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December 15, 2003 4:01 PM Subscribe
The Osama Clock is a reminder that we still have unfinished business with Bin Laden. Some are hopeful that Saddam's capture will undermine bin Laden's support and help to catch him. [More Inside]
Personally I think bin Laden has been dead for a while, but that's just me.
posted by gyc at 4:05 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by gyc at 4:05 PM on December 15, 2003
"Some are hopeful that Saddam's capture will undermine bin Laden's support and help to catch him."
Am I the only one who still remembers that Osama and Saddam have nothing to do with each other and are in fact from opposite ends of the political spectrum?
posted by spazzm at 4:07 PM on December 15, 2003
Am I the only one who still remembers that Osama and Saddam have nothing to do with each other and are in fact from opposite ends of the political spectrum?
posted by spazzm at 4:07 PM on December 15, 2003
I believe that there are links between Hussein and bin-Laden...NOT from watching the teevee or warblogs, but because although they did come from "opposite ends" of the spectrum, they both focused their hatred and evil towards a mutual enemy: the U.S. One of them dared to attack directly, while the other (I believe) focused his efforts in much more covert ways.
And the fact that we have not caught bin-Laden yet does not mean that (a) we are not trying, (b) we don't care anymore, (c) we tried to "divert" attention away from him. It means that we haven't caught him yet - nothing more, nothing less.
But we will - if he's alive. If he's dead, we'll find his carcass. Either way - bin-Laden is a dead man.
posted by davidmsc at 4:24 PM on December 15, 2003
And the fact that we have not caught bin-Laden yet does not mean that (a) we are not trying, (b) we don't care anymore, (c) we tried to "divert" attention away from him. It means that we haven't caught him yet - nothing more, nothing less.
But we will - if he's alive. If he's dead, we'll find his carcass. Either way - bin-Laden is a dead man.
posted by davidmsc at 4:24 PM on December 15, 2003
If by 'is a dead man' you mean 'is not a dead man', then yes, yes he is.
posted by timb at 4:29 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by timb at 4:29 PM on December 15, 2003
(c) we tried to "divert" attention away from him. It means that we haven't caught him yet
Of course we didn't try to divert attention, but had to do so, because we chose to start another war.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 4:31 PM on December 15, 2003
Of course we didn't try to divert attention, but had to do so, because we chose to start another war.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 4:31 PM on December 15, 2003
I don't see a connection either...we should never have stopped looking for him (and rebuilding) Afghanistan--it's going to come back to haunt us (and worse) i think.
and on preview: ...One of them dared to attack directly, while the other (I believe) focused his efforts in much more covert ways.
more covert ways?? what did saddam ever do to us?
posted by amberglow at 4:32 PM on December 15, 2003
and on preview: ...One of them dared to attack directly, while the other (I believe) focused his efforts in much more covert ways.
more covert ways?? what did saddam ever do to us?
posted by amberglow at 4:32 PM on December 15, 2003
more covert ways?? what did saddam ever do to us?
There was that whole assassination plot thing.
posted by angry modem at 4:52 PM on December 15, 2003
There was that whole assassination plot thing.
posted by angry modem at 4:52 PM on December 15, 2003
that's not worth a war..i need something more (don't we try to kill castro every year?) ; >
posted by amberglow at 4:55 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by amberglow at 4:55 PM on December 15, 2003
Are you crazy amberglow, he totally made our gas cost a few cents more per gallon once!
posted by badstone at 5:06 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by badstone at 5:06 PM on December 15, 2003
I still think a connection between them prior to 9/11 was possible but unlikely and unproven (I'm pretty skeptical of the Telegraph article.) I think this cartoon nailed it.
The article about sending fighters to Iraq is interesting, but I take any reports of Bin Laden's current activities with a big grain of salt. It's hard to believe that he's still able to coordinate anything, but if he is, it's ridiculous that he's still free.
As for the effect Saddam's capture may have on Bin Laden's followers, I find it unlikely that there will be any, but I hope I'm wrong. But I suspect that religious fundamentalists will try to spin Saddam's downfall as God's punishment on the Baathist regime, and it could feul al Qaeda's cause in the long run.
posted by homunculus at 5:17 PM on December 15, 2003
The article about sending fighters to Iraq is interesting, but I take any reports of Bin Laden's current activities with a big grain of salt. It's hard to believe that he's still able to coordinate anything, but if he is, it's ridiculous that he's still free.
