In other news...
November 3, 2004 6:47 AM Subscribe
While you were re-electing a president:
Senator-elect Jim DeMint: Thinks that unwed pregnant women and gays are unfit to be schoolteachers.
Senator-elect Tom Coburn: Wants the death penalty for abortion doctors.
Senator-elect John Thune: Mr. School Prayer Amendment.
Voters in 11 states voted to ban same-sex marriage. The lowest margin was 57%-43%. The highest (Mississippi) was 86%-14%. Kentucky's also bans civil unions. That one was 75%-25%.
The Senate will likely be split 55-45 in favor of Republicans, creeping closer to a filibuster-proof supermajority. Meanwhile, 89% of these guys are older than 65.
Enjoy your tax cut, America. You're going to need it.
Senator-elect Jim DeMint: Thinks that unwed pregnant women and gays are unfit to be schoolteachers.
Senator-elect Tom Coburn: Wants the death penalty for abortion doctors.
Senator-elect John Thune: Mr. School Prayer Amendment.
Voters in 11 states voted to ban same-sex marriage. The lowest margin was 57%-43%. The highest (Mississippi) was 86%-14%. Kentucky's also bans civil unions. That one was 75%-25%.
The Senate will likely be split 55-45 in favor of Republicans, creeping closer to a filibuster-proof supermajority. Meanwhile, 89% of these guys are older than 65.
Enjoy your tax cut, America. You're going to need it.
Here's to splitting North America into three vertical strips.
posted by boost ventilator at 6:52 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by boost ventilator at 6:52 AM on November 3, 2004
Can someone please explain to me why we went to war to get the south to be part of the nation again? Cripes, talk about hindsight being 20/20.
posted by graventy at 6:53 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by graventy at 6:53 AM on November 3, 2004
Senator-elect Tom Coburn: Wants the death penalty for abortion doctors.
I'm surprised you're surprised about that? That's a common belief among most of my Republican friends. We're not kidding around when we say abortion is murder.
100,000 Iraqi war deaths vs 44,670,812 innocent children.
A lot of people have some asking of forgiveness to do...
posted by aaronshaf at 6:57 AM on November 3, 2004
I'm surprised you're surprised about that? That's a common belief among most of my Republican friends. We're not kidding around when we say abortion is murder.
100,000 Iraqi war deaths vs 44,670,812 innocent children.
A lot of people have some asking of forgiveness to do...
posted by aaronshaf at 6:57 AM on November 3, 2004
South Dakota and Oklahoma were never part of the Confederacy, graventy. You can't blame this on Dixie.
Of the 11 states referenced above, only six are southern. Two (Oregon and Michigan) were Kerry states.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:58 AM on November 3, 2004
Of the 11 states referenced above, only six are southern. Two (Oregon and Michigan) were Kerry states.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:58 AM on November 3, 2004
What I can't believe is that Bunning won re-election for governor in Kentucky. You really cannot run a worse campaign than he did...unless you're Alan Keyes, I suppose, but he never had a chance, the carpetbagger.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:05 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:05 AM on November 3, 2004
Get used to it - we just told the rest of the world that Bush has a mandate from the country to continue doing what he's doing. We liked it so much, we re-elected him. These Senators-elect simply represent the folks who backed Bush.
Gonna be fun watching foreign investors pull out.
posted by FormlessOne at 7:06 AM on November 3, 2004
Gonna be fun watching foreign investors pull out.
posted by FormlessOne at 7:06 AM on November 3, 2004
droob: fuck christians, jews and muslims, if you really want to be democratic (I don't include budhists but fuck them too if you think you have that much jam). As for the Americans, democratic or republican, they are all fucked now.
posted by acrobat at 7:08 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by acrobat at 7:08 AM on November 3, 2004
News flash: AMERICA HATES GAY PEOPLE.
Now now. I don't think they hate them so much as they still view them as different from themselves. In another generation this will no longer be an issue.
Death penalty for abortion doctors? Murder the murderers!! Hypocrisy anyone?
Folks, it is time for a viable 3rd party to enter the fray. It is time to break the stranglehold over government that the 2 party system has.
It is also time to start telling politicians to STFU about religion. You want to go to church, fine. Do it on your own time and keep it to yourself. The fact that the conservative and Republican party lines are becoming more associated with religion really disgust me.
That said, I really think Kerry was the wrong candidate for the DNC to offer up. I guess it was the best they could do at the moment.
This country needs new leaders. It needs for politicians to start putting the country before their fucking parties.
posted by a3matrix at 7:08 AM on November 3, 2004
Now now. I don't think they hate them so much as they still view them as different from themselves. In another generation this will no longer be an issue.
Death penalty for abortion doctors? Murder the murderers!! Hypocrisy anyone?
Folks, it is time for a viable 3rd party to enter the fray. It is time to break the stranglehold over government that the 2 party system has.
It is also time to start telling politicians to STFU about religion. You want to go to church, fine. Do it on your own time and keep it to yourself. The fact that the conservative and Republican party lines are becoming more associated with religion really disgust me.
That said, I really think Kerry was the wrong candidate for the DNC to offer up. I guess it was the best they could do at the moment.
This country needs new leaders. It needs for politicians to start putting the country before their fucking parties.
posted by a3matrix at 7:08 AM on November 3, 2004
Fuck christians. Fuck them and their backward minds.
War, bombing abortion clinics, and intolerance are not Christ-like. These are man-made inventions.
posted by glenwood at 7:10 AM on November 3, 2004
War, bombing abortion clinics, and intolerance are not Christ-like. These are man-made inventions.
posted by glenwood at 7:10 AM on November 3, 2004
100,000 Iraqi war deaths vs 44,670,812 innocent children.
That is a load off. I was worried about the killing in Iraq and the possibility of leaving soldiers behind, but now that I can use math to equate every death to 446.71 dead babies I feel much better now. Bring on the no fetus left behind act.
AMERICA HATES GAY PEOPLE.
*Unless they are confined to prime time television.
posted by boost ventilator at 7:10 AM on November 3, 2004
That is a load off. I was worried about the killing in Iraq and the possibility of leaving soldiers behind, but now that I can use math to equate every death to 446.71 dead babies I feel much better now. Bring on the no fetus left behind act.
AMERICA HATES GAY PEOPLE.
*Unless they are confined to prime time television.
posted by boost ventilator at 7:10 AM on November 3, 2004
That's a common belief among most of my Republican friends. We're not kidding around when we say abortion is murder.
Errr... and isn't that the whole point aaronshaf? That Christians who follow biblical teachings know that judgement belongs to The Lord, and not to Senator-elect Tom Coburn and ol' Sparky. The instructions to man seem pretty clear on this point.
posted by DrDoberman at 7:14 AM on November 3, 2004
Errr... and isn't that the whole point aaronshaf? That Christians who follow biblical teachings know that judgement belongs to The Lord, and not to Senator-elect Tom Coburn and ol' Sparky. The instructions to man seem pretty clear on this point.
posted by DrDoberman at 7:14 AM on November 3, 2004
Senator-elect Tom Coburn: Wants the death penalty for abortion doctors.
