Knowledge is power
May 6, 2004 5:06 PM Subscribe
Ever wondered about Islamic law? This site hosts a series of essays and papers on various areas by Mohammad H. Kamali and others on topics such as Freedom of Expression in Islam and critiques of contemporary attempts at huddud implementation. All nicely indepth and referenced, some good, some not so good, but all intriguing.
i'm reading the Unnatural Offenses thing--as i'm a liwat guy : >
what's zina?
posted by amberglow at 5:18 PM on May 6, 2004
what's zina?
posted by amberglow at 5:18 PM on May 6, 2004
John, would it surprise you that every single muslim group in the world would condemn the actions of that "tribal council" in that thread?
Amberglow - I think a pertinent thing when addressing sexual "offenses" is to look at the conditions required for execution (no pun intended) of the punishment and indeed the conviction.
4 witnesses. None of whom can be spying (as that invalidates their testimony) and no entrapment, or confession under no compulsion (this actually occured several times during the time of the Prophet (pbuh), people asked for punishment in this world rather than the next).
Kinda unfeasible unless the people in question are majorly disgusting - the witnesses need to see penetration..
If you look further on the site, the punishment for zina has a dispute as to whether it is hadd (prescribed) or ta'zir (discretionary). I'm in favour of the latter myself - ie the state decides accordant to the status of the society.
posted by Mossy at 5:43 PM on May 6, 2004
Amberglow - I think a pertinent thing when addressing sexual "offenses" is to look at the conditions required for execution (no pun intended) of the punishment and indeed the conviction.
4 witnesses. None of whom can be spying (as that invalidates their testimony) and no entrapment, or confession under no compulsion (this actually occured several times during the time of the Prophet (pbuh), people asked for punishment in this world rather than the next).
Kinda unfeasible unless the people in question are majorly disgusting - the witnesses need to see penetration..
If you look further on the site, the punishment for zina has a dispute as to whether it is hadd (prescribed) or ta'zir (discretionary). I'm in favour of the latter myself - ie the state decides accordant to the status of the society.
posted by Mossy at 5:43 PM on May 6, 2004
has anyone been killed for it in our time? There's been imprisonment in Egypt and other places, just on suspicion (that party cruise thing)
posted by amberglow at 5:50 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by amberglow at 5:50 PM on May 6, 2004
Considering the last vaguely Islamic Caliphate disappeared in 1924 (Ottoman), I doubt anyone has been prosecuted in accordance with Islamic law, even in countries that ostensibly claim to implement "Shariah"
If there's suspicion, you can't implement the penalty - there has to be clear proof of the type I outlined. This leads to some interesting things - for example if you accuse a woman of sleeping around without four witnesses (even three won't do), you're liable to get 80 lashes, unless you're the husband (in which case she isn't punished, but a child that occurs can not be attributed to you). I guess that would teach people to control their wagging tongues..
posted by Mossy at 5:59 PM on May 6, 2004
If there's suspicion, you can't implement the penalty - there has to be clear proof of the type I outlined. This leads to some interesting things - for example if you accuse a woman of sleeping around without four witnesses (even three won't do), you're liable to get 80 lashes, unless you're the husband (in which case she isn't punished, but a child that occurs can not be attributed to you). I guess that would teach people to control their wagging tongues..
posted by Mossy at 5:59 PM on May 6, 2004
Can I get this straight... Shariah law imprisons women who claim they've been raped, with three or fewer witnesses?
Shariah law sucks.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:12 PM on May 6, 2004
Shariah law sucks.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:12 PM on May 6, 2004
No, rape is classified under a different classification, it is not considered to be under "zina" as it is non-consensual and taking the rights of others and is thus subject to a different set of qualifiers.
Here is an article which includes a number of references to hadith on this matter in which the rapist was punished on the testimony of the woman alone. And another critiquing it as part of the law in Pakistan (hmm, I should post this in the other thread).
posted by Mossy at 6:21 PM on May 6, 2004
Here is an article which includes a number of references to hadith on this matter in which the rapist was punished on the testimony of the woman alone. And another critiquing it as part of the law in Pakistan (hmm, I should post this in the other thread).
posted by Mossy at 6:21 PM on May 6, 2004
Mossy, thanks for this, and your reasoned replies. Now, perhaps more than ever, we need this... rather than inflammatory, anecdotal evidence.
posted by stonerose at 6:27 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by stonerose at 6:27 PM on May 6, 2004
John, would it surprise you that every single muslim group in the world would condemn the actions of that "tribal council" in that thread?
Not a single extremist idiot to support them? Hmm... the burden of proof would be on you to establish that.
posted by Krrrlson at 6:43 PM on May 6, 2004
Not a single extremist idiot to support them? Hmm... the burden of proof would be on you to establish that.
posted by Krrrlson at 6:43 PM on May 6, 2004
Hey, I was using a rhetorical device ^_^
And actually, I can't possibly see how any extremist would condone rape as a retaliatory punishment, given that it is nowhere in the Qu'ran, hadith etc and they're very literal about that sort of thing.
There is in fact a section of the law that is based on the "eye for an eye" principle - qisas, but it most certainly doesn't extend to rape for a mere accusation of "dishonour".
Y'know, "extremists" would probably have each of the tribal council flogged for claiming fornication without sufficient proof and then execute the rapist in an extremely unpleasant manner. Deterrence. Mmm.
posted by Mossy at 6:53 PM on May 6, 2004
And actually, I can't possibly see how any extremist would condone rape as a retaliatory punishment, given that it is nowhere in the Qu'ran, hadith etc and they're very literal about that sort of thing.
