Images, Reputations and Sounds of Patti Smith

December 30, 2002 12:54 AM

Is It Better To Look Marvellous Than To Sound Marvellous? Like The Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop and (controversially) David Bowie, Patti Smith, specially when photographed by Robert Mapplethorpe, looked way cooler than she sounded, imho. What other rock legends were more beautiful than the music they made? And, conversely, which artists' music was better than the image they projected?
posted by MiguelCardoso (86 comments total)

Ok, i'll bite: Avril Lavigne, Christina Aguilera and Britney Spears all look way better than they sound. (or are they not 'rock legend' enough?)
posted by Mijnkopthee at 1:10 AM on December 30, 2002

I'm dismayed. I think the Velvet Underground sounded better than they looked, and they looked pretty damned cool. Same with Iggy Stooge. 80% of the time I'm with you on Bowie though...
posted by Fabulon7 at 1:12 AM on December 30, 2002

Jimi sounded worse than he looked, and he still sounded great to me.

Of course, I still think Dylan sounded great, so what do I know?

Lennon sang like an angel, and looked(and wrote) like an Irish prophet.

Billy Gibbons sounds better than he looks.

Nirvana always looked exactly how they sounded, and now always will.

And the Pixies always looked and sounded like they should.

Funny world, ain't it?
posted by dglynn at 1:17 AM on December 30, 2002

I found that for most people this also is the case when picking mates. Or watching actors. Very few actors (sean connery, robin williams) make a name out of how they sound. When was the last time you went to a movie blindfolded? I did it today.
posted by woil at 1:22 AM on December 30, 2002

Prince sounds a lot better than he looks. Other than that I couldn't think of any artist I (really) like that doesn't do the full package. If not beautiful then at least 'interesting'.

Also, Mr MijnKopThee... really, I'd rather hear those girls give it to me one more time, than have to watch 'em at it.
posted by prolific at 1:25 AM on December 30, 2002

Response to question 2: Shane MacGowan: beautiful voice, but not a pretty man
posted by smich at 1:43 AM on December 30, 2002

Patti Smith, Patti Smith. Absolutely brilliant three albums. Did she sound beautiful? Well, should she? Did she look beautiful? Well, should she? I'm not sure either of these are relevant. But by god she made great music.
posted by ivan007 at 2:12 AM on December 30, 2002

Robert Johnson looked like he sounded.

Tom Waits has honed his image to a fair approximation of his music.

Joe Jackson has this voodoo out-of-body Mel Torme thing going on where the image and the voice are so different that it's like seeing a favorite radio personality for the first time in person.

Then there's Kiss. Enough said.

I'm not sure where to put Diamanda Galas, or this guy, or captain kirk, but Shane McGowan is so clearly in.
posted by hama7 at 2:16 AM on December 30, 2002

Great post and great topic...

I was always disappointed seeing what Muddy Waters looked like. Don't get me wrong, he a was great looking guy. He just never looked as mean as his music sounded.
posted by ttrendel at 2:38 AM on December 30, 2002

I'm sorry? Patti Smith looked better than she sounded?!? Have you been drinking Miguel?
posted by i_cola at 3:21 AM on December 30, 2002

Muddy Waters? Aw, you just caught him in the wrong mood.
posted by hama7 at 3:24 AM on December 30, 2002

My favorite contrast between sound and appearance is The Specials. Especially in the early days, they were mostly reedy British guys playing tough-sounding ska.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:25 AM on December 30, 2002

aguilerra is an incredibly talented singer. has been since she was 5. once she sprouted boobs though, her 'advisors' brought in an army of 'make up artists' and tried to turn her into the 2nd brittney, and succeeded only in turning her into some sort of underbridge-dwelling orc. i doubt she'll ever recover.
posted by quonsar at 4:33 AM on December 30, 2002

Is It Better To Look Marvellous Than To Sound Marvellous?

It's better to be marvellous.
posted by signal at 5:33 AM on December 30, 2002

Is It Better To Look Marvellous Than To Sound Marvellous?

