A Man, A Plan, A WTAF
January 7, 2025 5:11 PM Subscribe
Trump refuses to rule out using military to take Panama Canal and Greenland (Guardian) “I can’t assure you on either of those two,” Trump said in response to a reporter’s question. “But I can say this, we need them for economic security.”
From the same paper - ‘A snowball’s chance in hell’: Trudeau rejects Trump threat to annex Canada
"He once again mulled a union between Canada and the US, describing their shared border, established more than 230 years ago, as an “artificially drawn line”.
Both comments happened at the same event, so both things are mentioned in both articles.
From the same paper - ‘A snowball’s chance in hell’: Trudeau rejects Trump threat to annex Canada
"He once again mulled a union between Canada and the US, describing their shared border, established more than 230 years ago, as an “artificially drawn line”.
Both comments happened at the same event, so both things are mentioned in both articles.
I just wanted to post this to try and determine if I am now in an alternate reality. I do not believe any of this will happen. On the other hand, the Oligarchy Ubergrift is about to have 100% control, so. I'd been doing such a good job avoiding the news but thought I would give it a skim. I think it would be great if people who know more about the world than me would like to provide their opinion about it.
Apologies if this news was posted elsewhere. I know he said it the first time a while ago, but I did not know about the doubling down because obviously that is insane and ridiculous?
Or maybe it isn't as unbelievably bananas as it seems, and I just haven't been paying enough attention. The thing is, I want to witness but mostly I just can't do it.
posted by Glinn at 5:15 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]
Apologies if this news was posted elsewhere. I know he said it the first time a while ago, but I did not know about the doubling down because obviously that is insane and ridiculous?
Or maybe it isn't as unbelievably bananas as it seems, and I just haven't been paying enough attention. The thing is, I want to witness but mostly I just can't do it.
posted by Glinn at 5:15 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]
It's there a point at which you can figure out whether this is just bluster, or something the GOP will actually follow through on?
Or will it seem ridiculous and totally out of the realm of possibility until it happens?
posted by fnerg at 5:18 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
Or will it seem ridiculous and totally out of the realm of possibility until it happens?
posted by fnerg at 5:18 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
Trump: Mostly gas and little mass...
posted by jim in austin at 5:27 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 5:27 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
Might be some cover for the Techbro leadership division. Or could simply good old-fashioned Lebensraum wishfulness. Either way, pay attention to Canadians who applaud and promote the notion.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:27 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:27 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]
Trump says a lot of shit, you know?
posted by Lemkin at 5:27 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 5:27 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]
Middle-aged suburban dumbasses with guns fetishes must be out there getting hard thinking about invading Greenland (which is honestly pretty funny). I guess this must play to the base somehow, but there is no chance the US is going to invade Greenland.
posted by ssg at 5:29 PM on January 7
posted by ssg at 5:29 PM on January 7
I hope we do try to invade Canada, and lose, and have to surrender unconditionally.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:31 PM on January 7 [49 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:31 PM on January 7 [49 favorites]
Renaming the Gulf of Mexico to be the Gulf of America is just getting started to see what they can get away with. He instantly acknowledged that Meta caved to his threats.
posted by Brian B. at 5:32 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 5:32 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
One funny thing I saw about this, was speculation that Trump, unaware of the issues with the Mercator projection, may think Greenland is much more vast than it actually is.
posted by mittens at 5:35 PM on January 7 [84 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:35 PM on January 7 [84 favorites]
Well, if the point is to kneecap the US military, ordering an unprovoked invasion of Greenland and/or Panama would certainly seem to work. I don’t care how many sycophants he packs into the Pentagon, there will almost certainly be career officers in the field who will refuse the order. Mayhem ensues.
Didn’t he have a bonerette over invading Greenland his first time around? I don’t get it.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:35 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
Didn’t he have a bonerette over invading Greenland his first time around? I don’t get it.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:35 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
Niagara falls
slowly he turns
(1940s newsreel narrative voice)
"Beset by falling approval ratings and a sagging economy, a desperate U.S. president and his closest advisors launch a campaign to turn America against its most unlikely enemy - Canada."
posted by clavdivs at 5:36 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]
slowly he turns
(1940s newsreel narrative voice)
"Beset by falling approval ratings and a sagging economy, a desperate U.S. president and his closest advisors launch a campaign to turn America against its most unlikely enemy - Canada."
posted by clavdivs at 5:36 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]
In fairness, conquering Greenland will give us...
Well, I'm sure it will give us something.
posted by Lemkin at 5:37 PM on January 7
Well, I'm sure it will give us something.
posted by Lemkin at 5:37 PM on January 7
trump has also said he'll pull us out of nato
both canada and greenland (as part of danmark) are founding members of nato
i suppose the question would be whether he pulls out of nato before or after, because if it's after, this would automatically drag us into war with most of europe, and since we've got bases in across the continent crucial to maintaining a global footprint, most notably in germany and italy (ramstein, incirlik, asbach, sigonella) this seems like a bad idea
but if the goal is to destabilize nato, well, this seems perfect either way
posted by i used to be someone else at 5:37 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
both canada and greenland (as part of danmark) are founding members of nato
i suppose the question would be whether he pulls out of nato before or after, because if it's after, this would automatically drag us into war with most of europe, and since we've got bases in across the continent crucial to maintaining a global footprint, most notably in germany and italy (ramstein, incirlik, asbach, sigonella) this seems like a bad idea
but if the goal is to destabilize nato, well, this seems perfect either way
posted by i used to be someone else at 5:37 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
If we look at the things Trump said he would do in 2016, like actually promised in writing in his contract with America, he did maybe 10-25% of them. Remember the wall that Mexico paid for? Remember repealing ACA and replacing it with something better? Remember the lifetime ban on whitehouse employee lobbying?
I'm no longer going to get worked up about his plans to annex Mars or whatever he's on about this week. I'm going to wait until he actually does something to get mad.
posted by justkevin at 5:38 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]
I'm no longer going to get worked up about his plans to annex Mars or whatever he's on about this week. I'm going to wait until he actually does something to get mad.
posted by justkevin at 5:38 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]
There are some things too cruel even to wish on Donald Trump and negotiating a deal on sovereignty and trade with the Quebecois may be one of them
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:40 PM on January 7 [40 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:40 PM on January 7 [40 favorites]
Seems to me that "I won't rule XXXX out" is a thing he says a lot because he thinks it make him seem smart, not because he actually intends to carry out XXXX.
posted by axiom at 5:44 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]
posted by axiom at 5:44 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]
Honestly, it would be a pretty spot on coda to the concept of the USA to undertake a costly and unnecessary military operation to capture the Panama Canal just as it enters its waning years on the road towards climate change induced obsolescence.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:45 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:45 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]
"Sure, you feel safe around 30 people with guns standing by the big fire because when the zombies emerge, they wind up shooting one another and the zombies, they got your back"
-Jack Handy.
posted by clavdivs at 5:45 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
-Jack Handy.
posted by clavdivs at 5:45 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
Everyone knows this is just empty sleight of hand as usual, right?
Funny how this 2015 video from Nerdwriter still holds up: “How Donald Trump Answers a Question”
posted by Apocryphon at 5:47 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]
Funny how this 2015 video from Nerdwriter still holds up: “How Donald Trump Answers a Question”
posted by Apocryphon at 5:47 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]
One funny thing I saw about this, was speculation that Trump, unaware of the issues with the Mercator projection, may think Greenland is much more vast than it actually is.
Mittens, we need to get some Cartographers for Social Equality to lobby the WH.
posted by honeybee413 at 5:48 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]
Mittens, we need to get some Cartographers for Social Equality to lobby the WH.
posted by honeybee413 at 5:48 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]
I 100% think all of this annexation talk is because he recently learned that the USA is smaller than Russia and Canada and he can't stand the thought of not being president of the BIGGEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
Just imagine if he finds out about Antarctica and decides to annex that as well. An entire continent for the taking!
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:48 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]
Just imagine if he finds out about Antarctica and decides to annex that as well. An entire continent for the taking!
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:48 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]
I feel like the key to guessing when he's bullshitting is to see what other GOP officials share his obsessions. Like, is he going to make life harder for immigrants? For sure, because that's also a GOP obsession. I don't think the MAGAheads have a huge desire to go fight in Greenland.
Panama is a little more worrisome, because interventions in Latin America are something with a long GOP history. But they seem to be more eager for a war with Mexico.
posted by zompist at 5:50 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
Panama is a little more worrisome, because interventions in Latin America are something with a long GOP history. But they seem to be more eager for a war with Mexico.
posted by zompist at 5:50 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
Mittens, we need to get some Cartographers for Social Equality to lobby the WH.
They would be met with the same vacant, slack-jawed stares as would be expected.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:53 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
They would be met with the same vacant, slack-jawed stares as would be expected.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:53 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
In fairness, conquering Greenland will give us...
weather stations!
huh,
"After the collapse of the Third Reich, Albert Speer briefly considered escaping in a small aeroplane to hide out in Greenland, but changed his mind and decided to surrender to the United States Armed Forces."
posted by clavdivs at 5:54 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
weather stations!
huh,
"After the collapse of the Third Reich, Albert Speer briefly considered escaping in a small aeroplane to hide out in Greenland, but changed his mind and decided to surrender to the United States Armed Forces."
posted by clavdivs at 5:54 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
Trump in a nutshell...
says something assanine
everyone talks about it
expands his corruption while everyone is distracted
posted by kokaku at 5:58 PM on January 7 [31 favorites]
says something assanine
everyone talks about it
expands his corruption while everyone is distracted
posted by kokaku at 5:58 PM on January 7 [31 favorites]
"paging doctorine monroe, please report to the stick mouth competition."
posted by clavdivs at 5:58 PM on January 7
posted by clavdivs at 5:58 PM on January 7
I'm no longer going to get worked up about his plans to annex Mars or whatever he's on about this week. I'm going to wait until he actually does something to get mad.
Meanwhile I'm just going to sit in this corner over here and cry silently for four years.
posted by JHarris at 6:04 PM on January 7 [14 favorites]
Meanwhile I'm just going to sit in this corner over here and cry silently for four years.
posted by JHarris at 6:04 PM on January 7 [14 favorites]
I know I won't get this but I would love it if everyone (e.g,. the sources I follow etc.) didn't need to repeat/repost/amplify the crazy. We can't filter the crazy from the real (as several commenters note here) and so that's hard to do, plus I think the OMG look at this factors in all of our media is powerful. I just can't deal with it, and I want to save focus and energy for what I want to prioritize.
posted by stevil at 6:08 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]
posted by stevil at 6:08 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]
stevil, you're totally right. But the thing is that if one is not reading closely enough one may miss all the other posted outrages, and I sort of thought there hadn't been one in a while. Admittedly, I did not doublecheck.
posted by Glinn at 6:18 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Glinn at 6:18 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
Yeah, no disrespect to the poster, but an FPP for every time Trump belches some insanity out of his pie-hole will not be sustainable.
posted by Lemkin at 6:18 PM on January 7 [24 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 6:18 PM on January 7 [24 favorites]
Trump says a lot of shit, you know?
Truth. So much so that I think maybe we have enough claims/outcome pairs now to finetune an LLM that semi-accurately predicts which ones will actually occur?
posted by Ryvar at 6:18 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]
Truth. So much so that I think maybe we have enough claims/outcome pairs now to finetune an LLM that semi-accurately predicts which ones will actually occur?
posted by Ryvar at 6:18 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]
I just can't deal with it, and I want to save focus and energy for what I want to prioritize.
As a Canadian, this is something I'm feeling rather interested in prioritizing.
posted by senor biggles at 6:21 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]
As a Canadian, this is something I'm feeling rather interested in prioritizing.
posted by senor biggles at 6:21 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]
More "fill the space with bullshit" to distract from the real shit.
posted by jjderooy at 6:21 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]
posted by jjderooy at 6:21 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]
...speculation that Trump, unaware of the issues with the Mercator projection, may think Greenland is much more vast than it actually is.
There have been size issues in the past...
"And if they're small, something else must be small. I guarantee you there's no problem. I guarantee."
In all seriousness, I really would like a MGGA hat to go along with my Four Seasons Total Landscaping t-shirt. Even better, I wonder if Lammie would release rights on this illustration. I'd kill to get this printed on a t-shirt and go stylin' in my MGGA hat.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:22 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]
There have been size issues in the past...
"And if they're small, something else must be small. I guarantee you there's no problem. I guarantee."
In all seriousness, I really would like a MGGA hat to go along with my Four Seasons Total Landscaping t-shirt. Even better, I wonder if Lammie would release rights on this illustration. I'd kill to get this printed on a t-shirt and go stylin' in my MGGA hat.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:22 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]
I'm not a Doug Ford fan, but I could get behind this idea: In response to Trump’s trolling, Ontario’s premier says Canada would buy Alaska and Minnesota
posted by Ickster at 6:24 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 6:24 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]
He wants to change the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America. His mind is really deteriorating. And Vance is smart, not addled, and a total fucker, so no comfort there. He's acting like it would be okay to annex/ invade NATO territories. This is real shit from a President-elect.
NYTimes made Biden's age a front page story for days on end. Trump is just raving a lot of the time, his appointments are appalling, he's overtly corrupt, clearly lies all the time, and the papers seem to act like Ho Hum, yeah, this is happening, but it's just the way he is.
I feel gaslighted most of the time, kinda like being married again.
posted by theora55 at 6:26 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]
NYTimes made Biden's age a front page story for days on end. Trump is just raving a lot of the time, his appointments are appalling, he's overtly corrupt, clearly lies all the time, and the papers seem to act like Ho Hum, yeah, this is happening, but it's just the way he is.
I feel gaslighted most of the time, kinda like being married again.
posted by theora55 at 6:26 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]
On the one hand, totally gonzo. On the other, shades of his buddy Putin and Crimea/Ukraine…? (Plus, who’s just nw etc of Canada? Russia!) 😕
posted by mollymillions at 6:31 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by mollymillions at 6:31 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
Please advise the Guardian editorial staff that the technical term of art is "back on his bullshit."
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 6:33 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 6:33 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]
A counterpoint to the sentiment that this is all language, and that it's not action.
It’s almost brilliant in how it works. You can socialize a policy idea and normalize the concept while simultaneously making yourself immune from criticism. If you criticize it after all you’re just being a shrill and annoying lib who can’t take a joke. You leave yourself the decision-space on whether or not to enact a particular course of action until the last possible moment, because if it never happens, well then it was just a joke.posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:34 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]
Think of it like the 2021 buildup of Russian forces on the Ukrainian border—except for political speech...
