Democracy...ummm - sometime ?
June 9, 2004 2:02 PM Subscribe
"No voting rights for YOU......boy!"- Florida's illegal purges of voter rolls to continue for 3rd national election? Election head resigns. While Florida refuses to release the "purge lists" to CNN, "The head of Florida's elections division resigned Monday amid reports he was feeling political heat over a push to purge thousands of suspected felons from the state's voter rolls." (Tallahassee Sun-Sentinel) " there has been little action (and worse, really) on Florida's agreement to reinstate illegally purged voters to Florida voting rolls that resulted from an NAACP lawsuit over the 2000 election ["Many voters said their votes didn't count or they were turned away from polls due to mistakes on voter lists, busy telephone lines at election headquarters, punch-card voting machine foul-ups and other problems...Statewide, the largest numbers of voting problems were found in precincts with high proportions of black and elderly voters." The NYT editorially acknowledged the scandal on February 15, 2004.]
On May 21, 2002, Ashcroft's Justice Department began a suit against Florida counties "for purging Black voters from voter rolls and other violations of civil rights" Now, four years after the 2000 election, illegally "purged" Florida voters will not be notified until it is "too late to have their rights restored for this election - or are turned away on Election Day", reports the Tampa Tribune. "The vast majority of them are black and would be likely to vote Democratic." It's difficult for convicted felons to regain the right to vote in Florida, but many on the "purge" lists were not (in 2000) and still are not felons at all. [ note : Greg Palast - busy of late - must be most credited with blowing this story wide open. See here here, here.....]
On May 21, 2002, Ashcroft's Justice Department began a suit against Florida counties "for purging Black voters from voter rolls and other violations of civil rights" Now, four years after the 2000 election, illegally "purged" Florida voters will not be notified until it is "too late to have their rights restored for this election - or are turned away on Election Day", reports the Tampa Tribune. "The vast majority of them are black and would be likely to vote Democratic." It's difficult for convicted felons to regain the right to vote in Florida, but many on the "purge" lists were not (in 2000) and still are not felons at all. [ note : Greg Palast - busy of late - must be most credited with blowing this story wide open. See here here, here.....]
heh. you're ready to run for the GOP in Mississippi, jfuller.
posted by matteo at 2:21 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by matteo at 2:21 PM on June 9, 2004
This sickens me. It adds up to - quite simply - a denial of the democratic rights of those least able to contest the injustice. I can't avoid concluding, on this, that Ashcroft - and Florida - have intentionally spiked the gears of justice and blocked redress.
This undercuts the moral authority of the US, in the eyes of those who are watching from all corners of the World :
That we no longer care for principles of Democracy, or even for the letter of it's laws. So we slide towards an institutionalized hypocrisy like that of the old Soviet Union, that menace which Ronald Reagan is held to have vanquished. But it was not vanquished, not utterly. It creeps back, now, to embed it's hooks and claws in the American political process.
posted by troutfishing at 2:22 PM on June 9, 2004
This undercuts the moral authority of the US, in the eyes of those who are watching from all corners of the World :
That we no longer care for principles of Democracy, or even for the letter of it's laws. So we slide towards an institutionalized hypocrisy like that of the old Soviet Union, that menace which Ronald Reagan is held to have vanquished. But it was not vanquished, not utterly. It creeps back, now, to embed it's hooks and claws in the American political process.
posted by troutfishing at 2:22 PM on June 9, 2004
This is an outrage, a lot worse then many of the other phony outrages that dominate the news. If it was White Seniors in FLA I'm sure we'd hear a lot more about it. Damn liberal media.
posted by chaz at 2:25 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by chaz at 2:25 PM on June 9, 2004
If it was White Seniors in FLA
yes! there's the highest percentage ever of Jewish supporters of Pat Buchanan down there (pdf link)! wacky!
Damn liberal media.
can't balme them. they're too busy genuflecting at St Ronald's weeklong funeral.
_________
Q - "What have the Republicans ever done for their black supporters?"
