A job well done
April 26, 2005 3:02 AM Subscribe
still interesting after several months: Karzai vs. the Warlords
I was and still am in favor of the ousting of the Taliban, but nobody in his or her right mind can deny that Karzai (who, by the way, still remains little more than a well-dressed tool with excellent manners) can control little more than a portion of the country -- the rest is in the hands of less-than-savory characters. and many, in Afghanistan and elsewhere, still obviously like a healthy dose of hard-nosed Koran in their Law.
the problem is the West should just give up the illusion that the entire world is thirsting for women's rights, separation of church and State, and the Gap. hell, even in the US the whole theocracy thing seems to have a lot of fans -- the only upside being that at least no one in the West is seriously considering stoning the gays on the basis of Leviticus -- they just want the gays to remain second-class citizens. but no stoning, just the occasional crucifixion
posted by matteo at 3:26 AM on April 26, 2005
I was and still am in favor of the ousting of the Taliban, but nobody in his or her right mind can deny that Karzai (who, by the way, still remains little more than a well-dressed tool with excellent manners) can control little more than a portion of the country -- the rest is in the hands of less-than-savory characters. and many, in Afghanistan and elsewhere, still obviously like a healthy dose of hard-nosed Koran in their Law.
the problem is the West should just give up the illusion that the entire world is thirsting for women's rights, separation of church and State, and the Gap. hell, even in the US the whole theocracy thing seems to have a lot of fans -- the only upside being that at least no one in the West is seriously considering stoning the gays on the basis of Leviticus -- they just want the gays to remain second-class citizens. but no stoning, just the occasional crucifixion
posted by matteo at 3:26 AM on April 26, 2005
Thank goodness she died enjoying Freedom and Democracy, rather than the alternative.
posted by nightchrome at 3:33 AM on April 26, 2005
posted by nightchrome at 3:33 AM on April 26, 2005
...but don't you get it?
Now that the US has destroyed the Taliban, those people were free to choose to stone her, not forced into it by a murderous government!
Hooray for the freedom!
posted by Al_Truist at 3:36 AM on April 26, 2005
Now that the US has destroyed the Taliban, those people were free to choose to stone her, not forced into it by a murderous government!
Hooray for the freedom!
posted by Al_Truist at 3:36 AM on April 26, 2005
...but you can't actually die from being stoned. Everyone knows that.
posted by clockzero at 4:15 AM on April 26, 2005
posted by clockzero at 4:15 AM on April 26, 2005
matteo writes " the only upside being that at least no one in the West is seriously considering stoning the gays on the basis of Leviticus"
posted by orthogonality at 5:00 AM on April 26, 2005
"According to the Scriptures, it's the government's job to enforce God's law and to uphold his law, and the Bible talks about how, I don't want to really get into this — it'll make me sound like I'm crazy — but it does talk about how [homosexuals] are to be put to death. The wages of sin is death. But I want to make [it] clear that I'm not advocating the [independent] killing of homosexuals. … I'm saying that the government's duty is to uphold God's law. … I know that's harsh, but we have all broken the law, God's law, and we need to be held accountable." Christian activist Michael Marcavage to the Philadelphia City Paper.(This is the same Marcavage who faced 47 years for exercising his free speech rights at a gay pride day. The charges were recently dismissed. Apparently some judges still know the Constitution.)
posted by orthogonality at 5:00 AM on April 26, 2005
BBC & Amnesty and Islam Online (which has its own unique perspective)
The husband had been out of the country for 5 years. Amina (deceased) had recently asked her husband for a separation because he could not afford to keep her. It was the husband's family who (apparently) committed the stoning.
Fuck. Ignorant cockheads.
posted by peacay at 5:18 AM on April 26, 2005
The husband had been out of the country for 5 years. Amina (deceased) had recently asked her husband for a separation because he could not afford to keep her. It was the husband's family who (apparently) committed the stoning.
Fuck. Ignorant cockheads.
posted by peacay at 5:18 AM on April 26, 2005
From the Islam Online reporting editorializing of the stoning....
Adultery is forbidden in Islam, which places sentences ranging between flogging to stoning to death on the adulterers unless they repent and change their evil ways.posted by peacay at 5:27 AM on April 26, 2005
However, people are not entitled to stone the adulterers by their own hands, for it's the responsibility of the Muslim state and its concerned bodies to do the punishment in order to maintain peace and security and prevent chaos and disorder.
Islam sets very specific and clear-cut conditions to prove adultery.
The person accused of adultery makes a confession and does not go back on it. Once the person retracts his/her confession, he/she is not punishable because there is no proof of the act.
Four reliable and pious men testify that they witnessed the act and actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina.
A woman without a husband found to be pregnant.
Scholars agreed on the first two methods of proving adultery, but disputed the third one; some scholars rejected the third point as proof.
It should also be clear that the punishment should be prevented as much as possible.
they just want the gays to remain second-class citizens. but no stoning, just the occasional crucifixion.
thought recent evidence showed he may have been killed by an ex-boyfriend.
If the courts had found her guilty would she have been stoned?
I read this article as a murder has happen which are done in my city too. What is the big Wow if my question above is no? Because I don't see how this type of crime can ever be prevented since people commit evil acts daily. I take that back, useing mind control will stop it.
posted by thomcatspike at 5:40 AM on April 26, 2005
thought recent evidence showed he may have been killed by an ex-boyfriend.
If the courts had found her guilty would she have been stoned?
I read this article as a murder has happen which are done in my city too. What is the big Wow if my question above is no? Because I don't see how this type of crime can ever be prevented since people commit evil acts daily. I take that back, useing mind control will stop it.
posted by thomcatspike at 5:40 AM on April 26, 2005
dhoyt: Boy am I glad you're being sarcastic.
OMG guys! Islam is lk, sooooo never about stoning!!!
posted by Ricky_gr10 at 6:04 AM on April 26, 2005
OMG guys! Islam is lk, sooooo never about stoning!!!
posted by Ricky_gr10 at 6:04 AM on April 26, 2005
omg stop shitting on islam
you're funny as always, and I know it hurts, but care to comment on the smashing success of the liberation of Afghanistan one day or another?
posted by matteo at 6:43 AM on April 26, 2005
you're funny as always, and I know it hurts, but care to comment on the smashing success of the liberation of Afghanistan one day or another?
posted by matteo at 6:43 AM on April 26, 2005
the problem is the West should just give up the illusion that the entire world is thirsting for women's rights, separation of church and State, and the Gap. hell, even in the US the whole theocracy thing seems to have a lot of fans
You can either civilize them by the sword, as Great Britain did in the 19th century, or you can simply accept that civilization is only meant for people that want it for themselves. No one has the stomach for the former these days(1), and no one practices the tolerance required for the latter (particularly not the religious zealots on our own country), so in the end we're left with civilization's bastard-children that have all the toys and none of the responsibilities.
(1) By "stomach" I mean, essentially, an enlightened but brutal tyranny. Not merely the invasion and pussy-footed occupation that we're so good at.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:45 AM on April 26, 2005
You can either civilize them by the sword, as Great Britain did in the 19th century, or you can simply accept that civilization is only meant for people that want it for themselves. No one has the stomach for the former these days(1), and no one practices the tolerance required for the latter (particularly not the religious zealots on our own country), so in the end we're left with civilization's bastard-children that have all the toys and none of the responsibilities.
(1) By "stomach" I mean, essentially, an enlightened but brutal tyranny. Not merely the invasion and pussy-footed occupation that we're so good at.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:45 AM on April 26, 2005
matteo....I'm not sure that the success or otherwise of the 'liberation' of Afghanistan can be judged from something like this stoning (although I sense you were probably only reacting here in a general way).
This tribal law system is obviously very old and entrenched. If there had been 10x as many invaders then traditional practices would just be played out indoors.
It's a very complex scene. I'm sure I don't have the first clue as to just how these barbaric sentences by the Mullah can be curbed. They're only anachronistic to us of course.
posted by peacay at 7:03 AM on April 26, 2005
This tribal law system is obviously very old and entrenched. If there had been 10x as many invaders then traditional practices would just be played out indoors.
It's a very complex scene. I'm sure I don't have the first clue as to just how these barbaric sentences by the Mullah can be curbed. They're only anachronistic to us of course.
posted by peacay at 7:03 AM on April 26, 2005
care to comment on the smashing success of the liberation of Afghanistan one day or another?
That may lead one to the belief that the neo-conservative game plan of "just add U.S. troops to a country and voila!, instant democracy" doesn't work... eek!
Must... stop... Head... beginning... to... swell... Too... many... conflicting... thoughts....
BUSH RULES! Ah, much better. Damn Hippies.
posted by jperkins at 7:07 AM on April 26, 2005
That may lead one to the belief that the neo-conservative game plan of "just add U.S. troops to a country and voila!, instant democracy" doesn't work... eek!
Must... stop... Head... beginning... to... swell... Too... many... conflicting... thoughts....
BUSH RULES! Ah, much better. Damn Hippies.
posted by jperkins at 7:07 AM on April 26, 2005
"enlightened but brutal tyranny"
Uh, there actually are some fans of the no pussyfooting approach, like Ralph Peters.
posted by warbaby at 7:30 AM on April 26, 2005
Uh, there actually are some fans of the no pussyfooting approach, like Ralph Peters.
posted by warbaby at 7:30 AM on April 26, 2005
but care to comment on the smashing success of the liberation of Afghanistan one day or another?
I suspect dhoyt is making reference to this outburst. It's worth noting that this week, Afghanistan named its first female governor. The "smashing success of the liberation of Afghanistan" obviously does not happen magically after generations and generations of war & poverty. Let's hope there is more international aid provided for Afghans to enjoy better living conditions & freedoms in the coming years.
Here is one of many places to donate to the human rights situation in Afghanistan: the Campaign for Afghan Women and Girls.
In any case, this seems like a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario where ousting the Taliban grants you a sardonic "Job well done!" when something goes wrong, whereas before the occupation all we heard was "How can we tolerate this?" Now that schools are being built, Taliban are being driven out and women are being elected governor, critics are uncomfortable and must shift focus, again. Look at the first 6-7 responses to this thread.