For f's sake. Another four years of this? Here are the highlights of Donald Trump's press conference this morning.
posted by robbyrobs at 6:34 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
posted by robbyrobs at 6:34 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
Standard Trump playbook. Say absurd things to get the attention back on him.
And the media just laps it up. No wonder he won. He is a master of getting everyone to talk about him.
posted by KaizenSoze at 6:37 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]
And the media just laps it up. No wonder he won. He is a master of getting everyone to talk about him.
posted by KaizenSoze at 6:37 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]
As a resident of Sweden, the dystopian doom-monger in me ponders the logistics of one NATO member state declaring war on another.
posted by hankmajor at 6:40 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
posted by hankmajor at 6:40 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
Between this nonsense and the threat to eliminate the VA, it's like he wants to be on the receiving end of a military coup.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 6:46 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 6:46 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]
Ah yes, the Risk Board Game Doctrine. Trump's going for those sweet, sweet bonus five troops for controlling the entirety of North America.
posted by vverse23 at 6:47 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
posted by vverse23 at 6:47 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
I say he should dream bigger when it comes to renaming the Gulf of Mexico. He should propose renaming the Atlantic the "American Ocean East" and the Pacific the "American Ocean West".
posted by Omon Ra at 6:50 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Omon Ra at 6:50 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
I kind of worry that “America attacks another NATO member” is a scenario that could break NATO entirely. Do we really think the rest of NATO would challenge us? I’d want them to but … look at us.
posted by eirias at 6:52 PM on January 7
posted by eirias at 6:52 PM on January 7
Hell, why not rename the Earth "Planet America" while he's at it.
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:54 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:54 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
Well, they did just announce a Helldivers movie
posted by Apocryphon at 6:57 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 6:57 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
We can't filter the crazy from the real (as several commenters note here)
True, but whatever he plans to profit from is worth taking seriously, though obviously crazy now. Trump is floating wish lists presented to him daily, in this case by oil and mineral extraction companies that already plan on developing a thawing Greenland (slightly bigger than Alaska) and don't want to bid against others (especially Russia and China). Panama is already handling enough US Navy ships that nothing is really at stake except some weird pride issue or renaming.
posted by Brian B. at 6:57 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
True, but whatever he plans to profit from is worth taking seriously, though obviously crazy now. Trump is floating wish lists presented to him daily, in this case by oil and mineral extraction companies that already plan on developing a thawing Greenland (slightly bigger than Alaska) and don't want to bid against others (especially Russia and China). Panama is already handling enough US Navy ships that nothing is really at stake except some weird pride issue or renaming.
posted by Brian B. at 6:57 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
Maybe Norway could take page from Honduras, tell Trump to shut up or they'll close Pituffik Space Base (formerly Thule).
No worries though, he's just a blustery chuckelhead. The problem is his ass kissing minions can do alot of damage.
posted by Marky at 6:58 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
No worries though, he's just a blustery chuckelhead. The problem is his ass kissing minions can do alot of damage.
posted by Marky at 6:58 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
The only way I'll get through the next few years is by seeing every Trump fiasco as good news. The worse things get for America, the more likely it is that the swine will get clobbered in the mid-terms. So, here's to Trump fucking things up real good! Bad news is good news! Bring on the scandals, wars, pandemics and famine!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:59 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:59 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
The man didn’t even get a big beautiful military parade last time around, people are fixating on the shiny impossibilities while all of the mundane bureaucratic policy are getting quietly done by the evil vizier types.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:00 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 7:00 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
Lifehack: Identify the Crimean Peninsula in your life and just take it.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:00 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:00 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
"why not rename the Earth "Planet America"
How about a huge gold sign on the Moon, "Trumpworld"
posted by Marky at 7:02 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
How about a huge gold sign on the Moon, "Trumpworld"
posted by Marky at 7:02 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
The moon label probably would only get as far as "TRU"
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:06 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:06 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]
He would greatly prefer we talk about this nonsense, instead of the tax cuts for the rich, the deportations, the dismantling of the administrative state, the post office, etc.
If however it comes to pass that Trump tries to take over Greenland or something like that, I propose all of us Americans simply stop. We stop doing anything, going to work, buying things, paying taxes, rent, you name it. We peacefully shut the whole thing down, and spend all our time taking care of of our neighbors who might need food or medical attention during such a tough time.
I give it a week or two at most before such an event would topple the government and restore some sense of order.
If you really want to prepare for such an event, get to know your neighbors, figure out who might need help, stockpile some food and medicine if you can, maybe enough to take care of those neighbors you are getting to know.
We do not need to overthrow trump with guns and violence, we can simply grind to a halt the machinery of capitalism that is propping him up, the other plutocrats will turn on him immediately, and we can use their own greed against him.
Good luck out there folks, this is going to be a rough 4 (or more) years, and then another rough century or two after because we are not going to be doing anything but making climate change worse for the next 4 years. Now more than ever we are going to have to stick together and take care of each other to get through this.
posted by stilgar at 7:43 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]
If however it comes to pass that Trump tries to take over Greenland or something like that, I propose all of us Americans simply stop. We stop doing anything, going to work, buying things, paying taxes, rent, you name it. We peacefully shut the whole thing down, and spend all our time taking care of of our neighbors who might need food or medical attention during such a tough time.
I give it a week or two at most before such an event would topple the government and restore some sense of order.
If you really want to prepare for such an event, get to know your neighbors, figure out who might need help, stockpile some food and medicine if you can, maybe enough to take care of those neighbors you are getting to know.
We do not need to overthrow trump with guns and violence, we can simply grind to a halt the machinery of capitalism that is propping him up, the other plutocrats will turn on him immediately, and we can use their own greed against him.
Good luck out there folks, this is going to be a rough 4 (or more) years, and then another rough century or two after because we are not going to be doing anything but making climate change worse for the next 4 years. Now more than ever we are going to have to stick together and take care of each other to get through this.
posted by stilgar at 7:43 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]
Trump, as you say, says a lot of shit. And the last time he was in office he and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't even figure out how to axe Obamacare, and it was hilarious and heartening watching the whole crew of them trying to find their assholes with both hands.
Conversely, these guys are in bed with Putin, who I sometimes think might let the missiles fly when he's on his deathbed just because why wouldn't he.
In short, I think we're in new territory with few rules, and "that would be unbelievably stupid and catastrophic for everybody" is no longer a reason why a given thing probably won't happen.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:49 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
Conversely, these guys are in bed with Putin, who I sometimes think might let the missiles fly when he's on his deathbed just because why wouldn't he.
In short, I think we're in new territory with few rules, and "that would be unbelievably stupid and catastrophic for everybody" is no longer a reason why a given thing probably won't happen.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:49 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]
Stilgar, people a couple threads back are insisting that it’s completely impossible to exist without Facebook, and you think that an organized, sustained general strike by a large enough group of people to grind the country to a halt is even in the realm of possibility? I admire your optimism.
posted by HVACDC_Bag at 7:55 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]
posted by HVACDC_Bag at 7:55 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]
He says crazy things to
- float ideas and see what the response is. If people take something insane seriously and it turns out there's support for it, fun for him! And if all those people who hate him and think he's an idiot get worked up and distracted by the latest crazy thing he's said, and end up splitting their energy because they're chasing all these stupid leads to and fro, and his fanbase gets all worked up and offended by people talking about how he's an insane idiot, so much the better!
- destabilize the thinking of powerful actors ("crazy like a fox") and make them insecure, thus increasing their desperation to keep him from harming them, so they become weaker negotiators and he/the US has a stronger hand
- make everyone so afraid and insecure that they "serve the Fuhrer"/roll over for him easily (see Bezos, Meta, the entire GOP, etc.)
- weaken the (relative) bastions of anti-authoritarian values (e.g. the EU, UK, UN, Canada, NATO, etc.), a goal that sure dovetails nicely with Putin's
- keep the spotlight on him, feed his ego, divert attention from scandals and failures, reinforce the global impression that the world revolves around him and his image as a strong man.
I said he does those thing in order to get those results, but I'm not sure how much of this is actually intentional or whether, like with a neural net, the world sort of inadvertently rewarded this approach and he kind of vaguely sensed it and adapted to that; or whether he really is succumbing to dementia and is more brainless LLM at this point than not. But however intentional his approach is, those seem to be the results.
Almost none of those results is inevitable. If we lived in a world where most people in power called his bluffs and were effective in strengthening their own hands, and the media didn't either treat him like a god (right-wing media) or chase after him mindlessly like a cat chasing a laser pointer (the rest of the media), he would have far less actual power. It's like that fantasy-genre trope of gods gaining actual godly powers the more believers they have and losing them the more believers they lose. But most of the people who have actual power seem to be real cowards and/or ineffective operators, so the question for the rest of us is how much we should ignore the laser pointer versus follow it so we know when the laser does start burning things, or is increasingly apt to. (I really don't know.)
posted by trig at 8:09 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]
- float ideas and see what the response is. If people take something insane seriously and it turns out there's support for it, fun for him! And if all those people who hate him and think he's an idiot get worked up and distracted by the latest crazy thing he's said, and end up splitting their energy because they're chasing all these stupid leads to and fro, and his fanbase gets all worked up and offended by people talking about how he's an insane idiot, so much the better!
- destabilize the thinking of powerful actors ("crazy like a fox") and make them insecure, thus increasing their desperation to keep him from harming them, so they become weaker negotiators and he/the US has a stronger hand
- make everyone so afraid and insecure that they "serve the Fuhrer"/roll over for him easily (see Bezos, Meta, the entire GOP, etc.)
- weaken the (relative) bastions of anti-authoritarian values (e.g. the EU, UK, UN, Canada, NATO, etc.), a goal that sure dovetails nicely with Putin's
- keep the spotlight on him, feed his ego, divert attention from scandals and failures, reinforce the global impression that the world revolves around him and his image as a strong man.
I said he does those thing in order to get those results, but I'm not sure how much of this is actually intentional or whether, like with a neural net, the world sort of inadvertently rewarded this approach and he kind of vaguely sensed it and adapted to that; or whether he really is succumbing to dementia and is more brainless LLM at this point than not. But however intentional his approach is, those seem to be the results.
Almost none of those results is inevitable. If we lived in a world where most people in power called his bluffs and were effective in strengthening their own hands, and the media didn't either treat him like a god (right-wing media) or chase after him mindlessly like a cat chasing a laser pointer (the rest of the media), he would have far less actual power. It's like that fantasy-genre trope of gods gaining actual godly powers the more believers they have and losing them the more believers they lose. But most of the people who have actual power seem to be real cowards and/or ineffective operators, so the question for the rest of us is how much we should ignore the laser pointer versus follow it so we know when the laser does start burning things, or is increasingly apt to. (I really don't know.)
posted by trig at 8:09 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]
Trump has talked about Greenland before,.somehow, someone said something to him about it and the idea stuck. He doesn't play his cards close to his chest. Ditto Panama Canal. Everyone so certain that he won't do it wants certainty that there are guardrails.
Disrupting NATO is clearly in Russia's interest, and while Camp century is abandoned, there might be other assests in the ice or below it.
But more to the point. Who is going to stop him? Your answer to that needs to be less implausible than his belief that Anschluss with Canada and playing monopoly with Panama and Greenland would cement his legacy. He will sell the 52 star flags with two golden stars.
I don't know what he will do, but I do no that the supreme court and the law won't stop him, nor the generals and nat guard, nor the senate and house, nor the media and tech companies, nor the democrats.... So that leaves ...
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 8:11 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
Disrupting NATO is clearly in Russia's interest, and while Camp century is abandoned, there might be other assests in the ice or below it.
But more to the point. Who is going to stop him? Your answer to that needs to be less implausible than his belief that Anschluss with Canada and playing monopoly with Panama and Greenland would cement his legacy. He will sell the 52 star flags with two golden stars.
I don't know what he will do, but I do no that the supreme court and the law won't stop him, nor the generals and nat guard, nor the senate and house, nor the media and tech companies, nor the democrats.... So that leaves ...
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 8:11 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]
I think it's also important to note here, that he was specifically set up to say this by a journalist. He was asked if he'd rule out the use of military force, and the reason he was asked that was that he'd probably say something like this, and then the media could get a good news cycle about it.
If Trump had spontaneously brought up the idea of using military force against Greenland or Panama, that would be more alarming. As it stands, the story is just "A reporter teed up Trump to say something outrageous, and he happily provided."
posted by vibratory manner of working at 8:13 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]
If Trump had spontaneously brought up the idea of using military force against Greenland or Panama, that would be more alarming. As it stands, the story is just "A reporter teed up Trump to say something outrageous, and he happily provided."
posted by vibratory manner of working at 8:13 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]
Don't feed the troll, people.
posted by zardoz at 8:26 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 8:26 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
It sounds silly about Greenland but my guess is that someone has been in his ear about the valuable minerals under all that ice. It’s a sparsely populated land, I can see why it seems appealing. Resource rich and not that many people. (I don’t endorse this line of thinking but I just wanted to point out that “occupying Greenland” is not quite the senile hallucination that some take it to be.)
posted by stowaway at 8:50 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]
posted by stowaway at 8:50 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]
Trump threat[ens] to annex Canada.
Canuck off!
posted by New Frontier at 10:17 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
Canuck off!
posted by New Frontier at 10:17 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
I was prepared for Trump kicking Ukraine over the brink and dropping allies left and right.
But actually going the same route as Xi and Putin and annexing countries didn't occur to me.
Although... it makes sense he needs to compare dicks.
posted by uncle harold at 10:47 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
But actually going the same route as Xi and Putin and annexing countries didn't occur to me.
Although... it makes sense he needs to compare dicks.
posted by uncle harold at 10:47 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
I think you mean, "Canuck off, eh!"
posted by mephisjo at 10:48 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
posted by mephisjo at 10:48 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
If the US invaded Greenland (Denmark) it would trigger article 5 of NATO .... the US would find itself at war with Europe (and Canada).
Which would be interesting because the US Space Force (groan) actually has the "Pituffik Space Base" in Greenland (which famously includes the Air Force, or possibly now space force's only tugboat)
posted by mbo at 11:12 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
Which would be interesting because the US Space Force (groan) actually has the "Pituffik Space Base" in Greenland (which famously includes the Air Force, or possibly now space force's only tugboat)
posted by mbo at 11:12 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
If the US invaded Greenland (Denmark) it would trigger article 5 of NATO .... the US would find itself at war with Europe (and Canada).
And with itself... heck, the U.S. won't even need to fuel its ICBMs, it can just detonate them right there in the silos in Greenland, no need to take off at all.
