.
posted by chasing at 8:46 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
posted by chasing at 8:46 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
Insurance companies make below-average profits compared to other sectors. Health care must always be rationed in some way because demand is infinite when faced with death and there is always someone ready to take your money for a 1% chance of a cure.
This seems to be one of the latest hits from the talking points factory. I don't think many people are bothered by insurance refusing to cover an expensive procedure on an 85-year-old who probably won't survive it anyway. No one is thinking about those cases. What annoys ordinary people, like me, the most average of Joes, is that my wife had to spend four hours on the phone this month and submit extra paperwork to get our insurance to cover a medication prescribed by her doctor and known to be effect for her condition. That's not the first time we've had to do that, and it won't be the last, and we don't always win. They eventually agreed, so now we're only paying like $95 a month instead of $1500, which honestly still sucks, but we can at least manage it. Last year my doctor ordered an MRI for me because I have a rare genetic disorder that predisposes me to certain tumors. My in-network doctor ordered it, I had it done at an in-network hospital, and then got the delightful surprise of a $1500 bill afterward. Yay.
So the issue isn't "oh, no, I can't have a Hail Mary procedure that almost certainly won't help anyway." The issue is we have to fight our insurance companies repeatedly to get them to cover obvious, standard care things.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:50 AM on December 14 [23 favorites]
This seems to be one of the latest hits from the talking points factory. I don't think many people are bothered by insurance refusing to cover an expensive procedure on an 85-year-old who probably won't survive it anyway. No one is thinking about those cases. What annoys ordinary people, like me, the most average of Joes, is that my wife had to spend four hours on the phone this month and submit extra paperwork to get our insurance to cover a medication prescribed by her doctor and known to be effect for her condition. That's not the first time we've had to do that, and it won't be the last, and we don't always win. They eventually agreed, so now we're only paying like $95 a month instead of $1500, which honestly still sucks, but we can at least manage it. Last year my doctor ordered an MRI for me because I have a rare genetic disorder that predisposes me to certain tumors. My in-network doctor ordered it, I had it done at an in-network hospital, and then got the delightful surprise of a $1500 bill afterward. Yay.
So the issue isn't "oh, no, I can't have a Hail Mary procedure that almost certainly won't help anyway." The issue is we have to fight our insurance companies repeatedly to get them to cover obvious, standard care things.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:50 AM on December 14 [23 favorites]
The New York Times stopped being a "liberal newspaper" quite a while ago. They seem to have lost complete touch with their traditional liberal reader base. I don't know why these sorts of articles keep surprising their confused audience.
posted by pthomas745 at 8:57 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
posted by pthomas745 at 8:57 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
So I guess the point is that they're both class traitors then?
posted by Naberius at 8:58 AM on December 14 [4 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 8:58 AM on December 14 [4 favorites]
The newsrooms haven’t really changed that much. It’s the opinion sections that have to compete with Twitter and Facebook. They have made the calculation that instead of providing worthwhile opinion sections, they should just make clickbait. Some of the dumbest things I have ever read have appeared in the vaunted pages of NYT or WaPo. They’re basically well-written 4chan posts.
posted by Room 101 at 9:05 AM on December 14 [5 favorites]
posted by Room 101 at 9:05 AM on December 14 [5 favorites]
When you pay your doctor - you are paying unitedhealth! (They are the world's largest employer of doctors.)
Google is suggesting they employ about 90,000 doctors. UK NHS has about 140,000.
posted by biffa at 9:05 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
Google is suggesting they employ about 90,000 doctors. UK NHS has about 140,000.
posted by biffa at 9:05 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
Yes, I'd rather have single-payer health care and the profit motive taken entirely out of hospitals, but insurance companies, though it pains me to say it, are NOT "inherently wasteful" at all.
