Nick Baker - lost in translation
August 16, 2005 6:14 PM Subscribe
So you're on a trip to Japan with your mate before the World Cup. Your mate generously offers to wait for your bag at the carousel and tells you take his bag through customs. Next thing you know you are sitting in prison with frostbite possibly for the next 20 years. Your mum sets up a website to help get you out. Your "mate" is later arrested in Belgium for duping someone else, denies everything and is released on bail. Years later he is found dead on a railway line in Gloucester. You're still in jail after your final court hearing. Your 3 year old son doesn't understand where daddy has gone.
Nothing wrong with worldwide drug importation laws. Nothing at all.
Nothing wrong with worldwide drug importation laws. Nothing at all.
Sorry, but if you are stupid enough to take ANYONE's bag through customs. While I feel sorry for this guy and agree that the sentence is harsh, you should never, ever, ever agree to take anyone's bag through customs.
posted by smcniven at 6:29 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by smcniven at 6:29 PM on August 16, 2005
I believe the conviction rate is still something like 99.x% in Japan, so this particular judge's record is not surprising.
This is achieved by close collaboration between the Prosecution and Judiciary. In times past the prosecutor used to sit up on the bench with the judges (of which there are 3, one to preside and 2 flanking judges to look stern).
The way the law works in Japan, from what I have gathered at least, is that potential lawyers are sent to the government law school (Legal Training Institute). The top of the class become judges, the next become prosecutors, and the rest become defense attorneys. Not sure how this relates to civil law, but it's my impression there isn't much of a civil law sector anyway.
Generally speaking, tho, I would rather be accused of a crime in Japan than in the states. The wheels of justice grind slow in Japan, but our criminal justice system is just fucked six ways from Sunday.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:32 PM on August 16, 2005
This is achieved by close collaboration between the Prosecution and Judiciary. In times past the prosecutor used to sit up on the bench with the judges (of which there are 3, one to preside and 2 flanking judges to look stern).
The way the law works in Japan, from what I have gathered at least, is that potential lawyers are sent to the government law school (Legal Training Institute). The top of the class become judges, the next become prosecutors, and the rest become defense attorneys. Not sure how this relates to civil law, but it's my impression there isn't much of a civil law sector anyway.
Generally speaking, tho, I would rather be accused of a crime in Japan than in the states. The wheels of justice grind slow in Japan, but our criminal justice system is just fucked six ways from Sunday.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:32 PM on August 16, 2005
In Japan being charged is more or less equivalent to being found guilty.
In Asia civil rights issues are seen as "quaint". If "public order" is perceived as being served by jailing 100 people -- no matter whether or not those 100 people have actually done anything illegal -- then those 100 people will be sent to jail.
posted by clevershark at 6:38 PM on August 16, 2005
In Asia civil rights issues are seen as "quaint". If "public order" is perceived as being served by jailing 100 people -- no matter whether or not those 100 people have actually done anything illegal -- then those 100 people will be sent to jail.
posted by clevershark at 6:38 PM on August 16, 2005
hincandenza writes "10 years without a single not guilty verdict? How in any kind of just society with checks and balances is that possible?"
You seem to be under the impression that this particular judge is an exceptional case in Japan's legal system. You need to give up that illusion.
posted by clevershark at 6:41 PM on August 16, 2005
You seem to be under the impression that this particular judge is an exceptional case in Japan's legal system. You need to give up that illusion.
posted by clevershark at 6:41 PM on August 16, 2005
A Japanese court trial is radically different from the West. I don't know if it's the same for every type of crime, but a trial in Japan consists of the prosecution writing a really, really, long report. The defense writes a really, really long report. The judge reads them both, then decides. No jury, witnesses, no Q&A--it's all done behind closed doors. Again, I know this is the system for civil court cases, but I think criminal cases are done the same.
As screwed up as the American system is, which has mostly to do with prosecutors building up a high conviction rate, at least there's more open discussion and argument.
posted by zardoz at 6:43 PM on August 16, 2005
As screwed up as the American system is, which has mostly to do with prosecutors building up a high conviction rate, at least there's more open discussion and argument.
posted by zardoz at 6:43 PM on August 16, 2005
A Japanese court trial is radically different from the West...
Wow. That just seems really fucked up to me. Anyone know what the false conviction rate is in Japan vs. US? I understand it'd be a hard thing to quantify ("No, really, I'm innocent!"), but there has to be some data out there...
I can imagine, too, that convictions probably don't get overturned there too much, either...
posted by Moral Animal at 6:48 PM on August 16, 2005
Wow. That just seems really fucked up to me. Anyone know what the false conviction rate is in Japan vs. US? I understand it'd be a hard thing to quantify ("No, really, I'm innocent!"), but there has to be some data out there...
I can imagine, too, that convictions probably don't get overturned there too much, either...
posted by Moral Animal at 6:48 PM on August 16, 2005
If "public order" is perceived as being served by jailing 100 people -- no matter whether or not those 100 people have actually done anything illegal -- then those 100 people will be sent to jail.
funny thing is, Japan's per-capita incarceration rate is 1/10th the United States. The Japanese system, sorta, amounts to trial by test. Don't break and confess over that 2-3 week period of intense interrogation, and chances are higher the police will let you go.
In the states, we have similar methods of getting you to "confess". We call them plea bargain deals, given the rampant buggery and general disorder of American jails, I'd rather take my chances in the Japanese system, ceteris paribus.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:50 PM on August 16, 2005
funny thing is, Japan's per-capita incarceration rate is 1/10th the United States. The Japanese system, sorta, amounts to trial by test. Don't break and confess over that 2-3 week period of intense interrogation, and chances are higher the police will let you go.
In the states, we have similar methods of getting you to "confess". We call them plea bargain deals, given the rampant buggery and general disorder of American jails, I'd rather take my chances in the Japanese system, ceteris paribus.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:50 PM on August 16, 2005
Moral Animal writes "Anyone know what the false conviction rate is in Japan vs. US?"
