Outspoken Vidal makes dire accusations
January 15, 2003 8:17 AM Subscribe
Outspoken Vidal makes dire accusations I have always liked Vidal for his skills as a writer and his wit and his literary criticism...he seemed, though to be getting odd when he shifted from light humor about the Amreican political game to his mpore recent serious charges against American "imperialism."
Is he to be quicly dismissed as getting senile or is he perhaps on to something, since he usually supports with examples those things he attacks.
lets see, we have a warmongering robber baron and his rapacious crew of radical right-wingers running the country, who can indefinitely suspend anybody's constitutional rights at will and with no oversight, who is diverting huge sums of money into the pockets of those who least need it, while all the time spewing rousing patriotic swill that the public gobbles up with wild abandon. i think the real question is not if there is something wrong with vidal, but what the hell is wrong with everybody else?
posted by quonsar at 8:32 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by quonsar at 8:32 AM on January 15, 2003
Seems Gore's been spending a bit of time surfing those conspiracy sites...
posted by PenDevil at 8:34 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by PenDevil at 8:34 AM on January 15, 2003
"light humor about the Amreican political game" --when was that?
posted by muckster at 8:34 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by muckster at 8:34 AM on January 15, 2003
Vidal has proven his intelligence well beyond what anyone could ask for, yet when he thinks to question the intelligence of a president who has yet to prove anything at all other than the ability to oversocialize, Vidal is accused of senility?
posted by Space Coyote at 8:35 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by Space Coyote at 8:35 AM on January 15, 2003
What I want to see is Christopher Hitchens and Gore Vidal duke it out. Would make for a much better debate than anything CNN/Fox News/MSNBC has on offer.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:38 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by Space Coyote at 8:38 AM on January 15, 2003
the intelligence of a president who has yet to prove anything at all other than the ability to oversocialize
can you fly a jet fighter
did you graduate from Harvard
ever own a baseball team
father DCI and president?
Vidal is just yammering, collecting tokens on his little predictions which are common place and really no predictions at all. I don't mind when BIG SAM gets criticism, hell, I welcome it. I just wish mailer woulda kicked the crap outta him.
what i want to see is Thom. Jefferson rising from his grave and beating the semantics outta GORE then a scathing phone call to Ken Burns to ask him why he let Vidal appear in his documentary.
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 AM on January 15, 2003
can you fly a jet fighter
did you graduate from Harvard
ever own a baseball team
father DCI and president?
Vidal is just yammering, collecting tokens on his little predictions which are common place and really no predictions at all. I don't mind when BIG SAM gets criticism, hell, I welcome it. I just wish mailer woulda kicked the crap outta him.
what i want to see is Thom. Jefferson rising from his grave and beating the semantics outta GORE then a scathing phone call to Ken Burns to ask him why he let Vidal appear in his documentary.
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 AM on January 15, 2003
Another view: The United States of America has gone mad.
posted by rushmc at 8:45 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by rushmc at 8:45 AM on January 15, 2003
can you fly a jet fighter
did you graduate from Harvard
ever own a baseball team
father DCI and president?
You know he did trade Sammy Sosa to the Cubs...
posted by Space Coyote at 8:53 AM on January 15, 2003
did you graduate from Harvard
ever own a baseball team
father DCI and president?
You know he did trade Sammy Sosa to the Cubs...
posted by Space Coyote at 8:53 AM on January 15, 2003
can you fly a jet fighter
no, I can't, but there's a lack of evidence mr Bush can do it, either (ah, those Vietnam-era National Reserve rich-daddy patriots...)
did you graduate from Harvard
no I didn't, but isn't Harvard a contemptible factory of treasonous communists (with the possible exception of the good Dr. Kissinger of Cambridge and Cambodia, of course)
ever own a baseball team
no, unfortunately my honest, decent, hard-working Dad could only buy me a Red Sox hat, the team itself was a tad too expensive for his pockets (I could have made a killing off of my shares sale, too)
father DCI and president?
no, Thank God. also: I'm no alcoholic/cokehead either
anyway, Vidal's "junta" book already discussed here
posted by matteo at 8:59 AM on January 15, 2003
no, I can't, but there's a lack of evidence mr Bush can do it, either (ah, those Vietnam-era National Reserve rich-daddy patriots...)
did you graduate from Harvard
no I didn't, but isn't Harvard a contemptible factory of treasonous communists (with the possible exception of the good Dr. Kissinger of Cambridge and Cambodia, of course)
ever own a baseball team
no, unfortunately my honest, decent, hard-working Dad could only buy me a Red Sox hat, the team itself was a tad too expensive for his pockets (I could have made a killing off of my shares sale, too)
father DCI and president?
no, Thank God. also: I'm no alcoholic/cokehead either
anyway, Vidal's "junta" book already discussed here
posted by matteo at 8:59 AM on January 15, 2003
Le Carre,he is now pissing his pants with no SOVS to watch. What a whiny piece froma writer i like. Maybe john needs a refresher course on nation-state madness. Iraq is no threat to it's neighbors? what a second rate intel guy. why does Turkey worry about the Kurds. Why do Saudis eye saddam with a LEARY EYE. He makes it sound like Saddam is a mad man but a controllable madman and thats o.k.....right. Oh, our created madman....like Nasser....like Tito...like Hilter....like Lenin (though Lenin was not mad IMO just sneaky and clever.)
