What's American About American Poetry?
December 14, 2003 12:21 PM Subscribe
Doty's summary is fairly accurate. In reading the responses, whether it's those of the "ethnic" poets (Marilyn Chin, Michael Harper), "mainstream" poets (Marilyn Hacker, W. S. Merwin), or "experimental" poets (Ann Lauterbach, Ron Silliman), most raise the same issues: self-identity, connecting oneself to the history of the past and the culture of the present, and one's own place in literature. Me me me. Mix, stir, let simmer, and publish.
Doty was being charitable when he wrote, "Perhaps the signal characteristic of American poetry is our desire to put the self at the center." He could more succinctly label it naval-gazing.
(Note: to be fair, some of the responses were in interview form so the focus on the self is relevant there.)
posted by DaShiv at 12:55 PM on December 14, 2003
Doty was being charitable when he wrote, "Perhaps the signal characteristic of American poetry is our desire to put the self at the center." He could more succinctly label it naval-gazing.
(Note: to be fair, some of the responses were in interview form so the focus on the self is relevant there.)
posted by DaShiv at 12:55 PM on December 14, 2003
Well, 'to be fair,' I think it's hardly accurate to suggest that most poetry today is 'navel-gazing' simply because it focuses on the self. Frank Bidart's ideas about the self in poetry -- that "another major innovation happened with confessional poetry, both through Allen Ginsberg in Kaddish and Robert Lowell in Life Studies, and this had to do with taking seriously and incorporating into the very texture of poetry the psychoanalytic model of the search for meaning. And that psychoanalytic model was taken deeply seriously by Americans in a way that the English have always somewhat resisted" -- seems more accurate to me than a blanket judgment of poetry based in the self as 'navel-gazing.'
There are a lot of great American poets who write about the self, not about "me me me." Wordsworth did it, Dickinson did it, Lowell did it. Obviously there is bad poetry today but there is also lots of great poetry; the argument that American poetry has taken the confessional mode seriously is interesting and shouldn't just be dismissed.
posted by josh at 2:08 PM on December 14, 2003
There are a lot of great American poets who write about the self, not about "me me me." Wordsworth did it, Dickinson did it, Lowell did it. Obviously there is bad poetry today but there is also lots of great poetry; the argument that American poetry has taken the confessional mode seriously is interesting and shouldn't just be dismissed.
posted by josh at 2:08 PM on December 14, 2003
the argument that American poetry has taken the confessional mode seriously is interesting and shouldn't just be dismissed.
Well-said. I'd add that an awful lot of "poetry about the self" can also be seen as an expansive poetry about the cosmos - if you can get over the hubris of daring to honor selfish experience. Folks like Whitman, Gary Snyder and Michael McClure are hardly navel-gazing when they use details of immediate consciousness as a bridge to marvel at the larger universe; the impulse is clearly outward rather than inward.
And while we're being uncharitable, :) I wonder what other folks make of this backhanded slap at the British tradition from Eleanor Wilner:
Nor is there a Big Daddy poet who stands like a colossus over the scene and to whose authority our writers appeal.
posted by mediareport at 2:44 PM on December 14, 2003
Well-said. I'd add that an awful lot of "poetry about the self" can also be seen as an expansive poetry about the cosmos - if you can get over the hubris of daring to honor selfish experience. Folks like Whitman, Gary Snyder and Michael McClure are hardly navel-gazing when they use details of immediate consciousness as a bridge to marvel at the larger universe; the impulse is clearly outward rather than inward.
And while we're being uncharitable, :) I wonder what other folks make of this backhanded slap at the British tradition from Eleanor Wilner:
Nor is there a Big Daddy poet who stands like a colossus over the scene and to whose authority our writers appeal.
posted by mediareport at 2:44 PM on December 14, 2003
I think it's absolutely fair to blame the confessional mode for much of the naval-gazing going on in contemporary American poetry, just as it's fair to blame the Romantics for introducing much Fruitiness (TM) into poetry and the High Modernists for overhistoricizing/politicizing poetry. But that's probably more reflective of my own tastes than of literature at large. :)
The self as a model of inquiry dates back long before even Descartes in philosophy, and I wish that contemporary American poets would drop that spiel already. The confessionalist mode is already old and worn, hardly qualifying as news that stays news. And although I agree with mediareport that many poets have successfully turned that personal trajectory outward to the world at large, most of the delineated anectodal crap that gets published these days hardly comes close to hitting that. It makes me wonder what they're aiming for to begin with.
Not that I'm terribly happy with the Ann Tardos/Robert Grenier/etc school of attacking linguistic intelligibility either. But I digress. :)
posted by DaShiv at 3:46 PM on December 14, 2003
The self as a model of inquiry dates back long before even Descartes in philosophy, and I wish that contemporary American poets would drop that spiel already. The confessionalist mode is already old and worn, hardly qualifying as news that stays news. And although I agree with mediareport that many poets have successfully turned that personal trajectory outward to the world at large, most of the delineated anectodal crap that gets published these days hardly comes close to hitting that. It makes me wonder what they're aiming for to begin with.
Not that I'm terribly happy with the Ann Tardos/Robert Grenier/etc school of attacking linguistic intelligibility either. But I digress. :)
posted by DaShiv at 3:46 PM on December 14, 2003
mefi should stick to bullshit -- so off on everything else.
posted by Satapher at 3:49 PM on December 14, 2003
posted by Satapher at 3:49 PM on December 14, 2003
mefi should stick to bullshit -- so off on everything else.