The stoning was not random, or "violence qua violence", or a problem of class. It is a practice specifically condoned and encouraged by cultural Islamic laws straight out of the Middle ages. C_D says:
You can either civilize them by the sword, as Great Britain did in the 19th century, or you can simply accept that civilization is only meant for people that want it for themselves.
Many don't "want it for themselves" any more than the battered Western trailer-wife (to use a cliché) wants more knocks from her husband. However, most countries have laws in place which forbid a wives to be thrown from windows for perceived infractions whenever the husband decides it's appropriate.
Rethinking the use of Muslim law
By Tariq Ramadan
If from within the Muslim world a light is shone on the injustices borne out by sharia law, perhaps consciousness will be raised over the next several generations to a point where such practices will not be tolerated. But it does not hurt for the international community to shine that same light if they truly seek better human rights for all. Better to first raise consciousness than "the sword".
posted by jenleigh at 7:40 AM on April 26, 2005
I suspect dhoyt is making reference to this outburst. It's worth noting that this week, Afghanistan named its first female governor. The "smashing success of the liberation of Afghanistan" obviously does not happen magically after generations and generations of war & poverty. Let's hope there is more international aid provided for Afghans to enjoy better living conditions & freedoms in the coming years.
Here is one of many places to donate to the human rights situation in Afghanistan: the Campaign for Afghan Women and Girls.
In any case, this seems like a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario where ousting the Taliban grants you a sardonic "Job well done!" when something goes wrong, whereas before the occupation all we heard was "How can we tolerate this?" Now that schools are being built, Taliban are being driven out and women are being elected governor, critics are uncomfortable and must shift focus, again. Look at the first 6-7 responses to this thread.
The stoning was not random, or "violence qua violence", or a problem of class. It is a practice specifically condoned and encouraged by cultural Islamic laws straight out of the Middle ages. C_D says:
You can either civilize them by the sword, as Great Britain did in the 19th century, or you can simply accept that civilization is only meant for people that want it for themselves.
Many don't "want it for themselves" any more than the battered Western trailer-wife (to use a cliché) wants more knocks from her husband. However, most countries have laws in place which forbid a wives to be thrown from windows for perceived infractions whenever the husband decides it's appropriate.
Rethinking the use of Muslim law
By Tariq Ramadan
In the name of Islamic principles, there should be an immediate moratorium in the Muslim world. First, the ulama are not in agreement on the interpretation or authenticity of texts referring to such injunctions or on the political and social contexts in which they would be applicable. Second, the punitive application of the sharia today is used by repressive powers to abuse women, the poor, and political opponents within a quasi-legal vacuum. Muslim conscience cannot accept this injustice. Third, Muslim populations, without direct access to many of the relevant texts, tend to believe that devotion to Islam requires a strict and visible display of punishment, partly in opposition to 'the West." It is necessary to resist such a formalistic drift.I take issue with this notion from Ramadan's editorial: "The unilateral condemnations one hears in the West will not help to move things along. On the contrary, Muslim populations are convincing themselves of the Islamic character of these practices through a rejection of the West on the basis of a simplistic reasoning that stipulates that the less Western something is, the more Islamic it is."
If from within the Muslim world a light is shone on the injustices borne out by sharia law, perhaps consciousness will be raised over the next several generations to a point where such practices will not be tolerated. But it does not hurt for the international community to shine that same light if they truly seek better human rights for all. Better to first raise consciousness than "the sword".
posted by jenleigh at 7:40 AM on April 26, 2005
You know, I was hit by a thrown stone once. It cut my elbow and gave me a big bruise. Hurt like hell, right down to the bone. One of those, it hit me in the arm but now my whole jaw aches kind of hurt? Anyway, one stone, and it hurt like hell for a week.
Anyone who could take part in stoning someone to death is a monster.
Any set of laws that sanction stoning someone to death is monstrous.
Anyone who excuses stoning someone to death is a monster.
posted by breezeway at 8:00 AM on April 26, 2005
Anyone who could take part in stoning someone to death is a monster.
Any set of laws that sanction stoning someone to death is monstrous.
Anyone who excuses stoning someone to death is a monster.
posted by breezeway at 8:00 AM on April 26, 2005
U.S. Catalogs Humanitarian Successes in Afghanistan for 2002, January 10, 2003
(From the State Department's Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration)posted by jenleigh at 8:00 AM on April 26, 2005
In the year following the defeat of the Taliban, more than 2 million Afghan refugees returned to Afghanistan, more than 3 million Afghan children – boys and girls – returned to school, 15 million Afghan children were immunized against polio, and 8 million children were immunized against measles.
These are some of the outstanding humanitarian success stories in Afghanistan during 2002, according to a fact sheet issued January 10 by the State Department's Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration (PRM).
The PRM Bureau provided funds totaling over $110 million to the United Nations and other international organizations, as well as to non-government organizations (NGOs) to carry out programs for Afghans. Such programs include health care, shelter, vocational and literacy training, and education.
Any set of laws that sanction stoning someone to death is monstrous.
There goes Judaism.
posted by bardic at 8:14 AM on April 26, 2005
There goes Judaism.
posted by bardic at 8:14 AM on April 26, 2005
jenleigh you raise some great points.
But if for a moment we presume that Ramadan's predictions are right, then applying the blowtorch in our usual manner (sanctions/UN callouts/public statements of criticism etc) is not going to advance the aim of curbing Sharia law. It's probably going to entrench it further for many people.
I think that it raises the whole idea of targetted diplomacy as a more intelligent means of investing in change. If instead of villifying these ancient practices out of hand we were to for instance/example bring increased numbers of villagers to the west for a year or 2 of education and then return them to their home, wouldn't it be more likely that more people similar to Ramadan would raise objections from within? And wouldn't that opposition have more chance of successful transition away from brutality than either bombing runs or mere lip service?
And on preview........perhaps education (not brainwashing) inside Afghanistan with our support/aid will move things along also. But I think a whole swag of subtler proposals than the usual yelling and criticizing is needed to bring about socioreligious versus political change.
/apolgist
posted by peacay at 8:19 AM on April 26, 2005
But if for a moment we presume that Ramadan's predictions are right, then applying the blowtorch in our usual manner (sanctions/UN callouts/public statements of criticism etc) is not going to advance the aim of curbing Sharia law. It's probably going to entrench it further for many people.
I think that it raises the whole idea of targetted diplomacy as a more intelligent means of investing in change. If instead of villifying these ancient practices out of hand we were to for instance/example bring increased numbers of villagers to the west for a year or 2 of education and then return them to their home, wouldn't it be more likely that more people similar to Ramadan would raise objections from within? And wouldn't that opposition have more chance of successful transition away from brutality than either bombing runs or mere lip service?
And on preview........perhaps education (not brainwashing) inside Afghanistan with our support/aid will move things along also. But I think a whole swag of subtler proposals than the usual yelling and criticizing is needed to bring about socioreligious versus political change.
/apolgist
posted by peacay at 8:19 AM on April 26, 2005
I'm so confused. Most of the anti-war crowd isn't simply stating that we shouldn't have gone to Iraq. They're also stating that we should remove our troops from the area immediately. But, much to my dismay, that's exactly what we did in Afghanistan and slowly but surely, the country is losing control.
So which is it, exactly? Should we pull out of Iraq, and allow the people to suffer a similar fate as those in Afghanistan? Or is pulling out a completely different idea in Iraq because they're far more capable of self-rule than those in Afghanistan?
I'd like to know why the media isn't pressing the administration, or political leaders in general, to focus more on Afghanistan. Our lack of involvement there is quite obviously to the detriment of the people there. And yet, in Iraq, we should just get the hell out because there are no WMDs. Seems to me that most of the rhetoric surrounding this debate is for political gain, and not at all interested in protecting the people who still have to live in these countries, day-in and day-out.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 8:20 AM on April 26, 2005
So which is it, exactly? Should we pull out of Iraq, and allow the people to suffer a similar fate as those in Afghanistan? Or is pulling out a completely different idea in Iraq because they're far more capable of self-rule than those in Afghanistan?
I'd like to know why the media isn't pressing the administration, or political leaders in general, to focus more on Afghanistan. Our lack of involvement there is quite obviously to the detriment of the people there. And yet, in Iraq, we should just get the hell out because there are no WMDs. Seems to me that most of the rhetoric surrounding this debate is for political gain, and not at all interested in protecting the people who still have to live in these countries, day-in and day-out.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 8:20 AM on April 26, 2005
Should we pull out of Iraq, and allow the people to suffer a similar fate as those in Afghanistan?
I agree that Bushco. has pretty much botched Afghanistan due to neglect, but it seems to me that pulling US troops out of Iraq would definitely improve the lives of Iraqis, since terrorists would have nothing left to blow up. Not that things would be perfect due to Sunni/Shiite tension, but probably much better. The Kurds ceretainly don't need our "help."
posted by bardic at 8:29 AM on April 26, 2005
I agree that Bushco. has pretty much botched Afghanistan due to neglect, but it seems to me that pulling US troops out of Iraq would definitely improve the lives of Iraqis, since terrorists would have nothing left to blow up. Not that things would be perfect due to Sunni/Shiite tension, but probably much better. The Kurds ceretainly don't need our "help."
posted by bardic at 8:29 AM on April 26, 2005
omg stop shitting on islam
Someone just failed a litmus test for intelligence (if not ideological consistency).
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:07 AM on April 26, 2005
Someone just failed a litmus test for intelligence (if not ideological consistency).
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:07 AM on April 26, 2005
Errrm, SeizeTheDay, there's no better resource than Heroin in Afghanistan -- Oil is still legal to drill, process, refine and sell. And let's not forget The Mayor of Kabul.
posted by gsb at 9:09 AM on April 26, 2005
posted by gsb at 9:09 AM on April 26, 2005
...but you can't actually die from being stoned. Everyone knows that.
posted by clockzero at 7:15 AM EST
When you have th quality and quantity of shit they do in Afghanistan you most certainly can.
