$14,000 a year
September 17, 2000 1:33 PM Subscribe
$14,000 a year for devout Christians attending "top 5" graduate and professional programs, in order to seed national leadership with believers. An alternative approach is Ave Maria School of Law, founded by Domino's Pizza founder Tom Monaghan expressly because they believe that Christian professional education is essentially impossible in the elite institutions.
Ha! Won't work: those that get quality education recognize that Christianity is a scam. Happened to me. . . .
posted by norm at 8:07 AM on September 18, 2000
posted by norm at 8:07 AM on September 18, 2000
Ha! Won't work: those that get quality education recognize that Christianity is a scam. Happened to me. . . .
posted by norm at 8:10 AM on September 18, 2000
posted by norm at 8:10 AM on September 18, 2000
the Mustard Seed Foundation is a great organization and the people behind it are completely solid.
additionally, it is not the case that educated people come to recognize that Christianity is a scam. i wonder what made you come to this conclusion?
note: your response will help me to know if there's a place for dialogue here between people who think differently.
posted by Sean Meade at 11:28 AM on September 18, 2000
additionally, it is not the case that educated people come to recognize that Christianity is a scam. i wonder what made you come to this conclusion?
note: your response will help me to know if there's a place for dialogue here between people who think differently.
posted by Sean Meade at 11:28 AM on September 18, 2000
But what of Apollo? Where can a devout believer receive a Apollo-centric education?
It is impossible to get a godly education in the elite institutions, as they're riddled with heathen "christians" and other vile non-believers. Only the True Apollonian can attain perfection; all others are doomed to corruption and decay, trapped in the piggish appetites of flesh.
Let us come together then, and create a new university intended only for the education of pure and godly Apollonians, free from the pollution of nonbelievers.
posted by aramaic at 1:01 PM on September 18, 2000
It is impossible to get a godly education in the elite institutions, as they're riddled with heathen "christians" and other vile non-believers. Only the True Apollonian can attain perfection; all others are doomed to corruption and decay, trapped in the piggish appetites of flesh.
Let us come together then, and create a new university intended only for the education of pure and godly Apollonians, free from the pollution of nonbelievers.
posted by aramaic at 1:01 PM on September 18, 2000
Actually, my quality education included a class on the Old Testament, which is a Bad Thing for anyone raised in a fundamentalist tradition and who wants to hold on to the naivete required for such a world view. Once one finds a scholarly way of interpreting the bible it really can cast doubts on what you were taught before. I do not pretend that the way I read the bible is the only one possible -- but my religious upbringing involved much lying and obfuscation when obvious questions were asked.
Additionally, the freedom of an academic setting enabled me to think freely and be encouraged to do so. At church my tendency to think was always discouraged and the culture of ignorance is absolutely abhorrent to me.
So, I had a de-conversion. It was kind of like Paul on the road to Damascus, except in reverse. Among the problems I have with christianity are:
a) inconsistency with Jesus' message with modern christianity
b) manipulation and forgery in supposedly holy "scripture"
c) power relationships of "pastor" to "flock"
d) unconscionable treatment of (name a minority) and blatant misogyny
e) approval of use of the church as a power base in society
f) hypocrisy of all christians
g) fact that there is no god as people think of 'him'
I hope that was civil enough for you, sean.
posted by norm at 1:44 PM on September 18, 2000
Additionally, the freedom of an academic setting enabled me to think freely and be encouraged to do so. At church my tendency to think was always discouraged and the culture of ignorance is absolutely abhorrent to me.
So, I had a de-conversion. It was kind of like Paul on the road to Damascus, except in reverse. Among the problems I have with christianity are:
a) inconsistency with Jesus' message with modern christianity
b) manipulation and forgery in supposedly holy "scripture"
c) power relationships of "pastor" to "flock"
d) unconscionable treatment of (name a minority) and blatant misogyny
e) approval of use of the church as a power base in society
f) hypocrisy of all christians
g) fact that there is no god as people think of 'him'
I hope that was civil enough for you, sean.
posted by norm at 1:44 PM on September 18, 2000
civil enough, norm.
as you say, there are different ways to read the Bible. we obviously read it differently.
it sounds like you come out of a bad religious background, including the posibility of 'spiritual abuse'. i'm truly sorry about that (and not in some condescending way, either. this is hard to communicate adequately in such an impersonal medium).
and you are right in 4 of your objections to Christianity (excepting b, f, and g). there are many ways Christianity and the church have failed and are failing. however, those failings don't change the facts that:
a) many Christians truly want to live Jesus' message (and even do, to some degree)
c) some pastors provide real servant-leadership
d) some Christians love minorities and women
e) some Christians act with integrity in the world from a proper connection with their faith community
f) hypocrisy is only when you are not what you claim to be, not when you fail to live up to your ideal and are honest about it.
points b) and g) are arguable.
your valid points do not disallow the possibility of intelligent Christian faith with integrity.
