Internet Explorer 7 announced
February 15, 2005 2:38 PM Subscribe
Internet Explorer 7 announced We've heard about it for a while and it's been discussed here before. Will the new version of I.E. be able to hold its own against open source browsers like Firefox?
Who cares? Like Longhorn, it won't be released in time to save the company from the turning worm. The rot within the Microsoft culture has already been noticed. They just don't innovate, and you can't run a technology company much longer by stealing features from other products and putting them into yours, one-two years down the line.
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:46 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:46 PM on February 15, 2005
Yeah, Microsoft has only 90% of the browser market. They better get their act together, or else they'll be in a lot of trouble. They can't let anyone else get a bigger market share of a product they'll be giving away and that you can download freely anywhere on the internet.
posted by driveler at 2:59 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by driveler at 2:59 PM on February 15, 2005
Well, it's still only possible in IE (for Mac) to create and save "Snapshots" (or the equivalent) with the text filled-in in fields preserved. And I need that bigtime for my business...
Is IE for Mac over?
posted by ParisParamus at 2:59 PM on February 15, 2005
Is IE for Mac over?
posted by ParisParamus at 2:59 PM on February 15, 2005
Well, I need to figure out how to do the aforementioned in some other browser. Although, I suppose, IE for Mac will continue to work, and I have backups of backups of backups....
posted by ParisParamus at 3:08 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 3:08 PM on February 15, 2005
The news is Microsoft announced IE7. Previous iterations were expected with features and improvements.
It's pure PR. Nothing more than smoke. At least mirrors are tangible. They haven't even given us that.
posted by pedantic at 3:15 PM on February 15, 2005
It's pure PR. Nothing more than smoke. At least mirrors are tangible. They haven't even given us that.
posted by pedantic at 3:15 PM on February 15, 2005
(if anyone, ANYONE has suggestions regarding my quest, I would love to hear from you.)
posted by ParisParamus at 3:23 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 3:23 PM on February 15, 2005
I hear, with a Mac, you can type apple-shift-3 and it accomplishes the same basic thing, Paris.
also: yes Paris
posted by basicchannel at 3:24 PM on February 15, 2005
also: yes Paris
posted by basicchannel at 3:24 PM on February 15, 2005
basicchannel, please elaborate. Using what browser?
posted by ParisParamus at 3:28 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 3:28 PM on February 15, 2005
mathowie: [...] and it may not have any CSS engine updates at all.
I haven't been following much of the IE7/Longhorn hype at this point, because it seems kind of premature and pointless, but I dearly hope that's simply a beta thing. If IE7 doesn't get a significant rendering engine and CSS update over IE6, there will be (justifiable) cries for blood.
They also need to go back and fix what they broke between IE releases in regards to their handling of Content-type: and Content-Disposition: headers, primarily used in forcing downloads in browsers. (Didn't work in IE 5.5 SP1 and earlier, worked in 6.0, broken again in subsequent IE6 updates.)
I don't like MS or IE bashing, largely because I happily used IE while there were no pre-Firefox alternatives that I actually liked using, but they really have got their work cut out for them if they intend to produce something good that isn't just a "Now with added pop-up blocking and tabbed browsing" attention-getting bullshit.
posted by ibidem at 3:33 PM on February 15, 2005
I haven't been following much of the IE7/Longhorn hype at this point, because it seems kind of premature and pointless, but I dearly hope that's simply a beta thing. If IE7 doesn't get a significant rendering engine and CSS update over IE6, there will be (justifiable) cries for blood.
They also need to go back and fix what they broke between IE releases in regards to their handling of Content-type: and Content-Disposition: headers, primarily used in forcing downloads in browsers. (Didn't work in IE 5.5 SP1 and earlier, worked in 6.0, broken again in subsequent IE6 updates.)
I don't like MS or IE bashing, largely because I happily used IE while there were no pre-Firefox alternatives that I actually liked using, but they really have got their work cut out for them if they intend to produce something good that isn't just a "Now with added pop-up blocking and tabbed browsing" attention-getting bullshit.
posted by ibidem at 3:33 PM on February 15, 2005
I was (mostly) snarkin'. In OS X, apple-shift-3 takes a screenshot. I can help you better (for reals) if you give me more info either via my contact info in my profile... or perhaps in an askMeFi post.
