Prohibition, as we suspected, is a failure.
June 23, 2004 10:02 AM Subscribe
More kids smoking marijuana than tobacco. A report by the CDC reports that more kids now report having smoked pot in the last thirty days than those that reported having smoked a cigarette, and in fact, tobacco usage is showing a steep decline while marijuana usage is showing a steady uptick. This item is just one of many interesting statistics contained within the Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance report, taken between February-December, 2003. The war on some drugs wages on... (via my friend C-Dawg)
Current cigarette usage summary here, current marijuana usage summary here
scarabic, is it progress when lawmakers fail to see the connections between a legally regulated drug, whose health-damaging usage has declined due to that regulation, and one whose availability, import/export and usage are completely unregulated and criminalized?
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:15 AM on June 23, 2004
scarabic, is it progress when lawmakers fail to see the connections between a legally regulated drug, whose health-damaging usage has declined due to that regulation, and one whose availability, import/export and usage are completely unregulated and criminalized?
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:15 AM on June 23, 2004
the question at this point is, do they roll those joints with big strong Iowa-farm-boy hands?
posted by matteo at 10:20 AM on June 23, 2004
posted by matteo at 10:20 AM on June 23, 2004
Well, that's because tobacco is harmful while marijuana isn't (or, at least, tobacco is much more harmful than marijuana can be). Marijuana is fun, tobacco kills.
The thrust of the article seems to be the whole legalisation-regulation-taxation bit, but I think that sort of misses the point. Tobacco smoking isn't just declining because kids can't buy it any more -- it's also the effort put into getting adults to quit, whether that's TV ads about cancer or whatever. Smoking is -- forgive me for putting it like this -- not cool any more. A child seems more likely to try to badger his parents and friends into quitting than to take up smoking himself nowadays. Marijuana, on the other hand, is cool as all get out.
The whole "we should legalise weed so we can stop kids doing it" bit is lost on me, I'm afraid -- we want to stop kids from smoking tobacco because it'll give them all sorts of health problems, but why would we be desperate to stop them from smoking cannabis? I guess the idea might appeal to someone more conservative (and less young) than me, though.
posted by reklaw at 10:23 AM on June 23, 2004
The thrust of the article seems to be the whole legalisation-regulation-taxation bit, but I think that sort of misses the point. Tobacco smoking isn't just declining because kids can't buy it any more -- it's also the effort put into getting adults to quit, whether that's TV ads about cancer or whatever. Smoking is -- forgive me for putting it like this -- not cool any more. A child seems more likely to try to badger his parents and friends into quitting than to take up smoking himself nowadays. Marijuana, on the other hand, is cool as all get out.
The whole "we should legalise weed so we can stop kids doing it" bit is lost on me, I'm afraid -- we want to stop kids from smoking tobacco because it'll give them all sorts of health problems, but why would we be desperate to stop them from smoking cannabis? I guess the idea might appeal to someone more conservative (and less young) than me, though.
posted by reklaw at 10:23 AM on June 23, 2004
Are there really that many kids that smoke pot but not cigarettes? Trying to remember back to my high school days (7-10 years ago), I'm having trouble thinking of anyone that smoked pot regularly that wasn't a cigarette smoker. Even since then, out of the hundreds of people I've met that were pot-users, I can only think of one that didn't smoke cigarettes, at least while they were stoned.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:26 AM on June 23, 2004
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:26 AM on June 23, 2004
the question at this point is, do they roll those joints with big strong Iowa-farm-boy hands?
While fucking horses, natch.
posted by jonmc at 10:28 AM on June 23, 2004
While fucking horses, natch.
posted by jonmc at 10:28 AM on June 23, 2004
I'm imagining those hands wrapped around a big bong, matteo, but I get your drift.
reklaw, my take on it is that if information about and availability of marijuana were mainstreamed as that of tobacco, there's at least a small chance that parents will be able to help their kids make an informed decision about whether or not to get high, without paranoia, without hysteria (I LEARNED FROM YOU, DAD!). Removing the taboo that makes the weed "cool as all get out" might, just might, be a step in the right direction.
And from my own experience, the most deleterious effect of weed can be summed up, as can most things, by a quote from Lord Samuel L. Jackson:
"Don't you know that shit robs you of your ambition?" Which has more ramifications health-wise to me than I care to admit right now.
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:30 AM on June 23, 2004
reklaw, my take on it is that if information about and availability of marijuana were mainstreamed as that of tobacco, there's at least a small chance that parents will be able to help their kids make an informed decision about whether or not to get high, without paranoia, without hysteria (I LEARNED FROM YOU, DAD!). Removing the taboo that makes the weed "cool as all get out" might, just might, be a step in the right direction.
And from my own experience, the most deleterious effect of weed can be summed up, as can most things, by a quote from Lord Samuel L. Jackson:
"Don't you know that shit robs you of your ambition?" Which has more ramifications health-wise to me than I care to admit right now.
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:30 AM on June 23, 2004
taken between February-December, 2003.
Note the following anecdote may show how these #'s may have been skewed with current events.
[bangs head] For a long period after 911 it was harder finding pot - because many people whom tried selling it to me where now asking if I would help them score it. Found and noted this as odd until realizing the boarder checks was more stringent. Add, coke was flowing easily during these periods but not pot[bangs head]. Now I'm not a drug dealer expert here but being active in a large city these things jump out at you & become common knowledge.
The war on drugs will be lost when your motto is saying “no” – saying “yes” I will keep my body clean & healthy seems more productive as a goal. As no was one of the first answers one learns which is a wrong: no mommy & daddy.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:31 AM on June 23, 2004
Note the following anecdote may show how these #'s may have been skewed with current events.
[bangs head] For a long period after 911 it was harder finding pot - because many people whom tried selling it to me where now asking if I would help them score it. Found and noted this as odd until realizing the boarder checks was more stringent. Add, coke was flowing easily during these periods but not pot[bangs head]. Now I'm not a drug dealer expert here but being active in a large city these things jump out at you & become common knowledge.