As for the effect Saddam's capture may have on Bin Laden's followers, I find it unlikely that there will be any, but I hope I'm wrong. But I suspect that religious fundamentalists will try to spin Saddam's downfall as God's punishment on the Baathist regime, and it could feul al Qaeda's cause in the long run.
posted by homunculus at 5:17 PM on December 15, 2003
Are you crazy amberglow, he totally made our gas cost a few cents more per gallon once!
not good enough either, badstone : >
and I second the skepticism about the fighters going to iraq--unless it's just people calling themselves al quaeda (which is not how they operate, i believe)
posted by amberglow at 5:28 PM on December 15, 2003
not good enough either, badstone : >
and I second the skepticism about the fighters going to iraq--unless it's just people calling themselves al quaeda (which is not how they operate, i believe)
posted by amberglow at 5:28 PM on December 15, 2003
Am I the only one who still remembers that Osama and Saddam have nothing to do with each other and are in fact from opposite ends of the political spectrum?
spazzm, which one is the libertarian and which one is the authoritarian?
posted by Ayn Marx at 5:35 PM on December 15, 2003
spazzm, which one is the libertarian and which one is the authoritarian?
posted by Ayn Marx at 5:35 PM on December 15, 2003
This might seem like a conspiracy type theory to some of you. Others would probably argue that because of Islamic ideals of martyrdom its irrelevant. However, I think the U.S. government got him a while ago. Why tell people that you have killed a figure head of a movement. It seems that from a purely military tactics stand point leaving his fate unknown avoids creating a martyr, in the christian sense.
Also you avoid the question of trial, which we are just not starting to open with Sadam. Plus it leaves his followers in the interesting position of either reporting that he is dead and risk losing followers, or at least hurting moral. Or pretending that he is still alive, but lacking any real way to prove it. Which i think is substantiated by his failure to appear in video, something prior to the invasion of Afghanistan he did frequently.
Any way let the refuting being.
posted by sourbrew at 5:41 PM on December 15, 2003
Also you avoid the question of trial, which we are just not starting to open with Sadam. Plus it leaves his followers in the interesting position of either reporting that he is dead and risk losing followers, or at least hurting moral. Or pretending that he is still alive, but lacking any real way to prove it. Which i think is substantiated by his failure to appear in video, something prior to the invasion of Afghanistan he did frequently.
Any way let the refuting being.
posted by sourbrew at 5:41 PM on December 15, 2003
sourbrew, isn't it more likely he's still alive, and planning something? I'd love to believe he's dead, but I'd need some proof or evidence.
posted by amberglow at 5:55 PM on December 15, 2003
posted by amberglow at 5:55 PM on December 15, 2003
spazzm, which one is the libertarian and which one is the authoritarian?
I would think that Osama, with his anarchical vision and his network of loosely connected, self-sustained terror cells, he would be on the libertarian end. Saddam's torture chambers and terror police would put Saddam on the authoritarian end.
And if you associate religion with the right and secularism with the left, these two guys will be on the opposite ends on that count also.
posted by VeGiTo at 5:59 PM on December 15, 2003
I would think that Osama, with his anarchical vision and his network of loosely connected, self-sustained terror cells, he would be on the libertarian end. Saddam's torture chambers and terror police would put Saddam on the authoritarian end.
And if you associate religion with the right and secularism with the left, these two guys will be on the opposite ends on that count also.
posted by VeGiTo at 5:59 PM on December 15, 2003
Ayn Marx: Saddam is a secular socialist, while Osama is a fundamental islamists. As far apart as you can get, basically.
The political spectrum doesn't go from "democrat" to "republican" in the middle east, as you might have noticed.
"what did saddam ever do to us?"
He was clearly bogarting that oil for one thing, even after we told him in no uncertain terms that it belonged to Haliburton.
posted by spazzm at 11:18 PM on December 15, 2003
The political spectrum doesn't go from "democrat" to "republican" in the middle east, as you might have noticed.
"what did saddam ever do to us?"
He was clearly bogarting that oil for one thing, even after we told him in no uncertain terms that it belonged to Haliburton.
posted by spazzm at 11:18 PM on December 15, 2003
Notice that they're not outright saying there is a link between Saddam and Osama. It's just that stories like this create the link in people's minds. The US administration has consistently insinuated a link, so it's not surprising so many people believe it.
posted by salmacis at 1:01 AM on December 16, 2003
posted by salmacis at 1:01 AM on December 16, 2003
salmacis: exactly right
I've been following this whole saga quite closely and with a sort of macabre fascination, but when I talk to people who just rely on the highlights on TV for their news (and this is in the UK - god knows what the US is like) I'm shocked by the misconceptions they still harbour.
As far as most of them are concerned, the war in Iraq was pretty justified - there were links to Al Quaeda and we found some nasty weapons.
W T F ?
I think it's from the immediate aftermath, where every few days there would be a headline "Weapons Facility Found!".. unfortunately there were never any "Not Weapons After All, Was Portable Toilet Facility" headlines a few days later.
posted by cell at 4:49 AM on December 16, 2003
I've been following this whole saga quite closely and with a sort of macabre fascination, but when I talk to people who just rely on the highlights on TV for their news (and this is in the UK - god knows what the US is like) I'm shocked by the misconceptions they still harbour.
As far as most of them are concerned, the war in Iraq was pretty justified - there were links to Al Quaeda and we found some nasty weapons.
W T F ?