Didn't you once self-identify as communist?
posted by ginger.beef at 9:09 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
Didn't you once self-identify as communist?
posted by ginger.beef at 9:09 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
If anyone else is about to cancel their NYT cooking subscription but wants to save some recipes first and found that it won’t send a PDF to any of your pdf related apps despite saying it is here’s what’s working for me:
Select print
Look at the little send icon at the top
Send the print version to whatever app you want, I’m choosing “Books” because I already have a bunch of recipes there
Guess I’m getting $5 a month back once I finish moving these!
posted by lepus at 9:15 AM on December 14
Select print
Look at the little send icon at the top
Send the print version to whatever app you want, I’m choosing “Books” because I already have a bunch of recipes there
Guess I’m getting $5 a month back once I finish moving these!
posted by lepus at 9:15 AM on December 14
I wish I could provide a link, but I have no idea how this came to me. Someone wrote that the founding principles for the US healthcare system were directly based on the bestselling racist publication of a German immigrant to the US, who imagined that if only black folks could be denied healthcare, they would die out in a few generations. This was way before Hitler, it probably inspired Hitler.
I probably heard it in a podcast discussing the support for Mangione.
Personally, I don't approve of assassination, but it is pretty obvious that something is very wrong in the US, and not only healthcare.
posted by mumimor at 9:17 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
I probably heard it in a podcast discussing the support for Mangione.
Personally, I don't approve of assassination, but it is pretty obvious that something is very wrong in the US, and not only healthcare.
posted by mumimor at 9:17 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
For a moment I had my names confused and though the author was the Bret from Poison.
posted by snofoam at 9:20 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 9:20 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
Yes, I'd rather have single-payer health care and the profit motive taken entirely out of hospitals, but insurance companies, though it pains me to say it, are NOT "inherently wasteful" at all.
For the billionth time, there are a lot of countries in the world with a lot of different models for how to do health insurance much much much much much much better than the US does.
Whether or not insurance companies in the abstract play an important role, the way that role is played in the US is insane, and the US insurance companies are very clearly not negotiating effectively if the "best" they can do is plans that cost people hundreds or thousands of US dollars a month (and still often result in denied coverage).
Do you know how much I, living outside the US in a relatively high cost of living country, pay each month for top-tier health insurance? Less than $40. Yes, healthcare here is partly funded by payroll taxes - but they're comparable to US payroll tax rates, and being income-based they're progressively assessed. The low rates are because of a very heavily regulated insurance industry - the opposite of trusting insurance companies to act in their customers' interests instead of their own profit.
posted by trig at 9:24 AM on December 14 [9 favorites]
For the billionth time, there are a lot of countries in the world with a lot of different models for how to do health insurance much much much much much much better than the US does.
Whether or not insurance companies in the abstract play an important role, the way that role is played in the US is insane, and the US insurance companies are very clearly not negotiating effectively if the "best" they can do is plans that cost people hundreds or thousands of US dollars a month (and still often result in denied coverage).
Do you know how much I, living outside the US in a relatively high cost of living country, pay each month for top-tier health insurance? Less than $40. Yes, healthcare here is partly funded by payroll taxes - but they're comparable to US payroll tax rates, and being income-based they're progressively assessed. The low rates are because of a very heavily regulated insurance industry - the opposite of trusting insurance companies to act in their customers' interests instead of their own profit.
posted by trig at 9:24 AM on December 14 [9 favorites]
In a single payer system there's no option to go private. There's also no particular reason talented doctors would have to work for average wages.
This argument is the essential part of the Big Lie that keeps the terrible US system in place. I live in Spain, where I have full single-payer coverage. I have no costs and no paperwork. All prescriptions are free. Some home care is included (especially post-op). I also get free access to public nursing homes, albeit with a waiting list that can be up to one year.
Almost all the best doctors work for the public single-payer system, which because of its sheer size has the best hospitals and equipment, and does the research that brings prestige. The doctors who want to make more money work part-time for the public system and part-time for their own private practice.
I also pay for two private insurances. One costs me about $100/month, with a guarantee that my premiums will not increase above inflation. It covers in-network at 100% with no copays and no deductibles. It also reimburses me 80% of my costs for out-of-network doctors.
My other insurance charges me about $400/month for gold-plated coverage, as a 60-year-old smoker. That premium has tripled in the last 5 years. They hired a bunch of consultants from the US who convinced them to raise the premiums every year after age 55 because they want to kick people off the gold-plated policy onto one with more limits as they get old. I only keep it because they provide full coverage in the US (through United Healthcare, ugh), where I go a lot to take care of my aging parents. At some point I'll wind up cancelling it.