The war on drugs will be lost when your motto is saying “no” – saying “yes” I will keep my body clean & healthy seems more productive as a goal. As no was one of the first answers one learns which is a wrong: no mommy & daddy.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:31 AM on June 23, 2004
What scarabic said. Better weed than tobacco, for a million reasons.
And in my teens, there was plenty of pot, everywhere.
Then again, I was in Canada.
posted by chicobangs at 10:48 AM on June 23, 2004
And in my teens, there was plenty of pot, everywhere.
Then again, I was in Canada.
posted by chicobangs at 10:48 AM on June 23, 2004
I got addicted to tobacco by smoking joints.
Also, ihave had friends who smoked 10 joints+ per day, that claimed not to smoke cigarettes. How do you think they made the joints?
posted by dash_slot- at 10:48 AM on June 23, 2004
Also, i
posted by dash_slot- at 10:48 AM on June 23, 2004
"Don't you know that shit robs you of your ambition?"
not true
posted by matteo at 10:51 AM on June 23, 2004
not true
posted by matteo at 10:51 AM on June 23, 2004
And no one's noted that tobacco tastes nasty as hell when you bake it in brownies. (Or so I hear.)
posted by ChrisTN at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2004
posted by ChrisTN at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2004
""Don't you know that shit robs you of your ambition?" Which has more ramifications health-wise to me than I care to admit right now."
Counterpoint:
"Plenty of people use the stuff to, in Bob Marley's words, lively up themselves. Studies of ganja use by Jamaican farm workers in the 1970s found that quite heavy intake made no difference to their output. In Egypt, a professor of modern Arabic told me hashish has played a vital part in the country's political culture. Subversive jokes would bubble out of sessions round a water pipe, and because they had no individual author, no one would be held accountable."
Link
posted by Blue Stone at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2004
Counterpoint:
"Plenty of people use the stuff to, in Bob Marley's words, lively up themselves. Studies of ganja use by Jamaican farm workers in the 1970s found that quite heavy intake made no difference to their output. In Egypt, a professor of modern Arabic told me hashish has played a vital part in the country's political culture. Subversive jokes would bubble out of sessions round a water pipe, and because they had no individual author, no one would be held accountable."
Link
posted by Blue Stone at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2004
I wouldn't call an inherited leadership post ambitious, matteo. *runs*
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2004
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:55 AM on June 23, 2004
Subversive jokes would bubble out of sessions round a water pipe, and because they had no individual author, no one would be held accountable."
So what they're saying is that stoned people say shit that seems funny at the time, but nobody can remember who said what?
Whatta revelation.
posted by jonmc at 11:04 AM on June 23, 2004
So what they're saying is that stoned people say shit that seems funny at the time, but nobody can remember who said what?
Whatta revelation.
posted by jonmc at 11:04 AM on June 23, 2004
Wolfdaddy: Heh.
jon, the funny stuff is unattributable, but so is the revolution talk. That's way neater, especially in that context.
and (while I'm calling on y'all) -- dash_slot, if you're cutting your pot with tobacco, then it's not the pot that hooks you on cigs. Just making sure you're clear on that.
posted by chicobangs at 11:05 AM on June 23, 2004
jon, the funny stuff is unattributable, but so is the revolution talk. That's way neater, especially in that context.
and (while I'm calling on y'all) -- dash_slot, if you're cutting your pot with tobacco, then it's not the pot that hooks you on cigs. Just making sure you're clear on that.
posted by chicobangs at 11:05 AM on June 23, 2004
Could see this report reading truer - "A report by the CDC reports that more kids now report having smoked pot in the last thirty days than those that reported having drank alcohol."
Poor future teens as their population grows so are they considered “the worse."
posted by thomcatspike at 11:21 AM on June 23, 2004
Poor future teens as their population grows so are they considered “the worse."
posted by thomcatspike at 11:21 AM on June 23, 2004
Also, i have had friends who smoked 10 joints+ per day, that claimed not to smoke cigarettes. How do you think they made the joints?
Rolling papers?
posted by InfidelZombie at 11:23 AM on June 23, 2004
Rolling papers?
posted by InfidelZombie at 11:23 AM on June 23, 2004
The problem right now with marijuana is the kinds of people you need to know to get it. I wouldn't particularly care if my kids smoked weed every so often (if I had kids; spare me the "it's different when you have kids" bit, please), except that, in my experience, the types of people selling them the stuff are sometimes the types that would sell them other stuff just to make a buck. I'm talking mostly about meth, as it's cheap and plentiful and addictive and dangerous. On top of it, even a good kid will do stupid stuff when he's around a rough crowd (the least of which is probably smoking a cigarette). Sure, I've known plenty of perfectly nice people who sold small amounts, but the big fish are seldom the kinds of kids you'd take home to Mom.
If I could go down to the corner store and pick up an eighth, legally, it would be okay for my kid to steal some from my stash, the same way we stole Jack Daniels when we were kids. It's what kids do, and there's not much harm in it if they know the rules (don't drive drunk/high). They can nick some weed from dad and still be good kids, but it's much harder to be buying weed from bad kids and stay good.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:28 AM on June 23, 2004
If I could go down to the corner store and pick up an eighth, legally, it would be okay for my kid to steal some from my stash, the same way we stole Jack Daniels when we were kids. It's what kids do, and there's not much harm in it if they know the rules (don't drive drunk/high). They can nick some weed from dad and still be good kids, but it's much harder to be buying weed from bad kids and stay good.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:28 AM on June 23, 2004
I've had friends who didn't smoke cigarettes but did smoke pot. They were and are the weekend toker type. Then they'd do the school thing 5 days a week and on the weekend unwind with pot. Now they do the 9-5 thing for 5 days and unwind with pot. I also have a couple of friends who quit smoking but on the other hand never quit toking.
posted by substrate at 11:29 AM on June 23, 2004
posted by substrate at 11:29 AM on June 23, 2004
I'm not a "smoker," but in terms of health effects, "tobacco" v. "marijuana," as currently constituted in US culture, is simply not a fair fight.
