"We do not torture." -- G.W.B. 7/11/05
June 5, 2006 4:39 AM Subscribe
The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee policies a key tenet of the Geneva Conventions that explicitly bans "humiliating and degrading treatment," according to knowledgeable military officials, a step that would mark a further shift away from strict adherence to international human rights standards.
If someday American prisoners are stripped naked, assembled into human pyramids, and photographed, I don't want to hear any whining.
And that's unfortunately pretty much what it's gonna take.
posted by three blind mice at 5:02 AM on June 5, 2006
And that's unfortunately pretty much what it's gonna take.
posted by three blind mice at 5:02 AM on June 5, 2006
"Playing by 'the rules' again"?
'The Rules' used to be about setting a standard for the rest of the world, even though smart people knew that lots of other stuff was going on sub rosa.
Now that the mask has fallen, there may be no turning back, especially if the US isn't there to uphold a standard of human rights and decency.
I don't see how the US can mentor some brave new world of Democratic™ standards if we're running things like the old KGB or China.
Thank Beelzebub, instead.
posted by vhsiv at 5:10 AM on June 5, 2006
'The Rules' used to be about setting a standard for the rest of the world, even though smart people knew that lots of other stuff was going on sub rosa.
Now that the mask has fallen, there may be no turning back, especially if the US isn't there to uphold a standard of human rights and decency.
I don't see how the US can mentor some brave new world of Democratic™ standards if we're running things like the old KGB or China.
Thank Beelzebub, instead.
posted by vhsiv at 5:10 AM on June 5, 2006
I don't see how the US can mentor some brave new world of Democratic™ standards if we're running things like the old KGB or China.
Agreed
posted by caddis at 5:22 AM on June 5, 2006
Agreed
posted by caddis at 5:22 AM on June 5, 2006
Are bombers really this dumb?
posted by pracowity at 5:31 AM on June 5, 2006
Many intelligence soldiers consider questioning the manhood of male prisoners to be an effective and humane technique. Suggesting to a suspected insurgent that he is "not man enough" to have set an improvised explosive device will sometimes elicit a full description of how he placed the bomb, soldiers say."To tell you the truth, Steven, we don't believe -- and I hope you understand that I am saying this in as humane a manner as I can -- we don't believe you are quite man enough to wire a telephone to a detonator. We believe, and I'm sure you will agree, that only men with adequate genitalia and a strong natural desire for women are capable of such construction."
posted by pracowity at 5:31 AM on June 5, 2006
Well, gee, Mr. Soldier, sir, it's true, what you say. My dick is too small and I prefer sex with big, hunky, strong men, like yourself! What say you let me out of here, and meet me after your shift? It's clear I'm hear by mistake. I'll polish your knob and shine your shoes too!
Isn't it funny how this 'christian' president embraces evil with such insistence? I know it's terribly old-fashioned of me to believe in good and evil, but I do. I never expected to see it arrayed before me in such blatant, broad-daylight ways though. At least, not before December 2000 came and went.
posted by Goofyy at 5:39 AM on June 5, 2006
Isn't it funny how this 'christian' president embraces evil with such insistence? I know it's terribly old-fashioned of me to believe in good and evil, but I do. I never expected to see it arrayed before me in such blatant, broad-daylight ways though. At least, not before December 2000 came and went.
posted by Goofyy at 5:39 AM on June 5, 2006
Indeed. I've never seen anyone as non-Christian as that guy.
posted by agregoli at 6:53 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by agregoli at 6:53 AM on June 5, 2006
I don't want to hear any whining.
Oh, there will be whining. The rules don't apply to us, but they do for everyone else. Remember when five American POWs were show on Iraqi TV at the beginning of the war and Rumsfeld complained that:
it is against the Geneva convention to show photographs of prisoners of war in a manner that is humiliating for them.Or Americans' outrage when a Chinese plane crashed into our spy plane?
I don't see how the US can mentor some brave new world of Democratic™ standards if we're running things like the old KGB or China.
Simple. Do as I say, not as I do. 'Cause I'm the dad.
Thank God the US is playing by the rules again.
You mean not returning phone calls, never initiating contact, being a mystery, and not having sex on the first date? That pretty much explains our diplomatic strategy with Iran and North Korea.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:55 AM on June 5, 2006
Many intelligence soldiers consider questioning the manhood of male prisoners to be an effective and humane technique.
Oddly enough, I've seen this technique used by debt collectors.
posted by trondant at 7:01 AM on June 5, 2006
Oddly enough, I've seen this technique used by debt collectors.
posted by trondant at 7:01 AM on June 5, 2006
How quaint. It's so 16th Century.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:34 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:34 AM on June 5, 2006
That's very worrying.
Although since the Hague Invasion Act are into effect, we already knew the US(gov?) gives a damn about international law..
posted by borq at 7:53 AM on June 5, 2006
Although since the Hague Invasion Act are into effect, we already knew the US(gov?) gives a damn about international law..
posted by borq at 7:53 AM on June 5, 2006
What the fuck is with Americans and torture?
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
posted by Artw at 7:54 AM on June 5, 2006
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
posted by Artw at 7:54 AM on June 5, 2006
"They" aren't truly human anyway so its OK to humiliate, torture, maim, and kill them.
Everyone needs to get on board with this before a terrorist scares you!