Newsflash for user 1354: mefi is made up of varied individuals. Come on, Satapher, shit or get off the pot. If you have a contribution or correction, make it already.
posted by mediareport at 3:55 PM on December 14, 2003
Newsflash for user 1354: mefi is made up of varied individuals. Come on, Satapher, shit or get off the pot. If you have a contribution or correction, make it already.
posted by mediareport at 3:55 PM on December 14, 2003
Folks like Whitman, Gary Snyder and Michael McClure are hardly navel-gazing when they use details of immediate consciousness as a bridge to marvel at the larger universe; the impulse is clearly outward rather than inward.
Well said, mediareport. The trope in American poetry may have started with Whitman, who was arguably the first American American poet, offering up his epic, "Song of Myself." But surely this, the third line of that poem, is crucial:
I celebrate myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.
Whitman sang himself as an example of Everything Else, i.e., to map the Universe, might as well start with one's own body, eros, and mind.
posted by digaman at 6:24 PM on December 14, 2003
Well said, mediareport. The trope in American poetry may have started with Whitman, who was arguably the first American American poet, offering up his epic, "Song of Myself." But surely this, the third line of that poem, is crucial:
I celebrate myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.
Whitman sang himself as an example of Everything Else, i.e., to map the Universe, might as well start with one's own body, eros, and mind.
posted by digaman at 6:24 PM on December 14, 2003
ask Ti Jean
You could have just said Kerouac, you know. It was easy enough to Google up, anyway. Do you really think Jack Kerouac counts as "a Big Daddy poet who stands like a colossus over the scene and to whose authority our writers appeal"? I sure don't, but I'm eagerly awaiting your take.
If any of the Beats has that kind of stature in poetry, seems to me it'd be Ginsberg. Kerouac has always seemed to me marginal in the world of poetry.
posted by mediareport at 6:59 PM on December 14, 2003
You could have just said Kerouac, you know. It was easy enough to Google up, anyway. Do you really think Jack Kerouac counts as "a Big Daddy poet who stands like a colossus over the scene and to whose authority our writers appeal"? I sure don't, but I'm eagerly awaiting your take.
If any of the Beats has that kind of stature in poetry, seems to me it'd be Ginsberg. Kerouac has always seemed to me marginal in the world of poetry.
posted by mediareport at 6:59 PM on December 14, 2003
Gregory Corso
Must respectfully disagree on this one. Living in the SF Bay Area polarizes one's view of the Beats due to overexposure, and I'm afraid I fall on the uncharitable side of the spectrum.
Out of curiosity though, which Corso poems do you find to be the best examples of writing about the self in a non-myopic and self-indulgent way? Maybe I just haven't been reading the right ones.
posted by DaShiv at 7:30 PM on December 14, 2003
Must respectfully disagree on this one. Living in the SF Bay Area polarizes one's view of the Beats due to overexposure, and I'm afraid I fall on the uncharitable side of the spectrum.
Out of curiosity though, which Corso poems do you find to be the best examples of writing about the self in a non-myopic and self-indulgent way? Maybe I just haven't been reading the right ones.
posted by DaShiv at 7:30 PM on December 14, 2003
"You guys call yourselves poets, write in short little lines, I'm a poet but I write lines paragraphs and many pages long" - Kerouac
"My own poetry has always been modeled on Kerouac's practice of tracing his mind's thoughts and sounds directly on the page" - Ginsberg
"[Kerouac's] was the first poetry that spoke my own language" - Bob Dylan
"Its a perfect exposition of mind" - Chogyam Trungpa
"I was touched by Mexico City Blues and Whitman, the same influence at that time" - Gary Snyder
"I was illuminated, thrilled, deeply moved by seeing the natural unplanned growth of them, poem after poem, each with a life of its own... Kerouac was my mental model." - Michael McClure
"Jack had an extraordinary ear, that impeccable ear that could hear patterns and make patterns in the sounds and rhythms of the language as spoken... Its effect on my poetry? He gave an absolute measure of what the range of that kind of writing was" - Robert Creely
"Mr Kerouac is a superb poet, his poems are automatic, pure, brilliant, awesome, gentle" - Ginsberg
"Kerouac used verse as a vehicle for expressing fright or shock or information for all mankind on the planet" - Ginsberg
"[Kerouac's] Mexico City Blues inspired Philip Whalen to write Big Baby Buddha Golden 65 feet high." - Ginsberg
"Kerouac the author-catalyst of this American literary revolution? Not yet to be found in "establishment" anthologies!" - Ginsberg
posted by Satapher at 7:54 PM on December 14, 2003
"My own poetry has always been modeled on Kerouac's practice of tracing his mind's thoughts and sounds directly on the page" - Ginsberg
"[Kerouac's] was the first poetry that spoke my own language" - Bob Dylan
"Its a perfect exposition of mind" - Chogyam Trungpa
"I was touched by Mexico City Blues and Whitman, the same influence at that time" - Gary Snyder
"I was illuminated, thrilled, deeply moved by seeing the natural unplanned growth of them, poem after poem, each with a life of its own... Kerouac was my mental model." - Michael McClure
"Jack had an extraordinary ear, that impeccable ear that could hear patterns and make patterns in the sounds and rhythms of the language as spoken... Its effect on my poetry? He gave an absolute measure of what the range of that kind of writing was" - Robert Creely
"Mr Kerouac is a superb poet, his poems are automatic, pure, brilliant, awesome, gentle" - Ginsberg
"Kerouac used verse as a vehicle for expressing fright or shock or information for all mankind on the planet" - Ginsberg
"[Kerouac's] Mexico City Blues inspired Philip Whalen to write Big Baby Buddha Golden 65 feet high." - Ginsberg
"Kerouac the author-catalyst of this American literary revolution? Not yet to be found in "establishment" anthologies!" - Ginsberg
posted by Satapher at 7:54 PM on December 14, 2003
Were not Corso's velvet verse lost on you -- it would have shed its value long ago.