Heays these are worse then the Mccarthy era...shit the H.u.a.c was around in one form or another since the 30's. He is right about one thing, war was imminent before Bin Laden struck....whoia... big news flash.
second biggest oil feild...who has the first...Saudis....Kaz-ick-stan?
and his bumper sticker gauge on american patriotism is lame and micro-anal.
posted by clavdivs at 9:04 AM on January 15, 2003
Heays these are worse then the Mccarthy era...shit the H.u.a.c was around in one form or another since the 30's. He is right about one thing, war was imminent before Bin Laden struck....whoia... big news flash.
second biggest oil feild...who has the first...Saudis....Kaz-ick-stan?
and his bumper sticker gauge on american patriotism is lame and micro-anal.
posted by clavdivs at 9:04 AM on January 15, 2003
Vidal has been talking and writing about this (American empire) for many years; he didn't just come out of the woodwork after 9-11. I've never viewed it as "light humor." You could hardly call the guy senile when what he says today is consistent with what he was saying (and predicting) twenty years ago.
posted by troybob at 9:15 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by troybob at 9:15 AM on January 15, 2003
can you fly a jet fighter
I'm sure I could with the proper training, as could a good persentage of the population.
did you graduate from Harvard
Oooh, harvard. You mean the school that sets asside a portion of it's seats for 'legacy' applicants like shrub? This guy couldn't even get into the University of Texas, but suddenly he gets into harvard.
We're also talking about 'real-world' acomplishments, which graduating dosn't count.
ever own a baseball team
Never owned a losing baseball team either.
father DCI and president?
How hard is it to rase two fat alcholic teenagers? I'm not sure what you mean by DCI, but president? he's doing an awful job of that.
posted by delmoi at 9:19 AM on January 15, 2003
I'm sure I could with the proper training, as could a good persentage of the population.
did you graduate from Harvard
Oooh, harvard. You mean the school that sets asside a portion of it's seats for 'legacy' applicants like shrub? This guy couldn't even get into the University of Texas, but suddenly he gets into harvard.
We're also talking about 'real-world' acomplishments, which graduating dosn't count.
ever own a baseball team
Never owned a losing baseball team either.
father DCI and president?
How hard is it to rase two fat alcholic teenagers? I'm not sure what you mean by DCI, but president? he's doing an awful job of that.
posted by delmoi at 9:19 AM on January 15, 2003
Is he to be quicly dismissed as getting senile or is he perhaps on to something, since he usually supports with examples those things he attacks.
He's on to something.
can you fly a jet fighter
did you graduate from Harvard
Were you a failure at business no matter how much money you were handed and how many connections you started out with?
While war or rumor of war usually jumpstarts an economy, is your war causing speculation on rising oil prices, thus pushing up raw material costs and beating Manufacturing to death, thus hurting the economy?
Jeez, he can't even warmonger right.
posted by Shane at 9:21 AM on January 15, 2003
He's on to something.
can you fly a jet fighter
did you graduate from Harvard
Were you a failure at business no matter how much money you were handed and how many connections you started out with?
While war or rumor of war usually jumpstarts an economy, is your war causing speculation on rising oil prices, thus pushing up raw material costs and beating Manufacturing to death, thus hurting the economy?
Jeez, he can't even warmonger right.
posted by Shane at 9:21 AM on January 15, 2003
Well, lets just sit back and hear a few words from the Commander and Chief himself: State of the Union, remixed.
quicktime movie, 6.9mb
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:25 AM on January 15, 2003
quicktime movie, 6.9mb
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:25 AM on January 15, 2003
I'm not playing stupid here, can anyone speculate what is keeping the Bush administration from unveiling the evidence it has that Saddam has WoMD? Is there concern for the safety of intelligence operatives? So far, the only rational member of the press questioning Bush's claims seems to be this guy.
posted by machaus at 9:47 AM on January 15, 2003
posted by machaus at 9:47 AM on January 15, 2003
Can you spell percentage... ?
This percentage...it vibrates?
posted by iamck at 9:51 AM on January 15, 2003
This percentage...it vibrates?
posted by iamck at 9:51 AM on January 15, 2003
did you graduate from Harvard
No, but I did graduate from Yale. Hey, wait a sec...
thanks for the video, elwood
posted by Dick Paris at 10:08 AM on January 15, 2003
No, but I did graduate from Yale. Hey, wait a sec...
thanks for the video, elwood
posted by Dick Paris at 10:08 AM on January 15, 2003
machaus: It may be that the US is waiting until they actually have completed their military buildup and are ready to attack before going public, hoping to give the anti-war folks (in Iraq and the UN and other countries) as little time as possible to react. It's a reasonable strategy for them to follow, and in keeping with past behavior.
It's also possible that they don't have any hard evidence.
posted by jaek at 10:10 AM on January 15, 2003
It's also possible that they don't have any hard evidence.
posted by jaek at 10:10 AM on January 15, 2003
father DCI and president?