BOO!!
See how that works?
posted by nofundy at 7:56 AM on June 5, 2006
Everyone needs to get on board with this before a terrorist scares you!
BOO!!
See how that works?
posted by nofundy at 7:56 AM on June 5, 2006
What the fuck is with Americans and torture?
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
Now now, I hate the fascist US administration as much as the next foreigner but you do realise your sweeping generalisation is a bit out of order.
posted by twistedonion at 7:57 AM on June 5, 2006
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
Now now, I hate the fascist US administration as much as the next foreigner but you do realise your sweeping generalisation is a bit out of order.
posted by twistedonion at 7:57 AM on June 5, 2006
I don't think it is out of order and I am American. If enough citizens spoke up the administration would back away from this nonsense. Too many citizens are pussies. They are so terrified of big, bad al Qaeda or the bogeyman, that they will stomach anything to keep safe - lose their privacy, allow their government to torture, whatever. The ends justify the means. It's a numbers game and so far the number of complainers is not high enough.
posted by caddis at 8:12 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by caddis at 8:12 AM on June 5, 2006
The heart of the debate appears to be how the purposefully ambiguous nature of Article 3 of the Geneva Convention would play out in US courtrooms and how the gravity of that discussion weighs against international relations. Which has always been the debate over international policy vs US policy.
Both sides seem to be drawing approximately the same line between acceptable and unacceptable interrogation. It's just that one side wants to use the international standard for clarity throughout the world, while the other wants to cover its ass from lawsuits. It's the same old song.
As far as what it means for actual abuses... A "grave breach" of the Geneva Convention that surfaces publicly is going to be met with the same response in the world community whether a nation officially abides by the Geneva Convention or not. Abu Ghraib is a prime example. And let's be honest with ourselves, the abuses that publicly surface are going to be the only ones that are effected.
Also, I find it hard to believe any nation that participates in interrogation is in compliance with Article 3 legalistically. The Defense Department's concern is a fair one, even if their ultimate decision isn't the best.
posted by pokermonk at 8:14 AM on June 5, 2006
Both sides seem to be drawing approximately the same line between acceptable and unacceptable interrogation. It's just that one side wants to use the international standard for clarity throughout the world, while the other wants to cover its ass from lawsuits. It's the same old song.
As far as what it means for actual abuses... A "grave breach" of the Geneva Convention that surfaces publicly is going to be met with the same response in the world community whether a nation officially abides by the Geneva Convention or not. Abu Ghraib is a prime example. And let's be honest with ourselves, the abuses that publicly surface are going to be the only ones that are effected.
Also, I find it hard to believe any nation that participates in interrogation is in compliance with Article 3 legalistically. The Defense Department's concern is a fair one, even if their ultimate decision isn't the best.
posted by pokermonk at 8:14 AM on June 5, 2006
What the fuck is with Americans and torture?
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
There are plenty of us who are disgusted with the current idiocy in power. What exactly can we EFFECTIVELY do about it?
posted by yoga at 8:14 AM on June 5, 2006
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?
There are plenty of us who are disgusted with the current idiocy in power. What exactly can we EFFECTIVELY do about it?
posted by yoga at 8:14 AM on June 5, 2006
I'm not as afraid of boogeymen or al Qaeda as I am of my own government.
posted by agregoli at 8:14 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by agregoli at 8:14 AM on June 5, 2006
The article seemed to state that the military lawyers were arguing FOR inclusion, but that they were overruled by their civilian leadership. I point this out only as an interesting bit of information that the military legal community does not seem to be in complete lockstep with the administration.
posted by forforf at 8:18 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by forforf at 8:18 AM on June 5, 2006
I don't think it is out of order and I am American
Great, thing is a statement like "What the fuck is with Americans and torture?" is too similar to "What the fuck is with Palestinians and suicide?"
And I just don't like statements that can be used as justification to prejudice. I'm sure there a few good Americans. I know I've met one or two.
posted by twistedonion at 8:20 AM on June 5, 2006
Great, thing is a statement like "What the fuck is with Americans and torture?" is too similar to "What the fuck is with Palestinians and suicide?"
And I just don't like statements that can be used as justification to prejudice. I'm sure there a few good Americans. I know I've met one or two.
posted by twistedonion at 8:20 AM on June 5, 2006
So wait, this is exactly what Prince Charming (Cheney) was trying to get passed legally and it didn't pass so now they're just going to go ahead and "decide" that they can torture people?
agregoli, me too!
Dick and Bush are the worst terrorist threats I know of.
posted by fenriq at 8:24 AM on June 5, 2006
agregoli, me too!
Dick and Bush are the worst terrorist threats I know of.
posted by fenriq at 8:24 AM on June 5, 2006
There's a compelling moral equivalency argument to be made here.
From the US standpoint we've admitted we're ok with dropping bombs or missiles on people from behind our nice shiny war toys. Just because we don't see the 15 children and 9 elderly women that died as a direct result of pushing a button dosent mean that they didn't burn to death.
What's the real difference between killing unseen children and torturing some prisoners? Hardly that either suffered more or less- and it would actually make more sense to inflict pain on someone (supposedly) caught in the act of aggression against US forces than on kids playing in the street.
