gentle into that good night
December 21, 2024 4:41 AM Subscribe
Here in the waning days of the administration of Joe Biden, two stories: From the WSJ, "How the White House Functioned With a Diminished Biden in Charge," tracing the president's inner circle's efforts to keep tight control over access. And from the NYT, "A Weary Biden Heads for the Exit," offering a portrait of the president's final moments as the most powerful man in the world. (WSJ archive; NYT archive)
Counterpoint: The Biden-Harris Record.
Counterpoint: The Biden-Harris Record.
Oh, how loyal Democrats snarled at any suggestion that Biden wasn’t razor sharp with an energy that left his young staffers struggling to keep up.
Then came the debate, which was attributed to either his speech impediment or having a cold that no one had mentioned earlier.
Finally came his nobility in stepping aside, after precious weeks had been squandered with the entire party begging to go away, ended only by Nancy Pelosi threatening to publicly fuck him up if he didn’t get with the program.
A suitably pathetic ending for a long sordid career as a corporate bagman.
posted by Lemkin at 5:22 AM on December 21 [34 favorites]
Then came the debate, which was attributed to either his speech impediment or having a cold that no one had mentioned earlier.
Finally came his nobility in stepping aside, after precious weeks had been squandered with the entire party begging to go away, ended only by Nancy Pelosi threatening to publicly fuck him up if he didn’t get with the program.
A suitably pathetic ending for a long sordid career as a corporate bagman.
posted by Lemkin at 5:22 AM on December 21 [34 favorites]
Unfortunately, the record is not a counterpoint. The main element of their record will be ceding Trump a second term.
In the spring of 2021:
posted by pjenks at 5:30 AM on December 21 [29 favorites]
In the spring of 2021:
a national security official explained to another aide why a meeting needed to be rescheduled. “He has good days and bad days, and today was a bad day so we’re going to address this tomorrow"why was there even a question 2-3 years later?
posted by pjenks at 5:30 AM on December 21 [29 favorites]
We will shortly come to appreciate a President who is well-meaning but doddering over a President who is a deranged criminal who will be cruel to our country above-and-beyond what’s demanded by his financiers at the Kremlin.
posted by chasing at 5:50 AM on December 21 [35 favorites]
posted by chasing at 5:50 AM on December 21 [35 favorites]
(“Well-meaning” not valid in all areas)
posted by Lemkin at 5:53 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 5:53 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
I am so angry. He should have handed over the reins years ago.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:55 AM on December 21 [11 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:55 AM on December 21 [11 favorites]
We will shortly come to appreciate a President who is well-meaning but doddering over a President who is a deranged criminal who will be cruel to our country above-and-beyond what’s demanded by his financiers at the Kremlin.
I mean.. no. I'm pretty furious that this the dichotomy that was presented to us. Well-meaning but doddering should be reserved for my grandpa, never the leader of the free world. I don't appreciate anything about that.
The only thing I appreciate is that the Democrats are seemingly incompetent and the Republicans are willfully malignant. Good stuff.
posted by kbanas at 6:04 AM on December 21 [22 favorites]
I mean.. no. I'm pretty furious that this the dichotomy that was presented to us. Well-meaning but doddering should be reserved for my grandpa, never the leader of the free world. I don't appreciate anything about that.
The only thing I appreciate is that the Democrats are seemingly incompetent and the Republicans are willfully malignant. Good stuff.
posted by kbanas at 6:04 AM on December 21 [22 favorites]
This is very good to hear:
Mr. Zients, the chief of staff, reported that the administration has announced awards for about 98 percent of the money made available through the end of the fiscal year from four major laws passed by Mr. Biden: the American Rescue Plan, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, the CHIPS and Science Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act.
posted by doctornemo at 6:10 AM on December 21 [7 favorites]
Mr. Zients, the chief of staff, reported that the administration has announced awards for about 98 percent of the money made available through the end of the fiscal year from four major laws passed by Mr. Biden: the American Rescue Plan, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, the CHIPS and Science Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act.
posted by doctornemo at 6:10 AM on December 21 [7 favorites]
I mean.. no. I'm pretty furious that this the dichotomy that was presented to us. Well-meaning but doddering should be reserved for my grandpa, never the leader of the free world. I don't appreciate anything about that.
Seriously! "The kindly genocidaire surely means well!" I'm ashamed to admit I voted for the guy along with the contingent of leftists that held their nose just because Trump seemed like he could do more imminent damage.
I'll never forget the voices of those who encouraged me because "we can push Biden left after he's elected!" The #resisters saying those kinds of things evaporated basically over night. I remember the day after he got elected when some anarchists firebombed a Dem campaign office and I had a moment of hope, but then there was just endless hand-wringing over "oh, we have to support Biden and let him do his job." Voting is a fucking scam. Never again.
posted by Krazor at 6:20 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
Seriously! "The kindly genocidaire surely means well!" I'm ashamed to admit I voted for the guy along with the contingent of leftists that held their nose just because Trump seemed like he could do more imminent damage.
I'll never forget the voices of those who encouraged me because "we can push Biden left after he's elected!" The #resisters saying those kinds of things evaporated basically over night. I remember the day after he got elected when some anarchists firebombed a Dem campaign office and I had a moment of hope, but then there was just endless hand-wringing over "oh, we have to support Biden and let him do his job." Voting is a fucking scam. Never again.
posted by Krazor at 6:20 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
Biden-Harris Administration Approves Additional $4.28 Billion in Student Debt Relief for Nearly 55,000 Public Service Workers
And on the same day, drops another plan (granted, a long shot) to forgive loans for 25 million Americans. While at the same time dropping rules designed to protect transgender athletes.
Motherfucker is obeying the fascists in advance. He should not give two fucks at this point, but instead on his way out the door he's doing everything he can to make things easier on his replacement.
posted by Room 101 at 6:23 AM on December 21 [21 favorites]
And on the same day, drops another plan (granted, a long shot) to forgive loans for 25 million Americans. While at the same time dropping rules designed to protect transgender athletes.
Motherfucker is obeying the fascists in advance. He should not give two fucks at this point, but instead on his way out the door he's doing everything he can to make things easier on his replacement.
posted by Room 101 at 6:23 AM on December 21 [21 favorites]
Seriously! "The kindly genocidaire surely means well!"