The latest on Hamid Karzai is that he likes little boys. This strange AfghanistanMBLA one person show has been actively suppressed but such activity can be covered up for only so long. Makes you think he's a Catholic priest rather than the puppet leader of an Islamic country.
posted by nofundy at 9:20 AM on April 26, 2005
posted by clockzero at 7:15 AM EST
When you have th quality and quantity of shit they do in Afghanistan you most certainly can.
The latest on Hamid Karzai is that he likes little boys. This strange AfghanistanMBLA one person show has been actively suppressed but such activity can be covered up for only so long. Makes you think he's a Catholic priest rather than the puppet leader of an Islamic country.
posted by nofundy at 9:20 AM on April 26, 2005
But, much to my dismay, that's exactly what we did in Afghanistan and slowly but surely, the country is losing control.
The U.S. still has troops in Afghanistan. At the very least they're there carrying on the hunt for bin Laden (granted with reduced numbers since the majority of the U.S. military is either in Iraq or in some form of rotation to or from there). And jenleigh, I'm not going to argue that things aren't going well in the locations that Karzai maintains control, but as the article that matteo linked to:
And linking to a report from the U.S. State Dept? Isn't that the place that just decided not to publish the annual terrorism report because the number of terror attacks is at an all time high? Too much truth for one little report, I guess.
posted by jperkins at 9:22 AM on April 26, 2005
The U.S. still has troops in Afghanistan. At the very least they're there carrying on the hunt for bin Laden (granted with reduced numbers since the majority of the U.S. military is either in Iraq or in some form of rotation to or from there). And jenleigh, I'm not going to argue that things aren't going well in the locations that Karzai maintains control, but as the article that matteo linked to:
the warlords have largely used their official positions to cement their own authority in the regions they control and have resisted attempts to disarm their personal militias or meld them into the national army.So, control of the countryside is maintained by the warlords just as it has for centuries.
And linking to a report from the U.S. State Dept? Isn't that the place that just decided not to publish the annual terrorism report because the number of terror attacks is at an all time high? Too much truth for one little report, I guess.
posted by jperkins at 9:22 AM on April 26, 2005
applying the blowtorch in our usual manner...is not going to advance the aim of curbing Sharia law. It's probably going to entrench it further for many people.
Good points, peacay. Which is why I hope the blowtorch is shirked in favor of bringing education & and secular humanitarian intervention to the country, and that the ball is picked up by more European countries who have the resources to do it. Otherwise it is primarily up to the Muslim community to internally sort the affairs of Sharia law. Let's hope they move forward.
Our lack of involvement there is quite obviously to the detriment of the people there.
To date there are 18,000 US troops in Afghanistan, and most of the them are not participating in Taliban-hunting adventures. They are setting up disease prevention centers, installing power grids, constructing shelters, mediating among tribal groups, building schools & hospitals....activities not juicy enough to make the nightly news. Again, there is a "damned if you do" scenario at work which doesn't help address the real quality-of-life problems facing Afghanistan. Clearly, they will continue improving with more international aid, not less. And no one—even the most die-hard interventionists—believes it will happen overnight, but clearly there has been progress.
--->
Good points, peacay. Which is why I hope the blowtorch is shirked in favor of bringing education & and secular humanitarian intervention to the country, and that the ball is picked up by more European countries who have the resources to do it. Otherwise it is primarily up to the Muslim community to internally sort the affairs of Sharia law. Let's hope they move forward.
Our lack of involvement there is quite obviously to the detriment of the people there.
To date there are 18,000 US troops in Afghanistan, and most of the them are not participating in Taliban-hunting adventures. They are setting up disease prevention centers, installing power grids, constructing shelters, mediating among tribal groups, building schools & hospitals....activities not juicy enough to make the nightly news. Again, there is a "damned if you do" scenario at work which doesn't help address the real quality-of-life problems facing Afghanistan. Clearly, they will continue improving with more international aid, not less. And no one—even the most die-hard interventionists—believes it will happen overnight, but clearly there has been progress.
--->
She can't leave the house without an all-covering blue burqa, many of her relatives are scandalised, but Shahida Hussain is preparing to stand for parliament anyway.posted by jenleigh at 9:32 AM on April 26, 2005
The 50-year-old women's rights activist who lives in the Taliban spiritual heartland of Afghanistan is one of at least two women in the southern city of Kandahar who are preparing to stand for elections in Afghanistan's parliamentary polls on September 18.
Khan says all of the women at the workshop have fathers and brothers or other relatives involved in the Milli Gund party or they wouldn't be allowed to get involved in politics, but he says it's a step in the right direction.
"At least the women are out of the home and finding out about politics," he says.
Getting party representatives to sit around the table and discuss politics is also a major step forward, Khan adds.
"We had a meeting here last week with eight political parties and people who had been thirsty to kill each other were sitting and talking. That's big progress," he says.
To date there are 18,000 US troops in Afghanistan, and most of the them are not participating in Taliban-hunting adventures. They are setting up disease prevention centers, installing power grids, constructing shelters, mediating among tribal groups, building schools & hospitals....activities not juicy enough to make the nightly news.
Yeah, we're just a bunch of Mother Teresas, aren't we?
Unsnarkily, let's not kid ourselves--America doesn't "nation build" unless there's a natural resource or a strategic interest to exploit. Due to location, we're keeping a presence there, but if American soldiers are doing such wonderful things for the Afghans, I'd love to see some pictures or stories. I'm sure there are some Potemkin style efforts, but get real. Soldiers are trained to kill, not dig irrigation canals.
posted by bardic at 9:52 AM on April 26, 2005
Yeah, we're just a bunch of Mother Teresas, aren't we?
Unsnarkily, let's not kid ourselves--America doesn't "nation build" unless there's a natural resource or a strategic interest to exploit. Due to location, we're keeping a presence there, but if American soldiers are doing such wonderful things for the Afghans, I'd love to see some pictures or stories. I'm sure there are some Potemkin style efforts, but get real. Soldiers are trained to kill, not dig irrigation canals.
posted by bardic at 9:52 AM on April 26, 2005
To date there are 18,000 US troops in Afghanistan, and most of the them are not participating in Taliban-hunting adventures.
Source, please.
posted by jperkins at 9:53 AM on April 26, 2005
Source, please.
posted by jperkins at 9:53 AM on April 26, 2005
(cont) Because if a significant number of those 18k aren't looking for bin Laden, who does the Bush administration have doing that? OJ?
posted by jperkins at 9:55 AM on April 26, 2005
posted by jperkins at 9:55 AM on April 26, 2005
Because if a significant number of those 18k aren't looking for bin Laden, who does the Bush administration have doing that? OJ?
Well, Afghanistan does have a golf course, and The Juice is an expert at searching those.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 10:29 AM on April 26, 2005
Well, Afghanistan does have a golf course, and The Juice is an expert at searching those.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 10:29 AM on April 26, 2005
Degree of involvement of Afghanistan in 9/11: strong. US Troops in Afghanistan: ~18,000.
Degree of involvement of Iraq in 9/11: nil. US Troops in Iraq: ~140,000.
Don't let anyone tell you that the administration lets its priorities be decided by real-world events, no matter how major.
posted by clevershark at 10:51 AM on April 26, 2005
Degree of involvement of Iraq in 9/11: nil. US Troops in Iraq: ~140,000.
Don't let anyone tell you that the administration lets its priorities be decided by real-world events, no matter how major.
posted by clevershark at 10:51 AM on April 26, 2005
You must be one of those activist Mefites.
posted by AlexReynolds at 10:55 AM on April 26, 2005
posted by AlexReynolds at 10:55 AM on April 26, 2005
"Think about a society that has gone from a Taliban-dominated society - where if you were a woman who spoke your mind, you were taken to a public square and whipped - to a free society . . . That's the difference between tyranny and freedom."
- George W. Bush, March 30th, 2005.
posted by insomnia_lj at 11:44 AM on April 26, 2005
- George W. Bush, March 30th, 2005.
posted by insomnia_lj at 11:44 AM on April 26, 2005
*Chief Qumby voice* That's nice work boys.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:45 AM on April 26, 2005
posted by Smedleyman at 11:45 AM on April 26, 2005
Jenleigh- You keep saying that this isn't about class, that it's about Islam and their "medieval" laws.
Two things: First off, the Dark Ages for Europe were particularly enlightened for Muslim countries. That's where you saw science and secularism advance the most in the world, while Europeans were still humping sheep and working within the flawed Aristolean paradigm for science. Things were, generally, better in places like Afghanistan during the middle ages.
Second, this is COMPLETELY an issue of class and culture. I realize that you have your axe what needs the grinding, but if we're comparing apples to apples, fundementalist Islam and fundementalist Christianity have the same message for women; likewise, enlightened Christianity and enlightened Islam have the same message of gender equality. Things like the burqa are CULTURAL. I'm not sure how to get that through to you, so I'll say it again: The repressive and inhumane treatment of women in patriarchal countries is CULTURAL. That's why you see women repressed in similar ways in both Northern (Muslim) and Southern (Christian and Animist) Nigeria. That's why you'll note Muslim scholars speaking to the effect that sharia is not supported by scripture. And that's why you'll note that poverty is the biggest factor in predicting whether a culture is going to oppress its women. Poverty breeds cruelty. And even in Western countries with large Middle Eastern populations, those populations tend to either be kept poor and isolated (Netherlands, Germany, France) or allowed to integrate, like in the US (I live near Dearborn and can vouch). Those that are kept poor and isolated are the ones that have the most violent reactions against female empowerment.
But Christ, stop trying to put the blame on Islam for this phenomenon. It's an excuse that the perpetrators use to justify their barbarism, just as when a Christian forces his wife to concieve against her will or beats her under the auspices of the Bible.