We've already accepted the former, that the later gets everyone so riled up is somewhat hypocritical. Not that the American public really sees the results of either action. If our media actually showed us what was really going on in war, doubtless we'd be more reluctant to permit the wholesale slaughter of civilians. Or at least be more humble about it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:28 AM on June 5, 2006
From the US standpoint we've admitted we're ok with dropping bombs or missiles on people from behind our nice shiny war toys. Just because we don't see the 15 children and 9 elderly women that died as a direct result of pushing a button dosent mean that they didn't burn to death.
What's the real difference between killing unseen children and torturing some prisoners? Hardly that either suffered more or less- and it would actually make more sense to inflict pain on someone (supposedly) caught in the act of aggression against US forces than on kids playing in the street.
We've already accepted the former, that the later gets everyone so riled up is somewhat hypocritical. Not that the American public really sees the results of either action. If our media actually showed us what was really going on in war, doubtless we'd be more reluctant to permit the wholesale slaughter of civilians. Or at least be more humble about it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:28 AM on June 5, 2006
Indeed. I've never seen anyone as non-Christian as that guy.
I refuse to believe that he is competent enough to make judgements on his own.
posted by j-urb at 8:31 AM on June 5, 2006
I refuse to believe that he is competent enough to make judgements on his own.
posted by j-urb at 8:31 AM on June 5, 2006
What exactly can we EFFECTIVELY do about it?
erm, if I understand it right there's no legal way of getting Bush&Co out of office unless they do something against the law (which they change quickly before doing it...)?
How about: stop paying your taxes, put them on your savingsaccount for the next administration... take away their allowance
posted by borq at 8:42 AM on June 5, 2006
erm, if I understand it right there's no legal way of getting Bush&Co out of office unless they do something against the law (which they change quickly before doing it...)?
How about: stop paying your taxes, put them on your savingsaccount for the next administration... take away their allowance
posted by borq at 8:42 AM on June 5, 2006
Since we didn't even elect these fuckers, twice, is it really the fault of the American people?
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 8:43 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 8:43 AM on June 5, 2006
I refuse to believe that he is competent enough to make judgements on his own.
At least untill what ever drugs they have Bush on wear off, we can't do a damn thing..
posted by Elim at 8:48 AM on June 5, 2006
At least untill what ever drugs they have Bush on wear off, we can't do a damn thing..
posted by Elim at 8:48 AM on June 5, 2006
Re: 'playing by the rules'
That was a sarcastic comment on the fact that apparently the Pentagon feels compelled to bend the rules in such a way that they can 'legally' keep on torturing.
posted by beno at 8:53 AM on June 5, 2006
That was a sarcastic comment on the fact that apparently the Pentagon feels compelled to bend the rules in such a way that they can 'legally' keep on torturing.
posted by beno at 8:53 AM on June 5, 2006
Since we didn't even elect these fuckers, twice, is it really the fault of the American people?
Ding. We've essentially got the mafia running the country.
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:54 AM on June 5, 2006
Ding. We've essentially got the mafia running the country.
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:54 AM on June 5, 2006
Doesn't the McCain amendment apply to US military detainees? Doesn't US law trump Pentagon regulations?
posted by mr_roboto at 8:56 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by mr_roboto at 8:56 AM on June 5, 2006
George Bush put a "signing statement" at the end of the McCain Amendment saying basically that he reserves the right to ignore the law if he really wants to.
posted by Jatayu das at 9:27 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by Jatayu das at 9:27 AM on June 5, 2006
Thank God the US is playing by the rules again.
You mean not returning phone calls, never initiating contact, being a mystery, and not having sex on the first date? That pretty much explains our diplomatic strategy with Iran and North Korea.
Awesome comment by kirkaracha. All in all, it might be for the best; do we really want Kim Jong Il and Condoleezza Rice to have a kid?
A good discussion with Glenn Greenwald at FDL on fear being used to sell boundless emergency powers. More on this malarky can be found here.
John Adams: "Fear is the foundation of most governments, but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to aprove of any political institution which is founded on it."
Justice Robert Jackson on the nation’s founders: "We may also suspect that they suspected that emergency powers would tend to kindle emergencies."
posted by ibmcginty at 9:32 AM on June 5, 2006
You mean not returning phone calls, never initiating contact, being a mystery, and not having sex on the first date? That pretty much explains our diplomatic strategy with Iran and North Korea.
Awesome comment by kirkaracha. All in all, it might be for the best; do we really want Kim Jong Il and Condoleezza Rice to have a kid?
A good discussion with Glenn Greenwald at FDL on fear being used to sell boundless emergency powers. More on this malarky can be found here.
John Adams: "Fear is the foundation of most governments, but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to aprove of any political institution which is founded on it."
Justice Robert Jackson on the nation’s founders: "We may also suspect that they suspected that emergency powers would tend to kindle emergencies."
posted by ibmcginty at 9:32 AM on June 5, 2006
Doesn't US law trump Pentagon regulations?
Signing statements. The Executive doesn't have to follow laws that it thinks infringe on the Executive.
posted by eriko at 9:36 AM on June 5, 2006
Signing statements. The Executive doesn't have to follow laws that it thinks infringe on the Executive.
posted by eriko at 9:36 AM on June 5, 2006
Signing statements. The Executive doesn't have to follow laws that it thinks infringe on the Executive.