posted by Satapher at 7:59 PM on December 14, 2003
posted by Satapher at 7:59 PM on December 14, 2003
Whatever.
posted by mediareport at 8:24 PM on December 14, 2003
posted by mediareport at 8:24 PM on December 14, 2003
Satapher, a lot of things have been said of the Beats on all sides, but I'd like to hear their works speaking for themselves. Much of what I've read of Corso has been his anthologized stuff, but I've also ventured off the beaten path of Corso a bit (from having spent an entire semester-long class at Berkeley on the Beats) and I simply haven't be very taken with his work thus far. All writers produce a fair amount of dreck, however, and it's quite possible that I just haven't been exposed to the good stuff yet. I'd like to know which of Corso's works causes you to hold him in such high regard.
posted by DaShiv at 8:54 PM on December 14, 2003
posted by DaShiv at 8:54 PM on December 14, 2003
I figured as much
You post lame insults and complain when you get "whatever" in response? Puh-lease. I would've thought someone with a user number like 1354 would've learned by now that adding to a thread is more fun than subtracting from it. Anyway, rest assured I was working on a reply to your last Kerouac post.
"I was illuminated, thrilled, deeply moved by seeing the natural unplanned growth of them, poem after poem, each with a life of its own... Kerouac was my mental model." - Michael McClure
Ouch.
Okay, calling Kerouac "marginal" to American poetry was silly and reflected my personal taste more than any informed understanding of the history. His poetry never really grabbed me. I'm also the first to admit my poetry self-education is spotty, so thanks for the quotes. It's great to see you're now at least bothering to make a case for your positions.
In my own defense, I didn't deny the impact of Kerouac's stream-of-consciousness style. I've loved it for a long time and appreciate the way it blew traditional "literature" out of the water. I just don't think he fits the "colossus" category you put him in - someone who straddles American poetry and whose influence is essential to most American poets today. Hell, I wouldn't even put Ginsberg in that category, and he's one of my absolute faves. The point is that I agree with Wilner: the Beats are just one strain among many in U.S. poetry. And while Kerouac is more important than I initially gave him credit for, it's at least debatable whether he's a towering figure over the entire landscape.
There. Your turn.
posted by mediareport at 9:01 PM on December 14, 2003
You post lame insults and complain when you get "whatever" in response? Puh-lease. I would've thought someone with a user number like 1354 would've learned by now that adding to a thread is more fun than subtracting from it. Anyway, rest assured I was working on a reply to your last Kerouac post.
"I was illuminated, thrilled, deeply moved by seeing the natural unplanned growth of them, poem after poem, each with a life of its own... Kerouac was my mental model." - Michael McClure
Ouch.
Okay, calling Kerouac "marginal" to American poetry was silly and reflected my personal taste more than any informed understanding of the history. His poetry never really grabbed me. I'm also the first to admit my poetry self-education is spotty, so thanks for the quotes. It's great to see you're now at least bothering to make a case for your positions.
In my own defense, I didn't deny the impact of Kerouac's stream-of-consciousness style. I've loved it for a long time and appreciate the way it blew traditional "literature" out of the water. I just don't think he fits the "colossus" category you put him in - someone who straddles American poetry and whose influence is essential to most American poets today. Hell, I wouldn't even put Ginsberg in that category, and he's one of my absolute faves. The point is that I agree with Wilner: the Beats are just one strain among many in U.S. poetry. And while Kerouac is more important than I initially gave him credit for, it's at least debatable whether he's a towering figure over the entire landscape.
There. Your turn.
posted by mediareport at 9:01 PM on December 14, 2003
One of my favorite Corso poems : (see also : Bomb)
Last night I drove a car
not knowing how to drive
not owning a car
I drove and knocked down
people I loved
...went 120 through one town.
I stopped at Hedgeville
and slept in the back seat
...excited about my new life.
"Corso is a great world-slinger, first naked sign of a poet, a scientific master of mad mouthfuls of language. He wants a surface hilarious with ellipses, jumps of the strangest phrasing picked off the streets of his mind like "mad children of soda caps""
"He gets pure abstract poetry, the inside sound of language alone"
"But what is he saying? Who cares? It's said!"
"He's got the angelic power of making autonomous poems, like god making brooks"
"Gregory Corso is an aphoristic poet, and a poet of ideas. What modern poets write with such terse clarity that their verses stick in the mind without effort?"
"He distills the essence of archetypal concepts, recycling them with humor to make them new, examining, contrasting and alchemizing common vernacular notions into mind-blowing insights"
"As a poetic craftsman, Corso is impeccable."
"Corso is a poet's poet, his verse pure velvet, close to John Keats for our time, exquisitely delicate in the manners of muse."
"He's extended the area of poetic experience further out than anyone I know"
"He's probably the greatest poet in America"
- Allen Ginsberg
"Gregory Corso is a poet. He has the rare calling of pure lyric gift"
"Poetry is made from flaws. A flawless poet is fit only to be a poet-laureate, officially dead and perfectly embalmed."