I hope Biden's advancing senescence permits him at least a dim awareness of his legacy as toadying handmaiden to the Butcher of Jerusalem.
posted by Lemkin at 6:24 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
I hope Biden's advancing senescence permits him at least a dim awareness of his legacy as toadying handmaiden to the Butcher of Jerusalem.
posted by Lemkin at 6:24 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
I'll never forget the voices of those who encouraged me because "we can push Biden left after he's elected!" The #resisters saying those kinds of things evaporated basically over night.
If the whole plan was to push Biden left after the election and he didn't get elected, what did you WANT us to say?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:42 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
If the whole plan was to push Biden left after the election and he didn't get elected, what did you WANT us to say?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:42 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
Motherfucker is obeying the fascists in advance. He should not give two fucks at this point, but instead on his way out the door he's doing everything he can to make things easier on his replacement.
In that particular case he’s actually making it harder on Trump. Withdrawing the proposed rules makes it so that the Trump administration would have to start the rulemaking process from scratch if it wants to screw with student loan relief or trans athletes. If the rulemaking process had been left as-is, the Trump administration could have used them as vehicles to issue revised versions that were just as punitive but could be implemented faster. It’s the regulatory version of burning a bridge while retreating.
posted by jedicus at 6:47 AM on December 21 [29 favorites]
In that particular case he’s actually making it harder on Trump. Withdrawing the proposed rules makes it so that the Trump administration would have to start the rulemaking process from scratch if it wants to screw with student loan relief or trans athletes. If the rulemaking process had been left as-is, the Trump administration could have used them as vehicles to issue revised versions that were just as punitive but could be implemented faster. It’s the regulatory version of burning a bridge while retreating.
posted by jedicus at 6:47 AM on December 21 [29 favorites]
According to the WaPo (gift link), this is the reason for dropping the trans students rule:
If the agency finalizes the rule now, it would be subject to the Congressional Review Act, which allows Congress to debate and potentially cancel recently issued regulations. That would shine a spotlight on a tough issue for Democrats, people in both parties say, and force some Democrats to take politically difficult votes.
But if the agency did nothing, that would allow the incoming Trump administration to revise the proposed rule and ban trans girls and women from competing on girls’ and women’s teams altogether. And because the Biden rule had already gone through much of the cumbersome rulemaking process, a Trump version could have been implemented quickly and with few bureaucratic hurdles, even if it said something very different from what was originally proposed.
“The Trump administration could have simply looked at all the comments again and wrote the rule they wanted to write,” said Max Eden, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.
In its explanation for withdrawing the rule, the agency noted that a companion regulation on Title IX was already subject to multiple lawsuits challenging the Biden administration’s view that discrimination on the basis of sex includes discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
The Friday notice also made clear that a new administration would have to start again with a new rulemaking process, which could take months or even years.
posted by ShooBoo at 6:52 AM on December 21 [16 favorites]
If the agency finalizes the rule now, it would be subject to the Congressional Review Act, which allows Congress to debate and potentially cancel recently issued regulations. That would shine a spotlight on a tough issue for Democrats, people in both parties say, and force some Democrats to take politically difficult votes.
But if the agency did nothing, that would allow the incoming Trump administration to revise the proposed rule and ban trans girls and women from competing on girls’ and women’s teams altogether. And because the Biden rule had already gone through much of the cumbersome rulemaking process, a Trump version could have been implemented quickly and with few bureaucratic hurdles, even if it said something very different from what was originally proposed.
“The Trump administration could have simply looked at all the comments again and wrote the rule they wanted to write,” said Max Eden, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank.
In its explanation for withdrawing the rule, the agency noted that a companion regulation on Title IX was already subject to multiple lawsuits challenging the Biden administration’s view that discrimination on the basis of sex includes discrimination on the basis of gender identity.
The Friday notice also made clear that a new administration would have to start again with a new rulemaking process, which could take months or even years.
posted by ShooBoo at 6:52 AM on December 21 [16 favorites]
I am so angry. He should have handed over the reins years ago.
I feel the same way and agree, and I also wonder how much his diminished capacity actually made that less likely. He seems to have gotten more combative with age rather than more docile.
We should have held a real primary in 2022/2023, and the reason we rubber stamped Biden again is because of the misinformation campaign out of the White House about his health. It sounds like Biden’s inner circle kept him on a very tight leash so that they could wage that campaign effectively. Wtf. At the end of the day, Biden is the one to blame for refusing to limit himself to one term. But I honestly don’t understand what his inner circle were thinking, why there was no whistle blower, wtf was going on…?!
posted by night traveler at 7:15 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
I feel the same way and agree, and I also wonder how much his diminished capacity actually made that less likely. He seems to have gotten more combative with age rather than more docile.
We should have held a real primary in 2022/2023, and the reason we rubber stamped Biden again is because of the misinformation campaign out of the White House about his health. It sounds like Biden’s inner circle kept him on a very tight leash so that they could wage that campaign effectively. Wtf. At the end of the day, Biden is the one to blame for refusing to limit himself to one term. But I honestly don’t understand what his inner circle were thinking, why there was no whistle blower, wtf was going on…?!
posted by night traveler at 7:15 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
Sane washing and elder abuse. No way will I click on any of these links.
posted by pthomas745 at 7:19 AM on December 21 [2 favorites]
posted by pthomas745 at 7:19 AM on December 21 [2 favorites]
If the whole plan was to push Biden left after the election and he didn't get elected, what did you WANT us to say?
Not you specifically, Empress. I'm speaking more to the people out there who were then happy to cheer on Biden's every move going forward, offering none of the promised pushback as time went on. It seems that some people who were very energetic about certain issues under Trump let things slide under Biden. Definitely not everyone, but enough to make me feel that a section of people seemed to suddenly be okay to go-along to get-along with a little deportation and kids in cages.
posted by Krazor at 7:19 AM on December 21 [2 favorites]
Not you specifically, Empress. I'm speaking more to the people out there who were then happy to cheer on Biden's every move going forward, offering none of the promised pushback as time went on. It seems that some people who were very energetic about certain issues under Trump let things slide under Biden. Definitely not everyone, but enough to make me feel that a section of people seemed to suddenly be okay to go-along to get-along with a little deportation and kids in cages.
posted by Krazor at 7:19 AM on December 21 [2 favorites]
Like I'm going to take anything that the WSJ or NYT say at this point at face value.