A - "They nominated 50% of their black supporters Supreme Court Justice. The other 50%, they named Secretary of State"
posted by matteo at 2:30 PM on June 9, 2004
yes! there's the highest percentage ever of Jewish supporters of Pat Buchanan down there (pdf link)! wacky!
Damn liberal media.
can't balme them. they're too busy genuflecting at St Ronald's weeklong funeral.
_________
Q - "What have the Republicans ever done for their black supporters?"
A - "They nominated 50% of their black supporters Supreme Court Justice. The other 50%, they named Secretary of State"
posted by matteo at 2:30 PM on June 9, 2004
I call BS on that. I used to live in Florida, and I never saw anyone running off black people at the polls. Give us a specific example if you are going to say things like that.
QED
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:32 PM on June 9, 2004
QED
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:32 PM on June 9, 2004
After what happened in 2000, should anyone in Florida be allowed to vote?
posted by Rob1855 at 2:44 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by Rob1855 at 2:44 PM on June 9, 2004
I'm guessing, especially from matteo's response, that jfuller is well aware that his inference is a fallacy?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:04 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:04 PM on June 9, 2004
why do convicted felons even lose the right to vote? thats probably the first problem
posted by Satapher at 3:29 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by Satapher at 3:29 PM on June 9, 2004
I think this was discussed before. But this varies by state in the US. Some states do not at all disenfranchise felons, some only while they're incarcerated, some only through incaceration and parole, and some forever.
The theory, I think, is that voting is a right that only arises by virtue of particpation in the social contract, and that felons have violated that contract.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:35 PM on June 9, 2004
The theory, I think, is that voting is a right that only arises by virtue of particpation in the social contract, and that felons have violated that contract.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:35 PM on June 9, 2004
"So we slide towards an institutionalized hypocrisy like that of the old Soviet Union"
America is the new Soviet Union.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:39 PM on June 9, 2004
America is the new Soviet Union.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:39 PM on June 9, 2004
Obligatory link [PDF] to the (entire) chapter in Palast's book, detailing Jeb and Diebold's voter purge.
posted by Blue Stone at 3:40 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by Blue Stone at 3:40 PM on June 9, 2004
Democracy just doesn't scale. Especially when you start deciding that arbitrary groups shouldn't be allowed to vote.
posted by reklaw at 3:40 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by reklaw at 3:40 PM on June 9, 2004
Huh. I always thought that felons were not allowed to vote, for life, anywhere in the states. Maybe that's the case where I grew up (Kansas) so I learned it that way (in school, not by being a felon, which I'm not).
Interestingly, if that's not how it is, then that means that felons with a burning desire to participate in the national election can do so by moving to a state that allows them to vote. I wonder how often that happens.
Anyway, Florida corruption or no (although I'm not disputing it), the idea of not allowing felons to vote has always bothered me. Such a system makes it easy to filter out many dissenters. Just make sure you convict all the troublemakers on some felony charge or other, and come the next election, they're out of the loop. And, even supposing no deliberate effort to do such a thing, it works anyway, gradually, as a filter built into our society, and I don't like that either. Why shouldn't felons be allowed to vote?
posted by bingo at 3:51 PM on June 9, 2004
Interestingly, if that's not how it is, then that means that felons with a burning desire to participate in the national election can do so by moving to a state that allows them to vote. I wonder how often that happens.
Anyway, Florida corruption or no (although I'm not disputing it), the idea of not allowing felons to vote has always bothered me. Such a system makes it easy to filter out many dissenters. Just make sure you convict all the troublemakers on some felony charge or other, and come the next election, they're out of the loop. And, even supposing no deliberate effort to do such a thing, it works anyway, gradually, as a filter built into our society, and I don't like that either. Why shouldn't felons be allowed to vote?
posted by bingo at 3:51 PM on June 9, 2004
I was reading about the guy who resigned yesterday, and while i admire him for acting on principle, it means there's one less principled person running Florida's voting system (which is a mess anyway). I'm torn between wishing he would have stayed and fought and realizing how shitty it must be down there.
posted by amberglow at 4:04 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by amberglow at 4:04 PM on June 9, 2004
I also think felons should be allowed to vote--i believe all adult citizens should be able to, no matter what they believe or what they've done, even if currently incarcerated. They're still part of our greater society.
posted by amberglow at 4:07 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by amberglow at 4:07 PM on June 9, 2004
What's incredible to me about this are the facts that
1) Both Florida and the Ashcroft Justice Dept. admitted that widespread abuses (not just illegal voter roll purges) happened in 2000.
