No More Black and White
May 10, 2006 2:30 PM Subscribe
No More Black and White. An article in the Washington Post about a census report released today shows that 45 percent of children under 5 are racial or ethnic minorities, with Hispanics the largest group.
Interestingly enough, as Andrew Sullivan notes, among the under-5 population only 4% are black, a trend he's seen in the time he's lived in Washington D.C. ("It's only gotten whiter and browner.") This has happened/is happening perhaps most dramatically in New Orleans (previously).
I don't understand what this means. So what? Blacks and whites are having less kids?
Let me know when you can say the same thing for South Dakota.
posted by graventy at 2:40 PM on May 10, 2006
Let me know when you can say the same thing for South Dakota.
posted by graventy at 2:40 PM on May 10, 2006
I guess fugitive is underlining that the white caucasian are becoming a minory in the not-so-long run ?
posted by elpapacito at 2:57 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by elpapacito at 2:57 PM on May 10, 2006
One way to figure out which is the underclass is to compare those figures to these figures: The ethnic breakdown of students admitted to Harvard
...Mexican Americans declined from 3.2 percent to 1.8 percent...
posted by vacapinta at 2:59 PM on May 10, 2006
...Mexican Americans declined from 3.2 percent to 1.8 percent...
posted by vacapinta at 2:59 PM on May 10, 2006
The "Hispanics" you're talking about are really mestizo, which means mixed race, mostly Amerindian mixed with European, African, etc. Add this US minority with the population of Mexico, part of the Caribbean and nearly all of South America... it means the Indians win and now it's time to get the fuck off their land once and for all.
It also means since we neglected to help "them" get richer as we did over the past century, they did not start having fewer kids as we did. No, it wasn't necessarily our responsibility to help them create wealth, but we sure as heck didn't have to retard it either (google "United Fruit Company" or "Central American Common Market"). Read Walter LaFeber's "Inevitable Revolutions" for a good backgrounder.
Also, one could make the argument that we enabled radical Islam to take root in Africa by not addressing poverty there (ie. in Sudan).
Our capitalism/corporatism has is not necessarily evil in itself, though it may be. The trouble is that it's extremes are what have caused excessive poverty in many locales - and at the same time possibly pushed our planet's ecology to the brink of collapse.
On a lighter note, I would really love me some quesadillas for dinner tonight.
posted by crowman at 3:04 PM on May 10, 2006
It also means since we neglected to help "them" get richer as we did over the past century, they did not start having fewer kids as we did. No, it wasn't necessarily our responsibility to help them create wealth, but we sure as heck didn't have to retard it either (google "United Fruit Company" or "Central American Common Market"). Read Walter LaFeber's "Inevitable Revolutions" for a good backgrounder.
Also, one could make the argument that we enabled radical Islam to take root in Africa by not addressing poverty there (ie. in Sudan).
Our capitalism/corporatism has is not necessarily evil in itself, though it may be. The trouble is that it's extremes are what have caused excessive poverty in many locales - and at the same time possibly pushed our planet's ecology to the brink of collapse.
On a lighter note, I would really love me some quesadillas for dinner tonight.
posted by crowman at 3:04 PM on May 10, 2006
Not sure if Washington Monthly is reliable, but they say the black-under-5 stats were a mix up
Oops
posted by johngumbo at 3:10 PM on May 10, 2006
Oops
posted by johngumbo at 3:10 PM on May 10, 2006
Mother FUCKER.
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 3:13 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 3:13 PM on May 10, 2006
Redteam: that was a joke. Just pointing out the rich irony of being "overrun" by our Hispanic brothers and sisters.
posted by crowman at 3:22 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by crowman at 3:22 PM on May 10, 2006
Naturally, we're responsible for everything. If only aliens would attack and unite humanity... sigh.