Which is every law.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:52 AM on June 5, 2006
Which is every law.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:52 AM on June 5, 2006
Since we didn't even elect these fuckers, twice, is it really the fault of the American people?
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus
No, it's not our 'fault;' however, it is our responsibility to fix it.
I think that means putting Dems in the majority in both houses this year and impeach and impeach and impeach.
If we can't fix it at the polls...well..."Don't tread on me!"
posted by taosbat at 10:04 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus
No, it's not our 'fault;' however, it is our responsibility to fix it.
I think that means putting Dems in the majority in both houses this year and impeach and impeach and impeach.
If we can't fix it at the polls...well..."Don't tread on me!"
posted by taosbat at 10:04 AM on June 5, 2006
Many intelligence soldiers consider questioning the manhood of male prisoners to be an effective and humane technique.
Works on CSI all the time.
posted by NationalKato at 10:21 AM on June 5, 2006
Works on CSI all the time.
posted by NationalKato at 10:21 AM on June 5, 2006
re: doing something about it.
I don’t know how much press Abbie Hoffman would get today.
I do know there are many celebs that oppose the Bush admin. Shouldn’t be too hard with that kind of talent to get national attention.
I can’t say I agreed with much of Hoffman’s lifestyle (particularly the dispair at the end - but I haven’t walked in his shoes so I’m not putting him down) but he certainly got attention for his cause.
Comedy and particularly theater is the best last recourse. Hell, look at Socrates.
Thowing money at the NYSE was pretty funny.
Attempting to levitate the pentagon with psychic energy was for it’s time, genius.
We’d need something in the current mythos - tech, computers perhaps - something Neo-esque maybe.
50,000 Mr. Smiths or Neos outside the pentagon - wordless. That’d be something.
I know I’m horse from shouting at my congressman.
Troy Garity is Tom Hayden’s kid isn’t he?
- I mean what is weird is how little underground work is being done.
Clearly people think they can still make headway from within the system on issues like this. I just don’t see it.
Anyway, I wouldn’t be yelling “impeach” that’s far too rational.
The best method right now would be exorcism. Clearly Bush is possessed by demons and those demons must be driven out. You’re a good Christian, aren’t you? You see that it must be demons that are leading the president astray, don’t you?
Bush is a good Christian man, he wouldn’t be doing this otherwise.
(or whatever the Chick-tract reading, neo-con, Christian blah, etc. etc. mythos they’re buying into).
Hmmm...y’know who is deceptively spiritual? Strippers.
Get them to help with their psychic energy to exorcise the President.
At least for the exterior component. The ‘interior’ component would be very serious and grave, perhaps a Doctor of Theology or a minister of some kind, grey at the temples, bible in hand, with all earnestness diagnosing Bush as in need of exorcism....yeah.
I’m with taosbat - it’s our responsibility to fix this mess. People are being tortured. I’d go to jail to stop that if need be, yeah.
/Man, I wish I was a little smarter and had a talent for organization, I’ve got plenty of screwy ideas that would probably work (get media attention, put the admin on the defensive, etc). The Chicago ‘Burbs, as wonderful as they are, are a desert.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:43 AM on June 5, 2006
I don’t know how much press Abbie Hoffman would get today.
I do know there are many celebs that oppose the Bush admin. Shouldn’t be too hard with that kind of talent to get national attention.
I can’t say I agreed with much of Hoffman’s lifestyle (particularly the dispair at the end - but I haven’t walked in his shoes so I’m not putting him down) but he certainly got attention for his cause.
Comedy and particularly theater is the best last recourse. Hell, look at Socrates.
Thowing money at the NYSE was pretty funny.
Attempting to levitate the pentagon with psychic energy was for it’s time, genius.
We’d need something in the current mythos - tech, computers perhaps - something Neo-esque maybe.
50,000 Mr. Smiths or Neos outside the pentagon - wordless. That’d be something.
I know I’m horse from shouting at my congressman.
Troy Garity is Tom Hayden’s kid isn’t he?
- I mean what is weird is how little underground work is being done.
Clearly people think they can still make headway from within the system on issues like this. I just don’t see it.
Anyway, I wouldn’t be yelling “impeach” that’s far too rational.
The best method right now would be exorcism. Clearly Bush is possessed by demons and those demons must be driven out. You’re a good Christian, aren’t you? You see that it must be demons that are leading the president astray, don’t you?
Bush is a good Christian man, he wouldn’t be doing this otherwise.
(or whatever the Chick-tract reading, neo-con, Christian blah, etc. etc. mythos they’re buying into).
Hmmm...y’know who is deceptively spiritual? Strippers.
Get them to help with their psychic energy to exorcise the President.
At least for the exterior component. The ‘interior’ component would be very serious and grave, perhaps a Doctor of Theology or a minister of some kind, grey at the temples, bible in hand, with all earnestness diagnosing Bush as in need of exorcism....yeah.
I’m with taosbat - it’s our responsibility to fix this mess. People are being tortured. I’d go to jail to stop that if need be, yeah.