(No, I don't think article five is made for inter-NATO conflict. See also: Cyprus)
posted by uncle harold at 11:25 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
And with itself... heck, the U.S. won't even need to fuel its ICBMs, it can just detonate them right there in the silos in Greenland, no need to take off at all.
(No, I don't think article five is made for inter-NATO conflict. See also: Cyprus)
posted by uncle harold at 11:25 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]
mittens:
"I can do that, but I don't want to." -- Bartholomew Jojo Simpson
posted by BiggerJ at 11:26 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
"I can do that, but I don't want to." -- Bartholomew Jojo Simpson
posted by BiggerJ at 11:26 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]
Funny how this 2015 video from Nerdwriter still holds up: “How Donald Trump Answers a Question ”
posted by Apocryphon
Watching the first bit of that video (the interview with Jimmy Kimmel), what strikes me most is how much more coherent Trump was 9 years ago. I mean, reprehensible, for sure, but able to put together a coherent sentence. I know that’s not an original observation or anything, but the comparison is scary when you actually go back and watch something from 2016.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:38 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon
Watching the first bit of that video (the interview with Jimmy Kimmel), what strikes me most is how much more coherent Trump was 9 years ago. I mean, reprehensible, for sure, but able to put together a coherent sentence. I know that’s not an original observation or anything, but the comparison is scary when you actually go back and watch something from 2016.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:38 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]
Maybe Norway could take page from Honduras, tell Trump to shut up or they'll close Pituffik Space Base (formerly Thule).
Greenland is part of the Kingdom of Denmark, so I'm not sure how the Norwegians would be involved.
It's a sad state of affairs that Greenlanders aren't in a position to make their own decisions about things like this, really. Boo colonialism!
posted by Dysk at 11:47 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
Greenland is part of the Kingdom of Denmark, so I'm not sure how the Norwegians would be involved.
It's a sad state of affairs that Greenlanders aren't in a position to make their own decisions about things like this, really. Boo colonialism!
posted by Dysk at 11:47 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]
Drought in Panama is disrupting global shipping. These 7 graphics show how (BBC)
It'll become worse if the drought worsens, but at least so far the cannal worked fine by simply charging ships more.
"What is true is that the Panama Canal drought slowed down cargo traffic, with canal detours that substantially increased shipping days and added significantly to shipping prices. However, in fiscal year 2023 the Panama Canal Authority moved their third highest tonnage in Canal history, with just 1.5% fewer goods moved than the highest tonnage year in 2022."
"Despite the drought hype, tonnage moved through the Canal did not decline dramatically; instead, the Panama Canal Authority appears to have maximized the available water for cargo tonnage."
Also, the locals want this fresh water too, for agriculture etc. Trump is a bnunch of hot air, but likely he says this because some American buisnesses want to pay less. A successful CIA run coup in Panama or similar would mean higher food prices for Panamanians, sp then one solution for Panamanians would be to sabatoge the cannal somehow.
I've no idea where the Canada and Greenland stupidiy originates.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:18 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
It'll become worse if the drought worsens, but at least so far the cannal worked fine by simply charging ships more.
"What is true is that the Panama Canal drought slowed down cargo traffic, with canal detours that substantially increased shipping days and added significantly to shipping prices. However, in fiscal year 2023 the Panama Canal Authority moved their third highest tonnage in Canal history, with just 1.5% fewer goods moved than the highest tonnage year in 2022."
"Despite the drought hype, tonnage moved through the Canal did not decline dramatically; instead, the Panama Canal Authority appears to have maximized the available water for cargo tonnage."
Also, the locals want this fresh water too, for agriculture etc. Trump is a bnunch of hot air, but likely he says this because some American buisnesses want to pay less. A successful CIA run coup in Panama or similar would mean higher food prices for Panamanians, sp then one solution for Panamanians would be to sabatoge the cannal somehow.
I've no idea where the Canada and Greenland stupidiy originates.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:18 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
jeffburdges: The Canada stupidity originated entirely from Trump's dumb joke to Trudeau over dinner, and the reaction it got.
This is not dissimilar to the theory about Trump's tariff obsession beginning when he accidentally blurted out something about tariffs during a debate, resulting in him repeatedly doubling down on it to avoid looking foolish or weak.
posted by BiggerJ at 12:29 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
This is not dissimilar to the theory about Trump's tariff obsession beginning when he accidentally blurted out something about tariffs during a debate, resulting in him repeatedly doubling down on it to avoid looking foolish or weak.
posted by BiggerJ at 12:29 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
He wants to rule Greenland so he can lock up all those criminal ice sheet gangs that are on record as having made credible threats to flood Mar-a-Lago.
posted by flabdablet at 12:57 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:57 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
Our present situation is one where all systems fail at once - the very processes of financialization, deunionization and monopoly that brought us Trump have also totally destroyed our media. Invading Panama or Greenland or Canada, using Elon Musk to demolish the government and other idiotic ramblings are only going to come to pass if they are puffed up in the media as real things that Trump can do. (I don't think we're going to invade Canada.). They're puffed up because our media is so completely fucked up and shareholder oriented that clicks are all that matter, no matter what the bad consequences. Even if individual reporters understand this, they are not in a position to change how the news is promoted.
It's not just Facebook or Telegram or whatever, it's the regular media. Setting Trump up to make a dangerous, stupid click-bait statement has got to be as bad as any individual Facebook action.
God, it just kills me to see how this has all been set up and locked in over the course of my entire life. We did it, we ate the seed corn, we knocked out the supporting walls, as a society we did everything we could to make society into a precarious jenga tower to make the line go up, and now everything is falling down at once. People knew this was coming but just went on, and the further civil society was weakened, the harder it was to stop going along with it. When was the last actual off ramp? Probably back in the nineties, all this was locked in since the Clinton administration.
posted by Frowner at 1:12 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]
It's not just Facebook or Telegram or whatever, it's the regular media. Setting Trump up to make a dangerous, stupid click-bait statement has got to be as bad as any individual Facebook action.
God, it just kills me to see how this has all been set up and locked in over the course of my entire life. We did it, we ate the seed corn, we knocked out the supporting walls, as a society we did everything we could to make society into a precarious jenga tower to make the line go up, and now everything is falling down at once. People knew this was coming but just went on, and the further civil society was weakened, the harder it was to stop going along with it. When was the last actual off ramp? Probably back in the nineties, all this was locked in since the Clinton administration.
posted by Frowner at 1:12 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]
Trump has secured what he most needs – complete immunity for his life of shameless crime and destruction. Assuming he even lasts four years, he will be too old and way too addled at that point to face any meaningful accountability. And that is making the bold assumption the USA is going to have a free and fair election ever again.
The rest for him now is just indulging in whatever insane greedy narcissistic vindictive obsession he has this week.
He won the game, people. The blatant malignant corrupt clown of a con man fucking won. He got away with it.
All that is left is to try limiting the damage he does in his last grand parade for the ages.
In case there are any MAGAts reading this, you lost too, just as much as the rest of us. You just don't realise it yet.
posted by Pouteria at 2:08 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]
The rest for him now is just indulging in whatever insane greedy narcissistic vindictive obsession he has this week.
He won the game, people. The blatant malignant corrupt clown of a con man fucking won. He got away with it.
All that is left is to try limiting the damage he does in his last grand parade for the ages.
In case there are any MAGAts reading this, you lost too, just as much as the rest of us. You just don't realise it yet.
posted by Pouteria at 2:08 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]
In case there are any MAGAts reading this
I would offer you my sympathy as the first victims of TFG's long con, but I have none left after spending it all on those whom your avid complicity in that obnoxious, gross, repulsive and overwhelmingly obvious swindle has already hurt worse than you will ever be.
Had any of you chosen to devote five minutes at some point in your miserable existence to working up even an embryonic kernel of critical thinking skills, he wouldn't have been able to take you for the marks and rubes you have now become. You have clearly failed to make even that tiny nod in the direction of social responsibility, and for that you richly deserve all of the crushing disappointment that the immediate future will doubtless bring you.
posted by flabdablet at 2:41 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]
I would offer you my sympathy as the first victims of TFG's long con, but I have none left after spending it all on those whom your avid complicity in that obnoxious, gross, repulsive and overwhelmingly obvious swindle has already hurt worse than you will ever be.
Had any of you chosen to devote five minutes at some point in your miserable existence to working up even an embryonic kernel of critical thinking skills, he wouldn't have been able to take you for the marks and rubes you have now become. You have clearly failed to make even that tiny nod in the direction of social responsibility, and for that you richly deserve all of the crushing disappointment that the immediate future will doubtless bring you.
posted by flabdablet at 2:41 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]
He won the game, people. The blatant malignant corrupt clown of a con man fucking won. He got away with it.
If you're referring to the game set up specifically for the benefit of wealthy old white male property owners from the get-go: no real surprise there.
He's been playing that game strictly by its unwritten rules for his whole worthless life, even though being the utter fuckwit he is, he has shown a tendency to piss off the other players by occasionally writing an unwritten rule out for all to see.
posted by flabdablet at 2:50 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]
If you're referring to the game set up specifically for the benefit of wealthy old white male property owners from the get-go: no real surprise there.
He's been playing that game strictly by its unwritten rules for his whole worthless life, even though being the utter fuckwit he is, he has shown a tendency to piss off the other players by occasionally writing an unwritten rule out for all to see.
posted by flabdablet at 2:50 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]
complete immunity for his life of shameless crime and destruction
Thirty-four felony convictions ⇒ unconditional discharge.
Makes him sound like a national urinary tract infection, which I guess is fair; those frequently do cause demented people to act extra confused.
posted by flabdablet at 2:57 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Thirty-four felony convictions ⇒ unconditional discharge.
Makes him sound like a national urinary tract infection, which I guess is fair; those frequently do cause demented people to act extra confused.
posted by flabdablet at 2:57 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Well, people in Greenland and Denmark are worried, not least after Jr.'s visit yesterday. It seems obvious that no-one knows what to say or do.
I don't think Trump will invade Greenland, or Panama. Even this congress can't be stupid enough to let him do it, and I don't see the USAF going there either. BUT, Greenland is in a vulnerable situation right now, and there could be enough voters who could fall for the whole Trump/Musk BS shtick.
It's a sad state of affairs that Greenlanders aren't in a position to make their own decisions about things like this, really. Boo colonialism!
Well, yes, boo colonialism, but Greenland will never be able to defend itself. There are about 57.000 inhabitants, and a bit less than 20.000 of these live in Nuuk. A lot of the country is empty, and that is not only about the ice cap. Lots of small villages (bygder) along the coast have been abandoned because people prefer having access to healthcare and education and insulated homes.
Right now, for the first time, the Danish armed forces are recruiting Greenlanders, so they can eventually form the core of Greenlandic defense, but even if there was a strong recruitment (which there is not), there will never be enough Greenlanders to do this on their own, and perhaps more importantly, they will never have the resources to buy the necessary equipement.
Imagine a small town of 57.000 people. They need doctors and nurses and teachers and a city administration and people to work in the shops and maintain the roads and so on. In a small town, you can depend on the state and federal governments to provide a lot of services, not least defence. But an independent Greenland would have to manage all this alone. It is just not possible.
So Greenland has to choose between rocks and hard places. Potential defense allies are Denmark, Norway, Canada and the US. For most Greenlandic politicians, the US is ruled out because of its ongoing treatment of First Nations peoples across the country (not just in Alaska). But among the wider population, this isn't as much of an issue. A lot of older Greenlanders are not well educated -- this is one issue where boo colonialism comes in. And for the politicians, this means they have to tread carefully in order to get elected.
I think Denmark, Norway and Canada are on a par in that regard -- Norway never had colonies, but the way they still treat the Sami is not OK. However, Denmark is the country with the history in Greenland, and that means Danish politicians also have to tread very carefully. I think that is why they are upping the King's game. He is very popular in Greenland, because he obviously genuinely cares a lot about the people and the country. Greenland is where he came into his own as an adult, it's not the usual royal posturing. But he is a constitutional monarch, with no power. His actions can only be symbolic. I'm guessing he will be visiting Greenland and also having dinner with Trump this year, but it's just a guess.
Greenlanders like to say that the reason they are dependent on the fishing industry is colonialism. But the real reason is the conditions. There have been mines up there, (think of Ms Smilla), but it has been too expensive to extract ressources because of the harsh climate. Now, because of the trade conflict with China, climate change and technological development, mining for rare minerals becomes more feasible. About a decade ago, the Chinese bid for a ressource extraction license but the Danish Government blocked it for strategic reasons. Hence the Greenlandic notion that the Danes are stilting development. I get it, but we already have a lot of Chinese industrial spionage in Denmark. Thousands of Chinese (and probably North Koreans) among the tiny population of Greenland does not seem smart to me. And it is telling that no western companies have bid. It's still a very long haul with a lot of risk involved.
"Buying" Greenland doesn't necessarily mean writing Denmark a check or trading it with the Virgin Islands, as Trump originally proposed. It could mean offering the Greenlandic government a yearly block sum that for instance could be double the amount of the current support from Denmark. This already resonates with some Greenlanders. (Though I'm pretty sure Denmark would pay up, maybe with EU support). And again, Greenlandic politicians know well that this would be part of the dysfunctional American congress' yearly budget considerations.
But after all this background, I want to point to the good old question: qui bono? For all intents and purposes, the US already has Greenland. It has an airbase, and it could get all the mineral extraction licenses for US companies it wants. Denmark is one of the US' strongest allies, on a par with the UK. We went into the goddamn idiotic Iraq war with relatively more soldiers pr. capita than any other nation.
So if there is a sane-ish reason for annexing Greenland, or persuading Greenlanders to become a de facto US colony (don't imagine they will get statehood, they are all socialists), it is to disrupt the international order. And who wants to disrupt the international order? The unholy alliance of the tech bros, the Russian government and the mess of all the other oil-producing nations who are trying to gather as much wealth as possible before everything burns. I wonder what they plan to do with all that money when the shopping malls in Dubai are flooded?
posted by mumimor at 3:34 AM on January 8 [73 favorites]
I don't think Trump will invade Greenland, or Panama. Even this congress can't be stupid enough to let him do it, and I don't see the USAF going there either. BUT, Greenland is in a vulnerable situation right now, and there could be enough voters who could fall for the whole Trump/Musk BS shtick.
It's a sad state of affairs that Greenlanders aren't in a position to make their own decisions about things like this, really. Boo colonialism!
Well, yes, boo colonialism, but Greenland will never be able to defend itself. There are about 57.000 inhabitants, and a bit less than 20.000 of these live in Nuuk. A lot of the country is empty, and that is not only about the ice cap. Lots of small villages (bygder) along the coast have been abandoned because people prefer having access to healthcare and education and insulated homes.