I think what the right honorable clavdivs meant was that Bush's father was the head of the CIA and President of the USA. Apparently, Bush pere owes it all to his son. Maybe W was secretly aiding his dad's political career as he lay in a puddle of his own sick on the frathouse bathroom floor.
posted by jpoulos at 10:29 AM on January 15, 2003
I think what the right honorable clavdivs meant was that Bush's father was the head of the CIA and President of the USA. Apparently, Bush pere owes it all to his son. Maybe W was secretly aiding his dad's political career as he lay in a puddle of his own sick on the frathouse bathroom floor.
posted by jpoulos at 10:29 AM on January 15, 2003
The time for being "light" or "nice" has passed.
If you want to stand with the imperialists and the robber barons, don't come crying to me when you get kicked in the teeth.
And you will get what is due, my friend.
posted by 2sheets at 10:34 AM on January 15, 2003
If you want to stand with the imperialists and the robber barons, don't come crying to me when you get kicked in the teeth.
And you will get what is due, my friend.
posted by 2sheets at 10:34 AM on January 15, 2003
look, i am not fond of the guy (prez) but i expect more from Gore, he seems to only get things right or accurate when reading from a script.
Were you a failure at business no matter how much money you were handed and how many connections you started out with?
Billy Durant lost his empire (G.M. and others) 3 times.....THREE. He Came from some money but wished to "do it on his own" ( "on your own": a falsehood alot of people believe) But Durant had the hustle and vision...now Gdub and business...different ballgame. But connections are what gets one successful, generally, in life. Funny, Durant went and talked to Herbert Hoover just before the stock crash of 29' predicting "imminent collapse" he was ignored and glad handed. But alot of people had foresight into the 29' crash.
I don't think POTUS is gonna take questions from the press corp about "wind speeds" and "payloads"; verifying to see if he really was in the Nat'l guard and eligible to fly jets...don't you think someone has thought of that.
What about VENONA....anyone want to talk about that as topic to the comparison? Contrast of (percieved) ((pre-cieved;) civil liberties loss in american history?
and more important; would Paul Muni have played a good Shrub in the pictures.
Me, i wanted to be the first kid on the block to go to Harvard. Had to settle for COWMICH (uofm) The other guy on the other block got to go to Harvard. Me, i woulda chosen Yale if i had the brains.
Listen, we are not in this "war" for brotherly love. Wisdom has always been a infrequent aspect in america, IMO.
The time for Wisdom is gone. Cuba? The october, 62'event is a cakewalk in comparison , the only difference is the immediate tension of looming war with an "enemy" that could turn cities into dust piles. Today(as then) one could turn part of a city into god-knows-what...but we would have to look at the list now...the one of who we turn to glass EVEN if they did not do it. That is the madness Gore TRIES to Grasp. His WWII laurels are rotted my friends and he has learned little.
different ballgame.
posted by clavdivs at 11:30 AM on January 15, 2003 [1 favorite]
Were you a failure at business no matter how much money you were handed and how many connections you started out with?
Billy Durant lost his empire (G.M. and others) 3 times.....THREE. He Came from some money but wished to "do it on his own" ( "on your own": a falsehood alot of people believe) But Durant had the hustle and vision...now Gdub and business...different ballgame. But connections are what gets one successful, generally, in life. Funny, Durant went and talked to Herbert Hoover just before the stock crash of 29' predicting "imminent collapse" he was ignored and glad handed. But alot of people had foresight into the 29' crash.
I don't think POTUS is gonna take questions from the press corp about "wind speeds" and "payloads"; verifying to see if he really was in the Nat'l guard and eligible to fly jets...don't you think someone has thought of that.
What about VENONA....anyone want to talk about that as topic to the comparison? Contrast of (percieved) ((pre-cieved;) civil liberties loss in american history?
and more important; would Paul Muni have played a good Shrub in the pictures.
Me, i wanted to be the first kid on the block to go to Harvard. Had to settle for COWMICH (uofm) The other guy on the other block got to go to Harvard. Me, i woulda chosen Yale if i had the brains.
Listen, we are not in this "war" for brotherly love. Wisdom has always been a infrequent aspect in america, IMO.
The time for Wisdom is gone. Cuba? The october, 62'event is a cakewalk in comparison , the only difference is the immediate tension of looming war with an "enemy" that could turn cities into dust piles. Today(as then) one could turn part of a city into god-knows-what...but we would have to look at the list now...the one of who we turn to glass EVEN if they did not do it. That is the madness Gore TRIES to Grasp. His WWII laurels are rotted my friends and he has learned little.
different ballgame.
posted by clavdivs at 11:30 AM on January 15, 2003 [1 favorite]
secretly aiding his dad's political career as he lay in a puddle of his own sick on the frathouse bathroom floor.
quonsar ♥'s jpoulos.
posted by quonsar at 11:43 AM on January 15, 2003
quonsar ♥'s jpoulos.
posted by quonsar at 11:43 AM on January 15, 2003
I think what the right honorable clavdivs meant was that Bush's father was the head of the CIA and President of the USA. Apparently, Bush pere owes it all to his son. Maybe W was secretly aiding his dad's political career as he lay in a puddle of his own sick on the frathouse bathroom floor.