As far as the Japanese are concerned there is no such thing as a false conviction. Especially where foreigners are involved.
posted by clevershark at 6:50 PM on August 16, 2005
As far as the Japanese are concerned there is no such thing as a false conviction. Especially where foreigners are involved.
posted by clevershark at 6:50 PM on August 16, 2005
This is the plot of that "Brokedown Palace" movie, no? Except Japan is probably nicer than Thailand or wherever Claire Danes was in prison.
posted by smackfu at 6:54 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by smackfu at 6:54 PM on August 16, 2005
All this talk about the Japanese justice system by people who have no idea what they are talking about...
In Asia civil rights issues are seen as "quaint".
I don't even know where to begin with this. Do you even realize that Japan is *nothing* like the vast majority of the rest of Asia? You can't just lump all of Asia together simply because you're too ignorant to learn anything.
The bulk of the legal problems Japan has (just as in North America) are with the police and the methods they use in "dealing" with suspects. Drug-related crimes are one of the few cases where the system actually has any bite. They're pretty lenient on just about everything else. And I have no doubt the reason for this is compliance with America's War on (Some) Drugs.
posted by nightchrome at 6:58 PM on August 16, 2005
In Asia civil rights issues are seen as "quaint".
I don't even know where to begin with this. Do you even realize that Japan is *nothing* like the vast majority of the rest of Asia? You can't just lump all of Asia together simply because you're too ignorant to learn anything.
The bulk of the legal problems Japan has (just as in North America) are with the police and the methods they use in "dealing" with suspects. Drug-related crimes are one of the few cases where the system actually has any bite. They're pretty lenient on just about everything else. And I have no doubt the reason for this is compliance with America's War on (Some) Drugs.
posted by nightchrome at 6:58 PM on August 16, 2005
Wasn't this Nick Baker lacking some basic common sense? I can't say that he really had it coming to him. But that was just a really stupid move. Poeple have faced worse consequences for much less when travelling abroad.
When I was in Southern Italy many years ago, a 14 year old (American) boy purchased a potato wrapped in foil thinking that it was hashish. The last I heard was that he was still in prison.
posted by snsranch at 7:03 PM on August 16, 2005
When I was in Southern Italy many years ago, a 14 year old (American) boy purchased a potato wrapped in foil thinking that it was hashish. The last I heard was that he was still in prison.
posted by snsranch at 7:03 PM on August 16, 2005
nightchrome writes "Do you even realize that Japan is *nothing* like the vast majority of the rest of Asia?"
That's as may be, but I wouldn't want to be a defendant in Japan, China, South Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia or Singapore, regardless of whether I am rightly accused or not. None of these societies have a big tradition of many defendents being found not guilty once charged.
As for your surmising that Japan's anti-drug stance is exceptional in Asia and purely US-imposed, well, you need to inform yourself a little better on what punishments for narcotics-related offenses tend to be throughout Asia.
Perhaps the Japanese prosecutors are so amazingly brilliant that they really do charge only the truly guilty. That being said I think the odds are against that.
posted by clevershark at 7:10 PM on August 16, 2005
That's as may be, but I wouldn't want to be a defendant in Japan, China, South Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia or Singapore, regardless of whether I am rightly accused or not. None of these societies have a big tradition of many defendents being found not guilty once charged.
As for your surmising that Japan's anti-drug stance is exceptional in Asia and purely US-imposed, well, you need to inform yourself a little better on what punishments for narcotics-related offenses tend to be throughout Asia.
Perhaps the Japanese prosecutors are so amazingly brilliant that they really do charge only the truly guilty. That being said I think the odds are against that.
posted by clevershark at 7:10 PM on August 16, 2005
Baker is definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer, no matter what else is true.
posted by clevershark at 7:11 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by clevershark at 7:11 PM on August 16, 2005
lucky boy. we usually execute children who buy foil-wrapped zucchini. possession of less dangerous produce like potatoes (or artichoke) are worth a mandatory sentence of just 33 years behind bars.
posted by matteo at 7:13 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by matteo at 7:13 PM on August 16, 2005
Shades of Schapelle.
From the Japan Today link:
A police spokesman said Wednesday that there were no suspicious circumstances surrounding the death, which has been reported to a coroner.
How could dying on a railway line not be considered suspicious?
Is "not suspicious" copspeak for "we're pretty sure he committed suicide by throwing himself under a train"?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:17 PM on August 16, 2005
From the Japan Today link:
A police spokesman said Wednesday that there were no suspicious circumstances surrounding the death, which has been reported to a coroner.
How could dying on a railway line not be considered suspicious?
Is "not suspicious" copspeak for "we're pretty sure he committed suicide by throwing himself under a train"?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:17 PM on August 16, 2005
He was walking by the train tracks when he suddenly died of old age?
posted by clevershark at 7:24 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by clevershark at 7:24 PM on August 16, 2005
clevershark, I was not trying to imply that the rest of Asia is not tough on drugs. I was simply giving my view of why Japan's laws are the way they are. Japan is very much America's lapdog when it comes to widescale policy decisions.
Again, any comparison of Japan with the rest of Asia is really horribly misguided. It is far, far better to think of Japan as an outlying colony of the USA than as a part of Asia. You'd still be wrong on many points, but much less wrong.
posted by nightchrome at 7:31 PM on August 16, 2005
Again, any comparison of Japan with the rest of Asia is really horribly misguided. It is far, far better to think of Japan as an outlying colony of the USA than as a part of Asia. You'd still be wrong on many points, but much less wrong.
posted by nightchrome at 7:31 PM on August 16, 2005
Sorry, but if you are stupid enough to take ANYONE's bag through customs. While I feel sorry for this guy and agree that the sentence is harsh, you should never, ever, ever agree to take anyone's bag through customs.
Pick better friends.
Wasn't this Nick Baker lacking some basic common sense?
Baker is definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer, no matter what else is true.
It's too bad that not everyone can be as smart and rational and experienced judge of human character as you, guys. None of you, of course, has ever done anything stupid.
posted by c13 at 8:19 PM on August 16, 2005
Pick better friends.
Wasn't this Nick Baker lacking some basic common sense?
Baker is definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer, no matter what else is true.