*Obligatory link to John Jonik cartoon pointing out that ill effects ascribed to plant may actually be from toxic additives*
Heh. this one's good, too.
posted by soyjoy at 11:29 AM on June 23, 2004
*Obligatory link to John Jonik cartoon pointing out that ill effects ascribed to plant may actually be from toxic additives*
Heh. this one's good, too.
posted by soyjoy at 11:29 AM on June 23, 2004
Well, we've found the cause of childhood obesity now. We don't need to blame the soda companies or fast food, we can now declare that all the obese kids have the munchies from too much weed.
posted by benjh at 11:39 AM on June 23, 2004
posted by benjh at 11:39 AM on June 23, 2004
The research by the good fellows at CDC trudges forth.
also, while not a "kid" exactly, I don't nor have ever smoked cigarettes regularly.
Weed? that's another story.
posted by bob sarabia at 11:42 AM on June 23, 2004
also, while not a "kid" exactly, I don't nor have ever smoked cigarettes regularly.
Weed? that's another story.
posted by bob sarabia at 11:42 AM on June 23, 2004
dash-slot: Here in the US rolling spliffs containing pot and tobacco, as opposed to pure marijuana joints, is fairly rare in my experience.
posted by liam at 11:53 AM on June 23, 2004
posted by liam at 11:53 AM on June 23, 2004
Why would we be desperate to stop children from smoking cannabis?
Because it is a powerful hallucinogenic drug that unfailingly causes intense paranoia in approx. 30% of the people who smoke it. To these people, marijuana is a pretty horrific experience they wouldn't wish on their worst enemy let alone their child; to many it is far from the mildly pleasant buzz traditionally extolled by boomers and hippies.
posted by dydecker at 11:56 AM on June 23, 2004
Because it is a powerful hallucinogenic drug that unfailingly causes intense paranoia in approx. 30% of the people who smoke it. To these people, marijuana is a pretty horrific experience they wouldn't wish on their worst enemy let alone their child; to many it is far from the mildly pleasant buzz traditionally extolled by boomers and hippies.
posted by dydecker at 11:56 AM on June 23, 2004
well dydecker, i'm glad to see someone revealing marijuana for the terrible hazard it is. Not if you'll excuse me, i have to find my crackpipe.
posted by bob sarabia at 12:05 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by bob sarabia at 12:05 PM on June 23, 2004
dydecker, you've never actually tried marijuana, have you? I have never heard of or seen anyone who has described even their worst experiences on pot as "horrific."
I'm neither a boomer or a hippy (far from it on both counts) but can tell you that if 30% of -- I'm sorry, what study are you quoting with that figure? -- if 30% of anyone is having that bad of an experience, it's because it wasn't pot they were smoking.
Now, PCP (which lines up with your "symptoms" a lot more cleanly) is very similar in some ways to pot. you smoke it, it starts with P and has 3 letters... I could see those two getting mixed up.
posted by chicobangs at 12:12 PM on June 23, 2004
I'm neither a boomer or a hippy (far from it on both counts) but can tell you that if 30% of -- I'm sorry, what study are you quoting with that figure? -- if 30% of anyone is having that bad of an experience, it's because it wasn't pot they were smoking.
Now, PCP (which lines up with your "symptoms" a lot more cleanly) is very similar in some ways to pot. you smoke it, it starts with P and has 3 letters... I could see those two getting mixed up.
posted by chicobangs at 12:12 PM on June 23, 2004
and the intense paranoia has nothing to do with the fact that it's illegal right? I mean, I'd be paranoid too if I was doing something illegal. Wouldn't you?
posted by Dantien at 12:16 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by Dantien at 12:16 PM on June 23, 2004
However, if you do mix your pot and your PCP and take it to, say, a concert, it'd be nice if you informed the people that you're sharing your joint with that it's laced. Fucked my friend up big time.
(and yeah, it really was my friend. I wasn't even at that show)
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:18 PM on June 23, 2004
(and yeah, it really was my friend. I wasn't even at that show)
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:18 PM on June 23, 2004
chicobangs, some people can't handle pot. Why is that so difficult to understand? Some people can't handle booze or cocaine either--you never hear other doubting that what they drank was actually beer. "Oh, his eyes are popping out of his head and he's not making any sense! It can't have been the wine, musta been PCP!" Gimme a break.
posted by dydecker at 12:29 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by dydecker at 12:29 PM on June 23, 2004
Schizophrenia and other disorders that are exacrbated by marijuana use tend to appear in late adolescence. I'm on the record as saying that marijuana use is generally a non-issue, but it's definitely in one's best interest to leave it alone while you're still developing.
Of course, latent schizophrenics are a very small percentage of the teen population. But still, I don't know that increased marijuana usage among ALL high schoolers is something to shrug off.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:37 PM on June 23, 2004
Of course, latent schizophrenics are a very small percentage of the teen population. But still, I don't know that increased marijuana usage among ALL high schoolers is something to shrug off.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:37 PM on June 23, 2004
Because it is a powerful hallucinogenic drug that unfailingly causes intense paranoia in approx. 30% of the people who smoke it.
Not sure I buy the 30% figure, but sure, some people have bad experiences from time to time. And generally, when someone tries something that is new to them and doesn't like it, they can usually decide for themselves not to do it again. This has been my experience with Jagermeister, as well as with feta cheese and the new Coca-Cola C2. In none of these cases did I need the government to tell me right from wrong.
posted by spilon at 12:37 PM on June 23, 2004
Not sure I buy the 30% figure, but sure, some people have bad experiences from time to time. And generally, when someone tries something that is new to them and doesn't like it, they can usually decide for themselves not to do it again. This has been my experience with Jagermeister, as well as with feta cheese and the new Coca-Cola C2. In none of these cases did I need the government to tell me right from wrong.
posted by spilon at 12:37 PM on June 23, 2004
I'm not saying that some people can't handle pot and shouldn't use it. What I'm saying is that your alarmist tone and unattributed statistics don't line up with my (pretty wide-ranging, actually) experience.