Right now, for the first time, the Danish armed forces are recruiting Greenlanders, so they can eventually form the core of Greenlandic defense, but even if there was a strong recruitment (which there is not), there will never be enough Greenlanders to do this on their own, and perhaps more importantly, they will never have the resources to buy the necessary equipement.
Imagine a small town of 57.000 people. They need doctors and nurses and teachers and a city administration and people to work in the shops and maintain the roads and so on. In a small town, you can depend on the state and federal governments to provide a lot of services, not least defence. But an independent Greenland would have to manage all this alone. It is just not possible.
So Greenland has to choose between rocks and hard places. Potential defense allies are Denmark, Norway, Canada and the US. For most Greenlandic politicians, the US is ruled out because of its ongoing treatment of First Nations peoples across the country (not just in Alaska). But among the wider population, this isn't as much of an issue. A lot of older Greenlanders are not well educated -- this is one issue where boo colonialism comes in. And for the politicians, this means they have to tread carefully in order to get elected.
I think Denmark, Norway and Canada are on a par in that regard -- Norway never had colonies, but the way they still treat the Sami is not OK. However, Denmark is the country with the history in Greenland, and that means Danish politicians also have to tread very carefully. I think that is why they are upping the King's game. He is very popular in Greenland, because he obviously genuinely cares a lot about the people and the country. Greenland is where he came into his own as an adult, it's not the usual royal posturing. But he is a constitutional monarch, with no power. His actions can only be symbolic. I'm guessing he will be visiting Greenland and also having dinner with Trump this year, but it's just a guess.
Greenlanders like to say that the reason they are dependent on the fishing industry is colonialism. But the real reason is the conditions. There have been mines up there, (think of Ms Smilla), but it has been too expensive to extract ressources because of the harsh climate. Now, because of the trade conflict with China, climate change and technological development, mining for rare minerals becomes more feasible. About a decade ago, the Chinese bid for a ressource extraction license but the Danish Government blocked it for strategic reasons. Hence the Greenlandic notion that the Danes are stilting development. I get it, but we already have a lot of Chinese industrial spionage in Denmark. Thousands of Chinese (and probably North Koreans) among the tiny population of Greenland does not seem smart to me. And it is telling that no western companies have bid. It's still a very long haul with a lot of risk involved.
"Buying" Greenland doesn't necessarily mean writing Denmark a check or trading it with the Virgin Islands, as Trump originally proposed. It could mean offering the Greenlandic government a yearly block sum that for instance could be double the amount of the current support from Denmark. This already resonates with some Greenlanders. (Though I'm pretty sure Denmark would pay up, maybe with EU support). And again, Greenlandic politicians know well that this would be part of the dysfunctional American congress' yearly budget considerations.
But after all this background, I want to point to the good old question: qui bono? For all intents and purposes, the US already has Greenland. It has an airbase, and it could get all the mineral extraction licenses for US companies it wants. Denmark is one of the US' strongest allies, on a par with the UK. We went into the goddamn idiotic Iraq war with relatively more soldiers pr. capita than any other nation.
So if there is a sane-ish reason for annexing Greenland, or persuading Greenlanders to become a de facto US colony (don't imagine they will get statehood, they are all socialists), it is to disrupt the international order. And who wants to disrupt the international order? The unholy alliance of the tech bros, the Russian government and the mess of all the other oil-producing nations who are trying to gather as much wealth as possible before everything burns. I wonder what they plan to do with all that money when the shopping malls in Dubai are flooded?
posted by mumimor at 3:34 AM on January 8 [73 favorites]
Standard Trump playbook. Say absurd things to get the attention back on him.
And the media just laps it up. No wonder he won. He is a master of getting everyone to talk about him.
Absolutely. And we fall for it every time, regardless of whether or not you are right or left leaning. We wait breathlessly for whatever crazy shit he says instead of shoring up our own vulnerable communities. I expect there will likely be multiple Trump FPPs posts daily after the inauguration.
posted by Kitteh at 4:04 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
And the media just laps it up. No wonder he won. He is a master of getting everyone to talk about him.
Absolutely. And we fall for it every time, regardless of whether or not you are right or left leaning. We wait breathlessly for whatever crazy shit he says instead of shoring up our own vulnerable communities. I expect there will likely be multiple Trump FPPs posts daily after the inauguration.
posted by Kitteh at 4:04 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
We wait breathlessly for whatever crazy shit he says instead of shoring up our own vulnerable communities.
The central skill that meditation builds is that of noting a distraction without judgement, then promptly restoring attention to the focus of the practice. So perhaps Mefi could have a Fuckwit Pronouncements Counter on the front page that any member could click to make the number go up, as a low-effort substitute for actually making or responding to a post about whatever reeking steaming pile has just tumbled from the puckered face-asshole on any given day.
posted by flabdablet at 4:13 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]
The central skill that meditation builds is that of noting a distraction without judgement, then promptly restoring attention to the focus of the practice. So perhaps Mefi could have a Fuckwit Pronouncements Counter on the front page that any member could click to make the number go up, as a low-effort substitute for actually making or responding to a post about whatever reeking steaming pile has just tumbled from the puckered face-asshole on any given day.
posted by flabdablet at 4:13 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]
the number one thing he's trying to distract people from is the great pardon dilemma he is facing on his first day of office
pardon them all and try to rewrite history with half the country angry and unwilling to cooperate as there wouldn't be even a semblance of an honest system left
don't pardon them and the extreme right calls him a traitor to the movement and bad things happen
and causing international strife over bullshit issues is his method of trying to cover it up - if he can manufacture a crisis, he can get everyone stressing over that - he thinks
posted by pyramid termite at 4:15 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
pardon them all and try to rewrite history with half the country angry and unwilling to cooperate as there wouldn't be even a semblance of an honest system left
don't pardon them and the extreme right calls him a traitor to the movement and bad things happen
and causing international strife over bullshit issues is his method of trying to cover it up - if he can manufacture a crisis, he can get everyone stressing over that - he thinks
posted by pyramid termite at 4:15 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
How is that a dilemma? The first option is obviously what he'll pick. The half that are angry and unwilling to cooperate has just proven itself to be slightly less than half, and is in any case the half that this fucker lives to infuriate.
posted by flabdablet at 4:19 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:19 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
Well, yes, boo colonialism, but Greenland will never be able to defend itself.
Yes, hence why I said their own decisions, not with their own capacity.
I'm still wrong, mind! - from further reading, I believe they do now actually have the ability to make decisions about this after the 2021 self-rule laws, if I'm reading right? Which is great!
posted by Dysk at 4:58 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Yes, hence why I said their own decisions, not with their own capacity.
I'm still wrong, mind! - from further reading, I believe they do now actually have the ability to make decisions about this after the 2021 self-rule laws, if I'm reading right? Which is great!
posted by Dysk at 4:58 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
flabdablet has it, its not 3d chess, its not a feint. Why wouldn't trump reward loyalty and signal to everyone else that if they obey him, they can do so above the law. Thats a win for him. That it would also cause much pearl clutching in the "i clutch pearls but can't stop using twitter or facebook or homedepot" crowd, well thats just icing on the cake. Those pearl clutchers will be back to their self-care sabbaticals from action like they always are. The goal of democrats was to get back to not having to care about all this, the goal of republicans is to dominate their opponents, run grift and reverse rhe 20th century. They are energized. Greenland and Panama better have a plan B that isnn't just " surely this".
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 5:01 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 5:01 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
@mumimor gets it. Did you know there's a company stock up ~300% precisely since the US elections, whose only claim for consideration is the $10 billion USD lawsuit it's filed against Greenland and Denmark? Some people obviously think the probability of winning is non-zero - maybe not the full amount, but maybe a few billions. Now, anything above $1b would exceed the annual budget of Greenland and the full amount would be 10% of the Danish government's. With the economic slump Europe is suffering, would the Danish people agree to foot the bill?
What if the US then supported Greenlandic independence (it can unilaterally declare it since 2009) with the promise of a loan covering the losses, and heavy military/mining investment ? That's only one of the many strange but not completely improbable scenario that could happen.
We're through the looking glass, geopolitically. I would not take the 20th century borders for a given anymore.
Also, with Trudeau gone, "and then there were none" is close to completion: only Macron and Starmer are still standing, and barely so. Most of Europe is already painted brown.
posted by dragondollar at 5:05 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
What if the US then supported Greenlandic independence (it can unilaterally declare it since 2009) with the promise of a loan covering the losses, and heavy military/mining investment ? That's only one of the many strange but not completely improbable scenario that could happen.
We're through the looking glass, geopolitically. I would not take the 20th century borders for a given anymore.
Also, with Trudeau gone, "and then there were none" is close to completion: only Macron and Starmer are still standing, and barely so. Most of Europe is already painted brown.
posted by dragondollar at 5:05 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
I believe they do now actually have the ability to make decisions about this after the 2021 self-rule laws, if I'm reading right? Which is great!
They can call a referendum for independence and vote out of the Danish commonwealth. Then they can negotiate with any potential allies about defence. This is why I worry mostly about Trumpian populism including all the lies and promises, and Muskian manipulation.
Trump himself is a sort of idiot savant, and probably in the pockets of Putin. But he has advisors who knows what they are doing.
posted by mumimor at 5:09 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
They can call a referendum for independence and vote out of the Danish commonwealth. Then they can negotiate with any potential allies about defence. This is why I worry mostly about Trumpian populism including all the lies and promises, and Muskian manipulation.
Trump himself is a sort of idiot savant, and probably in the pockets of Putin. But he has advisors who knows what they are doing.
posted by mumimor at 5:09 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Trump Jr’s Greenland visit included appearances at controversial colonial landmarks
Thus the Guardian. No explanations given. Anyone?
posted by BWA at 5:11 AM on January 8
Thus the Guardian. No explanations given. Anyone?
posted by BWA at 5:11 AM on January 8
He posed next to a sculpture of the original colonizer, Hans Egede. I don't know that there were other things. But it does demonstrate that he wasn't there for the good.
posted by mumimor at 5:14 AM on January 8
posted by mumimor at 5:14 AM on January 8
Ah, got it, thank you.. I see in digging a bit that the Danish coat of arms elevated Greenland's status last month, but also that there's still an independence movement. Wheels within wheels.
posted by BWA at 5:23 AM on January 8
posted by BWA at 5:23 AM on January 8
Did you know there's a company stock up ~300% precisely since the US elections, whose only claim for consideration is the $10 billion USD lawsuit it's filed against Greenland and Denmark?
More about the lawsuit. It's a blog, but is the blog of a very well regarded journalist and expert on Arctic matters.
posted by mumimor at 5:34 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
More about the lawsuit. It's a blog, but is the blog of a very well regarded journalist and expert on Arctic matters.
posted by mumimor at 5:34 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
Trump invading Greenland is about as likely as Russia invading the Donbas region.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:08 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 6:08 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
another article about that lawsuit - very interesting
posted by pyramid termite at 6:11 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 6:11 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
In a theoretical world where Trump decides to annex Canada, he would need to pull back US troops stationed overseas. For example, in Europe and Asia. That would create wide openings for Putin, Xi and Kim to do their own annexations.
posted by rednikki at 6:42 AM on January 8
posted by rednikki at 6:42 AM on January 8
I find it hard to estimate the chances Trump will follow through on the more ridiculous ideas like these. However, I am aware that his administration will not have very many people who tamp down his whims -- as unpleasant as I find John Kelly and Jim Mattis, I do believe they were a moderating factor. Enough has changed since the first term so that I'm not willing to predict similar outcomes automatically.
posted by Bryant at 6:49 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]
posted by Bryant at 6:49 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]
Remember when Trump sent “the feds” into Chicago after promising to do so
posted by Apocryphon at 7:03 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 7:03 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
(I don't think we're going to invade Canada.)
It won't have to be an invasion. He reacted so stutteringly negative when a reporter asked him about military force in Canada because he has already been briefed on the plan. Here's how it would go down:
- PP will continue with his "no way, Donald" rhetoric until he is elected
- Post-election, he will start a slow buildup of a "Let's join the US" campaign among his base, boosted by social media trolls with huge quantities of lie-filled feel-good propaganda.
- The same troll farm(s) will simultaneously build anti-US sentiment among the anti-PP crowd to a fever pitch while tying them tightly to all the social conservative boogymen that trolls have already built up irrational anger about, then provoke them into civil disobedience that is calculated to alienate the general population (Like Just Stop Oil's ineffectual splashing paint on rare artifacts stunts). This will marginalize the anti-US crowd, help turn the mainstream against them and in doing so, push the mainstream towards the pro-US court.
- PP will then negotiate the annexation of Canada, privately threat-bribing dissenters in his own party into submission. Once it's over, PP will be very handsomely rewarded as Trumps quisling and Putins grand-quisling.
- Canadians will not become US citizens with full voting rights . We will be second class citizens and, once camps are built here and the usual enemies of fascism are rounded up, a source of slave labour.
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:30 AM on January 8
It won't have to be an invasion. He reacted so stutteringly negative when a reporter asked him about military force in Canada because he has already been briefed on the plan. Here's how it would go down:
- PP will continue with his "no way, Donald" rhetoric until he is elected
- Post-election, he will start a slow buildup of a "Let's join the US" campaign among his base, boosted by social media trolls with huge quantities of lie-filled feel-good propaganda.
- The same troll farm(s) will simultaneously build anti-US sentiment among the anti-PP crowd to a fever pitch while tying them tightly to all the social conservative boogymen that trolls have already built up irrational anger about, then provoke them into civil disobedience that is calculated to alienate the general population (Like Just Stop Oil's ineffectual splashing paint on rare artifacts stunts). This will marginalize the anti-US crowd, help turn the mainstream against them and in doing so, push the mainstream towards the pro-US court.
- PP will then negotiate the annexation of Canada, privately threat-bribing dissenters in his own party into submission. Once it's over, PP will be very handsomely rewarded as Trumps quisling and Putins grand-quisling.
- Canadians will not become US citizens with full voting rights . We will be second class citizens and, once camps are built here and the usual enemies of fascism are rounded up, a source of slave labour.
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:30 AM on January 8
Potential defense allies are Denmark…
More than a potential ally, surely. Greenland is part of the Kingdom of Denmark. It is an autonomous territory and has a high level of self-determination (which it has used to block any exploitation of its considerable oil reserves), but defence is definitely a matter for Denmark.
