"50% of all Saudi fighters in Iraq come here as suicide bombers"
July 16, 2007 4:50 PM Subscribe
The "same people who attacked us on 9/11"? It may be the very latest talking point from the Administration, but it's actually true--altho it's not Al Qaeda in Iraq, but Saudis. Although Bush administration officials have frequently lashed out at Syria and Iran, accusing it of helping insurgents and militias here, the largest number of foreign fighters and suicide bombers in Iraq come from a third neighbor, Saudi Arabia ... A historical note: 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis.
Aw, they've been selling Iran as the big bully and now this. If so much wasn't at stake, it would be really amusing to watch what's happening now, the wheels truly coming off...the people who know - the intelligence community, upper eschelons, etc - have had enough, and I'm fairly sure that info like this (which previously wouldn't have been leaked or reported) will come out more and more, and be reported on much more widely.
I wonder if all the everyday Americans who so willingly bought the iRaq will actually hear this, or if they'll support BushCo all the way to Tehran.
posted by nevercalm at 5:18 PM on July 16, 2007
I wonder if all the everyday Americans who so willingly bought the iRaq will actually hear this, or if they'll support BushCo all the way to Tehran.
posted by nevercalm at 5:18 PM on July 16, 2007
I wonder if all the everyday Americans who so willingly bought the iRaq will actually hear this, or if they'll support BushCo all the way to Tehran.
I'm wondering too. This guy Bergner is everywhere, and came straight from the WH to Iraq and the TV cameras and media: ...he has been caught telling multiple falsehoods in only a matter of weeks as the press agent of Bush's surge in Iraq. . ... --WaPo (and everywhere else daily: ... Calling al-Qaeda in Iraq "the principal threat" to Iraqis, Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, the chief U.S. military spokesman, said the group was the main focus of the U.S. security campaign. ...
posted by amberglow at 5:29 PM on July 16, 2007
I'm wondering too. This guy Bergner is everywhere, and came straight from the WH to Iraq and the TV cameras and media: ...he has been caught telling multiple falsehoods in only a matter of weeks as the press agent of Bush's surge in Iraq. . ... --WaPo (and everywhere else daily: ... Calling al-Qaeda in Iraq "the principal threat" to Iraqis, Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, the chief U.S. military spokesman, said the group was the main focus of the U.S. security campaign. ...
posted by amberglow at 5:29 PM on July 16, 2007
hey you fucking liberal traitors, we've always been at war with EastAsia. Its that fucking hippie Goldstein who said we were attacked by Eurasia.
You believe a fucking traitor like Goldstein?
posted by Avenger at 5:29 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
You believe a fucking traitor like Goldstein?
posted by Avenger at 5:29 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
I've gone bald pulling my hair out over this shit! (warning: derail + pre-Bush-drove-me-insane-flame-out-photo)
posted by snsranch at 5:38 PM on July 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by snsranch at 5:38 PM on July 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Seriously, I love amberglow, (big fan), but the BushCo thing is really fuckin' with me.
posted by snsranch at 5:40 PM on July 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by snsranch at 5:40 PM on July 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
hey you fucking liberal traitors, we've always been at war with EastAsia. Its that fucking hippie Goldstein who said we were attacked by Eurasia.
You believe a fucking traitor like Goldstein?
posted by Avenger at 8:29 PM on July 16 [+] [!]
« Older Try a Little Tenderness....
This juxtaposition is pretty funny.
posted by etaoin at 5:40 PM on July 16, 2007
You believe a fucking traitor like Goldstein?
posted by Avenger at 8:29 PM on July 16 [+] [!]
« Older Try a Little Tenderness....