It came out in the campaign that he himself had performed abortions in his medical practice. And OK still voted him in.
In one of the debates, he answered a question about Social Security with a remark that African-Americans don't have to worry as much, because they're "genetically inclined to have shorter lifespans". And OK still voted him in.
DeMint said that he'd replaced the income tax with a national 23% sales tax. And SC still voted him in.
Bunning is said to be a dribble cup away from complete raving dementia. And KY still voted him in.
posted by gimonca at 7:19 AM on November 3, 2004
It came out in the campaign that he himself had performed abortions in his medical practice. And OK still voted him in.
In one of the debates, he answered a question about Social Security with a remark that African-Americans don't have to worry as much, because they're "genetically inclined to have shorter lifespans". And OK still voted him in.
DeMint said that he'd replaced the income tax with a national 23% sales tax. And SC still voted him in.
Bunning is said to be a dribble cup away from complete raving dementia. And KY still voted him in.
posted by gimonca at 7:19 AM on November 3, 2004
If it's true that a majority of Americans believe in the devil, it's amazing the Democrats got as many votes as they did.
posted by larry_darrell at 7:20 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by larry_darrell at 7:20 AM on November 3, 2004
winds of change in minnesota? we kicked ass for kerry yesterday.
steve soto on a night from hell:
"Just be happy with the monster you and the rest of the Cult have created at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue tonight. Because he's all yours."
posted by specialk420 at 7:21 AM on November 3, 2004
steve soto on a night from hell:
"Just be happy with the monster you and the rest of the Cult have created at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue tonight. Because he's all yours."
posted by specialk420 at 7:21 AM on November 3, 2004
In reference to:
"and someone fuck aaronshaf please"
"I was worried about the killing in Iraq and the possibility of leaving soldiers behind, but now that I can use math to equate every death to 446.71 dead babies I feel much better now."
It's amazing that no one ever actually argues against the idea that abortion is murder. Instead, "pro-choicers" launch ad-hominem attacks and brush such issues off as deliberate distractions from the "more important issue" of those who die in Iraq.
It would be nice if someone, anyone, would acknowledge that it's possible to have two, different, heartwrenching choices to make, and to simply have to vote against the more immediate crisis: that of innocent babies dying in unprecedented numbers.
Yes, many Christians, even those "crazy born again Christians" consider Iraq to be a problem. Look at this, for instance. But I'm willing to bet that a number of those who signed this document decided in the end to vote for Bush, simply because of the abortion crisis.
posted by superbird at 7:22 AM on November 3, 2004
"and someone fuck aaronshaf please"
"I was worried about the killing in Iraq and the possibility of leaving soldiers behind, but now that I can use math to equate every death to 446.71 dead babies I feel much better now."
It's amazing that no one ever actually argues against the idea that abortion is murder. Instead, "pro-choicers" launch ad-hominem attacks and brush such issues off as deliberate distractions from the "more important issue" of those who die in Iraq.
It would be nice if someone, anyone, would acknowledge that it's possible to have two, different, heartwrenching choices to make, and to simply have to vote against the more immediate crisis: that of innocent babies dying in unprecedented numbers.
Yes, many Christians, even those "crazy born again Christians" consider Iraq to be a problem. Look at this, for instance. But I'm willing to bet that a number of those who signed this document decided in the end to vote for Bush, simply because of the abortion crisis.
posted by superbird at 7:22 AM on November 3, 2004
So, can we all finally agree the country has been taken over by the christian fundies? I feel sick to death this morning and wonder what could have been done, if anything, to have changed the outcome.
I heard something last night that I had totally forgotten about but is proof how backward this country still is: Barack Obama will become only the third black senator since Reconstruction.
Becoming an ex-pat just keeps looking better and better these days.
posted by photoslob at 7:23 AM on November 3, 2004
I heard something last night that I had totally forgotten about but is proof how backward this country still is: Barack Obama will become only the third black senator since Reconstruction.
Becoming an ex-pat just keeps looking better and better these days.
posted by photoslob at 7:23 AM on November 3, 2004
DeMint never repeated his homophobic stupidity, but you can bet it helped him more than hurt him. There seems to be a deep channel of flat-out hatred of gays and lesbians around here in South Carolina.
I wish y'all could have seen the TV ads in the Tenenbaum/DeMint race. DeMint does affable and folksy real well. And the ads that weren't "I'm a regular guy, just wiser, smarter, better groomed and more Senatorial than you" were slamming Tenenbaum by showing Hilary Clinton and Ted Kennedy -- "she's one of THEM, you know."
(To be fair, Tenenbaum's campaign aired ads that justifiably lambasted DeMint's poor attendance and voting records in the state assembly, but her harping on DeMint's proposed 23% sales tax never explained that it was in lieu of income tax.)
posted by alumshubby at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2004
I wish y'all could have seen the TV ads in the Tenenbaum/DeMint race. DeMint does affable and folksy real well. And the ads that weren't "I'm a regular guy, just wiser, smarter, better groomed and more Senatorial than you" were slamming Tenenbaum by showing Hilary Clinton and Ted Kennedy -- "she's one of THEM, you know."
(To be fair, Tenenbaum's campaign aired ads that justifiably lambasted DeMint's poor attendance and voting records in the state assembly, but her harping on DeMint's proposed 23% sales tax never explained that it was in lieu of income tax.)
posted by alumshubby at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2004
DrDoberman, I think a better translation of the text in question is "you shall not murder."
As I quoted yesterday:
"[S]ince the wrath of Jesus will consign to everlasting punishment all who do not obey the gospel, therefore we must give place to wrath, and love our enemies. Since Christ alone, crucified-for-sinners, has the final right to kill his religious enemies, therefore Christianity will spread not by killing for Christ, but by dying with Christ - that others might live. The final triumph of the crucified Christ is a call to patient suffering, not political success." (>>)
While that certainly means the spread of the Christian faith is not to be carried out by means of killing people, let me add to that another, (qualifying) quote:
"[C]apital punishment is never specifically removed or replaced in the Bible. While some would argue that the New Testament ethic replaces the Old Testament ethic, there is no instance in which a replacement ethic is introduced. As we have already seen, Jesus and the disciples never disturb the Old Testament standard of capital punishment. The Apostle Paul teaches that we are to live by grace with one another, but also teaches that we are to obey human government that bears the sword. Capital punishment is taught in both the Old Testament and the New Testament." (>>)
Example: I wouldn't spread Christianity by killing Christ-denying Jews and Muslims, because Jesus is the end and ground of "tolerance". I would support capital punishment for those who kill innocent people, because following Jesus means pursuing civil order and justice, especially for the helpless.
