FTC's National
March 12, 2003 11:26 AM Subscribe
The Federal Trade Commission's National "Do Not Call" Registry, intended to stop unwanted telemarketing calls, became law yesterday. Do telemarketers have a First Amendment right to call you? The Direct Marketing Association, and industry lobby, thinks so.
Corporations should never be considered as equals to persons and thus have no 1st Amendment rights.
Corporations are soulless entities with no moral guidance or incentive to "do the right thing," only a profit motive.
Ferengi rules of acquisition apply to corporations, not our Constitution.
Are telemarketers willing to pay my phone bill and for my time? I bill at a minimum of $175 an hour with a 4 hour minimum.
posted by nofundy at 12:17 PM on March 12, 2003
Corporations are soulless entities with no moral guidance or incentive to "do the right thing," only a profit motive.
Ferengi rules of acquisition apply to corporations, not our Constitution.
Are telemarketers willing to pay my phone bill and for my time? I bill at a minimum of $175 an hour with a 4 hour minimum.
posted by nofundy at 12:17 PM on March 12, 2003
I wouldn't mind if they called and the first words out of their mouth were "Would you be interested in hearing information about product/service X?" and then I could just say, "No thanks, good bye". Most folks probably wouldn't mind that.
However, they don't work that way. They call and immediately launch into questions via a script. And the scripts are designed with a counter for every possible reason you would say no, and they insist on taking you through every possibly "No" scenario. And they all talk so damned fast for minutes at a time and ignore you trying to say "No!" hoping you'll agree just to shut them up. And they try to make you feel stupid if you ignore their "fantastic" offer. And then, if you fight back, they get abusive. And finally, when you actually manage to convince them you're not interested, they just hang up on you.
This isn't about their right to free speech. That right ends as soon as it becomes harassment, and the above tactics-- almost universally employed in my experience--constitute harassment as far as I'm concerned.
Screw 'em.
posted by Swifty at 12:24 PM on March 12, 2003
However, they don't work that way. They call and immediately launch into questions via a script. And the scripts are designed with a counter for every possible reason you would say no, and they insist on taking you through every possibly "No" scenario. And they all talk so damned fast for minutes at a time and ignore you trying to say "No!" hoping you'll agree just to shut them up. And they try to make you feel stupid if you ignore their "fantastic" offer. And then, if you fight back, they get abusive. And finally, when you actually manage to convince them you're not interested, they just hang up on you.
This isn't about their right to free speech. That right ends as soon as it becomes harassment, and the above tactics-- almost universally employed in my experience--constitute harassment as far as I'm concerned.
Screw 'em.
posted by Swifty at 12:24 PM on March 12, 2003
I wouldn't mind if they called and the first words out of their mouth were "Would you be interested in hearing information about product/service X?" and then I could just say, "No thanks, good bye". Most folks probably wouldn't mind that.
I'd still mind. I especially mind when they block caller ID, which is just weird: why on earth would I buy something from someone who's gone out of their way to hide their identity?
Like SPAM, telemarketing has gotten completely out of control. I know people who no longer answer their phone (or even have the ringer turned on) because of the sheer volume of sales calls they receive.
Do telemarketers have a First Amendment right to call you? The Direct Marketing Association, and industry lobby, thinks so.
The DMA can drink a big tall glass of my wee. I'll even put a little head on it.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 12:39 PM on March 12, 2003
I'd still mind. I especially mind when they block caller ID, which is just weird: why on earth would I buy something from someone who's gone out of their way to hide their identity?
Like SPAM, telemarketing has gotten completely out of control. I know people who no longer answer their phone (or even have the ringer turned on) because of the sheer volume of sales calls they receive.
Do telemarketers have a First Amendment right to call you? The Direct Marketing Association, and industry lobby, thinks so.
The DMA can drink a big tall glass of my wee. I'll even put a little head on it.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 12:39 PM on March 12, 2003
nofundy: If you frame the debate in terms of corporation vs. individual, it seems to me you have to allow sole proprietors and their employees to telemarket to you all they want.
It makes more sense to me to frame the issue in terms of property rights, as shepd did.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:51 PM on March 12, 2003
It makes more sense to me to frame the issue in terms of property rights, as shepd did.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:51 PM on March 12, 2003
The scripted calls are usually fairly obvious; if you cut in immediately and ask "Is this a sales call?" 90% of them will guiltily answer, "Uh, yeah," and you can politely ask to be put on their don't-call list. Pretty painless. (The remaining ten percent say "No, it isn't" and then launch back into the script. Them I just hang up on.)