Although Greenland also used its autonomy to leave the EU, an early precedent for Brexit, I don’t think there’s much doubt that a military attack would in practice be regarded as a declaration of war on the entire EU.
posted by Phanx at 7:31 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
More than a potential ally, surely. Greenland is part of the Kingdom of Denmark. It is an autonomous territory and has a high level of self-determination (which it has used to block any exploitation of its considerable oil reserves), but defence is definitely a matter for Denmark.
Although Greenland also used its autonomy to leave the EU, an early precedent for Brexit, I don’t think there’s much doubt that a military attack would in practice be regarded as a declaration of war on the entire EU.
posted by Phanx at 7:31 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
In a theoretical world where Trump decides to annex Canada, he would need to pull back US troops stationed overseas. For example, in Europe and Asia. That would create wide openings for Putin, Xi and Kim to do their own annexations.
It would be stupid, but I don’t doubt there are some with the mindset that the US shouldn’t try to beat Russian on Ukraine or China on Taiwan, but join them. From that perspective, why worry about protecting foreign lands when the US could just follow suit and absorb Greenland, Canada, the Gulf, and ultimately the Caribbean and the rest of North and Central America down to Panama. Fortress America only needs a short border wall then! (South America can come later.) That totally makes sense for people whose fine strategic minds have been honed by playing Risk and staring at maps.
posted by Pryde at 7:44 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
It would be stupid, but I don’t doubt there are some with the mindset that the US shouldn’t try to beat Russian on Ukraine or China on Taiwan, but join them. From that perspective, why worry about protecting foreign lands when the US could just follow suit and absorb Greenland, Canada, the Gulf, and ultimately the Caribbean and the rest of North and Central America down to Panama. Fortress America only needs a short border wall then! (South America can come later.) That totally makes sense for people whose fine strategic minds have been honed by playing Risk and staring at maps.
posted by Pryde at 7:44 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
he would need to pull back US troops stationed overseas ... That would create wide openings for Putin, Xi and Kim
That has also been the plan from the start:
Chinese/Russian billionaires to US billionaires, circa 2012: "So, we hear you're freaked out about Occupy Wall street and the threat of a 90% tax rate. You can have the riches and power we have and we will help you attain those goals, but you have to stop harvesting wealth in our spheres of influence and get your power out of there so we can expand. In return, we will support your expansion in your sphere of influence - there's plenty of resources there you can take. Greenland and Canada, for example".
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:57 AM on January 8
That has also been the plan from the start:
Chinese/Russian billionaires to US billionaires, circa 2012: "So, we hear you're freaked out about Occupy Wall street and the threat of a 90% tax rate. You can have the riches and power we have and we will help you attain those goals, but you have to stop harvesting wealth in our spheres of influence and get your power out of there so we can expand. In return, we will support your expansion in your sphere of influence - there's plenty of resources there you can take. Greenland and Canada, for example".
posted by CynicalKnight at 7:57 AM on January 8
More than a potential ally, surely. Greenland is part of the Kingdom of Denmark. It is an autonomous territory and has a high level of self-determination (which it has used to block any exploitation of its considerable oil reserves), but defence is definitely a matter for Denmark.
I was thinking of a future independent Greenland, not the current situation.
posted by mumimor at 7:59 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
I was thinking of a future independent Greenland, not the current situation.
posted by mumimor at 7:59 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
It's a blog, but is the blog of a very well regarded journalist and expert on Arctic matters.
The arctic zones are also a factor to Greenland's wealth. The territory is tentatively divided among all coastal nations bordering by shared coastline. Russia already claiming all it by planting flags around it, as other nations moving closer with bases or village settlements to bolster their claims. Currently, Greenland has a proportional claim, as does the US, by its border with Alaska, along with the Nordic states. Canada's claim is very large, while Russia is the largest, entitled to about half. This is a big deal because of drilling rights and sea lanes after any melt off. Santa also lives there and any reporters questioning Trump should find out what kind of personal relationship he has with the guy.
posted by Brian B. at 8:01 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
The arctic zones are also a factor to Greenland's wealth. The territory is tentatively divided among all coastal nations bordering by shared coastline. Russia already claiming all it by planting flags around it, as other nations moving closer with bases or village settlements to bolster their claims. Currently, Greenland has a proportional claim, as does the US, by its border with Alaska, along with the Nordic states. Canada's claim is very large, while Russia is the largest, entitled to about half. This is a big deal because of drilling rights and sea lanes after any melt off. Santa also lives there and any reporters questioning Trump should find out what kind of personal relationship he has with the guy.
posted by Brian B. at 8:01 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
I do not believe for one minute that a large, rich country like Canada can just be fooled into letting itself be annexed by the US, especially without voting rights. Puerto Rico, for instance, was a Spanish colony before becoming a de facto US colony. Canada has a tremendous number of treaties, trade agreements, tax structures, education systems etc that would have to be subsumed into the US framework, which would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. And there's no real modern history of one rich country just...getting unfavorably annexed by another rich country. I'd believe that Trump would invade before I'd believe that any amount of propaganda about being annexed by the US as second class citizens would lead to popular acceptance of annexation.
Bear in mind too that if Canada's got problems, the US has problems that are worse. And do you think that the Quebecois, who don't even want to be part of Canada, are going to be happy to join the US?
Ukraine is a contested region that was part of the USSR from 1922 to the fall of the USSR and economically precarious for some time after that; it is not integrated into world systems to the same degree that Canada is. This does not mean that it is the "property" of Russia, but it does mean that it is not an analog to Canada. And even Ukraine has to be conquered! They have part of the population that would be willing to join Russia, but propaganda and soft invasion didn't work and now there's a war!
Musk and Trump and them like to talk as if the world is a boardgame and you just roll your dice and pick up Greenland or Panama or whatever. Even when colonization happened, it was horrible and bloody, expensive and contentious at home. And that was when well-armed European and American powers with substantial industrial bases were up against small non-state or weak-state groups with little in the way of arms.
Things are harder than people think. Flooding the zone with shit until everyone panics is one way to make things easier. Don't just believe that through hand-waving somehow Trump and Musk are going to expand the US - that is not and never has been how territory acquisition works.
It's true that a government can impose major unpopular policies by brute force, but the more major the policy, the more force you have to use. Hegemony isn't just "we can shoot you if you won't obey" - if you have to rule like that (as opposed to brutally managing minoritized populations like that), you're already in deep trouble. Otherwise you may not literally get an immediate general strike, but you get general chaos and stroppiness that makes government a lot harder and causes unpredictable problems.
posted by Frowner at 8:01 AM on January 8 [19 favorites]
Bear in mind too that if Canada's got problems, the US has problems that are worse. And do you think that the Quebecois, who don't even want to be part of Canada, are going to be happy to join the US?
Ukraine is a contested region that was part of the USSR from 1922 to the fall of the USSR and economically precarious for some time after that; it is not integrated into world systems to the same degree that Canada is. This does not mean that it is the "property" of Russia, but it does mean that it is not an analog to Canada. And even Ukraine has to be conquered! They have part of the population that would be willing to join Russia, but propaganda and soft invasion didn't work and now there's a war!
Musk and Trump and them like to talk as if the world is a boardgame and you just roll your dice and pick up Greenland or Panama or whatever. Even when colonization happened, it was horrible and bloody, expensive and contentious at home. And that was when well-armed European and American powers with substantial industrial bases were up against small non-state or weak-state groups with little in the way of arms.
Things are harder than people think. Flooding the zone with shit until everyone panics is one way to make things easier. Don't just believe that through hand-waving somehow Trump and Musk are going to expand the US - that is not and never has been how territory acquisition works.
It's true that a government can impose major unpopular policies by brute force, but the more major the policy, the more force you have to use. Hegemony isn't just "we can shoot you if you won't obey" - if you have to rule like that (as opposed to brutally managing minoritized populations like that), you're already in deep trouble. Otherwise you may not literally get an immediate general strike, but you get general chaos and stroppiness that makes government a lot harder and causes unpredictable problems.
posted by Frowner at 8:01 AM on January 8 [19 favorites]
I'm gonna say that a lot of doomsayers are a little TOO eager for the bad stuff to start.
posted by Kitteh at 8:04 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:04 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
CynicalKnight you can use troll farms to influence public opinions and elections on issues that are close to a 50/50 split. But I don't think you can use them to reverse public opinion on an issue with overwhelming support on one side.
And I hate and loathe PP, he's a fucking weasel, but so far not a cook, that's Danielle Smith, I don't think he's being dishonest with that position.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:08 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
And I hate and loathe PP, he's a fucking weasel, but so far not a cook, that's Danielle Smith, I don't think he's being dishonest with that position.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:08 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
And do you think that the Quebecois, who don't even want to be part of Canada, are going to be happy to join the US?
I can answer that.
FUCK NO.
Actually, that Trump bullshit might be better for Canadian unity than a team Canada gold medal win.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:11 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
I can answer that.
FUCK NO.
Actually, that Trump bullshit might be better for Canadian unity than a team Canada gold medal win.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:11 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
I don't think you can use them to reverse public opinion
Troll farms put Trump back in the White House. I think their power is stronger than we want to believe.
a little TOO eager
I predicted an invasion of Mexico eight years ago, and now it looks like it's gonna happen.
Not eagerness so much as resignation.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:13 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Troll farms put Trump back in the White House. I think their power is stronger than we want to believe.
a little TOO eager
I predicted an invasion of Mexico eight years ago, and now it looks like it's gonna happen.
Not eagerness so much as resignation.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:13 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Also why in God's name would any Canadian want Canada to join the US as a single state? Sure, maybe you all will elect some Trumpian business grifter who just wants his money and isn't really beholden to any constituency, but there is zero likelihood of Canadian business people and career politicians wanting Canada to have that little influence in its own country. One state? Even California recognizes that it is under-represented given its population, and California is a big state but it sure isn't as big a place as Canada. Canada has diverse financial and agricultural interests which would be extremely ill-served by being a single state in the US system. That's completely bananas and would never ever happen unless the US institutes a constant state of nuclear blackmail.
People don't understand how systems work. When you don't understand how a system works, the best assumption is that it is slow and complex and rife with competing interests in ways that you cannot immediately see, not that it is swift and simple and can easily be turned or manipulated.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]
People don't understand how systems work. When you don't understand how a system works, the best assumption is that it is slow and complex and rife with competing interests in ways that you cannot immediately see, not that it is swift and simple and can easily be turned or manipulated.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]
I predicted an invasion of Mexico eight years ago, and now it looks like it's gonna happen.
Until it happens, you've predicted nothing.
posted by Kitteh at 8:23 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
Until it happens, you've predicted nothing.
posted by Kitteh at 8:23 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
It's still a prediction, given the definition.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:26 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:26 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Less a prediction and more like a hard-on to say "I told you so", tbh
posted by Kitteh at 8:27 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:27 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Frowner, well there's still a small percentage of the population who has a hard-on for the myth of the United States, people who make decent salaries and are allergic to taxes and think they'd fare better in that kind of environment. I'd say those idiots are uneducated in the horror of US health care insurance or the actual cost of education, or egoistical privileged people, and they might change their tune once it became more than a expression of anger, but they exist.
And even though military invasion seems unlikely, the proposed tariffs would wreak havoc on the Canadian economy, it would hurt the US too but I'm pretty sure we'd feel the effects first and they'd be stronger. Next 4 years are gonna be wild....
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:35 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
And even though military invasion seems unlikely, the proposed tariffs would wreak havoc on the Canadian economy, it would hurt the US too but I'm pretty sure we'd feel the effects first and they'd be stronger. Next 4 years are gonna be wild....
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:35 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
Ok still a prediction and also pot kettle lol
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:36 AM on January 8
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:36 AM on January 8
In re Mexico: yes, it's quite possible that the US will run some bullying expeditions in the name of anti-cartel policing in order to throw money to weapons manufacturers and red meat to the base and probably distract from deportations that are more limited than Trump campaigned on. This would not be out of line with past US practice. This can happen easily because it is unilateral and profitable and does not place any cost on the base or the public. Invading our largest trade partner, whence comes a lot of our food, in order to annex it against its will and rule it as a colonized territory? That, again, is completely bananas. It would impose tremendous costs on the American public and on American business - almost unimaginable costs.
Very bad things can happen, but not every very bad thing can happen. It took longer than my entire lifetime to overturn Roe v Wade, and that was just about abortion access and primarily affected women in an already misogynist society.
The Trump administration can definitely impose costs and harms on citizens and businesses, but they can't just impose every cost and harm - they have to pick. And the more obvious the costs and harms are (such as invading our biggest trading partner out of the blue with only the most transparent excuses, massively disrupting imports and the stock market) the harder it is to do.
Trump and Musk and so on are evil but they are not magic. They can do a lot of harm, few people and almost none with significant power will resist them, but that's not why it's difficult for them to do complicated things.
posted by Frowner at 8:39 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
Very bad things can happen, but not every very bad thing can happen. It took longer than my entire lifetime to overturn Roe v Wade, and that was just about abortion access and primarily affected women in an already misogynist society.
The Trump administration can definitely impose costs and harms on citizens and businesses, but they can't just impose every cost and harm - they have to pick. And the more obvious the costs and harms are (such as invading our biggest trading partner out of the blue with only the most transparent excuses, massively disrupting imports and the stock market) the harder it is to do.
Trump and Musk and so on are evil but they are not magic. They can do a lot of harm, few people and almost none with significant power will resist them, but that's not why it's difficult for them to do complicated things.
posted by Frowner at 8:39 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
And today I see Denmark is willing to discuss 'security' issues. Which...no. You start talking to this guy like it's normal and we're all gonna end up screwed over.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:45 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:45 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
Mange-marde
posted by house-goblin at 8:46 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
posted by house-goblin at 8:46 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
My fear is that Trump's actual insanity around Justin Trudeau, Canada, and his own ego has place this absolutely vile idea of us becoming a 51st state into the discourse now. Yeah, it's a distraction on some level, but it's actually horrifying, as a Canadian, to hear our southern neighbours talk about us like this.
On Bluesy I came across a well educated, leftist writer talking about how bad for the GOP it would be for Canada to become a state because we would always vote blue with our electoral votes. I felt like screaming at him because it totally ignores our sovereignty and also, in its own very small way, normalizes what is in fact an absolutely odious discussion to have in the first place. It's not Trump I worry about so much in this regard, but the fact that this idea is edging towards part of the conversation in a classic Overton Window way and maybe at some point someone who can actually function but has the same lack of a moral centre as Trump might come along.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:53 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]
On Bluesy I came across a well educated, leftist writer talking about how bad for the GOP it would be for Canada to become a state because we would always vote blue with our electoral votes. I felt like screaming at him because it totally ignores our sovereignty and also, in its own very small way, normalizes what is in fact an absolutely odious discussion to have in the first place. It's not Trump I worry about so much in this regard, but the fact that this idea is edging towards part of the conversation in a classic Overton Window way and maybe at some point someone who can actually function but has the same lack of a moral centre as Trump might come along.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:53 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]
Wasn't there a state some time ago that tried to ban undocumented workers? Alabama perhaps?