(Further, prior to the Taliban, Afghanistan used to be the most cosmopolitan of Islamic countries, with women doctors, lawyers and MPs. Those people were all exiled or killed. The ones that remained were the poor and the ignorant. It's like if suddenly, the backwards hardline Baptists from Alabama were all that was left in America, and they decided to legislate according to the Bible. It would take generations to recover, and it will in Afghanistan).
posted by klangklangston at 12:25 PM on April 26, 2005 [1 favorite]
Two things: First off, the Dark Ages for Europe were particularly enlightened for Muslim countries. That's where you saw science and secularism advance the most in the world, while Europeans were still humping sheep and working within the flawed Aristolean paradigm for science. Things were, generally, better in places like Afghanistan during the middle ages.
Second, this is COMPLETELY an issue of class and culture. I realize that you have your axe what needs the grinding, but if we're comparing apples to apples, fundementalist Islam and fundementalist Christianity have the same message for women; likewise, enlightened Christianity and enlightened Islam have the same message of gender equality. Things like the burqa are CULTURAL. I'm not sure how to get that through to you, so I'll say it again: The repressive and inhumane treatment of women in patriarchal countries is CULTURAL. That's why you see women repressed in similar ways in both Northern (Muslim) and Southern (Christian and Animist) Nigeria. That's why you'll note Muslim scholars speaking to the effect that sharia is not supported by scripture. And that's why you'll note that poverty is the biggest factor in predicting whether a culture is going to oppress its women. Poverty breeds cruelty. And even in Western countries with large Middle Eastern populations, those populations tend to either be kept poor and isolated (Netherlands, Germany, France) or allowed to integrate, like in the US (I live near Dearborn and can vouch). Those that are kept poor and isolated are the ones that have the most violent reactions against female empowerment.
But Christ, stop trying to put the blame on Islam for this phenomenon. It's an excuse that the perpetrators use to justify their barbarism, just as when a Christian forces his wife to concieve against her will or beats her under the auspices of the Bible.
(Further, prior to the Taliban, Afghanistan used to be the most cosmopolitan of Islamic countries, with women doctors, lawyers and MPs. Those people were all exiled or killed. The ones that remained were the poor and the ignorant. It's like if suddenly, the backwards hardline Baptists from Alabama were all that was left in America, and they decided to legislate according to the Bible. It would take generations to recover, and it will in Afghanistan).
posted by klangklangston at 12:25 PM on April 26, 2005 [1 favorite]
That's why you'll note Muslim scholars speaking to the effect that sharia is not supported by scripture.
You mean Islamic scholars that live in the fucking west. There is no such thing in the Islamic Republics, the supposed "pure" Islamic societies. Scholars that disagree there get murdered. Quit sugar coating this and giving these fucks excuses. You got a cite for this statement I would love to see it.
stop trying to put the blame on Islam for this phenomenon
Yeah silly. It's OUR fualt.
Fuck this. Seriously. It IS Islam fault. Who the fuck else is too blame? Jeebus christ if one more of you fuckers says something this stupid again I swear I will scream. Islam IS the culture. Until Isalm develops plurality WITHIN ITSELF... gives a real modern culture a chance to develop... then the few scholars who LIVE HERE, under the auspices and protection of Western Pluralism, are meaningless.
It is OUR culture that has given protection and growth and allows the few progressive Muslims to be able to contradict the 99.99999% of other clerics in the Middle East that SUPPORT sharia.
If you can prove otherwise be my guest.
There must be a massive popular Islamic movement to stop these repressive ideas... just as there was through the Enlightenment in the west. An enlightment now busily being reversed here.
It's like if suddenly, the backwards hardline Baptists from Alabama were all that was left in America
Uh... you gone outside lately? That IS just about all that is left in this country. The smart people are greatly outnumbered. It is only our "cultural" institutions that prevent an American Taliban Regime... that, habit, and laziness. Once pluralism takes hold it's simply easier to go with it. It takes great effort to go around killing people over beliefs.
posted by tkchrist at 4:05 PM on April 26, 2005
You mean Islamic scholars that live in the fucking west. There is no such thing in the Islamic Republics, the supposed "pure" Islamic societies. Scholars that disagree there get murdered. Quit sugar coating this and giving these fucks excuses. You got a cite for this statement I would love to see it.
stop trying to put the blame on Islam for this phenomenon
Yeah silly. It's OUR fualt.
Fuck this. Seriously. It IS Islam fault. Who the fuck else is too blame? Jeebus christ if one more of you fuckers says something this stupid again I swear I will scream. Islam IS the culture. Until Isalm develops plurality WITHIN ITSELF... gives a real modern culture a chance to develop... then the few scholars who LIVE HERE, under the auspices and protection of Western Pluralism, are meaningless.
It is OUR culture that has given protection and growth and allows the few progressive Muslims to be able to contradict the 99.99999% of other clerics in the Middle East that SUPPORT sharia.
If you can prove otherwise be my guest.
There must be a massive popular Islamic movement to stop these repressive ideas... just as there was through the Enlightenment in the west. An enlightment now busily being reversed here.
It's like if suddenly, the backwards hardline Baptists from Alabama were all that was left in America
Uh... you gone outside lately? That IS just about all that is left in this country. The smart people are greatly outnumbered. It is only our "cultural" institutions that prevent an American Taliban Regime... that, habit, and laziness. Once pluralism takes hold it's simply easier to go with it. It takes great effort to go around killing people over beliefs.
posted by tkchrist at 4:05 PM on April 26, 2005
Because we all want to be like the US???http://www.drugwarfacts.org/prison.htm
Always setting the example for the rest of the world!
posted by Merlin at 5:37 PM on April 26, 2005
Always setting the example for the rest of the world!
posted by Merlin at 5:37 PM on April 26, 2005
Merlin, learn to make links. And you're right. It's worse to have a lot of people in jail for drug offenses then to pelt a woman with rocks until she dies for having sex with someone. Yeah, I can see how there' s no upside to living in the U.S.
posted by Snyder at 10:22 PM on April 26, 2005
posted by Snyder at 10:22 PM on April 26, 2005
Ah, I see the usual nonbiased suspects have turned this into an occasion for nonbiased comment upon the One Special Religion, which of course is only one of the religions on their lengthy lists of religions marked for eventual nonbiased criticism.
~chuckle~
Merlin, learn to make links. And you're right. It's worse to have a lot of people in jail for drug offenses then to pelt a woman with rocks until she dies for having sex with someone.Yeah, I can see how there' s no upside to living in the U.S.
'Course, one may want to actually learn about the admittedly minuscule differences between truly complex words like "than" and "then" before giving moronic lectures on posting, but let's play along anyway, shall we?
Nothing like living in a civilized, upsided culture. Goddamned fundamentalist Islamic savages....
March 5, 2005. The Supreme Court abolished capital punishment for juvenile offenders yesterday....The ruling was the second time in three years the court had carved out a new categorical exception to the death penalty, having banned capital punishment for the moderately mentally retarded in [the so-incredibly-fucking-early-in-the-history-of-our nation/culture....emphasis-added year of] 2002.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 11:35 PM on April 26, 2005 [1 favorite]
~chuckle~
Merlin, learn to make links. And you're right. It's worse to have a lot of people in jail for drug offenses then to pelt a woman with rocks until she dies for having sex with someone.Yeah, I can see how there' s no upside to living in the U.S.
'Course, one may want to actually learn about the admittedly minuscule differences between truly complex words like "than" and "then" before giving moronic lectures on posting, but let's play along anyway, shall we?
Nothing like living in a civilized, upsided culture. Goddamned fundamentalist Islamic savages....
March 5, 2005. The Supreme Court abolished capital punishment for juvenile offenders yesterday....The ruling was the second time in three years the court had carved out a new categorical exception to the death penalty, having banned capital punishment for the moderately mentally retarded in [the so-incredibly-fucking-early-in-the-history-of-our nation/culture....emphasis-added year of] 2002.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 11:35 PM on April 26, 2005 [1 favorite]
....And the usual tedious contributors have shown up with the usual tedious "B-b-b-b-u-t Christianity!" in a thread having nothing whatsover to do with Christianity. Golly, foldy, you sure do make yourself scarce in threads which blame Christianity alone for the world's problems. I'm sure it's not hypocrisy at work or anything. And you certainly don't ever show up with examples of how Islamic countries are three times worse.
Go back to your hyper-PC, disingenuous reverence of The Other, just as they beat and subjugate their women behind closed doors. After all, it's just their way. Interesting how you don't ever have the balls to condemn it.
posted by dhoyt at 5:51 AM on April 27, 2005
Go back to your hyper-PC, disingenuous reverence of The Other, just as they beat and subjugate their women behind closed doors. After all, it's just their way. Interesting how you don't ever have the balls to condemn it.
posted by dhoyt at 5:51 AM on April 27, 2005
TKChrist: Ah, good to see another one of your tirades.
" You mean Islamic scholars that live in the fucking west. There is no such thing in the Islamic Republics, the supposed "pure" Islamic societies. Scholars that disagree there get murdered. Quit sugar coating this and giving these fucks excuses. You got a cite for this statement I would love to see it."
The Sharia that governs culture is primarily based on the Hadith and Sira, not on the Koran. The only Sharia that is given in the Koran is the five pillars of Islam, and the specific usage of Sharia is with regard to prayer practices.
As for Islamic Republics, which do you mean? Do you mean Lebenon? Do you mean Pakistan? Do you mean Syria? Do you mean Saudi Arabia? Do you mean Iran? None of those has the same set of laws, and even the "purest," Iran, doesn't use an Islamic law that is particularly tied to what is understood by fundementalist Muslims (especially with regard to the power structure and economics). All of the cititions that I've found have been in English, as my Arabic is poor. Perhaps you can find a citation from a Muslim who is not a fundementalist extremist who agrees with you?
"Yeah silly. It's OUR fualt (sic)."
Wow, that's exactly what I said. Your reading comprehension is through the roof today! CULTURAL, you fucking moron. Do I have to use a blink tag?
" Fuck this. Seriously. It IS Islam fault. Who the fuck else is too blame? Jeebus christ if one more of you fuckers says something this stupid again I swear I will scream. Islam IS the culture. Until Isalm develops plurality WITHIN ITSELF... gives a real modern culture a chance to develop... then the few scholars who LIVE HERE, under the auspices and protection of Western Pluralism, are meaningless."