It also helps, of course, that my wife and I have different last names; if they call either of us by the wrong name, the jig is up.
Swifty, why do you bother trying to talk your way out of the script? If they're that pushy, just hang up; it's not like they're going to call back more than 20 or 30 times before they get the message... ;)
This national list will be great, though even just telling each telemarketer you want to be put on their "don't call" list seems to work pretty well. We used to get tons of these calls; now it's just a handful, mostly pre-recorded ones that want you to call a 1-800 number. Which I do, repeatedly, when I'm feeling mischevious and want to run up their phone bill.
posted by ook at 12:52 PM on March 12, 2003
It also helps, of course, that my wife and I have different last names; if they call either of us by the wrong name, the jig is up.
Swifty, why do you bother trying to talk your way out of the script? If they're that pushy, just hang up; it's not like they're going to call back more than 20 or 30 times before they get the message... ;)
This national list will be great, though even just telling each telemarketer you want to be put on their "don't call" list seems to work pretty well. We used to get tons of these calls; now it's just a handful, mostly pre-recorded ones that want you to call a 1-800 number. Which I do, repeatedly, when I'm feeling mischevious and want to run up their phone bill.
posted by ook at 12:52 PM on March 12, 2003
I don't remember who said it first, but I like the idea of a National DO Call list better. The DMA would be free to call anyone on the list as often as they wished. Not on the list - no calls allowed. It wouldn't cost much to maintain the list because no sane person would sign up for it.
posted by trigfunctions at 12:54 PM on March 12, 2003
posted by trigfunctions at 12:54 PM on March 12, 2003
I was an inaugural member of the Texas No-Call List, and I no longer get anything but the occasional telemarketer-- usually SBC, with whom I have a business relationship so I can't avoid 'em.
While I'd prefer opt-in, the opt-out scheme does work (in Texas, at least).
posted by Cerebus at 1:23 PM on March 12, 2003
While I'd prefer opt-in, the opt-out scheme does work (in Texas, at least).
posted by Cerebus at 1:23 PM on March 12, 2003
trigfunctions, great idea. Now to get it implemented...
I'm a single woman who lives alone, so if they ask if Mr or Mrs. [my surname] is there, I can just say, "No," and hang up.
For awhile there I was getting prerecorded calls to advertise the sale of firewood. Uh, I live in a apartment.
And then there were a few times I got a prerecorded message from Leeza Gibbons. There's just such condescension in that tactic. Right, I'm so enthralled by this D list celeb that I'll be ready to listen to whatever she has to say when she couldn't even be bothered to call me herself.
But congratulations. This is the first time ever I've actually envied the Americans.
posted by orange swan at 1:24 PM on March 12, 2003
I'm a single woman who lives alone, so if they ask if Mr or Mrs. [my surname] is there, I can just say, "No," and hang up.
For awhile there I was getting prerecorded calls to advertise the sale of firewood. Uh, I live in a apartment.
And then there were a few times I got a prerecorded message from Leeza Gibbons. There's just such condescension in that tactic. Right, I'm so enthralled by this D list celeb that I'll be ready to listen to whatever she has to say when she couldn't even be bothered to call me herself.
But congratulations. This is the first time ever I've actually envied the Americans.
posted by orange swan at 1:24 PM on March 12, 2003
I just hang up. Who cares how fast they talk, who they ask for, etc?
posted by signal at 1:52 PM on March 12, 2003
posted by signal at 1:52 PM on March 12, 2003
It's more fun to mess with them. Especially if they tell you their name first. Just pretend they are a long-lost friend or relative or lover. Tell them they don't have to keep up the charade of phone calls. This really baffles them.
posted by agregoli at 1:58 PM on March 12, 2003
posted by agregoli at 1:58 PM on March 12, 2003
Do telemarketers have a First Amendment right to call you?
You may as well ask if it's okay to kill kittens.
posted by Homeskillet Freshy Fresh at 1:58 PM on March 12, 2003
You may as well ask if it's okay to kill kittens.
posted by Homeskillet Freshy Fresh at 1:58 PM on March 12, 2003
So, okay, we've been through telemarketers over and over.
My question is: Do y'all have a different response to telephone surveys or polls?
Working in the social research field (as distinct from marketing surveys), cooperation rate is a huge concern, and everyone gets shaky thinking about these sorts of lists (which generally don't apply to telephone surveys). However, it occurs to me that if people are able to gain a little more control over who is calling them, they might be more accepting of anonymous telephone surveys.
posted by claxton6 at 2:07 PM on March 12, 2003
My question is: Do y'all have a different response to telephone surveys or polls?