Also, because of the fact that pot is currently outside the law, it's easier for someone to lace a joint with something that would give the user a really bad experience.
And you do get those same dangers with cocaine. Same reason. Booze, however, is regulated and the contents inspected before sealing and shipping to the consumer. Which makes it safer for everyone concerned.
You're making a great case for legalization, dydecker, better than any I currently could muster while I'm here at work.
posted by chicobangs at 12:51 PM on June 23, 2004
Also, because of the fact that pot is currently outside the law, it's easier for someone to lace a joint with something that would give the user a really bad experience.
And you do get those same dangers with cocaine. Same reason. Booze, however, is regulated and the contents inspected before sealing and shipping to the consumer. Which makes it safer for everyone concerned.
You're making a great case for legalization, dydecker, better than any I currently could muster while I'm here at work.
posted by chicobangs at 12:51 PM on June 23, 2004
Careful not to use up all your hyperbole right at the start, there, dydecker - you'll have nothing left to describe real drugs. I was really disappointed when I finally tried pot; after hearing years of hype like your comment, I had thought it must be a really powerful experience.
you never hear other doubting that what they drank was actually beer.
Sure you do. If someone is out at a club and starts acting completely smashed, all out of proportion to what they actually drank, people start wondering whether someone slipped them some GHB. The description you've given sounds all out of proportion to the normal effects of pot, so we wonder.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:56 PM on June 23, 2004
you never hear other doubting that what they drank was actually beer.
Sure you do. If someone is out at a club and starts acting completely smashed, all out of proportion to what they actually drank, people start wondering whether someone slipped them some GHB. The description you've given sounds all out of proportion to the normal effects of pot, so we wonder.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:56 PM on June 23, 2004
dydecker, I'll say it flat out: you're full of shit. Now, because it is impossible for me to prove a negative, let's put the onus where it belongs: you go find us some trustworthy documentation to support your loony assertion. Thanks.
Now, back in the land of reality, three things:
Smoking marijuana puts more tar per volume into your lungs than cigarettes. At the same time, one isn't inhaling the same volume, so overall you'd likely get less tar. Vapourization removes the tar risk, of course.
Teenaged marijuana users are at higher risk of developing schizophrenia. The risk is statistically significant. It is very much in a child's best interest to not smoke pot.
Legalization and regulated distribution of marijuana would result in considerable damage to organized crime1; would ensure that users are getting unadulterated product; would provide a lot of revenue to the government, which could then easily pay for extremely good education and rehabilitation programs; and would eliminate a lot the paranoia, insane imprisonment rates, incredible law enforcement costs, coolness factor, and other problems.
1 which is, imo, why legalization isn't happening. The organized crime gangs are not run by stupid people. They simply must be making considerable effort to ensure drugs remain illegal. Likewise, big pharmacy and big law enforcement also have a vested interest in preventing legalization. Our politicians are undoubtedly being influenced by these organization.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:03 PM on June 23, 2004
Now, back in the land of reality, three things:
1 which is, imo, why legalization isn't happening. The organized crime gangs are not run by stupid people. They simply must be making considerable effort to ensure drugs remain illegal. Likewise, big pharmacy and big law enforcement also have a vested interest in preventing legalization. Our politicians are undoubtedly being influenced by these organization.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:03 PM on June 23, 2004
All I have to say is: they're both stupid.
My drugs are from Japan, cost $100 on eBay and come with vibrating peripherals.
posted by kevspace at 1:03 PM on June 23, 2004
My drugs are from Japan, cost $100 on eBay and come with vibrating peripherals.
posted by kevspace at 1:03 PM on June 23, 2004
chicobangs, I am pro-legalization of all drugs. Harm is a different issue.
Mars Saxman, for me, marijuana truly is a very powerful experience. It has always driven me temporarily insane, much more so than other hallucinogens (LSD, Mushrooms).
I've also visited friends in the psych ward. Sorry if this causes cognitive dissonance among the pot lovers, but there were a lot of people there who had psychoses triggered by marijuana. Especially younger people.
Here is a first person description of what cannabis-induced psychosis feels like written by a young girl.
This is my experience. Compare and contrast with your own.
posted by dydecker at 1:39 PM on June 23, 2004
Mars Saxman, for me, marijuana truly is a very powerful experience. It has always driven me temporarily insane, much more so than other hallucinogens (LSD, Mushrooms).
I've also visited friends in the psych ward. Sorry if this causes cognitive dissonance among the pot lovers, but there were a lot of people there who had psychoses triggered by marijuana. Especially younger people.
Here is a first person description of what cannabis-induced psychosis feels like written by a young girl.
This is my experience. Compare and contrast with your own.
posted by dydecker at 1:39 PM on June 23, 2004
These Japanese drugs, kevspace ... they vibrate?
[/old saw]
[/pounce]
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:49 PM on June 23, 2004
[/old saw]
[/pounce]
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:49 PM on June 23, 2004
dash-slot: Here in the US rolling spliffs containing pot and tobacco, as opposed to pure marijuana joints, is fairly rare in my experience.
Think you're confusing smoking hash mixed with tobacco.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:51 PM on June 23, 2004
Think you're confusing smoking hash mixed with tobacco.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:51 PM on June 23, 2004
Speaking as a teen who smokes pot recreationally about once a month (but more often in the summer) I have enough knowledge to regulate my own experience. Generally noone I've been with has had any problems with paranoia. I have have felt paranoid and uncharacteristically 'dreamy' once from marijuana and I attribute the experience to the following reasons:
1) I was downtown, in public, during broad daylight, within a couple km of my father's office building.
2) The pot came from someone other than I usually buy it from. A real drug addict who's into much more than just pot; someone I don't even know.