posted by basicchannel at 3:34 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by basicchannel at 3:34 PM on February 15, 2005
I'll e-mail you. It was already the subject of an AskMefi, but no help arrived.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:36 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 3:36 PM on February 15, 2005
ParisParamus, get OS X already, will ya? ;)
You can grab any specified window, including a browser window, including stuff in dialog boxes, with OS X's 'Grab' utility.
posted by carter at 3:43 PM on February 15, 2005
You can grab any specified window, including a browser window, including stuff in dialog boxes, with OS X's 'Grab' utility.
posted by carter at 3:43 PM on February 15, 2005
It doesn't matter if the new version of I.E. "will be able to hold it's own against open source browsers like Firefox" since it will be installed automatically on 90% of PCs and used by default by 95% of those users. Except me.
posted by anthill at 3:48 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by anthill at 3:48 PM on February 15, 2005
You can grab any specified window, including a browser window, including stuff in dialog boxes, with OS X's 'Grab' utility.
A far better way of doing this is to use the "window capture" utility built into OS X. First, hit apple-shift-4. This activates the rect-capture, which is not what you want. After you hit apple-shift-4, hit the spacebar, which switches to window-capture. The cursor turns into a camera icon, and the window that it placed over gets highlighted. Click the mouse button to capture to pdf. Sorry for the derail...
posted by rajbot at 4:00 PM on February 15, 2005
A far better way of doing this is to use the "window capture" utility built into OS X. First, hit apple-shift-4. This activates the rect-capture, which is not what you want. After you hit apple-shift-4, hit the spacebar, which switches to window-capture. The cursor turns into a camera icon, and the window that it placed over gets highlighted. Click the mouse button to capture to pdf. Sorry for the derail...
posted by rajbot at 4:00 PM on February 15, 2005
rajbot, thanks, but I need a saved page that I can later use to launch a search. So, creating a PDF would not be of use.
posted by ParisParamus at 4:09 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 4:09 PM on February 15, 2005
ParisParamus, I don't quite understand what you need, but firefox with the autoform or autofill extensions wouldn't help, would they?
posted by BevosAngryGhost at 5:12 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by BevosAngryGhost at 5:12 PM on February 15, 2005
All MS has to do to bring the train of FireFox hype to a complete halt is issue a press release like this. I bet they haven't even done any work on IE7 at all yet, and will likely do only a trivial amount before actually releasing it (if they even do release it at all).
That's some power right there. Suddenly IE is all over the news, instead of FireFox. Exactly what they want. They are probably laughing right now.
posted by Potsy at 5:27 PM on February 15, 2005
That's some power right there. Suddenly IE is all over the news, instead of FireFox. Exactly what they want. They are probably laughing right now.
posted by Potsy at 5:27 PM on February 15, 2005
Thanks for all the help (and attempts), inluding from a chap who isn't even a Mefi member. When I get my OS X machine, I'll post another Ask Me. Because this is imprortant, and I've yet to see a better solution than continuing to use an antiquing set of IE for Mac Snapshots.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:41 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 5:41 PM on February 15, 2005
I don't think there is a good way of doing what PP wants without using IE. The screen captures are work-arounds--and not very good ones at that. A snapshot in IE 5 for Mac is like keeping a cached page (including any text you've filled into a form) with a link to the original page. If the original page goes belly up, you still have a perfectly rendered, printable version in a tabbed list. You can save and organize the snapshot pages in a handy bookmark-like fashion.
As for OSX, it's sweet all right but, for the average Joe-computer user (me) I don't think it's all that and a bag of chips. With ebay, it's now easy and cheap to keep old machines running just fine and there is still plenty of very useful old hardware and software out there at good prices. In fact, SCSI is making a comeback on my computer. More money for beer.
posted by a_day_late at 5:44 PM on February 15, 2005
As for OSX, it's sweet all right but, for the average Joe-computer user (me) I don't think it's all that and a bag of chips. With ebay, it's now easy and cheap to keep old machines running just fine and there is still plenty of very useful old hardware and software out there at good prices. In fact, SCSI is making a comeback on my computer. More money for beer.
posted by a_day_late at 5:44 PM on February 15, 2005
I thought this was more PR by MS. The last sentence did it for me when the author said "While 5% may be a far cry from IE's 90%, it represents one of the strongest showings from a non IE browser in the past 10 years or so." Microsoft launched IE4, the browser that beat Netscape Navigator in marketshare in 1997 with Windows 98. It was a little while before IE got 90% of the market. Let's say 1998. Hardly a decade ago.
The rest of the piece sounds like PR as well. There is no mention that a standalone browser for XP will be available, just a beta release date. Could just as well be for Longhorn beta release.