Granted, we may be more than a bit confused about clavdivs' semantics, given the syntax employed. Apparently his point was that the intelligence measure of our verbally-challenged and illegitimate president is somehow tied to that of his father (the Einstein-like Bush Sr.) See, the children take after their father...you get it? Or maybe the father somehow takes after the children. He lost me on that point.
But regardless of which direction it flows, I think he's got a point there....just you look downstream at Shrub's daughters.
And I couldn't agree more with him as he generalizes about the intelligence of pilots, baseball team owners, and business owners. Why, just consider those geniuses who flew jets into the World Trade Towers after years of intense training. Then there's Marge Schott. And business owners....yeah, the intelligence necessary to sell something for more than you paid for it is astounding (don't know where failed business owners fall on the Clavdivs' Reasoning-Analogies-Probe scale, but hey, they were goddamned business owners and that counts for a helluva lot in some minds, you hear?)
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:01 PM on January 15, 2003
Granted, we may be more than a bit confused about clavdivs' semantics, given the syntax employed. Apparently his point was that the intelligence measure of our verbally-challenged and illegitimate president is somehow tied to that of his father (the Einstein-like Bush Sr.) See, the children take after their father...you get it? Or maybe the father somehow takes after the children. He lost me on that point.
But regardless of which direction it flows, I think he's got a point there....just you look downstream at Shrub's daughters.
And I couldn't agree more with him as he generalizes about the intelligence of pilots, baseball team owners, and business owners. Why, just consider those geniuses who flew jets into the World Trade Towers after years of intense training. Then there's Marge Schott. And business owners....yeah, the intelligence necessary to sell something for more than you paid for it is astounding (don't know where failed business owners fall on the Clavdivs' Reasoning-Analogies-Probe scale, but hey, they were goddamned business owners and that counts for a helluva lot in some minds, you hear?)
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:01 PM on January 15, 2003
I think Vidal is a great novelist and critic, and much of his commentary on the U.S.'s transformation from republic to empire is spot-on, but he's making some serious accusations of Bush here without offering anything resembling proof. It's one thing to say that Bush has manipulated the 9/11 attacks to political advantage in the most heinous way (he has), quite another to say Bushhad foreknowledge of the attacks and allowed them to happen.
Show me the proof, Gore.
posted by Ty Webb at 12:27 PM on January 15, 2003
Show me the proof, Gore.
posted by Ty Webb at 12:27 PM on January 15, 2003
My God, clavdivs really IS from Michigan. I always assumed he was from a land far, far away.
clavdivs, you're ruining all of your unique and special Yoda-like charm by discussing politics.
posted by Shane at 12:36 PM on January 15, 2003
clavdivs, you're ruining all of your unique and special Yoda-like charm by discussing politics.
posted by Shane at 12:36 PM on January 15, 2003
foldy, i made more frikkin sense and cut to the f&%*#*% chase in my last post then you EVER will my troll in never-land...the semantic line-DCI is an acronym and anyone with any political knowledge knows this. Jpoulus was just refreshing those whom did not know this term...no skin off his teeth. I should have spelled it.....FOR YOU....since you take umbrage....your so frikkin one sided you wouldn't know Al Lawson (early baseball manager/player and inventor...namely THE AIRLINER) from Pete Rose. You, foldy remind of his ideas...imploded and set into a cage of ferrets
to sell something for more than you paid for it is astounding
yeah, that Adam Smith had Ricardo nailed eh...analogies...come on mutey, frikkin moms analogous.
you just do not like stuttering emperors.
See, the children take after their father...you get it?
i hate generalizations of this kind...didn't anyone tell you the Beethoven analogy.
frikkin Yoda? thanks shane can you marry my mom? There is no charm in me. Yoda. He smart enough to see the chancellors plot, he wise enough to 'Just say no' to Skywalkers...
deal with the info folks not the personality because this is all this Gore-Bush talk is.
posted by clavdivs at 12:49 PM on January 15, 2003 [1 favorite]
to sell something for more than you paid for it is astounding
yeah, that Adam Smith had Ricardo nailed eh...analogies...come on mutey, frikkin moms analogous.
you just do not like stuttering emperors.
See, the children take after their father...you get it?
i hate generalizations of this kind...didn't anyone tell you the Beethoven analogy.
frikkin Yoda? thanks shane can you marry my mom? There is no charm in me. Yoda. He smart enough to see the chancellors plot, he wise enough to 'Just say no' to Skywalkers...
deal with the info folks not the personality because this is all this Gore-Bush talk is.
posted by clavdivs at 12:49 PM on January 15, 2003 [1 favorite]
[The] point was that the intelligence measure of our verbally-challenged and illegitimate president is somehow tied to that of his father (the Einstein-like Bush Sr.)
I thought the point was, Bush's daddy was President, what the heck does your daddy do for a living? Sell vacuum cleaners? Nyah nyah! His daddy was illegally and unconstitutionally funding rapists and murderers in Central America while yours was just a wage slave...
Now that's something to be proud of.