"Gregory is a gambler. He suffers reverses, like every man who takes chances. But his vitality and resilience always shine through, with a light that is more than human : the immortal light of his Muse"
- William Burroughs
"Most honest of poets, he shatters middle-class diction, and makes sidewalks talk of spirituality" - Douglas Oliver
I introduce these and previous quotes because none could phrase them any better.
posted by Satapher at 9:34 PM on December 14, 2003
Last night I drove a car
not knowing how to drive
not owning a car
I drove and knocked down
people I loved
...went 120 through one town.
I stopped at Hedgeville
and slept in the back seat
...excited about my new life.
"Corso is a great world-slinger, first naked sign of a poet, a scientific master of mad mouthfuls of language. He wants a surface hilarious with ellipses, jumps of the strangest phrasing picked off the streets of his mind like "mad children of soda caps""
"He gets pure abstract poetry, the inside sound of language alone"
"But what is he saying? Who cares? It's said!"
"He's got the angelic power of making autonomous poems, like god making brooks"
"Gregory Corso is an aphoristic poet, and a poet of ideas. What modern poets write with such terse clarity that their verses stick in the mind without effort?"
"He distills the essence of archetypal concepts, recycling them with humor to make them new, examining, contrasting and alchemizing common vernacular notions into mind-blowing insights"
"As a poetic craftsman, Corso is impeccable."
"Corso is a poet's poet, his verse pure velvet, close to John Keats for our time, exquisitely delicate in the manners of muse."
"He's extended the area of poetic experience further out than anyone I know"
"He's probably the greatest poet in America"
- Allen Ginsberg
"Gregory Corso is a poet. He has the rare calling of pure lyric gift"
"Poetry is made from flaws. A flawless poet is fit only to be a poet-laureate, officially dead and perfectly embalmed."
"Gregory is a gambler. He suffers reverses, like every man who takes chances. But his vitality and resilience always shine through, with a light that is more than human : the immortal light of his Muse"
- William Burroughs
"Most honest of poets, he shatters middle-class diction, and makes sidewalks talk of spirituality" - Douglas Oliver
I introduce these and previous quotes because none could phrase them any better.
posted by Satapher at 9:34 PM on December 14, 2003
I would've thought someone with a user number like 1354 would've learned by now that adding to a thread is more fun than subtracting from it.
*shrug* I am a lackluster Mefi member at best. As for subtracting -- my four word reply is as guilty as your single word detractor.
As far as Kerouac's looming influence, only time will tell. Furthermore, I am less than interested in any current contemporary poets or writers for that matter. It's all the better that these stranglers are without his influence, and in fact, it makes perfect sense.
Im not arguing with you. Its just my bag of tea. It aids my appreciation and understanding first -- and hopefully either reaches or introduces others to a literary scene that seems to be swept under the rug with typical misunderstandings and/or generalizations.
A towering figure eh?
"I read the words of a poet who died in the gutter." - Dylan
posted by Satapher at 9:52 PM on December 14, 2003
*shrug* I am a lackluster Mefi member at best. As for subtracting -- my four word reply is as guilty as your single word detractor.
As far as Kerouac's looming influence, only time will tell. Furthermore, I am less than interested in any current contemporary poets or writers for that matter. It's all the better that these stranglers are without his influence, and in fact, it makes perfect sense.
Im not arguing with you. Its just my bag of tea. It aids my appreciation and understanding first -- and hopefully either reaches or introduces others to a literary scene that seems to be swept under the rug with typical misunderstandings and/or generalizations.
A towering figure eh?
"I read the words of a poet who died in the gutter." - Dylan
posted by Satapher at 9:52 PM on December 14, 2003
"thats not writing, thats typing"
-the guy who rejected 'On the Road'
Corso is a slinger and wise to the ways of the world, (jail can do that) Satapher, no doubt jack was a great contributor but his poetry was not that good. He even admitted it. Plus, you quote people he knew. No doubt he was a genius but as far as poetic modes? limited. I'm surprised no one linked some good confessionalist sites or poets. hey, plath made the confession a work of art. This lament for the me me me is very old which is why i have a solution though it may be outmoded by now. Introspective confessionalist. To confess or pour over the soul and it's place in the universe is one thing, to come to some meaning and synthesis is another.
The self as a model of inquiry dates back long before even Descartes in philosophy, and I wish that contemporary American poets would drop that spiel already
i doubt that they will drop it. But a fundamental question is raised. How can inquiry be achieved without the self as a model? using something/one else? Ok, but then how does this relate to the self? And if the self is not the model, what should be?
Marianne Moore has some pretty neat answers.
posted by clavdivs at 8:15 AM on December 15, 2003
-the guy who rejected 'On the Road'
Corso is a slinger and wise to the ways of the world, (jail can do that) Satapher, no doubt jack was a great contributor but his poetry was not that good. He even admitted it. Plus, you quote people he knew. No doubt he was a genius but as far as poetic modes? limited. I'm surprised no one linked some good confessionalist sites or poets. hey, plath made the confession a work of art. This lament for the me me me is very old which is why i have a solution though it may be outmoded by now. Introspective confessionalist. To confess or pour over the soul and it's place in the universe is one thing, to come to some meaning and synthesis is another.
The self as a model of inquiry dates back long before even Descartes in philosophy, and I wish that contemporary American poets would drop that spiel already
i doubt that they will drop it. But a fundamental question is raised. How can inquiry be achieved without the self as a model? using something/one else? Ok, but then how does this relate to the self? And if the self is not the model, what should be?