2) Over 3 years later no redress has happened. Florida is in the process, in fact, of pulling the same stunts again the 2004 election ; the state is openly taking a crap on the spirit of Democracy.
3) Big media is for the most part ignoring the story.
And the upshot amounts to this :
Americans are being habituated to the idea that Democracy is a joke.
posted by troutfishing at 4:15 PM on June 9, 2004
1) Both Florida and the Ashcroft Justice Dept. admitted that widespread abuses (not just illegal voter roll purges) happened in 2000.
2) Over 3 years later no redress has happened. Florida is in the process, in fact, of pulling the same stunts again the 2004 election ; the state is openly taking a crap on the spirit of Democracy.
3) Big media is for the most part ignoring the story.
And the upshot amounts to this :
Americans are being habituated to the idea that Democracy is a joke.
posted by troutfishing at 4:15 PM on June 9, 2004
Why is this still a problem? Don't you guys have a Bill of Rights? (Rhetorical question..)
posted by dash_slot- at 4:16 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by dash_slot- at 4:16 PM on June 9, 2004
Here is a list of where felons can vote. Incidently, bingo, they CAN vote in Kansas...
posted by goneill at 4:37 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by goneill at 4:37 PM on June 9, 2004
I think this was discussed before. But this varies by state in the US. Some states do not at all disenfranchise felons, some only while they're incarcerated, some only through incaceration and parole, and some forever.
The theory, I think, is that voting is a right that only arises by virtue of particpation in the social contract, and that felons have violated that contract.
I doubt Rousseau's social contract comes into it. The states mostly likely to bar felons from voting permanently are typically found in the Deep South. Conversely, most European nations allow felons to vote, unless the felon had committed voter fraud. There's some really good work by sociologist Jeff Manza on the subject, but I'm not sure if his book has come out yet.
posted by jonp72 at 4:46 PM on June 9, 2004
The theory, I think, is that voting is a right that only arises by virtue of particpation in the social contract, and that felons have violated that contract.
I doubt Rousseau's social contract comes into it. The states mostly likely to bar felons from voting permanently are typically found in the Deep South. Conversely, most European nations allow felons to vote, unless the felon had committed voter fraud. There's some really good work by sociologist Jeff Manza on the subject, but I'm not sure if his book has come out yet.
posted by jonp72 at 4:46 PM on June 9, 2004
Actually, here's a good map (pdf file) about laws on felon disenfranchisement in the 50 states. I also recommend Chris Uggen's web site on felon disenfranchisement as well.
posted by jonp72 at 4:52 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by jonp72 at 4:52 PM on June 9, 2004
I think this was discussed before. But this varies by state in the US. Some states do not at all disenfranchise felons, some only while they're incarcerated, some only through incaceration and parole, and some forever.
That's odd. I can understand states having authority over voting regulations in state elections, but how can states decide who gets to vote in a national election? What's the legal reasoning?
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:45 PM on June 9, 2004
That's odd. I can understand states having authority over voting regulations in state elections, but how can states decide who gets to vote in a national election? What's the legal reasoning?
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:45 PM on June 9, 2004
States' rights. Apparently, your participation in federal elections happens at the pleasure of the state government.
posted by FormlessOne at 5:54 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by FormlessOne at 5:54 PM on June 9, 2004
ed - no, you don't. But it's been almost 120 years since the 1876 election - since then, much of the World has picked up Democracy's torch and has been striving to move past such crudely transparent perversions....
Except, it seems, in the US (and in a few other intransigent nations routinely dogged by the likes of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch).