3) We had no safe outlet in which to smoke up in the first place, so I felt like a fugitive.
It was foolish of me to buy and smoke pot without knowing where it came from or making sure there was nothing else in it. Nevertheless, were the drug legalized and its growing conditions monitored and controlled this experience could easily have been avoided.
Getting back on topic, the statistics in the article are completely unsurprising to me. I have maybe 3 friends who smoke tobacco, but most of my friends have tried marijuana at least once. Why is a complicated issue but it probably has a lot to do with the (Canadian) government openly stating that marijuana isn't the problem we once thought it was, and that steps should be made in the direction of legalization. Noone my age thinks it's a big deal anymore, and I tend to agree. I don't do it to be cool, to fit in, or because the PM does it. It's just usually a pleasant way to relax every once in a while.
So I guess my point is this: teenagers experiment and make mistakes. Then we learn from them. This is what the phase has always been about. These are our 'formative' years as we're always told, and there is little that can be done to sway the trend.
posted by Evstar at 1:52 PM on June 23, 2004
1) I was downtown, in public, during broad daylight, within a couple km of my father's office building.
2) The pot came from someone other than I usually buy it from. A real drug addict who's into much more than just pot; someone I don't even know.
3) We had no safe outlet in which to smoke up in the first place, so I felt like a fugitive.
It was foolish of me to buy and smoke pot without knowing where it came from or making sure there was nothing else in it. Nevertheless, were the drug legalized and its growing conditions monitored and controlled this experience could easily have been avoided.
Getting back on topic, the statistics in the article are completely unsurprising to me. I have maybe 3 friends who smoke tobacco, but most of my friends have tried marijuana at least once. Why is a complicated issue but it probably has a lot to do with the (Canadian) government openly stating that marijuana isn't the problem we once thought it was, and that steps should be made in the direction of legalization. Noone my age thinks it's a big deal anymore, and I tend to agree. I don't do it to be cool, to fit in, or because the PM does it. It's just usually a pleasant way to relax every once in a while.
So I guess my point is this: teenagers experiment and make mistakes. Then we learn from them. This is what the phase has always been about. These are our 'formative' years as we're always told, and there is little that can be done to sway the trend.
posted by Evstar at 1:52 PM on June 23, 2004
Mars Saxman, for me, marijuana truly is a very powerful experience.
I am willing to believe that there are more mysteries in biochemistry than are dreamt of in my philosophy, but the experience you describe is by no means normal. If you had said simply that "there are people who react very strongly to marijuana", that would have made an interesting side-note to the discussion; but you said "it is a powerful hallucinogenic drug", and for most users it simply isn't.
posted by Mars Saxman at 1:55 PM on June 23, 2004
I am willing to believe that there are more mysteries in biochemistry than are dreamt of in my philosophy, but the experience you describe is by no means normal. If you had said simply that "there are people who react very strongly to marijuana", that would have made an interesting side-note to the discussion; but you said "it is a powerful hallucinogenic drug", and for most users it simply isn't.
posted by Mars Saxman at 1:55 PM on June 23, 2004
No. Mixing hash or weed with tobacco is much more common in the UK.
posted by liam at 2:38 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by liam at 2:38 PM on June 23, 2004
I smoke about a pack a day when I can, and usually get high two or three times a day when I can (which is any time other than the summer, around here). Frankly, tobacco and marijuana are both enjoyable to smoke, albeit for different reasons. All this hand-wringing over either one is rather silly.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 2:54 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 2:54 PM on June 23, 2004
In defence of what dydecker's saying - and as is touched on in the article I linked to above - regarding "powerful" - smoking stong skunk is a lot different from your regular common-or-garden blow. And it depends how much you consume and in what form. I saw a whole house-full of people floored by a batch of particularly strong 'magic' muffins - many people had a really shit time, and vowed never to so much as look at the stuff again.
And there are people who can't handle even the mild stuff. The good thing about it is that it's easy enough for someone to realise it's not for them, and stay the heck away from it. I know people who made that choice - dope made them anxious - they didn't have a good time - so they never tried it again. And I eventually gave it up because such negative effects increased for me, after many pleasant and memorable times.
No drug, not caffeine, not aspirin, has no negative side. Marijuana is certainly not a drug without any bad side, and nobody's doing anyone any favours by glossing over the issues it has, whether they're for an undefined minority, or those that may affect the more typical user.
[dons flame-proof suit]
posted by Blue Stone at 3:04 PM on June 23, 2004
And there are people who can't handle even the mild stuff. The good thing about it is that it's easy enough for someone to realise it's not for them, and stay the heck away from it. I know people who made that choice - dope made them anxious - they didn't have a good time - so they never tried it again. And I eventually gave it up because such negative effects increased for me, after many pleasant and memorable times.
No drug, not caffeine, not aspirin, has no negative side. Marijuana is certainly not a drug without any bad side, and nobody's doing anyone any favours by glossing over the issues it has, whether they're for an undefined minority, or those that may affect the more typical user.
[dons flame-proof suit]
posted by Blue Stone at 3:04 PM on June 23, 2004
For the record, dydecker, my town is so boring that I estimate the pot usage figures averaged at least in the 60%+ range. In my last of high school, of the people in BC calc, 15/25 smoked pot. There was only one instance of hospitalization as a direct result of pot use - and remember, most of this shit's been through at least three or four people. Unlike beer, which is a commercial product and thus under FDA regulations, marijuna can be mixed with just about fucking anything and there's nobody stopping anyone from doing it. People who sell good pot do so only because they're looking for repeat customers - people who need some more crack money NOW tend to do whatever to whatever.