/Man, I wish I was a little smarter and had a talent for organization, I’ve got plenty of screwy ideas that would probably work (get media attention, put the admin on the defensive, etc). The Chicago ‘Burbs, as wonderful as they are, are a desert.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:43 AM on June 5, 2006
There are things that could be done. People are just mollycoddled by their TV sets, and afraid.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:32 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by stinkycheese at 11:32 AM on June 5, 2006
.
posted by russilwvong at 11:34 AM on June 5, 2006
posted by russilwvong at 11:34 AM on June 5, 2006
Re The US Hague invasion act: thanks to the Germans we are prepared for this. The atlantikwall is waiting for your arrival.
yes, yes, Godwin again.
posted by jouke at 11:50 AM on June 5, 2006
yes, yes, Godwin again.
posted by jouke at 11:50 AM on June 5, 2006
Isn't it funny how this 'christian' president embraces evil with such insistence? I know it's terribly old-fashioned of me to believe in good and evil, but I do. I never expected to see it arrayed before me in such blatant, broad-daylight ways though. At least, not before December 2000 came and went.
If I were a dispensational premillenialist, I'd be strongly tempted to believe Mr. Bush was the Antichrist. I can't imagine someone coming in the guise of a "godly man" more diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus.
In any case, I think Smedleyman's hit it on the head once again. We need large-scale, organized, non-violent resistance. We need an Underground Railroad, a White Rose Society, an ANC. We need to do something, and we need to do it en masse. And we need to do it soon.
posted by EarBucket at 12:53 PM on June 5, 2006
If I were a dispensational premillenialist, I'd be strongly tempted to believe Mr. Bush was the Antichrist. I can't imagine someone coming in the guise of a "godly man" more diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus.
In any case, I think Smedleyman's hit it on the head once again. We need large-scale, organized, non-violent resistance. We need an Underground Railroad, a White Rose Society, an ANC. We need to do something, and we need to do it en masse. And we need to do it soon.
posted by EarBucket at 12:53 PM on June 5, 2006
We need to do something, and we need to do it en masse. And we need to do it soon.
posted by EarBucket
Lieberman faces showdown over Iraq
Mon Jun 5, 2006 3:46pm ET
By John Whitesides, Political Correspondent
MERIDEN, Connecticut (Reuters) - After years of ardent support for the Iraq war, Connecticut Sen. Joseph Lieberman could become that conflict's first big political casualty in a Democratic primary race fueled by rising anti-war anger.
Lieberman, the party's vice presidential nominee in 2000, faces a growing challenge from a political neophyte who has rallied Democrats angered by the senator's enthusiastic backing of the war and willingness to support Republican President George W. Bush on other issues.
Challenger Ned Lamont's underdog bid to unseat Lieberman in Democratic-leaning Connecticut could offer an early gauge of the intensity of anti-war sentiment ahead of November's midterm elections, along with a measure of the influence of the Internet activists and bloggers who have flocked to his cause...
My emphasis. I don't have much money but I got my mom and some friends interested in throwing out that Lieberman trash. They have some money, none of live in Connecticut, very few are really Dems.
posted by taosbat at 1:22 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by EarBucket
Lieberman faces showdown over Iraq
Mon Jun 5, 2006 3:46pm ET
By John Whitesides, Political Correspondent
MERIDEN, Connecticut (Reuters) - After years of ardent support for the Iraq war, Connecticut Sen. Joseph Lieberman could become that conflict's first big political casualty in a Democratic primary race fueled by rising anti-war anger.
Lieberman, the party's vice presidential nominee in 2000, faces a growing challenge from a political neophyte who has rallied Democrats angered by the senator's enthusiastic backing of the war and willingness to support Republican President George W. Bush on other issues.
Challenger Ned Lamont's underdog bid to unseat Lieberman in Democratic-leaning Connecticut could offer an early gauge of the intensity of anti-war sentiment ahead of November's midterm elections, along with a measure of the influence of the Internet activists and bloggers who have flocked to his cause...
My emphasis. I don't have much money but I got my mom and some friends interested in throwing out that Lieberman trash. They have some money, none of live in Connecticut, very few are really Dems.
posted by taosbat at 1:22 PM on June 5, 2006
What the fuck is with Americans and torture?
and
Great, thing is a statement like "What the fuck is with Americans and torture?" is too similar to "What the fuck is with Palestinians and suicide?"
Those are both fair questions. I think the Palestinians should be asking themselves that. But I ain't Palestinian.
As an American I have been asking myself the first one - or similar questions - a great deal lately.
WHAT the fuck IS wrong with us? I'll tell you what. We are lazy and want somebody ELSE to do our hard and dirty work. We don't want our comfortable lives too disrupted. We want it to be easy to change things. We want it to be peaceful. So we are lazy.
I'm sick to death of lefty Americans saying "it's not my fault Bush got (or DIDN'T get) elected and did this all this stuff, not me". Bullshit. Who's fault is it, then?
We knew better. In 2000 we knew better (In 2004 we sure as shit knew better). Some of us were even SURE a war was on the horizon should Bush get elected. And then the voter shenanigans. Some of us were even sure Bush stole the elections.
MOST of us on the left were sure this war was total bullshit.
And what did we do? Not a goddamned thing.
Don't give me this shit about blogs, petitions, peace pot lucks, getting the word out, marches and Cindy Sheehan. Yeah I did all that, too. And we should have known it wasn't going to work.
We should be asking what the fuck is wrong with us. And stop pretending it's the other guys fault. If we know better then we have to what ever it takes to get this country back on course.