There is in fact a section of the law that is based on the "eye for an eye" principle - qisas, but it most certainly doesn't extend to rape for a mere accusation of "dishonour".
Y'know, "extremists" would probably have each of the tribal council flogged for claiming fornication without sufficient proof and then execute the rapist in an extremely unpleasant manner. Deterrence. Mmm.
posted by Mossy at 6:53 PM on May 6, 2004
Good post, Mossy. Thanks.
posted by languagehat at 7:15 PM on May 6, 2004
posted by languagehat at 7:15 PM on May 6, 2004
I always understood that a lot of things that people (including Muslims) claim are Islamic law are practises that predate Islam, or developed independantly of it.
Eg female circumcision is practised by non-Muslims, is a very old practise, and is not required by Islamic law, but both defenders and critics of the practise will claim that somehow Islam requires it or sanctions it. If you look at the status and treatment of women in Pakistan, you will find that their sisters in rural Hindu areas suffer equally.
Thanks Mossy, really interesting/worthwhile post.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:50 PM on May 6, 2004
Eg female circumcision is practised by non-Muslims, is a very old practise, and is not required by Islamic law, but both defenders and critics of the practise will claim that somehow Islam requires it or sanctions it. If you look at the status and treatment of women in Pakistan, you will find that their sisters in rural Hindu areas suffer equally.
Thanks Mossy, really interesting/worthwhile post.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:50 PM on May 6, 2004
And actually, I can't possibly see how any extremist would condone rape as a retaliatory punishment, given that it is nowhere in the Qu'ran, hadith etc and they're very literal about that sort of thing.
I'm willing to bet that somewhere there's an extremist or two who do. As for the Qu'ran, please... the problem lies not in the text, but in those who (mis)interpret it to justify their ignoble views and behaviours. I'm sure there is nothing in the Qu'ran to justify 9/11 either, to reasonable folk. But the problem is never with the reasonable folk...
posted by Krrrlson at 10:28 PM on May 6, 2004
I'm willing to bet that somewhere there's an extremist or two who do. As for the Qu'ran, please... the problem lies not in the text, but in those who (mis)interpret it to justify their ignoble views and behaviours. I'm sure there is nothing in the Qu'ran to justify 9/11 either, to reasonable folk. But the problem is never with the reasonable folk...
posted by Krrrlson at 10:28 PM on May 6, 2004
Trust me, I've met my share of nutters ^_^
Ok, I'll insert a word: mainstream Islamic groups. To quote a friend, I'm sure there are those who worship crocodiles in some swamp somewhere..
posted by Mossy at 10:46 PM on May 6, 2004
Ok, I'll insert a word: mainstream Islamic groups. To quote a friend, I'm sure there are those who worship crocodiles in some swamp somewhere..
posted by Mossy at 10:46 PM on May 6, 2004
Very interesting, thanks.
When the Prophet (saw) says "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you" to the rape victim, do you think he's implying that she has committed a crime, or is it just a figure of speech?
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:54 AM on May 7, 2004
When the Prophet (saw) says "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you" to the rape victim, do you think he's implying that she has committed a crime, or is it just a figure of speech?
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:54 AM on May 7, 2004
Sister Mazhar is unfortunately paraphrasing a hadith rather than conveying it in full - what actually occured was that she wrongfully accused a man of raping her without evidence, but the one who had actually raped her stood up and admitted her, the hadith in full is as follows:
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:
"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (pbuh) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Muhajirun came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.
She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.
He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them." ~ Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366
As an aside, I don't think that particular narration is "sahih" (rigorously authentic - all oral traditions are subject to checks of how reliable they are..), but rather of "good" status, ie reasonably reliable (you can tell because hasan - reasonably well authenticated hadith - come in books called "sunan").
It's not a crime to be raped, but it can be to falsely accuse someone of something so despicable - the type of proof required has been debated and is what is behind the situation in Pakistan at the moment. Most jurists consider it a form of hirabah - violent/aggressive behaviour depriving someone else of their rights, whereas the pakistanis have strangely deemed it as part of zina - in which case the required "proof" is deemed to be higher, even though this hadith and others indicate only a single woman's testimony is required.
Interestingly, terrorism also falls under that classification according to some..
I would like to extend my apologies if I've said anything in error on this thread. I do not have a formal Islamic education, but do find the area interesting and hoped others would too.
Peace.
posted by Mossy at 11:42 AM on May 7, 2004
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:
"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (pbuh) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Muhajirun came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.
She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.
He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them." ~ Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366
As an aside, I don't think that particular narration is "sahih" (rigorously authentic - all oral traditions are subject to checks of how reliable they are..), but rather of "good" status, ie reasonably reliable (you can tell because hasan - reasonably well authenticated hadith - come in books called "sunan").
It's not a crime to be raped, but it can be to falsely accuse someone of something so despicable - the type of proof required has been debated and is what is behind the situation in Pakistan at the moment. Most jurists consider it a form of hirabah - violent/aggressive behaviour depriving someone else of their rights, whereas the pakistanis have strangely deemed it as part of zina - in which case the required "proof" is deemed to be higher, even though this hadith and others indicate only a single woman's testimony is required.
Interestingly, terrorism also falls under that classification according to some..
I would like to extend my apologies if I've said anything in error on this thread. I do not have a formal Islamic education, but do find the area interesting and hoped others would too.
Peace.
posted by Mossy at 11:42 AM on May 7, 2004
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
This glossary may help, as may good ol Wikipedia
There are some more texts on Islamic jurisprudence here which are fairly straightforward(ish) if anyone wants an overview.
If anyone has any queries, feel free to e-mail me and I'll do my best to answer in a non-ignorant fashion ^_^
posted by Mossy at 5:13 PM on May 6, 2004