But hey, Wm Casey died for Ron and daddy Geo's sins, admitted to hospital with symptoms eerily similar to those caused by sodium pentathol, just before he could testify before the Congressional committees, days before he would have attended the Senate hearings...
And practically no one noticed or said a word. Publically, anyway.
you just do not like stuttering emperors.
That's more like it! Good one, clavdivs.
posted by Shane at 12:56 PM on January 15, 2003
I thought the point was, Bush's daddy was President, what the heck does your daddy do for a living? Sell vacuum cleaners? Nyah nyah! His daddy was illegally and unconstitutionally funding rapists and murderers in Central America while yours was just a wage slave...
Now that's something to be proud of.
But hey, Wm Casey died for Ron and daddy Geo's sins, admitted to hospital with symptoms eerily similar to those caused by sodium pentathol, just before he could testify before the Congressional committees, days before he would have attended the Senate hearings...
And practically no one noticed or said a word. Publically, anyway.
you just do not like stuttering emperors.
That's more like it! Good one, clavdivs.
posted by Shane at 12:56 PM on January 15, 2003
I hate Bush, I didn't vote for him and I'd like to see nothing more to see him gone in '04. I agree in principle with is:
lets see, we have a warmongering robber baron and his rapacious crew of radical right-wingers running the country, who can indefinitely suspend anybody's constitutional rights at will and with no oversight, who is diverting huge sums of money into the pockets of those who least need it, while all the time spewing rousing patriotic swill that the public gobbles up with wild abandon. i think the real question is not if there is something wrong with vidal, but what the hell is wrong with everybody else?
Unfortunately this statement is flawed, oversimplified and just untrue on many on levels. It assumes that the office of the US president holds all the power and rules as a monarch, discounts the over two branches of US government, power politics and over 225 years of US political history. Bush is bad, if fact I think he's worst than bad. However, quonsar's statement undermines its own credibility and thus robs it of any persuasive value. Statements likes these are useless and show that many on the left (like many on the right) have no intention of creating useful dialog or even hope to improve the world, but merely what want to slander or make cheap jokes. This only drives away would-be supporters and hardens those who oppose us. I hope Gore Vidal's book is far more nuanced and in touch with reality so that it may persuade more people we are in the moral right on may issues. In fact, Bush's ratings are dropping to all time lows. What does that tell us? Patience, education and long-term strategy do more than troll and hypocrisy. Perhaps voters are getting the message. A lot of people are fearful and ignorant, but we on the left need not fall into that trap. Let us on the left embrace the rest of America and teach them and show them the error of the Bush's way. After all, more than 50% did not vote for Bush, that tells me more likely than not a majority of votes do embrace him or is core political and economic values. It's time to build on that. We at a pivotal time, the right is falling into disfavor, let’s not blow this chance. Even if we loose in the end at least we fought the battle with honor, dignity and did not undermine our own cause. Calling people stupid does not help, in fact it can do nothing but hurt.
posted by Bag Man at 1:05 PM on January 15, 2003
lets see, we have a warmongering robber baron and his rapacious crew of radical right-wingers running the country, who can indefinitely suspend anybody's constitutional rights at will and with no oversight, who is diverting huge sums of money into the pockets of those who least need it, while all the time spewing rousing patriotic swill that the public gobbles up with wild abandon. i think the real question is not if there is something wrong with vidal, but what the hell is wrong with everybody else?
Unfortunately this statement is flawed, oversimplified and just untrue on many on levels. It assumes that the office of the US president holds all the power and rules as a monarch, discounts the over two branches of US government, power politics and over 225 years of US political history. Bush is bad, if fact I think he's worst than bad. However, quonsar's statement undermines its own credibility and thus robs it of any persuasive value. Statements likes these are useless and show that many on the left (like many on the right) have no intention of creating useful dialog or even hope to improve the world, but merely what want to slander or make cheap jokes. This only drives away would-be supporters and hardens those who oppose us. I hope Gore Vidal's book is far more nuanced and in touch with reality so that it may persuade more people we are in the moral right on may issues. In fact, Bush's ratings are dropping to all time lows. What does that tell us? Patience, education and long-term strategy do more than troll and hypocrisy. Perhaps voters are getting the message. A lot of people are fearful and ignorant, but we on the left need not fall into that trap. Let us on the left embrace the rest of America and teach them and show them the error of the Bush's way. After all, more than 50% did not vote for Bush, that tells me more likely than not a majority of votes do embrace him or is core political and economic values. It's time to build on that. We at a pivotal time, the right is falling into disfavor, let’s not blow this chance. Even if we loose in the end at least we fought the battle with honor, dignity and did not undermine our own cause. Calling people stupid does not help, in fact it can do nothing but hurt.
posted by Bag Man at 1:05 PM on January 15, 2003
I didn't mean to criticize Yoda, clavdivs. I just mean you're not as fun when you're arguing politics heatedly. Yoda is one of my heroes. Really. Of course, so is Foldy.