Working in the social research field (as distinct from marketing surveys), cooperation rate is a huge concern, and everyone gets shaky thinking about these sorts of lists (which generally don't apply to telephone surveys). However, it occurs to me that if people are able to gain a little more control over who is calling them, they might be more accepting of anonymous telephone surveys.
posted by claxton6 at 2:07 PM on March 12, 2003
I wouldn't mind if they called and the first words out of their mouth were "Would you be interested in hearing information about product/service X?" and then I could just say, "No thanks, good bye". Most folks probably wouldn't mind that.
For real fun, use the Seinfeld tactic. Politely ask the telemarketer for his/her name, and then ask them for their home phone number - telling them you'll be happy to call them that night at home to talk about their offer. They certainly won't give you their home phone, but it takes them way off-script, and there's also absolutely no reason they can give for not letting you call them at home that doesn't directly apply to the call they've made to you. It gets some of them positively apoplectic (there's a peculiar, dark satisfaction in getting a telemarketer so livid that they hang up on you).
Sounds kinda nasty, but I agree with Pink - it has gotten way out of hand. My father retired to Arizona, and unfortunately lives in an area that is highly targeted - the result being that he and most of his friends actually take their phones off the hook between 4pm and 8pm. Freedom of speech means you can stand on a corner and hawk any product you want to your heart's content. It doesn't mean you have the right to come into my kitchen during dinner and do so.
posted by MidasMulligan at 2:08 PM on March 12, 2003
For real fun, use the Seinfeld tactic. Politely ask the telemarketer for his/her name, and then ask them for their home phone number - telling them you'll be happy to call them that night at home to talk about their offer. They certainly won't give you their home phone, but it takes them way off-script, and there's also absolutely no reason they can give for not letting you call them at home that doesn't directly apply to the call they've made to you. It gets some of them positively apoplectic (there's a peculiar, dark satisfaction in getting a telemarketer so livid that they hang up on you).
Sounds kinda nasty, but I agree with Pink - it has gotten way out of hand. My father retired to Arizona, and unfortunately lives in an area that is highly targeted - the result being that he and most of his friends actually take their phones off the hook between 4pm and 8pm. Freedom of speech means you can stand on a corner and hawk any product you want to your heart's content. It doesn't mean you have the right to come into my kitchen during dinner and do so.
posted by MidasMulligan at 2:08 PM on March 12, 2003
Freedom of speech means you can stand on a corner and hawk any product you want to your heart's content.
With a license. I was calling municipal offices recently about busking -- not anywhere near as important as free speech, but related, anyway -- and there were two things I found out. One was that if you were going to be selling something (like a CD, if you were busking), you'd need a license. Fair enough. The other one, though, was that the city "encouraged" you to call a special permits division if you were going to making a political speech or rally. Hmmm. I can see how this could keep the cops of your back and legitimize you a bit, but it's sort of scary.
And totally off topic, now that I think about it. I don't think telemarketers have any right to the phone I own and line I lease at all.
posted by namespan at 2:33 PM on March 12, 2003
With a license. I was calling municipal offices recently about busking -- not anywhere near as important as free speech, but related, anyway -- and there were two things I found out. One was that if you were going to be selling something (like a CD, if you were busking), you'd need a license. Fair enough. The other one, though, was that the city "encouraged" you to call a special permits division if you were going to making a political speech or rally. Hmmm. I can see how this could keep the cops of your back and legitimize you a bit, but it's sort of scary.
And totally off topic, now that I think about it. I don't think telemarketers have any right to the phone I own and line I lease at all.
posted by namespan at 2:33 PM on March 12, 2003
ahem:
YES!
And of course the first amendment thing is bullshit for all the obvious reasons. I can't even believe they found people shameless enough to bring that to the courts.
posted by kavasa at 3:54 PM on March 12, 2003
YES!
And of course the first amendment thing is bullshit for all the obvious reasons. I can't even believe they found people shameless enough to bring that to the courts.
posted by kavasa at 3:54 PM on March 12, 2003
Also thought I'd add a little comment here to note that fucking with telemarketers is not witty and does not baffle them. They have heard it all within a month of accepting their shitty new job, and the only thing they hate more than you at that point is themselves. Just sayin'.
posted by kavasa at 3:55 PM on March 12, 2003
posted by kavasa at 3:55 PM on March 12, 2003
>and the only thing they hate more than you at that point is themselves.
And there's a problem with that?
Maybe at some point they'll hate themselves enough they'll be too depressed to come to work?
Sounds like a cure to me!
posted by shepd at 4:23 PM on March 12, 2003
And there's a problem with that?