Marianne Moore has some pretty neat answers.
posted by clavdivs at 8:15 AM on December 15, 2003
thats not writing, thats typing
What an amazing quote. Wasn't it from Time Magazine's review? Good job.
To confess or pour over the soul and it's place in the universe is one thing, to come to some meaning and synthesis is another.
I dont see the difference in either side of that comma fence.
posted by Satapher at 11:39 AM on December 15, 2003
What an amazing quote. Wasn't it from Time Magazine's review? Good job.
To confess or pour over the soul and it's place in the universe is one thing, to come to some meaning and synthesis is another.
I dont see the difference in either side of that comma fence.
posted by Satapher at 11:39 AM on December 15, 2003
I'm not wild about the nazel gazing debate...
but what about William Carlos Williams? No ideas but in things? Clamp your mind down upon an object?
Paterson is about his life but told through the story of a town... oh man, shivers up me spine just thinking about that book.
And I cant believe i missed this : "but as far as poetic modes? limited."
Limited is the amount of Kerouac's poetry you've actually read. Pick up Mexico City Blues.
As an artist, if you set out to discover your expression and/or keep one step behind or beyond your mind, you will be blessed; If you try and dictate your intentions from the pit of your forever corruptable and endlessly compromising mind, you will be lost.
posted by Satapher at 12:02 PM on December 15, 2003
but what about William Carlos Williams? No ideas but in things? Clamp your mind down upon an object?
Paterson is about his life but told through the story of a town... oh man, shivers up me spine just thinking about that book.
And I cant believe i missed this : "but as far as poetic modes? limited."
Limited is the amount of Kerouac's poetry you've actually read. Pick up Mexico City Blues.
As an artist, if you set out to discover your expression and/or keep one step behind or beyond your mind, you will be blessed; If you try and dictate your intentions from the pit of your forever corruptable and endlessly compromising mind, you will be lost.
posted by Satapher at 12:02 PM on December 15, 2003
thats not writing, thats typing
It certainly wasn't from the "person who rejected On the Road" But Truman Capote's response when asked what he thought of On the Road.
Hey instead of quoting reviews of the poetry, why not go to the primary source and post the poetry itself?
http://plagiarist.com/poetry/?aid=423
posted by GiantRobot at 12:14 PM on December 15, 2003
It certainly wasn't from the "person who rejected On the Road" But Truman Capote's response when asked what he thought of On the Road.
Hey instead of quoting reviews of the poetry, why not go to the primary source and post the poetry itself?
http://plagiarist.com/poetry/?aid=423
posted by GiantRobot at 12:14 PM on December 15, 2003
Im not sure 3 haikus help much. Again, check out Mexico City Blues. I was very lucky and even found a 1st edition copy!
posted by Satapher at 12:20 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by Satapher at 12:20 PM on December 15, 2003
But I should get married I should be good
How nice it'd be to come home to her
and sit by the fireplace and she in the kitchen
aproned young and lovely wanting my baby
and so happy about me she burns the roast beef
and comes crying to me and I get up from my big papa chair
saying Christmas teeth! Radiant brains! Apple deaf!
God what a husband I'd make! Yes, I should get married!
- Gregory Corso, Marriage
posted by eddydamascene at 12:36 PM on December 15, 2003
How nice it'd be to come home to her
and sit by the fireplace and she in the kitchen
aproned young and lovely wanting my baby
and so happy about me she burns the roast beef
and comes crying to me and I get up from my big papa chair
saying Christmas teeth! Radiant brains! Apple deaf!
God what a husband I'd make! Yes, I should get married!
- Gregory Corso, Marriage
posted by eddydamascene at 12:36 PM on December 15, 2003
it was the guy who rejected the book in some movie for which i rectify....hmmm, I thought it was in this book
I don't see the difference in either side of that comma fence.
Yeah, well...
Limited is the amount of Kerouac's poetry you've actually read. Pick up Mexico City Blues.
read it, not to impressed.
"The wheel of the quivering meat conception
Turns in the void expelling human beings,
Pigs, turtles, frogs, insects, nits
Mice, lice, lizards, rats, roan
Racinghorses, poxy bucolic pigtics,
Horrible unnameable lice of vultures
Murderous attacking dog-armies .....
Poor! I wish I was free
Of that slaving meat wheel
And safe in heaven dead "
-From 211th Chorus
murderous dog armies YEAH. It had cadence and soul but the images are to cartoonish.
As an artist, if you set out to discover your expression and/or keep one step behind or beyond your mind, you will be blessed; If you try and dictate your intentions from the pit of your forever corruptible and endlessly compromising mind, you will be lost.
if one is corrupted and compromises the mind, what need there be for discovery? and if discovery takes one upon the morass of intention, then what is left to discern?
heh.
posted by clavdivs at 8:32 PM on December 15, 2003
I don't see the difference in either side of that comma fence.
Yeah, well...
Limited is the amount of Kerouac's poetry you've actually read. Pick up Mexico City Blues.
read it, not to impressed.
"The wheel of the quivering meat conception
Turns in the void expelling human beings,
Pigs, turtles, frogs, insects, nits
Mice, lice, lizards, rats, roan
Racinghorses, poxy bucolic pigtics,
Horrible unnameable lice of vultures
Murderous attacking dog-armies .....
Poor! I wish I was free
Of that slaving meat wheel
And safe in heaven dead "
-From 211th Chorus
murderous dog armies YEAH. It had cadence and soul but the images are to cartoonish.