The proposed tariffs would wreak havoc on the Canadian economy, it would hurt the US too but I'm pretty sure we'd feel the effects first and they'd be stronger.
The tariffs are Trumps most idiotic idea, and the one Trump is most likely to deliver on, because he can use the tariffs to exhort entire countries, like Canada, Mexico or Denmark in this thread. I don't know if tariffs would work on Panama, which is sadly the most likely country to be taken over by force, IMO. I believe the American consumers will be the biggest losers. It's true that other countries depend economically on exports to the US, but the US depends on those goods far more than we depend on selling them. Companies have been preparing for a possible Trump reelection for a year at least, and they will be able to weather the crisis. The most dangerous thing is if the US economy breaks down entirely. That will take down the rest of the world, as it has done before.
Americans will have to pay far more for cars and trucks, for vital medicines and for literally all the food.
Trump tells Americans that he is moving jobs from other countries to the US, which would be nice. But the US already depends on undocumented workers in the food industry, and I doubt expanding the car and drug industries can be done overnight.
posted by mumimor at 8:55 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
The proposed tariffs would wreak havoc on the Canadian economy, it would hurt the US too but I'm pretty sure we'd feel the effects first and they'd be stronger.
The tariffs are Trumps most idiotic idea, and the one Trump is most likely to deliver on, because he can use the tariffs to exhort entire countries, like Canada, Mexico or Denmark in this thread. I don't know if tariffs would work on Panama, which is sadly the most likely country to be taken over by force, IMO. I believe the American consumers will be the biggest losers. It's true that other countries depend economically on exports to the US, but the US depends on those goods far more than we depend on selling them. Companies have been preparing for a possible Trump reelection for a year at least, and they will be able to weather the crisis. The most dangerous thing is if the US economy breaks down entirely. That will take down the rest of the world, as it has done before.
Americans will have to pay far more for cars and trucks, for vital medicines and for literally all the food.
Trump tells Americans that he is moving jobs from other countries to the US, which would be nice. But the US already depends on undocumented workers in the food industry, and I doubt expanding the car and drug industries can be done overnight.
posted by mumimor at 8:55 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
I'm gonna say that a lot of doomsayers are a little TOO eager for the bad stuff to start.
After the bad stuff starts: "Oh, I bet you doomsayers are just loving this now that you can say, 'I told you so.'"
posted by AlSweigart at 9:01 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
After the bad stuff starts: "Oh, I bet you doomsayers are just loving this now that you can say, 'I told you so.'"
posted by AlSweigart at 9:01 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
Catch-22, in its most primal and plainly-stated form, is simple: They can do anything that we can't stop them from doing.
That is Trumpism and MAGA in one sentence. Having been born into a place of significant privilege, Trump is entitled to ignore all laws and restrictions and act with impunity and lord it over all the lesser folk, because it is difficult to stop him from doing so. Having once been significantly privileged in both American society and law, white anglo-saxon protestant cis het conservative males are entitled to reclaim that privileged state by any means necessary, because ethical Americans are losing ground in stopping them. So why does America, being the economically-privileged and far-better-armed country, not simply eat all smaller countries?
The Art of the Deal, Trumpily-speaking, is a simple one: always move aggressively, declare that it will be less painful for opponents to simply bend the knee than to fight it in the courts, and bully your way to dominance. That's what this is -- obnoxiously loud chest-beating, King of the Mountain trying to scare everyone else away from daring to oppose him, and complete indifference to the welfare of any of the hostages he takes.
The trick for the rest of the world lies in their comprehension of that.
posted by delfin at 9:10 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
That is Trumpism and MAGA in one sentence. Having been born into a place of significant privilege, Trump is entitled to ignore all laws and restrictions and act with impunity and lord it over all the lesser folk, because it is difficult to stop him from doing so. Having once been significantly privileged in both American society and law, white anglo-saxon protestant cis het conservative males are entitled to reclaim that privileged state by any means necessary, because ethical Americans are losing ground in stopping them. So why does America, being the economically-privileged and far-better-armed country, not simply eat all smaller countries?
The Art of the Deal, Trumpily-speaking, is a simple one: always move aggressively, declare that it will be less painful for opponents to simply bend the knee than to fight it in the courts, and bully your way to dominance. That's what this is -- obnoxiously loud chest-beating, King of the Mountain trying to scare everyone else away from daring to oppose him, and complete indifference to the welfare of any of the hostages he takes.
The trick for the rest of the world lies in their comprehension of that.
posted by delfin at 9:10 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
Also why in God's name would any Canadian want Canada to join the US as a single state?
I'm sorry to answer this question, because in doing so it makes me ashamed and angry, but Alberta is full of these people
Our culture and economy is thoroughly integrated with the Houston/Oil pipeline. Calgary Stampede would feel familiar to a lot of Texans. I sat at a table during the Christmas break and listened to people talking about the harsh gun laws here, one of those people is a young RCMP officer.
I want to blame this on someone or something, somehow I'm certain that this is wrong. I want to be wrong. But everywhere I look I see people who seem poised to throw everything away and just ride this fucking train.
posted by ginger.beef at 9:37 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
I'm sorry to answer this question, because in doing so it makes me ashamed and angry, but Alberta is full of these people
Our culture and economy is thoroughly integrated with the Houston/Oil pipeline. Calgary Stampede would feel familiar to a lot of Texans. I sat at a table during the Christmas break and listened to people talking about the harsh gun laws here, one of those people is a young RCMP officer.
I want to blame this on someone or something, somehow I'm certain that this is wrong. I want to be wrong. But everywhere I look I see people who seem poised to throw everything away and just ride this fucking train.
posted by ginger.beef at 9:37 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
Santa also lives there and any reporters questioning Trump should find out what kind of personal relationship he has with the guy.
Come now, Santa lives in Greenland, so your theory can operate a lot more directly.
posted by Dysk at 10:10 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
Come now, Santa lives in Greenland, so your theory can operate a lot more directly.
posted by Dysk at 10:10 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]
Take Trump’s Greenland Obsession Seriously "Trump’s thirst for expansion isn’t a sideshow. It’s the foreign-policy expression of his core political impulse: bullying."
"There was one person who understood this all along. As he explained twenty years ago: “When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything . . . Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.”"
posted by AlSweigart at 11:19 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
"There was one person who understood this all along. As he explained twenty years ago: “When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything . . . Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.”"
posted by AlSweigart at 11:19 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
He is not even president yet and I AM SO TIRED.
posted by srboisvert at 11:30 AM on January 8 [15 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 11:30 AM on January 8 [15 favorites]
A Texas representative was on CNN today declaring that this is "America's new Manifest Destiny" and that "the people of Panama, I think that the people of Greenland, I think that the people of Canada for that matter should be honored that President Trump wants to bring these territories under the American fold."
A Fox News talking head droned this morning as to how to taking Greenland makes sense "because it's the halfway point between our country and the UK, so it would make sense to have that for war purposes if we ever got to that point" and that "As far as Panama Canal, we built it. Was it 1941? In the '70s it was renamed and he wants to take that back, it makes perfect sense."
Nothin' but good times ahead.
posted by delfin at 11:36 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
A Fox News talking head droned this morning as to how to taking Greenland makes sense "because it's the halfway point between our country and the UK, so it would make sense to have that for war purposes if we ever got to that point" and that "As far as Panama Canal, we built it. Was it 1941? In the '70s it was renamed and he wants to take that back, it makes perfect sense."
Nothin' but good times ahead.
posted by delfin at 11:36 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
What all of this is about is telling everyone, "law and politics don't matter, all that matter are wealth and force". And that's half true, but it's not 100% true until we hypnotize ourselves into believing that what Trump says inevitably comes to pass.
He really wanted to build that wall and make Mexico pay for it, for instance, and he built very little wall. It was a great opportunity for graft, it destroyed precious ecosystem and it was a way to rile up the base, but even he could not create a wall along the entire border, or even a sizeable percentage of the border.
Grand designs are extremely difficult to achieve. I'm not saying "oh everything is fine, little will change" - I think that a lot of things are going to be fucking dire and a lot, a LOT of people will suffer. But I do not think that Trump himself just has in him the power to do whatever he wants, make the complex simple and the difficult easy, etc. He can do that when it's something small that costs people little to give him, but that is not generalizable.
posted by Frowner at 11:39 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
He really wanted to build that wall and make Mexico pay for it, for instance, and he built very little wall. It was a great opportunity for graft, it destroyed precious ecosystem and it was a way to rile up the base, but even he could not create a wall along the entire border, or even a sizeable percentage of the border.
Grand designs are extremely difficult to achieve. I'm not saying "oh everything is fine, little will change" - I think that a lot of things are going to be fucking dire and a lot, a LOT of people will suffer. But I do not think that Trump himself just has in him the power to do whatever he wants, make the complex simple and the difficult easy, etc. He can do that when it's something small that costs people little to give him, but that is not generalizable.
posted by Frowner at 11:39 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
Also, talk is free. I'm not saying that talk is trivial, but I remember the eighties when there was a lot of bad talk, and a very large amount of it was intended to intimidate and dishearten, sometimes strategically and sometimes out of sadism.
We've got to show brave against these people and go down fighting, not just stare into the void until we fall in.
posted by Frowner at 11:41 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
We've got to show brave against these people and go down fighting, not just stare into the void until we fall in.
posted by Frowner at 11:41 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
Well if Bill Kristol says it… takes one to know one, as they say.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:53 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:53 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Actually, that Trump bullshit might be better for Canadian unity than a team Canada gold medal win.
I agree. The notion of a Canadian identity has been a national in-joke for decades. A magazine (I think it was McLeans, and I think it was in the late 1970s) ran a contest for the best expression of a Canadian identity and the winner was, "As Canadian as possible under the circumstances". But like other kinds of ethnic humour, this is a joke we only tell each other, and we are not amused when outsiders laugh at the same.
But one constant Canadian identifier, at least in my 65 years, is that we are not American. I hope any move to change that would be met with solid popular resistance.
posted by angiep at 11:56 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
I agree. The notion of a Canadian identity has been a national in-joke for decades. A magazine (I think it was McLeans, and I think it was in the late 1970s) ran a contest for the best expression of a Canadian identity and the winner was, "As Canadian as possible under the circumstances". But like other kinds of ethnic humour, this is a joke we only tell each other, and we are not amused when outsiders laugh at the same.
But one constant Canadian identifier, at least in my 65 years, is that we are not American. I hope any move to change that would be met with solid popular resistance.
posted by angiep at 11:56 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]
As far as Panama Canal, we built it. Was it 1941? In the '70s it was renamed and he wants to take that back, it makes perfect sense.
Oh ffs. Wrong Roosevelt, buddy. The canal was completed in 1914; we had other things going on in 1941. It was always the Panama Canal; it was never renamed. The US effort completed what the French started in the 19th century, and did so through a textbook example of US gunboat diplomacy and messing with Latin American countries.
posted by nickmark at 11:59 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
Oh ffs. Wrong Roosevelt, buddy. The canal was completed in 1914; we had other things going on in 1941. It was always the Panama Canal; it was never renamed. The US effort completed what the French started in the 19th century, and did so through a textbook example of US gunboat diplomacy and messing with Latin American countries.
posted by nickmark at 11:59 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]
I agree. The notion of a Canadian identity has been a national in-joke for decades. A magazine (I think it was McLeans, and I think it was in the late 1970s) ran a contest for the best expression of a Canadian identity and the winner was, "As Canadian as possible under the circumstances". But like other kinds of ethnic humour, this is a joke we only tell each other, and we are not amused when outsiders laugh at the same.
But one constant Canadian identifier, at least in my 65 years, is that we are not American. I hope any move to change that would be met with solid popular resistance.
angiep, you have every right to feel irritated by this but:
- Macleans
- "Canadian" is not an ethnicity
- that joke we tell each other fairly defines us across generations. I think the joke is funnier depending on your proximity to a WASP-y core, but what do I know
- we are close enough in age that we both probably remember what it was like to get one channel ("two if the winds were blowing right"). Did you make a point of tuning into Air Farce when it was a Sunday radio show? etc. We are at the tail end of a generation when national culture-building was of a certain flavour. It isn't all downhill since then, credit to the Trudeau Liberals for pushing the TRC findings, but I'm just struggling lately.
posted by ginger.beef at 12:05 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
But one constant Canadian identifier, at least in my 65 years, is that we are not American. I hope any move to change that would be met with solid popular resistance.
angiep, you have every right to feel irritated by this but:
- Macleans
- "Canadian" is not an ethnicity
- that joke we tell each other fairly defines us across generations. I think the joke is funnier depending on your proximity to a WASP-y core, but what do I know
- we are close enough in age that we both probably remember what it was like to get one channel ("two if the winds were blowing right"). Did you make a point of tuning into Air Farce when it was a Sunday radio show? etc. We are at the tail end of a generation when national culture-building was of a certain flavour. It isn't all downhill since then, credit to the Trudeau Liberals for pushing the TRC findings, but I'm just struggling lately.
posted by ginger.beef at 12:05 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Because of course he does, Fetterman supports buying Greenland.
posted by dirigibleman at 12:16 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
posted by dirigibleman at 12:16 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
The always informative and insightful Anders Puck Nielsen (he usually covers Ukraine, highly recommended Danish analyst) covers Why Trump can't buy Greenland.
posted by bouvin at 12:27 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
posted by bouvin at 12:27 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
It’s probably not because they were dazzled by Trump’s resumption of Manifest Destiny, but while this news cycle was happening the Democrats just kind of forgot to protect the NLRB.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:40 PM on January 8 [4 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 12:40 PM on January 8 [4 favorites]
The stuff about Greenland, Canada, and the “Gulf of America” sounds like Trump’s usual spewing out whatever half-baked ideas form in his brain. Although I wouldn’t put it past him to try one or more of those things. The Panama Canal is different. It has been a sore point for conservatives ever since Carter “gave it away” in the 1970s, even though we pretty much stole the land from Colombia in the first place. And it’s not like we haven’t invaded Panama before, as Manuel Noriega would remind us if he were still around.
posted by TedW at 12:48 PM on January 8
posted by TedW at 12:48 PM on January 8
As Canadian as possible under the circumstances.