This juxtaposition is pretty funny.
posted by etaoin at 5:40 PM on July 16, 2007
Wow there's a fact we've never heard before.
posted by autodidact at 6:08 PM on July 16, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by autodidact at 6:08 PM on July 16, 2007 [3 favorites]
“Prelude to Terror” by Joseph J. Trento. In this book, the author sets forth information about the Safari Club, an “outsourced” intelligence network in which the Saudis financed a privatized espionage establishment that dominated American intelligence operations for the better part of a quarter of a century. Utilizing the Saudi GID and the Pakistani ISI as proxy agencies, this network ran the Iran-Contra, Iraqgate and Afghan mujahideen efforts. The most significant outgrowth of this network was the birth of al Qaeda, with all that has resulted from its conception. One of the points that Trento makes is the fact that outsourcing U.S. intelligence operations eliminated the necessary function of counterintelligence—monitoring one’s allies in order to verify their loyalty and competence. The failure to conform to this basic tenet of intelligence has haunted the U.S., and will continue to do so. It is important to note that the elder George Bush and the Reagan administrations were at the core of the Safari Club. The Safari Club was specifically created to circumvent Congressional and even Presidential oversight! (cut and paste from a program description ) not my prose.
posted by hortense at 6:16 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by hortense at 6:16 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
Historical note added because in some polls even today, ... as many as four in 10 Americans...
Great. So does this mean we're going to get a post debunking According to Jim?
posted by dhammond at 6:18 PM on July 16, 2007
Great. So does this mean we're going to get a post debunking According to Jim?
posted by dhammond at 6:18 PM on July 16, 2007
What did those 15 of 19 hijackers want -- American troops out of Saudi Arabia. What did they get? American Troops out of Saudi Arabia.
What do these 50% of foreign Jihadis want? American troops out of Iraq and the local Shiite majority out of power. What are they gonna get?
posted by notyou at 6:26 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
What do these 50% of foreign Jihadis want? American troops out of Iraq and the local Shiite majority out of power. What are they gonna get?
posted by notyou at 6:26 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
I rather doubt 4 out of 10 mefites still believe Saddam was involved with the events of 9/11..
posted by unmake at 6:32 PM on July 16, 2007
posted by unmake at 6:32 PM on July 16, 2007
I think the more interesting ones are the "wrong" responses to questions #7 and #8. I can understand that in the midst of the deluge of contradicting statements about 9/11 and the Iraq War that a certain population would say "Yes" to Saddam-9/11 question (#6). But at no point in the last few years, has it ever been reported that WMDs were found in Iraq or that Bin Laden had been captured. Yet the poll is still showing that 20% of people believe WMDs were found and 11% believe Bin Laden has been captured. So can we assume that these 11-20% of people have somehow been deluded by false statements or is it that they simply have a poor grasp of names, places, and events related to 9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq? Can it really be the case that by whatever means, somehow 1 in 10 think WMDs were found and 2 in 10 believe Bin Laden has been captured despite no media coverage proclaiming either?
posted by junesix at 6:42 PM on July 16, 2007
posted by junesix at 6:42 PM on July 16, 2007
Meanwhile, Papa Bear goes after the real enemy.
Deer. In. Headlights.
Say what you want about the wretched way Fox, and O'Reilly, try to make a point, but it certainly worked in that instance. Yeesh. Keep walking, JetBlue CEO. "No comment " and walk away...
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:43 PM on July 16, 2007
Deer. In. Headlights.
Say what you want about the wretched way Fox, and O'Reilly, try to make a point, but it certainly worked in that instance. Yeesh. Keep walking, JetBlue CEO. "No comment " and walk away...
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:43 PM on July 16, 2007
Meanwhile, Papa Bear goes after the real enemy.
The Master of Stupid couldn't even spell the CEO's name right. We truly live in an idiocracy.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:52 PM on July 16, 2007
The Master of Stupid couldn't even spell the CEO's name right. We truly live in an idiocracy.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:52 PM on July 16, 2007
Thank you Michael Moore, but the Saudi Government is different from many of its citizens. Of course, the government doesn't mind if a radical goes to Iraq to blow himself up, better in Baghdad than in Riyadh. The Saudi government is in a predicament. Of course, the Saudi Ruling Family wants to give the look of being hostile to the United States in order to gain legitimacy with a sizable number of its own people. Being allied with the United States isn't exactly a popular position in a Muslim country - no less the home of Islam. If the Saudi government is seen working with the United States, this could jeopardize the stability of the country (read link to get an idea). The same problems seem to be happening in Pakistan as well with General Musharraf.