They are just lying straight to your face. That and putting their fascist thumbs on the scale. And the marching morons just keep on believing them.
posted by Sphinx at 7:44 AM on December 21 [14 favorites]
They are just lying straight to your face. That and putting their fascist thumbs on the scale. And the marching morons just keep on believing them.
posted by Sphinx at 7:44 AM on December 21 [14 favorites]
I don’t know what shitting on Biden accomplishes thirty days before he leaves office. At least, focus on your grievance. Is he the brain dead ghost or the genocidal mastermind?
posted by coldhotel at 7:46 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
posted by coldhotel at 7:46 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
Like I'm going to take anything that the WSJ or NYT say at this point at face value.
That's where I am with this. Those two publications have less than zero credibility in anything touching politics.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:52 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
That's where I am with this. Those two publications have less than zero credibility in anything touching politics.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:52 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
> Is he the brain dead ghost or the genocidal mastermind?
Bad faith, providing cover for genocide. Please stop.
> I don’t know what shitting on Biden accomplishes thirty days before he leaves office.
It's not Biden that's the focus of this conversation, it's the staff and party apparatus that failed us so miserably.
The conclusion is that we can't trust the Democratic party to take popular issues seriously, and that acquiescing to centrist voices who insist that we toe the line is ... A losing strategy.
I find it wholly consistent that an administration which lied to us about the competency of their figure head (losing us an exceptionally vital election) would also be unable unwilling to resist the pressures of a tiny genocidal state in the middle east.
posted by constraint at 8:00 AM on December 21 [12 favorites]
Bad faith, providing cover for genocide. Please stop.
> I don’t know what shitting on Biden accomplishes thirty days before he leaves office.
It's not Biden that's the focus of this conversation, it's the staff and party apparatus that failed us so miserably.
The conclusion is that we can't trust the Democratic party to take popular issues seriously, and that acquiescing to centrist voices who insist that we toe the line is ... A losing strategy.
I find it wholly consistent that an administration which lied to us about the competency of their figure head (losing us an exceptionally vital election) would also be unable unwilling to resist the pressures of a tiny genocidal state in the middle east.
posted by constraint at 8:00 AM on December 21 [12 favorites]
I don’t know what shitting on Biden accomplishes thirty days before he leaves office
In my case, capitalizes on a final chance to heap my loathing on a racist mediocrity who rubber stamped the Iraq War and certainly drove some people to suicide through the draconian machinations of the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act.
This clip of the senator from Mastercard smirking over how many death penalties are instituted in the crime bill he's championing is the real Joe Biden and don't you ever forget it.
posted by Lemkin at 8:02 AM on December 21 [7 favorites]
In my case, capitalizes on a final chance to heap my loathing on a racist mediocrity who rubber stamped the Iraq War and certainly drove some people to suicide through the draconian machinations of the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act.
This clip of the senator from Mastercard smirking over how many death penalties are instituted in the crime bill he's championing is the real Joe Biden and don't you ever forget it.
posted by Lemkin at 8:02 AM on December 21 [7 favorites]
America would have been in better shape if Bernie had won the nom in 2020. And *much* better shape if he had won the nom in 2016.
Biden is a great case study of how neoliberal centrism leads directly to fascism, by being constitutionally unable to respond to populist concerns.
Ah well. If America ever has elections again, maybe AOC will be able to start picking up the pieces. Of course, knowing how much the Dem party likes to learn the wrong lesson, they will probably nominate Liz Cheney.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:07 AM on December 21 [19 favorites]
Biden is a great case study of how neoliberal centrism leads directly to fascism, by being constitutionally unable to respond to populist concerns.
Ah well. If America ever has elections again, maybe AOC will be able to start picking up the pieces. Of course, knowing how much the Dem party likes to learn the wrong lesson, they will probably nominate Liz Cheney.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:07 AM on December 21 [19 favorites]
I'm proud of and grateful for what the Biden-Harris administration was able to accomplish, and I wish it had been able to continue its work. The Inflation Reduction Act and American Rescue Plan were the most progressive legislation passed in my my lifetime by any administration.
It still hurts me on a personal level that so many Americans hate Joe Biden on a personl level, and hate this administration.
America would have been in better shape if Bernie had won the nom in 2020. And *much* better shape if he had won the nom in 2016.
Bernie Sanders is not the one.
posted by ichomp at 8:28 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
It still hurts me on a personal level that so many Americans hate Joe Biden on a personl level, and hate this administration.
America would have been in better shape if Bernie had won the nom in 2020. And *much* better shape if he had won the nom in 2016.
Bernie Sanders is not the one.
posted by ichomp at 8:28 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
I don’t know what shitting on Biden accomplishes thirty days before he leaves office.
The people around him who enabled this are still around and will likely play important roles in 2026 and 2028. We have to think about how we can do better.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:34 AM on December 21 [11 favorites]
The people around him who enabled this are still around and will likely play important roles in 2026 and 2028. We have to think about how we can do better.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:34 AM on December 21 [11 favorites]
Bernie Sanders is not the one.
He never pretended to be. His whole thing was "Not Me, Us." He recognized that the Democratic Party needed to get away from the donor and consultant class, and get back to the grassroots.
Bernie's no messiah. Just a guy who gets it.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:39 AM on December 21 [14 favorites]
He never pretended to be. His whole thing was "Not Me, Us." He recognized that the Democratic Party needed to get away from the donor and consultant class, and get back to the grassroots.
Bernie's no messiah. Just a guy who gets it.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 8:39 AM on December 21 [14 favorites]
Like I'm going to take anything that the WSJ or NYT say at this point at face value.
They probably had the meat of these articles sitting in the barrel since June, ready to fire for an "October surprise" and as their pinnacles of the "Biden - dementia or just old? Better elect Trump." campaign.
They're just clearing out the archives, tossing out some end-of-the-year leftovers to give a little frisson of nostalgia to all the credulous goons who thought they were neutral factual news organizations.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:50 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
They probably had the meat of these articles sitting in the barrel since June, ready to fire for an "October surprise" and as their pinnacles of the "Biden - dementia or just old? Better elect Trump." campaign.