As for the link, they were discussing the eventuality of a white minority for some time now, so no big shocker. I file this into the "drag something out of the file cabinet to appear surprising and shocking" segment.
posted by Atreides at 3:23 PM on May 10, 2006
As for the link, they were discussing the eventuality of a white minority for some time now, so no big shocker. I file this into the "drag something out of the file cabinet to appear surprising and shocking" segment.
posted by Atreides at 3:23 PM on May 10, 2006
And they laughed at Blue Mink!
Oh wait. That was because they were deeply crap.
posted by Decani at 3:32 PM on May 10, 2006
Oh wait. That was because they were deeply crap.
posted by Decani at 3:32 PM on May 10, 2006
the july 1, 2005 statistics (pdf) that the chart was based upon ... the washington post screwed it up by switching the numbers for asians and blacks around
posted by pyramid termite at 3:37 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by pyramid termite at 3:37 PM on May 10, 2006
Argh, you got me, crowman. Here at college I hear that kind of pathetic garbage every week. No one actually takes the first step and leaves.
As for this brotherly invasion, I think you bring up a good point full of irony that Latinos rarely care to admit. I'm a white looking Argentine-American who receives shit and listens to outgoing shit from both sides. Whites confide their Latin invasion fears to me while Latinos insult me with a smile in Spanish (California's secret language, btw). Meanwhile I hear Whites talk about how they welcome their Latin overlords and Latinos talk about how much nicer it is here than where their folks are from. We can mix and match all day.
The point is that without European influence, Latinos wouldn't exist and they certainly wouldn't be speaking Spanish. Curses, what a mess, maybe we do need to come together on some new outgroups. Arabs don't work because of Shakira. Aliens, please strike now.
posted by redteam at 3:43 PM on May 10, 2006
As for this brotherly invasion, I think you bring up a good point full of irony that Latinos rarely care to admit. I'm a white looking Argentine-American who receives shit and listens to outgoing shit from both sides. Whites confide their Latin invasion fears to me while Latinos insult me with a smile in Spanish (California's secret language, btw). Meanwhile I hear Whites talk about how they welcome their Latin overlords and Latinos talk about how much nicer it is here than where their folks are from. We can mix and match all day.
The point is that without European influence, Latinos wouldn't exist and they certainly wouldn't be speaking Spanish. Curses, what a mess, maybe we do need to come together on some new outgroups. Arabs don't work because of Shakira. Aliens, please strike now.
posted by redteam at 3:43 PM on May 10, 2006
johngumbo, pyramid termite: Well fact checked.
It's funny how there are a bunch of US commentators who keep saying that "Europe is going to be over run by muslims" which is untrue while ignoring the massive demographic shift that is going on in the US which is surely far more important.
It will be interesting to see if the majority of the US population winds up bi-lingual, surely that would be a good thing.
posted by sien at 3:47 PM on May 10, 2006
It's funny how there are a bunch of US commentators who keep saying that "Europe is going to be over run by muslims" which is untrue while ignoring the massive demographic shift that is going on in the US which is surely far more important.
It will be interesting to see if the majority of the US population winds up bi-lingual, surely that would be a good thing.
posted by sien at 3:47 PM on May 10, 2006
johngumbo, pyramid termite: Well fact checked.
It's funny how there are a bunch of US commentators who keep saying that "Europe is going to be over run by muslims" which is untrue while ignoring the massive demographic shift that is going on in the US which is surely far more important.
It will be interesting to see if the majority of the US population winds up bi-lingual, surely that would be a good thing.
posted by sien at 3:47 PM on May 10, 2006
It's funny how there are a bunch of US commentators who keep saying that "Europe is going to be over run by muslims" which is untrue while ignoring the massive demographic shift that is going on in the US which is surely far more important.