Where is the outrage and the riots. For fuck sake? Why should Bush even attempt to care that now a full 2/3rds of the country is against him... he knows we won't do shit about it.
We pay the taxes. We elect these sheep democrats. We go to work every day and buy stuff everyday essentially pretending what we do day to day is not a tacit endorsement of what goes on in the world in our name. That it's all some colossal cosmic accident we live the cushy lives we live.
You pay for the machine. Don't ever say it's not your fault what the machine does.
posted by tkchrist at 1:58 PM on June 5, 2006
and
Great, thing is a statement like "What the fuck is with Americans and torture?" is too similar to "What the fuck is with Palestinians and suicide?"
Those are both fair questions. I think the Palestinians should be asking themselves that. But I ain't Palestinian.
As an American I have been asking myself the first one - or similar questions - a great deal lately.
WHAT the fuck IS wrong with us? I'll tell you what. We are lazy and want somebody ELSE to do our hard and dirty work. We don't want our comfortable lives too disrupted. We want it to be easy to change things. We want it to be peaceful. So we are lazy.
I'm sick to death of lefty Americans saying "it's not my fault Bush got (or DIDN'T get) elected and did this all this stuff, not me". Bullshit. Who's fault is it, then?
We knew better. In 2000 we knew better (In 2004 we sure as shit knew better). Some of us were even SURE a war was on the horizon should Bush get elected. And then the voter shenanigans. Some of us were even sure Bush stole the elections.
MOST of us on the left were sure this war was total bullshit.
And what did we do? Not a goddamned thing.
Don't give me this shit about blogs, petitions, peace pot lucks, getting the word out, marches and Cindy Sheehan. Yeah I did all that, too. And we should have known it wasn't going to work.
We should be asking what the fuck is wrong with us. And stop pretending it's the other guys fault. If we know better then we have to what ever it takes to get this country back on course.
Where is the outrage and the riots. For fuck sake? Why should Bush even attempt to care that now a full 2/3rds of the country is against him... he knows we won't do shit about it.
We pay the taxes. We elect these sheep democrats. We go to work every day and buy stuff everyday essentially pretending what we do day to day is not a tacit endorsement of what goes on in the world in our name. That it's all some colossal cosmic accident we live the cushy lives we live.
You pay for the machine. Don't ever say it's not your fault what the machine does.
posted by tkchrist at 1:58 PM on June 5, 2006
We need an Underground Railroad, a White Rose Society, an ANC. We need to do something, and we need to do it en masse. And we need to do it soon.
Occupy the Mall. Get as many there as possible. I sold my share of my business and am free in August. Right before those elections.
Let's occupy the Mall for as long as it takes. We get a million normal everyday people with nice short hair and bright smiles giving up their comforts and living like hobos for three of four months it's bound to have an effect.
And if it doesn't we politely and quietly walk over to OUR Whitehouse and we don't leave until Bush does.
posted by tkchrist at 2:29 PM on June 5, 2006
Occupy the Mall. Get as many there as possible. I sold my share of my business and am free in August. Right before those elections.
Let's occupy the Mall for as long as it takes. We get a million normal everyday people with nice short hair and bright smiles giving up their comforts and living like hobos for three of four months it's bound to have an effect.
And if it doesn't we politely and quietly walk over to OUR Whitehouse and we don't leave until Bush does.
posted by tkchrist at 2:29 PM on June 5, 2006
The board of governors of the American Bar Association voted unanimously yesterday to investigate whether President Bush has exceeded his constitutional authority in reserving the right to ignore more than 750 laws that have been enacted since he took office. link
posted by caddis at 2:41 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by caddis at 2:41 PM on June 5, 2006
Occupy the Mall. Get as many there as possible. I sold my share of my business and am free in August. Right before those elections.
Let's do it. Let's organize it.
Part of me pictures a re-enactment of the Boston Tea Party. Thousands of people throwing teabags into the Reflecting Pool. Remind 'em of what we do with kings named George.
posted by EarBucket at 2:50 PM on June 5, 2006
Let's do it. Let's organize it.
Part of me pictures a re-enactment of the Boston Tea Party. Thousands of people throwing teabags into the Reflecting Pool. Remind 'em of what we do with kings named George.
posted by EarBucket at 2:50 PM on June 5, 2006
Just warn you I am a terrible organizer. For what should be obvious reasons by now.
posted by tkchrist at 3:18 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by tkchrist at 3:18 PM on June 5, 2006
tkchrist -
"You pay for the machine. Don't ever say it's not your fault what the machine does."
Oh bullshit. I agree with you 90% of the time, TK, but that's crap.
Nothing short of armed insurrection was going to keep the Bush cabal out of office.
We lefties did what we could. We talked sense and we told the truth.
It just wasn't enough against the combined forces of Bush's cheating in Florida and Ohio, stupid republicons, and Bible-beating buttholes.
Don’t pin that shit on me. I will have to live with the consequences of it, but it wasn’t me steering the ship, and I sure as hell wasn’t supporting the choice of captains.
posted by rougy at 5:48 PM on June 5, 2006
"You pay for the machine. Don't ever say it's not your fault what the machine does."
Oh bullshit. I agree with you 90% of the time, TK, but that's crap.
Nothing short of armed insurrection was going to keep the Bush cabal out of office.