WTF are you talking about? If you're referring to Iggy Pop of The Stooges era, they are one of the most influential bands in rock, especially punk rock and without them and MC5 many, many bands would not exist. And yes, they sound marvellous.
posted by CoolHandPuke at 6:01 AM on December 30, 2002

With the examples cited - VU, Iggy etc - the look and the sound go together. They are an organic whole. It's called an attitude I believe. So to split them seems a bit odd.
posted by Summer at 6:28 AM on December 30, 2002

So to split them seems a bit odd.

This whole post seems odd. Goes against the guidelines and acts as a rock music poll. Yuck.
posted by machaus at 6:34 AM on December 30, 2002

I always thought Patti Smith sounded great; a refreshing, earthy alternative to the "fluffy" female singers of the time (Streisand, Newton-John, Ronstadt).

I wouldn't call Devo's music "beautiful", but I liked it, and they were all pretty average-looking...in fact, my brother often said that Mark Mothersbaugh looked like the kind of kid that sat in front of you in school and smelled like salami.
posted by Oriole Adams at 6:46 AM on December 30, 2002

to get back on topic,

i've always had a theory that if black francis had been as good looking as kurt cobain...................the pixies were easily the better band of the two and were there first . Its been openly admitted that 'smells like teen spirit' is a rip off of 'subbacultcha' by the pixies.
If you put nevermind against doolittle the pixies win hands down ..but people like blond hair uh?

i picture machaus as a slim , bespectacled guy with slick backed hair hunched over his keyboard like an inverted c and with long fingers sitting in a library...............yourself miguel.........i continually see you as a man sitting on his balcony enjoying the heat of a portugese afternoon thinking of enjoyable things to post on meta ..and popping into your house now and then....maybe a bit like a toreador or something...or a jolly man with a beard and glasses...

but who knows? perhaps machaus looks like a supermodel and you look like himmler dragged backwards through a hedge .
But i love you both anyway.

ps patti smith = overrated.
posted by sgt.serenity at 7:00 AM on December 30, 2002

Iggy Pop and David Bowie looked better than they sounded? Oh please... I was going to say that is such an obvious troll, but then I remembered... Bob Dylan is the obvious troll in this debate. Well, maybe a goblin rather than a troll, but he's still pretty durn ugly. And he sounds like an elderly farmer having genital surgery without anaesthetic.
And another thing... the guy that Bruce Lee tricks into getting into a little rowboat in Enter the Dragon looks uncannily like Brian Ferry.
posted by RokkitNite at 7:07 AM on December 30, 2002

James Hetfield of Metallica once described his band as "ugly guys singing about ugly shit to ugly music."

That could describe a lot of my favorites come to think of it now.

Despite what modern imagemongers and the music business would have you believe, "the beautiful people" really don't have a place in real rock and roll, do they?
posted by jonmc at 7:17 AM on December 30, 2002

Only if they have beautiful minds as well.
posted by prolific at 7:27 AM on December 30, 2002

Elizabeth Fraser of Cocteau Twins. I love her voice.. but I don't find her that attractive.
posted by Akuinnen at 7:29 AM on December 30, 2002

shes cute ! how dare you !
posted by sgt.serenity at 7:38 AM on December 30, 2002

sgt.serenity: himmler through the hedge :-)
posted by quonsar at 7:38 AM on December 30, 2002

A curious post. I don't find Patti Smith physically beautiful, but Robert Mapplethorpe's imagery is. It's the contrast his works strikes with the gaunt, harsh look of Smith coupled with the light and shadow that appeals to me. As I've matured looks matter less and less and the message and its delivery are what count. My musical tastes include the music of Patti Smith, Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop, Tom Waits, Lou Reed, Leonard Cohen and many other musicians of the "not-so-beautiful" ilk. And on the subject of David Bowie and his famous area, I find the man amazing to look at and listen to. What I find sad are singers with amazing voices such as Mariah Carey and Christine Aguilera who rely more on sex appeal than talent. While the Mariahs and Christines of the world aren't my type of tuneage, I can appreciate a beautiful voice, but what is their message? And, Celine Dion, don't get me started...the voice is huge, but ugh! Aretha Franklin isn't exactly aging beautifully, but that woman has a voice and a stage presence I'd pay to dollar to hear and see in person. It seems to me that the beauty fades away and the message is what lingers.
posted by VelvetHellvis at 7:43 AM on December 30, 2002

For the voice that does NOT match the appearance, look no further than the chick from Romeo Void.
posted by shmeggy at 7:59 AM on December 30, 2002

Obviously, everyone has different opinions about "what is beauty" and "what is good music." For example, I don't find Beck particularly sexy, but he made the VH1 Top 100 Sexiest artists list. Somebody must find him sexy. On the other hand, I dig his music. Many of my friends can't stand his music. Same thing with Moby.