posted by Shane at 1:07 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by Shane at 1:07 PM on January 15, 2003
Shane, there is friendly jabbing, like the Yoda, which i like and theres foldy. He can construct an argument fasting then three-card monte guys, but Bagman is right, the empire analogy is invalid. Historical precedents like VENOA show this country has sustained far greater civil liberty issues, this is my point. I think Gore is wrong. He was accurate about Jefferson but Jefferson supported the CPS (committee of Public safety...France 179?) I think Burns used Gore like Beatty used Miller in 'Reds'. Dif is, Gore sounds like Mr. Howell whilst Miller sounded, well like Miller...i quote...."there waz jus as much Fhuccckking goin on back then as now.."
as a side note, anyone read 'Memories of the Ford administration'
posted by clavdivs at 1:30 PM on January 15, 2003
as a side note, anyone read 'Memories of the Ford administration'
posted by clavdivs at 1:30 PM on January 15, 2003
Just warms my heart to see Marge Schott and Pete Rose together again. Er, what was the thread about again?
posted by Dick Paris at 1:37 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by Dick Paris at 1:37 PM on January 15, 2003
just curious...about parallels and analogies and all.
posted by clavdivs at 1:44 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by clavdivs at 1:44 PM on January 15, 2003
Like, Bush = Buchanan (the prez, not the present-time right-winh nut)?
The historian as self-obsessed bullshit artist? Gore Vidal = the novel's professor?
What?
posted by matteo at 1:51 PM on January 15, 2003
The historian as self-obsessed bullshit artist? Gore Vidal = the novel's professor?
What?
posted by matteo at 1:51 PM on January 15, 2003
I remember reading Vidal's Enemy Within a few months ago and agreeing pretty heavily with his assertions. I've been wrong before, of course, but the case for this administration's cynicism is stronger than the case for full-blown ineptitude.
Vidal may ultimately be badly marginalized by having the courage to candidly assert what many might more openly discuss, but for the era of 'with us or against us'. Either way, the guy makes a few hard to ignore points that warrant closer inspection, and that's still more valuable to this ostensibly free society than the pumping of endless "Ain't they great?!" sewage into the public well.
posted by Tiger_Lily at 1:56 PM on January 15, 2003
Vidal may ultimately be badly marginalized by having the courage to candidly assert what many might more openly discuss, but for the era of 'with us or against us'. Either way, the guy makes a few hard to ignore points that warrant closer inspection, and that's still more valuable to this ostensibly free society than the pumping of endless "Ain't they great?!" sewage into the public well.
posted by Tiger_Lily at 1:56 PM on January 15, 2003
Yes matteo, the lack-isdaisical nature of historgraphy, professorship at banal levels... left over things...recycled things.
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on January 15, 2003
quonsar's statement undermines its own credibility and thus robs it of any persuasive value.
neville chamberlain used to think like that.
posted by quonsar at 2:10 PM on January 15, 2003
neville chamberlain used to think like that.
posted by quonsar at 2:10 PM on January 15, 2003
Bagman is right, the empire analogy is invalid.
Yoda...
...brings us to...
Anyone else see an analogy forming in the latest Star Wars movie?
The Republic is turning into an Empire. What is turning it into an Empire? The fear of rebels and of war. The Republic has given supreme authority to the head of its Senate to deal with these threats, "temporarily" eroding the democratic process. The Republic is raising an army that will eventually become the Stormtroopers of the Empire (seen in the original Star Wars and the first trilogy).
By giving in to its fears, the whole Republic is going over to the Dark Side.
I'm just curious if anyone else noticed this.
posted by Shane at 2:12 PM on January 15, 2003
Yoda...
...brings us to...
Anyone else see an analogy forming in the latest Star Wars movie?
The Republic is turning into an Empire. What is turning it into an Empire? The fear of rebels and of war. The Republic has given supreme authority to the head of its Senate to deal with these threats, "temporarily" eroding the democratic process. The Republic is raising an army that will eventually become the Stormtroopers of the Empire (seen in the original Star Wars and the first trilogy).
By giving in to its fears, the whole Republic is going over to the Dark Side.
I'm just curious if anyone else noticed this.
posted by Shane at 2:12 PM on January 15, 2003
Yes, I have. And if you want to carry it any further, note that Palpatine fabricated the "phantom menace" that made him chancellor. See, Lucas proves Vidal right.
posted by muckster at 2:34 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by muckster at 2:34 PM on January 15, 2003
So who would the Jedi Knights be? The editorial staff of the Nation? Give me a break.
posted by Ty Webb at 2:38 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by Ty Webb at 2:38 PM on January 15, 2003
What is turning it into an Empire?
i thought it was that turncoat darkmage from Naboo. The one who looks oddly like Joe Leiberman.
Yes, I have. And if you want to carry it any further, note that Palpatine fabricated the "phantom menace" that made him chancellor. See, Lucas proves Vidal right.
same plot as "House of Cards".
posted by clavdivs at 2:47 PM on January 15, 2003
i thought it was that turncoat darkmage from Naboo. The one who looks oddly like Joe Leiberman.
Yes, I have. And if you want to carry it any further, note that Palpatine fabricated the "phantom menace" that made him chancellor. See, Lucas proves Vidal right.
same plot as "House of Cards".
posted by clavdivs at 2:47 PM on January 15, 2003
Show me the proof, Gore.