We lefties did what we could. We talked sense and we told the truth.
It just wasn't enough against the combined forces of Bush's cheating in Florida and Ohio, stupid republicons, and Bible-beating buttholes.
Don’t pin that shit on me. I will have to live with the consequences of it, but it wasn’t me steering the ship, and I sure as hell wasn’t supporting the choice of captains.
posted by rougy at 5:48 PM on June 5, 2006
"The pied pipers of populism will only lead people backwards, while globalization and the rest of the world looks ahead," said U.S. Deputy Secretary of State
Robert Zoellick...
posted by taosbat at 5:55 PM on June 5, 2006
Robert Zoellick...
posted by taosbat at 5:55 PM on June 5, 2006
I realized my long, histrionic comment could be boiled down to something much more succinct: fuck you, America.
Don’t pin that shit on me.
On the contrary, I'm pinning that shit right on you, and the rest of the Americans, regardless of who they voted for. You broke it, you sons of bitches, you goddamn well fix it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:24 PM on June 5, 2006
Don’t pin that shit on me.
On the contrary, I'm pinning that shit right on you, and the rest of the Americans, regardless of who they voted for. You broke it, you sons of bitches, you goddamn well fix it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:24 PM on June 5, 2006
Fuck you, stavros.
Thanks for the support, asshole.
How do you think it feels to work so hard to do the right thing and get shit on by people like you for our efforts?
It hurt. Thanks for grinding the salt in the wound, pig.
posted by rougy at 6:49 PM on June 5, 2006
Thanks for the support, asshole.
How do you think it feels to work so hard to do the right thing and get shit on by people like you for our efforts?
It hurt. Thanks for grinding the salt in the wound, pig.
posted by rougy at 6:49 PM on June 5, 2006
Yep; not called for, stav. I hate fundamentalists and assholes with just as much a passion as anyone, but don't lump me in with them because of where I was born, and live. A great many Americans are bad, many are just ignorant, and many, many more are upset with the first two categories of their countrymen. Give us time, and some understanding. It's not easy turning things around after they've gone this wrong.
posted by yhbc at 6:56 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by yhbc at 6:56 PM on June 5, 2006
a step that would mark a further shift away from strict adherence to international human rights standards.
This would probably be better phrased as "a formal reflection of a long-past substantive shift away from adherence to international human rights standards".
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:10 PM on June 5, 2006
This would probably be better phrased as "a formal reflection of a long-past substantive shift away from adherence to international human rights standards".
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:10 PM on June 5, 2006
On the contrary, I'm pinning that shit right on you, and the rest of the Americans, regardless of who they voted for. You broke it, you sons of bitches, you goddamn well fix it.
Help us out. Start a boycott. Amnesty members write letters!
posted by overanxious ducksqueezer at 7:10 PM on June 5, 2006
Help us out. Start a boycott. Amnesty members write letters!
posted by overanxious ducksqueezer at 7:10 PM on June 5, 2006
Fuck you, stavros.
*shrugs*
It's not like I expected a different response.
Thanks for the support, asshole.
You need my support to do the right thing? Nonsense. And even if it were so, I've been doing it, careful to differentiate my hatred for your country from my love for its people, for years, and now, well, I'm done. The hell with you. I'm content to watch your nation decline into evil and madness and irrelevance, and short of violence, I'm happy to do what I can to hasten that.
How do you think it feels to work so hard to do the right thing and get shit on by people like you for our efforts?
Not as bad as getting tortured, I'd guess.
It hurt. Thanks for grinding the salt in the wound, pig.
Strong words, friend. Ah well, I must say that I hope that salt stings like a motherfucker. Perhaps it's not too late, as yhbc suggests.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:21 PM on June 5, 2006
*shrugs*
It's not like I expected a different response.
Thanks for the support, asshole.
You need my support to do the right thing? Nonsense. And even if it were so, I've been doing it, careful to differentiate my hatred for your country from my love for its people, for years, and now, well, I'm done. The hell with you. I'm content to watch your nation decline into evil and madness and irrelevance, and short of violence, I'm happy to do what I can to hasten that.
How do you think it feels to work so hard to do the right thing and get shit on by people like you for our efforts?
Not as bad as getting tortured, I'd guess.
It hurt. Thanks for grinding the salt in the wound, pig.
Strong words, friend. Ah well, I must say that I hope that salt stings like a motherfucker. Perhaps it's not too late, as yhbc suggests.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:21 PM on June 5, 2006
Help maintain a healthy, respectful discussion by focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand -- not at other members of the site.
posted by Richard Daly at 7:46 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by Richard Daly at 7:46 PM on June 5, 2006
I don't get why people voted for Bush and the Republican Congress. Yeah, the election was swiped, but not by much. Until the rest of America gets a clue, and the Democrats get a cohesive agenda, we're fucked. Time to get really serious about really good candidates for the 2006 elections, and, more so, the 2008 elections. No more Nader bullshit, no pious, more-lefty-than-thou seeking after the perfect candidate with the perfect voting record. I mean, c'mon, John Kerry wasn't liberal enough??? We need to close ranks and get rid of these pernicious, vicious, incompetent, crony-hiring, compassion-free, torturing, war-mongering, no-bid-contracting to your buds at Halliburton where you still own stock, pandering, racist, sexist, gay-hating, environment-destroying fuckers.
posted by theora55 at 7:52 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by theora55 at 7:52 PM on June 5, 2006
We need to close ranks and get rid of these pernicious...torturing, war-mongering...pandering, racist, sexist, gay-hating, environment-destroying fuckers.
posted by theora55
2006: Dems win congress > Impeach! Impeach! Impeach!
posted by taosbat at 8:23 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by theora55
2006: Dems win congress > Impeach! Impeach! Impeach!
posted by taosbat at 8:23 PM on June 5, 2006
PS.
