spanish police arrest muslim suspects
March 13, 2004 11:22 AM Subscribe
spokesman of spanish police announces muslim men of moroccan, indian and spanish nationality were arrested this evening. goodbye and thank you, jose maria aznar.
Spain to Announce Muslim Arrests Over Bombs-Report - found one.
posted by dabitch at 11:38 AM on March 13, 2004
posted by dabitch at 11:38 AM on March 13, 2004
hmm...well, from what i gather:
Spain's spies blame Muslims for bombs
Spain to Announce Muslim Arrests Over Bombs
Spain Announces Five Arrests in Bombings
The suspects "could be related to Moroccan extremist groups," the minister said. "But we should not rule out anything. Police are still investigating all avenues. This opens an important avenue."
I guess there isn't any really credible source now since the press conference is still going on. But couldn't you just have added this to the current thread on the topic? And if you want to post something, do some work please.
on preview: damn you 327.ca ! i was too slow :( on preview:preview: and dabitch
posted by Stynxno at 11:38 AM on March 13, 2004
Spain's spies blame Muslims for bombs
Spain to Announce Muslim Arrests Over Bombs
Spain Announces Five Arrests in Bombings
The suspects "could be related to Moroccan extremist groups," the minister said. "But we should not rule out anything. Police are still investigating all avenues. This opens an important avenue."
I guess there isn't any really credible source now since the press conference is still going on. But couldn't you just have added this to the current thread on the topic? And if you want to post something, do some work please.
on preview: damn you 327.ca ! i was too slow :( on preview:preview: and dabitch
posted by Stynxno at 11:38 AM on March 13, 2004
i'll second that damn 327.ca ! I didn't see that on preview. ;)
posted by dabitch at 11:41 AM on March 13, 2004
posted by dabitch at 11:41 AM on March 13, 2004
they were so concerned about being reelected that they held the news until hours before the election...there are protests live on cnn on the streets of Madrid now against the govt's handling of this.
posted by amberglow at 11:45 AM on March 13, 2004
posted by amberglow at 11:45 AM on March 13, 2004
Spain's intelligence service is "99 percent certain" Muslim not Basque militants perpetrated the Madrid train bombings that killed 200 people ... It fueled grumbling from critics that Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's government might be focusing on the Basque group, rather than al Qaeda, for internal political gain ahead of Sunday's election. Ministers angrily denied the charge.
posted by amberglow at 11:54 AM on March 13, 2004
posted by amberglow at 11:54 AM on March 13, 2004
According to the BBC, they're being held for involvement in the illegal sale of a mobile phone & card found in a bomb that didn't go off.
...which doesn't mean they're the guys that did the bombs. Not to disappoint anyone, but they could just be regular old run-of-the-mill GSM thieves.
posted by aramaic at 11:59 AM on March 13, 2004
...which doesn't mean they're the guys that did the bombs. Not to disappoint anyone, but they could just be regular old run-of-the-mill GSM thieves.
posted by aramaic at 11:59 AM on March 13, 2004
Jose Maria Aznar seems to have tried to emulate Bush in his own land. Too bad he didn't have the capacity to keep it until the election was over.
Besides the unnecessary carnage and obvious human loss, I'm concerned that this will create the most substantial link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda (not that anything's been proven, mind you) to our own administration.
I'm surprised they haven't made this comment yet, but it's coming...
posted by Busithoth at 12:01 PM on March 13, 2004
Besides the unnecessary carnage and obvious human loss, I'm concerned that this will create the most substantial link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda (not that anything's been proven, mind you) to our own administration.
I'm surprised they haven't made this comment yet, but it's coming...
posted by Busithoth at 12:01 PM on March 13, 2004
What skallas said. Chronology is still a linear phenomenon, as far as I know.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:07 PM on March 13, 2004
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:07 PM on March 13, 2004
Meanwhile in Spain...
the government is still very ambiguous about ruling out any option, the CNI, the Spanish secret services, have denied that they are "99% sure on the Al-Qaeda option". It is a very strange night, with demonstrations and a cross fire of statements of the leading candidates in the day before an election!
