Michael Kelly has a Point

November 22, 2000 4:51 AM

Michael Kelly has a point
posted by tiaka (28 comments total)

sure, he does have a point. but if the election is being stolen, it is being re-stolen. there is way too much evidence that nothing, but nothing was on the level about the voting in florida, indeed that other states had equally suspect processes, and not just the republicans. but the way florida has played out, it is the flashpoint, where the governor is one candidates brother, where a series of stories on voter fraud won a pulitzer prize last year, where african american voters were disenfranchised, and where the republican social-climber secretary of state has been fighting every statistic and legal argument tooth and nail so she wouldnt have to certify a gore win, and hopefully eventually get an ambassidorship.

and what of the reports in the village voice about republican plots in the electoral college, house, and senate to undermine a gore presidency even if he does win florida? michael kelly has a point, but it's a myopic, onesided, underdeveloped point. no one is getting out of this situation smelling like roses; have you read the shear volume of gaffs and low-blows coming from the bush side? the only reason he's losing in the public opinion war is because he is arguing against his own pathos and constituency. arent the republicans the states' rights advocates? and going against that, isnt bush the one trying to deny a state's right to correctly tally the opinions of its own voters? bush is fairing badly in the press now because he hasnt been able to spin his own cause in a positive light, and so he looks like a contrary stalwart instead of a crusader for the people or democracy or any other such high-minded cause.
posted by nonsequitur at 5:24 AM on November 22, 2000

Sorry, tiaka, but's much as I despise Dershowitz and Jackson - and I do truly despise them - it would take a dozen of each of them to make up for the reappearance of the slimiest, vilest political operative in recent memory, James Baker... Talk about thugs...
posted by m.polo at 5:29 AM on November 22, 2000

Good try tiaka... I agree with you but that kind of post generally won't fly on this site. The only thing surprising about the responses were how polite nonsequitur and m.polo were... Out of the norm for this place.
posted by Popstar at 5:45 AM on November 22, 2000

Ahh, but that is the charm, I mean, I know I will get really grinded for this. I mean, really grinded. But it's fun, I get e-mails, I can look at other beliefs and so on. But, it's mostly to get people as invigorated as they are when they see a Pro-communist.. err.. Republican post. heh. Chances are, it's the "YOU ROCK" thing over at atf that gives me ideas.
posted by tiaka at 5:56 AM on November 22, 2000

tiaka... the article is right on target... I can tell that most here get their information from the evening network news and the 'Daily Show'.

The truly myopic views always shine like a diamond and funny enough, all use the same catch phrases and erronneous information as the nightly pundits.. nothing new.

Nothing was on the level in Florida? Interesting. There certainly haven't been any legitimate charges of such here in Broward/Palm Beach County. The only voter fraud that comes to mind is the Miami-Dade mayor election some years ago. [Apparently even dead people can punch a hole]

I don't know the secretary of state personally as others apparently do , so I can't comment on her personal life as such. I would guess she is quite the remarkable woman to have all this power and no one to stop her. No doubt she slept her way to the top of that ladder? Oh I'm terribly sorry, I may have offended someone's 'personal' friend, I'll stop there.

The charge that african american voters were turned away has NOT been proven (in fact I believe the reported incidents were investigated and the 'stories' were quickly disspelled)

I think what most people (who already have their votes counted) miss is the idea that ONLY four counties will be hand counted. What about the people in Martin county? Do they not count? If there is to be a recount, then let everything be recounted, NOT just the democratic counties... Gore is telling the rest of Florida "Screw You! You don't count!".



posted by chiXy at 6:33 AM on November 22, 2000

Why would Al Gore want to do something that works directly against his goal of becoming President? The campaigns are the only groups that can request a recount. Gore's campaign is the only one that requested a recount. It would not make sense for them to request recounts in counties where they thought a recount would cost them votes. The Bush campaign was faced with a strategic decision here; whether to request recounts in other counties to balance out the Gore recounts, or to try and invalidate all recounts with the help of their state campaign manager and secretary of Florida State. They chose the latter, most likely because they believed that it would appear to be the moral high ground to the general populace, whom they believe to be sick of the whole thing. They wanted to play on people's sense of fairness to make them feel that Gore is unfairly exploiting the system, while Bush in fact has failed to exploit the system.
posted by donkeymon at 6:47 AM on November 22, 2000

tiaka, are you an ironist?
posted by Mocata at 7:01 AM on November 22, 2000

I certainly voted for Bush, and hope he ends up President, but I think it is ridiculous to single out Gore, as Kelly does, for some particular criticism in his post-vote tactics.