It's too bad that not everyone can be as smart and rational and experienced judge of human character as you, guys. None of you, of course, has ever done anything stupid.
posted by c13 at 8:19 PM on August 16, 2005
c13, there's stupid and then there's criminally stupid. They have explicit rules about handling of baggage for a reason, and everyone who has ever been in an airport has heard the announcements every few minutes about proper baggage handling. You don't leave your bags alone, and you don't give your bags to others (likewise receiving someone else's, obviously).
posted by nightchrome at 8:26 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by nightchrome at 8:26 PM on August 16, 2005
He was walking by the train tracks when he suddenly died of old age?
Classic!
Like the time when Siegfried was going to kill Max Smart and he asked him how he wanted to die.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:27 PM on August 16, 2005
Classic!
Like the time when Siegfried was going to kill Max Smart and he asked him how he wanted to die.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:27 PM on August 16, 2005
Another victory in the war on drugs! Thank God we're winning the war on something! Thank God we have allies fighting alongside us in feckless wars on [insert slogan here]!
posted by blendor at 8:30 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by blendor at 8:30 PM on August 16, 2005
I should point out that it quite clearly says the guy died in the UK, and the cop who made the comment that nothing was suspicious about it was a British cop. So the implications here that the cops are "in on it" just don't make any sense.
posted by nightchrome at 8:32 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by nightchrome at 8:32 PM on August 16, 2005
Well, nightchrome, it's kinda hard not to leave your bags alone, given that they have to be loaded into a different compartment on a plane.
Perhaps I'm being too sarcastic, but wouldn't YOU trust your friend? And if not, what kind of friend and friendship is it?
I guess what irks me the most is comments like Pick better friends. . Really?!? Because we've always being told to pick the WORST ones.
Everyone is a genius in retrospect. But that's really not worth much.
posted by c13 at 8:35 PM on August 16, 2005
Perhaps I'm being too sarcastic, but wouldn't YOU trust your friend? And if not, what kind of friend and friendship is it?
I guess what irks me the most is comments like Pick better friends. . Really?!? Because we've always being told to pick the WORST ones.
Everyone is a genius in retrospect. But that's really not worth much.
posted by c13 at 8:35 PM on August 16, 2005
c13, the guy's website says that part of his statement is that he was already quite suspicious of the other guy in question, and had actually recommended that they NOT return to the UK together. It does not sound to me like they were very good friends at all.
Which, of course, makes the decision he made extremely stupid.
posted by nightchrome at 8:38 PM on August 16, 2005
Which, of course, makes the decision he made extremely stupid.
posted by nightchrome at 8:38 PM on August 16, 2005
c13 writes "It's too bad that not everyone can be as smart and rational and experienced judge of human character as you, guys. None of you, of course, has ever done anything stupid."
Well, it's a safe bet that none of us have ever done something that stupid, being out in the free world and all.
posted by clevershark at 8:57 PM on August 16, 2005
Well, it's a safe bet that none of us have ever done something that stupid, being out in the free world and all.
posted by clevershark at 8:57 PM on August 16, 2005
"Empathy" is obviously not a word in your vocabulary that gets much use.
posted by c13 at 9:01 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by c13 at 9:01 PM on August 16, 2005
So the implications here that the cops are "in on it" just don't make any sense.
I guess that's referring to my post and I'd like to say I wasn't trying to imply that.
I just thought it was a stupid thing for the cops to say.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:01 PM on August 16, 2005
I guess that's referring to my post and I'd like to say I wasn't trying to imply that.
I just thought it was a stupid thing for the cops to say.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:01 PM on August 16, 2005
Moral Animal: Wow. That just seems really fucked up to me.
It is a different country with different laws and you do not live there and you are not beholden to those laws. When you travel in another country, you are beholden to the laws of that land. There's nothing f'd up about that.
There may be Geneva Conventions, but not all nations have signed that either.
posted by gen at 9:04 PM on August 16, 2005
It is a different country with different laws and you do not live there and you are not beholden to those laws. When you travel in another country, you are beholden to the laws of that land. There's nothing f'd up about that.
There may be Geneva Conventions, but not all nations have signed that either.
posted by gen at 9:04 PM on August 16, 2005
c13, I feel bad for the guy. Really, I do.
But even his own mother admits he was stupid.
posted by nightchrome at 9:04 PM on August 16, 2005
But even his own mother admits he was stupid.
posted by nightchrome at 9:04 PM on August 16, 2005
It's too bad that not everyone can be as smart and rational and experienced judge of human character as you, guys. None of you, of course, has ever done anything stupid.
I could see easily see myself doing something that stupid. Y'know… you're travelling… you hook up with people at hostels and become "buddies."
But I could see myself doing that at age 22, not age 32.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:08 PM on August 16, 2005
I could see easily see myself doing something that stupid. Y'know… you're travelling… you hook up with people at hostels and become "buddies."
But I could see myself doing that at age 22, not age 32.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 9:08 PM on August 16, 2005
Any justice system that has an interest in reducing recidivism seeks to minimize sentences for "stupid mistakes." And any justice system that wants to serve society rather than cost us a shit-ton of cash, has an interest in reducing recidivism.
Woudl you rather your justice system doled satisfaction and vengeance in the form of good old Judeo-Christian punishments, or simply attempted to minimize crime? Well, I guess you've already told us with your reaction.
posted by mek at 9:08 PM on August 16, 2005
Woudl you rather your justice system doled satisfaction and vengeance in the form of good old Judeo-Christian punishments, or simply attempted to minimize crime? Well, I guess you've already told us with your reaction.
posted by mek at 9:08 PM on August 16, 2005
Yes, yes! It was a stupid thing to do. I in no way am trying to say different. But, I think, there is a difference between doing a stupid thing and doing something criminal. And 14 years is a little too much to pay just for a stupid mistake. I don't know about you, guys, but I would like to see a system that has the ability to differentiate between stupid and criminal.
But that's getting off topic. My main point is that, while it seems obvious now, it didn't seem obvious to him AT THE TIME. And that I sincerely doubt that anyone here, myself included, would behave all that much different under the same circumstances.
posted by c13 at 9:18 PM on August 16, 2005
But that's getting off topic. My main point is that, while it seems obvious now, it didn't seem obvious to him AT THE TIME. And that I sincerely doubt that anyone here, myself included, would behave all that much different under the same circumstances.
posted by c13 at 9:18 PM on August 16, 2005
c13 writes "But, I think, there is a difference between doing a stupid thing and doing something criminal."