I am having supper with friends, but we have the tv turned on and silent, just in case something more happens: in the Basque Country today a policeman out of duty has shoot dead the owner of a bakery because he didn't want to put a banner saying "ETA NO" in his shop, there are people demonstrating in front of the Partido Popular headquarters... online forums.. you just have to keep your head down to avoid getting caught between flames...
I think tonight I am going to get (more) drunk...
posted by samelborp at 2:13 PM on March 13, 2004
the government is still very ambiguous about ruling out any option, the CNI, the Spanish secret services, have denied that they are "99% sure on the Al-Qaeda option". It is a very strange night, with demonstrations and a cross fire of statements of the leading candidates in the day before an election!
I am having supper with friends, but we have the tv turned on and silent, just in case something more happens: in the Basque Country today a policeman out of duty has shoot dead the owner of a bakery because he didn't want to put a banner saying "ETA NO" in his shop, there are people demonstrating in front of the Partido Popular headquarters... online forums.. you just have to keep your head down to avoid getting caught between flames...
I think tonight I am going to get (more) drunk...
posted by samelborp at 2:13 PM on March 13, 2004
Not to disappoint anyone, but they could just be regular old run-of-the-mill GSM thieves.
Could be the phone was the trigger.
posted by carter at 2:20 PM on March 13, 2004
Could be the phone was the trigger.
posted by carter at 2:20 PM on March 13, 2004
thank you, samelborp, keep us informed.
what about the following argument: there were several bombs at the same time in different locations. You need guys to place the bombs, guy to check there is police around, others to make the bombs, some drivers, etc. It may seem that at least 20-30 people were involved.
posted by MzB at 2:38 PM on March 13, 2004
what about the following argument: there were several bombs at the same time in different locations. You need guys to place the bombs, guy to check there is police around, others to make the bombs, some drivers, etc. It may seem that at least 20-30 people were involved.
posted by MzB at 2:38 PM on March 13, 2004
a videotape was just released...a morrocan-accented guy claiming it was done in the name of Al Qaeda. CNN just announced.
posted by amberglow at 3:51 PM on March 13, 2004
posted by amberglow at 3:51 PM on March 13, 2004
I was shocked at the spontaneous demonstrations, thousands of people, cropping up in front of the headquarters of the Partido Popular today demanding the truth and chanting things like "¡VUESTRA GUERRA, NUESTROS MUERTOS!" (YOUR WAR, OUR DEAD BODIES!) and demanding the truth.Such a fundamental thing in a democracy. Apparently the protests in Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia and several other cities keep growing, by word of mouth and mobile phone messages. It is now 1 am in Madrid, these protests started at 6 pm! Keep in mind that NOT A SINGLE IMAGE of these growing protests is being shown on state TV or other TV channels indirectly controlled by the Partido Popular (only Berlusconi has more control over the media in his country than Aznar) and one of the biggest issues that is being protested is the media manipulation of the TRUTH.
The candidate for the PP, Mariano Rajoy (Aznar is "retiring" from politics) has threatened to sue, because it is illegal to organize protests on the day before an election, but he is coming off as an ass that he is because NO POLITICAL PARTY ORGANIZED THEM! These are truly spontaneous protests! Not a single political leader among them!
How this will affect the elections tomorrow I have no idea, but I have hope, the last 4 years the PP has had an absolute majority and in a parliamentary system that is a most dangerous thing. Even if the PP win the elections with a simple majority they will have a difficult time governing because, being no friend of dialogue, they've alienated all the other political parties, including PNV and CIU which are conservative parties but Nationalist (Basque and Catalán) leaving lowly Coalition Canarias with their very few Parliamentary seats (3-4) who are willing to form govenment with the fascists.
Sorry for the exaltation, but we really need to get rid of the absolute majority, this fascist goverment is literally KILLING US !
posted by sic at 4:10 PM on March 13, 2004
The candidate for the PP, Mariano Rajoy (Aznar is "retiring" from politics) has threatened to sue, because it is illegal to organize protests on the day before an election, but he is coming off as an ass that he is because NO POLITICAL PARTY ORGANIZED THEM! These are truly spontaneous protests! Not a single political leader among them!