It will be interesting to see if the majority of the US population winds up bi-lingual, surely that would be a good thing.
posted by sien at 3:47 PM on May 10, 2006
Aren't the intermarriage rates for whites, Hispanics and Asians really high? That has to be taken into account as well for predicting anything about the future racial makeup for the U.S.
posted by LarryC at 3:52 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by LarryC at 3:52 PM on May 10, 2006
oops. Double post. If the mods are watching please remove this and the dupe comment.
posted by sien at 3:53 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by sien at 3:53 PM on May 10, 2006
I always assume the Americans who say "Europe is going to be over run by muslims" are (A) Racists and (B) Living in the middle of Bumfuck, Nowhere thousands of miles from any population centers where non-white people might offend them.
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM on May 10, 2006
If people (Anglo-parents, school boards, whoever) were thinking logically, they would take the opportunity to set up biligual schools. Spanish speaking children can learn English at the same time English children are learning Spanish, and thus have another language and all the cool stuff that brings.
They have to go full on biligual though - like a morning in Spanish and afternoon in English. Nothing half-hearted - French education in Anglo Canada has shown that 1/2 hour every day singing "Frere Jacques Rock" really doesn't help you learn a second language.
posted by jb at 4:15 PM on May 10, 2006
They have to go full on biligual though - like a morning in Spanish and afternoon in English. Nothing half-hearted - French education in Anglo Canada has shown that 1/2 hour every day singing "Frere Jacques Rock" really doesn't help you learn a second language.
posted by jb at 4:15 PM on May 10, 2006
I always assume the Americans who say "Europe is going to be over run by muslims" are (A) Racists and (B) Living in the middle of Bumfuck, Nowhere thousands of miles from any population centers where non-white people might offend them.
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM PST on May 10 [!]
I think it's all about assimilation. I'm no expert on Europe, but from what I gather the arab/muslim population there does not or is not really allowed to assimilate into regular European society. The result is two competing societies - one controlling all the power (whites) and one growing at a much faster rate (arabs).
In the USA we have the same problems, but to a lesser degree. Latinos and asians, jews and folks from all over Europe have assimilated nicely. For some reason, better than blacks.
This is not to put any blame on anyone for the state of conditions in the USA. But when it's said that whites will be a minority someday, I don't think many people are threatened by that.
posted by b_thinky at 4:33 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM PST on May 10 [!]
I think it's all about assimilation. I'm no expert on Europe, but from what I gather the arab/muslim population there does not or is not really allowed to assimilate into regular European society. The result is two competing societies - one controlling all the power (whites) and one growing at a much faster rate (arabs).
In the USA we have the same problems, but to a lesser degree. Latinos and asians, jews and folks from all over Europe have assimilated nicely. For some reason, better than blacks.
This is not to put any blame on anyone for the state of conditions in the USA. But when it's said that whites will be a minority someday, I don't think many people are threatened by that.
posted by b_thinky at 4:33 PM on May 10, 2006
And, most of these Hispanic children will live in two parent homes (64%.)
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 4:33 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 4:33 PM on May 10, 2006
So the consensus on this thread is that it's time to throw in the towel on the idea of a culturally united nation-state, right? Language is one of the most fundamental building blocks of cultural identity. Language is about culture, not race. Not necessarily commenting, rather, I'd like some clarification.
posted by pieisexactlythree at 4:34 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by pieisexactlythree at 4:34 PM on May 10, 2006
Redteam: sorry, didn't mean to dump a bucket of liberal college crap on ya... those are the facts as I see em.
It seems to me a little proactive ameloriation of poverty and hate can go a long, long way even if it's done simply in your own long-term best interests.
BTW, I live in Canada and the above view might just be the "Canadian way". It may explain why there's no revolution on the northern horizon. But there's definitely something going on down in the USA. Not necessarily class revolution - but fast change, which is the true definition of revolution in the first instance. American history is just far more interesting than Canada's. I'll be nuking popcorn and watching...
posted by crowman at 4:42 PM on May 10, 2006
It seems to me a little proactive ameloriation of poverty and hate can go a long, long way even if it's done simply in your own long-term best interests.