They're just clearing out the archives, tossing out some end-of-the-year leftovers to give a little frisson of nostalgia to all the credulous goons who thought they were neutral factual news organizations.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:50 AM on December 21 [9 favorites]
It still hurts me on a personal level that so many Americans hate Joe Biden
We’re not homogenous. Some people hate him because they think he’s forcibly reassigning the genders of schoolchildren. Others hate him for arming a genocide.
In conclusion: America is a land of contrast. Thank you.
posted by Lemkin at 9:01 AM on December 21 [7 favorites]
We’re not homogenous. Some people hate him because they think he’s forcibly reassigning the genders of schoolchildren. Others hate him for arming a genocide.
In conclusion: America is a land of contrast. Thank you.
posted by Lemkin at 9:01 AM on December 21 [7 favorites]
We’re not homogenous. Some people hate him because they think he’s forcibly reassigning the genders of schoolchildren. Others hate him for arming a genocide.
Can we hate him because of what he did to Anita Hill?!
posted by kbanas at 9:03 AM on December 21 [12 favorites]
Can we hate him because of what he did to Anita Hill?!
posted by kbanas at 9:03 AM on December 21 [12 favorites]
We're a big tent.
posted by Lemkin at 9:08 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 9:08 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
While it's hard to take anything seriously from these two "newspapers", there are still people who were close to Biden that had to know he was slipping. The questions are when did they know it and why didn't they do something about it? Loyalty is an admirable quality but the fate of our democracy hung in the balance and they said nothing.
posted by tommasz at 9:29 AM on December 21 [1 favorite]
posted by tommasz at 9:29 AM on December 21 [1 favorite]
why didn't they do something about it?
The entire lives of the political class are devoted to gaining proximity to power. The ones close enough to Biden to have full knowledge of his decrepitude are the ones who were most successful in eliminating every other consideration from their existence. They are the very last people we could ever expect to jeopardize their position in the service of a principle.
You might as well ask Bormann why he didn't tell Hitler it was unfair to blame Steiner for not counterattacking.
posted by Lemkin at 9:38 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
The entire lives of the political class are devoted to gaining proximity to power. The ones close enough to Biden to have full knowledge of his decrepitude are the ones who were most successful in eliminating every other consideration from their existence. They are the very last people we could ever expect to jeopardize their position in the service of a principle.
You might as well ask Bormann why he didn't tell Hitler it was unfair to blame Steiner for not counterattacking.
posted by Lemkin at 9:38 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
It still hurts me on a personal level that so many Americans hate Joe Biden on a personl level, and hate this administration.
The thing is: even if he was the only one who could have been elected, he could have resigned after a year and let Harris take over. He chose not to, chose to hang onto power, thought he was the only one who could save things; and his hubris failed everyone. Not to mention, of course, the hippie-punching he engaged in last spring.
posted by corb at 9:50 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
The thing is: even if he was the only one who could have been elected, he could have resigned after a year and let Harris take over. He chose not to, chose to hang onto power, thought he was the only one who could save things; and his hubris failed everyone. Not to mention, of course, the hippie-punching he engaged in last spring.
posted by corb at 9:50 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]
Great to see this thread is full of conspiracy theories with as little basis as QAnon. No, several seasoned reporters who care about their reputations, who work for publications with fact-checking, have not just completely fabricated this story out of thin air.
As others have already pointed out - the issue isn't how anyone here feels about Biden. The issue is that his broader administration hid his condition from the public, he never should have run again and the party should have allowed a competitive primary, and a key result of them making the decisions they made is a growing public distrust of the Democratic Party. Not good.
posted by coffeecat at 9:55 AM on December 21 [17 favorites]
As others have already pointed out - the issue isn't how anyone here feels about Biden. The issue is that his broader administration hid his condition from the public, he never should have run again and the party should have allowed a competitive primary, and a key result of them making the decisions they made is a growing public distrust of the Democratic Party. Not good.
posted by coffeecat at 9:55 AM on December 21 [17 favorites]
Anyone could look at videos of Biden when he was VP and Biden when he was campaigning to be the nominee that he fundamentally changed in that time period. It’s not a long time, and you don’t see older people change that much unless something serious is going on. This was effectively an open secret that no wanted to believe
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:02 AM on December 21 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:02 AM on December 21 [2 favorites]
I mean, just take this one example provided in the WSJ:
posted by coffeecat at 10:07 AM on December 21 [12 favorites]
If the president was having an off day, meetings could be scrapped altogether. On one such occasion, in the spring of 2021, a national security official explained to another aide why a meeting needed to be rescheduled. “He has good days and bad days, and today was a bad day so we’re going to address this tomorrow,” the former aide recalled the official saying.To state the obvious, being President is an extremely demanding job (to an extent we no doubt cannot fully grasp) that requires a lot of time talking with people, gathering information, and making the best choices you can. You can't afford to have someone with "bad days" or who can't be bothered to speak to the chair of the House Armed Services Committee ahead of the withdrawal from Afghanistan! Yes, Trump also didn't work hard - but that's a classic whataboutism - we get to expect better than Trump!
While it isn’t uncommon for politicians to want more time with the president than they get, some Democrats felt Biden was unusually hard to reach.
That’s what Rep. Adam Smith of Washington found when he tried to share his concerns with the president ahead of the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan in 2021. Smith, a Democrat who then chaired the powerful House Armed Services Committee, was alarmed by what he viewed as overly optimistic comments from Biden as the administration assembled plans for the operation.
“I was begging them to set expectations low,” said Smith, who had worked extensively on the issue and harbored concerns about how the withdrawal might go. He sought to talk to Biden directly to share his insights about the region but couldn’t get on the phone with him, Smith said.
After the disastrous withdrawal, which left 13 U.S. service members and more than 170 Afghans dead, Smith made a critical comment to the Washington Post about the administration lacking a “clear-eyed view” of the U.S.-backed Ashraf Ghani government’s durability. It was among comments that triggered an angry phone call from Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who ended up getting an earful from the frustrated chairman. Shortly after, Smith got an apologetic call from Biden. It was the only phone call Biden made to Smith in his four years in office, Smith said.