"Measures to help users avoid ‘Phishing' scams, spyware and viruses are expected to addressed in full as Gates pointed out that Microsoft has dedicated nearly $2 billion of it's annual research and development budget on security. " I suspect this means more popup windows and wizards warning about the potential of bad people sending you mail. Maybe a window to block messages from that source.
This sounds like standard MS OP. Announce a product with features competitors have today, place it ambiguously in the future (12-18 months out being just right) and make the PHBs wait for your product.
posted by infowar at 5:47 PM on February 15, 2005
The rest of the piece sounds like PR as well. There is no mention that a standalone browser for XP will be available, just a beta release date. Could just as well be for Longhorn beta release.
"Measures to help users avoid ‘Phishing' scams, spyware and viruses are expected to addressed in full as Gates pointed out that Microsoft has dedicated nearly $2 billion of it's annual research and development budget on security. " I suspect this means more popup windows and wizards warning about the potential of bad people sending you mail. Maybe a window to block messages from that source.
This sounds like standard MS OP. Announce a product with features competitors have today, place it ambiguously in the future (12-18 months out being just right) and make the PHBs wait for your product.
posted by infowar at 5:47 PM on February 15, 2005
PP is even derailing non-political threads these days. Sheesh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:48 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:48 PM on February 15, 2005
Thanks for all the help (and attempts), inluding from a chap who isn't even a Mefi member. When I get my OS X machine, I'll post another Ask Me. Because this is imprortant, and I've yet to see a better solution than continuing to use an antiquing set of IE for Mac Snapshots.
PP, in OS X, you can create a PDF file from any application from which you can pull down the File menu and select Print.
That means you can create a PDF file from Safari, Firefox, Opera, iCab, what have you, which contains the entire webpage in one easy "snapshot".
posted by AlexReynolds at 5:51 PM on February 15, 2005
PP, in OS X, you can create a PDF file from any application from which you can pull down the File menu and select Print.
That means you can create a PDF file from Safari, Firefox, Opera, iCab, what have you, which contains the entire webpage in one easy "snapshot".
posted by AlexReynolds at 5:51 PM on February 15, 2005
So you can all think about MY needs: I need to conduct about 40 searches in a public database every week (the data changes every week). I want the ability to pull up a file that consists of the search page for this database, with the search query already in the field, so that I need only hit the SEARCH button on the search page 40 times; not enter in 40 search queries every week. OK?
posted by ParisParamus at 5:51 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 5:51 PM on February 15, 2005
I want the ability to pull up a file that consists of the search page for this database, with the search query already in the field, so that I need only hit the SEARCH button on the search page 40 times; not enter in 40 search queries every week. OK?
You can do this with the AutoFill feature in Safari and Firefox. Just type in a little bit of one field and the rest will be filled in for you, if you hit "OK" on the first form session.
posted by AlexReynolds at 6:15 PM on February 15, 2005
You can do this with the AutoFill feature in Safari and Firefox. Just type in a little bit of one field and the rest will be filled in for you, if you hit "OK" on the first form session.
posted by AlexReynolds at 6:15 PM on February 15, 2005
Lipstick on a pig.
As the slashdot-linked "rot" article notes, Microsoft's mindshare these days is asymptotically approaching zero. They don't innovate, except to protect their beloved desktop. They don't improve, except to block third-party moves. You just don't hear about anything interesting they're doing, outside of MCSE circles. Nothing interesting that is happening right now seems to involve Microsoft in any way, shape, or form -- the momentum is now with the Browser OS, web applications, interactive services. Even Microsoft's Sharepoint -- a naked, but halfhearted, play for some of this action -- reached the market with a thud.
Microsoft is on the defensive, on every front.
Paris: grep and wget, OK?
posted by dhartung at 6:27 PM on February 15, 2005
As the slashdot-linked "rot" article notes, Microsoft's mindshare these days is asymptotically approaching zero. They don't innovate, except to protect their beloved desktop. They don't improve, except to block third-party moves. You just don't hear about anything interesting they're doing, outside of MCSE circles. Nothing interesting that is happening right now seems to involve Microsoft in any way, shape, or form -- the momentum is now with the Browser OS, web applications, interactive services. Even Microsoft's Sharepoint -- a naked, but halfhearted, play for some of this action -- reached the market with a thud.
Microsoft is on the defensive, on every front.
Paris: grep and wget, OK?
posted by dhartung at 6:27 PM on February 15, 2005
Grep and wget?