Thus Miguel's question has no definitive answer.

However, while on the subject of mahor ugly rock bands, how could we get this far into a topic without sending out props to the three big uglies: Motorhead, Rush and the Cars?
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:01 AM on December 30, 2002

Oh, no, Senhor, that paranthetical "(controversially)" will not spare you this time! All kidding aside, even more than the other examples cited, wouldn't you agree that Bowie's look(s) are integral to his overall performance, including the writing and production? He's not just famous for being a "chameleon," for the most part he's actually pulled it off. His writing has grown and while he's as prone as any musician to the occasional mis-hit, I maintain he is the only popular musician of his generation to not only perform continuously but remain relevant while moving forward.
posted by JollyWanker at 8:13 AM on December 30, 2002

Lyle Lovett... not a looker, but good musician!
posted by bmxGirl at 8:18 AM on December 30, 2002

Ella Fitzgerald's music was amazingly beautiful but she was quite ugly. Although in some pictures she looks like she might be attractive but you know how much artists are pampered up for those so-called "photographs".

Serge Gainsbourgh is the ugliest man that's ever lived, but he is appealing to look at. Turns out image and attractivness have nothing to do with each other. Mr. Gainsbourgh has one of the greatest images, even if only by virtue of his attractive girlfriends (though that's really not it). And who else would ask Whitney Houston to sleep with him (rather crudely too) on national french television?
Oh and his music definitly is as appealing as his image. Esp on "Percussions"...
posted by klik99 at 8:21 AM on December 30, 2002

For people of my generation (baby boomers), photographs were tremendously important and we emulated the looks of whoever we most liked (I was a teen John Lennon clone). There was thought to be authenticity in looking just as you sounded - the posters who said Nirvana achieve this 100% and Prince just 1% are dead right, in my opinion.

I didn't mean to discuss beauty at all - just aural/imagetic coherence. The "mahvellous" thing arose because I was reminded of the Fernando character that Billy Crystal played on SNL in the early 80's and was meant tongue-in-cheek.

Not that, in the meantime, my assumptions haven't been shot to pieces by the thread. ;)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:23 AM on December 30, 2002

Complete match: The Waitresses.
posted by swift at 8:37 AM on December 30, 2002

it's hands down better to sound better than look better. if you sound cool, you'll look cool. look at dylan and the ramones fer chrissakes.
posted by alfredogarcia at 8:39 AM on December 30, 2002

Patti Smith is underrated. Her output has always been a bit uneven and political content is going to make someone unhappy, but she rocks. I've seen her several times and her live shows blew me away.
posted by monkeyman at 9:12 AM on December 30, 2002

In the United States these days image is everything and substance is nothing. We market our Politicians, prescription drugs, everything. Look at the success of Milli Vanilli, boy bands etc. Quonsar pointed out Christina's talent, but she chose to be incredibly rich instead of incredibly good.

Miguel, sorry, but you did intend to discuss beauty when you asked the question : What other rock legends were more beautiful than the music they made? Isn't that just a question of personal taste? Plus, an artists portrayal of them isn't really about their image, but what that artist sees in them. I like the music created by the people in your post, and I really don't think about what they look like. I don't believe they were packaging an image to sell records, but that they were just being themselves, unlike much of the popular music today. MTV pretty much killed the chances of most ugly bands.