Seems a lot to ask of one man on the outside. What about the other 280 million Americans? Seems like some of them could help. Perhaps an investigative panel, at the very least? Oh, wait, Kissinger's busy.
Calling people stupid does not help
I disagree. It rarely helps to persuade them, but it DOES help maintain a realistic perspective. Some people ARE stupid. Some people behave stupidly. Others are simply ignorant, misinformed, or uncaring. All of the above are as much the enemy (though possible converts to ally-status) as the truly depraved, selfish and evil with their hands on the tiller.
I hadn't realized how quiet it'd been around here with clavdivs gone.
posted by rushmc at 2:57 PM on January 15, 2003
Seems a lot to ask of one man on the outside. What about the other 280 million Americans? Seems like some of them could help. Perhaps an investigative panel, at the very least? Oh, wait, Kissinger's busy.
Calling people stupid does not help
I disagree. It rarely helps to persuade them, but it DOES help maintain a realistic perspective. Some people ARE stupid. Some people behave stupidly. Others are simply ignorant, misinformed, or uncaring. All of the above are as much the enemy (though possible converts to ally-status) as the truly depraved, selfish and evil with their hands on the tiller.
I hadn't realized how quiet it'd been around here with clavdivs gone.
posted by rushmc at 2:57 PM on January 15, 2003
Show me the proof, Gore.
Seems a lot to ask of one man on the outside.
Yes, because it's a very serious charge. Vidal's making the accusation, he should back it up (obviously). If 280 million Americans would like to help him, great.
posted by Ty Webb at 3:04 PM on January 15, 2003
Seems a lot to ask of one man on the outside.
Yes, because it's a very serious charge. Vidal's making the accusation, he should back it up (obviously). If 280 million Americans would like to help him, great.
posted by Ty Webb at 3:04 PM on January 15, 2003
Even yet still more on the republic--empire dialectic.
posted by Sonny Jim at 4:03 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by Sonny Jim at 4:03 PM on January 15, 2003
Vidal's making the accusation, he should back it up (obviously)
I'm not sure it can rightly be called an "accusation" until he crosses the libel/slander line. I guess I disagree that everyone who raises a question must be expected to provide a full and complete answer along with it. If such a standard were enforced, near-silence would reign. I prefer to look at it this way: Vidal has made an hypothesis. If it sounds interesting and plausible to someone in a position to investigate it further, then they can try to falsify it.
posted by rushmc at 4:49 PM on January 15, 2003
I'm not sure it can rightly be called an "accusation" until he crosses the libel/slander line. I guess I disagree that everyone who raises a question must be expected to provide a full and complete answer along with it. If such a standard were enforced, near-silence would reign. I prefer to look at it this way: Vidal has made an hypothesis. If it sounds interesting and plausible to someone in a position to investigate it further, then they can try to falsify it.
posted by rushmc at 4:49 PM on January 15, 2003
rushmc:I'm not sure it can rightly be called an "accusation" until he crosses the libel/slander line.
from the article:
The book's centerpiece is the lengthy, precise and often humorous essay "Goat Song: Unanswered Questions Before, During and After 9/11." ...
...Here, Vidal makes a strong case for Bush's impeachment, stating outright rather than suggesting that the president not only knew the Sept. 11 attacks were coming, but that he let them happen in the interest of generating a curtain of patriotism behind which to push through his true agenda - invading Afghanistan to protect the interests of oil companies concerned with a pipeline there.
That sounds like an accusation to me.
rushmc:Vidal has made an hypothesis. If it sounds interesting and plausible to someone in a position to investigate it further, then they can try to falsify it.
You may call it whatever you like, but this remains: if I publish my hypothesis that rushmc likes to blow goats, shouldn't I offer some proof for that hypothesis, rather than offering the hypothesis and saying "falsify it if you can!" and asking others to prove a negative?
(The editors would like to add that Ty Webb in no way implies, accuses, or hypothesizes that rushmc likes to blow goats.)
posted by Ty Webb at 5:16 PM on January 15, 2003
from the article:
The book's centerpiece is the lengthy, precise and often humorous essay "Goat Song: Unanswered Questions Before, During and After 9/11." ...
...Here, Vidal makes a strong case for Bush's impeachment, stating outright rather than suggesting that the president not only knew the Sept. 11 attacks were coming, but that he let them happen in the interest of generating a curtain of patriotism behind which to push through his true agenda - invading Afghanistan to protect the interests of oil companies concerned with a pipeline there.
That sounds like an accusation to me.
rushmc:Vidal has made an hypothesis. If it sounds interesting and plausible to someone in a position to investigate it further, then they can try to falsify it.
You may call it whatever you like, but this remains: if I publish my hypothesis that rushmc likes to blow goats, shouldn't I offer some proof for that hypothesis, rather than offering the hypothesis and saying "falsify it if you can!" and asking others to prove a negative?