How this will affect the elections tomorrow I have no idea, but I have hope, the last 4 years the PP has had an absolute majority and in a parliamentary system that is a most dangerous thing. Even if the PP win the elections with a simple majority they will have a difficult time governing because, being no friend of dialogue, they've alienated all the other political parties, including PNV and CIU which are conservative parties but Nationalist (Basque and Catalán) leaving lowly Coalition Canarias with their very few Parliamentary seats (3-4) who are willing to form govenment with the fascists.
Sorry for the exaltation, but we really need to get rid of the absolute majority, this fascist goverment is literally KILLING US !
posted by sic at 4:10 PM on March 13, 2004
a morrocan-accented guy claiming it was done in the name of Al Qaeda
As it has been pointed out before, this proves nothing. The group that claimed responsibility for the attack also claims they were the ones who cut the power to the Northeast U.S. several months ago.
So far the evidence is pretty evenly split between the two, as this BBC article summarizes.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:13 PM on March 13, 2004
As it has been pointed out before, this proves nothing. The group that claimed responsibility for the attack also claims they were the ones who cut the power to the Northeast U.S. several months ago.
So far the evidence is pretty evenly split between the two, as this BBC article summarizes.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:13 PM on March 13, 2004
Keep in mind that NOT A SINGLE IMAGE of these growing protests is being shown on state TV or other TV channels indirectly controlled by the Partido Popular...
CNN's been showing it a lot today--you guys need to make sure everyone going to the polls tomorrow knows about all the developments and that the PP's decision to join with Bush brought this down on their heads. and i'm shuddering at what's going to happen to us in Oct/Nov
CD: CNN said that this was new evidence, and not connected to the group that claimed responsibility before.
posted by amberglow at 4:18 PM on March 13, 2004
CNN's been showing it a lot today--you guys need to make sure everyone going to the polls tomorrow knows about all the developments and that the PP's decision to join with Bush brought this down on their heads. and i'm shuddering at what's going to happen to us in Oct/Nov
CD: CNN said that this was new evidence, and not connected to the group that claimed responsibility before.
posted by amberglow at 4:18 PM on March 13, 2004
here's the cnn story: And a man appearing in a videotape claiming to be a military spokesman for Al Qaeda in Europe says the terror group is behind Thursday's bombings that killed 200 people. The tape -- which has not been independently verified -- was delivered to a broadcast station Saturday.
posted by amberglow at 4:21 PM on March 13, 2004
posted by amberglow at 4:21 PM on March 13, 2004
decision to join with Bush brought this down on their heads
They were just asking for it weren't they? The people that carried out the attack had no option, no other way of having their voices heard.
Your moral relevance is stomach turning.
posted by Mick at 4:28 PM on March 13, 2004
They were just asking for it weren't they? The people that carried out the attack had no option, no other way of having their voices heard.
Your moral relevance is stomach turning.
posted by Mick at 4:28 PM on March 13, 2004
Yes the tape is new evidence a different group altogether. Get it through your heads, this was not ETA. Apparently they've had the tape since this morning but they only recently brought it to light, since most voters are already in bed...
I've been watching Spanish CNN all day, cable not regular tv of course. Unfortunately I don't live in one of the big cities or I'd be out there on the streets.
Look, I thought after the Iraq war, the Prestige disaster in Galicia (where the government's shocking incompetence caused most of the problem) and the general nation wide strike that we were going to win the municipal and autonomous community elections last year, but the country maintained the status quo. So I don't know if this last tragedy (not the first) is finally waking people up here or what. The right wing always votes in this country, it's the "radical" left-wing youth who don't vote, because they've lost all faith in politics. Who knows? Maybe they hate the PP enough that they'll vote this time around.
Mick: holding the PP accountable for their recklessness that put our country in Al-Qaeda's crosshairs is not the same as saying that we "deserved" the brutal attack. Remember that around 90% of the Spanish population was against the war in Iraq, millions of people protested it here and the government joined in the coalition anyway, to benefit the small group of wealthy friends of the government via the petroleum company REPSOL. THINK!
posted by sic at 4:32 PM on March 13, 2004
I've been watching Spanish CNN all day, cable not regular tv of course. Unfortunately I don't live in one of the big cities or I'd be out there on the streets.