“The Biden White House was more insulated than most,” Smith said. “I spoke with Barack Obama on a number of occasions when he was president and I wasn’t even chairman of the committee.”
posted by coffeecat at 10:07 AM on December 21 [12 favorites]
I think the articles fail to make a strong point.
It's not the President's job to be at peak intellectual engagement 80 hours a week. It might be nice, but it's not the job. The job is to appoint qualified subordinates, and fire them when they miss the mark too badly or too often.
The articles don't argue Biden made bad appointments - which would be, I think, a hard argument to make. The President's harshest critics from the right and left would mostly concede the White House staff and Cabinet-level appointees were solid.
The articles also don't argue there were people Biden should have fired he didn't. (It doesn't mean that he didn't fail in that regard, but it does mean the articles didn't prove or even really try to prove that he did.)
posted by MattD at 10:20 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
It's not the President's job to be at peak intellectual engagement 80 hours a week. It might be nice, but it's not the job. The job is to appoint qualified subordinates, and fire them when they miss the mark too badly or too often.
The articles don't argue Biden made bad appointments - which would be, I think, a hard argument to make. The President's harshest critics from the right and left would mostly concede the White House staff and Cabinet-level appointees were solid.
The articles also don't argue there were people Biden should have fired he didn't. (It doesn't mean that he didn't fail in that regard, but it does mean the articles didn't prove or even really try to prove that he did.)
posted by MattD at 10:20 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]
I just can’t wait for another 8 years of “Bernie woulda won!” on MetaFilter since the last 8 went so well.
Apropos of nothing, do you know there are currently only 2000 active users on this website and even that number is trending downward?
Anyway, sure can’t wait to see the same comments by the same people!
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:02 AM on December 21 [6 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, do you know there are currently only 2000 active users on this website and even that number is trending downward?
Anyway, sure can’t wait to see the same comments by the same people!
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:02 AM on December 21 [6 favorites]
The articles don't argue Biden made bad appointments - which would be, I think, a hard argument to make. The President's harshest critics from the right and left would mostly concede the White House staff and Cabinet-level appointees were solid.
There are a lot of criticisms levied at Jeff Zients, his chief of staff in the latter part of his tenure.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:28 AM on December 21 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of criticisms levied at Jeff Zients, his chief of staff in the latter part of his tenure.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:28 AM on December 21 [1 favorite]
I think the articles fail to make a strong point.
You don't need to make a strong point when people are already scared and angry, you can just gesture in a general direction and set let them loose...
Who are we mad at here, and why?
Biden for thinking he could do a job that he apparently couldn't? Biden for not talking to the press enough? Biden for losing? Biden for being a sexist corporate dem in the 1990s? Biden for enabling a genocide? His aides for not dropping more hints that he should stop being president, or conspiring to get him to step down? Biden and the Democratic party for not holding a primary?
I think many of these are good reasons to be angry, but I also think Biden did a pretty good job on climate and economic and social policy. I don't think anyone can argue in good faith that he wasn't the most progressive president in recent memory (which is an argument being made above).
Yes, you can ask for more. But don't make the mistake of conflating your preferred course of action for a clear-cut electoral strategy, or the mistake of diagnosing the Defining Incident that makes Biden/careerist democrats/liberalism/etc clear and obvious Bad People.
posted by ropeladder at 11:29 AM on December 21 [13 favorites]
You don't need to make a strong point when people are already scared and angry, you can just gesture in a general direction and set let them loose...
Who are we mad at here, and why?
Biden for thinking he could do a job that he apparently couldn't? Biden for not talking to the press enough? Biden for losing? Biden for being a sexist corporate dem in the 1990s? Biden for enabling a genocide? His aides for not dropping more hints that he should stop being president, or conspiring to get him to step down? Biden and the Democratic party for not holding a primary?
I think many of these are good reasons to be angry, but I also think Biden did a pretty good job on climate and economic and social policy. I don't think anyone can argue in good faith that he wasn't the most progressive president in recent memory (which is an argument being made above).
Yes, you can ask for more. But don't make the mistake of conflating your preferred course of action for a clear-cut electoral strategy, or the mistake of diagnosing the Defining Incident that makes Biden/careerist democrats/liberalism/etc clear and obvious Bad People.
posted by ropeladder at 11:29 AM on December 21 [13 favorites]
Not that much to concern. But I probably came out of the womb a democrat. Every day I sunny sided up with what I thought was a sophisticated realist perspective. Albeit one primarily concerned with democrats doing the good.
But wow the epiphanies since Trump ascendant have been fast and furious the last few weeks.
I’ll not digress into the accelerating fascism of the ruling party. We all know and fear it.
Rather I cannot stomache any more the democratic leadership ever again. Among the many many failings They’ve failed to do anything to broadly advance the country and/or protect the vulnerable.
Their sole motivations are their own narcissistic grasping onto what power they have until wheeled out to the morgue.
Don’t ageism at me, very sensitive to the harm that does, but dammit that doesn’t mean we must be run by a scenescent sclerotic gang of octogenarians who WILL NOT gracefully retire from leadership.
Why do we need an endless term of Durbin, Schumer, Pelosi, Connelly? Were not the Ginsberg and Feinstein examples enough?
Do any advocate of the current leadership really believe these leaders will be up to the task of fighting the tide of fascism? They will not.
We desperately need a sharp, nimble, far thinking, energetic, and in touch leadership. These are not it.
Or maybe we can show the soon to be deported or raped pregnant women that really inspiring picture of Pelosi ripping that paper in front of trump that one time. That will make things all better.
The nation needs an opposition party. I don’t think the Democratic one is it.
posted by WatTylerJr at 11:33 AM on December 21 [19 favorites]
But wow the epiphanies since Trump ascendant have been fast and furious the last few weeks.
I’ll not digress into the accelerating fascism of the ruling party. We all know and fear it.
Rather I cannot stomache any more the democratic leadership ever again. Among the many many failings They’ve failed to do anything to broadly advance the country and/or protect the vulnerable.
Their sole motivations are their own narcissistic grasping onto what power they have until wheeled out to the morgue.
Don’t ageism at me, very sensitive to the harm that does, but dammit that doesn’t mean we must be run by a scenescent sclerotic gang of octogenarians who WILL NOT gracefully retire from leadership.