I use the private insurance to get immediate appointments with the specialists of my choice. When the top digestive specialist where I live was booked solid for two months through the public system, I was able to get an appointment in a couple of days at his private practice with my insurance. Everyone here agrees though, that the best quality care for something serious is at the public hospitals.
Americans are brainwashed into thinking that the only options are their current abusive system or a totalitarian lack of choice. Don't believe the propaganda.
posted by fuzz at 9:34 AM on December 14 [27 favorites]
This argument is the essential part of the Big Lie that keeps the terrible US system in place. I live in Spain, where I have full single-payer coverage. I have no costs and no paperwork. All prescriptions are free. Some home care is included (especially post-op). I also get free access to public nursing homes, albeit with a waiting list that can be up to one year.
Almost all the best doctors work for the public single-payer system, which because of its sheer size has the best hospitals and equipment, and does the research that brings prestige. The doctors who want to make more money work part-time for the public system and part-time for their own private practice.
I also pay for two private insurances. One costs me about $100/month, with a guarantee that my premiums will not increase above inflation. It covers in-network at 100% with no copays and no deductibles. It also reimburses me 80% of my costs for out-of-network doctors.
My other insurance charges me about $400/month for gold-plated coverage, as a 60-year-old smoker. That premium has tripled in the last 5 years. They hired a bunch of consultants from the US who convinced them to raise the premiums every year after age 55 because they want to kick people off the gold-plated policy onto one with more limits as they get old. I only keep it because they provide full coverage in the US (through United Healthcare, ugh), where I go a lot to take care of my aging parents. At some point I'll wind up cancelling it.
I use the private insurance to get immediate appointments with the specialists of my choice. When the top digestive specialist where I live was booked solid for two months through the public system, I was able to get an appointment in a couple of days at his private practice with my insurance. Everyone here agrees though, that the best quality care for something serious is at the public hospitals.
Americans are brainwashed into thinking that the only options are their current abusive system or a totalitarian lack of choice. Don't believe the propaganda.
posted by fuzz at 9:34 AM on December 14 [27 favorites]
People subscribe to the NYT for the recipes and Connections--the rest is just ragebait from the hot take factory.
posted by betweenthebars at 9:34 AM on December 14
posted by betweenthebars at 9:34 AM on December 14
A single CEO of a gigantic health care corporation is just a cog in the monstrous spralling USA health care system. Which isn't to say his decisions were not despicable in many cases and that he did not deserve to be killed, but in the corporate system, he was big cog but just a cog.
What to do about an essential but out of control system of many many insanely huge cogs?
posted by sammyo at 9:45 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
What to do about an essential but out of control system of many many insanely huge cogs?
posted by sammyo at 9:45 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
wish I could provide a link, but I have no idea how this came to me. Someone wrote that the founding principles for the US healthcare system were directly based on the bestselling racist publication of a German immigrant to the US, who imagined that if only black folks could be denied healthcare, they would die out in a few generations. This was way before Hitler, it probably inspired Hitler.
What “founding principles for the US healthcare system” are we talking about here? I don’t think the US health insurance system had a lot of master planning until the government got involved postwar? The conventional history says private health insurance plans as we know them go back to hospital insurance plans that began to be offered in the 20s, and that the norm of employers sponsoring insurance was established in the 40s as wartime wage caps made companies start offering various benefits to attract talent.
The AMA did, at multiple turns, lobby against a universal system, which is one reason it’s not wrong to say that doctors deserve some of the blame historically.
posted by atoxyl at 10:06 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
What “founding principles for the US healthcare system” are we talking about here? I don’t think the US health insurance system had a lot of master planning until the government got involved postwar? The conventional history says private health insurance plans as we know them go back to hospital insurance plans that began to be offered in the 20s, and that the norm of employers sponsoring insurance was established in the 40s as wartime wage caps made companies start offering various benefits to attract talent.