Yes, ultimately, retribution belongs to the Lord (in the form of hell!).
posted by aaronshaf at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2004
As I quoted yesterday:
"[S]ince the wrath of Jesus will consign to everlasting punishment all who do not obey the gospel, therefore we must give place to wrath, and love our enemies. Since Christ alone, crucified-for-sinners, has the final right to kill his religious enemies, therefore Christianity will spread not by killing for Christ, but by dying with Christ - that others might live. The final triumph of the crucified Christ is a call to patient suffering, not political success." (>>)
While that certainly means the spread of the Christian faith is not to be carried out by means of killing people, let me add to that another, (qualifying) quote:
"[C]apital punishment is never specifically removed or replaced in the Bible. While some would argue that the New Testament ethic replaces the Old Testament ethic, there is no instance in which a replacement ethic is introduced. As we have already seen, Jesus and the disciples never disturb the Old Testament standard of capital punishment. The Apostle Paul teaches that we are to live by grace with one another, but also teaches that we are to obey human government that bears the sword. Capital punishment is taught in both the Old Testament and the New Testament." (>>)
Example: I wouldn't spread Christianity by killing Christ-denying Jews and Muslims, because Jesus is the end and ground of "tolerance". I would support capital punishment for those who kill innocent people, because following Jesus means pursuing civil order and justice, especially for the helpless.
Yes, ultimately, retribution belongs to the Lord (in the form of hell!).
posted by aaronshaf at 7:28 AM on November 3, 2004
"what is wrong with so many americans?" - specialk, it's called advertising, corporate concentration of the media, the rise of Christian right broadcasting networks, and also the massed power of belief, on the part of Americans who belief that they somehow own God, that they are commanded to turn American into a theocracy.
"Fuck christians." - you really don't get it, do you.
America is largely Christian and so you just insulted most of the country which actually right now needs a whole lot of persuading that :
1) the GOP doesn't "own" God
2) the Christian Right's "religious theocracy" push amounts to a new kind of religious blasphemy which seeks to set humans up, as politicians, like little Gods (this is explicitly talked of in far-right Christian theology, that Christian-right political leaders can rule AS god, to exert "Dominion") who assert that they are channeling the voice of God :
So - in terms of Christian Protestant tradition (Catholic tradition is yet another issue altogether) every Christian-right Congressman and Senator is, essentially, claiming to have the clarity or the vision, and certainly the divine mandate, of a prophet.
So : now 50+ Republican senators claiming the authority of, say, a John the Baptist.
In terms of overall Christian tradition - and especially in light of the New Testament's numerous warnings against latter-day "false prophets" - this amounts to a new type of idolatry.
In other words - in Christian tradition, those claiming most loudly to speak for God, and especially insofar as they talk and act in hateful and violent ways (as do the leaders of the religious right in America), almost certainly speak not for God but for other voices - whether of this world or of another.
America, say hello to your new theocracy - which crept in during broad daylight, during your moment of inattention.
And now, a quick word from the book of Matthew :
"Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
posted by troutfishing at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2004
"Fuck christians." - you really don't get it, do you.
America is largely Christian and so you just insulted most of the country which actually right now needs a whole lot of persuading that :
1) the GOP doesn't "own" God
2) the Christian Right's "religious theocracy" push amounts to a new kind of religious blasphemy which seeks to set humans up, as politicians, like little Gods (this is explicitly talked of in far-right Christian theology, that Christian-right political leaders can rule AS god, to exert "Dominion") who assert that they are channeling the voice of God :
So - in terms of Christian Protestant tradition (Catholic tradition is yet another issue altogether) every Christian-right Congressman and Senator is, essentially, claiming to have the clarity or the vision, and certainly the divine mandate, of a prophet.
So : now 50+ Republican senators claiming the authority of, say, a John the Baptist.
In terms of overall Christian tradition - and especially in light of the New Testament's numerous warnings against latter-day "false prophets" - this amounts to a new type of idolatry.
In other words - in Christian tradition, those claiming most loudly to speak for God, and especially insofar as they talk and act in hateful and violent ways (as do the leaders of the religious right in America), almost certainly speak not for God but for other voices - whether of this world or of another.
America, say hello to your new theocracy - which crept in during broad daylight, during your moment of inattention.
And now, a quick word from the book of Matthew :
"Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
posted by troutfishing at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2004
i'm just so heartbroken this morning i can hardly stand it.
posted by glenwood at 7:33 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by glenwood at 7:33 AM on November 3, 2004
thank you aaronshaf, i'm glad i reloaded or i would have echoed the statement above.
shortly after delivering the 10 commandments, moses was forced to execute thousands for their promiscuity, lascivious behavior and idol worship.
on preview, i don't like bush either (Buchanan '08!) but watching all of your sniveling is so rewarding.
posted by brock at 7:33 AM on November 3, 2004
shortly after delivering the 10 commandments, moses was forced to execute thousands for their promiscuity, lascivious behavior and idol worship.
on preview, i don't like bush either (Buchanan '08!) but watching all of your sniveling is so rewarding.
posted by brock at 7:33 AM on November 3, 2004
100,000 Iraqi war deaths vs 44,670,812 innocent children
This comparison boggles my mind.
posted by dig_duggler at 7:34 AM on November 3, 2004
This comparison boggles my mind.
posted by dig_duggler at 7:34 AM on November 3, 2004
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
BUSH WINS
THREE POINT FIVE MILLION
MOST POPULAR VOTE FOR US PRESIDENT IN HISTORY
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:36 AM on November 3, 2004
BUSH WINS
THREE POINT FIVE MILLION
MOST POPULAR VOTE FOR US PRESIDENT IN HISTORY
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:36 AM on November 3, 2004
aaronshaf:
Judge not lest ye be judged.- Matthew 7:1
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Lk. 18.10-14 Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
-Matthew 6:5-7
Jesus loves you, aaronshaf. The rest of us just think your full of crap.
posted by jonmc at 7:37 AM on November 3, 2004
Judge not lest ye be judged.- Matthew 7:1
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Lk. 18.10-14 Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
-Matthew 6:5-7
Jesus loves you, aaronshaf. The rest of us just think your full of crap.
posted by jonmc at 7:37 AM on November 3, 2004
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matthew 7)
posted by aaronshaf at 7:45 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by aaronshaf at 7:45 AM on November 3, 2004
aaronshaf - you tipped your hand a little overmuch there, I think. I judge your "Leadership University" site - which you linked to above - by it's link recommendations and - should you claim that you or your site speaks the "true" voice of Christianity....
I shall say"get thee hence, Satan"
Christians have held, down the millennia, widely divergent ideas of how Christian faith might best embody and express the message of the Gospels, and your "Apologetics" are ranged against a nearly infinite constellation of different apologetics, some far more learned and closely reasoned.
So - based on the hateful speech which issues from the mouths of the political leaders whose tendency you seem to support, I say that you follow leadership which is very, very far from being Godly.
Ye shall know them by their fruits, and what have the fruits of four years of George W. Bush's leadership given us?
War, lies, indebtedness, and hatred.