it seems to me, with the tack of your critique, that no one with some ethical ideals could fail to be indicted. then the only way to have integrity is to have no ethical ideals. apart from the religion question and the existence of external authority, is that what we want on a social level? i would say no.
please feel free to:
a) continue the dialogue
b) blow it off
c) continue via email
d) have the last word
it's your call.
posted by Sean Meade at 2:38 PM on September 18, 2000
as you say, there are different ways to read the Bible. we obviously read it differently.
it sounds like you come out of a bad religious background, including the posibility of 'spiritual abuse'. i'm truly sorry about that (and not in some condescending way, either. this is hard to communicate adequately in such an impersonal medium).
and you are right in 4 of your objections to Christianity (excepting b, f, and g). there are many ways Christianity and the church have failed and are failing. however, those failings don't change the facts that:
a) many Christians truly want to live Jesus' message (and even do, to some degree)
c) some pastors provide real servant-leadership
d) some Christians love minorities and women
e) some Christians act with integrity in the world from a proper connection with their faith community
f) hypocrisy is only when you are not what you claim to be, not when you fail to live up to your ideal and are honest about it.
points b) and g) are arguable.
your valid points do not disallow the possibility of intelligent Christian faith with integrity.
it seems to me, with the tack of your critique, that no one with some ethical ideals could fail to be indicted. then the only way to have integrity is to have no ethical ideals. apart from the religion question and the existence of external authority, is that what we want on a social level? i would say no.
please feel free to:
a) continue the dialogue
b) blow it off
c) continue via email
d) have the last word
it's your call.
posted by Sean Meade at 2:38 PM on September 18, 2000
Very interesting. I just wanted to contest two points of yours. Those being:
1. it seems to me, with the tack of your critique, that no one with some ethical ideals could fail to be indicted. then the only way to have integrity is to have no ethical ideals. . I sure don't know where you think I'm implying that. Everyone should have some ethics. Perhaps you are referring to my blanket criticism of christians as hypocrites? But, as Paul says, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god," n'est pas? Surely you aren't implying that once you're a christian you never "sin," are you?
2. You aren't serious in defending the canon, are you? Political manipulations of what you consider "scripture" were fast and furious. There is no way in hell (ha ha) that the council of Nicae of 315 was endowed by god with the divine knowledge that those epistles and gospels were the ones that were "god breathed" (I Tim, forgot the verse!) Of course, I don't blame you -- you probably have never heard of the council of Nicae. That never really came up in "bible study" for me either. I hadn't heard of it until college, and that made a bit of difference. Here's a dangerous thought -- replicate my learning of the early years of christianity. Learn about early christian sects, get deep into gnosticism, learn about what Paul was talking about in Galations, learn what the code is in Revelation, and see if you're still a christian as you now know the term. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And no fair getting all of your sources from your local Baptist Book Store. Go to a real library, and see if your "still small voice" isn't your own voice of self delusion aching for a simple way to explain why the world is so weird. Oh, and write me if you want. . . .
hobbs_nathan@hotmail.com
(sorry for hijacking the thread!)
posted by norm at 3:27 PM on September 18, 2000
1. it seems to me, with the tack of your critique, that no one with some ethical ideals could fail to be indicted. then the only way to have integrity is to have no ethical ideals. . I sure don't know where you think I'm implying that. Everyone should have some ethics. Perhaps you are referring to my blanket criticism of christians as hypocrites? But, as Paul says, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god," n'est pas? Surely you aren't implying that once you're a christian you never "sin," are you?
2. You aren't serious in defending the canon, are you? Political manipulations of what you consider "scripture" were fast and furious. There is no way in hell (ha ha) that the council of Nicae of 315 was endowed by god with the divine knowledge that those epistles and gospels were the ones that were "god breathed" (I Tim, forgot the verse!) Of course, I don't blame you -- you probably have never heard of the council of Nicae. That never really came up in "bible study" for me either. I hadn't heard of it until college, and that made a bit of difference. Here's a dangerous thought -- replicate my learning of the early years of christianity. Learn about early christian sects, get deep into gnosticism, learn about what Paul was talking about in Galations, learn what the code is in Revelation, and see if you're still a christian as you now know the term. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And no fair getting all of your sources from your local Baptist Book Store. Go to a real library, and see if your "still small voice" isn't your own voice of self delusion aching for a simple way to explain why the world is so weird. Oh, and write me if you want. . . .
hobbs_nathan@hotmail.com
(sorry for hijacking the thread!)
posted by norm at 3:27 PM on September 18, 2000
Heard of Ava Maria School of law since my roomate at Marquette was looking into law schools. (He ended up staying at Marquette). I see nothing wrong with presenting a little incentive to encourage students to go to one place over another. Hillsdale college is another that certainly doesn't make the top selection list even though that is the only school currently accepting no federal funding. Say what you will about the scandals. --And I thought I was the only Marquette alum to read MF.
posted by brent at 3:55 PM on September 18, 2000
posted by brent at 3:55 PM on September 18, 2000
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posted by jhiggy at 4:56 PM on September 17, 2000