I think it should now be obvious that each side is choosing, and pressing, whatever legal and political tactics best suit the facts that they now encounter. Were the facts reversed -- Gore with the tiny lead, Bush believing that pregnant chads were his margin of victory, and the foreign absentees believed to be largely from Peace Corps volunteers not military officers -- you can be entirely sure that each side would be arguing the exact opposite position.


posted by MattD at 7:02 AM on November 22, 2000

Why do you ask that?
posted by tiaka at 7:04 AM on November 22, 2000

Wondering if you were serious or just trying to wind people up.
posted by Mocata at 7:17 AM on November 22, 2000

No, I'm for the republicans, the communist reference was a joke.
posted by tiaka at 7:22 AM on November 22, 2000

Gore is telling the rest of Florida "Screw You! You don't count!".

Gosh, I love putting other peoples words in italics . . .

Now, is it just me, or did Gore call for a statewide hand recount a few days ago? Wasn't it GWB who refused this recount on the basis that it would be grossly inaccurate? (This despite signing a law mandating hand recounts in the sovereign nation of Texas.)

And speaking of this inaccuracy, has anyone noticed that the great democratic conspiracy hasn't turned up much in the way of votes for it's candidate?

Regardless of what happens, this election has made a mockery of the US electoral process - a feat that could only be accomplished by two wholly uninspiring candidates.
posted by aladfar at 7:35 AM on November 22, 2000

Regardless of what happens, this election has made a mockery of the US electoral process - a feat that could only be accomplished by two wholly uninspiring candidates.

(You're right - that is fun!)

I think we can (almost) legitmately look at this election not as a mockery of the electoral process, but of proof that process works. The electoral process, like Dame Nature herself, abhors a vacuum, which is what the Oval Office will become with the tenancy of either of these two candidates. Perhaps in some Gaia-esque way, the Office of the President of the United States of America is exerting some karmic power to save us from ourselves...
posted by m.polo at 8:37 AM on November 22, 2000

Although I do think the author does himself a disservice by being so rabid, I have to agree with the article.

Once you let lawyers plan your strategy you give up all hope of having a happy outcome. An election win that comes from this court victory would be a very hollow victory indeed.

I voted for Al Gore, but if he lets lawyers steal this election for him he won't get any support from me.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:51 AM on November 22, 2000

There's a result in football (soccer, for the uninitiated) called a "no-score draw". It means that neither side managed to score a goal. There are some no-score draws that are thrillingly competitive, and there are others that make you want to give up watching the game for good: draws that are even worse than a well-fought defeat.

This is possibly the longest no-score draw in history.
posted by holgate at 9:39 AM on November 22, 2000

And in a league where you get three points for a victory, a no-score draw gets you a point: meaning it's not worth half a win. And Kelly gets one point, not three, for his piece.
posted by holgate at 9:43 AM on November 22, 2000

Oh, Christ All Fucking Mighty. Michael Kelly is as much a mouthpiece for the GOP as (insert mealy-mouthed pinko politico's name here) is for Gore. Or as Michael Moore is for Ralph "Who Was That Again?" Nader. What's astonishing is that anyone can still pretend to claim anything resembling the high ground at this point. I know, I know--I should be a good, Democracy-hugging American about this, but I'm just about out of gas. Seeing this guy blame Gore and only Gore for the current fiasco is just the limit (well, that and his gleeful co-opting of the Hunter Thompson neologism "greedheads"--a term commonly flung by HST at big business).

He uses the term "vote-rigging"--huh? Pretty skillful rigging! It takes some high-level planning to ensure that a sneaky recount hinges on poorly-punched holes in some cardboard ballots! This is James Bond territory.

Finally, he seems most pissed off about, as he perceives it, Gore's lawyers corrupting this pristine electoral system of ours. GORE'S lawyers? Who's Bush getting advice from? Oompa-Loompas?
posted by Skot at 10:09 AM on November 22, 2000

That Mr. Kelly has the ability to ignore out-right the claims of African Americans who say they were denied the right to vote ("Jackson's suggestion that Republicans were practicing Jim Crow tactics to deny the votes of blacks was of incomparable help in calming public passions" he says sarcastically... as though helping everything run smoothly should be the first priority of these people) demonstrates all you need to know about this shallow, nasty piece of crud of a typist.

to hell with Michael Kelly.
posted by Niccola Six at 12:46 PM on November 22, 2000

the only reason [Bush is] losing in the public opinion war is ... becuase your idea of the "opinion war" is what you see on MeFi. Most of the polls show the public indecisiveat worst regarding the coming Bush presidency. What they resent is the protracted litigation it is taking and will take to finish it off.