Ye shall know them by their fruits - and this fruit you hold up for the admiration of all is strange, rotten fruit that is most unholy.
posted by troutfishing at 7:47 AM on November 3, 2004
I shall say
Christians have held, down the millennia, widely divergent ideas of how Christian faith might best embody and express the message of the Gospels, and your "Apologetics" are ranged against a nearly infinite constellation of different apologetics, some far more learned and closely reasoned.
So - based on the hateful speech which issues from the mouths of the political leaders whose tendency you seem to support, I say that you follow leadership which is very, very far from being Godly.
Ye shall know them by their fruits, and what have the fruits of four years of George W. Bush's leadership given us?
War, lies, indebtedness, and hatred.
Ye shall know them by their fruits - and this fruit you hold up for the admiration of all is strange, rotten fruit that is most unholy.
posted by troutfishing at 7:47 AM on November 3, 2004
specialk420 is right --Kerry actually had coattails in Minnesota. Minnesota DFL (= Democrats) picked up a big fistful of seats in our state legislature. So, all the work in the "ground game" that people did up here actually paid off some.
posted by gimonca at 7:52 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by gimonca at 7:52 AM on November 3, 2004
Fuck christians. Fuck them and their backward minds.
... And you people wonder why you lost ...
posted by marcusb at 7:54 AM on November 3, 2004
... And you people wonder why you lost ...
posted by marcusb at 7:54 AM on November 3, 2004
Instead, "pro-choicers" launch ad-hominem attacks and brush such issues off as deliberate distractions from the "more important issue" of those who die in Iraq.
Excuse me, but I prefer the term "anti-life" when I am being judged from above. The only choice I will evoke is to not debate what constitutes unlawful death in the US with someone that has an unfair inside connection to a higher being. As soon as I can channel Bill Hicks, I will give you a call.
posted by boost ventilator at 8:00 AM on November 3, 2004
Excuse me, but I prefer the term "anti-life" when I am being judged from above. The only choice I will evoke is to not debate what constitutes unlawful death in the US with someone that has an unfair inside connection to a higher being. As soon as I can channel Bill Hicks, I will give you a call.
posted by boost ventilator at 8:00 AM on November 3, 2004
Fuck christians. Fuck them and their backward minds.
... And you people wonder why you lost ...
Good Lord, is this what we have to look forward to over the next four years? More demonizing, recriminations, hatred and anger?
To my friends on the Right: you won! Enjoy it, but don't come around here twisting the knife and then feigning indignation that people are pissed off by it.
To my friends on Left: get over the anger and divisiveness. Anyone but Bush (tm) doesn't work. We tried it for two years, and you know what? We lost ground. Take a look at the electoral map. Regroup, and come up with something positive and inclusive. That's the only way to defend against being marginalized.
In the meantime, it's been a long 18 months for me... I think I need to forget the politics for a month or two, maybe read some poetry and refocus on some other pursuits. See you all in the New Year.... maybe.
posted by psmealey at 8:07 AM on November 3, 2004
... And you people wonder why you lost ...
Good Lord, is this what we have to look forward to over the next four years? More demonizing, recriminations, hatred and anger?
To my friends on the Right: you won! Enjoy it, but don't come around here twisting the knife and then feigning indignation that people are pissed off by it.
To my friends on Left: get over the anger and divisiveness. Anyone but Bush (tm) doesn't work. We tried it for two years, and you know what? We lost ground. Take a look at the electoral map. Regroup, and come up with something positive and inclusive. That's the only way to defend against being marginalized.
In the meantime, it's been a long 18 months for me... I think I need to forget the politics for a month or two, maybe read some poetry and refocus on some other pursuits. See you all in the New Year.... maybe.
posted by psmealey at 8:07 AM on November 3, 2004
DrDoberman, I think a better translation of the text in question is "you shall not murder."
Better for whom aaronshaf? Rev 22:18-21
posted by DrDoberman at 8:11 AM on November 3, 2004
Better for whom aaronshaf? Rev 22:18-21
posted by DrDoberman at 8:11 AM on November 3, 2004
psmealy--
good lookin out withteh voice of reason...seriously, i think that is right...but i dispair
Fundies:
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137:8-9)"
so when god tells you to, killing babies is FUN!
so as an abortion doctor, you should just say patients are 'whores of babylon"..and you are doing the lord's work
posted by das_2099 at 8:12 AM on November 3, 2004
good lookin out withteh voice of reason...seriously, i think that is right...but i dispair
Fundies:
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137:8-9)"
so when god tells you to, killing babies is FUN!
so as an abortion doctor, you should just say patients are 'whores of babylon"..and you are doing the lord's work
posted by das_2099 at 8:12 AM on November 3, 2004
Enough already with bible quoting! Bye bye America we knew. And all you right wingers can cum in your pants now. You've won the land of the feared and fearful. Congrats!
posted by acrobat at 8:14 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by acrobat at 8:14 AM on November 3, 2004
By the way, Kerry has conceeded
posted by dodgygeezer at 8:17 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by dodgygeezer at 8:17 AM on November 3, 2004
To my friends on Left: get over the anger and divisiveness. Anyone but Bush (tm) doesn't work.
What a thing to realize on November 3rd.
posted by David Dark at 8:25 AM on November 3, 2004
What a thing to realize on November 3rd.
posted by David Dark at 8:25 AM on November 3, 2004
btw, indeed.
the gay-marriage stuff pisses me off as much as the rest of you, but then i realize that it's much easier to move from state to state than it is from country to country (or at least from U.S.A. to other country).
i never thought i'd be glad that the Constitution is so hard to change.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2004
the gay-marriage stuff pisses me off as much as the rest of you, but then i realize that it's much easier to move from state to state than it is from country to country (or at least from U.S.A. to other country).
i never thought i'd be glad that the Constitution is so hard to change.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2004
Anyone but Bush (tm) should have worked. honestly. to me, the vote was a vote on the war, and that's the way it went. now i certainly wish i had voted for Kerry, though (safe state).
posted by mrgrimm at 8:33 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by mrgrimm at 8:33 AM on November 3, 2004
Can anyone tell my why Fox and MSNBC are showing 269 to 248 when everyone else is showing 254 to 252?
posted by Summer at 8:35 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by Summer at 8:35 AM on November 3, 2004
at which point should we cease with the biblical quotes and start in with the handmaid's tale?
posted by pxe2000 at 8:39 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by pxe2000 at 8:39 AM on November 3, 2004
To my friends on Left: get over the anger and divisiveness.
Yes, why should anyone possibly want to be angry and divisive over a group that promotes intolerance, prejudice, and violence? That would be just awful!
posted by jess at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004
Yes, why should anyone possibly want to be angry and divisive over a group that promotes intolerance, prejudice, and violence? That would be just awful!
posted by jess at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004
"Move from state to state?" Where do you think you'll run when a nearly filibuster-proof Congress amends the Constitution?
posted by FormlessOne at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by FormlessOne at 9:03 AM on November 3, 2004
Old news: people are easily manipulated to hate those they perceive as 'different'.