The AMA did, at multiple turns, lobby against a universal system, which is one reason it’s not wrong to say that doctors deserve some of the blame historically.
posted by atoxyl at 10:06 AM on December 14 [2 favorites]
What to do about an essential but out of control system of many many insanely huge cogs
If you take enough cogs out of a machine it falls apart
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:36 AM on December 14 [6 favorites]
If you take enough cogs out of a machine it falls apart
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:36 AM on December 14 [6 favorites]
I went to see this op-ed on the NYT page today and it appears to have been quietly removed. Hilarious. Witty's op-ed has also been buried beneath a new batch of essays, and they seem to really be pushing (both with placement and a flashing graphic) a piece comparing Rupert Murdoch to the dad in Succession.
Almost like they're saying here, look at *this* rich guy, focus your attention over here now please!! Forget about the rest (oh and btw the Unabomber is bad mmkay, that's all we'll say about that today. comments have been disabled.)
posted by knotty knots at 10:52 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
Almost like they're saying here, look at *this* rich guy, focus your attention over here now please!! Forget about the rest (oh and btw the Unabomber is bad mmkay, that's all we'll say about that today. comments have been disabled.)
posted by knotty knots at 10:52 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
It's still up, under "The Point"
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:09 AM on December 14
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:09 AM on December 14
There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first learn how to make paperwork kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be
posted by house-goblin at 11:29 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
But first learn how to make paperwork kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be
posted by house-goblin at 11:29 AM on December 14 [3 favorites]
I have tried to ignore this story generally but this morning on a dog walk I listened to Trevor Noah discuss it with a couple people on his podcast, and it was a really interesting conversation. Recommend.
posted by Glinn at 11:46 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
posted by Glinn at 11:46 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
I feel bad for the software, with so many people voluntarily outing themselves and getting themselves onto and higher and higher up the list of targets for ruling class repression. Like, occupy wall street and BLM have kept it pretty busy, but now this and the inauguration... spare a thought for all the apparatus of repression that now has to inspect and oppress all these new class-war pundits. The database entries are just hunming and buzzing. The internet as confessional was such a poor choice. Like holding the meetings for the Boston Tea Party on the floor of Parliment.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 11:49 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 11:49 AM on December 14 [1 favorite]
For a moment after the killing I had the thought of “hmmm, wonder if this will shake things up a tiny bit in the healthcare discourse” followed almost immediately by the rock solid belief that the oligarchs and their sycophantic mouthpieces will just use this as another tool in their almost endless supply to accelerate neo-feudalism.
Witness the Florida mother of three jailed w/ $100k bond because she got pissed at her insurance company for denying her coverage of some medical event.
Fucking judge said she deserved to be in jail because of something like the ‘current climate’ ie the killing of Thompson.
Insulting corporations and their executives will be soon classified as ‘hate speech’ and outlawed. Well, unless you’re insulting them for being too woke.
The bad guys won (they usually do). The formal opposition are cowards and quislings. The self proclaimed watchdogs are all bending the knee. I don’t think representative democracy survives as none of those with power want it to and most are actively working for its death.
posted by WatTylerJr at 12:20 PM on December 14 [6 favorites]
Witness the Florida mother of three jailed w/ $100k bond because she got pissed at her insurance company for denying her coverage of some medical event.
Fucking judge said she deserved to be in jail because of something like the ‘current climate’ ie the killing of Thompson.
Insulting corporations and their executives will be soon classified as ‘hate speech’ and outlawed. Well, unless you’re insulting them for being too woke.
The bad guys won (they usually do). The formal opposition are cowards and quislings. The self proclaimed watchdogs are all bending the knee. I don’t think representative democracy survives as none of those with power want it to and most are actively working for its death.
posted by WatTylerJr at 12:20 PM on December 14 [6 favorites]
This country gets more defiantly and willfully ignorant by the day. If you don't think UHC commits murder daily, I don't know what to say. And, they do it while skimming billions of dollars from your healthcare while providing exactly nothing of value. Mangione is far from the only criminal here.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:40 PM on December 14 [3 favorites]
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:40 PM on December 14 [3 favorites]
Me: In a single payer system there's no option to go private. There's also no particular reason talented doctors would have to work for average wages.