Maybe at some point they'll hate themselves enough they'll be too depressed to come to work?
Sounds like a cure to me!
posted by shepd at 4:23 PM on March 12, 2003
"Nothing in the Constitution compels us to listen to or view any unwanted communication, whatever its merit... We therefore categorically reject the argument that a vendor has a right under the Constitution or otherwise to send unwanted material into the home of another."
- Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Warren Burger, 1970
posted by pmurray63 at 5:29 PM on March 12, 2003
- Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Warren Burger, 1970
posted by pmurray63 at 5:29 PM on March 12, 2003
Regarding surveys, I am happy to do phone surveys but I learned an important lesson: ask BEFORE THE FIRST QUESTION how long the survey takes to complete. The surveys have a published "completion time" because they don't want their marketers taking too long to get answers from the 1% of people who stay on the line.
If you ask this ahead of time, you will be amazed at the responses.
I had one survey woman tell me the estimated completion time was 45 minutes. The best part? I told her there was no way on god's green acre that I was going to spend 45 minutes with her on the phone, she said "I'll talk fast!"
Here's a hint for anyone in the phone survey biz: very, very, very few people except for the mentally ill will stay on the phone with you for 45 minutes to complete a survey.
The limit for me is 5 minutes. 5 minutes is really too long, but I like surveys. I'm always interested in what cause/concern/product someone is willing to spend a bunch of money on to find out someone else's opinion.
And, if they go over 5 minutes, I tell them they have 30 seconds to wrap it up. If they don't , then I hang up. Usually, their survey is invalid if not completed. This means they wasted 5 minutes with me and will not get credit for a completed survey. That will teach them to be honest to the next guy who asks how long this will take.
I honestly don't see how you could be a telemarketer and have any respect for yourself as a person. It could always come to pass that I might have to take that job some time, but if I do, I won't mention it to a soul I know, and I will beg for forgiveness every night.
If you have any other employment opportunities available to you, then you are a Bad Person (tm) to be a telemarketer, and that is that. My opinion of course.
posted by Ynoxas at 5:48 PM on March 12, 2003
If you ask this ahead of time, you will be amazed at the responses.
I had one survey woman tell me the estimated completion time was 45 minutes. The best part? I told her there was no way on god's green acre that I was going to spend 45 minutes with her on the phone, she said "I'll talk fast!"
Here's a hint for anyone in the phone survey biz: very, very, very few people except for the mentally ill will stay on the phone with you for 45 minutes to complete a survey.
The limit for me is 5 minutes. 5 minutes is really too long, but I like surveys. I'm always interested in what cause/concern/product someone is willing to spend a bunch of money on to find out someone else's opinion.
And, if they go over 5 minutes, I tell them they have 30 seconds to wrap it up. If they don't , then I hang up. Usually, their survey is invalid if not completed. This means they wasted 5 minutes with me and will not get credit for a completed survey. That will teach them to be honest to the next guy who asks how long this will take.
I honestly don't see how you could be a telemarketer and have any respect for yourself as a person. It could always come to pass that I might have to take that job some time, but if I do, I won't mention it to a soul I know, and I will beg for forgiveness every night.
If you have any other employment opportunities available to you, then you are a Bad Person (tm) to be a telemarketer, and that is that. My opinion of course.
posted by Ynoxas at 5:48 PM on March 12, 2003
Here's a hint for anyone in the phone survey biz: very, very, very few people except for the mentally ill will stay on the phone with you for 45 minutes to complete a survey.
You'd be surprised. Do you recall what the topic of the survey was that you completed? I ask because, you're right, cooperation does drop past about ten or fifteen minutes. Anything that long probably (hopefully) had a compelling reason.
There's a lot of research out there where telephone research is an incredibly important component, because of the anonymity it offers. Also, there's a lot of instances where it's impossible to know exactly how long a survey will take, because portions of the survey may depend on your answers.
Generally speaking, survey researchers are extremely aware that they're imposing on people, and wish to minimize that imposition as much as possible, either by keeping the interview as short as possible, or by making themselves as flexible to your schedule as possible.
posted by claxton6 at 6:20 PM on March 12, 2003
You'd be surprised. Do you recall what the topic of the survey was that you completed? I ask because, you're right, cooperation does drop past about ten or fifteen minutes. Anything that long probably (hopefully) had a compelling reason.
There's a lot of research out there where telephone research is an incredibly important component, because of the anonymity it offers. Also, there's a lot of instances where it's impossible to know exactly how long a survey will take, because portions of the survey may depend on your answers.