Look, I thought after the Iraq war, the Prestige disaster in Galicia (where the government's shocking incompetence caused most of the problem) and the general nation wide strike that we were going to win the municipal and autonomous community elections last year, but the country maintained the status quo. So I don't know if this last tragedy (not the first) is finally waking people up here or what. The right wing always votes in this country, it's the "radical" left-wing youth who don't vote, because they've lost all faith in politics. Who knows? Maybe they hate the PP enough that they'll vote this time around.
Mick: holding the PP accountable for their recklessness that put our country in Al-Qaeda's crosshairs is not the same as saying that we "deserved" the brutal attack. Remember that around 90% of the Spanish population was against the war in Iraq, millions of people protested it here and the government joined in the coalition anyway, to benefit the small group of wealthy friends of the government via the petroleum company REPSOL. THINK!
posted by sic at 4:32 PM on March 13, 2004
They were just asking for it weren't they? The people that carried out the attack had no option, no other way of having their voices heard.
Your moral relevance is stomach turning.
Here's some pepto, Mick--enjoy! Al Qaeda threatened all the countries that joined with us. Everyone on earth knows how they operate, and by what methods. You watch and see if France, a country that didn't join us, is attacked. I'll bet everything I own they won't be.
As sic said, the vast vast majority of the Spanish did not want to go to Iraq, but their elected officials ignored them. This is the price, and it's not worth it.
posted by amberglow at 4:40 PM on March 13, 2004
Your moral relevance is stomach turning.
Here's some pepto, Mick--enjoy! Al Qaeda threatened all the countries that joined with us. Everyone on earth knows how they operate, and by what methods. You watch and see if France, a country that didn't join us, is attacked. I'll bet everything I own they won't be.
As sic said, the vast vast majority of the Spanish did not want to go to Iraq, but their elected officials ignored them. This is the price, and it's not worth it.
posted by amberglow at 4:40 PM on March 13, 2004
They were just asking for it weren't they? The people that carried out the attack had no option, no other way of having their voices heard.
Your moral relevance is stomach turning.
I think the word you're searching for there is 'relativity', Mick.
And you're a dumbass for pulling the same stupid grunt arguments that people used after 9/11 and Bali. Suggesting that because one can see the the reasoning that these vicious scum followed in choosing to set bombs and kill innocent people does not mean that one excuses them. It is perhaps indicative of the limits to the intelligence of people like yourself -- of which there are worryingly many -- that they find it impossible to even imagine the thought processes of those with whom they are in conflict, are threatened by the very idea, and conflate the ability of those who can with somehow putting them in complicity with the bad actors.
To understand the antecedents that led to an act of terror is not to forgive them.
That's part of the reason America suffers under the Bushites and their Patriot Act and illegal concentration camp at Gunatanamo and all the rest, right there.
Stomach turning indeed.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:16 PM on March 13, 2004
Your moral relevance is stomach turning.
I think the word you're searching for there is 'relativity', Mick.
And you're a dumbass for pulling the same stupid grunt arguments that people used after 9/11 and Bali. Suggesting that because one can see the the reasoning that these vicious scum followed in choosing to set bombs and kill innocent people does not mean that one excuses them. It is perhaps indicative of the limits to the intelligence of people like yourself -- of which there are worryingly many -- that they find it impossible to even imagine the thought processes of those with whom they are in conflict, are threatened by the very idea, and conflate the ability of those who can with somehow putting them in complicity with the bad actors.
To understand the antecedents that led to an act of terror is not to forgive them.
That's part of the reason America suffers under the Bushites and their Patriot Act and illegal concentration camp at Gunatanamo and all the rest, right there.
Stomach turning indeed.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:16 PM on March 13, 2004
paraphrasing: [stupid Aznar. if Spain hadn't attacked Iraq, this never would have happened.]