Here, in the US, we have nothing to prove and so we just watch TV.
posted by troutfishing at 7:19 PM on June 9, 2004
Except, it seems, in the US (and in a few other intransigent nations routinely dogged by the likes of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch).
Here, in the US, we have nothing to prove and so we just watch TV.
posted by troutfishing at 7:19 PM on June 9, 2004
Oh - a typo : It's been almost 130 years.....
posted by troutfishing at 7:21 PM on June 9, 2004
posted by troutfishing at 7:21 PM on June 9, 2004
That's odd. I can understand states having authority over voting regulations in state elections, but how can states decide who gets to vote in a national election? What's the legal reasoning?
That's because there is no such thing as a "national election." Elections for members of congress or senators are for representatives of your state, and presidential elections are actually elections of state electors who then vote for the president.
posted by AstroGuy at 8:40 PM on June 9, 2004
That's because there is no such thing as a "national election." Elections for members of congress or senators are for representatives of your state, and presidential elections are actually elections of state electors who then vote for the president.
posted by AstroGuy at 8:40 PM on June 9, 2004
I was really quite stunned when I learned parts of the US deny felons the right to vote. It seems fundamentally flawed (since when did a great capitalist nation like the US start believing in "social contracts"? That door swings both ways.).
Felons are still citizens. Felons aren't denied the right to medical care. Felons aren't denied the right to legal representation. Felons can own land and property. Above all, people who have served time, paid their "debt to society", and have been released are owed a chance reintegrate into lawful society. How can anyone who has faith in true democracy, liberty and justice deny them the vote?
posted by Jimbob at 9:12 PM on June 9, 2004
Felons are still citizens. Felons aren't denied the right to medical care. Felons aren't denied the right to legal representation. Felons can own land and property. Above all, people who have served time, paid their "debt to society", and have been released are owed a chance reintegrate into lawful society. How can anyone who has faith in true democracy, liberty and justice deny them the vote?
posted by Jimbob at 9:12 PM on June 9, 2004
I bought Schlosser's Reefer Madness today.
Isn't marijuana possession a felony for you guys? What a great way to prevent voters from changing unjust laws that have harmed them - ensure that they're barred from voting.
(Would it have been a felony to have a racially mixed marriage in the old days?)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:37 PM on June 9, 2004
Isn't marijuana possession a felony for you guys? What a great way to prevent voters from changing unjust laws that have harmed them - ensure that they're barred from voting.
(Would it have been a felony to have a racially mixed marriage in the old days?)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:37 PM on June 9, 2004
After what happened in 2000, should anyone in Florida be allowed to vote?
Easy there :-)
Also, the FPP says the story is from the "Tallahassee Sun-Sentinel" when it's actually a story from an Orlando Sentinel reporter covering Tallahassee whose story was reprinted in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Troutfishing is now allowed to correct my next post about Massachusetts.
posted by stevis at 12:19 AM on June 10, 2004
Easy there :-)
Also, the FPP says the story is from the "Tallahassee Sun-Sentinel" when it's actually a story from an Orlando Sentinel reporter covering Tallahassee whose story was reprinted in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Troutfishing is now allowed to correct my next post about Massachusetts.
posted by stevis at 12:19 AM on June 10, 2004
A friend in the state of Florida was convicted of a felony (non-violent, for what it's worth), did his time and later successfully lobbied to have his right to vote reinstated, so it's not forever, necessarily. This all happened way before the 2000 voter purge, however.
posted by wsg at 2:10 AM on June 10, 2004
posted by wsg at 2:10 AM on June 10, 2004
Coincidentally, on the front page of the Orlando Sentinel today, there is an article about how the purges this time have to be "fair."
I think it's time for me to go back to New England. The only thing I'll miss here are the afternoon thunderstorms and the hurricanes.
posted by Beansidhe at 5:49 AM on June 10, 2004
I think it's time for me to go back to New England. The only thing I'll miss here are the afternoon thunderstorms and the hurricanes.
posted by Beansidhe at 5:49 AM on June 10, 2004
Jesus, this makes me angry. If it's not one thing it's another. I swear, I get so angry but I feel completely impotent to do anything. The republican re-do all the jerrymandering so almost no house seats are up for grabs anymore...they've given themselves a sure-fire majority for a long time....