(The editors would like to add that Ty Webb in no way implies, accuses, or hypothesizes that rushmc likes to blow goats.)
posted by Ty Webb at 5:16 PM on January 15, 2003
If not "proof," then at least a chain of reasoning to support such a contention--and perhaps he has done this, I haven't read his argument. Actual proof (as in hard, irrefutable evidence) is not always easy to obtain in circumstances where those in control of it wish to keep it hidden, and if no one asks the questions to begin an investigation, it may never be rooted out.
posted by rushmc at 5:31 PM on January 15, 2003
posted by rushmc at 5:31 PM on January 15, 2003
Although I agree with pretty much everything Le Carré has to say in the piece rushmc linked - I've been trying to figure out why Americans are letting GWB and his scumbag brigade run their nation into the dirt, too - I think it's a dodge and a sign of intellectual cowardice to merely say "Well, America's gone mad! Boogah boogah boogah!"
I don't have any better explanation for the growing evil, other than laziness and media-hypnotism, but I'm pretty sure Le Carré's isn't it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:33 PM on January 15, 2003
I don't have any better explanation for the growing evil, other than laziness and media-hypnotism, but I'm pretty sure Le Carré's isn't it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:33 PM on January 15, 2003
Auuugghhhhh!
If Lucy would just quit pulling that football away at the last moment, I'd kick it outta the park!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:43 PM on January 15, 2003
If Lucy would just quit pulling that football away at the last moment, I'd kick it outta the park!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:43 PM on January 15, 2003
Great post. Don't always agree w/Vidal (and have some quibbles about his comments here) but nonetheless a good read.
:)
posted by pjammer at 8:57 PM on January 15, 2003
:)
posted by pjammer at 8:57 PM on January 15, 2003
Dick Paris - Bastard! (Bush Graduated from YALE, not Harvard, as Clavdivs claimed) - I wanted to make that point!
And about that baseball team...the Rangers' owners 'donated' their stock shares in the team to GW ($15 million to GW Bush's $1 million share) while GW was SITTING GOVERNER of TEXAS....
...EARNED ???... how about "inherited?"
StavrosWonderChicken: your answer is......Ed Bernays
I doubt anyone has noted: Gore Vidal was born (like Kevin Phillips) into the aristocratic ( in social/political/economic terms) class he now loathes.
Anyone care to venture why?
posted by troutfishing at 9:25 PM on January 15, 2003
And about that baseball team...the Rangers' owners 'donated' their stock shares in the team to GW ($15 million to GW Bush's $1 million share) while GW was SITTING GOVERNER of TEXAS....
...EARNED ???... how about "inherited?"
StavrosWonderChicken: your answer is......Ed Bernays
I doubt anyone has noted: Gore Vidal was born (like Kevin Phillips) into the aristocratic ( in social/political/economic terms) class he now loathes.
Anyone care to venture why?
posted by troutfishing at 9:25 PM on January 15, 2003
Troutfisting (ha!, I'm still laughing about that one... ;-)
Did he not graduate from both?
posted by Dick Paris at 6:02 AM on January 16, 2003
Did he not graduate from both?
posted by Dick Paris at 6:02 AM on January 16, 2003
I doubt anyone has noted: Gore Vidal was born (like Kevin Phillips) into the aristocratic ( in social/political/economic terms) class he now loathes.
Anyone care to venture why?
Why he was born into the aristocratic class? So he could eventually expose their evil and hypocrisy. Just like I was born poor so I could struggle long enough to learn common sense and street smarts and empathy for salt-of-the-earth people, and then win the lottery and do good things. It's all part of the master plan.
Um, Supreme Being, I'm still waiting on that lottery...
posted by Shane at 7:56 AM on January 16, 2003
Anyone care to venture why?
Why he was born into the aristocratic class? So he could eventually expose their evil and hypocrisy. Just like I was born poor so I could struggle long enough to learn common sense and street smarts and empathy for salt-of-the-earth people, and then win the lottery and do good things. It's all part of the master plan.
Um, Supreme Being, I'm still waiting on that lottery...
posted by Shane at 7:56 AM on January 16, 2003
"I've been trying to figure out why Americans are letting GWB and his scumbag brigade run their nation into the dirt, too"...The man won the election so we have to do what he says. "the Rangers' owners 'donated' their stock shares in the team to GW ($15 million to GW Bush's $1 million share) while GW was SITTING GOVERNER of TEXAS"....please check your facts. GW bought his Rangers stock in 1989 and was elected governor in 1994. The whole seedy story is here, but a short recap: GW's investment of $606,302 (1.8 percent of the $89 million original investment) was worth $14.9 million to him when the team was sold for $250 million. Like most folks here I expect some "proof" of Iraqi WMD before invasion, and I expect no less from Gore Vidal or anyone else's conspiracy theories before I pay much attention.
posted by Mack Twain at 1:12 PM on January 16, 2003
posted by Mack Twain at 1:12 PM on January 16, 2003
The man won the election so we have to do what he says.
No, he didn't.
posted by rushmc at 1:30 PM on January 16, 2003
No, he didn't.
posted by rushmc at 1:30 PM on January 16, 2003
(Um, he didn't win the election ... and also, we don't have to "do what he says" -- ever hear of balance of power? I realize that Bush thinks that he owns the sandbox and can piss all over it to his heart's delight, but that isn't the case.)
posted by maura at 1:39 PM on January 16, 2003
posted by maura at 1:39 PM on January 16, 2003
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posted by archimago at 8:31 AM on January 15, 2003