The paranoia symptom's real, I'll grant you - but it's useful. Stoned people usually stay put - they don't attempt to drive home as if they're just fine, and if they do, they're constantly on the look-out for cops, whereas most drunken people throw caution completely to the win. Paranoia can also be as funny as hell - observing someone who's stoned out his mind running from Samurai who are "hiding" is one of THE most enjoyable experiences you could possible imagine. Just roll with it - from my (limited) experiences with drug use even the side effects can be enjoyed.
posted by Veritron at 3:11 PM on June 23, 2004
The paranoia symptom's real, I'll grant you - but it's useful. Stoned people usually stay put - they don't attempt to drive home as if they're just fine, and if they do, they're constantly on the look-out for cops, whereas most drunken people throw caution completely to the win. Paranoia can also be as funny as hell - observing someone who's stoned out his mind running from Samurai who are "hiding" is one of THE most enjoyable experiences you could possible imagine. Just roll with it - from my (limited) experiences with drug use even the side effects can be enjoyed.
posted by Veritron at 3:11 PM on June 23, 2004
I am willing to believe that there are more mysteries in biochemistry than are dreamt of in my philosophy, but the experience you describe is by no means normal.
Well, I'd venture to say that ot's not exactly uncommon either. Pot in any dose larger than a couple of tokes makes me extremely paranoid unless it's used with alcohol. I'm not saying that this makes it the "demon weed" of popular mythology, but it ain't a Diet Pepsi, either.
The primary problem with most anti-drug propoganda is that it's exaggerations and distortions strain credibility by making claims that one joint dooms you to a life addiction or that LSD will make everyone jump out a window trying to fly. But that cuts both ways, it blows credibility to pretend there are no hazards in drug taking as well.
And FWIW, I'm in favor of legalizing pot and hash (although I'd leave cocaine, heroin and meth alone), just adding my 2 cents.
posted by jonmc at 3:15 PM on June 23, 2004
Well, I'd venture to say that ot's not exactly uncommon either. Pot in any dose larger than a couple of tokes makes me extremely paranoid unless it's used with alcohol. I'm not saying that this makes it the "demon weed" of popular mythology, but it ain't a Diet Pepsi, either.
The primary problem with most anti-drug propoganda is that it's exaggerations and distortions strain credibility by making claims that one joint dooms you to a life addiction or that LSD will make everyone jump out a window trying to fly. But that cuts both ways, it blows credibility to pretend there are no hazards in drug taking as well.
And FWIW, I'm in favor of legalizing pot and hash (although I'd leave cocaine, heroin and meth alone), just adding my 2 cents.
posted by jonmc at 3:15 PM on June 23, 2004
Here's a good vaporizer to remove that nasty tar 5ff was speaking of. best one i've used
posted by bob sarabia at 3:29 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by bob sarabia at 3:29 PM on June 23, 2004
I know people who if they ate a simple peanut, their throats would swell up to the point where they couldn't breathe and they would eventually die. Where is my War on Legumes?
posted by uftheory at 4:20 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by uftheory at 4:20 PM on June 23, 2004
remove the 'rebellion factor' and fewer kids will smoke weed. legislating against it only increases this factor.
no rebellious teen will smoke when its legal. 'cause it's not bad for you like cigs are.
uncleozzy, right on. Sanest thing i've heard in awhile.
posted by Miles Long at 4:28 PM on June 23, 2004
no rebellious teen will smoke when its legal. 'cause it's not bad for you like cigs are.
uncleozzy, right on. Sanest thing i've heard in awhile.
posted by Miles Long at 4:28 PM on June 23, 2004
dydecker: That story you linked to is not about psychosis. It's about an naive, obsessive girl who gets paranoid, and apparently doesn't have the maturity or guidance to see what she's gone through as anything other than a spell cast by the devil.
But I never felt quite normal again. It seemed like I had unlocked a secret, and having found the truth I could never forget about it. Doubt followed me for years. What if it wasn't just a drug-induced psychosis? What if that drug had simply enabled me to see the world as it really was? I went to doctors and counselors and nobody ever really explained what had happened to me. Nobody understood the gravity of that experience.
That's right. Too bad she didn't either. Too bad she refuses to make a distinction between mysticism and evil. Too bad she never quite got clear on the fact that her panic disorder and OCD were not brought on by pot (and no doctors told her that they were either, despite her apparent interest in believing it).
She does mention a moment when she supposedly considered slashing her wrists, but honestly, given her obvious non-pot-related problems and the fact that she admits that this was no more than a passing thought, it's much more likely that the pot, if anything, prevented her from acting on that idea. I have never heard of anyone even attempting to harm themselves while stoned. And my personal experience as well as my reading on the subject is not exactly light either.
Sure, if you are prone to paranoia even when sober, then pot may not be the best drug of choice for you. But toking up in a friendly, relaxed environment with people who you trust and who can put what's happening to you in terms that you can understand can make a big difference.
chicobangs: We should hang out and discuss this.
posted by bingo at 4:34 PM on June 23, 2004
But I never felt quite normal again. It seemed like I had unlocked a secret, and having found the truth I could never forget about it. Doubt followed me for years. What if it wasn't just a drug-induced psychosis? What if that drug had simply enabled me to see the world as it really was? I went to doctors and counselors and nobody ever really explained what had happened to me. Nobody understood the gravity of that experience.
That's right. Too bad she didn't either. Too bad she refuses to make a distinction between mysticism and evil. Too bad she never quite got clear on the fact that her panic disorder and OCD were not brought on by pot (and no doctors told her that they were either, despite her apparent interest in believing it).
She does mention a moment when she supposedly considered slashing her wrists, but honestly, given her obvious non-pot-related problems and the fact that she admits that this was no more than a passing thought, it's much more likely that the pot, if anything, prevented her from acting on that idea. I have never heard of anyone even attempting to harm themselves while stoned. And my personal experience as well as my reading on the subject is not exactly light either.
Sure, if you are prone to paranoia even when sober, then pot may not be the best drug of choice for you. But toking up in a friendly, relaxed environment with people who you trust and who can put what's happening to you in terms that you can understand can make a big difference.
chicobangs: We should hang out and discuss this.
posted by bingo at 4:34 PM on June 23, 2004
More kids smoking marijuana than tobacco.