Why do we need an endless term of Durbin, Schumer, Pelosi, Connelly? Were not the Ginsberg and Feinstein examples enough?
Do any advocate of the current leadership really believe these leaders will be up to the task of fighting the tide of fascism? They will not.
We desperately need a sharp, nimble, far thinking, energetic, and in touch leadership. These are not it.
Or maybe we can show the soon to be deported or raped pregnant women that really inspiring picture of Pelosi ripping that paper in front of trump that one time. That will make things all better.
The nation needs an opposition party. I don’t think the Democratic one is it.
posted by WatTylerJr at 11:33 AM on December 21 [19 favorites]
It's not the President's job to be at peak intellectual engagement 80 hours a week.
No, but it is the President’s job to be at peak intellectual engagement if there is, say, a question of responding to an imminent nuclear threat. I find it unfortunate that these threads tend to cleave into known pro and anti-Biden factions, because I will totally concede that the Biden administration was better than I expected on a number of domestic matters (foreign not so much besides finally getting out of Afghanistan but let’s be honest the bar is low there). And I actually think that might have something to do with appointing the right people and giving them a lot of leeway to implement their ideas. At the same time, though, the attempts to dodge the eminently valid concerns about Biden’s age and mental fitness were unconscionable. Even if you’re satisfied with the administration, it’s a huge part of how we got Trump II. Not just the debate and last-minute dropout, but not having a President who could go out looking like a steady hand in the face of economic turmoil. And it’s absurd that some people here still want to talk like it’s no big deal, like we couldn’t all use our eyes and ears and see that this was going to be a risk necessitating succession plans four years ago. If you gotta get your shots in at Bernie, it’s like trying to pretend that his heart attack shouldn’t have had anybody worried.
posted by atoxyl at 11:36 AM on December 21 [10 favorites]
No, but it is the President’s job to be at peak intellectual engagement if there is, say, a question of responding to an imminent nuclear threat. I find it unfortunate that these threads tend to cleave into known pro and anti-Biden factions, because I will totally concede that the Biden administration was better than I expected on a number of domestic matters (foreign not so much besides finally getting out of Afghanistan but let’s be honest the bar is low there). And I actually think that might have something to do with appointing the right people and giving them a lot of leeway to implement their ideas. At the same time, though, the attempts to dodge the eminently valid concerns about Biden’s age and mental fitness were unconscionable. Even if you’re satisfied with the administration, it’s a huge part of how we got Trump II. Not just the debate and last-minute dropout, but not having a President who could go out looking like a steady hand in the face of economic turmoil. And it’s absurd that some people here still want to talk like it’s no big deal, like we couldn’t all use our eyes and ears and see that this was going to be a risk necessitating succession plans four years ago. If you gotta get your shots in at Bernie, it’s like trying to pretend that his heart attack shouldn’t have had anybody worried.
posted by atoxyl at 11:36 AM on December 21 [10 favorites]
America would have been in better shape if Bernie had won the nom in 2020. And *much* better shape if he had won the nom in 2016.
I’m confused how we jump from not able to win the democratic primary to « yeah, he would have won the election ». This is the same electorate that elected Donald Trump TWICE.
But I’ll concede US elections don’t seem to have anything to do with the candidate platform and have turned in some kind of weird popularity/vibe contest. Maybe Sanders wins that … or not, we’ll never know.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:05 PM on December 21 [7 favorites]
I’m confused how we jump from not able to win the democratic primary to « yeah, he would have won the election ». This is the same electorate that elected Donald Trump TWICE.
But I’ll concede US elections don’t seem to have anything to do with the candidate platform and have turned in some kind of weird popularity/vibe contest. Maybe Sanders wins that … or not, we’ll never know.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:05 PM on December 21 [7 favorites]
The reason I'm upset is that American politics is buying and spending political capital, and everything that Biden spent political capital on, like withdrawing from Afghanistan and forgiving student loans, turned out to cost us everything and gain us nothing.
Do we deserve good leaders? YES!!! Biden is not the only or last one!
But the fact that he got pilloried means we aren't getting a better leader after him. What exactly is incentivizing future leaders to do things like ending a war, supporting trans people, or forgiving debt? They saw how it turned out. Absolutely no one will give them credit let alone reward them.
posted by ichomp at 12:06 PM on December 21 [3 favorites]
Do we deserve good leaders? YES!!! Biden is not the only or last one!
But the fact that he got pilloried means we aren't getting a better leader after him. What exactly is incentivizing future leaders to do things like ending a war, supporting trans people, or forgiving debt? They saw how it turned out. Absolutely no one will give them credit let alone reward them.
posted by ichomp at 12:06 PM on December 21 [3 favorites]
I've been thinking about this all day. IMO, Biden was made vice president because he was the whitest possible guy out there, not because of his qualifications. He did have qualifications as an experienced dealmaker in the senate, which Obama was not, but that was not why he was chosen. And he was never, ever qualified for the presidency.
When he won over Trump, it was again his white guy credentials. He was as white, as racist, as misogynist and almost as chaotic as Trump but not a crook.
Just like Biden was Obama's VP to compensate for his otherness (which went way beyond being black), Harris was Biden's VP to compensate for his whiteness and also his chaotic nature.
But all of this "gaming the system" approach to presidential elections is sick. I feel it was created by the Clinton generation and it needs to go away. I understand why some people think Bernie was an alternative, but he has some other issues that would never work with a broader public. We need a new generation.
I'm not sure the above will make sense to anyone, it is thinking in progress, but I hope sharing it with you guys can perhaps help me develop the concept.
posted by mumimor at 12:11 PM on December 21 [4 favorites]
When he won over Trump, it was again his white guy credentials. He was as white, as racist, as misogynist and almost as chaotic as Trump but not a crook.
Just like Biden was Obama's VP to compensate for his otherness (which went way beyond being black), Harris was Biden's VP to compensate for his whiteness and also his chaotic nature.
But all of this "gaming the system" approach to presidential elections is sick. I feel it was created by the Clinton generation and it needs to go away. I understand why some people think Bernie was an alternative, but he has some other issues that would never work with a broader public. We need a new generation.