If we win both houses of congress and impeach all the usual suspects succesfully, we end up with a Dem, from the Senate, as President in 2007(ish).
posted by taosbat at 8:26 PM on June 5, 2006
If we win both houses of congress and impeach all the usual suspects succesfully, we end up with a Dem, from the Senate, as President in 2007(ish).
posted by taosbat at 8:26 PM on June 5, 2006
stavrosthewonderchicken has the right to write us off. It's up to us to make good.
it's up to stavrosthewonderchicken to help, or go "back to drinking" and wait for us to solve both our and his/her problems.
posted by taosbat at 8:35 PM on June 5, 2006
it's up to stavrosthewonderchicken to help, or go "back to drinking" and wait for us to solve both our and his/her problems.
posted by taosbat at 8:35 PM on June 5, 2006
Tell you what: you guys go first.
Also: go "back to drinking"
Wha?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:44 PM on June 5, 2006
Also: go "back to drinking"
Wha?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:44 PM on June 5, 2006
Wha?
A few minutes after his roommate James accepted the call, we found out that Derek had returned to his hometown because he'd found out that day that his father had died.
We went back to drinking.
posted by taosbat at 8:48 PM on June 5, 2006
A few minutes after his roommate James accepted the call, we found out that Derek had returned to his hometown because he'd found out that day that his father had died.
We went back to drinking.
posted by taosbat at 8:48 PM on June 5, 2006
We're going to the polls. I go tomorrow and I'm offering rides throughout the day to anyone nearby who might need one.
posted by taosbat at 8:52 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by taosbat at 8:52 PM on June 5, 2006
Fuck you, stavros.
Get over it pal. He's right. As a group the citizens of the US have let this crap happen, kind of like the German citizens let the Nazis do their thing. It's not nearly that bad, yet. Just because you may not agree with the administration does not mean the group gets off, and by the way, what have you done to solve the problem?
posted by caddis at 10:09 PM on June 5, 2006
Get over it pal. He's right. As a group the citizens of the US have let this crap happen, kind of like the German citizens let the Nazis do their thing. It's not nearly that bad, yet. Just because you may not agree with the administration does not mean the group gets off, and by the way, what have you done to solve the problem?
posted by caddis at 10:09 PM on June 5, 2006
Well, 31% of us are, anyway.
posted by Richard Daly at 10:19 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by Richard Daly at 10:19 PM on June 5, 2006
Some hand-waving crap about The Gay Menace will get that number back up.
posted by Artw at 10:51 PM on June 5, 2006
posted by Artw at 10:51 PM on June 5, 2006
Ah, so it’s cool to argue about how/why it happened and how/why it is/isn’t your/their fault.
Doing something about it, not so much.
Didn’t tkchrist say something about a project? Wouldn’t that be a sort of directly in your face ‘doing something about it’ sorta thing?
Dispair is for losers.
(Well, QED - I mean it literally, not pejoratively - one must accept defeat, otherwise the contest remains)
So what’s the alternative? Accept fascism? Allow some nutjob interpreting the bible to start armageddon? Hedonism isn’t going to make that go away.
It ain’t nuthin but hard work, and it’s better than having nothing to do.
Be thankful the work and goals are so defined and the problems are well identified - all that remains is working out the method.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:27 AM on June 6, 2006
Doing something about it, not so much.
Didn’t tkchrist say something about a project? Wouldn’t that be a sort of directly in your face ‘doing something about it’ sorta thing?
Dispair is for losers.
(Well, QED - I mean it literally, not pejoratively - one must accept defeat, otherwise the contest remains)
So what’s the alternative? Accept fascism? Allow some nutjob interpreting the bible to start armageddon? Hedonism isn’t going to make that go away.
It ain’t nuthin but hard work, and it’s better than having nothing to do.
Be thankful the work and goals are so defined and the problems are well identified - all that remains is working out the method.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:27 AM on June 6, 2006
*shrugs*
“It's not like I expected a different response.”
Do tell….
“I realized my long, histrionic comment could be boiled down to something much more succinct: fuck you, America.”
posted by rougy at 4:47 PM on June 6, 2006
“It's not like I expected a different response.”
Do tell….
“I realized my long, histrionic comment could be boiled down to something much more succinct: fuck you, America.”
posted by rougy at 4:47 PM on June 6, 2006
Aye.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:50 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:50 PM on June 6, 2006
Aye. Last night I had a choice between buying a piece of electronics from a website in America, or a slightly different piece of electronics from a slightly more expensive website in the far east. Went with the latter. Made me feel more comfortable with myself.
posted by Hogshead at 4:15 AM on June 7, 2006
posted by Hogshead at 4:15 AM on June 7, 2006
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posted by Jatayu das at 4:56 AM on June 5, 2006