To the eyes of the authorities *he* was the one bringing drugs into the country. We're assuming, for the sake of argument, that the other bloke was the one who meant to take drugs in, but we're not doing so on the basis of solid direct evidence, just on its likelihood.
To put a point of reference on this, it was recently debated that the death penalty should be made applicable to certain cases of narcotics importation into the United States. I can't remember how that debate ended, however.
posted by clevershark at 9:24 PM on August 16, 2005
To the eyes of the authorities *he* was the one bringing drugs into the country. We're assuming, for the sake of argument, that the other bloke was the one who meant to take drugs in, but we're not doing so on the basis of solid direct evidence, just on its likelihood.
To put a point of reference on this, it was recently debated that the death penalty should be made applicable to certain cases of narcotics importation into the United States. I can't remember how that debate ended, however.
posted by clevershark at 9:24 PM on August 16, 2005
What's the point of keeping him locked up for 14 years? I mean, really, what possible good is being served? The only message I can read from this is: "Drug smugglers, be sure you have a patsy."
He was walking by the train tracks when he suddenly died of old age?
Heh.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:26 PM on August 16, 2005
He was walking by the train tracks when he suddenly died of old age?
Heh.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:26 PM on August 16, 2005
What Civil Disobidient said.
Also, it strikes somewhat close to home, because I went on an overseas trip recently, and had to be away from my backpack for the duration of the flight during which, theoretically, enough drugs could be placed there to have me locked up for just as long. And "in the eyes of the authorities" everything would be just fine.
posted by c13 at 9:34 PM on August 16, 2005
Also, it strikes somewhat close to home, because I went on an overseas trip recently, and had to be away from my backpack for the duration of the flight during which, theoretically, enough drugs could be placed there to have me locked up for just as long. And "in the eyes of the authorities" everything would be just fine.
posted by c13 at 9:34 PM on August 16, 2005
What c13 said
I bet lots of us have been away from a suitcase or backpack at one point or another at an airport or on a plane.
It could actually be worse for someone entering the United States who has been duped into carrying drugs, couldn't it?
I don't see the American system as being very forgiving.
What's the conviction rate at the federal level for people that go to trial?
posted by joedharma at 9:52 PM on August 16, 2005
I bet lots of us have been away from a suitcase or backpack at one point or another at an airport or on a plane.
It could actually be worse for someone entering the United States who has been duped into carrying drugs, couldn't it?
I don't see the American system as being very forgiving.
What's the conviction rate at the federal level for people that go to trial?
posted by joedharma at 9:52 PM on August 16, 2005
Am I the only person who looks in his bags before going through customs? Mind you, I do it to ensure nothing was stolen, but even so.
Not that it would have helped in this case, since it wasn't his bag and it wasn't an easily-accessible compartment.
posted by nightchrome at 9:57 PM on August 16, 2005
Not that it would have helped in this case, since it wasn't his bag and it wasn't an easily-accessible compartment.
posted by nightchrome at 9:57 PM on August 16, 2005
I don't know about you, guys, but I would like to see a system that has the ability to differentiate between stupid and criminal.
amen. stop drug laws. as susan powter would say, stop the insanity.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:23 PM on August 16, 2005
amen. stop drug laws. as susan powter would say, stop the insanity.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:23 PM on August 16, 2005
Chika Honda is to Japan what Schappel Corby is to Australia.
Needless to say it's not as well known.
Tsk, tsk, Queensland beauty therapists get all the media circuses...
I love asunburnt double standard country
posted by JGreyNemo at 10:27 PM on August 16, 2005
Needless to say it's not as well known.
Tsk, tsk, Queensland beauty therapists get all the media circuses...
I love a
posted by JGreyNemo at 10:27 PM on August 16, 2005
No, sorry. That was an utterly stupid thing to do. If you asked me to claim a bag for you, I'd tell you to go fuck yourself. If he was duped, I don't think he deserves what he got, but there you go. There are things you simply don't fuck around with, and crossing borders is one of those things. I do pity the man, but he made a very bad decision. If there was any way to divine people's true intentions, we wouldn't be talking about this, but there isn't, so here we are.
posted by trondant at 11:33 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by trondant at 11:33 PM on August 16, 2005
Incredibly stupid thing to do - endangering innocent lives including his own. No question whatsoever.
But then so is talking on your cell phone while driving, crossing the road against a don't walk sign, reading maps while driving, living in the same suburb as a repeat sex offender, smoking in public, bungee jumping, mountain climbing, riding your bicycle on the pavement, swimming outside of the lifesaver area, forgetting to service your car, not checking the fireproofing of the place you live in, not checking the criminal records of people you choose to live with, opening the door to strangers.
All those who scored 100% on the above, you're completely free to pursue your religious careers. The rest of you - it's 14 years hard labour.
posted by DirtyCreature at 11:50 PM on August 16, 2005
But then so is talking on your cell phone while driving, crossing the road against a don't walk sign, reading maps while driving, living in the same suburb as a repeat sex offender, smoking in public, bungee jumping, mountain climbing, riding your bicycle on the pavement, swimming outside of the lifesaver area, forgetting to service your car, not checking the fireproofing of the place you live in, not checking the criminal records of people you choose to live with, opening the door to strangers.
All those who scored 100% on the above, you're completely free to pursue your religious careers. The rest of you - it's 14 years hard labour.
posted by DirtyCreature at 11:50 PM on August 16, 2005
nightchrome: Am I the only person who looks in his bags before going through customs? Mind you, I do it to ensure nothing was stolen, but even so.
I'm just wondering - in the event that you look through your bag and find someone has stashed drugs there, what the heck do you do?! Because I think putting your hand up and announcing you just found drugs on your bag that aren't yours isn't going to help you much.
posted by Pigpen at 11:53 PM on August 16, 2005
I'm just wondering - in the event that you look through your bag and find someone has stashed drugs there, what the heck do you do?! Because I think putting your hand up and announcing you just found drugs on your bag that aren't yours isn't going to help you much.
posted by Pigpen at 11:53 PM on August 16, 2005
Fantastic! I always wanted a career in religion.