I think it's from the immediate aftermath, where every few days there would be a headline "Weapons Facility Found!".. unfortunately there were never any "Not Weapons After All, Was Portable Toilet Facility" headlines a few days later.
posted by cell at 4:49 AM on December 16, 2003
There is a definite link between Osama and Saddam.
It is so obvious I don't know why people keep denying it.
Davidsmc almost got to it above. Any guesses?
Ok, ok, I'll spill the beans!
The retreads in Awol's administration nearly all had close conections to both these tyrants.
We've got documents and pictures to prove it.
They were best buddies during some of the darkest days of these bad guys!
I ain't lying, there's no denying, the magical link goes to the neocon defenders of Zion.
posted by nofundy at 5:05 AM on December 16, 2003
It is so obvious I don't know why people keep denying it.
Davidsmc almost got to it above. Any guesses?
Ok, ok, I'll spill the beans!
The retreads in Awol's administration nearly all had close conections to both these tyrants.
We've got documents and pictures to prove it.
They were best buddies during some of the darkest days of these bad guys!
I ain't lying, there's no denying, the magical link goes to the neocon defenders of Zion.
posted by nofundy at 5:05 AM on December 16, 2003
Sourbrew,
There was a piece in WAPO about a year ago where anonymous intelligence sources told the reporter that the plan, were UBL found, was to put a 1000 lb bomb on the roof of the building and forget anything happened. Capturing was too dangerous, a trial fraught with risk, and trumpeting the killing would merely encourage someone to fill the vacancy. The best possible solution was a dead charismatic leader who no one knew was dead--a leader who never seems to show up to lead.
Given that the only evidence we have of survival have been videos with different audio tracks, audio tapes that could have been made at any time in the last two years, and rumors of his supposed orders, I'm betting he has been dead a year or more. If not, why haven't we seen a video where he turns to the camera and says: "Bremer and Bush will drown in blood", or "Our fighters will cook you like that Turkey, little Bush!" or something else that proves he has been watching CNN?
posted by ednopantz at 9:26 AM on December 16, 2003
There was a piece in WAPO about a year ago where anonymous intelligence sources told the reporter that the plan, were UBL found, was to put a 1000 lb bomb on the roof of the building and forget anything happened. Capturing was too dangerous, a trial fraught with risk, and trumpeting the killing would merely encourage someone to fill the vacancy. The best possible solution was a dead charismatic leader who no one knew was dead--a leader who never seems to show up to lead.
Given that the only evidence we have of survival have been videos with different audio tracks, audio tapes that could have been made at any time in the last two years, and rumors of his supposed orders, I'm betting he has been dead a year or more. If not, why haven't we seen a video where he turns to the camera and says: "Bremer and Bush will drown in blood", or "Our fighters will cook you like that Turkey, little Bush!" or something else that proves he has been watching CNN?
posted by ednopantz at 9:26 AM on December 16, 2003
I agree with ednopantz, that is the feeling I get too... but what would be even cooler though is if the US had him in custody and was forcing him to make new tapes:
"Jews-- turns out they're not so bad! Attack the French instead!"
posted by cell divide at 9:35 AM on December 16, 2003
"Jews-- turns out they're not so bad! Attack the French instead!"
posted by cell divide at 9:35 AM on December 16, 2003
So why don't we put Rumsfeld under oath before Congress, and ask him whether or not Osama is dead? This seems to be one of those situations where Congress has a right to know.
posted by Ptrin at 10:55 AM on December 16, 2003
posted by Ptrin at 10:55 AM on December 16, 2003
I'm betting he has been dead a year or more.
That's certainly possible. One reason I think he's probably alive is that I keep reading that if he had died, he would have become a martyr and word would have spread like wildfire. But then if he died in a cave sorrounded by a few followers who want to pretend he's still alive, who knows. My guess is that he's alive but in very poor condition, and someone close to him like Ayman Al-Zawahiri (who is supposed to be the brains anyway) is calling the shots. But dead or alive, he needs to be accounted for.
The great Osama bin Laden myth
posted by homunculus at 10:58 AM on December 16, 2003
That's certainly possible. One reason I think he's probably alive is that I keep reading that if he had died, he would have become a martyr and word would have spread like wildfire. But then if he died in a cave sorrounded by a few followers who want to pretend he's still alive, who knows. My guess is that he's alive but in very poor condition, and someone close to him like Ayman Al-Zawahiri (who is supposed to be the brains anyway) is calling the shots. But dead or alive, he needs to be accounted for.
The great Osama bin Laden myth
posted by homunculus at 10:58 AM on December 16, 2003
hom, if not disclosing his fate in any way cripples his operation, I'm all for not accounting for him.
posted by ednopantz at 1:15 PM on December 16, 2003
posted by ednopantz at 1:15 PM on December 16, 2003
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For his part, Bin Laden is said to be diverting his forces to Iraq. Regardless of whether there was or was not a connection between al Qaeda and Iraq before 9/11, there seems to be one now.
But the big question is, on a global scale, is al Qaeda winning?
posted by homunculus at 4:03 PM on December 15, 2003