The easiest way to win is by convincing some slight majority that the rest of the population is their enemy. The best way to win is by convincing everybody that our differences are superficial, and that we're all on the same side.
Both the teams chose the former tactic, and Bush did a better job.
posted by Eamon at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2004
The easiest way to win is by convincing some slight majority that the rest of the population is their enemy. The best way to win is by convincing everybody that our differences are superficial, and that we're all on the same side.
Both the teams chose the former tactic, and Bush did a better job.
posted by Eamon at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2004
the simple fact that we're using the BIBLE to explain political ideology scares the shit out of me.
seperation of church and state just got really really really fuzzy.
posted by Stynxno at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2004
seperation of church and state just got really really really fuzzy.
posted by Stynxno at 9:10 AM on November 3, 2004
I wish y'all could have seen the TV ads in the Tenenbaum/DeMint race. DeMint does affable and folksy real well. And the ads that weren't "I'm a regular guy, just wiser, smarter, better groomed and more Senatorial than you" were slamming Tenenbaum by showing Hilary Clinton and Ted Kennedy -- "she's one of THEM, you know."
Here in N. Carolina the fight for John Edwards' seat was bitter. Democrat Erskin Bowles mainly concentrated on the fact that Burr took more PAC money than any other legislator. And this was manifest is the huge amount that Burr had to spend on the campaign.
Burr, on the other hand, mainly ran ads showing Bowles standing next to President Clinton. That was enough to lose Bowles the race.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2004
We're the American people, and we approve of this presidency.
posted by euphorb at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by euphorb at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2004
I have come to believe that the reason so many Ameri.cans are so filled with anti-this and anti-that, and find comfort in Pres. Bush (for example), is that our nation is overly religious. We are the second most religious counry in the world--defined as going regularly to church, belonging to a church, beliving in god and the bible etc India is number One. Europe is getting increasingly non-church oriented. What is wrong then with Church and God?
It prescribes a morality that is all too often a mix of hate for "the others" and ignores what it might at its best offer: compassion and tolerance.
When I was very very young, I believed in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus...I no longer do. Nor that there is a god that resembles Walt Whitman (but not gay like that poet), sitting way up in the skys and running the show down here etc etc
Of course there is also a mix of hypocrisy among many who are religious, but that aside, I am now confinced that a good deal of our absurd rantings and anti-this and that stuff issues forth from the silliness of religious platitudes. Ok. Keep the golden rule etc and that is no problem...you don't need tax free churches to tell you what is right and what is wrong...why must we still putz around with Intelligent Design (read Creationism and/or the bible) at this point in history? please don't tell me Evolution is but a theory.
posted by Postroad at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2004
It prescribes a morality that is all too often a mix of hate for "the others" and ignores what it might at its best offer: compassion and tolerance.
When I was very very young, I believed in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus...I no longer do. Nor that there is a god that resembles Walt Whitman (but not gay like that poet), sitting way up in the skys and running the show down here etc etc
Of course there is also a mix of hypocrisy among many who are religious, but that aside, I am now confinced that a good deal of our absurd rantings and anti-this and that stuff issues forth from the silliness of religious platitudes. Ok. Keep the golden rule etc and that is no problem...you don't need tax free churches to tell you what is right and what is wrong...why must we still putz around with Intelligent Design (read Creationism and/or the bible) at this point in history? please don't tell me Evolution is but a theory.
posted by Postroad at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2004
I don't think that abortion is murder any more than I think that killing a cow is murder.
A blastosphere is a living organic thing, but not a person. It may grow up to be a person, or it may be miscarried or even absorbed back into tissue, but it is not a person.
A six-weeks' fetus is not a person. Again, it may grow up to be a person, or it may be miscarried or even absorbed back into tissue, but it is not a person.
Now, I think a thirty-weeks' embryo is probably a person, or close enough to a person that I fully agree with laws limiting abortions to the first two trimesters.
But a thirty-weeks' embryo without a spinal cord is not a person. It's a family tragedy and a health risk that doctors need to be able to exercise discretion in how to deal with.
That's my point of view.
Also, I am religious, and my religious beliefs have underscored (for me) the importance of not judging others, of caring for the sick, hungry, poor, and afflicted in soul, of educating children, of extending friendship to others, and of fighting for what I believe to be right.
My love of God makes me value my fellow humans, and the world around me, more. My understanding of Jesus gives me the courage to fight for what is right, and the wisdom to know that there are many self-righteous hypocrites in positions of power. The traditions of my church inspire me to become more educated and more aware of local, national, and global issues, and to give generously of my time and money to support those who are in need.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2004
A blastosphere is a living organic thing, but not a person. It may grow up to be a person, or it may be miscarried or even absorbed back into tissue, but it is not a person.
A six-weeks' fetus is not a person. Again, it may grow up to be a person, or it may be miscarried or even absorbed back into tissue, but it is not a person.
Now, I think a thirty-weeks' embryo is probably a person, or close enough to a person that I fully agree with laws limiting abortions to the first two trimesters.
But a thirty-weeks' embryo without a spinal cord is not a person. It's a family tragedy and a health risk that doctors need to be able to exercise discretion in how to deal with.
That's my point of view.
Also, I am religious, and my religious beliefs have underscored (for me) the importance of not judging others, of caring for the sick, hungry, poor, and afflicted in soul, of educating children, of extending friendship to others, and of fighting for what I believe to be right.
My love of God makes me value my fellow humans, and the world around me, more. My understanding of Jesus gives me the courage to fight for what is right, and the wisdom to know that there are many self-righteous hypocrites in positions of power. The traditions of my church inspire me to become more educated and more aware of local, national, and global issues, and to give generously of my time and money to support those who are in need.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2004
News flash: AMERICA HATES GAY PEOPLE.
And now it'll be enshrined in our local and state laws and constitutions, in our national constitution, in the rise of bashing and violence by emboldened asses, the firing of gays and lesbians from jobs (there'll be no ENDA at least til 08)...Makes me proud to be a (gay) American--NOT! What the fuck is wrong with people?
posted by amberglow at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2004
And now it'll be enshrined in our local and state laws and constitutions, in our national constitution, in the rise of bashing and violence by emboldened asses, the firing of gays and lesbians from jobs (there'll be no ENDA at least til 08)...Makes me proud to be a (gay) American--NOT! What the fuck is wrong with people?
posted by amberglow at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2004
It may be beneficial to all concerned if they were to frame their understanding of the USA in terms of a theocracy.
Because when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what goes on in that country seems to fit very much into the conservative Christian mold.
Take environmental issues, f'rinstance. Man has dominion over the earth. For the longest time, Christians understood this to mean that humans should pillage and plunder the earth's resources, without concern for long-term outcomes. Back in ye goode olde dayes the mainly-Christian ex-Europeans had a helluva time slaughtering buffalo, passenger pigeons, whales, dodo birds, burnt off entire states' worth of forests, etcetera. The Christian organizations never got around to promoting conservation and preservation through all that... and they mainly don't even today.