It was the CBC. To me that's important because it's the same one ol'rabbit skin wants to burn down.
posted by bonehead at 1:12 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
It was the CBC. To me that's important because it's the same one ol'rabbit skin wants to burn down.
posted by bonehead at 1:12 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
To gingerbeef: not irritated at all! Thanks for the correction about Macleans (although additional thanks to bonehead about the actual source being the CBC; I share your fears about the future of the CBC and think a national public broadcaster is needed now more than ever). Thanks for the other comments, too. I was sloppy using "ethnic" when nationality would have been correct, and I do know the difference. Your comment about WASP core is also probably correct, although I'm not one. But humour is always context dependent, including (perhaps especially) personal context.
I'm indeed of the age to have the experiences you mention, and still find Wayne and Shuster's Rinse the Blood Off My Toga hilarious, and the 1968 version of the Dolores Claman/Jerry Toth theme music for "Hockey Night in Canada" is the one that resides in my brain.
I'm conflicted about the hysteria around the TRC. We are friends with Blackfoot elders, and they definitely were abused in residential schools. However, this post is not the place for that discussion other than to point out that Indigenous people in Canada, whether on or off reserve, are unlikely to benefit from some crackpot American Manifest Destiny scheme.
posted by angiep at 1:26 PM on January 8 [4 favorites]
I'm indeed of the age to have the experiences you mention, and still find Wayne and Shuster's Rinse the Blood Off My Toga hilarious, and the 1968 version of the Dolores Claman/Jerry Toth theme music for "Hockey Night in Canada" is the one that resides in my brain.
I'm conflicted about the hysteria around the TRC. We are friends with Blackfoot elders, and they definitely were abused in residential schools. However, this post is not the place for that discussion other than to point out that Indigenous people in Canada, whether on or off reserve, are unlikely to benefit from some crackpot American Manifest Destiny scheme.
posted by angiep at 1:26 PM on January 8 [4 favorites]
European defence stocks rallied on Wednesday after President-elect Donald Trump reaffirmed his stance on increasing NATO spending and highlighted Greenland's strategic importance during a press conference at Mar-a-Lago on Tuesday.
posted by infini at 2:07 PM on January 8
posted by infini at 2:07 PM on January 8
EU member states such as Denmark can also trigger Article 42.7 of the EU Treaty, known as the ‘mutual assistance clause’, to oblige other Member States to come to their aid when under attack. A European Commission spokesperson confirmed on Wednesday that the island would benefit from the clause.
posted by infini at 2:19 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 2:19 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
The most dangerous thing is if the US economy breaks down entirely. That will take down the rest of the world, as it has done before.
China appears to be loading up on gold ahead of US President Donald Trump's inauguration on January 20. In December, China's central bank added 330,000 troy ounces of gold to its reserves in a second month of expansion of its gold stash, according to official data released on Tuesday.
posted by infini at 2:26 PM on January 8 [4 favorites]
China appears to be loading up on gold ahead of US President Donald Trump's inauguration on January 20. In December, China's central bank added 330,000 troy ounces of gold to its reserves in a second month of expansion of its gold stash, according to official data released on Tuesday.
posted by infini at 2:26 PM on January 8 [4 favorites]
re: Fetterman, upthread
I can agree with this at least: Fetterman said the public needs to pace itself in its outcries over Trump’s remarks since he hasn’t officially taken office yet. “We really need to pace ourselves if we’re going to freak out over every last tweet or every last conversation or press conference,” he said.
how are we going to manage? TFG is already issuing decrees from Mar-a-Lago like he's King Shit of Turd Mountain
posted by ginger.beef at 2:32 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
I can agree with this at least: Fetterman said the public needs to pace itself in its outcries over Trump’s remarks since he hasn’t officially taken office yet. “We really need to pace ourselves if we’re going to freak out over every last tweet or every last conversation or press conference,” he said.
how are we going to manage? TFG is already issuing decrees from Mar-a-Lago like he's King Shit of Turd Mountain
posted by ginger.beef at 2:32 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
After four years in and four years out of the White House how are people so bad at not taking the bait, do they need to invent an Ozempic to regulate consumption of meaningless trolling?
posted by Apocryphon at 2:41 PM on January 8
posted by Apocryphon at 2:41 PM on January 8
the Democrats just kind of forgot to protect the NLRB.
so, what do we do when the lesser evil just kinds of forgets to fight the greater evil?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:19 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
so, what do we do when the lesser evil just kinds of forgets to fight the greater evil?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:19 PM on January 8 [3 favorites]
so, what do we do when the lesser evil just kinds of forgets to fight the greater evil?
then we come belatedly to realize that when it comes to evil, greater or lesser, the fight was ours the whole time
posted by ginger.beef at 3:39 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
then we come belatedly to realize that when it comes to evil, greater or lesser, the fight was ours the whole time
posted by ginger.beef at 3:39 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
Current population of Canada is about 40 million. Assuming Canadian territory or territories were admitted as states, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 to 45 seats in the U.S. House of Representatives would shift northward, and the majority of those (not all, but a majority) would be filled by either Democrats or third-party/independent candidates that would caucus with Democrats.
When Republicans wake up to this, you'll see them drop the idea very, very quickly.
(Of course, if Canada were treated as some sort of occupied zone instead of being fully incorporated into the U.S., all bets would be off.)
posted by gimonca at 3:53 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
When Republicans wake up to this, you'll see them drop the idea very, very quickly.
(Of course, if Canada were treated as some sort of occupied zone instead of being fully incorporated into the U.S., all bets would be off.)
posted by gimonca at 3:53 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
The tariffs are Trumps most idiotic idea, and the one Trump is most likely to deliver on, because he can use the tariffs to exhort entire countries, like Canada, Mexico or Denmark in this thread.
No, he'll deliver them mostly because he is a very stupid man and thinks tariffs will actually put money directly in the US Treasury - some half-remembered and poorly understood explanations of tariffs and the Gilded Age economy given him decades ago stuck in his brain and festered there. Just like he genuinely thinks "build a physical wall" is an actual real solution to undocumented immigrants. He's not playing 7-D chess, he's not really capable of dissembling and strategizing, and he mentions tariffs far too often and too directly. He really thinks "trade imbalances" means other countries are screwing us out of money, he really thinks tariffs will fix that for real.
People smarter than him in his orbit and on his staff understand the grifting and leveraging possibilities of tariffs, and they're perfectly happy to let him blather on until it comes time to cut actual deals and create legislation, at which point there will be all sorts of carve outs and exceptions and trade offs and they'll tell him it was a masterful negotiation and he'll claim that tariffs are a great success no matter what actually gets implemented.
And if the tariffs crash the economy he'll claim Biden left him a time bomb.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:54 PM on January 8 [7 favorites]
No, he'll deliver them mostly because he is a very stupid man and thinks tariffs will actually put money directly in the US Treasury - some half-remembered and poorly understood explanations of tariffs and the Gilded Age economy given him decades ago stuck in his brain and festered there. Just like he genuinely thinks "build a physical wall" is an actual real solution to undocumented immigrants. He's not playing 7-D chess, he's not really capable of dissembling and strategizing, and he mentions tariffs far too often and too directly. He really thinks "trade imbalances" means other countries are screwing us out of money, he really thinks tariffs will fix that for real.
People smarter than him in his orbit and on his staff understand the grifting and leveraging possibilities of tariffs, and they're perfectly happy to let him blather on until it comes time to cut actual deals and create legislation, at which point there will be all sorts of carve outs and exceptions and trade offs and they'll tell him it was a masterful negotiation and he'll claim that tariffs are a great success no matter what actually gets implemented.
And if the tariffs crash the economy he'll claim Biden left him a time bomb.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:54 PM on January 8 [7 favorites]
He has suggested Canada as 1 state. The 2nd largest country, with a diverse population, should be 1 state. By population, they'd have a bunch of Reps to Congress. It's lacking in basic information, just a thought he had that seemed good so he's sticking with it. we are sp thoroughly fucked.
posted by theora55 at 6:01 PM on January 8
posted by theora55 at 6:01 PM on January 8
Would I ever join or support the US military in some action against Panama, Mexico, Greenland, Canada, or to go protect US bases in the Middle East or some shit ? Fuck no. Would I go join some mercenary group to fight alongside the Canadians or Greenlanders against my own countrymen? I mean yeah, probably. Congrats America. You strangled my patriotism in the cradle. I hate this fucking country.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:49 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:49 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
I'm not a Doug Ford fan, but I could get behind this idea: In response to Trump’s trolling, Ontario’s premier says Canada would buy Alaska and Minnesota
I often describe my home state (MN) as "Canada Lite" so...go on...
posted by VTX at 7:52 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
I often describe my home state (MN) as "Canada Lite" so...go on...
posted by VTX at 7:52 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
People smarter than him in his orbit and on his staff understand...
There's the rub for me. I'm not sure that there are smarter people, adults in the room, guardrails, etc. in 2025, or that if there are, Trump has ways of disempowering them. I desperately hope smart, informed, and thoughtful people who are committed to the highest ideals of democracy and rule of law can stop the worst of his excesses.
I agree that the best policy in normal times is to avoid feeding the trolls, but I'm truly afraid about the damage this troll can and will do, gleefully, just to wreak havoc, like some depraved miscreant deliberately destroying an anthill.
posted by angiep at 7:59 PM on January 8 [6 favorites]
There's the rub for me. I'm not sure that there are smarter people, adults in the room, guardrails, etc. in 2025, or that if there are, Trump has ways of disempowering them. I desperately hope smart, informed, and thoughtful people who are committed to the highest ideals of democracy and rule of law can stop the worst of his excesses.
I agree that the best policy in normal times is to avoid feeding the trolls, but I'm truly afraid about the damage this troll can and will do, gleefully, just to wreak havoc, like some depraved miscreant deliberately destroying an anthill.
posted by angiep at 7:59 PM on January 8 [6 favorites]
Canadian Green Party leader Elizabeth May suggested that California, Oregon and Washington join Canada as provinces, offering universal health care and stricter gun laws. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 8:25 PM on January 8 [17 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 8:25 PM on January 8 [17 favorites]
I'm not sure that there are smarter people, adults in the room, guardrails, etc. in 2025, or that if there are, Trump has ways of disempowering them
I think you're missing my point. The smarter people around him don't care about guardrails or normality or even legality, much. They're the smarter criminals. They get that you can make a lot more money by embezzling than by waving a gun around in a bank lobby, and people won't even notice you're stealing.
So Trump stomps around shrieking "tariffs tariffs tariffs !!!!!!!" and then 3 months from now the board of Dell collectively donates $5 million to some right wing PAC, and pays some Senator's brother-in-law $3 million in consulting fees and that "consulting" involves shipping chips from China to South Korea and then importing the chips into the US from South Korea. And meanwhile the Senator and everyone else getting money from the PAC makes sure to constantly remind Trump not to impose tariffs on South Korea. At some point they might even mention to Trump that Dell put a bunch of money into the PAC and that PAC can help pay off some of his legal fees so since Dell just wants to have a good relationship with the Trump administration he should play nice because Dell is "getting chips from South Korea not China (nudge nudge wink wink)."
So Dell gets to keep getting cheap computer chips from China, just with a little detour through South Korea, and Trump & a bunch of other people line their pockets. The smarter people I'm talking about are the ones planning shit like this now. Trump isn't, really. He might have a concept of a plan about it, but he's still stuck in the belief that tariffs work directly. Other smarter people are going to work out how to make the grift actually happen, and then give him a piece of the action.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:11 PM on January 8 [13 favorites]
I think you're missing my point. The smarter people around him don't care about guardrails or normality or even legality, much. They're the smarter criminals. They get that you can make a lot more money by embezzling than by waving a gun around in a bank lobby, and people won't even notice you're stealing.
So Trump stomps around shrieking "tariffs tariffs tariffs !!!!!!!" and then 3 months from now the board of Dell collectively donates $5 million to some right wing PAC, and pays some Senator's brother-in-law $3 million in consulting fees and that "consulting" involves shipping chips from China to South Korea and then importing the chips into the US from South Korea. And meanwhile the Senator and everyone else getting money from the PAC makes sure to constantly remind Trump not to impose tariffs on South Korea. At some point they might even mention to Trump that Dell put a bunch of money into the PAC and that PAC can help pay off some of his legal fees so since Dell just wants to have a good relationship with the Trump administration he should play nice because Dell is "getting chips from South Korea not China (nudge nudge wink wink)."
So Dell gets to keep getting cheap computer chips from China, just with a little detour through South Korea, and Trump & a bunch of other people line their pockets. The smarter people I'm talking about are the ones planning shit like this now. Trump isn't, really. He might have a concept of a plan about it, but he's still stuck in the belief that tariffs work directly. Other smarter people are going to work out how to make the grift actually happen, and then give him a piece of the action.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:11 PM on January 8 [13 favorites]
There never was a Greenland.
We have always been at war with Antarctica.
posted by neuron at 10:05 PM on January 8 [6 favorites]
We have always been at war with Antarctica.
posted by neuron at 10:05 PM on January 8 [6 favorites]
> one constant Canadian identifier, at least in my 65 years, is that we are not American. I hope any move to change that would be met with solid popular resistance.
The mostly (bar Quebec) united Canada of hockey, Tim Hortons, and Tommy Douglas’ vision of healthcare is gone. We now have ideological/regional identities. Alberta and most rural areas fashioning themselves into American populists or worse (with rhetoric, Trump stickers and even Confederate flags). Urban centres are changing with new immigration patterns and reflect international tensions. Cost of living is tightly and strongly inversely related to quality of life, synthetic drugs and encampments are everywhere. Education, healthcare, infrastructure are degraded in every place I can think of. Jobs gone. Crime up. Lots of people are feeling economically and socially dislocated, they’re resentful and desperate. I full on believe a massive chunk of the trucker/yellow vest crew would just love to call themselves American to big themselves up.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:39 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
The mostly (bar Quebec) united Canada of hockey, Tim Hortons, and Tommy Douglas’ vision of healthcare is gone. We now have ideological/regional identities. Alberta and most rural areas fashioning themselves into American populists or worse (with rhetoric, Trump stickers and even Confederate flags). Urban centres are changing with new immigration patterns and reflect international tensions. Cost of living is tightly and strongly inversely related to quality of life, synthetic drugs and encampments are everywhere. Education, healthcare, infrastructure are degraded in every place I can think of. Jobs gone. Crime up. Lots of people are feeling economically and socially dislocated, they’re resentful and desperate. I full on believe a massive chunk of the trucker/yellow vest crew would just love to call themselves American to big themselves up.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:39 PM on January 8 [1 favorite]
soundguy99, that is exactly how I expect the coming Trump administration to run, and they aren't hiding it either.