Generally speaking, survey researchers are extremely aware that they're imposing on people, and wish to minimize that imposition as much as possible, either by keeping the interview as short as possible, or by making themselves as flexible to your schedule as possible.
posted by claxton6 at 6:20 PM on March 12, 2003
I don't think there's any reason to be rude to the telemarketer. In this economy, you have to pay the bills somehow.
When I answer the phone and hear that click, or asking for a "Mr. Walker," I say "Please take me off your calling list." They comply, I hang up, and go about my business.
posted by gramcracker at 6:22 PM on March 12, 2003
When I answer the phone and hear that click, or asking for a "Mr. Walker," I say "Please take me off your calling list." They comply, I hang up, and go about my business.
posted by gramcracker at 6:22 PM on March 12, 2003
If you're looking to throw telemarketers a loop without being rude to them, try this (it worked a couple of times for me):
Them: "Hello. Is Mr. Shepherd there?"
Me: "Did you want (Dad's name) Shepherd?"
Them: "Yes."
Me: "Sorry, he isn't here right now. Can I take a message?"
Them: {Big pause} "Uh... no... we'll just call back later..."
Me: "Would you like a better time to call?"
Them: {More pausing!} "No, that's alright, thank you."
Me: "Bye then".
Heh, I guess they don't expect to be treated like they were personal friends to someone or something... Probably the self-loathing. I don't bother asking them to put me on a do not call list as I get, at most, about 1 or 2 telemarketing type calls a month. Guess that's a benefit of living in the middle of nowhere on an exchange that's been 1/4 full for the past 30 years...
posted by shepd at 9:50 PM on March 12, 2003
Them: "Hello. Is Mr. Shepherd there?"
Me: "Did you want (Dad's name) Shepherd?"
Them: "Yes."
Me: "Sorry, he isn't here right now. Can I take a message?"
Them: {Big pause} "Uh... no... we'll just call back later..."
Me: "Would you like a better time to call?"
Them: {More pausing!} "No, that's alright, thank you."
Me: "Bye then".
Heh, I guess they don't expect to be treated like they were personal friends to someone or something... Probably the self-loathing. I don't bother asking them to put me on a do not call list as I get, at most, about 1 or 2 telemarketing type calls a month. Guess that's a benefit of living in the middle of nowhere on an exchange that's been 1/4 full for the past 30 years...
posted by shepd at 9:50 PM on March 12, 2003
Cerebus: the Pennsylvania opt-out no-call list has been working well, too. Implemented 11/02. Very popular: the first couple days the website was open for opt-out's it got friendly-fire DDoSed. I still get the occasional call from politicians and 'charities' (who are exempt), but that's pretty much it. 'Charities' is in quotes, because there are some 'charities', most notoriously police and fire benevolent societies, which are basically scams, the telemarketer gets virtually all the take, and the police association only a tiny sliver.
claxton6: I'd wonder about sample bias in a 45 minute survey. I wonder if you'd get a sample of people willing to take it similar to people who call in to C-Span's Washington Journal: retired, opinionated, and wanting everyone else to know their opinion.
posted by Slithy_Tove at 11:58 PM on March 12, 2003
claxton6: I'd wonder about sample bias in a 45 minute survey. I wonder if you'd get a sample of people willing to take it similar to people who call in to C-Span's Washington Journal: retired, opinionated, and wanting everyone else to know their opinion.
posted by Slithy_Tove at 11:58 PM on March 12, 2003
claxton6: I'd wonder about sample bias in a 45 minute survey.
The two surveys that I'm familiar with had very specific populations, which pretty much excluded the group you're talking about. But you're right. I imagine that the really long surveys have a more sophisticated sampling strategy to alleviate that.
posted by claxton6 at 7:59 AM on March 13, 2003
The two surveys that I'm familiar with had very specific populations, which pretty much excluded the group you're talking about. But you're right. I imagine that the really long surveys have a more sophisticated sampling strategy to alleviate that.
posted by claxton6 at 7:59 AM on March 13, 2003
what the? America has something neat that Australia doesn't? that can't be right.
posted by kv at 7:31 PM on March 13, 2003
posted by kv at 7:31 PM on March 13, 2003
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That depends if you pay for your own phone or not.
If it is your own private property, you have the right to control its usage.
If the phone is a public phone (for example, a payphone) then you have no right to control it's usage.
Therefore, the bill should allow telemarketers to phone public phones until they are blue in the face.
This isn't any different from banning protesters from your front lawn. Private property == no first amendment rights.
posted by shepd at 12:11 PM on March 12, 2003