Take homosexual issues. Majority of the US citizens would as much like to see queers dead as married. Why? Well, mostly because the Christian organizations promote the idea of homosexuality as a damnable sin.
Take the problems in the mid-East. The freakin' President cast it in terms of religious war.
Because the USA is a religious, Christian nation. It wants a theocracy.
Those of you who are against the co-mingling of church and state would be very well off recognizing that most people seem to be pretty damn happy with mixing the two up.
I suggest this means you should seriously consider leaving the nation. It ain't working out for your type. Just as you would never consider living in Saudi Arabia, where church and state are as oen, you shouldn't consider living in the USA.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:09 AM on November 3, 2004
Because when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what goes on in that country seems to fit very much into the conservative Christian mold.
Take environmental issues, f'rinstance. Man has dominion over the earth. For the longest time, Christians understood this to mean that humans should pillage and plunder the earth's resources, without concern for long-term outcomes. Back in ye goode olde dayes the mainly-Christian ex-Europeans had a helluva time slaughtering buffalo, passenger pigeons, whales, dodo birds, burnt off entire states' worth of forests, etcetera. The Christian organizations never got around to promoting conservation and preservation through all that... and they mainly don't even today.
Take homosexual issues. Majority of the US citizens would as much like to see queers dead as married. Why? Well, mostly because the Christian organizations promote the idea of homosexuality as a damnable sin.
Take the problems in the mid-East. The freakin' President cast it in terms of religious war.
Because the USA is a religious, Christian nation. It wants a theocracy.
Those of you who are against the co-mingling of church and state would be very well off recognizing that most people seem to be pretty damn happy with mixing the two up.
I suggest this means you should seriously consider leaving the nation. It ain't working out for your type. Just as you would never consider living in Saudi Arabia, where church and state are as oen, you shouldn't consider living in the USA.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:09 AM on November 3, 2004
To all the single issue pro-life voters, esp. aaronshaf:
You do know that the number of abortions is steadily rising under Bush, after declining under Clinton, right?
Are you just willing to sacrifice a couple of million babies in the short-term to get a law passed leading to some, but not all, states banning abortion?
posted by bashos_frog at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2004
You do know that the number of abortions is steadily rising under Bush, after declining under Clinton, right?
Are you just willing to sacrifice a couple of million babies in the short-term to get a law passed leading to some, but not all, states banning abortion?
posted by bashos_frog at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2004
fff, that's fucked up. The US was founded as a place where church and state would be separate, where people's religious affiliations wouldn't determine their ability to participate in democracy.
I'm not abandoning the country to the people who aren't with the program. It would make the ghosts of Jefferson, Washington, and Madison weep.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2004
I'm not abandoning the country to the people who aren't with the program. It would make the ghosts of Jefferson, Washington, and Madison weep.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2004
I think your "Americans are this" or "Americans that" generalizations cannot be made anymore. The electoral map shows us very clearly that there are basically two countries here, and they do not see eye to eye. Each side is completely convinced they are right and the other side is evil and wrong.
posted by sophist at 10:21 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by sophist at 10:21 AM on November 3, 2004
I agree, it is fucked-up. I also think that it's the reality of the USA today: it is dominated by and run by Christians who have no qualms about mixing politics and religion.
The ones who aren't with the program are the ones who deny this truth.
Your decision, once you accept that truth, is between living in a religiously-controlled country, or leaving it. If you choose to live in it, you're going to have to come up with some sort of plan for surviving it and, possibly, for changing it.
Good luck.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:28 AM on November 3, 2004
The ones who aren't with the program are the ones who deny this truth.
Your decision, once you accept that truth, is between living in a religiously-controlled country, or leaving it. If you choose to live in it, you're going to have to come up with some sort of plan for surviving it and, possibly, for changing it.
Good luck.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:28 AM on November 3, 2004
Did anyone else notice that the stem-cell initiative passed in California? $3 billion (with a B) over 10 years for theraputic cloning with an emphasis on research that will lead directly and quickly to treatments and therapies. As I have several relatives who stand to personally benefit from this research, its the one bright spot I'm taking from last night.
posted by ChasFile at 10:40 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by ChasFile at 10:40 AM on November 3, 2004
I'm quite frightened today, even living up here in Canada. But just when you think you have it all, W, it begins to slip away.
posted by tranquileye at 10:45 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by tranquileye at 10:45 AM on November 3, 2004
Short of getting Bush out of the office, this is the best possible outcome in the long run. Why? Bush will get his programs passed. This means many things, but likely:
1) Those of us who dislike Bush are mostly wrong about many things and, as a result of these policies, the U.S. is a safer, better place in four years.
or
2) Those of us who dislike Bush are mostly right about many things and, as a result of these policies, the U.S. is a less safe, worse place in four years.
If it turns out we're wrong (and, hey, I'd be glad to be wrong if it makes the world a better place), then awesome. If it turns out we're right, the system is going to break down and we're going to be able to throw out the lot of them.
In the meantime, all politics is local. We can effect more positive change in our lives by fighting for our rights in our own communities, businesses and churches.
Also, we have two more years to try and make a change in congress, four more years and somebody new will have to be in the White House. I don't feel depressed at all about this. I feel energized and ready to work harder to make things better for everyone. First step? Get my workplace to offer benefits for domestic partners.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2004
1) Those of us who dislike Bush are mostly wrong about many things and, as a result of these policies, the U.S. is a safer, better place in four years.
or
2) Those of us who dislike Bush are mostly right about many things and, as a result of these policies, the U.S. is a less safe, worse place in four years.
If it turns out we're wrong (and, hey, I'd be glad to be wrong if it makes the world a better place), then awesome. If it turns out we're right, the system is going to break down and we're going to be able to throw out the lot of them.
In the meantime, all politics is local. We can effect more positive change in our lives by fighting for our rights in our own communities, businesses and churches.
Also, we have two more years to try and make a change in congress, four more years and somebody new will have to be in the White House. I don't feel depressed at all about this. I feel energized and ready to work harder to make things better for everyone. First step? Get my workplace to offer benefits for domestic partners.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2004
i went to sleep thinking "at least we fucking passed proposition 66" - i was wrong.
Did anyone else notice that the stem-cell initiative passed in California?
all of us who voted against it did. $13 million for 71, and $200,000 against it doesn't smell right to me.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:56 AM on November 3, 2004
Did anyone else notice that the stem-cell initiative passed in California?
all of us who voted against it did. $13 million for 71, and $200,000 against it doesn't smell right to me.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:56 AM on November 3, 2004
Have you guys heard even one semi-reasonable reason against gay civil unions that doesn't involve religion?
posted by gyc at 11:56 AM on November 3, 2004
posted by gyc at 11:56 AM on November 3, 2004
Well, on the bright side, the republicans continue to control the house and senate and white house, and it's far enough from the Clinton presidency that we will only have the Republicans to hold responsible...
Oh yeah, they haven't taken responsibility for anything.