Um... Cultural and tribal conditions combined with abject poverty? Islam does have internal plurality. But, of course, you already knew that. You're only acting like an ignorant ass to prove some sort of point, right? I mean, only a moron would put forth that the Islam that is practiced in Malaysia and Indonesia is the same as the Islam that's practiced in Iran, right? Or that Lebenonese Islam is the same as the Wahabism practiced in Saudi Arabia. Or that Turkish Islam is the same as Sufis in India. You wouldn't be that fucking retarded, would you, TK? Because I might have to scream. You know, of course, that organizations like the PLO can simultaneously want to blow up Israelis and still promote a secular view of Islam in Palestine, right? So, it's not just people in the States who have different views on the future of Islam.
"It is OUR culture that has given protection and growth and allows the few progressive Muslims to be able to contradict the 99.99999% of other clerics in the Middle East that SUPPORT sharia."
Really? Then Muhammad Kamaruzzaman must live in the West, not in an Islamic nation, correct? I mean, after all, he just wrote an article (which I can't seem to find in English) about how Islam requires democracy. No, wait, he's part of the Bangladesh government. And c'mon, if you want me to cite mine, cite your bullshit too.
"There must be a massive popular Islamic movement to stop these repressive ideas... just as there was through the Enlightenment in the west. An enlightment now busily being reversed here."
It's called ijtihad. Look it up. There is a growing movement in countries like Lebenon, Pakistan and Malaysia that is fighting against the fundementalist, Wahabian view as we speak. Unfortunately, dolts like you make it harder for those movements to be supported by the west without damaging domestic credibility.
" Uh... you gone outside lately? That IS just about all that is left in this country. The smart people are greatly outnumbered. It is only our "cultural" institutions that prevent an American Taliban Regime... that, habit, and laziness. Once pluralism takes hold it's simply easier to go with it. It takes great effort to go around killing people over beliefs."
Uh... Do you have anything aside from apopleptic hyperbole? My state voted for Kerry. And guess what, so did 49% of the population. Maybe even more.
I realize that you start whipping yourself into a froth in order to justify your ranting bullshit, but c'mon. At least have one intelligent opinion, you jackass.
DHoyt: A comparison of fundementalist Islam and fundementalist Christianity is pretty apt, especially when talking about how it's cultural practices which drive the barbarous stonings. I feel no compuction against saying that the stoning was wrong, but also that an enlightened interpretation of Islamic texts doesn't support it any more than an enlightened interpretation of Christian texts supports the same thing.
posted by klangklangston at 7:17 AM on April 27, 2005 [1 favorite]
" You mean Islamic scholars that live in the fucking west. There is no such thing in the Islamic Republics, the supposed "pure" Islamic societies. Scholars that disagree there get murdered. Quit sugar coating this and giving these fucks excuses. You got a cite for this statement I would love to see it."
The Sharia that governs culture is primarily based on the Hadith and Sira, not on the Koran. The only Sharia that is given in the Koran is the five pillars of Islam, and the specific usage of Sharia is with regard to prayer practices.
As for Islamic Republics, which do you mean? Do you mean Lebenon? Do you mean Pakistan? Do you mean Syria? Do you mean Saudi Arabia? Do you mean Iran? None of those has the same set of laws, and even the "purest," Iran, doesn't use an Islamic law that is particularly tied to what is understood by fundementalist Muslims (especially with regard to the power structure and economics). All of the cititions that I've found have been in English, as my Arabic is poor. Perhaps you can find a citation from a Muslim who is not a fundementalist extremist who agrees with you?
"Yeah silly. It's OUR fualt (sic)."
Wow, that's exactly what I said. Your reading comprehension is through the roof today! CULTURAL, you fucking moron. Do I have to use a blink tag?
" Fuck this. Seriously. It IS Islam fault. Who the fuck else is too blame? Jeebus christ if one more of you fuckers says something this stupid again I swear I will scream. Islam IS the culture. Until Isalm develops plurality WITHIN ITSELF... gives a real modern culture a chance to develop... then the few scholars who LIVE HERE, under the auspices and protection of Western Pluralism, are meaningless."
Um... Cultural and tribal conditions combined with abject poverty? Islam does have internal plurality. But, of course, you already knew that. You're only acting like an ignorant ass to prove some sort of point, right? I mean, only a moron would put forth that the Islam that is practiced in Malaysia and Indonesia is the same as the Islam that's practiced in Iran, right? Or that Lebenonese Islam is the same as the Wahabism practiced in Saudi Arabia. Or that Turkish Islam is the same as Sufis in India. You wouldn't be that fucking retarded, would you, TK? Because I might have to scream. You know, of course, that organizations like the PLO can simultaneously want to blow up Israelis and still promote a secular view of Islam in Palestine, right? So, it's not just people in the States who have different views on the future of Islam.
"It is OUR culture that has given protection and growth and allows the few progressive Muslims to be able to contradict the 99.99999% of other clerics in the Middle East that SUPPORT sharia."
Really? Then Muhammad Kamaruzzaman must live in the West, not in an Islamic nation, correct? I mean, after all, he just wrote an article (which I can't seem to find in English) about how Islam requires democracy. No, wait, he's part of the Bangladesh government. And c'mon, if you want me to cite mine, cite your bullshit too.
"There must be a massive popular Islamic movement to stop these repressive ideas... just as there was through the Enlightenment in the west. An enlightment now busily being reversed here."
It's called ijtihad. Look it up. There is a growing movement in countries like Lebenon, Pakistan and Malaysia that is fighting against the fundementalist, Wahabian view as we speak. Unfortunately, dolts like you make it harder for those movements to be supported by the west without damaging domestic credibility.
" Uh... you gone outside lately? That IS just about all that is left in this country. The smart people are greatly outnumbered. It is only our "cultural" institutions that prevent an American Taliban Regime... that, habit, and laziness. Once pluralism takes hold it's simply easier to go with it. It takes great effort to go around killing people over beliefs."
Uh... Do you have anything aside from apopleptic hyperbole? My state voted for Kerry. And guess what, so did 49% of the population. Maybe even more.
I realize that you start whipping yourself into a froth in order to justify your ranting bullshit, but c'mon. At least have one intelligent opinion, you jackass.
DHoyt: A comparison of fundementalist Islam and fundementalist Christianity is pretty apt, especially when talking about how it's cultural practices which drive the barbarous stonings. I feel no compuction against saying that the stoning was wrong, but also that an enlightened interpretation of Islamic texts doesn't support it any more than an enlightened interpretation of Christian texts supports the same thing.
posted by klangklangston at 7:17 AM on April 27, 2005 [1 favorite]
Interesting how you don't ever have the balls to condemn it.
Yeah, condemning things takes balls.
posted by sonofsamiam at 7:58 AM on April 27, 2005
Yeah, condemning things takes balls.
posted by sonofsamiam at 7:58 AM on April 27, 2005
A comparison of fundementalist [sic—since you're playing that game] Islam and fundementalist Christianity is pretty apt, especially when talking about how it's cultural practices which drive the barbarous stonings.
So next time the thread is about how Christians use the bible to defend their position on gay marriage, I assume you'll race over to point out how Christianity actually has a rich history and how, in fact, Islamic governments are really no better—even if the topic of Islamic governments has nothing to do with the thread?
Right.
And re: capital punishment for youth/retarded. The analogy holds no water. There is a considerable, elaborate legal process which goes on to determine guilt for crimes like murder. And obviously, if such a law is deemed barbaric enough, it can be overturned without relying on the Bible for guidance. Barbaric as Western capital punishment may be, I can't seem to remember the last time a woman was dragged into the street and murdered by zealots while people stood around yelling, "Praise Jesus". Sure, we could clumsily, desperately try to think of comparable examples all day if we wanted. But it has fuck-all to do with the thread.
Look: no one at MeFi, minus a few, can handle criticisms of Islam. Ever notice how any thread even mentioning Islam gets ten speedy, contrarian, off-topic comparisons to Christianity right out of the gate? Pitiful. Makes jenleigh's post about whimpering PC behavior and apologism even more apropos. Hell look at the title of this thread: "A job well done". The poster had more interest in pissing on the military's presence in Afghanistan than giving a shit that some woman who got stoned to death.
posted by dhoyt at 8:33 AM on April 27, 2005
So next time the thread is about how Christians use the bible to defend their position on gay marriage, I assume you'll race over to point out how Christianity actually has a rich history and how, in fact, Islamic governments are really no better—even if the topic of Islamic governments has nothing to do with the thread?
Right.
And re: capital punishment for youth/retarded. The analogy holds no water. There is a considerable, elaborate legal process which goes on to determine guilt for crimes like murder. And obviously, if such a law is deemed barbaric enough, it can be overturned without relying on the Bible for guidance. Barbaric as Western capital punishment may be, I can't seem to remember the last time a woman was dragged into the street and murdered by zealots while people stood around yelling, "Praise Jesus". Sure, we could clumsily, desperately try to think of comparable examples all day if we wanted. But it has fuck-all to do with the thread.
Look: no one at MeFi, minus a few, can handle criticisms of Islam. Ever notice how any thread even mentioning Islam gets ten speedy, contrarian, off-topic comparisons to Christianity right out of the gate? Pitiful. Makes jenleigh's post about whimpering PC behavior and apologism even more apropos. Hell look at the title of this thread: "A job well done". The poster had more interest in pissing on the military's presence in Afghanistan than giving a shit that some woman who got stoned to death.
posted by dhoyt at 8:33 AM on April 27, 2005
Almost as pitiful as the incessant and skull-drillingly tedious assertions about MeFi'ers, and how liberal, or apologetic, or close-minded, or unpatriotic, or whatever they are. (At least, as compared to you, huh?)
Who exactly are you talking to, dhoyt? You're just making yourself feel good and superior, pretty much just like the people with the Christian Chip on their shoulders.