I am strangely reminded of the SNL sketch spoofing Billy Idol. The Album was "Right face, wrong voice", and the lyric was something like "I look like Sting, but I sing like Bing."
posted by Eekacat at 9:42 AM on December 30, 2002

Lately, I find myself thinking about my many and various reactions to Tori Amos. My opinion of her or her music has never really settled. She's so beautiful and so... gauche for lack of a better word. It's not like whats-her-name from Hole who just irritates me and I ignore her. I have a much harder time ignoring Tori. I find her music and lyrics much more rewarding and worthy of consideration than many others. Even though she irritates me, I'll come around and start thinking she's funny, or deep or very cool or something but then I'll go around and not like her again. It's like there's a lot there and I can only take so much, you know?

After listening to _Little Earthquakes_ I felt like I knew her personally. A lot of other people did too. I think she's been beating a lyrical and musical retreat ever since. And I don't blame her—let Jewel and Alanis and all the other "painfully" "honest" artists take up the slack. But she's still around, making records, doing her thing, she still an amazing musician and singer and still beautiful too in her own weird way. It's like she can't exactly let go either.

Oh, and Bill Miller rules.
posted by wobh at 9:48 AM on December 30, 2002

Russell Crowe is an ugly mother, but his music sure is great!
posted by dhoyt at 9:55 AM on December 30, 2002

One band whose look and sound always seemed to match for me was Milli Vanilli--oh, wait.
posted by SoftRain at 10:05 AM on December 30, 2002

Debbie Harry (circa 1978) looked way better than she sounded.
posted by Devils Slide at 10:15 AM on December 30, 2002

MTV pretty much killed the chances of most ugly bands.

Eekacat, have you seen Limp Bizkit? :-)
posted by quonsar at 10:18 AM on December 30, 2002

Eekacat, have you seen Limp Bizkit?
Quonsar, errr no, but I did say "most"! ;-)
Though I am sure their image is carefully crafted to appear "alternative" just the same.
posted by Eekacat at 10:27 AM on December 30, 2002

a letter from hendrix to his dad, august 1965 (via boing boing)

Nowadays people don't want you to sing good. They want you to sing sloppy and have a good beat to your songs. That's what angle I'm going to shoot for. That's where the money is. So just in case about three or four months from now you might hear a record by me which sounds terrible, don't feel ashamed, just wait until the money rolls in because every day people are singing worse and worse on purpose and the public buys more and more records.
posted by kliuless at 10:30 AM on December 30, 2002

Tom Petty sounds better than he looks, and looks different than he sounds.
posted by rainbaby at 10:35 AM on December 30, 2002 [1 favorite]

The Doors have enjoyed 35 years of music business success because Jim Morrison died before he got too fat.
posted by timeistight at 10:42 AM on December 30, 2002

Three things:

Nickelback's lead singer looks like the soulless hack that he is.

I've always quite liked Dave Grohl's ability to appear very cool and very self-effacing at the same time. Also, he looks a little cooler than Foo Fighters have sounded lately, but then again he looked less cool Nirvana sounded for a long time. So maybe it balances out.

Finally, anyone who thinks the Velvet Underground were stronger in looks than in sound needs to listen to more Velvet Underground. Or else is thinking exclusively of Nico.
posted by gompa at 10:45 AM on December 30, 2002

...the career of his brother Van, on the other hand, has been hampered because he sounds like Ray Charles but looks like a leprechaun.
posted by timeistight at 10:46 AM on December 30, 2002

(I was a teen John Lennon clone)

Okay, now who wants to see a pic of Miguel as a teenaged John Lennon clone?

*raises hand*
posted by Vidiot at 11:13 AM on December 30, 2002

Miguel! You blasphemous shitfuck!
posted by dong_resin at 11:25 AM on December 30, 2002

The winner hands down here is Merle Haggard who sounds better and better and looks, well, worse for the wear.

As for Muddy Waters: If you saw him in person back when, there would be no questions.

As for Bob Dylan, well, he once was young.

The question is, will you look or sound as good as any of the above at any equivalent age?
posted by y2karl at 11:34 AM on December 30, 2002

dong_resin: if you're going to call Miguel names like that, at least do it in Portugese.

My favorite contrast between sound and appearance is The Specials.