As an artist, if you set out to discover your expression and/or keep one step behind or beyond your mind, you will be blessed; If you try and dictate your intentions from the pit of your forever corruptible and endlessly compromising mind, you will be lost.
if one is corrupted and compromises the mind, what need there be for discovery? and if discovery takes one upon the morass of intention, then what is left to discern?
heh.
posted by clavdivs at 8:32 PM on December 15, 2003
whole fuckin post is a train wreck, what do you expect? Cogency from a cobbled together shit poetry post? You have some answers, please by all means.
posted by clavdivs at 8:39 PM on December 16, 2003
posted by clavdivs at 8:39 PM on December 16, 2003
Aw, clavdivs, some of the shit you just aimed at Satapher got on my shirt. I'll send the cleaning bill.
Btw, I retract whatever I said about not liking Kerouac's poetry very much. I've been going through "Pomes All Sizes" at work over the last few days and laughing at how I could have possibly not loved this stuff the first time I tried it. Wonderful stuff, as much fun to read as Ginsberg.
More poetry threads, please.
posted by mediareport at 7:26 PM on December 17, 2003
Btw, I retract whatever I said about not liking Kerouac's poetry very much. I've been going through "Pomes All Sizes" at work over the last few days and laughing at how I could have possibly not loved this stuff the first time I tried it. Wonderful stuff, as much fun to read as Ginsberg.
More poetry threads, please.
posted by mediareport at 7:26 PM on December 17, 2003
hell man, I love the stuff to, though I do not think it great poetry. I'm not sure what your thesis with this post is, is it that confessionalist modes are typically american?
good to see you back posting.
I believe the real aim of these articles is younger poets and fatal didactic confessionalist poetry that just grates almost all of our nerves.
posted by clavdivs at 7:57 PM on December 17, 2003
good to see you back posting.
I believe the real aim of these articles is younger poets and fatal didactic confessionalist poetry that just grates almost all of our nerves.
posted by clavdivs at 7:57 PM on December 17, 2003
I'm not sure what your thesis with this post is
Uh-oh. We're supposed to have theses before posting now? Um, er...an English prof pal said I'd probably like reading Mark Doty, so I Googled him up and rediscovered an interesting collection of modern poets' reactions to a question about the nature of "American poetry." The responses raised thoughtful issues which led me to think, "Gosh, MeFi poetry heads might enjoy this."
Is that ok for a thesis?
I believe the real aim of these articles is younger poets and fatal didactic confessionalist poetry that just grates almost all of our nerves.
So all of the poets listed write fatal grating didactic confessionalist poetry? I swear I never knew. Spotty self-education and all that.
More poetry threads, please.
posted by mediareport at 8:57 PM on December 17, 2003
Uh-oh. We're supposed to have theses before posting now? Um, er...an English prof pal said I'd probably like reading Mark Doty, so I Googled him up and rediscovered an interesting collection of modern poets' reactions to a question about the nature of "American poetry." The responses raised thoughtful issues which led me to think, "Gosh, MeFi poetry heads might enjoy this."
Is that ok for a thesis?
I believe the real aim of these articles is younger poets and fatal didactic confessionalist poetry that just grates almost all of our nerves.
So all of the poets listed write fatal grating didactic confessionalist poetry? I swear I never knew. Spotty self-education and all that.
More poetry threads, please.
posted by mediareport at 8:57 PM on December 17, 2003
young as still in school. And does one get a real sense of the craft with a non-spotty education and all that. MFA programs and poetry workshops is vanity commerce IMO.
2. Playing
"I was telling Dan that sometimes I get directions or lines for a poem by doodling--like how "Isolato with a crown.../Isolato with a barge" came from writing the word ISOLATO and putting a box around it and doodling around the box until one edge of it elongated into a tall thing wearing a crown-looking thing and the whole box looked like that thing on a barge.
He wanted to try it, so I said, "Give me a word." and he said, "Jang Kwon." and I said, "What's that?" and he said, "Heel-palm." and I knew it was a kung fu move--so I wrote JANG KWON and put a box around it and we each started doodling and writing commentary on each others doodling and on each others commentary and did some cutting and here is the poem:"
-Dana Levin
This is an example of what i am referring to.
'I' is the first word and the poem devolves into a description of the evolution of the poems subject matter. I cant tell if this dialog is even part of an interview or part of a poem.
This is good
And this seems perfect for the self and what one discerns about the world.
To give birth to ourselves each day makes this death
an act of will, and stopping here to say goodbye is all too sadly telling.
He transcends this "self-center" notion with
"the regions
of our sufferings mapped out upon a sleeve"
far enough, you have no thesis, and your correct, you do not need one.
posted by clavdivs at 8:46 AM on December 18, 2003
2. Playing
"I was telling Dan that sometimes I get directions or lines for a poem by doodling--like how "Isolato with a crown.../Isolato with a barge" came from writing the word ISOLATO and putting a box around it and doodling around the box until one edge of it elongated into a tall thing wearing a crown-looking thing and the whole box looked like that thing on a barge.
He wanted to try it, so I said, "Give me a word." and he said, "Jang Kwon." and I said, "What's that?" and he said, "Heel-palm." and I knew it was a kung fu move--so I wrote JANG KWON and put a box around it and we each started doodling and writing commentary on each others doodling and on each others commentary and did some cutting and here is the poem:"
-Dana Levin
This is an example of what i am referring to.
'I' is the first word and the poem devolves into a description of the evolution of the poems subject matter. I cant tell if this dialog is even part of an interview or part of a poem.