When do I get to excommunicate people?
posted by nightchrome at 11:54 PM on August 16, 2005
When do I get to excommunicate people?
posted by nightchrome at 11:54 PM on August 16, 2005
Pigpen, I dunno, I would think that coming forward on your own with stuff would be looked upon favorably. In an ideal situation of course. Who knows what would happen in real life?
posted by nightchrome at 11:55 PM on August 16, 2005
posted by nightchrome at 11:55 PM on August 16, 2005
Maybe in a reasonable country you would be looked upon favorably, for coming forward to show drugs had been stashed in your bag. Personally, I would be inclined to do this with great theatre, where all present would be aware of exactly what I did. Witnesses, you know? But I wouldn't trust Japan's justice system with this, nor would I be overly confident in the American system these days.
I hate reading stuff like this. I had entertained a good opinion of Japan prior to learning of this. Now, I would be very hesitant to consider travel there. It saddens me to learn that these polite, pleasant people use such a barbaric prison and justice system.
Was this guy stupid? Of course! But it is so easy for me to imagine someone acting stupid after a long flight with insufficient sleep or oxygen even.
Yet another case of someone's life being destroyed by the war on drugs. The war is far more destructive than the drugs themselves. The war impacts everyone, whether they use drugs or not. The only ones who benefit are the drug lords (profits!) and those making a living chasing down those that buy and sell drugs.
But do note, the Japan authorities were not remotely interested in justice or getting the real drug smuggler. They were only interested in making sure someone suffered at their hands. The real smuggler was a non-issue for them.
posted by Goofyy at 12:31 AM on August 17, 2005
I hate reading stuff like this. I had entertained a good opinion of Japan prior to learning of this. Now, I would be very hesitant to consider travel there. It saddens me to learn that these polite, pleasant people use such a barbaric prison and justice system.
Was this guy stupid? Of course! But it is so easy for me to imagine someone acting stupid after a long flight with insufficient sleep or oxygen even.
Yet another case of someone's life being destroyed by the war on drugs. The war is far more destructive than the drugs themselves. The war impacts everyone, whether they use drugs or not. The only ones who benefit are the drug lords (profits!) and those making a living chasing down those that buy and sell drugs.
But do note, the Japan authorities were not remotely interested in justice or getting the real drug smuggler. They were only interested in making sure someone suffered at their hands. The real smuggler was a non-issue for them.
posted by Goofyy at 12:31 AM on August 17, 2005
Barbaric? That's a little extreme, don't you think?
I mean, it's not like he's in a hole dug in the ground.
posted by nightchrome at 12:39 AM on August 17, 2005
I mean, it's not like he's in a hole dug in the ground.
posted by nightchrome at 12:39 AM on August 17, 2005
I just thought it was a stupid thing for the cops to say.
The UK police has a few phrases which they give to the media in order to let them know what they are thinking.
"No suspiscious circumstances" - He topped himself
See Also.
"Helping police with their enquiries" - He did it.
"Seek to eliminate from enquiries" - We think he did it.
"Not Seeking anyone else in regard to their enquiries" - He did it but he's dead.
posted by fullerine at 12:54 AM on August 17, 2005
The UK police has a few phrases which they give to the media in order to let them know what they are thinking.
"No suspiscious circumstances" - He topped himself
See Also.
"Helping police with their enquiries" - He did it.
"Seek to eliminate from enquiries" - We think he did it.
"Not Seeking anyone else in regard to their enquiries" - He did it but he's dead.
posted by fullerine at 12:54 AM on August 17, 2005
nightchrome: I don't think its extreme at all. Perhaps I just have a higher standard for humane treatment than yourself. Or perhaps I read more of the information provided on the website. Personally I find treating people in custody in ways which harm their health to be barbaric.
I note you are in Tokyo, according to your profile. Perhaps you have a biased view. Judging by your name, I'd guess you are an expat, rather than a native.
posted by Goofyy at 1:51 AM on August 17, 2005
I note you are in Tokyo, according to your profile. Perhaps you have a biased view. Judging by your name, I'd guess you are an expat, rather than a native.
posted by Goofyy at 1:51 AM on August 17, 2005
Goofyy, I guess I just expect cops everywhere to mistreat suspects/prisoners. It's what they do. Happens in North America, happens here. Unless of course you were saying that North America is equally barbaric. In which case I guess I'd agree with you.
Yes, I'm an expat, and yes I'm probably biased. But I've been here many years, done countless stupid and certainly illegal things, and not once ever felt any more upset with the system than when I was back home.
Heck, I would sooner trust a Japanese cop than an American cop. At their very worst, they're just incompetent and try to cover for it.
posted by nightchrome at 2:00 AM on August 17, 2005
Yes, I'm an expat, and yes I'm probably biased. But I've been here many years, done countless stupid and certainly illegal things, and not once ever felt any more upset with the system than when I was back home.
Heck, I would sooner trust a Japanese cop than an American cop. At their very worst, they're just incompetent and try to cover for it.
posted by nightchrome at 2:00 AM on August 17, 2005
I'm just wondering - in the event that you look through your bag and find someone has stashed drugs there, what the heck do you do?!
Go to the toilets and flush them away? Throw them in a bin? just don't keep them!
posted by twistedonion at 2:15 AM on August 17, 2005
Go to the toilets and flush them away? Throw them in a bin? just don't keep them!
posted by twistedonion at 2:15 AM on August 17, 2005
I'm just wondering - in the event that you look through your bag and find someone has stashed drugs there, what the heck do you do?!
Go to the toilets and flush them away? Throw them in a bin? just don't keep them!
♪Smokin' in the Boys room♪
posted by nightchrome at 2:29 AM on August 17, 2005
Go to the toilets and flush them away? Throw them in a bin? just don't keep them!
♪Smokin' in the Boys room♪
posted by nightchrome at 2:29 AM on August 17, 2005
It is far, far better to think of Japan as an outlying colony of the USA than as a part of Asia. You'd still be wrong on many points, but much less wrong.