This is not exactly the subject of the original post, but to me the greatest contrast between s. and a. is my favorite sappy singer, Aaron Neville, who looks like he might do some real damage to you in an alley. Great voice, great look.
posted by LeLiLo at 11:39 AM on December 30, 2002

ed -
yeah the residents are an intresting case, by hiding their faces they created a pretty unique image.
I guess that's what Gorillaz was going for, but not as succesfully, more contrived imo, although many people may not agree with that.

image in pop music these days is boring, it's all about irony. strokes, the hives, its very pretensious, im waiting for the next man who can do it like bowie can.
posted by klik99 at 11:40 AM on December 30, 2002

...the career of his brother Van, on the other hand, has been hampered because he sounds like Ray Charles but looks like a leprechaun.

I dunno, timestight. I was brought up on the NME and Jim's brother (hee hee) Van Morrison was always lauded for being so absolutely uncool - even when he went Christian and duetted with Cliff feckin' Richard. Perhaps the dubious hats helped.

Miguel! You blasphemous shitfuck!

I admit the troll, dong. But I'm moving today so what do I care? ;)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:41 AM on December 30, 2002

Y2karl: Merle Haggard looks great! It's not everybody that has such a well-chosen adjective as a surname.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:43 AM on December 30, 2002

What about Pat Benatar?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:55 AM on December 30, 2002

My thoughts exactly. What about Pat Benetar.
posted by dhoyt at 12:02 PM on December 30, 2002

What about Pat Benatar?
she ever get her overbite fixed?
posted by quonsar at 12:04 PM on December 30, 2002

It's not everybody that has such a well-chosen adjective as a surname.

Yeah, well, Merle, Willie Nelson and Keith Richards are textbook examples of how the sportin' life will leave you looking...

Which reminds me of that bon mot of Oscar Wilde's --

Twenty years of romance make a woman look like a ruin, but twenty years of marriage make her something like a public building.

posted by y2karl at 12:12 PM on December 30, 2002

King Crimson. Great music- what a bunch of dorks.
posted by oflinkey at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2002

Leonard Cohen, Jimi Hendrix, Jethro Tull, Marc Bolan, Joy Division, The Pixies and Nirvana are the best look like/sound like 100/100 match. They look exactly what they sound like. The worst are Miles Davis (for the jackets alone!); Diana Krall; The Tindersticks; George Clinton; Prince; Harry Connick Jr, Radiohead and David Gray.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2002

bootsy looks like the mothership crashed on him.
posted by quonsar at 12:53 PM on December 30, 2002

No commentary on the masters, but I thought that Daniel Bedingfield guy was a girl, according to a listen of the ridiculously catchy "Gotta Get Through This." Just for the record.
posted by raysmj at 12:55 PM on December 30, 2002

Ok, i'll bite: Avril Lavigne, Christina Aguilera and Britney Spears all look way better than they sound.

I don't know! Have you seen Avril Lavigne without all of that eye makeup on? She's no picnic.

My vote goes to Shakira in all of this. She can't sing for toffee (she sure can yodel though), but she definitely has the whole image thing going.

raysmj: Join the club! I always thought it was just a female vocalist, since it's common for the artist not to appear on their own tracks in the British charts.. but, doh, it's him!
posted by wackybrit at 1:10 PM on December 30, 2002

What about Pat Benatar?
she ever get her overbite fixed?

Actually, she has an underbite. An overbite is when the upper teeth extend well past the lower teeth (like Moe from the Simpsons), and an underbite is the reverse (a Bulldog has an underbite, as does Pat Benatar). Here endeth the pedantry.
posted by biscotti at 1:35 PM on December 30, 2002

What? No one's mentioned the Insane Clown Posse yet?

I saw both the Specials and Madness in 1980 and they looked cool enough then--plus both bands had a shark skinned suited dancer in a stingy brim fedora for onstage ambiance, not to mention head butting.. And man, did those guys dance fast.... It made me feel old--then!--just to watch them.
posted by y2karl at 1:41 PM on December 30, 2002

How about the Mighty Mighty Bosstones?

Good match. Dicky Barrett is The Man. And Ben's pretty darned kewl too...
posted by Vidiot at 2:41 PM on December 30, 2002

I would say Korn, but they sound as bad as they look.
posted by blue_beetle at 2:53 PM on December 30, 2002

First off...Pat Benatar...looks and sounds great.