Now, is it just me, or did Gore call for a statewide hand recount a few days ago? Yes, he did, because he knew it was illegal (after the 72 hour request deadline, therefore no way to make it actually happen). Therefore, he gains the PR benefit of fooling the genreral public into thinking he's being generous, while risking absolutely nothing, since the state-wide recount could never happen. Judging by your response, the tactic worked.


posted by mikewas at 1:48 PM on November 22, 2000

Yes, he did, because he knew it was illegal (after the 72 hour request deadline, therefore no way to make it actually happen).

The Florida Supreme Court could have insisted upon a statewide recount. It's no more illegal than the Sunday Nov. 26 deadline the court created in its ruling. As the court said in the ruling, though, they asked the Republican lawyers if they wanted a statewide recount, and they said no.
posted by rcade at 2:31 PM on November 22, 2000

This is just silly, really. If things went the other way, it'd be exactly the same, in reverse, pretty much.

If Gore's name had appeared first and Bush's second on the damaged Palm Beach County ballots, you'd be hearing the same things coming from the opposite camps.

It's all a game of "whatever your side is doing is right" and "whatever your opponent's side is doing is wrong". Simple. All kinds of rationalizations and layers of mud slung on top just go to support these assertions.

I mean, really, honestly, with 19,000 people having punched two holes in a ballot with damaged design (we can consider that they were likely trying to correct their mistake of punching the wrong hole first), how on earth are we going to find out the True Will of the People? In other words, what would have happened with a well-designed ballot?

We will never know. It's just a mess, and they're fighting over it. No surprise. If you felt you had been robbed from a close election, you'd fight too.

Unless you were convinced that it would be better for your image not to fight. That's all.
posted by beth at 2:42 PM on November 22, 2000

so holgate, should bush and gore decide this on penalty kicks, or does that go against the very nature of the game?
posted by mathowie at 5:30 PM on November 22, 2000

actually I was thinking we need a Thunderdome type thing. "Two men enter, one man leaves." Of course we would need Tina Turner to oversee the entire thing. :)
posted by jbelshaw at 5:47 PM on November 22, 2000

The 48 percent of the vote that went for Bush--it's really not legitimate (and therefore neither is a President Bush) because, you see, that vote came from states (29 of them) populated by murderers and bigots and homophobes and neo-Nazis and terrorists.

The Paul Begala quote he's referring to actually doesn't question the legitimacy of a Bush presidency, but it sure does explain in clear detail why I'm literally terrified of Bush winning the election.
posted by sudama at 6:29 PM on November 22, 2000

I'm votin' for that, jbel.

Yeah, Beth, that's exactly the answer. But I'd be content with what the Repub lawyer suggested in court: machine everything in the state that will machine, and hand count the rest -- with the same standards everywhere, whatever those might be.
posted by baylink at 6:37 PM on November 22, 2000

Michael Kelly has a point

... and it's the same point in every tired right-wing screed he writes:

Democrats bad! Republicans good!

Kelly should like Begala. They're cut from the same cloth.
posted by rcade at 8:54 PM on November 22, 2000

I think it should now be obvious that each side is choosing, and pressing, whatever legal and political tactics best suit the facts that they now encounter. Were the facts reversed -- Gore with the tiny lead, Bush believing that pregnant chads were his margin of victory, and the foreign absentees believed to be largely from Peace Corps volunteers not military officers -- you can be entirely sure that each side would be arguing the exact opposite position.

I agree completely. The two party system in the U.S. simply isn't able to cope with a presidential election closer than the margin of error inherent in our voting systems. We could spend four years fixing all the problems exhibited in Florida the past several weeks with ballot confusion, outdated machinery and inconsistent standards, and in four years a close election will cause the same amount of litigation, accusations of fraud and rancor.
posted by rcade at 8:58 PM on November 22, 2000

mathowie: I'm more a fan of the Tuesday night replay, but if it's to be decided on the night, penalties will have to do it. My money would be on the Gore team, though, since I doubt Katherine Harris can get much of a run-up in her high heels.
posted by holgate at 12:55 AM on November 23, 2000