Good.
LD50 for nicotine, orally: 50 mg/kg
Amount of nicotine in one cigarette: 9 mg
LD50 for cannabis: Not known, presumably comparable to butter.
posted by spazzm at 5:00 PM on June 23, 2004
Good.
LD50 for nicotine, orally: 50 mg/kg
Amount of nicotine in one cigarette: 9 mg
LD50 for cannabis: Not known, presumably comparable to butter.
posted by spazzm at 5:00 PM on June 23, 2004
hmm.
am I the only person on metafilter who doesn't do drugs?
/me downs a 2 litter bottle of diet soda.
fake sugar and caffeine is where it's at!
posted by Stynxno at 5:21 PM on June 23, 2004
am I the only person on metafilter who doesn't do drugs?
/me downs a 2 litter bottle of diet soda.
fake sugar and caffeine is where it's at!
posted by Stynxno at 5:21 PM on June 23, 2004
dydecker is mistakenly attributing to a drug the kinds of psychological disturbances that some people may or may not have, depending on where they lie on the very broad and fuzzy spectrum of 'normal' and 'abnormal' mental health.
You can break your brain, it is true, but only, I think, if it's fragile to begin with. It is up to the individual -- who one must assume is capable of taking responsibility for their decisions and self-aware enough to do so in an informed way -- to decide whether or not they are willing to take that risk.
Risky behaviour, where it does not by its nature also introduce danger to others, should not be legislated against.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:28 PM on June 23, 2004
You can break your brain, it is true, but only, I think, if it's fragile to begin with. It is up to the individual -- who one must assume is capable of taking responsibility for their decisions and self-aware enough to do so in an informed way -- to decide whether or not they are willing to take that risk.
Risky behaviour, where it does not by its nature also introduce danger to others, should not be legislated against.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:28 PM on June 23, 2004
Well, basically, dydecker, they're using very polite and scientific language to call you a lightweight and that you can't handle your highs.
Which is kinda missing the point. I don't believe in legislating against soft-drug use either, all I'm saying is that we lose credibility when we dismiss marijuana as "completely harmless" and risk-free. In the grand scheme of recreational drugs, it's pretty benign, but like I said before, it ain't tap water.
Paranoia can also be as funny as hell - observing someone who's stoned out his mind running from Samurai who are "hiding" is one of THE most enjoyable experiences you could possible imagine. Just roll with it - from my (limited) experiences with drug use even the side effects can be enjoyed.
Provided you're not the one in the grips of the paranoia. You get this years nomination for Mr. Compassion and Empathy, Veritron, congrats.
posted by jonmc at 5:37 PM on June 23, 2004
Which is kinda missing the point. I don't believe in legislating against soft-drug use either, all I'm saying is that we lose credibility when we dismiss marijuana as "completely harmless" and risk-free. In the grand scheme of recreational drugs, it's pretty benign, but like I said before, it ain't tap water.
Paranoia can also be as funny as hell - observing someone who's stoned out his mind running from Samurai who are "hiding" is one of THE most enjoyable experiences you could possible imagine. Just roll with it - from my (limited) experiences with drug use even the side effects can be enjoyed.
Provided you're not the one in the grips of the paranoia. You get this years nomination for Mr. Compassion and Empathy, Veritron, congrats.
posted by jonmc at 5:37 PM on June 23, 2004
I've personally known several people, ranging from late-teens to early-twenties, who used marijuana on a daily basis and have ended up having a psychotic episode. Some people alleviate depression with dope-smoking and others find depression is a result - we really don't know that much about it all in my opinion.
posted by Onanist at 6:15 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by Onanist at 6:15 PM on June 23, 2004
from first-hand experience, depression is a possible withdrawal symptom, depending on how much you smoke.
In the grand scheme of recreational drugs, it's pretty benign, but like I said before, it ain't tap water.
i don't think anyone saying it's harmless, but depending on where you live, it could definitely be less harmful than tap water.
we don't know much about the long-term deleterious effects of marijuana b/c it's illegal and impossible to research (did you know that marijuana is the only drug in the United States for which all privately-funded research is currently forbidden?)
unfortunately, we also don't know much yet about the long-term deleterious effects of adding rocket fuel to our groundwater, but nobody's going to jail for endangering future generations.
and, of course, nobody ever went to jail for 24 YEARS WITHOUT PAROLE for distributing tap water.
posted by mrgrimm at 6:48 PM on June 23, 2004
In the grand scheme of recreational drugs, it's pretty benign, but like I said before, it ain't tap water.
i don't think anyone saying it's harmless, but depending on where you live, it could definitely be less harmful than tap water.
we don't know much about the long-term deleterious effects of marijuana b/c it's illegal and impossible to research (did you know that marijuana is the only drug in the United States for which all privately-funded research is currently forbidden?)
unfortunately, we also don't know much yet about the long-term deleterious effects of adding rocket fuel to our groundwater, but nobody's going to jail for endangering future generations.
and, of course, nobody ever went to jail for 24 YEARS WITHOUT PAROLE for distributing tap water.
posted by mrgrimm at 6:48 PM on June 23, 2004
WolfDaddy - good post. I think there's been no progress on the policy front, nor is there likely to be. But I do anticipate a future where marijuana is as legal as pot, and, having used both, I consider the fomer less destructive than the latter. So, when I say "progress," I'm referring to where I see the culture leading things: away from cigarettes, and toward better acceptance of marijuana.
The report you link is cause for alarm from a purely legal standpoint. But from a cultrual, even moral standpoint, it's a world I like better than the 1950s, which I very broadly characterize as a battle of "chestertons make you feel better," versus, "that nigger weed'll kill ya."
Mind you, I'm known for quoting a comedian who said "smoking pot should not only be legal, it should be mandatory."