Next, Shania Twain is, at least, being wildly candid about her approach to selling records...look good and make songs that her fans want to hear...no artistic pretense whatsoever...and it's working.

Not that beauty has anything to do with my preference for Diana Krall and Jane Monheit.
posted by treywhit at 2:57 PM on December 30, 2002

What other rock legends were more beautiful than the music they made?

Nobody's mentioned The Strokes yet. I nominate them. They aren't legends, but you wouldn't know that from their press.
posted by blucevalo at 3:16 PM on December 30, 2002

Peter Lemonjello looked the same as he sounded.
posted by HTuttle at 3:30 PM on December 30, 2002

dong_resin: Miguel! You blasphemous shitfuck!

i don't know if this was meant as a serious attack or not, but i have to say, that this comment caused me to laugh uncontrollably for a good five minutes.

i so hope one day someone calls me a 'blasphemous shitfuck', that has to be the best insult i've heard in weeks.

Thank you d_r.

[absolutely no snarkyness intended]
posted by quin at 3:51 PM on December 30, 2002

van morrison , discuss.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:51 PM on December 30, 2002

Bob Dylan died a couple of years ago -- he is currently being played by Vincent Price
posted by stvc15 at 4:21 PM on December 30, 2002

already did.
posted by timeistight at 4:21 PM on December 30, 2002

Nobody's mentioned The Strokes yet. I nominate them. They aren't legends, but you wouldn't know that from their press.

In that case I have to nominate the White Stripes! The funny thing is that even my mom likes the White Stripes now, despite them looking and sounding like crap. Still, I enjoy their tracks.. it's like eating McDonald's.. it's crap, but still enjoyable from time to time :-)
posted by wackybrit at 4:55 PM on December 30, 2002

ed: And then there's talent like Fatboy Slim, who refuses to appear in any of his music videos

Not entirely true. He's in both the Rockafeller Skank and Praise You videos. He's also been on the cover of just about every music magazine. Not what I would call keeping an image of non-existence.
posted by Monk at 5:43 PM on December 30, 2002

Ric Ocasek from the Cars looked a little odd, but sounded so rock star-ish.

From the first time I heard Holly Cole's voice I've had a huge crush on her and fantasized about meeting her and going on a date after one of her shows. Even after seeing her pictures...she's not ugly but she sure isn't my type. Of course, most people here probably haven't even heard of Holly Cole, which is a real pity.
posted by ashbury at 8:22 PM on December 30, 2002

Nobody has mentioned Maynard from Tool either. On CD he sounds so confident and large. In real life he looks a whole lot more like Gollum than Steve Buscemi does.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:06 PM on December 30, 2002

The funny thing is that even my mom likes the White Stripes now, despite them looking and sounding like crap.

The "Maureen Dowd Memorial Yuppie Love Eminem Syndrome" lives!
posted by blucevalo at 11:35 PM on December 30, 2002

eminem is a blasphemous shitfuck.
posted by quonsar at 4:33 AM on December 31, 2002

He wishes.
posted by dong_resin at 7:54 AM on December 31, 2002

GG Allin. Looked bad, sounded bad.
posted by misterioso at 9:50 AM on December 31, 2002

You want scary?
posted by y2karl at 9:03 PM on December 31, 2002

all of those artists looked and sounded good. square.
posted by Satapher at 1:15 AM on January 1, 2003

Miguel, you should have seen Patti Smith rocking out a New Year's Eve set last night. With her long gray hair and her man's suit she looked like Allen Ginsberg meets Stevie Nicks as a Central European panhandler. It really worked on her -- and she could and would totally kick your ass.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 2:39 PM on January 1, 2003

and succeeded only in turning [Aguilerra] into some sort of underbridge-dwelling orc. i doubt she'll ever recover.

I don't know. I have hope though. Allegedly, Etta James is one of Aguilerra's favorites. Maybe when she's too old to be marketed as a Pop Tart, she'll exercise her talent a little more. I could be totally wrong, but I've got a feeling that Aguilerra's career will be a lot like Madonna's, with lots of reinventions every few years. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's still around in 20 years.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:03 PM on January 1, 2003