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:40 AM on April 27, 2005
Who exactly are you talking to, dhoyt? You're just making yourself feel good and superior, pretty much just like the people with the Christian Chip on their shoulders.
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:40 AM on April 27, 2005
DHoyt- I know that it pains you, but try to keep your responses to me based on what I said.
The next time that fundamentalist Christians use the Bible to defend their opposition to gay marriage, I'll have no problem pointing out that many Christian denominations believe otherwise. And while Islam has a rich history of valuing women, Christianity doesn't exactly have a rich history of valuing gays. (Christianity, through the Old Testament, also includes plenty of opportunities for stoning. But the only governments that are officially Christian, that I can think of, are in the West, making it, again, a cultural prohibition.)
But I don't know why I'm even bothering to engage you, as your first comment was an obvious troll, and while your vocabulary has improved, your argument hasn't.
posted by klangklangston at 9:55 AM on April 27, 2005 [1 favorite]
The next time that fundamentalist Christians use the Bible to defend their opposition to gay marriage, I'll have no problem pointing out that many Christian denominations believe otherwise. And while Islam has a rich history of valuing women, Christianity doesn't exactly have a rich history of valuing gays. (Christianity, through the Old Testament, also includes plenty of opportunities for stoning. But the only governments that are officially Christian, that I can think of, are in the West, making it, again, a cultural prohibition.)
But I don't know why I'm even bothering to engage you, as your first comment was an obvious troll, and while your vocabulary has improved, your argument hasn't.
posted by klangklangston at 9:55 AM on April 27, 2005 [1 favorite]
Go back to your hyper-PC, disingenuous reverence of The Other, just as they beat and subjugate their women behind closed doors. After all, it's just their way. Interesting how you don't ever have the balls to condemn it.
What an incredible strawman, dhoyt. No one has applauded Islam's treatment of women here. You really are pathetic and sad.
posted by AlexReynolds at 1:35 PM on April 27, 2005
What an incredible strawman, dhoyt. No one has applauded Islam's treatment of women here. You really are pathetic and sad.
posted by AlexReynolds at 1:35 PM on April 27, 2005
Hey, f_and_m, put some more words in my mouth you fucking shitstain. I know you justlove your righteousness and your sheer moral superiority that you just can't help yourself from making yourself feel greater by making shit up. But making insipid and illogical comparisons while being an apologist for murder gives you the ego boost trifecta! I mean, your weak argumentation and smug, pompous behavior towards anyone who dare disagree with your so-called "respect for life" couldn't have any other point, could it? Unless you were a sniveling ideologue whose self-awareness and thought capacity didn't extend beyond their navel. In any event, it doesn't matter. Have fun dropping a turd in the thread and then running away as usual, asshole.
On preview: Alex, no one has come out and said they love stoning the ladies, but how can you look at foldy's example , and not think he's being an apologist in order to cast America (and other posters, including me,) in a (in this case unnecessary,) villainous light? What I see from that he is doing is that he's calling me a bigot because I believe that it is preferable to live in America then either one of the theocratic states of the middle east, or a state that highs a highly entrenched, reactionary and brutal culture. His comparison between the U.S.'s abolishing of execution of juvenile and retarded offenders is comparable is not only insulting to me, but that is insignificant to the insult and dismissal of anyone who suffers and is oppressed in such lands. As I said before, he's either an egotist of the highest order, or a unreflective, unthinking ideologue. If you can offer a different explanation of his behavior, please, tell me. (I'm not being sarcastic, maybe I'm wrong about him, I just can't see how.)
posted by Snyder at 1:55 PM on April 27, 2005
On preview: Alex, no one has come out and said they love stoning the ladies, but how can you look at foldy's example , and not think he's being an apologist in order to cast America (and other posters, including me,) in a (in this case unnecessary,) villainous light? What I see from that he is doing is that he's calling me a bigot because I believe that it is preferable to live in America then either one of the theocratic states of the middle east, or a state that highs a highly entrenched, reactionary and brutal culture. His comparison between the U.S.'s abolishing of execution of juvenile and retarded offenders is comparable is not only insulting to me, but that is insignificant to the insult and dismissal of anyone who suffers and is oppressed in such lands. As I said before, he's either an egotist of the highest order, or a unreflective, unthinking ideologue. If you can offer a different explanation of his behavior, please, tell me. (I'm not being sarcastic, maybe I'm wrong about him, I just can't see how.)
posted by Snyder at 1:55 PM on April 27, 2005
What an incredible strawman, dhoyt. No one has applauded Islam's treatment of women here. You really are pathetic and sad.
I didn't say 'applaud', you fucktard. Nice strawman yourself. I said to harbor unquestioning 'reverence' for Islam as though it never had a fault, meanwhile criticizing others like jenleigh for supposed 'bias'. What a joke. I've been around here for six years and not once—ever—have any of the usual suspects who ridicule Xtianity thread after thread shown a shred of objectivity when it comes to Islam and the myriad douchebags who blow themselves up—not to mention thousands of innocent bystanders—in the name of their religion. Or beat their wives. Or kill their wives. Or stone gays to death. You know, the very kinds of fundamentalists they are supposed to be objecting to. No, when a harsh light is shone on Islam, the usual smarmy contrarians go back to trembling and cowering, just exactly as you did after spouting your embarassing "just move on" sentiment about 1 million dead Armenians, after which you were too humiliated to offer any further rationalization, because there wasn't any. Ugh. It doesn't even matter what the thread topics are anymore. They all amount to "Bub-b-b-b-but what about Xtianity?" What a fucking load.
posted by dhoyt at 2:18 PM on April 27, 2005
I didn't say 'applaud', you fucktard. Nice strawman yourself. I said to harbor unquestioning 'reverence' for Islam as though it never had a fault, meanwhile criticizing others like jenleigh for supposed 'bias'. What a joke. I've been around here for six years and not once—ever—have any of the usual suspects who ridicule Xtianity thread after thread shown a shred of objectivity when it comes to Islam and the myriad douchebags who blow themselves up—not to mention thousands of innocent bystanders—in the name of their religion. Or beat their wives. Or kill their wives. Or stone gays to death. You know, the very kinds of fundamentalists they are supposed to be objecting to. No, when a harsh light is shone on Islam, the usual smarmy contrarians go back to trembling and cowering, just exactly as you did after spouting your embarassing "just move on" sentiment about 1 million dead Armenians, after which you were too humiliated to offer any further rationalization, because there wasn't any. Ugh. It doesn't even matter what the thread topics are anymore. They all amount to "Bub-b-b-b-but what about Xtianity?" What a fucking load.
posted by dhoyt at 2:18 PM on April 27, 2005
Oh, and "a job well done" (per the title tag) to those who successfully diverted the topic of a woman being stoned to death to:
• Hamid Karzai's alleged pedophilia
• Christian activist Michael Marcavage
• Matthew Shepard
• alexreynold's troll du jour
• the US's "lack of involvement" in Afghanistan
• Executing the retarded
• The US drug war
Brilliant.
Any more diversions? Hell, we could still cover gun control in Texas, teen pregnancies among Presbyterians, tort reform, unicorns, you name it! Just please no more...uncomfortable stories about douchebags men who stone their wives to death, per Islamic "justice".
posted by dhoyt at 2:33 PM on April 27, 2005
• Hamid Karzai's alleged pedophilia
• Christian activist Michael Marcavage
• Matthew Shepard
• alexreynold's troll du jour
• the US's "lack of involvement" in Afghanistan
• Executing the retarded
• The US drug war
Brilliant.
Any more diversions? Hell, we could still cover gun control in Texas, teen pregnancies among Presbyterians, tort reform, unicorns, you name it! Just please no more...uncomfortable stories about douchebags men who stone their wives to death, per Islamic "justice".
posted by dhoyt at 2:33 PM on April 27, 2005
Dhoyt, you jackass. Who's holding Islam in unquestioned reverence here? No one. You just wanna do your little dance over how maligned the Christians are in other threads, and blame Islam for everything. C'mon, Dhoyt, lay it in there: I haven't seen you give one iota of condemnation to cultural causes for human rights abuses. If there's this huge conspiracy to tar Christianity while giving Islam a pass, as supported by a failure to adequately condemn it (which, as an aside, I hope you realize how fallacious your argument is), then surely you support, say, Christians who engage in female genital mutilation, correct? Since, you know, you haven't condemned them.
This was tribal justice, not Islamic justice, and your own prejudices are getting in the way of you seeing that. Or here's a thought: how many stonings have happened in Western Muslim communities? I mean, if it's an Islamic problem, that would have happened all over, right? Maybe that's too hard, what with those not being predominantly Muslim countries. What about in Malaysia or Indonesia? How many stonings have happened there?
Go back to your poorly-lit room and grumble some more, you wank, since you're not gonna convince anyone of anything with your precognative hatred of Islam.
posted by klangklangston at 4:05 PM on April 27, 2005 [1 favorite]
This was tribal justice, not Islamic justice, and your own prejudices are getting in the way of you seeing that. Or here's a thought: how many stonings have happened in Western Muslim communities? I mean, if it's an Islamic problem, that would have happened all over, right? Maybe that's too hard, what with those not being predominantly Muslim countries. What about in Malaysia or Indonesia? How many stonings have happened there?
Go back to your poorly-lit room and grumble some more, you wank, since you're not gonna convince anyone of anything with your precognative hatred of Islam.
posted by klangklangston at 4:05 PM on April 27, 2005 [1 favorite]
TKChrist: Ah, good to see another one of your tirades.
Yeah. I was in a bad mood yesterday. In a worse one today. Feels GOOD to lash out.
I see you didn't post a SINGLE cite to support your pseudo intellectual opinion. But you WANT me to? LOL.
Cultural and tribal conditions combined with abject poverty
What IS culture? Where does it come from? God you love to talk and talk and talk around an issue but refuse to address what is in front of your face. Culture comes from religion.
Why dance around it so much. What are you afraid of?
You want Born Again Christians to except homosexuals, you don't blame culture at large. You don't blame jews. Or communists. You target Born Again Christianity. You ask Christians to change.