Florida repeatedly (now) tries to disenfranchise people who probably vote Democratic.
The new Diebold voter systems are creating a way that makes it impossible to check with paper what the REAL outcome is, even after the CEO of Diebold himself says that he's "COMMITTED TO HELPING OHIO DELIVER ITS ELECTORAL VOTES TO THE PRESIDENT NEXT YEAR."
Jesus, what can I do about it? I live in California and if i write a letter, no one takes it seriously (those wacky Democratic Californians....) I've given money to MoveOn and Kerry's campaign. But I feel that all this stuff is so much bigger than I and I can't do anything about it.
posted by aacheson at 7:18 AM on June 10, 2004
Florida repeatedly (now) tries to disenfranchise people who probably vote Democratic.
The new Diebold voter systems are creating a way that makes it impossible to check with paper what the REAL outcome is, even after the CEO of Diebold himself says that he's "COMMITTED TO HELPING OHIO DELIVER ITS ELECTORAL VOTES TO THE PRESIDENT NEXT YEAR."
Jesus, what can I do about it? I live in California and if i write a letter, no one takes it seriously (those wacky Democratic Californians....) I've given money to MoveOn and Kerry's campaign. But I feel that all this stuff is so much bigger than I and I can't do anything about it.
posted by aacheson at 7:18 AM on June 10, 2004
How can anyone who has faith in true democracy, liberty and justice deny them the vote?
posted by Jimbob at 9:12 PM PST on June 9
Good point JimBob.
They can't is the answer.
Remember we're talking about "states rights" (code for guess what?) and voter disenfranchisement of what group (not felons but blacks who tend to overwhelmingly vote Democratic.)
And the picture of the current day Jim Crow South becomes clearer.
Same game, different methods and rules.
Anyone want to tell me I'm being unfair to the South about this?
Shall I explain the GOP "Southern Strategy" again?
Is anyone going to tell me that blacks are guilty of committing more felonies than any other group? Yeah, we all know they are convicted at a much higher rate but that does not mean black males actually commit more felonies.
posted by nofundy at 7:49 AM on June 10, 2004
posted by Jimbob at 9:12 PM PST on June 9
Good point JimBob.
They can't is the answer.
Remember we're talking about "states rights" (code for guess what?) and voter disenfranchisement of what group (not felons but blacks who tend to overwhelmingly vote Democratic.)
And the picture of the current day Jim Crow South becomes clearer.
Same game, different methods and rules.
Anyone want to tell me I'm being unfair to the South about this?
Shall I explain the GOP "Southern Strategy" again?
Is anyone going to tell me that blacks are guilty of committing more felonies than any other group? Yeah, we all know they are convicted at a much higher rate but that does not mean black males actually commit more felonies.
posted by nofundy at 7:49 AM on June 10, 2004
why do convicted felons even lose the right to vote?
Because they are convicted felons. They have forfeited their right to decide on social matters in a free society by disregarding society's laws. They have free will to break the law, and they bear personal responsibility for the consequences.
Americans are being habituated to the idea that Democracy is a joke.
The idea that felons deserve voting rights or handguns is a joke.
Two wolves and a lamb deciding on what to eat for dinner is democracy. It is mob rule, tyranny of the masses.
The United States is a Federal Representative Republic.
And if "democracy" is so great, then why have all of the liberal social engineering experiments been dictated from liberal-appointed supreme and other court justices? You can't have your unconstitutional totalitarian cake and complain about democracy too.
posted by hama7 at 9:34 AM on June 10, 2004
Because they are convicted felons. They have forfeited their right to decide on social matters in a free society by disregarding society's laws. They have free will to break the law, and they bear personal responsibility for the consequences.
Americans are being habituated to the idea that Democracy is a joke.
The idea that felons deserve voting rights or handguns is a joke.