Fuzz: This argument is the essential part of the Big Lie that keeps the terrible US system in place. I live in Spain, where I have full single-payer coverage....I also pay for two private insurance...My other insurance charges me about $400/month for gold-plated coverage..I use the private insurance to get immediate appointments with the specialists of my choice. When the top digestive specialist where I live was booked solid for two months through the public system, I was able to get an appointment in a couple of days at his private practice with my insurance. Americans are brainwashed into thinking that the only options are their current abusive system or a totalitarian lack of choice. Don't believe the propaganda.
That's not a single payer system. There are multiple payers there. The government can buy you insurance but YOU can also buy you insurance. As far as I know the only country with true single payer insurance is Canada. Here if a medical service is covered by provincial health insurance it is against the law for anyone else to pay for it. You cannot get private insurance for it or pay for it privately. There is one payer. It is the province.
You know what that means? That means more choice not less because there are no doctors or specialists that are off limits to anyone. No doctor can decide they're going to off and work "in the private system*" because there is no private system. I totally agree that Americans are brainwashed into thinking they have more choice because they get to choose insurance when all they're choosing when they choose insurance is a bunch of limits on what healthcare they're able to get.
To add, as a Canadian, a system where a person who can afford to pay $400 a month for private insurance gets to see a specialist sooner than a person who cannot seems supremely unjust. Not as bad as a system where people are denied lifesaving treatment, but unjust nonetheless.
* Note: They're all working in the private system in the sense that most care is actually provided by private businesses and doctors in private practice, but the services are all PAID for by the publicly funded health insurance. It's the insurance that's public, not the actual provision of care.
** Note 2: Yes, even in private hospitals. So seriously Americans, why did you let Rand Paul off the hook for getting surgery in an Ontario hospital and then just going "but it was a PRIVATE hospital..." yes, it was a private hospital where Ontario residents have surgery for free and absolutely do not pay for surgery, just like at every other Ontario hospital.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:32 PM on December 14 [5 favorites]
Fuzz: This argument is the essential part of the Big Lie that keeps the terrible US system in place. I live in Spain, where I have full single-payer coverage....I also pay for two private insurance...My other insurance charges me about $400/month for gold-plated coverage..I use the private insurance to get immediate appointments with the specialists of my choice. When the top digestive specialist where I live was booked solid for two months through the public system, I was able to get an appointment in a couple of days at his private practice with my insurance. Americans are brainwashed into thinking that the only options are their current abusive system or a totalitarian lack of choice. Don't believe the propaganda.
That's not a single payer system. There are multiple payers there. The government can buy you insurance but YOU can also buy you insurance. As far as I know the only country with true single payer insurance is Canada. Here if a medical service is covered by provincial health insurance it is against the law for anyone else to pay for it. You cannot get private insurance for it or pay for it privately. There is one payer. It is the province.
You know what that means? That means more choice not less because there are no doctors or specialists that are off limits to anyone. No doctor can decide they're going to off and work "in the private system*" because there is no private system. I totally agree that Americans are brainwashed into thinking they have more choice because they get to choose insurance when all they're choosing when they choose insurance is a bunch of limits on what healthcare they're able to get.
To add, as a Canadian, a system where a person who can afford to pay $400 a month for private insurance gets to see a specialist sooner than a person who cannot seems supremely unjust. Not as bad as a system where people are denied lifesaving treatment, but unjust nonetheless.
* Note: They're all working in the private system in the sense that most care is actually provided by private businesses and doctors in private practice, but the services are all PAID for by the publicly funded health insurance. It's the insurance that's public, not the actual provision of care.
** Note 2: Yes, even in private hospitals. So seriously Americans, why did you let Rand Paul off the hook for getting surgery in an Ontario hospital and then just going "but it was a PRIVATE hospital..." yes, it was a private hospital where Ontario residents have surgery for free and absolutely do not pay for surgery, just like at every other Ontario hospital.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:32 PM on December 14 [5 favorites]
Yes, I'd rather have single-payer health care and the profit motive taken entirely out of hospitals, but insurance companies, though it pains me to say it, are NOT "inherently wasteful" at all.