Has any president been dealt a tougher hand? Blah!
posted by drezdn at 12:26 PM on November 3, 2004
Oh yeah, they haven't taken responsibility for anything.
Has any president been dealt a tougher hand? Blah!
posted by drezdn at 12:26 PM on November 3, 2004
My mom voted against stem cell research because she believes it will be a 6 billion dollar boondogle. She voted for prop 66 because her only son has 2 strikes against him.
10 years ago when my brother was a drug addict as well as an alcoholic (he's dropped the drugs and kept the booze) he was convicted of: 1. breaking into a house to steal a TV set (first felony) and 2. trying to escape the police by stealing a bicycle (second felony.) He will probably never leave Hawaii to visit California again.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2004
10 years ago when my brother was a drug addict as well as an alcoholic (he's dropped the drugs and kept the booze) he was convicted of: 1. breaking into a house to steal a TV set (first felony) and 2. trying to escape the police by stealing a bicycle (second felony.) He will probably never leave Hawaii to visit California again.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2004
This may be the year when we finally come face to face with ourselves; finally just lay back and say it -- that we are really just a nation of 220 million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns, and no qualms at all about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.
Hunter S. Thompson
Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, 1972
~chuckle~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 7:10 PM on November 3, 2004
Hunter S. Thompson
Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, 1972
~chuckle~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 7:10 PM on November 3, 2004
I'd like to pipe up and respond to all those who are blaming Christians.
I believe in God, I believe what He says and what the Right is saying in this country sounds nothing like the voice of God.
James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Matt. 25:40 "... whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."
While I can't be sure (I'm not the judge) I suspect that a lot of people who mislead good, God-fearing people for political gain will hear the following passage when the time comes.
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!
posted by Octaviuz at 9:46 PM on November 3, 2004
I believe in God, I believe what He says and what the Right is saying in this country sounds nothing like the voice of God.
James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Matt. 25:40 "... whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."
While I can't be sure (I'm not the judge) I suspect that a lot of people who mislead good, God-fearing people for political gain will hear the following passage when the time comes.
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!
posted by Octaviuz at 9:46 PM on November 3, 2004
I've heard the people on the left saying "where do we go from here?" and I've read many of their thoughts on the subject. So here are a few thoughts that have occurred to me. The last Canadian election came down to a contest between fear, of what the conservatives might do if elected, and loathing, of the Chretien govt.'s arrogance. In our case, fear won, (just) and we have a Liberal minority govt.
In the case of the american election, the same thing happened. Fear of what a 'liberal' government would do won out over the very real dissatisfaction with Bush.
Honestly, i think Fear will hallways win.
(Now this is where it get's long and slightly off topic, so bear with me)
The only way to turn some of that red to blue is to start figuring out ways to calm that fear of what the 'liberal elites' would do if elected. Unfortunately the democrats and their allies going to be playing catch up with the incredibly successful apparatus that's been built up to ridicule and caricature the left over the last 12 - 15 years.
Now I have no idea how to build or organize such a beast. But I can tell you the general size and shape of it from my point of view.
There's a quote from John Boyd. "People, Ideas, Hardware. In that order!" He was talking about fighting a war, and let's face it, that's the model the right is using, so the left had better adapt to it.
In terms of people, this election it seemed as though the left had an excellent organization to get out the vote, but a lousy one to get the vote in the first place. The left simply doesn't have the masses of people that the right wing can draw upon. This isn't just talking about the think tanks, the punditry and the lobbyists. This includes the right leaning church leaders, businessmen and local officials. The left wing needs a concerted effort to recruit, equip and mobilize religious and rural democrats to form their own networks. I'd suggest it also needs to send it's most reasonable and charismatic people to be constantly talking to anyone and everyone in the red states. People are more likely to be convinced by people they meet and talk to than by seeing any ad or speech. The right has studiously cultivated it's networks, while the left has allowed it's to mostly remain fallow since Clinton took office.
On the level of ideas we need a philosophy that is clear and consistent with both a religious and a secular viewpoint. This isn't actually as paradoxical as it might sound, as most of the bible quotes upthread indicate. Some ideas that might lead to a philosophy include taking a small l libertarian approach. "We believe that everyone has the right to run their lives as they like as long as they aren't harming anyone else". A more traditionally liberal (and Christian) 'we have a duty to help the less fortunate' could also serve as a nucleus.
Then there are ideas that won't form the ideals, but that will be helpful. These include pushing the idea of increased decentralization of the government, both in terms of increasing states rights in a consistent (i.e. even when it means accepting that there will be states that will ban gay marriage or something else) and in terms of sending authority downwards from washington to the local branches of federal agencies might help.
These ideas will no doubt cause some people to leave the democratic party. The Nader voters for one, and probably many activists for all sorts of issues. I belive that the left will gain more that it will loose, and that these people leaving the democratic party may in fact help it become something other than "the party of the northeast and the west coast", but I can't be sure.
Finally the idea that the government can be a positive force in peoples lives, the idea of the public servant, the idea of the business of government as being something honorable is something that would help this emergent movement. It would no doubt be a hard sell, but it would help defang the 'well they're all the same anyway so I'm going to vote based on who I'd like to share a beer with' mentality that is prevalent and very much works against, not just the left, but democracy as a system in general.
Hardware, for the military it's weapons and support systems. For politics, it's money. This is the one area where the left actually doesn't need to seriously rethink it's approach. This election the combined total raised by democrats and left wing groups was higher than the total raised by the republicans and right wing groups. The fact that the Republicans won should underscore why the 'in that order' part of the Boyd quote needs to be there.
At this point the more practical minded liberal has either stopped reading or said "That's great, but what are we supposed to *do*?"
1.) Reject Bill Clinton's 'steal their popular issues' approach to politics. It worked because Bill Clinton is the most naturally gifted politician since Kennedy and had a 'good old boy' sort of charm that allowed him to cherry pick republican issues and still seem like an alternative. It didn't work for Gore. And even though Kerry diverged from the playbook, clearly separating himself from Bush on healthcare and the economy, when he followed it, as he did with the war on terror and the war in Iraq. it didn't work for him.
2.) Don't let the GOTV and campaign organizations go to waste. Try to keep these people motivated and get these people to do something, anything, in the next two years, leading into the senate races. Help them reorganize groups to fight for local causes, try and get them to organize for Senate races during the midterm elections, try and get them working with MoveOn or other left wing PAC. The goal is to have as much of the manpower that was assembled for the presidential race remain politically active all the time.
3.)Talk talk talk. The right has been effective in getting their message out because they are constantly hammering home a few clear points on every issue. until such time as the media is capable of fact based filtering again, the left must do the same,
4.)Don't worry about being angry, worry about being stupid and offensive. If you're angry and you can show it without saying something that's wrong or offensive ("Fuck the christians" from upthread leaps to mind) you will be more convincing not less. Righteous anger, passionate anger, these are things the left needs more of. Like it or not emotional appeals succeed.
