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July 24, 2003 8:21 PM Subscribe
Tom DeLay off to derail Bush's road map to peace. Calls proposed Palestinian state a, "a sovereign state of terrorists." With even Arial Sharon supporting the Road Map will the bigger challenges come from the fundamentalist infested GOP itself? [more]
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble
Actually, I don't think his idea sounds that bad: build up the Palestinian economy before creating a state.
What's so bad about that? It sounds like a way to help ensure the success of the Palestinians, which would go a long way toward stability in the region.
posted by rocketman at 8:50 PM on July 24, 2003
What's so bad about that? It sounds like a way to help ensure the success of the Palestinians, which would go a long way toward stability in the region.
posted by rocketman at 8:50 PM on July 24, 2003
While that might be sensible, Rocketman -- and it may very well be, for all I know -- Delay and his cronies are certainly not in this effort with good faith. The Christian Zionists are trying to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state at all costs, because they believe it will interfere with the second coming of Christ. Not exactly your standard geopolitical goals, if you know what I mean. He's a nut, pure and simple.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:04 PM on July 24, 2003
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:04 PM on July 24, 2003
oops.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 9:05 PM on July 24, 2003
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 9:05 PM on July 24, 2003
The Christian Zionists are trying to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state at all costs, because they believe it will interfere with the second coming of Christ.
Hmm. I think it'd hasten armageddon... there's still a bunch of stuff that's supposed to go down, like all the nations of the earth gathering together to fight Israel and Christ touching down on the Mount of Olives to help repel a threatening army, if I recall correctly (which I may not).... and that's going to require an enemy.
That aside, of course, people like this completely fail to realize that the God they believe in would be more interested in them being better people than manipulating geopolitical events for him.
posted by weston at 9:11 PM on July 24, 2003
Hmm. I think it'd hasten armageddon... there's still a bunch of stuff that's supposed to go down, like all the nations of the earth gathering together to fight Israel and Christ touching down on the Mount of Olives to help repel a threatening army, if I recall correctly (which I may not).... and that's going to require an enemy.
That aside, of course, people like this completely fail to realize that the God they believe in would be more interested in them being better people than manipulating geopolitical events for him.
posted by weston at 9:11 PM on July 24, 2003
(Not to mention everyone having to take a whole shitload of Psilocybin mushies first... that Book of Revelations sure is a laff riot!)
posted by Jimbob at 9:16 PM on July 24, 2003
posted by Jimbob at 9:16 PM on July 24, 2003
I still say we leave, then nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
posted by black8 at 9:19 PM on July 24, 2003
posted by black8 at 9:19 PM on July 24, 2003
"...the God they believe in would be more interested in them being better people than manipulating geopolitical events..."
Yeah, that whole smiting thing wears thin after a while.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:26 PM on July 24, 2003
Yeah, that whole smiting thing wears thin after a while.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:26 PM on July 24, 2003
y'all better drink up, cuz the comet'll be here directly.
posted by quonsar at 9:46 PM on July 24, 2003
posted by quonsar at 9:46 PM on July 24, 2003
Actually, I don't think his idea sounds that bad: build up the Palestinian economy before creating a state.
What's so bad about that? It sounds like a way to help ensure the success of the Palestinians, which would go a long way toward stability in the region.
That was my first thought as well. The reason it sounds like a good idea is that it completely avoids dealing with the central issue to the Palestinians: the settlements. The whole situation is so much simpler if you pretend the settlements don't exist.
posted by electro at 10:39 PM on July 24, 2003
does tom delay (or anyone who even vaguely supports him and his ilk) really believe he and his fat suv driving pals really have place - in the post-armageddon/rapture world/heaven?
i'm curious how anyone who knows a g*dd*mn thing about tom delay and his extremist agenda can be a part of the republican party ....
posted by specialk420 at 11:07 PM on July 24, 2003
i'm curious how anyone who knows a g*dd*mn thing about tom delay and his extremist agenda can be a part of the republican party ....
posted by specialk420 at 11:07 PM on July 24, 2003
speaking of extremists.... it looks like there are extremists in the white house who are also breaking federal law - im sure the boys up in the federal pen in pennsylvania will be happy to talk to whomever ends up taking the rap for this who is "bring em on" going to blame this time?... about god while they lie sweltering in their federal prison bunk for 5 years.
posted by specialk420 at 11:17 PM on July 24, 2003
posted by specialk420 at 11:17 PM on July 24, 2003
(Not to mention everyone having to take a whole shitload of Psilocybin mushies first... that Book of Revelations sure is a laff riot!)
Mmmm... Psilocybin...
posted by delmoi at 12:08 AM on July 25, 2003
Mmmm... Psilocybin...
posted by delmoi at 12:08 AM on July 25, 2003
Move your mouse wheel while looking at delmoi's last post. Freaky!