Two wolves and a lamb deciding on what to eat for dinner is democracy. It is mob rule, tyranny of the masses.
The United States is a Federal Representative Republic.
And if "democracy" is so great, then why have all of the liberal social engineering experiments been dictated from liberal-appointed supreme and other court justices? You can't have your unconstitutional totalitarian cake and complain about democracy too.
posted by hama7 at 9:34 AM on June 10, 2004
how do we go about getting the UN to oversee elections in florida? i'm serious.
as a black male who spent the 1st 17 years of his life in florida, pretty much the only thing i have to say about florida is "fuck florida."
posted by lord_wolf at 10:47 AM on June 10, 2004
as a black male who spent the 1st 17 years of his life in florida, pretty much the only thing i have to say about florida is "fuck florida."
posted by lord_wolf at 10:47 AM on June 10, 2004
I can understand restricting felons presently serving time from voting. A person could grab a lot of votes by promising to pardon certain classes of crime like drug possesion. And you are already restricting their freedom of free association and travel. However once their debt has been paid voting rights should be returned.
This is the same type of disenfranchment that sees 18-20 year olds eligable for jury duty and the draft but unable to buy a beer. On average by the time they can vote about it they don't care anymore.
posted by Mitheral at 10:51 AM on June 10, 2004
This is the same type of disenfranchment that sees 18-20 year olds eligable for jury duty and the draft but unable to buy a beer. On average by the time they can vote about it they don't care anymore.
posted by Mitheral at 10:51 AM on June 10, 2004
lord_wolf - well, that was my laugh for the day. Thanks. You've got the right say it. Being neither black nor from Florida, I can't. But laugh..... I can do that.
XQUZYPHYR - Maybe hama7 is a Straussian.
posted by troutfishing at 12:34 PM on June 10, 2004
XQUZYPHYR - Maybe hama7 is a Straussian.
posted by troutfishing at 12:34 PM on June 10, 2004
Americans are being habituated to the idea that Democracy is a joke.
Mission accomplished.
posted by rushmc at 12:35 PM on June 10, 2004
Mission accomplished.
posted by rushmc at 12:35 PM on June 10, 2004
They have forfeited their right to decide on social matters in a free society by disregarding society's laws. They have free will to break the law, and they bear personal responsibility for the consequences.
Breaking a law is not an immoral act; it is merely an illegal one. It could well be argued, however, that denying an American citizen the right to vote is an immoral act.
posted by rushmc at 12:39 PM on June 10, 2004
Breaking a law is not an immoral act; it is merely an illegal one. It could well be argued, however, that denying an American citizen the right to vote is an immoral act.
posted by rushmc at 12:39 PM on June 10, 2004
I dunno. On purely abstract grounds, the idea that someone could so fundamentally violate the social contract such that they have abrogated their right to vote seems plausible to me. However, on practical grounds, I have so many problems with the idea that I am hostile to it. But the arguments here seem mostly that it's an invalid idea on its face.
I feel similarly about capital punishment. In the asbtract, the idea that a society could reasonably and justifiably decide to put someone to death seems plausible. In practice, not so much.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:28 PM on June 10, 2004
I feel similarly about capital punishment. In the asbtract, the idea that a society could reasonably and justifiably decide to put someone to death seems plausible. In practice, not so much.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:28 PM on June 10, 2004
But the fact that posession of pot can be considered a felony means our definitions are pretty messed up, and denying people the right to vote based on that is just plain dumb.
Besides, once you've paid your debt, there's no reason why you shouldn't have the right to participate in society.
And hama7 doesn't ceace to disappoint and show his true, anti-democratic colours yet again.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:18 PM on June 10, 2004
Besides, once you've paid your debt, there's no reason why you shouldn't have the right to participate in society.
And hama7 doesn't ceace to disappoint and show his true, anti-democratic colours yet again.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:18 PM on June 10, 2004
« Older Creature House Expressions | What a Racket Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Do we infer that the vast majority of Democrats are Black felons? I thought so.
posted by jfuller at 2:14 PM on June 9, 2004