I'm not sure the above will make sense to anyone, it is thinking in progress, but I hope sharing it with you guys can perhaps help me develop the concept.
posted by mumimor at 12:11 PM on December 21 [4 favorites]
...so many Americans hate Joe Biden on a personal level and hate this administration.
I think much of the animosity stems from disappointment. But who else was there?
We really wanted so much and were wishing for more than we got. The crap icing on the poop cake was his going downhill so fast cognitively and his major failure to deal with the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
Frankly I really didn't expect much from the get-go, and I have no animosity toward him. He was too old, but we were desperate - there should be an age cut-off of 65. Aside from issues of cognitive abilities, I don't care about claims of agism. Get rid of old white men and their fusty worldviews. We need a new generation. THIS! Every new generation deserves one of their own. Somebody that 'gets it.'
How was he supposed to get anything done? We all knew the Repubs would fight him every step of the way, and if he said yellow, they'd fight for purple. He certainly didn't have help from the ineffectual two-faced Dems.
And then there's the money. Democracy is done. We live in a plutocracy. The strings have always been quietly, and now are overtly, pulled by Musk, Zuckerman, Bezos, Waltons, and the rest of the gang. The Koch mafia is actually small potatoes now.
...the president's final moments as the most powerful man in the world.
What a laugh. The most powerful man in the world? More like one of the most ineffectual political leaders in any high-income industrialized country. The President of the United States is just about as effectual as the Royal Family.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:22 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]
I think much of the animosity stems from disappointment. But who else was there?
We really wanted so much and were wishing for more than we got. The crap icing on the poop cake was his going downhill so fast cognitively and his major failure to deal with the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
Frankly I really didn't expect much from the get-go, and I have no animosity toward him. He was too old, but we were desperate - there should be an age cut-off of 65. Aside from issues of cognitive abilities, I don't care about claims of agism. Get rid of old white men and their fusty worldviews. We need a new generation. THIS! Every new generation deserves one of their own. Somebody that 'gets it.'
How was he supposed to get anything done? We all knew the Repubs would fight him every step of the way, and if he said yellow, they'd fight for purple. He certainly didn't have help from the ineffectual two-faced Dems.
And then there's the money. Democracy is done. We live in a plutocracy. The strings have always been quietly, and now are overtly, pulled by Musk, Zuckerman, Bezos, Waltons, and the rest of the gang. The Koch mafia is actually small potatoes now.
...the president's final moments as the most powerful man in the world.
What a laugh. The most powerful man in the world? More like one of the most ineffectual political leaders in any high-income industrialized country. The President of the United States is just about as effectual as the Royal Family.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:22 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]
He was as white, as racist, as misogynist and almost as chaotic as Trump but not a crook.
Uhhh really? As racist, as misogynist and almost as chaotic as Trump? How'd you arrive at that? And he was even just as "white"!?? (maybe more so since he wasn't orange)
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:23 PM on December 21 [8 favorites]
Uhhh really? As racist, as misogynist and almost as chaotic as Trump? How'd you arrive at that? And he was even just as "white"!?? (maybe more so since he wasn't orange)
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:23 PM on December 21 [8 favorites]
You might as well ask Bormann why he didn't tell Hitler it was unfair to blame Steiner for not counterattacking.
interesting. not too many people would get this. quite sure bormann was one of the chief instigators of this fiasco. So, April 21, Hitler's orders Steiner to counter attack, he can't and says so. Hitler can't take the call. the next day Albert Speer shows up pretty much tells him the gig is up and by afternoon conference Hitler's breaking down in a rage saying the war is lost and start sending everyone away.
Martin bormann serves as the epitome of someone not to use as an example for almost anything, historically.
I totally agree with you about power because there is one thing that Joe Biden wanted more than almost anything, to become president of the United States.
posted by clavdivs at 3:22 PM on December 21 [2 favorites]
interesting. not too many people would get this. quite sure bormann was one of the chief instigators of this fiasco. So, April 21, Hitler's orders Steiner to counter attack, he can't and says so. Hitler can't take the call. the next day Albert Speer shows up pretty much tells him the gig is up and by afternoon conference Hitler's breaking down in a rage saying the war is lost and start sending everyone away.
Martin bormann serves as the epitome of someone not to use as an example for almost anything, historically.
I totally agree with you about power because there is one thing that Joe Biden wanted more than almost anything, to become president of the United States.
posted by clavdivs at 3:22 PM on December 21 [2 favorites]
What exactly is incentivizing future leaders to do things like ending a war, supporting trans people, or forgiving debt?
Biden was a bad communicator and failed to take a decisive stand on any of these issues in his presidency, confusing and pissing off multiple sides. Another leader would use the bully pulpit of the presidency to communicate what he was doing and why, and move quickly and decisively to get it done.
His handling of student loan forgiveness was a good example. He spoke about this early on but inexplicably did nothing for more than a year and a half, leading many on the left to believe he didn’t actually support such a policy even as opponents rallied against it.
He first tried with Covid-related emergency powers in August 2022, a year and a half into his term and after most people considered the Covid emergency over, and it was opposed by the GOP and struck down by the Supreme Court. It’s possible this wouldn’t have worked in January 2021 either, but we’ll never know.
But more importantly, he never made a strong public case for loan forgiveness or for who should get it and why. And he didn’t successfully publicly tie loan forgiveness to any other programs to help people get a good affordable education or route people away from ill-suited or downright fraudulent educational programs.
posted by smelendez at 4:41 PM on December 21 [3 favorites]
Biden was a bad communicator and failed to take a decisive stand on any of these issues in his presidency, confusing and pissing off multiple sides. Another leader would use the bully pulpit of the presidency to communicate what he was doing and why, and move quickly and decisively to get it done.
His handling of student loan forgiveness was a good example. He spoke about this early on but inexplicably did nothing for more than a year and a half, leading many on the left to believe he didn’t actually support such a policy even as opponents rallied against it.
He first tried with Covid-related emergency powers in August 2022, a year and a half into his term and after most people considered the Covid emergency over, and it was opposed by the GOP and struck down by the Supreme Court. It’s possible this wouldn’t have worked in January 2021 either, but we’ll never know.