This is good
And this seems perfect for the self and what one discerns about the world.
To give birth to ourselves each day makes this death
an act of will, and stopping here to say goodbye is all too sadly telling.
He transcends this "self-center" notion with
"the regions
of our sufferings mapped out upon a sleeve"
far enough, you have no thesis, and your correct, you do not need one.
posted by clavdivs at 8:46 AM on December 18, 2003
cladivs shut the fuck up -- no one's arguing with you -- no one would kick a three-legged dog -- you are a trainwreck.
mediareport -- thats why i was so persistent.... his poetry is like the neighborhood cat.... who could resist to scratch it behind the ears =)
Pomes is good, check out Scattered Poems, San Francisco Blues, and Mexico City Blues when youre thirsty.
Also, I'm not sure if youre into Buddhism or Eastern Philosophy, but theres a huge 8 part anthology of what began as letters to Ginsberg explaining Buddhism and eventually became his own translation and take : called "Some of the Dharma" Good Stuff. Great sitting on the pot flipping to random pages book.
posted by Satapher at 1:24 PM on December 18, 2003
mediareport -- thats why i was so persistent.... his poetry is like the neighborhood cat.... who could resist to scratch it behind the ears =)
Pomes is good, check out Scattered Poems, San Francisco Blues, and Mexico City Blues when youre thirsty.
Also, I'm not sure if youre into Buddhism or Eastern Philosophy, but theres a huge 8 part anthology of what began as letters to Ginsberg explaining Buddhism and eventually became his own translation and take : called "Some of the Dharma" Good Stuff. Great sitting on the pot flipping to random pages book.
posted by Satapher at 1:24 PM on December 18, 2003
If I where Jack, and I know people who knew him (I knew his nephew very well), I might punch you one in the mouth.
Also, if you read his Bio, you will recall that jack and ginsberg met with a famous buddhist, Jack spouted off something about wisdom for which jack was corrected, he was red faced, yet humble.
Ya, you where arguing. which i see as no loss. It is about opinion, thats all.
Jack would then buy you a drink and apologize.
(don't like my examples?)
posted by clavdivs at 7:50 AM on December 19, 2003
Also, if you read his Bio, you will recall that jack and ginsberg met with a famous buddhist, Jack spouted off something about wisdom for which jack was corrected, he was red faced, yet humble.
Ya, you where arguing. which i see as no loss. It is about opinion, thats all.
Jack would then buy you a drink and apologize.
(don't like my examples?)
posted by clavdivs at 7:50 AM on December 19, 2003
and your a bloated showboat who cannot parse a poem nor come up with a better insult. Why don't you use some of the Dharma Karma and scare up some good snappy-snap verse you self driven putz. Come up with something good rather then weak insults you rancid weenie. Come on, I'll match my modernists to your bleat beat has beens anyday.
Great sitting on the pot flipping to random pages book.
that the best you got you chim-weasel cork snorter. Wind bagged backhoe driver. (this is fun)
I don't think you no poetry from an ass. I think you no SHIT about Eastern Philosophy, you Chung-Tze reject. I bet you think Han-Fei was was working in traffic court.
you do not like my examples because you do not understand them...well, to be fair, shall i put them in paragraph form?....i get it, your in a poetry workshop or even worse, you teach one.
come on Chester the Jester, you wanna dance?
inflated murmur....OHHHHH, great juxaposed image. like your AIM on your user page.
you dun FUCKED UP, you pissed me off.
posted by clavdivs at 8:26 AM on December 20, 2003
Great sitting on the pot flipping to random pages book.
that the best you got you chim-weasel cork snorter. Wind bagged backhoe driver. (this is fun)
I don't think you no poetry from an ass. I think you no SHIT about Eastern Philosophy, you Chung-Tze reject. I bet you think Han-Fei was was working in traffic court.
you do not like my examples because you do not understand them...well, to be fair, shall i put them in paragraph form?....i get it, your in a poetry workshop or even worse, you teach one.
come on Chester the Jester, you wanna dance?
inflated murmur....OHHHHH, great juxaposed image. like your AIM on your user page.
you dun FUCKED UP, you pissed me off.
posted by clavdivs at 8:26 AM on December 20, 2003
one two three four
five six seven eight nine ten
eleven twelve thirteen four
posted by Satapher at 1:37 AM on December 22, 2003
five six seven eight nine ten
eleven twelve thirteen four
posted by Satapher at 1:37 AM on December 22, 2003
Are you practicing patience?
"The Prince of Wu took a boat to Monkey Mountain. As soon as the monkeys saw him they all fled in panic and hid in the treetops. One monkey, however, remained, completely unconcerned, swinging from branch to branch -- an extraordinary display! The Prince shot an arrow at the monkey, but the monkey dexterously caught the arrow in mid-flight. At this the Prince ordered his attendants to make a concerted attack. In an instant the monkey was shot full of arrows and fell dead."
-Chuang Tzu
perhaps you have not learned this were as I have merely forgotten.
"Great wisdom is generous, petty wisdom is contentious. Great speech is impassioned, small speech cantankerous."
— Chuang-Tzu (c 369-c 286 BC)
that one makes my knees weak.
posted by clavdivs at 1:39 PM on December 23, 2003
"The Prince of Wu took a boat to Monkey Mountain. As soon as the monkeys saw him they all fled in panic and hid in the treetops. One monkey, however, remained, completely unconcerned, swinging from branch to branch -- an extraordinary display! The Prince shot an arrow at the monkey, but the monkey dexterously caught the arrow in mid-flight. At this the Prince ordered his attendants to make a concerted attack. In an instant the monkey was shot full of arrows and fell dead."