BTW, I live in Canada and the above view might just be the "Canadian way". It may explain why there's no revolution on the northern horizon. But there's definitely something going on down in the USA. Not necessarily class revolution - but fast change, which is the true definition of revolution in the first instance. American history is just far more interesting than Canada's. I'll be nuking popcorn and watching...
posted by crowman at 4:42 PM on May 10, 2006
But when it's said that whites will be a minority someday, I don't think many people are threatened by that.
Coming from the whitest of white-bread families, let me say that I think there are millions that are very threatened by that. Me, I just joined 'em by marrying a Chicana, but the fear among white people about their eventual minority status is palpable. It's the driving factor behind the recent immigration fracas.
posted by teece at 4:42 PM on May 10, 2006
Coming from the whitest of white-bread families, let me say that I think there are millions that are very threatened by that. Me, I just joined 'em by marrying a Chicana, but the fear among white people about their eventual minority status is palpable. It's the driving factor behind the recent immigration fracas.
posted by teece at 4:42 PM on May 10, 2006
the fear among white people about their eventual minority status is palpable.
I wonder what they think will happen to them?
posted by pieisexactlythree at 4:47 PM on May 10, 2006
I wonder what they think will happen to them?
posted by pieisexactlythree at 4:47 PM on May 10, 2006
So the consensus on this thread is that it's time to throw in the towel on the idea of a culturally united nation-state, right?
we've never really had one ... as some groups join the majority culture slowly, new groups come in as outsiders ... and the majority culture has never been all that unified anyway
after ww2, we attempted an experiment with mass culture, but it started falling apart in the 70s
the culturally united nation-state has never been determined in the u s ... that's one of the things that makes us more able to deal with new groups of people
posted by pyramid termite at 4:51 PM on May 10, 2006
we've never really had one ... as some groups join the majority culture slowly, new groups come in as outsiders ... and the majority culture has never been all that unified anyway
after ww2, we attempted an experiment with mass culture, but it started falling apart in the 70s
the culturally united nation-state has never been determined in the u s ... that's one of the things that makes us more able to deal with new groups of people
posted by pyramid termite at 4:51 PM on May 10, 2006
I agree with your assessment pyramid termite. However, it would seem that speaking a common language would facilitate this process, as it has in the past. If everyone spoke a second language, that would be fine, but it's already easy enough for enclaves of non-english speakers to get by in the US. Facilitating cultural balkanization is not a good idea. It's fucked up enough here allready - "culture war", red/blue, etc.
posted by pieisexactlythree at 5:01 PM on May 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by pieisexactlythree at 5:01 PM on May 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
I live in a little town in rural Missouri that has had no appreciable immigration since the Great Depression--until huge numbers of Hispanics began showing up about a dozen years ago. The interesting thing about this immigration-hits-the-heartland scenario is how smoothly it is going. The Hispanics mostly work at some large poultry and greenhouse operations, have opened a half-dozen tiny stores and some fundamentalist Protestant churches. (A disproportionate number of them seem to be fundies rather than Catholic--is this unusual?) The local banks and autoparts stores have recently sprouted signs that read something like "Spanish spoken--on Tuesday Afternoons." The Catholic and Episcopal and probably some other churches offer Spanish services. And the Hispanics have begun to buy houses in the more run-down parts of town, fixing them up and painting them bright pastel colors. And I can now buy fresh cilantro at Walmart.