Is that anything like "read it and weep"?
iKid.
posted by wendell at 6:31 PM on February 15, 2005
Is that anything like "read it and weep"?
iKid.
posted by wendell at 6:31 PM on February 15, 2005
Alex Reynolds, I believe you are mistaken. But I will run over to the Apple Store tomorrow to make sure.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:48 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 6:48 PM on February 15, 2005
PP:
Safari:
Safari -> Preferences -> Autofill -> Edit (site-by-site basis)
Firefox:
1. Enter about:config in the URL field
2. Right-click on the page and create a new Boolean value
3. Enter browser.urlbar.autoFill as the preference name (note, case-sensitive: 'F', not 'f')
4. Set the value to true
posted by AlexReynolds at 7:07 PM on February 15, 2005
Safari:
Safari -> Preferences -> Autofill -> Edit (site-by-site basis)
Firefox:
1. Enter about:config in the URL field
2. Right-click on the page and create a new Boolean value
3. Enter browser.urlbar.autoFill as the preference name (note, case-sensitive: 'F', not 'f')
4. Set the value to true
posted by AlexReynolds at 7:07 PM on February 15, 2005
I can only hope that it provides some major fixes in CSS rendering. I spent about two hours the other night trying to make a mostly-standards-compliant setup to set the maximum width of the text of my page to match the font size. The bad news is, IE does not understand max-width.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:34 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:34 PM on February 15, 2005
I can only hope this is the beginning of MS's long slide into obscurity. It could happen: fifteen years ago, no one would've thought IBM would've jumped ship on the PC business, but it happened.
posted by fungible at 7:53 PM on February 15, 2005
posted by fungible at 7:53 PM on February 15, 2005
I thought this was more PR by MS.
It seems like the guy did little more than just rewrite other news stories without adding any new content. See how the article compares to the considerably longer and more in depth Reuters version. Is it too expensive for these people just to pipe in their news from Reuters and the AP?
This sounds like standard MS OP. Announce a product with features competitors have today, place it ambiguously in the future.
That's what all software companies do. Half Life 2? Doom 3? Anything by Blizzard?
posted by Arch Stanton at 8:02 PM on February 15, 2005
It seems like the guy did little more than just rewrite other news stories without adding any new content. See how the article compares to the considerably longer and more in depth Reuters version. Is it too expensive for these people just to pipe in their news from Reuters and the AP?
This sounds like standard MS OP. Announce a product with features competitors have today, place it ambiguously in the future.
That's what all software companies do. Half Life 2? Doom 3? Anything by Blizzard?
posted by Arch Stanton at 8:02 PM on February 15, 2005
They don't innovate, except to protect their beloved desktop.
Dan, I can't believe you wrote that. What about the Tablet and Media Center versions of XP? Neither is perfect, surely, but they are far out ahead of anything from Apple. Not sure why you're so down on SharePoint but businesses are starting to build on it and then there's OneNote. Further, what about the over 1300 bloggers and the new openness they're bringing? Since none of us here have seen an alpha of IE7 or the PRD for it, most of this thread (Paris's Mac issues aside) sound like so much wah wah wah.
posted by billsaysthis at 9:21 PM on February 15, 2005
Dan, I can't believe you wrote that. What about the Tablet and Media Center versions of XP? Neither is perfect, surely, but they are far out ahead of anything from Apple. Not sure why you're so down on SharePoint but businesses are starting to build on it and then there's OneNote. Further, what about the over 1300 bloggers and the new openness they're bringing? Since none of us here have seen an alpha of IE7 or the PRD for it, most of this thread (Paris's Mac issues aside) sound like so much wah wah wah.
posted by billsaysthis at 9:21 PM on February 15, 2005
Microsoft has only 90% of the browser market.
Actually, it's only about 70% at the moment. The most interesting thing to note is that Mozilla/Firefox has jumped from 8% to over 20% in just over a year.
Microsoft should be worried. I wouldn't hold my breath for IE7 either.
posted by purephase at 9:25 PM on February 15, 2005
Actually, it's only about 70% at the moment. The most interesting thing to note is that Mozilla/Firefox has jumped from 8% to over 20% in just over a year.
Microsoft should be worried. I wouldn't hold my breath for IE7 either.
posted by purephase at 9:25 PM on February 15, 2005
Not a representative sample, purephase: "The statistics above are extracted from W3Schools' log-files, but we are also monitoring other sources around the Internet to assure the quality of these figures". The unwashed masses are not visiting W3Schools. I say this as a dedicated (but realistic) Firefox user.