Maybe, maybe not. I was against the Iraq war, but to suggest we should let terrorists dictate our foreign policy to asinine.
posted by lbergstr at 6:30 PM on March 13, 2004
Maybe, maybe not. I was against the Iraq war, but to suggest we should let terrorists dictate our foreign policy to asinine.
posted by lbergstr at 6:30 PM on March 13, 2004
Maybe, maybe not. I was against the Iraq war, but to suggest we should let terrorists dictate our foreign policy to asinine.
No actually we Spanish who protested the war were suggesting that the rule of international law and the will of the Spanish people dictate foreign policy, not the desires of a greedy few who were attacking a country that had not perpetrated 9-11 or any other terrorist attack that I am aware of.
It was an illegal and unnecessary war, the embargos were working, that now the Islamic fundamentalists are using as an excuse to attack our country. Granted, they may have found some other excuse, they are insane after all, but should we reward politicians that make bad decisions that get people killed? As with ETA we need to dialogue not inflame the passions of insane men with bombs.
posted by sic at 6:42 PM on March 13, 2004
No actually we Spanish who protested the war were suggesting that the rule of international law and the will of the Spanish people dictate foreign policy, not the desires of a greedy few who were attacking a country that had not perpetrated 9-11 or any other terrorist attack that I am aware of.
It was an illegal and unnecessary war, the embargos were working, that now the Islamic fundamentalists are using as an excuse to attack our country. Granted, they may have found some other excuse, they are insane after all, but should we reward politicians that make bad decisions that get people killed? As with ETA we need to dialogue not inflame the passions of insane men with bombs.
posted by sic at 6:42 PM on March 13, 2004
Here's some pepto, Mick--enjoy! Al Qaeda threatened all the countries that joined with us. Everyone on earth knows how they operate, and by what methods. You watch and see if France, a country that didn't join us, is attacked. I'll bet everything I own they won't be.
Actually, I'll bet they will be. (France has its own troubles with Islam, it has a substantial Muslim population, was - in case anyone's forgotton - one of the more signficant "imperialists" in Islamic countries in the past, and recently has done things like outlaw veils in schools.
True, France did have powerful ulterior motives on Iraq (like huge contracts between French oil interests and Saddam Hussain, worth billions in Hussain remained in power and sanctions were lifted) - and made it clear that they would veto any UN resolution for the use of force ... but the French are also smart enough to know that doesn't get them a get-out-of-jail-free card with Al Qaeda (which is why they elevated their own terrorist threat level within hours of the Madrid events).
Anyone that fucks with Islam (or is even perceived to do so) is a target. Remove the US, and its resolve to go after threats in the countries that initiate them, rather than just just to catch people after they've done so again here - and that will still be the case.
posted by MidasMulligan at 6:47 PM on March 13, 2004
Actually, I'll bet they will be. (France has its own troubles with Islam, it has a substantial Muslim population, was - in case anyone's forgotton - one of the more signficant "imperialists" in Islamic countries in the past, and recently has done things like outlaw veils in schools.
True, France did have powerful ulterior motives on Iraq (like huge contracts between French oil interests and Saddam Hussain, worth billions in Hussain remained in power and sanctions were lifted) - and made it clear that they would veto any UN resolution for the use of force ... but the French are also smart enough to know that doesn't get them a get-out-of-jail-free card with Al Qaeda (which is why they elevated their own terrorist threat level within hours of the Madrid events).
Anyone that fucks with Islam (or is even perceived to do so) is a target. Remove the US, and its resolve to go after threats in the countries that initiate them, rather than just just to catch people after they've done so again here - and that will still be the case.
posted by MidasMulligan at 6:47 PM on March 13, 2004
I agree that it was an illegal and unnecessary war, and that is enough in my mind to vote them out. But castigating them for the bombing suggests that they should have taken the wishes of terrorists into account when deciding a course of action, and I can't agree with that.
posted by lbergstr at 6:52 PM on March 13, 2004
posted by lbergstr at 6:52 PM on March 13, 2004
MetaTalk
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 9:01 PM on March 13, 2004
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 9:01 PM on March 13, 2004
Anyone that fucks with Islam (or is even perceived to do so) is a target.