And they are assimilating, and rapidly. My son goes to kindergarten and the teacher struggles with the Hispanic kids who don't understand. But in the parks, I notice by the third grade the kids communicate exclusively in English--even in all-Hispanic groups. Children translate for their parents, or use English as a code to exclude them. The third generation will speak no Spanish at all.
posted by LarryC at 5:10 PM on May 10, 2006
And they are assimilating, and rapidly. My son goes to kindergarten and the teacher struggles with the Hispanic kids who don't understand. But in the parks, I notice by the third grade the kids communicate exclusively in English--even in all-Hispanic groups. Children translate for their parents, or use English as a code to exclude them. The third generation will speak no Spanish at all.
posted by LarryC at 5:10 PM on May 10, 2006
people aren't going to get good careers in this country if they can't speak english ... immigrants know this and most of them act accordingly
posted by pyramid termite at 5:16 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by pyramid termite at 5:16 PM on May 10, 2006
I guess that's the difference between them and the Québécois
posted by pieisexactlythree at 5:18 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by pieisexactlythree at 5:18 PM on May 10, 2006
pieisexactlythree writes "So the consensus on this thread is that it's time to throw in the towel on the idea of a culturally united nation-state, right?"
I think that time came in 1939. Culturally united nation-states have been at the root of every war for the past thousand years. It's time to try something else. Look how well it's worked for Switzerland!
posted by mr_roboto at 5:48 PM on May 10, 2006
I think that time came in 1939. Culturally united nation-states have been at the root of every war for the past thousand years. It's time to try something else. Look how well it's worked for Switzerland!
posted by mr_roboto at 5:48 PM on May 10, 2006
Look how well it's worked for Switzerland!
It hasn't worked so well in Africa or Eastern Europe. I think the key is, lots of different languages and government-issued automatic weapons. Remember, kids, an assault rifle in every home makes for polite neighbours!
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:52 PM on May 10, 2006
It hasn't worked so well in Africa or Eastern Europe. I think the key is, lots of different languages and government-issued automatic weapons. Remember, kids, an assault rifle in every home makes for polite neighbours!
posted by IshmaelGraves at 5:52 PM on May 10, 2006
Latinos and asians, jews and folks from all over Europe have assimilated nicely. For some reason, better than blacks.
Voluntary migration is very different from involuntary. Recent immigrants from Africa generally do quite well, which isn't surprising, considering that many are highly educated.
I guess that's the difference between them and the Québécois
The Québécois were guarenteed their language in 1759, and have always lived in a situation where French was the majority; the only languages that preceed them in the area were native. If I moved to Quebec, I would expect to learn French (or improve on the small bit I know) to get by, even if my work was in English.
posted by jb at 7:20 PM on May 10, 2006
Voluntary migration is very different from involuntary. Recent immigrants from Africa generally do quite well, which isn't surprising, considering that many are highly educated.
I guess that's the difference between them and the Québécois
The Québécois were guarenteed their language in 1759, and have always lived in a situation where French was the majority; the only languages that preceed them in the area were native. If I moved to Quebec, I would expect to learn French (or improve on the small bit I know) to get by, even if my work was in English.
posted by jb at 7:20 PM on May 10, 2006
Mean Mr. Bucket writes 'Maybe Latinos never wear condoms because they are all Catholic.'
Nah, we're just so much sexier, that we have way too much sex, and accidents happen, you know?
posted by signal at 7:23 PM on May 10, 2006
Nah, we're just so much sexier, that we have way too much sex, and accidents happen, you know?
posted by signal at 7:23 PM on May 10, 2006
It's also a fallacy (or at least historical revisionism) to say that Europeans assimilated nicely. Where do you think all those Irish, Italian, and Polish jokes came from? The fact that there is a "Little Italy" in NYC, a "Little Poland" in Chicago, and a "Chinatown" in nearly every big city (in Atlanta, we have fewer Chinese and more Cambodians, Vietnamese and Koreans, so their neighborhood is (pejoratively) called "Chambodia") means that the immigrants didn't assimilate. At least not for a long while. They all kept their languages and customs and cuisine, their cultures. Assimilation takes time. But as LarryC eloquently puts it, by the third generation, most people become identity-divided and nearly all will speak English. They'll still eat lots of cilantro though -- not that there's anything wrong with that (actually I'm in full support of cilantro eating of course).
posted by zpousman at 8:05 PM on May 10, 2006
posted by zpousman at 8:05 PM on May 10, 2006
BTW, I live in Canada and the above view might just be the "Canadian way". It may explain why there's no revolution on the northern horizon.