Is Trump the mastermind? I don't think so, and he keeps on saying "people are telling me", but that doesn't really matter. He is the vessel or vehicle for the coming gigantic grift-show.
First time round, I don't think there was a plan. Trump didn't expect to win. For him, it was about evading justice. As I remember it, the Manhattan DA was honing in on his tax evasion and money laundering schemes. For Putin, it was about disrupting western democracy, and remember, there was a parallel scheme in the UK, which worked. The UK economy is down and trust in politicians has gone. For Bannon and a few others, it was about disrupting the administrative state, which they didn't entirely succeed with, then, because there were still adults in the room.
Now there is a plan, and people who can carry it out. Musk has latched on to the grift, partly because he is a creepy racist fascist by nature, but I think also because he feels genuinely threatened by Chinese industry. Yesterday, I saw the first ad for a Chinese EV here in Denmark (for me), and it was smooth. I think Tesla is toast if they gain a real foothold in Europe and the US. That leaves him with Space X, which is a government contractor, so of course he needs control of government. Something he was far less likely to get with a California Democrat.
posted by mumimor at 3:07 AM on January 9 [5 favorites]
Is Trump the mastermind? I don't think so, and he keeps on saying "people are telling me", but that doesn't really matter. He is the vessel or vehicle for the coming gigantic grift-show.
First time round, I don't think there was a plan. Trump didn't expect to win. For him, it was about evading justice. As I remember it, the Manhattan DA was honing in on his tax evasion and money laundering schemes. For Putin, it was about disrupting western democracy, and remember, there was a parallel scheme in the UK, which worked. The UK economy is down and trust in politicians has gone. For Bannon and a few others, it was about disrupting the administrative state, which they didn't entirely succeed with, then, because there were still adults in the room.
Now there is a plan, and people who can carry it out. Musk has latched on to the grift, partly because he is a creepy racist fascist by nature, but I think also because he feels genuinely threatened by Chinese industry. Yesterday, I saw the first ad for a Chinese EV here in Denmark (for me), and it was smooth. I think Tesla is toast if they gain a real foothold in Europe and the US. That leaves him with Space X, which is a government contractor, so of course he needs control of government. Something he was far less likely to get with a California Democrat.
posted by mumimor at 3:07 AM on January 9 [5 favorites]
This is one of those threads where a Charity donation betting pool is a good idea. Folks are all over the map (heh) in terms of what is possible, plausible, and likely.
Nect 4 years, trump/usa doesn't gain control of panama canal or greenland or canada or part of mexico? Vs he does. Of course, we need to define some edge cases. US already has bases in greenland, if Greenland declares independence but makes no further US-ward move, is that a win? If the panama canal gets leased to a international consortium of Saudi's brazillians and Jared Kushner? Etc.
We don't know the results know, but like many promises, we will know in the future.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 6:19 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
Nect 4 years, trump/usa doesn't gain control of panama canal or greenland or canada or part of mexico? Vs he does. Of course, we need to define some edge cases. US already has bases in greenland, if Greenland declares independence but makes no further US-ward move, is that a win? If the panama canal gets leased to a international consortium of Saudi's brazillians and Jared Kushner? Etc.
We don't know the results know, but like many promises, we will know in the future.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 6:19 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
the thought of all that happening and we'll just be posting snark and placing bets on MeFi is all too plausible
and depressing
posted by ginger.beef at 8:53 AM on January 9 [2 favorites]
and depressing
posted by ginger.beef at 8:53 AM on January 9 [2 favorites]
Would I go join some mercenary group to fight alongside the Canadians or Greenlanders against my own countrymen?
The 1984-esque, "Night of the Long Knives"-esque danger there is that said mercenary group ends up being a controlled sandbox whose members are steered to attack whomever the neofascists deem convenient (ie, a private enterprise competing with an inner circle member's private enterprise), then steered to their own destruction when their usefulness is at an end.
The inability of so many people to see how their anger was co-opted and redirected up till now to help bring about the current democratic collapse is not inspiring for the future.
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:53 AM on January 9
The 1984-esque, "Night of the Long Knives"-esque danger there is that said mercenary group ends up being a controlled sandbox whose members are steered to attack whomever the neofascists deem convenient (ie, a private enterprise competing with an inner circle member's private enterprise), then steered to their own destruction when their usefulness is at an end.
The inability of so many people to see how their anger was co-opted and redirected up till now to help bring about the current democratic collapse is not inspiring for the future.
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:53 AM on January 9
At what point will Canada feel the need to invoke Defense Scheme No. 1?
posted by TedW at 11:34 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
posted by TedW at 11:34 AM on January 9 [1 favorite]
If you guys elect me I’ll sell Florida to Cuba. Just for the lulz.
posted by caviar2d2 at 2:11 PM on January 9 [2 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 2:11 PM on January 9 [2 favorites]
Couple random thoughts on this:
The LAST person to threaten Denmark with "military coercion" if they don't accede to territorial demands was Adolph Hitler.
Someone needs to ask Trump exactly WHY - if this is really an urgent national security crisis - why he failed address this in his FIRST term.
NATO is, of course, committed to defending Denmark/Greenland from attack.
Isn't this a clear symptom of dementia? If he was raving this nonsense on a street corner, wouldn't he be taken in for a psych evalution?
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 3:37 PM on January 9 [4 favorites]
The LAST person to threaten Denmark with "military coercion" if they don't accede to territorial demands was Adolph Hitler.
Someone needs to ask Trump exactly WHY - if this is really an urgent national security crisis - why he failed address this in his FIRST term.
NATO is, of course, committed to defending Denmark/Greenland from attack.
Isn't this a clear symptom of dementia? If he was raving this nonsense on a street corner, wouldn't he be taken in for a psych evalution?
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 3:37 PM on January 9 [4 favorites]
It's been a pretty intense news day in Denmark. I wonder how people are reacting in Panama?
Some things I learnt:
Greenlandic trust in the US has dampened considerably since Trump tried to buy Greenland back in 2019. A majority of Greenlanders want independence, but with some form of association with Denmark for defence and other purposes. As I imagined, some are also looking to Norway and Canada for partnerships.
Greenland is a socialist country. We Danes mostly hate it when Americans call us socialist, because we have big capitalist conglomerates here. But in Greenland, almost everything is owned by the state and most people are employed in the state, or independently employed, but as providers to state companies. There is an extensive welfare system and education from pre-school to university is free, of course. The far right of Greenland politics is at or to the left of the Social Democrats in Denmark. A vast majority of Greenlanders are well aware that the US does not support socialism.
What I wrote in a comment above was confirmed: many, probably most Greenlanders are well aware of how the Inuk in Alaska, and Indigenous Peoples in general are treated in the US and don't want any part of it. BUT, there are some young people who are fascinated by US culture and imagine they can gain access to all the luxury they see on social media. Speaking of social media, X is not really a thing in Greenland (or Denmark) but TikTok and Instagram are big.
There was a voxpop about Danish racism towards Greenlandic people, something Trump Jr. brought up, and I was actually surprised at how few incidents the interviewed Greenlanders had experienced. And basically all of them were when they were kids. Thinking about it, I think there has been a sea change during the last decade, which is great. We are seeing more and more great Greenlanders in the media, and that colors everyone's perception.
Paradoxically, some among the younger generations of Greenlanders are quite radical anti-colonialists, even though the racism is dying out and independence is near. Or not, because of Trump.
All of this is relevant because there is a planned general election in Greenland this year, before April, and one of the big themes is independence. Depending on who wins, there might well be a referendum on independence later during 2025.
The right wing populist party in Denmark, DF, claims that the reason Trump (or his backers) is (are) concerned is that an independent Greenland might seek closer cooperation with China, within the Belt and Road framework, which is what Panama already has done. This sounds plausible, and Claudia Meloni of Italy is hinting at the same thing. Since there is an international network of right-wing nationalists where these are both members, I'm guessing they know something. Note that the Australian mining company that is suing Greenland is partly owned by a Chinese company.
So while Trumps behaviour is unusual and crude, the underlying issues are something any US administration would worry about and want to discuss. And to be honest, the US does not have a good record when it comes to conversations with smaller nations who cross their interest, regardless of who is president.
The current administration in Greenland was elected on its opposition to the planned mine, so even though they are on the opposite end of the political spectrum to Trump (or any US president), they agreed on the end result, and hence there has been no need for discussions with the Biden administration. That said, the situations in Ukraine and the Middle East have been huge distractions from the situation in the Arctic, and more attention should probably have been paid.
posted by mumimor at 4:30 PM on January 9 [27 favorites]
Some things I learnt:
Greenlandic trust in the US has dampened considerably since Trump tried to buy Greenland back in 2019. A majority of Greenlanders want independence, but with some form of association with Denmark for defence and other purposes. As I imagined, some are also looking to Norway and Canada for partnerships.
Greenland is a socialist country. We Danes mostly hate it when Americans call us socialist, because we have big capitalist conglomerates here. But in Greenland, almost everything is owned by the state and most people are employed in the state, or independently employed, but as providers to state companies. There is an extensive welfare system and education from pre-school to university is free, of course. The far right of Greenland politics is at or to the left of the Social Democrats in Denmark. A vast majority of Greenlanders are well aware that the US does not support socialism.
What I wrote in a comment above was confirmed: many, probably most Greenlanders are well aware of how the Inuk in Alaska, and Indigenous Peoples in general are treated in the US and don't want any part of it. BUT, there are some young people who are fascinated by US culture and imagine they can gain access to all the luxury they see on social media. Speaking of social media, X is not really a thing in Greenland (or Denmark) but TikTok and Instagram are big.
There was a voxpop about Danish racism towards Greenlandic people, something Trump Jr. brought up, and I was actually surprised at how few incidents the interviewed Greenlanders had experienced. And basically all of them were when they were kids. Thinking about it, I think there has been a sea change during the last decade, which is great. We are seeing more and more great Greenlanders in the media, and that colors everyone's perception.
Paradoxically, some among the younger generations of Greenlanders are quite radical anti-colonialists, even though the racism is dying out and independence is near. Or not, because of Trump.
All of this is relevant because there is a planned general election in Greenland this year, before April, and one of the big themes is independence. Depending on who wins, there might well be a referendum on independence later during 2025.
The right wing populist party in Denmark, DF, claims that the reason Trump (or his backers) is (are) concerned is that an independent Greenland might seek closer cooperation with China, within the Belt and Road framework, which is what Panama already has done. This sounds plausible, and Claudia Meloni of Italy is hinting at the same thing. Since there is an international network of right-wing nationalists where these are both members, I'm guessing they know something. Note that the Australian mining company that is suing Greenland is partly owned by a Chinese company.
So while Trumps behaviour is unusual and crude, the underlying issues are something any US administration would worry about and want to discuss. And to be honest, the US does not have a good record when it comes to conversations with smaller nations who cross their interest, regardless of who is president.
The current administration in Greenland was elected on its opposition to the planned mine, so even though they are on the opposite end of the political spectrum to Trump (or any US president), they agreed on the end result, and hence there has been no need for discussions with the Biden administration. That said, the situations in Ukraine and the Middle East have been huge distractions from the situation in the Arctic, and more attention should probably have been paid.
posted by mumimor at 4:30 PM on January 9 [27 favorites]
> an independent Greenland might seek closer cooperation with China
Which, of course, is absolutely something they would have every right to do if they chose to become an independent nation, and, you know, the US shouldn't actually be allowed to rule the world by threatening to invade any country that does something that upsets billionaires. If they don't want Greenland allying with China, the US is free to offer a better deal.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:12 PM on January 9 [10 favorites]
Which, of course, is absolutely something they would have every right to do if they chose to become an independent nation, and, you know, the US shouldn't actually be allowed to rule the world by threatening to invade any country that does something that upsets billionaires. If they don't want Greenland allying with China, the US is free to offer a better deal.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:12 PM on January 9 [10 favorites]
"I’m glad they’re helping their new province." lol
posted by jeffburdges at 8:08 PM on January 9 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 8:08 PM on January 9 [1 favorite]
Mod note: [Thanks so much for the great explanation to help us in understanding WTAF, mumimor! Added to the sidebar and Best Of blog (and sympathies on the alternate reality nagdoubt, Glinn. Same here)!]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:45 PM on January 10 [3 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:45 PM on January 10 [3 favorites]
Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo just put out a piece called Down the Rabbit Hole of the Greenland Tech-Bro State.
That should be a gift link readable by non-members but just in case it's not, the TL;DR is that amongst the millionaire/billionaire tech-bros circling Trump one of the ideas some of these nimrods have is to create a new libertarian or "tech-monarchy" country by raising funds & finding citizens online and then buying actual land to create the country on. And Greenland has gotten some attention from these dudes partly because they think Musk could use it as a testing ground for his Mars colony ideas, since parts of Greenland are, like Mars, very cold and rocky.
(Marshall doesn't think this is really any kind of serious motivator for Trump, he's just pointing out that there are multiple axes for this development of right wing interest in Greenland.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:46 AM on January 11 [3 favorites]
That should be a gift link readable by non-members but just in case it's not, the TL;DR is that amongst the millionaire/billionaire tech-bros circling Trump one of the ideas some of these nimrods have is to create a new libertarian or "tech-monarchy" country by raising funds & finding citizens online and then buying actual land to create the country on. And Greenland has gotten some attention from these dudes partly because they think Musk could use it as a testing ground for his Mars colony ideas, since parts of Greenland are, like Mars, very cold and rocky.
(Marshall doesn't think this is really any kind of serious motivator for Trump, he's just pointing out that there are multiple axes for this development of right wing interest in Greenland.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:46 AM on January 11 [3 favorites]
Greenland is not much like Mars. Mount Everest would be the closest.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:02 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 1:02 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Trump refuses to rule out using military to take Panama Canal and Greenland
As a person from Denmark, this has made me consider a scenario where the Danes leave NATO and support Russia instead. I've come up with a slogan for it:
Rootin' for Putin: Dump the Trump!
(Please don't take this comment too seriously.)
posted by WalkingAround at 4:45 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
As a person from Denmark, this has made me consider a scenario where the Danes leave NATO and support Russia instead. I've come up with a slogan for it:
Rootin' for Putin: Dump the Trump!
(Please don't take this comment too seriously.)
posted by WalkingAround at 4:45 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
Trump 2.0 and climate: The risks you may not have thought about yet
posted by jeffburdges at 4:22 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 4:22 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Massive Ice Raids announced in Chicago, for after Trump gets sworn in (via)
posted by jeffburdges at 10:20 PM on January 18
posted by jeffburdges at 10:20 PM on January 18
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posted by mittens at 5:14 PM on January 7 [86 favorites]