On point: If weston is right, and the prophecy in question requires the nations of the Earth to align against Israel, then this would require the fundamentalist geopoliticians to play a very fine line between supporting Israel enough for it to stick around, and enraging its enemies enough to make them want to destroy it, until all are ready to do so together. Food for thought.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:27 AM on July 25, 2003
On point: If weston is right, and the prophecy in question requires the nations of the Earth to align against Israel, then this would require the fundamentalist geopoliticians to play a very fine line between supporting Israel enough for it to stick around, and enraging its enemies enough to make them want to destroy it, until all are ready to do so together. Food for thought.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:27 AM on July 25, 2003
On pointless: of course, keep in mind that "the earth" with respect to "all the nations of..." could very easily mean "the known world at the time of the old testament"; roughly the land between Egypt and Persia south of the Black and Caspian, in which case this particular prophecy was most recently met in 1947. You could also take the "alignment against Israel" to be united internation action against Israel, like, say, the dozens of UN resolutions against the occupation. Given the shroom effect, though, it could also mean that Xerces and Ramses will rise from the dead and have a celebrity cagematch in downtown Tel Aviv (which definitely has better pay-per-view possibilities).
I guess my point is that attempting to interpret, verify, shepherd, or even simply stay out of the way of prophecy you already dogmatically believe in is silly.
I find myself agreeing with skallas, which is sort of scary, given that that essentially means that I'm personally willing to torpedo the present attempt at Palestinian peace in hopes of getting rid of Bush, on the theory that two more years of intifada are a less pressing security threat to the world at large than six more of a Cheney/Wolfowitz foreign policy connected to an Ashcroft domestic agenda.
posted by Vetinari at 1:53 AM on July 25, 2003
I guess my point is that attempting to interpret, verify, shepherd, or even simply stay out of the way of prophecy you already dogmatically believe in is silly.
I find myself agreeing with skallas, which is sort of scary, given that that essentially means that I'm personally willing to torpedo the present attempt at Palestinian peace in hopes of getting rid of Bush, on the theory that two more years of intifada are a less pressing security threat to the world at large than six more of a Cheney/Wolfowitz foreign policy connected to an Ashcroft domestic agenda.
posted by Vetinari at 1:53 AM on July 25, 2003
The policy being advocated by De Lay is an old tactic that has being tried before by the Conservative and Unionist party. Between 1886 and 1905 the Conservatives actively tried to scotch any attempts to implement irish home rule, their dictum was to 'Kill home rule with kindness'. The policy advocated the redistribution of land, allowing the disenfranchised peasant farmer to purchase the land, replacing landlordism with tenant ownership. It appears that De Lay is willing to try any tactic however old or ultimately unsuccessful in an attempt to stave off the establishment of a viable palestinian state.
posted by johnnyboy at 4:46 AM on July 25, 2003
posted by johnnyboy at 4:46 AM on July 25, 2003
I guess the "keep it up DeLay" line is more like saying "keep this up and bad things will happen, dummy" as opposed to "keep this up so the roadmap will collapse thus getting Bush out of office for my own selfish reasons."
I wasn't accusing you of taking a selfish tack on this; I was accusing myself of doing so. Maybe because I see in both cases (I/P and the United States) that the greater good is being neglected due to the short-sighted viewpoints of people in power with the tacit approval of the involved populations. Violence in Israel has been a fact of life for fifty-six years; it ebbs, it flows, but it doesn't go away, largely because its own political apparatus (on both sides of the conflict) isn't interested in it going away. Unilateral buckaroo foreign policy by stunted oilmen with a dangerously simplistic worldview, on the other hand, is a relatively new feature of the American political landscape.
posted by Vetinari at 6:40 AM on July 25, 2003
I wasn't accusing you of taking a selfish tack on this; I was accusing myself of doing so. Maybe because I see in both cases (I/P and the United States) that the greater good is being neglected due to the short-sighted viewpoints of people in power with the tacit approval of the involved populations. Violence in Israel has been a fact of life for fifty-six years; it ebbs, it flows, but it doesn't go away, largely because its own political apparatus (on both sides of the conflict) isn't interested in it going away. Unilateral buckaroo foreign policy by stunted oilmen with a dangerously simplistic worldview, on the other hand, is a relatively new feature of the American political landscape.
posted by Vetinari at 6:40 AM on July 25, 2003
Actually, I don't think his idea sounds that bad: build up the Palestinian economy before creating a state.
I agree that industrial modernization is key to the creation of a Palestinian state, unfortunately current Israeli policy is aimed at choking off what little development was taking place post-Oslo, thus making any sort of modernization impossible.
Also, delaying the Palestinian state just gives Israel more time to create more illegal settlements on Palestinian land (the construction of which is ongoing as we speak) in order to have more bargaining power in the future. And as a Christian Zionist, DeLay believes that Israel is in fact entitled to all the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, including the West Bank and Gaza, the future Palestine. From what I know about those folks, and DeLay in particular, I don't think he's sincere at all.
posted by Ty Webb at 9:01 AM on July 25, 2003
I agree that industrial modernization is key to the creation of a Palestinian state, unfortunately current Israeli policy is aimed at choking off what little development was taking place post-Oslo, thus making any sort of modernization impossible.