I would hazard to say that if the same attacks were done against Christianity and Christianity alone -- to hell with anybody's humanity -- Anybody who would even look like they wanted to fuck with Us Christians would also be a target.
Oh guess what? They are!
posted by crasspastor at 9:10 PM on March 13, 2004
I would hazard to say that if the same attacks were done against Christianity and Christianity alone -- to hell with anybody's humanity -- Anybody who would even look like they wanted to fuck with Us Christians would also be a target.
Oh guess what? They are!
posted by crasspastor at 9:10 PM on March 13, 2004
No actually we Spanish who protested the war were suggesting that the rule of international law and the will of the Spanish people dictate foreign policy, not the desires of a greedy few who were attacking a country that had not perpetrated 9-11 or any other terrorist attack that I am aware of.
As did millions across the world, including those of us that felt that way in Bush's "home" state. And for what it's worth, there are going to be some (hopefully) significant amount of people showing up at George's ranch next weekend (I very may well be one of them). I've really enjoyed your contributions through this whole ordeal, sic. Please continue them.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:18 PM on March 13, 2004
As did millions across the world, including those of us that felt that way in Bush's "home" state. And for what it's worth, there are going to be some (hopefully) significant amount of people showing up at George's ranch next weekend (I very may well be one of them). I've really enjoyed your contributions through this whole ordeal, sic. Please continue them.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:18 PM on March 13, 2004
Thanks Ufez, I know I haven't always been coherent but this weekend has been an incredible rollercoaster of emotion, I'm feeling drained and hung over this Sunday morning (Election day!)
I was just reading in Cadena Ser (in Spanish) how Aznar and other government members personally were pressuring the state run and other state influenced news media to not say a word about the Al-Qaeda connections before the elections, forcing them to focus on the electorally valuable ETA connection. Even when the spontaneous protests forced Angel Acebes the Minister of the Interior to come clean with the arrests, the video tape etc. STATE TELEVISION DID NOT SHOW HIS NEWS CONFERENCE! He only appeared on CNN (cable). Nor did they show Mariano Rajoy's conference calling the spontaneous protests "anti-democratic and illegal". One conservative station in Valencia did show the protests but insisted over and over again that the opposition party had organized them, a lie. This government rules on lies, on distortorting and hiding the truth from its constituents.
At this point I can only believe that the majority of the pueblo, those that live their lives around football, the celebrity-gossip press and State Run news, have no idea of the enormous events that took place yesterday.
The polls are open, let's see what happens....
posted by sic at 2:38 AM on March 14, 2004
I was just reading in Cadena Ser (in Spanish) how Aznar and other government members personally were pressuring the state run and other state influenced news media to not say a word about the Al-Qaeda connections before the elections, forcing them to focus on the electorally valuable ETA connection. Even when the spontaneous protests forced Angel Acebes the Minister of the Interior to come clean with the arrests, the video tape etc. STATE TELEVISION DID NOT SHOW HIS NEWS CONFERENCE! He only appeared on CNN (cable). Nor did they show Mariano Rajoy's conference calling the spontaneous protests "anti-democratic and illegal". One conservative station in Valencia did show the protests but insisted over and over again that the opposition party had organized them, a lie. This government rules on lies, on distortorting and hiding the truth from its constituents.
At this point I can only believe that the majority of the pueblo, those that live their lives around football, the celebrity-gossip press and State Run news, have no idea of the enormous events that took place yesterday.
The polls are open, let's see what happens....
posted by sic at 2:38 AM on March 14, 2004
From the Cadena Ser:
El gobierno de Aznar ha utilizado todos los medios de comunicación públicos y todos los medios privados cercanos ideológicamente al gobierno para tratar de mantener durante tres días como única tesis la autoría de ETA en los brutales atentados del jueves en Madrid. Aznar y el gobierno se han implicado personalmente llamando a los directores de los medios escritos nacionales y a los corresponsales extranjeros.