-Chuang Tzu
perhaps you have not learned this were as I have merely forgotten.
"Great wisdom is generous, petty wisdom is contentious. Great speech is impassioned, small speech cantankerous."
— Chuang-Tzu (c 369-c 286 BC)
that one makes my knees weak.
posted by clavdivs at 1:39 PM on December 23, 2003
what do you think about the idea of you and i as breathing memories? who we are and how we change is based on not only what we remember and forget, but more importantly how we choose to remember and what we choose to forget. the great illusion of consciousness?
everything means nothing and therefore anything can mean everything which leads to everything meaning everything. seems contradictory, but without the first step we get caught in purgatoy.
Chuang-Tzu; Bodhisattva.
posted by Satapher at 3:45 AM on December 28, 2003
everything means nothing and therefore anything can mean everything which leads to everything meaning everything. seems contradictory, but without the first step we get caught in purgatoy.
Chuang-Tzu; Bodhisattva.
posted by Satapher at 3:45 AM on December 28, 2003
"Refugee women in California--survivors of Cambodia's holocaust--have become blind, defying both medicine and psychoanalysis"
posted by clavdivs at 12:40 PM on December 28, 2003
posted by clavdivs at 12:40 PM on December 28, 2003
(I wonder if anyone will ever notice if we keep this thread alive for a year?)
Am I supposed to read all the books on this work cited page? Wrong link?
posted by Satapher at 3:37 PM on December 28, 2003
Am I supposed to read all the books on this work cited page? Wrong link?
posted by Satapher at 3:37 PM on December 28, 2003
alec wilkinson, A Changed Vision of God, 1994, New Yorker.
noone will notice
posted by clavdivs at 6:50 AM on December 29, 2003
noone will notice
posted by clavdivs at 6:50 AM on December 29, 2003
now your being cheeky.
it is a interesting article dealing with real situations.
your Chung-Tzu almost shut my trap up and that is rare.
Is it an Illusion when the mind effects the body in ways one cannot control even when aware of "Illusion"?
this and more next week (or day) from
'As The Filter Turns'
posted by clavdivs at 10:01 AM on December 31, 2003
it is a interesting article dealing with real situations.
your Chung-Tzu almost shut my trap up and that is rare.
Is it an Illusion when the mind effects the body in ways one cannot control even when aware of "Illusion"?
this and more next week (or day) from
'As The Filter Turns'
posted by clavdivs at 10:01 AM on December 31, 2003
Chung-Tzu didnt write that, I did! =)
I was just saying he was a bodhisattva
posted by Satapher at 1:15 AM on January 2, 2004
I was just saying he was a bodhisattva
posted by Satapher at 1:15 AM on January 2, 2004
I'd say you get -10 points for misleding citation. add on 8 because you really did not pass it off as a cite
I thought it was someones bad translation on a good qoute.
everything means nothing and therefore anything can mean everything which leads to everything meaning everything.
that part is a little futile you must admit.
breathing memories i liked that.
I was just saying he was a bodhisattva
ehhhh not so sure, he was pure Taoist, but if you mean teacher i think that goes without saying.
posted by clavdivs at 8:48 AM on January 2, 2004
I thought it was someones bad translation on a good qoute.
everything means nothing and therefore anything can mean everything which leads to everything meaning everything.
that part is a little futile you must admit.
breathing memories i liked that.
I was just saying he was a bodhisattva
ehhhh not so sure, he was pure Taoist, but if you mean teacher i think that goes without saying.
posted by clavdivs at 8:48 AM on January 2, 2004
its as futile as you make it, id say
the Iching is great for giraffes and whirlpools -- its blessed with catalysts. The first magic 8 ball? Do you dig it? I find myself throwing it more and more often -- its indispensable id say
posted by Satapher at 12:22 AM on January 3, 2004
the Iching is great for giraffes and whirlpools -- its blessed with catalysts. The first magic 8 ball? Do you dig it? I find myself throwing it more and more often -- its indispensable id say
posted by Satapher at 12:22 AM on January 3, 2004
someones bad translation on a good quote.
isnt that the definition of white people?
posted by Satapher at 2:30 PM on January 3, 2004
isnt that the definition of white people?
posted by Satapher at 2:30 PM on January 3, 2004
im not feeling the endearment Jake.
can I call you Jake? Jake Ace?
hahahaha =)
posted by Satapher at 5:20 PM on January 7, 2004
can I call you Jake? Jake Ace?
hahahaha =)
posted by Satapher at 5:20 PM on January 7, 2004
that was raw of me.
so, any younger poets you read or like?
posted by clavdivs at 8:20 AM on January 9, 2004
so, any younger poets you read or like?
posted by clavdivs at 8:20 AM on January 9, 2004
Delmore Schwartz is smooth -- the words and images always seems to glide into my thoughts with ease.
Thurston Moore put out a book of poetry et al called "Alabama Wildman" -- its not all great, but what is burns like the night fire
i actually hate poetry. and art.
posted by Satapher at 11:38 PM on January 13, 2004
Thurston Moore put out a book of poetry et al called "Alabama Wildman" -- its not all great, but what is burns like the night fire
i actually hate poetry. and art.
posted by Satapher at 11:38 PM on January 13, 2004
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posted by josh at 12:37 PM on December 14, 2003