I'd call it 'differently' wrong rather than 'less wrong', but that's just me, perhaps.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:32 AM on August 17, 2005
I'd call it 'differently' wrong rather than 'less wrong', but that's just me, perhaps.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:32 AM on August 17, 2005
stavros, I've probably just been here too long and have started to believe the locals when they claim Japan is not even really part of Asia geographically.
posted by nightchrome at 2:36 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by nightchrome at 2:36 AM on August 17, 2005
> he made a very bad decision
What I find puzzling is *why* he made the decision. Even if
you trust your friends absolutely, I don't understand why
he thought his friend was doing him a favour by having him
wait over on the other side of customs.
If you're travelling together, why wouldn't you wait for the
bags together? Better to wait with company than to wait
alone, surely?
That said, the drug laws *are* irrational and unhelpful in the
extreme.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:36 AM on August 17, 2005
What I find puzzling is *why* he made the decision. Even if
you trust your friends absolutely, I don't understand why
he thought his friend was doing him a favour by having him
wait over on the other side of customs.
If you're travelling together, why wouldn't you wait for the
bags together? Better to wait with company than to wait
alone, surely?
That said, the drug laws *are* irrational and unhelpful in the
extreme.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:36 AM on August 17, 2005
Isn't it possible that the guy is actually guilty?
If he and his "mate" were both professional drug smugglers, that would explain the "mate" being caught later in Belgium, and would also explain the (otherwise insane) decision to go through customs with that particular suitcase.
Fourteen years is still an extremely harsh sentence for a victimless crime, and I deplore the whole "war on drugs" insanity, but to me, the available evidence suggests that the Japanese legal system probably got the right man.
posted by cleardawn at 5:10 AM on August 17, 2005
If he and his "mate" were both professional drug smugglers, that would explain the "mate" being caught later in Belgium, and would also explain the (otherwise insane) decision to go through customs with that particular suitcase.
Fourteen years is still an extremely harsh sentence for a victimless crime, and I deplore the whole "war on drugs" insanity, but to me, the available evidence suggests that the Japanese legal system probably got the right man.
posted by cleardawn at 5:10 AM on August 17, 2005
The war is far more destructive than the drugs themselves.
It's been said, so it must be true. Sounds good and flashy too.
posted by Witty at 5:23 AM on August 17, 2005
It's been said, so it must be true. Sounds good and flashy too.
posted by Witty at 5:23 AM on August 17, 2005
Most or all of us can agree that carrying his friend's bag through customs was stupid. The story said he was drunk. But should the penalty for stupidity be TWENTY YEARS??? Geez that poor schmuck.
Do we think that one of Nick's friends or relatives killed Prunier?
posted by Eyebeams at 5:35 AM on August 17, 2005
Do we think that one of Nick's friends or relatives killed Prunier?
posted by Eyebeams at 5:35 AM on August 17, 2005
smackfu writes "This is the plot of that 'Brokedown Palace' movie, no? Except Japan is probably nicer than Thailand or wherever Claire Danes was in prison."
I wonder if this is a generational divider? You either think of Brokedown Palace, Bangkok Hilton or Tenko as your "women unjustly incarcerated" movie... (Unless you think of Caged Heat - that's just cross-generational!)
posted by benzo8 at 5:43 AM on August 17, 2005
I wonder if this is a generational divider? You either think of Brokedown Palace, Bangkok Hilton or Tenko as your "women unjustly incarcerated" movie... (Unless you think of Caged Heat - that's just cross-generational!)
posted by benzo8 at 5:43 AM on August 17, 2005
I'm just surprised dios hasn't popped in yet to recommend a longer sentence.
posted by jalexei at 6:12 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by jalexei at 6:12 AM on August 17, 2005
A faint personal glimmer of light here - rehashing this sorry story for the benefit of my two teenage sons over breakfast. They both stared stricken into the puddles of milk on the table - and had heaps of empathy for the likely accidental mule but - because they know everything anyway - quickly figured out that they also "knew" they'd never be so dumb...god, I hope they remember...
posted by Jody Tresidder at 6:23 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by Jody Tresidder at 6:23 AM on August 17, 2005
I'm just surprised dios hasn't popped in yet to recommend drawing and quartering.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:55 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:55 AM on August 17, 2005
Why don't you send up a flare, Optimus? That'd be real fucking helpful.
posted by jonmc at 7:04 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by jonmc at 7:04 AM on August 17, 2005
It has always seemed to me that the police, in Japan, are a lot more polite and a lot less intimidating than their American counterparts. In fact, they have always been somewhat of a joke to me and other expats. As one who has done plenty of dumb, illegal things in America and encountered plenty of big-ego'd cops, the Japanese police always just seemed kind of, well, cowardly.
That said, Japan's police don't seem to be used much as a deterrant for crime, as the "frightening" police in America seem to be (Japanese houseguests of mine simply couldn't believe the amount of "increidbly scary" police in America, especially in such a small midwest town), instead, the unspoken cruelty and rigidity of the Japanese justice system are the deterrant.
As a fairly bad kid in America, I am absolutely terrified to do anything illegal here--from shoplifting some gum at a store to simply J-walking--because the unspoken consequences loom so ominous, over everyone's heads, I think. Were the criminally inclined of Japan to begin all at once pickpocketing tomorrow, Tokyo would become a completely different city.
I don't see that happening though, and I guess the point is that, yes, in fact, Japans justice system is even by admission of it's own citizens, strict as hell. Most people understand that getting caught here does essentially mean that you're the man they want, and you're going to jail.
On the anecdotal level, I once explained to a few Japanese friends of mine about the time I was caught back in high school shoplifting something, worth about 90$. They simply couldn't believe that I was fined and not sent to jail. After telling them about a friend of mine who was sent up for 55 days for making fake IDs, they said: "That's all?"
Feel pretty bad for the guy. Not the smartest thing in the world, but really, haven't we called him stupid enough times in this thread? He's stupid, ok. Let's move on from there.
posted by dead_ at 7:24 AM on August 17, 2005
That said, Japan's police don't seem to be used much as a deterrant for crime, as the "frightening" police in America seem to be (Japanese houseguests of mine simply couldn't believe the amount of "increidbly scary" police in America, especially in such a small midwest town), instead, the unspoken cruelty and rigidity of the Japanese justice system are the deterrant.