5.)Purge the leadership of the party of anyone who thinks that fundamental reform of the democratic party isn't nessacary. Going into the election the high turnout, the high registration the fundraising totals said that this should be an easy Kerry win. The fact that it wasn't tells you that there's something fundamentally wrong.
6.)Be ruthless with our opponents. The right wing over the last four years has shown itself to be an entity that has no need for or interest in compromise. Treat it as such. Fight *everything* tooth and nail. Only give in when there is no other option.
7.) Find ways to be unified. Identify the core values that everyone on the left shares, and focus on them. Never fight in public. Adopt the "Big Tent" or similar rhetoric.
8.) Maintain a clear and focused message and be ruthless while doing so. Anything that doesn't fit with the ideals the left sets for itself or help it win an election get's thrown to the wolves.
And since I've apparently spent two hours writing this...
I'll go to bed now.
posted by Grimgrin at 1:43 AM on November 4, 2004
In the case of the american election, the same thing happened. Fear of what a 'liberal' government would do won out over the very real dissatisfaction with Bush.
Honestly, i think Fear will hallways win.
(Now this is where it get's long and slightly off topic, so bear with me)
The only way to turn some of that red to blue is to start figuring out ways to calm that fear of what the 'liberal elites' would do if elected. Unfortunately the democrats and their allies going to be playing catch up with the incredibly successful apparatus that's been built up to ridicule and caricature the left over the last 12 - 15 years.
Now I have no idea how to build or organize such a beast. But I can tell you the general size and shape of it from my point of view.
There's a quote from John Boyd. "People, Ideas, Hardware. In that order!" He was talking about fighting a war, and let's face it, that's the model the right is using, so the left had better adapt to it.
In terms of people, this election it seemed as though the left had an excellent organization to get out the vote, but a lousy one to get the vote in the first place. The left simply doesn't have the masses of people that the right wing can draw upon. This isn't just talking about the think tanks, the punditry and the lobbyists. This includes the right leaning church leaders, businessmen and local officials. The left wing needs a concerted effort to recruit, equip and mobilize religious and rural democrats to form their own networks. I'd suggest it also needs to send it's most reasonable and charismatic people to be constantly talking to anyone and everyone in the red states. People are more likely to be convinced by people they meet and talk to than by seeing any ad or speech. The right has studiously cultivated it's networks, while the left has allowed it's to mostly remain fallow since Clinton took office.
On the level of ideas we need a philosophy that is clear and consistent with both a religious and a secular viewpoint. This isn't actually as paradoxical as it might sound, as most of the bible quotes upthread indicate. Some ideas that might lead to a philosophy include taking a small l libertarian approach. "We believe that everyone has the right to run their lives as they like as long as they aren't harming anyone else". A more traditionally liberal (and Christian) 'we have a duty to help the less fortunate' could also serve as a nucleus.
Then there are ideas that won't form the ideals, but that will be helpful. These include pushing the idea of increased decentralization of the government, both in terms of increasing states rights in a consistent (i.e. even when it means accepting that there will be states that will ban gay marriage or something else) and in terms of sending authority downwards from washington to the local branches of federal agencies might help.
These ideas will no doubt cause some people to leave the democratic party. The Nader voters for one, and probably many activists for all sorts of issues. I belive that the left will gain more that it will loose, and that these people leaving the democratic party may in fact help it become something other than "the party of the northeast and the west coast", but I can't be sure.
Finally the idea that the government can be a positive force in peoples lives, the idea of the public servant, the idea of the business of government as being something honorable is something that would help this emergent movement. It would no doubt be a hard sell, but it would help defang the 'well they're all the same anyway so I'm going to vote based on who I'd like to share a beer with' mentality that is prevalent and very much works against, not just the left, but democracy as a system in general.
Hardware, for the military it's weapons and support systems. For politics, it's money. This is the one area where the left actually doesn't need to seriously rethink it's approach. This election the combined total raised by democrats and left wing groups was higher than the total raised by the republicans and right wing groups. The fact that the Republicans won should underscore why the 'in that order' part of the Boyd quote needs to be there.
At this point the more practical minded liberal has either stopped reading or said "That's great, but what are we supposed to *do*?"
1.) Reject Bill Clinton's 'steal their popular issues' approach to politics. It worked because Bill Clinton is the most naturally gifted politician since Kennedy and had a 'good old boy' sort of charm that allowed him to cherry pick republican issues and still seem like an alternative. It didn't work for Gore. And even though Kerry diverged from the playbook, clearly separating himself from Bush on healthcare and the economy, when he followed it, as he did with the war on terror and the war in Iraq. it didn't work for him.
2.) Don't let the GOTV and campaign organizations go to waste. Try to keep these people motivated and get these people to do something, anything, in the next two years, leading into the senate races. Help them reorganize groups to fight for local causes, try and get them to organize for Senate races during the midterm elections, try and get them working with MoveOn or other left wing PAC. The goal is to have as much of the manpower that was assembled for the presidential race remain politically active all the time.
3.)Talk talk talk. The right has been effective in getting their message out because they are constantly hammering home a few clear points on every issue. until such time as the media is capable of fact based filtering again, the left must do the same,
4.)Don't worry about being angry, worry about being stupid and offensive. If you're angry and you can show it without saying something that's wrong or offensive ("Fuck the christians" from upthread leaps to mind) you will be more convincing not less. Righteous anger, passionate anger, these are things the left needs more of. Like it or not emotional appeals succeed.
5.)Purge the leadership of the party of anyone who thinks that fundamental reform of the democratic party isn't nessacary. Going into the election the high turnout, the high registration the fundraising totals said that this should be an easy Kerry win. The fact that it wasn't tells you that there's something fundamentally wrong.
6.)Be ruthless with our opponents. The right wing over the last four years has shown itself to be an entity that has no need for or interest in compromise. Treat it as such. Fight *everything* tooth and nail. Only give in when there is no other option.
7.) Find ways to be unified. Identify the core values that everyone on the left shares, and focus on them. Never fight in public. Adopt the "Big Tent" or similar rhetoric.
8.) Maintain a clear and focused message and be ruthless while doing so. Anything that doesn't fit with the ideals the left sets for itself or help it win an election get's thrown to the wolves.
And since I've apparently spent two hours writing this...
I'll go to bed now.
posted by Grimgrin at 1:43 AM on November 4, 2004
I think all the American atheists and agnostics and buddists and jews and muslims and 'other' theocratics out there would disagree that this country's 100% Christian. It's just that the Christians are more organized and better financed. That doesn't make the country a Christian Theocracy. The moral minority's just louder is all. It's been that way for a very long time. This last election's just another example of that fact. More proof that others will choose to ignore to their detriment.
Is there such a thing as the Christian Left? I think I'm part of that but we're not at all organized so none of us know we're a part of it.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:05 AM on November 4, 2004
Is there such a thing as the Christian Left? I think I'm part of that but we're not at all organized so none of us know we're a part of it.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:05 AM on November 4, 2004
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