Translation:
Aznar's government has used the state run and private press ideologically close to the government to try and maintain the thesis that ETA was the author of the brutal terrorists on Thursday in Madrid. Aznar and other members of the government have personally involved themselves in calling the directors of the the national written media and the foreign correspondants....
La actitud de Urdaci ha provocado un gran malestar entre muchos periodistas de RTVE que incluso en algún programa han estado a punto de rebelarse según fuentes de los propios trabajadores.
Translation
The attitud of Urdaci (president of Radio Television Española RTVE) has caused unrest among many of the journalists in RTVE who during some programs were on the verge of rebelling according to sources amoung the workers.
Disgusting.
posted by sic at 2:51 AM on March 14, 2004
El gobierno de Aznar ha utilizado todos los medios de comunicación públicos y todos los medios privados cercanos ideológicamente al gobierno para tratar de mantener durante tres días como única tesis la autoría de ETA en los brutales atentados del jueves en Madrid. Aznar y el gobierno se han implicado personalmente llamando a los directores de los medios escritos nacionales y a los corresponsales extranjeros.
Translation:
Aznar's government has used the state run and private press ideologically close to the government to try and maintain the thesis that ETA was the author of the brutal terrorists on Thursday in Madrid. Aznar and other members of the government have personally involved themselves in calling the directors of the the national written media and the foreign correspondants....
La actitud de Urdaci ha provocado un gran malestar entre muchos periodistas de RTVE que incluso en algún programa han estado a punto de rebelarse según fuentes de los propios trabajadores.
Translation
The attitud of Urdaci (president of Radio Television Española RTVE) has caused unrest among many of the journalists in RTVE who during some programs were on the verge of rebelling according to sources amoung the workers.
Disgusting.
posted by sic at 2:51 AM on March 14, 2004
The trouble is, that with Islam, "fuck with us" keeps getting defined down.
The day before yesterday, it was "not letting us live our lives according to Islam, in peaceful coexistence with you."
Yesterday, it was "not letting us have autonomy over the parts of the country where Moslems live."
Today, it is "not letting Moslems rule over everybody else if they have a simple majority--and SCREW minority rights. Sharia for everybody if we have 51%!"
Tomorrow, it is "unless you give absolute authority to our SECT of Islam, you are heathen dogs who can be killed with impunity. Law is what we say it is on the spur of the moment, or at whim, enforced by murder. Women are dogs and slavery is good. That is our RIGHT AND THE WILL OF ALLAH."
I see examples of this all over the world. Is this any kind of system you want to live under? Personally, I'm even kind of so-so on the "peaceful coexistence" thing, if it involves ghettoization, radical mullahs spewing hate, and lovely traditions like female circumcision.
Incrementalism into evil still gets you where you're going.
posted by kablam at 2:53 AM on March 14, 2004
The day before yesterday, it was "not letting us live our lives according to Islam, in peaceful coexistence with you."
Yesterday, it was "not letting us have autonomy over the parts of the country where Moslems live."
Today, it is "not letting Moslems rule over everybody else if they have a simple majority--and SCREW minority rights. Sharia for everybody if we have 51%!"
Tomorrow, it is "unless you give absolute authority to our SECT of Islam, you are heathen dogs who can be killed with impunity. Law is what we say it is on the spur of the moment, or at whim, enforced by murder. Women are dogs and slavery is good. That is our RIGHT AND THE WILL OF ALLAH."
I see examples of this all over the world. Is this any kind of system you want to live under? Personally, I'm even kind of so-so on the "peaceful coexistence" thing, if it involves ghettoization, radical mullahs spewing hate, and lovely traditions like female circumcision.
Incrementalism into evil still gets you where you're going.
posted by kablam at 2:53 AM on March 14, 2004
Is this any kind of system you want to live under?
Yes, I am voting for the radical Islamic terrorist party today.
Single stupidest response to one of my posts. Ever.
!
posted by sic at 3:12 AM on March 14, 2004
Yes, I am voting for the radical Islamic terrorist party today.
Single stupidest response to one of my posts. Ever.