As a fairly bad kid in America, I am absolutely terrified to do anything illegal here--from shoplifting some gum at a store to simply J-walking--because the unspoken consequences loom so ominous, over everyone's heads, I think. Were the criminally inclined of Japan to begin all at once pickpocketing tomorrow, Tokyo would become a completely different city.
I don't see that happening though, and I guess the point is that, yes, in fact, Japans justice system is even by admission of it's own citizens, strict as hell. Most people understand that getting caught here does essentially mean that you're the man they want, and you're going to jail.
On the anecdotal level, I once explained to a few Japanese friends of mine about the time I was caught back in high school shoplifting something, worth about 90$. They simply couldn't believe that I was fined and not sent to jail. After telling them about a friend of mine who was sent up for 55 days for making fake IDs, they said: "That's all?"
Feel pretty bad for the guy. Not the smartest thing in the world, but really, haven't we called him stupid enough times in this thread? He's stupid, ok. Let's move on from there.
posted by dead_ at 7:24 AM on August 17, 2005
I like the assertions of how barbaric Japan's court system is. What's the penalty in the US for attempting to carry drugs through customs, even if it is a friend's bag? I would imagine it's pretty harsh. Do foreigners get a jury trial? Even if so, the question isn't whether it was his bag or his drugs, but whether he attempted to carry a bag containing drugs through customs. Which seems to be true.
posted by mikeh at 7:26 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by mikeh at 7:26 AM on August 17, 2005
I'm not defending dios or his opinions, matteo, but talking shit about a member who isn't in the thread is kinda grade-school, don't you think?
posted by jonmc at 7:29 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by jonmc at 7:29 AM on August 17, 2005
Pigpen writes "I'm just wondering - in the event that you look through your bag and find someone has stashed drugs there, what the heck do you do?! "
It's either Thailand or Cambodia where there are tables before entering customs where you can check your own bags for violations. Bins are available to deposit anything you may no longer wish to be carrying.
posted by Mitheral at 7:57 AM on August 17, 2005
It's either Thailand or Cambodia where there are tables before entering customs where you can check your own bags for violations. Bins are available to deposit anything you may no longer wish to be carrying.
posted by Mitheral at 7:57 AM on August 17, 2005
All this talk of stupidity reminds me of all the times I've done stupid things. I have, however, been very lucky. By all rights I should probably be dead now.
That said, having travelled through most of SEA I am paranoid about people slipping things into my pack -- as the best way to get contraband across a border is of course in someone else's luggage. But we each have our own brand of stupidity.
And I don't know how many more times in this life I will encounter foreign travellers who knowingly break local laws because they think they don't apply to them.
posted by dreamsign at 9:38 AM on August 17, 2005
That said, having travelled through most of SEA I am paranoid about people slipping things into my pack -- as the best way to get contraband across a border is of course in someone else's luggage. But we each have our own brand of stupidity.
And I don't know how many more times in this life I will encounter foreign travellers who knowingly break local laws because they think they don't apply to them.
posted by dreamsign at 9:38 AM on August 17, 2005
dead_, I've read your post a couple of times and I'm still a bit confused by it. First you admit that you did a lot of "dumb, illegal things in America", then tag the cops who obviously had to deal with your stupidity and legal mess as "big-ego'd". I don't understand this. In fact, it only reinforces my opinion that the people who seem to have a problem with cops, in general, are always the ones who give cops the most trouble. I mean, you're acting "dumb and illegally" and the cops are supposed to be cordial and accomodating? See, I personally have never done anything "dumb and illegal" (haven't been caught anyway) and my encounters with cops has been nothing but reasonable and professional. If you think American cops are "frightening" and "incredibly scary", then good... and if you mean that as some kind of sarcastic label, then I feel sorry for you. You'll probably just continue to be a "bad kid" and therefore deserve whatever you get, be it a smack-down to jail time. You're the one with the problem, not the cops.
posted by Witty at 10:05 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by Witty at 10:05 AM on August 17, 2005
Rather off-topic: I'm wondering how (if) the drugs were disguised within the luggage. (That's a lotta pills, y'know?) If Baker hadn't agreed to take his bag through, would his "mate" tried to do it himself?
posted by Specklet at 10:09 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by Specklet at 10:09 AM on August 17, 2005
Witty, I've tried twice to write a response to your comment and can come up with nothing constructive. However, I will say that no, cops don't have to be cordial and accomodating... but it is true that American cops perpetuate a stereotype: at least, the majority of cops I've come in contact with have indeed been on some sort of asshole power trip. /off-topic
posted by Specklet at 10:17 AM on August 17, 2005
posted by Specklet at 10:17 AM on August 17, 2005
but talking shit about a member who isn't in the thread is kinda grade-school, don't you think?
you never seem to have a problem with it whenever your buddies do it to me, though
posted by matteo at 10:20 AM on August 17, 2005
you never seem to have a problem with it whenever your buddies do it to me, though
posted by matteo at 10:20 AM on August 17, 2005
I feel bad for the guy because he got railroaded but I also think he was exceedingly stupid in A) passing through an international border drunk and B) taking his companion's bag through customs when he already didn't trust him.
Yes, he is screwed and its unfair and he's unlikely to get out a single day before the Japanese want him released.
But he should have known better, not that that makes the ridiculous sentence any easier. And its pretty crazy that he'd have gotten less jailtime if he'd murdered someone.
posted by fenriq at 10:41 AM on August 17, 2005
Yes, he is screwed and its unfair and he's unlikely to get out a single day before the Japanese want him released.
But he should have known better, not that that makes the ridiculous sentence any easier. And its pretty crazy that he'd have gotten less jailtime if he'd murdered someone.
posted by fenriq at 10:41 AM on August 17, 2005
talking shit about a member who isn't in the thread is kinda grade-school, don't you think?
This whole site is kinda grade school. Lighten up.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:57 AM on August 17, 2005
This whole site is kinda grade school. Lighten up.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:57 AM on August 17, 2005
The war is far more destructive than the drugs themselves.
It's been said, so it must be true. Sounds good and flashy too.
It's been said, so it must be true. Sounds good and flashy too.