Also, delaying the Palestinian state just gives Israel more time to create more illegal settlements on Palestinian land (the construction of which is ongoing as we speak) in order to have more bargaining power in the future. And as a Christian Zionist, DeLay believes that Israel is in fact entitled to all the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, including the West Bank and Gaza, the future Palestine. From what I know about those folks, and DeLay in particular, I don't think he's sincere at all.
posted by Ty Webb at 9:01 AM on July 25, 2003
What I would like to know is where exactly in the bible the precise borders are given for the Jewish state. I have looked, and can't find them. Perhaps people how know it better than I can show me where it says the borders should be, it seems to me that all it says is that the Jews will return to Israel, and if you look back in the old Testament, it's not clear how big Israel was. Can someone help?
posted by cell divide at 9:54 AM on July 25, 2003
posted by cell divide at 9:54 AM on July 25, 2003
And another.
Either of which are ample justification for everything west of the Jordan river, if you're of that particular bent.
posted by Cerebus at 10:16 AM on July 25, 2003
Either of which are ample justification for everything west of the Jordan river, if you're of that particular bent.
posted by Cerebus at 10:16 AM on July 25, 2003
The creep's office called this morning, trying to get commitment from my boss for some fund raising. He would not have anything to do with these people, of course. It still felt sort of icky. Talk of coincidences.
posted by adzuki at 11:18 AM on July 25, 2003
posted by adzuki at 11:18 AM on July 25, 2003
The creep's office called this morning, trying to get commitment from my boss for some fund raising.
That's funny, DeLay's people called the law office where I work a few months ago, saying that Mr. DeLay wanted to give one of our attorneys some sort of "freedom award." Turns out it was just a very dishonest attempt at fund raising. Pathetic.
posted by Ty Webb at 11:28 AM on July 25, 2003
That's funny, DeLay's people called the law office where I work a few months ago, saying that Mr. DeLay wanted to give one of our attorneys some sort of "freedom award." Turns out it was just a very dishonest attempt at fund raising. Pathetic.
posted by Ty Webb at 11:28 AM on July 25, 2003
Did anyone else grow up in a place where this sort of dispenstionalist thinking really is the norm? It's less than cool, if you're curious. The problem isn't DeLay, it's that he actually has a viable constituency of people who believe that Revelations is imminently more relevant to policymaking than the constitution and that public debate of the matter is tantamount to blasphemy.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:08 PM on July 25, 2003
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:08 PM on July 25, 2003
Ignatius: I have lived in such a place and in some ways actually believed some of the stuff DeLay and his ilk proffer as truth.
If you'd like to see some similar stuff drive thru SE Missouri. The area around Cape Giradeau (sp) concerns me whenever I have to drive through it.
That said, X-ian Fundamentalist Republicans didn't seem to cause many enduring problems during the Reagan regime. It was nice to see Bush Sr move away from that population, even if it was only slightly.
posted by infowar at 12:32 PM on July 25, 2003
If you'd like to see some similar stuff drive thru SE Missouri. The area around Cape Giradeau (sp) concerns me whenever I have to drive through it.
That said, X-ian Fundamentalist Republicans didn't seem to cause many enduring problems during the Reagan regime. It was nice to see Bush Sr move away from that population, even if it was only slightly.
posted by infowar at 12:32 PM on July 25, 2003
Did anyone else grow up in a place where this sort of dispenstionalist thinking really is the norm? It's less than cool, if you're curious.
I did, and I know. The funny/sad thing is that many Christians don't really give a damn about any sort of justice for the Jews, and support the state of Israel only to the extent that it's creation is a pre-condition for the return of Jesus, Armageddon, and all the good and righteous people being taken up to Heaven.
The book Anxious for Armageddon explores this. It's a good read for anybody interested in the subject.
posted by Ty Webb at 1:17 PM on July 25, 2003
I did, and I know. The funny/sad thing is that many Christians don't really give a damn about any sort of justice for the Jews, and support the state of Israel only to the extent that it's creation is a pre-condition for the return of Jesus, Armageddon, and all the good and righteous people being taken up to Heaven.
The book Anxious for Armageddon explores this. It's a good read for anybody interested in the subject.
posted by Ty Webb at 1:17 PM on July 25, 2003
If you'd like to see some similar stuff drive thru SE Missouri. The area around Cape Giradeau (sp) concerns me whenever I have to drive through it.
SW Missouri for me. Same shit, different quadrant. It was ubiquitous among my friends growing up that the only books their parents had read in years and years were the Left Behind series.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:46 PM on July 25, 2003
SW Missouri for me. Same shit, different quadrant. It was ubiquitous among my friends growing up that the only books their parents had read in years and years were the Left Behind series.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:46 PM on July 25, 2003
Is DeLay bringing a red heifer with him? Ever since Reagan I've been expecting these rapturemonkeys to immanentize the eschaton any day now.
posted by xian at 4:02 PM on July 25, 2003
posted by xian at 4:02 PM on July 25, 2003
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posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:36 PM on July 24, 2003