!
posted by sic at 3:12 AM on March 14, 2004
Thankyou sic for letting us know what is going on over there withthe spontaneous demonstrations, it barely made a small minute-notice on the news here (CNN and BBC had it I'm sure, but I have neither).
posted by dabitch at 5:03 AM on March 14, 2004
posted by dabitch at 5:03 AM on March 14, 2004
sic: are you saying there isn't a progression in Islam from liberal to radical? That Imams don't continually try to incorporate, then force, their religious views on others?
That there aren't hundreds of examples of Moslem leaders trying to push whatever society they live in to more fully embrace Islam?
Now, I would not limit this to Islam, but would include any system that is run by a priestly class. Heaven knows, Christians continually harp about how they are oppressed if they can't control, dominate, and force their wills on others.
Buddhists priests do it, Hindus priests do it. They just can't resist trying to get political power, and then MORE political power. And, invariably, when they have it, they abuse it.
Why? Because they ALL believe that the right to rule comes from THEIR God, not man. "We the People..." doesn't make any sense to them. Democracy is only good when it serves THEIR ends.
And THEIR ends are never democratic.
Theocracy is evil, no matter what religion. And efforts to achieve theocracy must be countered at every turn. Priests and all such shaman belong in their churches, synagogues and mosques, mumbling ritual inanities at their invisible monster gods, NOT ruling over their fellow men.
posted by kablam at 7:56 AM on March 14, 2004
That there aren't hundreds of examples of Moslem leaders trying to push whatever society they live in to more fully embrace Islam?
Now, I would not limit this to Islam, but would include any system that is run by a priestly class. Heaven knows, Christians continually harp about how they are oppressed if they can't control, dominate, and force their wills on others.
Buddhists priests do it, Hindus priests do it. They just can't resist trying to get political power, and then MORE political power. And, invariably, when they have it, they abuse it.
Why? Because they ALL believe that the right to rule comes from THEIR God, not man. "We the People..." doesn't make any sense to them. Democracy is only good when it serves THEIR ends.
And THEIR ends are never democratic.
Theocracy is evil, no matter what religion. And efforts to achieve theocracy must be countered at every turn. Priests and all such shaman belong in their churches, synagogues and mosques, mumbling ritual inanities at their invisible monster gods, NOT ruling over their fellow men.
posted by kablam at 7:56 AM on March 14, 2004
Al Qaeda threatened all the countries that joined with us. Everyone on earth knows how they operate, and by what methods. You watch and see if France, a country that didn't join us, is attacked. I'll bet everything I own they won't be.
Well, isn't that letting terrorism become an accepted tool of foriegn policy? Saying that they "brought it on their own heads," is shifting the blame away from the true guilty party, the people who blow up buildings and trains.
I don't like a lot of the shit my country does but to claim that this is somehow America's fault borders on the obscene.
Sorry but I gotta go with Mick and Kablam here.
posted by jonmc at 8:18 AM on March 14, 2004
Well, isn't that letting terrorism become an accepted tool of foriegn policy? Saying that they "brought it on their own heads," is shifting the blame away from the true guilty party, the people who blow up buildings and trains.
I don't like a lot of the shit my country does but to claim that this is somehow America's fault borders on the obscene.
Sorry but I gotta go with Mick and Kablam here.
posted by jonmc at 8:18 AM on March 14, 2004
It's not letting terrorism become anything--it's stating facts (and with France, a prediction). Many people said that invading Iraq would inflame many people in the Islamic world. Well, guess what? it did. It's clear that any country who joined with us is now a target, where before they weren't (except in the most general sense, being western democracies).
posted by amberglow at 9:06 AM on March 14, 2004
posted by amberglow at 9:06 AM on March 14, 2004
Results, as they are coming in, from the Spanish ministry of interior (in Spanish).
It looks like the Socialists are heading for a landslide, but I'm not sure how representative the sample is (there is a large geographical difference in voting paterns by region).
posted by talos at 12:40 PM on March 14, 2004
It looks like the Socialists are heading for a landslide, but I'm not sure how representative the sample is (there is a large geographical difference in voting paterns by region).
posted by talos at 12:40 PM on March 14, 2004
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posted by Stynxno at 11:27 AM on March 13, 2004