Right? I mean it's been said, it's good and flashy (even rhymes!), and provides absolutely no evidence to back up its supposed refutation. Merely repeating that phrase while offering nothing whatsoever to demonstrate your point of view is a self-defeating act. At least the original poster made their claim within a thread which arguably provides some amount of corroborating evidence.
And to prevent the repetition of that cycle: Throughout the last hundred years the United States has employed more and more people, spent more and more money, and enacted stricter and stricter laws in attempts to (supposedly) reduce the social impact of certain drugs. None of this has had any significant effect in reducing the usage of or harm caused by the drugs they fight to control. In fact, the one significant reduction in drugs use we've seen is with tobacco - and this large decrease in usage happened while tobacco stayed 100% legal and minimally restricted sales-wise. It's almost as if maybe the campaigns to educate people about the genuine health consequences had something to do with it. Thus, since these additional measures are not helping and inasmuch as the effects these measures have on the lives of those they are enacted against are almost wholly negative, the combination of the war on drugs and drugs must cause more damage than drugs alone. Far more destructive? Maybe not, but consider: Without prohibition IV drug users would have better access to clean needles lessening the transmission of infectious diseases. With regulated sales, drugs will have the benefit of being distributed by someone who (1) Is legally obligated to keep drugs out of the hands of children (2) Can gurantee the purity of drugs (3) Is medically trained to give correct information regarding dosage (4) Can refer people with health problems to a hospital or treatment center (if they are addicted and wish to stop). Without strict drug laws people would be more likely to bring friends that have ODed to the hospital. Etcetera. It's obviously a seriously involved issue and if you disagree with the original statement, please tell us why - it doesn't help anything to just trade snide remarks and slogans back and forth.
posted by nTeleKy at 3:28 PM on August 17, 2005
It's been said, so it must be true. Sounds good and flashy too.
It's been said, so it must be true. Sounds good and flashy too.
Right? I mean it's been said, it's good and flashy (even rhymes!), and provides absolutely no evidence to back up its supposed refutation. Merely repeating that phrase while offering nothing whatsoever to demonstrate your point of view is a self-defeating act. At least the original poster made their claim within a thread which arguably provides some amount of corroborating evidence.
And to prevent the repetition of that cycle: Throughout the last hundred years the United States has employed more and more people, spent more and more money, and enacted stricter and stricter laws in attempts to (supposedly) reduce the social impact of certain drugs. None of this has had any significant effect in reducing the usage of or harm caused by the drugs they fight to control. In fact, the one significant reduction in drugs use we've seen is with tobacco - and this large decrease in usage happened while tobacco stayed 100% legal and minimally restricted sales-wise. It's almost as if maybe the campaigns to educate people about the genuine health consequences had something to do with it. Thus, since these additional measures are not helping and inasmuch as the effects these measures have on the lives of those they are enacted against are almost wholly negative, the combination of the war on drugs and drugs must cause more damage than drugs alone. Far more destructive? Maybe not, but consider: Without prohibition IV drug users would have better access to clean needles lessening the transmission of infectious diseases. With regulated sales, drugs will have the benefit of being distributed by someone who (1) Is legally obligated to keep drugs out of the hands of children (2) Can gurantee the purity of drugs (3) Is medically trained to give correct information regarding dosage (4) Can refer people with health problems to a hospital or treatment center (if they are addicted and wish to stop). Without strict drug laws people would be more likely to bring friends that have ODed to the hospital. Etcetera. It's obviously a seriously involved issue and if you disagree with the original statement, please tell us why - it doesn't help anything to just trade snide remarks and slogans back and forth.
posted by nTeleKy at 3:28 PM on August 17, 2005
I don't remember the drug smuggling in Tenko, though I really liked that series. I did miss the first episodes, maybe it's in there.
/facetious
posted by jb at 5:37 PM on August 17, 2005
/facetious
posted by jb at 5:37 PM on August 17, 2005
I guess my only point was that my deviant leanings in America--despite the increasingly brutal American police force--were patterns that continued in America, however those behaviors were completely squelched in Japan, not because of the police were a deterrent, but because of the justice system there, which is by nearly anyone's measure, incredibly unforgiving.
Just illustrating a bit that a strict judiciary--in Japan--has become an adequate replacement for cops who beat people at traffic stops; something that doesn't seem to be deterring much in America.
/sorry for the anti-police attitude
posted by dead_ at 7:11 AM on August 18, 2005
Just illustrating a bit that a strict judiciary--in Japan--has become an adequate replacement for cops who beat people at traffic stops; something that doesn't seem to be deterring much in America.
/sorry for the anti-police attitude
posted by dead_ at 7:11 AM on August 18, 2005
Generally speaking, tho, I would rather be accused of a crime in Japan than in the states. The wheels of justice grind slow in Japan, but our criminal justice system is just fucked six ways from Sunday.
My understanding is that the penalties for various crimes are far smaller in Japan then in the US.
posted by delmoi at 9:02 AM on August 18, 2005
My understanding is that the penalties for various crimes are far smaller in Japan then in the US.
posted by delmoi at 9:02 AM on August 18, 2005
I hate reading stuff like this. I had entertained a good opinion of Japan prior to learning of this. Now, I would be very hesitant to consider travel there. It saddens me to learn that these polite, pleasant people use such a barbaric prison and justice system.
Say what you want, but it's far less "barbaric" then the United States.
posted by delmoi at 9:12 AM on August 18, 2005
Say what you want, but it's far less "barbaric" then the United States.
posted by delmoi at 9:12 AM on August 18, 2005
I like the assertions of how barbaric Japan's court system is. What's the penalty in the US for attempting to carry drugs through customs, even if it is a friend's bag? I would imagine it's pretty harsh. Do foreigners get a jury trial?
Everyone gets a jury trial.
(Unless they're terrorists!)
posted by delmoi at 9:24 AM on August 18, 2005
Everyone gets a jury trial.
(Unless they're terrorists!)
posted by delmoi at 9:24 AM on August 18, 2005
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
For that matter, if the first thing Nick Baker did after being freed (should it happen earlier than 14 years) was to blow up a Japanese subway, wouldn't that also be perfectly just? Eye for an eye- it's right in the bible and everything! One injustice met with another- let God keep the accounting ledger.
posted by hincandenza at 6:19 PM on August 16, 2005