They are inherently wasteful. Why would doctors "jack up the price" if their salary does not depend at all on what treatments they offer or execute? Why are we conceiving off doctors as selfish businesspeople, just looking to optimise their own profits at all costs, and not the reasons professionals bound by professional oaths that they are? Why, if you can acknowledge that removing the profit motive is possible, would you argue that a layer whose purpose you say is to prevent rampant profit-maximising-at-all-costs is not inherently wasteful? That function does not need to exist unless you take everything else about the US model as an unchangeable given. Which is to say that it does not need to exist, because the US for-profit model is not the only one that exists.
posted by Dysk at 4:22 PM on December 14 [4 favorites]
They are inherently wasteful. Why would doctors "jack up the price" if their salary does not depend at all on what treatments they offer or execute? Why are we conceiving off doctors as selfish businesspeople, just looking to optimise their own profits at all costs, and not the reasons professionals bound by professional oaths that they are? Why, if you can acknowledge that removing the profit motive is possible, would you argue that a layer whose purpose you say is to prevent rampant profit-maximising-at-all-costs is not inherently wasteful? That function does not need to exist unless you take everything else about the US model as an unchangeable given. Which is to say that it does not need to exist, because the US for-profit model is not the only one that exists.
posted by Dysk at 4:22 PM on December 14 [4 favorites]
> make 10-20x median income upon graduation
Ignoring "upon graduation", US median income is about $60k/y. Average US physician income seems to be about $363k, so 6x as much.
posted by fleacircus at 5:09 PM on December 14 [1 favorite]
Ignoring "upon graduation", US median income is about $60k/y. Average US physician income seems to be about $363k, so 6x as much.
posted by fleacircus at 5:09 PM on December 14 [1 favorite]
Yes, I'd rather have single-payer health care and the profit motive taken entirely out of hospitals, but insurance companies, though it pains me to say it, are NOT "inherently wasteful" at all.
Australian here. We could run our whole medical infrastructure without private insurance. It's huge waste of American dollars. It's pure rent seeking. It does not need to be there. And as far as 'they apply pressure to doctors to keep things cheap' - my god! How can you make that argument when people are copping bills for $180 or more for a single dose of ER aspirin that costs half a cent over the counter at a pharmacy? They do the opposite. They have a vested interest to inflate prices so there's enough cream for them to skim.
They make things more expensive. They deny care. They kill people. I'm sorry. The whole industry is predatory and parasitic. Every other damn country in the world that has universal care provides cheaper care, more readily, more equitably, and with better outcomes. There is no argument to be made that the American model - and especially your insurance model - is better or serves any other function than to extract money from people at the most vulnerable moments of their lives. It literally kills people. There are better models. There are better models in use, globally, now! It's not even pipedream stuff. It's just there. Right now!
posted by Jilder at 5:13 PM on December 14 [6 favorites]
Australian here. We could run our whole medical infrastructure without private insurance. It's huge waste of American dollars. It's pure rent seeking. It does not need to be there. And as far as 'they apply pressure to doctors to keep things cheap' - my god! How can you make that argument when people are copping bills for $180 or more for a single dose of ER aspirin that costs half a cent over the counter at a pharmacy? They do the opposite. They have a vested interest to inflate prices so there's enough cream for them to skim.
They make things more expensive. They deny care. They kill people. I'm sorry. The whole industry is predatory and parasitic. Every other damn country in the world that has universal care provides cheaper care, more readily, more equitably, and with better outcomes. There is no argument to be made that the American model - and especially your insurance model - is better or serves any other function than to extract money from people at the most vulnerable moments of their lives. It literally kills people. There are better models. There are better models in use, globally, now! It's not even pipedream stuff. It's just there. Right now!
posted by Jilder at 5:13 PM on December 14 [6 favorites]
I want to hear more from the grumpy old dude who thought interjecting Luigi wasn’t even a UHC customer was relevant and then said Taylor Lorenz was anti-vax or somethin’.
No True Scotsman/Insured Patient was not on my 2024 bingo card.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 5:17 PM on December 14 [1 favorite]
No True Scotsman/Insured Patient was not on my 2024 bingo card.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 5:17 PM on December 14 [1 favorite]
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posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:24 PM on December 13 [164 favorites]