I'm not so sure about that. A long time ago I had a layover in Vancouver and the airport was full of asians. I figured they all had the same layover I did. I just went back there a few months ago (my first trip to Canada) and it seemed 60% of the population there was asian. I asked a Canadian friend of mine and he referred to it as Hong-Couver, saying tons of asians live there but the rest of the country is whiter than Wonder Bread.
Coming from the whitest of white-bread families, let me say that I think there are millions that are very threatened by that.
First of all, I think every day the "threat" feeling people have goes down as they interact with the growing "minority" population. Second, the influx of "minorities" is likely to occur in places they already exist. White people in South Dakota will likely remain a super majority. Third, I don't think the day latinos outnumber whites will feel any different. You know that guy at your office named Jose who speaks perfect english and seems like a normal guy? That's basically what we're talking about here. Not the illegals or migrant workers who our culture ignores.
posted by b_thinky at 8:26 PM on May 10, 2006
I'm not so sure about that. A long time ago I had a layover in Vancouver and the airport was full of asians. I figured they all had the same layover I did. I just went back there a few months ago (my first trip to Canada) and it seemed 60% of the population there was asian. I asked a Canadian friend of mine and he referred to it as Hong-Couver, saying tons of asians live there but the rest of the country is whiter than Wonder Bread.
Coming from the whitest of white-bread families, let me say that I think there are millions that are very threatened by that.
First of all, I think every day the "threat" feeling people have goes down as they interact with the growing "minority" population. Second, the influx of "minorities" is likely to occur in places they already exist. White people in South Dakota will likely remain a super majority. Third, I don't think the day latinos outnumber whites will feel any different. You know that guy at your office named Jose who speaks perfect english and seems like a normal guy? That's basically what we're talking about here. Not the illegals or migrant workers who our culture ignores.
posted by b_thinky at 8:26 PM on May 10, 2006
I'm not so sure about that. A long time ago I had a layover in Vancouver and the airport was full of asians. I figured they all had the same layover I did. I just went back there a few months ago (my first trip to Canada) and it seemed 60% of the population there was asian. I asked a Canadian friend of mine and he referred to it as Hong-Couver, saying tons of asians live there but the rest of the country is whiter than Wonder Bread.
Well, then your friend has never been Toronto, or Montreal for that matter. Many cities in Canada and in Ontario in particular are very ethnicly diverse.
posted by crowman at 8:45 PM on May 10, 2006
Well, then your friend has never been Toronto, or Montreal for that matter. Many cities in Canada and in Ontario in particular are very ethnicly diverse.
posted by crowman at 8:45 PM on May 10, 2006
The majority of people in Toronto (okay, a slim majority of about 53%) are what Stats Can calls "visible minorities", meaning non-white and non-Aboriginal Canadians. I think I also read somewhere that Toronto has one of the highest percentages of people born outside of the country.
That said, visible minorities are only 9% of all Canadians, so yes, much of the country outside of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver is either white or Aboriginal.
posted by jb at 10:37 AM on May 11, 2006
That said, visible minorities are only 9% of all Canadians, so yes, much of the country outside of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver is either white or Aboriginal.
posted by jb at 10:37 AM on May 11, 2006
I think alot of hong kong residents came to vancouver with their kids before the hand over of hong kong back to China, and then alot ended up staying. The only thing that changed for me growing up was that instead of drinking beer at highschool house parties I only got used to smirnoff ice, and other similar drinks. Dont even like beer that much (guess its what you get used to as a kid).
posted by Iax at 11:39 AM on May 12, 2006
posted by Iax at 11:39 AM on May 12, 2006
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posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 2:33 PM on May 10, 2006