But I agree, I'm not holding my breath either.
posted by pmurray63 at 11:31 PM on February 15, 2005
But I agree, I'm not holding my breath either.
posted by pmurray63 at 11:31 PM on February 15, 2005
We've got IE at work, and the latest update seems to block popups - but every single time it does, it goes "pop!" and a little message at the top appears to tell you. But it also blocks some scripts from activating, even some navigation menu scripts, for some reason. I didn't check myself, I just saw someone swearing over it, but it doesn't seem like there's a simple option to turn it off, it's all tied into those horrible custom security settings. Ironically, the popup blocker is actually more annoying than popups. I've been using Firefox since 0.6 - even back when it was buggy as hell, it was still less hassle than IE.
We're just about to switch over all the office machines to Firefox instead of IE, and will make everyone use it instead. Up yours, IE.
posted by ralphyk at 4:35 AM on February 16, 2005
We're just about to switch over all the office machines to Firefox instead of IE, and will make everyone use it instead. Up yours, IE.
posted by ralphyk at 4:35 AM on February 16, 2005
I think the basic problem that Microsoft needs to worry about is not the market share, but the momentum. Two years ago, the "PC" magazines were extremely into pushing Internet Explorer and Outlook Express. (With perhaps a brief nod to Netscape and Opera.) Now, the momentum as shifted to a positive blurb about Mozilla in mainstream news sources about once a week. It seems that Mozilla has joined Zone Alarm and Winzip as recommended downloads.
I don't think that IE will ever loose the majority on the Windows platform. But developing enough market share to encourage cross-browser and standards-based web design is a good thing.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:30 AM on February 16, 2005
I don't think that IE will ever loose the majority on the Windows platform. But developing enough market share to encourage cross-browser and standards-based web design is a good thing.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:30 AM on February 16, 2005
I'm holding out near-zero hope for them fixing current css problems.
What would be the benefit? Web designers would have an easier time making their sites cross-browser compatible. Result: A small amount of goodwill generated among people who aren't fully loyal to MS.
What would be the downside? Corporations would feel compelled to upgrade their internal IE6-centric pages if they migrated to Longhorn. Result: slower adoption of Longhorn.
On the other hand, full PNG support and adding in previously unsupported css bits probably wouldn't hurt anything.
posted by catachresoid at 5:53 AM on February 16, 2005
What would be the benefit? Web designers would have an easier time making their sites cross-browser compatible. Result: A small amount of goodwill generated among people who aren't fully loyal to MS.
What would be the downside? Corporations would feel compelled to upgrade their internal IE6-centric pages if they migrated to Longhorn. Result: slower adoption of Longhorn.
On the other hand, full PNG support and adding in previously unsupported css bits probably wouldn't hurt anything.
posted by catachresoid at 5:53 AM on February 16, 2005
Didn't MSFT just have its most profitable quarter ever? They've got 90% browser market share, loosing about 1% a month. So maybe they'll go all the way down to 70-75% before Longhorn arrives and it starts climbing back up to 90%?
posted by gwint at 7:42 AM on February 16, 2005
posted by gwint at 7:42 AM on February 16, 2005
Dean Edwards' IE7 adds CSS support and PNG transparency (as discussed previously).
posted by kirkaracha at 7:53 AM on February 16, 2005
posted by kirkaracha at 7:53 AM on February 16, 2005
Doesn't MS make the vast majority of their profits off of MS office? So what if they lose market share in IE? Does that impact their bottom line in any way?
posted by MillMan at 2:59 PM on February 16, 2005
posted by MillMan at 2:59 PM on February 16, 2005
At the very least, it's a blow to the illusion of an all-MS world, in which so many dolts take comfort.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:05 PM on February 16, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 3:05 PM on February 16, 2005
I'm thinking that it'll be an all .net version of ie6 with the extra css stuff (as part of the longhorn rendering engine) and a pretty front end. I've also got a feeling that it'll be more than capable of competing with firefox.
Which is a shame. I'd have like to have seen firefox grab a bit more market share before Microsoft got all heavy about it.
posted by seanyboy at 4:50 PM on February 16, 2005
Which is a shame. I'd have like to have seen firefox grab a bit more market share before Microsoft got all heavy about it.
posted by seanyboy at 4:50 PM on February 16, 2005
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posted by mathowie at 2:41 PM on February 15, 2005