For gods sake, if people in predominately Catholic countries are against Abortion and Gay marriage and that, coincidentally, is the official doctrine of the Catholic church... what?... you gonna blame your abstract disconnected version of CULTURE.
No. It's fucking Catholicism that is to blame. It is a CATHOLIC culture. CATHOLICS must change.
Yes. Poverty players a role. But you seriously think that it's just MONEY makes people more enlightened? How rich is Bush's family again?
The Sharia that enforce despotic codes - common to many if not MOST Islamic countries - that injure and oppress women and homosexuals COME from Islamic culture, ergo Islam.
ijtihad or interpretation. I LOOKED it up and you know what? 80% of the links were composed by institutions BASED in the west - with members living in the west. Just like I said. And the percentage of Muslims involved in reform efforts in the middle east in miniscule. The exception does not prove the rule.
Islam must change. THEN the cultures will change. It will take a conscious effort by INDIVIDUAL Muslims to do this.
You think by screaming at the choir your gonna get the organist to change his tune? You think this bullshit you spew does ANYTHING. It doesn't. You are INERT. INERT. Your evasive circular logic does nothing. You really DON'T want things to be better for anybody or you'd put the blame where it does do good - on the source of the problem.
PS. I note you dive right in bad mouthing me - but you READ my posts don't you? Get your attention. You can't help yourself, can you?
Eh-hem. I WIN Fucktard.
posted by tkchrist at 6:46 PM on April 27, 2005
Yeah. I was in a bad mood yesterday. In a worse one today. Feels GOOD to lash out.
I see you didn't post a SINGLE cite to support your pseudo intellectual opinion. But you WANT me to? LOL.
Cultural and tribal conditions combined with abject poverty
What IS culture? Where does it come from? God you love to talk and talk and talk around an issue but refuse to address what is in front of your face. Culture comes from religion.
Why dance around it so much. What are you afraid of?
You want Born Again Christians to except homosexuals, you don't blame culture at large. You don't blame jews. Or communists. You target Born Again Christianity. You ask Christians to change.
For gods sake, if people in predominately Catholic countries are against Abortion and Gay marriage and that, coincidentally, is the official doctrine of the Catholic church... what?... you gonna blame your abstract disconnected version of CULTURE.
No. It's fucking Catholicism that is to blame. It is a CATHOLIC culture. CATHOLICS must change.
Yes. Poverty players a role. But you seriously think that it's just MONEY makes people more enlightened? How rich is Bush's family again?
The Sharia that enforce despotic codes - common to many if not MOST Islamic countries - that injure and oppress women and homosexuals COME from Islamic culture, ergo Islam.
ijtihad or interpretation. I LOOKED it up and you know what? 80% of the links were composed by institutions BASED in the west - with members living in the west. Just like I said. And the percentage of Muslims involved in reform efforts in the middle east in miniscule. The exception does not prove the rule.
Islam must change. THEN the cultures will change. It will take a conscious effort by INDIVIDUAL Muslims to do this.
You think by screaming at the choir your gonna get the organist to change his tune? You think this bullshit you spew does ANYTHING. It doesn't. You are INERT. INERT. Your evasive circular logic does nothing. You really DON'T want things to be better for anybody or you'd put the blame where it does do good - on the source of the problem.
PS. I note you dive right in bad mouthing me - but you READ my posts don't you? Get your attention. You can't help yourself, can you?
Eh-hem. I WIN Fucktard.
posted by tkchrist at 6:46 PM on April 27, 2005
I mean, if it's an Islamic problem, that would have happened all over, right? Maybe that's too hard, what with those not being predominantly Muslim countries. What about in Malaysia or Indonesia? How many stonings have happened there?
Malaysian Islamist calls for stonings
The spiritual leader of Malaysia's main Islamist opposition party, Pas, has called for people convicted of sex crimes to be stoned to death in public.
Malaysia mulls public flogging
Malaysia is to consider introducing public flogging as a punishment for child rape. The suggestion follows the rape and murder of two 10-year-old girls in the space of a week.
Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi has demanded swift action in the wake of the killings.
A Code of Their Own
A Malaysian state wants to enforce Taliban-style punishments, defying the nation's secular leaders
In July, the state assembly passed a comprehensive set of new Islamic laws and called for punishments familiar from the Taliban's days in Afghanistan: whipping for a range of relatively minor offenses such as consumption of alcohol; stoning to death for adulterers; hand amputation for theft. It's all part of a drive by the conservative Islamic Party of Malaysia (PAS), which governs Terengganu and is the country's main opposition party, to create what it calls a "pious, religious, disciplined, dignified, noble and trustworthy society."
Extreme Sharia
To the extent that the phenomenon of expanding sharia has drawn Western attention, it has focused almost exclusively on women's dress codes and the draconian punishments of amputation s and stonings, such as used by the Taliban. Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim state and historically the one most tolerant of religious minorities, is confronting the spread of extreme sharia in its extensive archipelago that expands important Pacific trade routes; there, too, the US lacks a policy. The U.S. is working hard to reconstruct a liberated Afghanistan - it remains an open question whether sharia will extend to criminal law.
Stoning, amputation on Malaysia political agenda
The Muslim holy men who rule Malaysia's northeast corner call it "God's Law" and they want to use it, but Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad's government is standing in the way. Next month, Parti Islam se-Malaysia (PAS) plans to pass laws specifying stoning to death for adulterers and amputation of limbs for thieves in Terengganu state, just as it did in neighboring Kelantan a decade ago.
"This is the law of Allah. These are the laws of Muslims," said Dr. Lo' Lo' Haj Mohamad Ghazali, one of the few women sitting on PAS's central committee.
MALAYSIAN OFFICIAL PROMOTES STONING IN PUBLIC
Nik Aziz Nik Mat, the spiritual leader of Pas, Malaysia's main Islamic opposition party, announced his support for restoring public stoning to penalise criminals.
Death by public stoning is a penalty sanctioned under Islamic laws for persons convicted of the death penalty. While Pas approved the government's recent moves to impose tougher measures to curb criminality, the party believes the penalty for persons found guilty of rape of incest are not enough. To date, such criminals are sentenced to receive whips (no certain number detailed) and up to 30 years in jail. It was originally proposed that these offenders be meted the death penalty, especially if the victims are children, but the government eventually decided to withhold the death penalty altogether.
Amnesty International: Malaysia
In August the government announced that the application of Shari'a law would be standardized in all states. The announcement followed earlier calls by the government of Kelantan state, headed by the opposition Parti Islam Sa-Malaysia, Islamic Party of Malaysia, for punishments of amputation and stoning, and the arrest by Selangor state religious authorities of three Muslim contestants in a beauty pageant.
Moderate Islam faces challenge in Indonesia
At least seven rural areas have elected leaders who have established some mild form of Shariah over the past three years. That is seen as a way to fight the endemic corruption that has drained Indonesia's economy. To reduce prostitution, one town has set an evening curfew for women. Other regions are contemplating criminal punishments, such as cutting off the hands of thieves or stoning adulterers.
To many Southeast Asian Muslims, Islam is born again—as a political force
This increasing politicization of Islam does have societywide consequences as more powerful clerics and Muslim politicians stridently demand that Islamic law become the law of the land. Malaysia and Indonesia, Southeast Asia's only Muslim-majority nations and traditionally exemplars of openness and diversity, are facing the consequences of Muslim political parties flexing their muscles and winning over the masses.
-----------------
Guess all these things must mean I have "precognative [sic] hatred" for Islam. Right. Just like all those those terrorists must "hate freedom" because they don't like our foreign policy. It sounds no less dumb when you turn it around.
And what Tkchrist said. In spades.
posted by dhoyt at 8:16 PM on April 27, 2005
Malaysian Islamist calls for stonings
The spiritual leader of Malaysia's main Islamist opposition party, Pas, has called for people convicted of sex crimes to be stoned to death in public.
Malaysia mulls public flogging
Malaysia is to consider introducing public flogging as a punishment for child rape. The suggestion follows the rape and murder of two 10-year-old girls in the space of a week.
Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi has demanded swift action in the wake of the killings.
A Code of Their Own
A Malaysian state wants to enforce Taliban-style punishments, defying the nation's secular leaders
In July, the state assembly passed a comprehensive set of new Islamic laws and called for punishments familiar from the Taliban's days in Afghanistan: whipping for a range of relatively minor offenses such as consumption of alcohol; stoning to death for adulterers; hand amputation for theft. It's all part of a drive by the conservative Islamic Party of Malaysia (PAS), which governs Terengganu and is the country's main opposition party, to create what it calls a "pious, religious, disciplined, dignified, noble and trustworthy society."
Extreme Sharia
To the extent that the phenomenon of expanding sharia has drawn Western attention, it has focused almost exclusively on women's dress codes and the draconian punishments of amputation s and stonings, such as used by the Taliban. Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim state and historically the one most tolerant of religious minorities, is confronting the spread of extreme sharia in its extensive archipelago that expands important Pacific trade routes; there, too, the US lacks a policy. The U.S. is working hard to reconstruct a liberated Afghanistan - it remains an open question whether sharia will extend to criminal law.
Stoning, amputation on Malaysia political agenda
The Muslim holy men who rule Malaysia's northeast corner call it "God's Law" and they want to use it, but Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad's government is standing in the way. Next month, Parti Islam se-Malaysia (PAS) plans to pass laws specifying stoning to death for adulterers and amputation of limbs for thieves in Terengganu state, just as it did in neighboring Kelantan a decade ago.
"This is the law of Allah. These are the laws of Muslims," said Dr. Lo' Lo' Haj Mohamad Ghazali, one of the few women sitting on PAS's central committee.
MALAYSIAN OFFICIAL PROMOTES STONING IN PUBLIC
Nik Aziz Nik Mat, the spiritual leader of Pas, Malaysia's main Islamic opposition party, announced his support for restoring public stoning to penalise criminals.