But more importantly, he never made a strong public case for loan forgiveness or for who should get it and why. And he didn’t successfully publicly tie loan forgiveness to any other programs to help people get a good affordable education or route people away from ill-suited or downright fraudulent educational programs.
posted by smelendez at 4:41 PM on December 21 [3 favorites]
mumimor, do you really think that Biden is as racist and misogynist as Trump? Genuine question. I'm not blind to Joe's shortcomings, but it's clear to me that they are an order of magnitude less problematic than Trump's.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 5:37 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]
posted by fingers_of_fire at 5:37 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]
To be honest, I was less horrified than some by the debate, because Biden has always seemed like a bumbling dumbass of a speaker to me, and frankly I think that it was simply the first time a lot of people actually paid attention. I would be surprised to learn that Biden is significantly more addled now than he was in 2009. He's never been a terribly inspiring figure.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:35 PM on December 21 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:35 PM on December 21 [3 favorites]
The very best thing any compassionate Democrat with power could do, right now, is to hasten the end of two-party politics. Use the levers of power to help us get a plural, multi-party argument going like they have in other places.
posted by mathjus at 7:59 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]
posted by mathjus at 7:59 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]
What countries do you feel have been improved by the introduction of such a system?
posted by Selena777 at 8:06 PM on December 21
posted by Selena777 at 8:06 PM on December 21
Germany, France, Canada and Estonia
posted by mathjus at 9:32 PM on December 21 [2 favorites]
posted by mathjus at 9:32 PM on December 21 [2 favorites]
mumimor, do you really think that Biden is as racist and misogynist as Trump? Genuine question. I'm not blind to Joe's shortcomings, but it's clear to me that they are an order of magnitude less problematic than Trump's.
They are both white men at about 80 years old. In my experience, very few of their cohort have been able to free themselves of the deep rooted societal bias and assumptions they grew up with. Now one of them is a literally a crook who enjoys cruelty, and the other is a god-loving man who has tried his best to do the right thing for his whole life. That is a huge difference, and I acknowledge that, of course I do.
But trying is not doing. Throwing Anita Hill under the bus because he didn't want to appear racist, being against abortion, and then this from 2007: "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."
.
posted by mumimor at 2:31 AM on December 22 [2 favorites]
They are both white men at about 80 years old. In my experience, very few of their cohort have been able to free themselves of the deep rooted societal bias and assumptions they grew up with. Now one of them is a literally a crook who enjoys cruelty, and the other is a god-loving man who has tried his best to do the right thing for his whole life. That is a huge difference, and I acknowledge that, of course I do.
But trying is not doing. Throwing Anita Hill under the bus because he didn't want to appear racist, being against abortion, and then this from 2007: "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."
.
posted by mumimor at 2:31 AM on December 22 [2 favorites]
With respect to Biden running for re-election and ceding to Harris only at the last minute, does the blame go to Biden, or to the other possible candidates who could have been running but weren't?
posted by SemiSalt at 5:10 AM on December 22 [1 favorite]
posted by SemiSalt at 5:10 AM on December 22 [1 favorite]
Criticizing Biden really requires you identify things he didn’t do that an incrementally more progressive Obama or 20-years-more-progressive Clinton would have done. There really aren’t any such things.
Bernie would have lost to any Republican in any year in a landslide. Nominating him was no sensible Democrat’s solution to any problem on hand.
Looking at Biden’s judicial appointments and his other senior appointments, far more diverse than any other President’s - Biden was a pretty poor excuse for a racist or sexist.
Biden was smart to take it slow on student loan forgiveness. It’s dubious social welfare policy and educational policy for any number of reasons and is hated by a significant share of the electorate.
posted by MattD at 6:40 AM on December 22 [1 favorite]
Bernie would have lost to any Republican in any year in a landslide. Nominating him was no sensible Democrat’s solution to any problem on hand.
Looking at Biden’s judicial appointments and his other senior appointments, far more diverse than any other President’s - Biden was a pretty poor excuse for a racist or sexist.
Biden was smart to take it slow on student loan forgiveness. It’s dubious social welfare policy and educational policy for any number of reasons and is hated by a significant share of the electorate.
posted by MattD at 6:40 AM on December 22 [1 favorite]
And now that there are no political restrictions on his use of pardon power, does he pardon one-foot-in-the-grave Leonard Peltier?
Ha ha, of course not. He pardons his son (after publicly swearing up and down that he wouldn't) and Michael T. Conahan, who literally imprisoned children for money.
Biden always has been, and he remains, a contemptible piece of shit.
posted by Lemkin at 7:26 AM on December 22
Ha ha, of course not. He pardons his son (after publicly swearing up and down that he wouldn't) and Michael T. Conahan, who literally imprisoned children for money.
Biden always has been, and he remains, a contemptible piece of shit.
posted by Lemkin at 7:26 AM on December 22
Bernie would have lost to any Republican in any year in a landslide. Nominating him was no sensible Democrat’s solution to any problem on hand.
Yes, as opposed to running a centrist democrat, which was so successful. I think that perhaps the results of the democrats' attempts to triangulate and run a middle of the road "safe" candidate might be proof enough that it's time to try something else.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:27 AM on December 22 [4 favorites]
Yes, as opposed to running a centrist democrat, which was so successful. I think that perhaps the results of the democrats' attempts to triangulate and run a middle of the road "safe" candidate might be proof enough that it's time to try something else.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:27 AM on December 22 [4 favorites]
Martin Bormann serves as the epitome of someone not to use as an example for almost anything, historically.
I didn't construct my point well. What I was thinking - after a recent re-reading of Trevor-Roper's bunker account - was how Bormann's power was solely dependent on his monopolistic control over access to the Führer. Once Hitler was dead, Bormann was neither useful or threatening - and hence of no interest - to anyone.
posted by Lemkin at 7:59 AM on December 22
I didn't construct my point well. What I was thinking - after a recent re-reading of Trevor-Roper's bunker account - was how Bormann's power was solely dependent on his monopolistic control over access to the Führer. Once Hitler was dead, Bormann was neither useful or threatening - and hence of no interest - to anyone.
posted by Lemkin at 7:59 AM on December 22
I don’t understand why everyone has to go away and think about what they’ve done after they lose except for the center left. It does seem unfair.
posted by Selena777 at 8:12 AM on December 22 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:12 AM on December 22 [3 favorites]
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posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 5:11 AM on December 21 [6 favorites]