What reklaw said up top.
posted by scarabic at 7:35 PM on June 23, 2004
The report you link is cause for alarm from a purely legal standpoint. But from a cultrual, even moral standpoint, it's a world I like better than the 1950s, which I very broadly characterize as a battle of "chestertons make you feel better," versus, "that nigger weed'll kill ya."
Mind you, I'm known for quoting a comedian who said "smoking pot should not only be legal, it should be mandatory."
What reklaw said up top.
posted by scarabic at 7:35 PM on June 23, 2004
I've personally known several people, ranging from late-teens to early-twenties, who've never used marijuana on a daily basis and have ended up having a psychotic episode. Some people alleviate depression with dope-smoking and others find depression is a result - we really don't know that much about it all in my opinion.
posted by scarabic at 7:36 PM on June 23, 2004
posted by scarabic at 7:36 PM on June 23, 2004
But I do anticipate a future where marijuana is as legal as pot, and, having used both, I consider the fomer less destructive than the latter.
Comparing marijuana to pot? ::inhales:: Trippy.
posted by ChrisTN at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2004
Comparing marijuana to pot? ::inhales:: Trippy.
posted by ChrisTN at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2004
Mind you, I'm known for quoting a comedian who said "smoking pot should not only be legal, it should be mandatory."
It should certainly be mandatory, at least once, for people responsible developing narcotics legislation, so they can figure out once and for all that it's more benign than alcohol and should be treated appropriately. I know half-a-dozen borderline alcoholics who are having great trouble reducing their intake, many of whom have criminal convictions resulting from alcohol-related behaviour. But I know a dozen people who one day made the decision to give up pot, very easily, and have never looked back.
posted by Jimbob at 10:17 PM on June 23, 2004
It should certainly be mandatory, at least once, for people responsible developing narcotics legislation, so they can figure out once and for all that it's more benign than alcohol and should be treated appropriately. I know half-a-dozen borderline alcoholics who are having great trouble reducing their intake, many of whom have criminal convictions resulting from alcohol-related behaviour. But I know a dozen people who one day made the decision to give up pot, very easily, and have never looked back.
posted by Jimbob at 10:17 PM on June 23, 2004
am I the only person on metafilter who doesn't do drugs?
nope!
posted by mcsweetie at 9:10 AM on June 24, 2004
nope!
posted by mcsweetie at 9:10 AM on June 24, 2004
Where is my War on Legumes?
You don't have one? Man, in Canada it's really picking up the pace. There are schools and (child-focused) workplaces where peanut butter is completely disallowed. I fully anticipate that within my lifetime, peanuts and peanut butter will be a home-use-only product.
Kinda pisses me off in some ways, but given how many people are deadly allergic, it also makes some amount of compassionate sense.
...who used marijuana on a daily basis and have ended up having a psychotic episode
Let us not conflate abuse with use. There are people who have died from drinking too much water, ferchrissakes. Of course those people who abuse marijuana are going to suffer ill effects.
Much like alcohol, coca-cola, and carrots, those people who over-imbibe are harmed. That doesn't make alcohol, coca-cola, nor carrots a dangerous, to-be-feared product.
A Good Resource: Overgrow. It's a very comprehensive site with plenty of resources for anyone who wishes to get educated.
Also, Erowid is the best resource for information regarding all psychoactive drugs. It achieves a very good balance of pro and con effects, side-effects, personal experiences, etcetera; in addition to a lot of hard-core scientific research on stuff.
I find the hallucination reports fascinating. Certainly convinces me that I don't want to be playing with a lot of those drugs!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:20 AM on June 24, 2004
You don't have one? Man, in Canada it's really picking up the pace. There are schools and (child-focused) workplaces where peanut butter is completely disallowed. I fully anticipate that within my lifetime, peanuts and peanut butter will be a home-use-only product.
Kinda pisses me off in some ways, but given how many people are deadly allergic, it also makes some amount of compassionate sense.
...who used marijuana on a daily basis and have ended up having a psychotic episode
Let us not conflate abuse with use. There are people who have died from drinking too much water, ferchrissakes. Of course those people who abuse marijuana are going to suffer ill effects.
Much like alcohol, coca-cola, and carrots, those people who over-imbibe are harmed. That doesn't make alcohol, coca-cola, nor carrots a dangerous, to-be-feared product.
A Good Resource: Overgrow. It's a very comprehensive site with plenty of resources for anyone who wishes to get educated.
Also, Erowid is the best resource for information regarding all psychoactive drugs. It achieves a very good balance of pro and con effects, side-effects, personal experiences, etcetera; in addition to a lot of hard-core scientific research on stuff.
I find the hallucination reports fascinating. Certainly convinces me that I don't want to be playing with a lot of those drugs!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:20 AM on June 24, 2004
am I the only person on metafilter who doesn't do drugs?
Would this include:
caffeine -- counting various pops, coffees, candybars, etc?
alcohol -- including beer, ciders, wine, etc?
theobromine -- a cannabinoid in chocolate?
tryptophan -- a serotonin precursor found in turkey meat.
Etcetera.
In short, you can't claim to be drug-free. Everything you eat and drink affects your brain chemistry. It's just a matter of degree. You might be able to claim that you don't partake in noticeably effective psychoactives.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:28 AM on June 24, 2004
Would this include:
Etcetera.
In short, you can't claim to be drug-free. Everything you eat and drink affects your brain chemistry. It's just a matter of degree. You might be able to claim that you don't partake in noticeably effective psychoactives.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:28 AM on June 24, 2004
I keep hoping that one of the viruses that affects tobacco will mutate and wipe it out entirely if for no other reason than so I will not have to remove the dozens of cig butts from the front yard on a weekly basis. The other day some dumbfuck threw out a cigarette into a shrub bed as I was working in it. I hit the back of his car with a pretty good sized rock and I was really hoping he would stop, but he sped up. Oh well.
posted by bargle at 10:52 AM on June 24, 2004
posted by bargle at 10:52 AM on June 24, 2004
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posted by scarabic at 10:06 AM on June 23, 2004