Death by public stoning is a penalty sanctioned under Islamic laws for persons convicted of the death penalty. While Pas approved the government's recent moves to impose tougher measures to curb criminality, the party believes the penalty for persons found guilty of rape of incest are not enough. To date, such criminals are sentenced to receive whips (no certain number detailed) and up to 30 years in jail. It was originally proposed that these offenders be meted the death penalty, especially if the victims are children, but the government eventually decided to withhold the death penalty altogether.
Amnesty International: Malaysia
In August the government announced that the application of Shari'a law would be standardized in all states. The announcement followed earlier calls by the government of Kelantan state, headed by the opposition Parti Islam Sa-Malaysia, Islamic Party of Malaysia, for punishments of amputation and stoning, and the arrest by Selangor state religious authorities of three Muslim contestants in a beauty pageant.
Moderate Islam faces challenge in Indonesia
At least seven rural areas have elected leaders who have established some mild form of Shariah over the past three years. That is seen as a way to fight the endemic corruption that has drained Indonesia's economy. To reduce prostitution, one town has set an evening curfew for women. Other regions are contemplating criminal punishments, such as cutting off the hands of thieves or stoning adulterers.
To many Southeast Asian Muslims, Islam is born again—as a political force
This increasing politicization of Islam does have societywide consequences as more powerful clerics and Muslim politicians stridently demand that Islamic law become the law of the land. Malaysia and Indonesia, Southeast Asia's only Muslim-majority nations and traditionally exemplars of openness and diversity, are facing the consequences of Muslim political parties flexing their muscles and winning over the masses.
-----------------
Guess all these things must mean I have "precognative [sic] hatred" for Islam. Right. Just like all those those terrorists must "hate freedom" because they don't like our foreign policy. It sounds no less dumb when you turn it around.
And what Tkchrist said. In spades.
posted by dhoyt at 8:16 PM on April 27, 2005
I've been around here for six years and not once—ever—have any of the usual suspects who ridicule Xtianity thread after thread shown a shred of objectivity when it comes to Islam and the myriad douchebags who blow themselves up—not to mention thousands of innocent bystanders—in the name of their religion. Or beat their wives. Or kill their wives. Or stone gays to death.
And you are still cannot acknowledging you're beating up a strawman!
NO ONE IS APPLAUDING ISLAM FOR THEIR TREATMENT OF WOMEN. CRITICISM OF FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANITY IS NOT THE SAME AS APPLUDING ISLAM FOR THEIR TREATMENT OF WOMEN.
Get these simple concepts in your fucking skull, already, which frankly HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL POST.
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2005
And you are still cannot acknowledging you're beating up a strawman!
NO ONE IS APPLAUDING ISLAM FOR THEIR TREATMENT OF WOMEN. CRITICISM OF FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANITY IS NOT THE SAME AS APPLUDING ISLAM FOR THEIR TREATMENT OF WOMEN.
Get these simple concepts in your fucking skull, already, which frankly HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL POST.
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:50 PM on April 27, 2005
• alexreynold's troll du jour
Someone disagreeing with you is not trolling, dhoyt, remember? Or is it just when it's not you?
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:59 PM on April 27, 2005
Someone disagreeing with you is not trolling, dhoyt, remember? Or is it just when it's not you?
posted by AlexReynolds at 9:59 PM on April 27, 2005
Alex, when did dhoyt say anyone was applauding anything? In fact, he said he didn't say that, so why are you harping on a nonexistent point?
posted by Snyder at 11:52 PM on April 27, 2005
posted by Snyder at 11:52 PM on April 27, 2005
I didn't say foldy was applauding the beatings, I said he was disingenuously changing the subject to Christianity as not to deal with the issue at hand. Sidestepping something is not the same as applauding. Sad and desperate that you're still trying to make a point. Perhaps we should just "move on" like all those Armenians, Jews, African slaves, et al, shall we?
And if you hadn't noticed, the thread was "derailed" in the first ten evasive comments. Duh. No one wants to condemn the stoning and look as though they're "shitting on Islam" as matteo brilliantly puts it.
posted by dhoyt at 7:41 AM on April 28, 2005
And if you hadn't noticed, the thread was "derailed" in the first ten evasive comments. Duh. No one wants to condemn the stoning and look as though they're "shitting on Islam" as matteo brilliantly puts it.
posted by dhoyt at 7:41 AM on April 28, 2005
Saying "Islam" is a blameless religion in context of how people live under it - a blank slate - is like saying "Fascism" is just another political philosophy.
Now we can get into the broader discussion of THE inherent flaw of religion in general. Bu this thread was about Islam and the practice of stoning.
People saying it's not the fault of Islam, but of culture, is a dodge and a cop out and says nothing. Culture is the new buzz word for saying nothing. You want avoid offending people say it's their "culture" - it's tantamount to saying "society made me do it".
Years ago an interesting stat was revealed in studying violent crime - I think in Atlanta. I can't remember the details but the commonality to like 80%-90% of all murders was not that the perps were black or that they used guns or that the victims were part of a political "pity" group. It was this. Other than occurring on planet earth all these crimes had in common was ... wait for it... alcohol abuse.
On some level every victim or every perp was either drunk, had been a drunk... etc.
But people bickered over their ideological fetish. It's the blacks. It's the guns. Women need awareness training. but you know what WORKED? Closing the fucking bars at midnight, not selling alcohol in certain zones at certain times and monitoring people who had alcohol related convictions.
So look. That Nigeria and Afghanistan BOTH have these problems with womens rights the only commonality in "culture" is Islam. Not that Islam has a monopoly on oppression. But THAT is what is at hand here. Which countries of the world HAVE Sharia? Islamic countries. Quit confusing the issue with this "it's not in the Koran"... BULLSHIT! It IS in the Koran. The Koran DEMANDS that an Islamic society be led by and Islamic government. It may not specify to what degree or the details - but that is why Sharia is there.
That one branch of Islam eats fish on Friday and the other doesn't. Or that one branch that say's The Prophets cousins sisters babies daddy said to wear a red beanie and another branch says green is irrelevant. THIS IS NOT PLURALITY.
PLURALITY is the tolerance of SECULAR institutions.
Ok. Get it. that is the only meaningful definition of plurality that will have any moral sustainability for actual oppressed groups. Plurality is the tolerance for Secular institutions.
And right now with or without Sharia as their guide Islamic Republics highly resistant to secular institutions of any kind.
I have not mentioned Christianity not because I think it has higher virtues necessarily, but because it has not been the focus of the thread. But I will say because of the acceptance of the New testament - though it took a thousand years and the development of revolutionary democracy like in the US - Christianity evolved a higher tolerance for secular institutions that, though tenuous, seemed to stick.
Islam has not. And NOT because of poverty or because they were fucked over by the west. Rich Muslims are treating women like shit, too. IMHO mostly because, unlike Catholicism that dominated Christian ideas for so long, Islam has no authoritarian center. It is more viral. It's great success is it's great flaw. Islam needs it's second movement. It's new testament. Once you see that happen then you will see the changes necessary.
Imams and Clerics living in France will only have so much influence. Sure. They have effected movements in Islamic countries. But those movements have been political. And you want to change the "culture" you have to change the root structure. The religion itself.
And I never called anyone a retard ONCE.
posted by tkchrist at 3:02 PM on April 28, 2005
Now we can get into the broader discussion of THE inherent flaw of religion in general. Bu this thread was about Islam and the practice of stoning.
People saying it's not the fault of Islam, but of culture, is a dodge and a cop out and says nothing. Culture is the new buzz word for saying nothing. You want avoid offending people say it's their "culture" - it's tantamount to saying "society made me do it".
Years ago an interesting stat was revealed in studying violent crime - I think in Atlanta. I can't remember the details but the commonality to like 80%-90% of all murders was not that the perps were black or that they used guns or that the victims were part of a political "pity" group. It was this. Other than occurring on planet earth all these crimes had in common was ... wait for it... alcohol abuse.
On some level every victim or every perp was either drunk, had been a drunk... etc.
But people bickered over their ideological fetish. It's the blacks. It's the guns. Women need awareness training. but you know what WORKED? Closing the fucking bars at midnight, not selling alcohol in certain zones at certain times and monitoring people who had alcohol related convictions.
So look. That Nigeria and Afghanistan BOTH have these problems with womens rights the only commonality in "culture" is Islam. Not that Islam has a monopoly on oppression. But THAT is what is at hand here. Which countries of the world HAVE Sharia? Islamic countries. Quit confusing the issue with this "it's not in the Koran"... BULLSHIT! It IS in the Koran. The Koran DEMANDS that an Islamic society be led by and Islamic government. It may not specify to what degree or the details - but that is why Sharia is there.
That one branch of Islam eats fish on Friday and the other doesn't. Or that one branch that say's The Prophets cousins sisters babies daddy said to wear a red beanie and another branch says green is irrelevant. THIS IS NOT PLURALITY.
PLURALITY is the tolerance of SECULAR institutions.
Ok. Get it. that is the only meaningful definition of plurality that will have any moral sustainability for actual oppressed groups. Plurality is the tolerance for Secular institutions.
And right now with or without Sharia as their guide Islamic Republics highly resistant to secular institutions of any kind.
I have not mentioned Christianity not because I think it has higher virtues necessarily, but because it has not been the focus of the thread. But I will say because of the acceptance of the New testament - though it took a thousand years and the development of revolutionary democracy like in the US - Christianity evolved a higher tolerance for secular institutions that, though tenuous, seemed to stick.
Islam has not. And NOT because of poverty or because they were fucked over by the west. Rich Muslims are treating women like shit, too. IMHO mostly because, unlike Catholicism that dominated Christian ideas for so long, Islam has no authoritarian center. It is more viral. It's great success is it's great flaw. Islam needs it's second movement. It's new testament. Once you see that happen then you will see the changes necessary.
Imams and Clerics living in France will only have so much influence. Sure. They have effected movements in Islamic countries. But those movements have been political. And you want to change the "culture" you have to change the root structure. The religion itself.
And I never called anyone a retard ONCE.
posted by tkchrist at 3:02 PM on April 28, 2005
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posted by RavinDave at 3:23 AM on April 26, 2005