So what are the solutions to stopping people from entering Iraq? How about border patrols? Well, US military doesn't have enough troops for Iraq's long borders. The United States has about half the force needed to secure Iraq. You need at least 300,000. There's no reason we shouldn't have more. The problem is that this war was so poorly planned out that the US can only commit half the troops they really need, but its like tying a hand behind the back. There are some pretty good reasons why the United States should not have gotten into Iraq in the first place. . .
Its a lot easier for Saudi Royal Family to crack down on the radical Islamic dissidents when the United States isn't making a mess of a neighboring Muslim country. While Pakistan has the political problems as well, that country is also hindered by geographical problems which is likely why they are unable to do much. What solutions are really out there??
posted by j-urb at 6:53 PM on July 16, 2007
So what are the solutions to stopping people from entering Iraq? How about border patrols? Well, US military doesn't have enough troops for Iraq's long borders. The United States has about half the force needed to secure Iraq. You need at least 300,000. There's no reason we shouldn't have more. The problem is that this war was so poorly planned out that the US can only commit half the troops they really need, but its like tying a hand behind the back. There are some pretty good reasons why the United States should not have gotten into Iraq in the first place. . .
Its a lot easier for Saudi Royal Family to crack down on the radical Islamic dissidents when the United States isn't making a mess of a neighboring Muslim country. While Pakistan has the political problems as well, that country is also hindered by geographical problems which is likely why they are unable to do much. What solutions are really out there??
posted by j-urb at 6:53 PM on July 16, 2007
junesix, I don't really believe that either. It was a telephone poll, you ever done one? Sometimes you can't hear them ask a question, so you just say "yes" to get it over with. And sometimes, if you're in the right(wrong) mood, you say just decide to dick with them for interrupting you in the middle of dinner.
They should have some control questions, like what colour is the sky, and how many moons does earth have. The number of "green" and "more than 3" answers would give us an idea about the amount of error in the poll.
posted by kisch mokusch at 6:56 PM on July 16, 2007
They should have some control questions, like what colour is the sky, and how many moons does earth have. The number of "green" and "more than 3" answers would give us an idea about the amount of error in the poll.
posted by kisch mokusch at 6:56 PM on July 16, 2007
But at no point in the last few years, has it ever been reported that WMDs were found in Iraq or that Bin Laden had been captured.
Clearly, you don't pay much attention to Fox News or Drudge. They repeatedly said that WMDs had been found.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:15 PM on July 16, 2007
Clearly, you don't pay much attention to Fox News or Drudge. They repeatedly said that WMDs had been found.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:15 PM on July 16, 2007
....for strangling an infant to death.
Not that I'm a big fan of beheading or anything, but there are better examples of their batshitinsanity.
posted by dhammond at 7:17 PM on July 16, 2007
Not that I'm a big fan of beheading or anything, but there are better examples of their batshitinsanity.
posted by dhammond at 7:17 PM on July 16, 2007
Didja hear? Al Qaeda is baking Iraqi children and serving them to their parents! In other news, Iraqi soldiers threw babies out of incubators, and Huns kill women and children.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:25 PM on July 16, 2007
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:25 PM on July 16, 2007
"Al Qaeda is baking Iraqi children and serving them to their parents! ... The official reported that on a couple of occasions in Baqubah, al Qaeda invited to lunch families they wanted to convert to their way of thinking. In each instance, the family had a boy, he said, who was about 11 years old. As LT David Wallach interpreted the man’s words, I saw Wallach go blank and silent. He stopped interpreting for a moment. I asked Wallach, “What did he say?” Wallach said that at these luncheons, the families were sat down to eat. And then their boy was brought in with his mouth stuffed. The boy had been baked. Al Qaeda served the boy to his family."
You have got to be fucking kidding me.
posted by Avenger at 7:35 PM on July 16, 2007
You have got to be fucking kidding me.
posted by Avenger at 7:35 PM on July 16, 2007
It's "true"!
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:37 PM on July 16, 2007
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:37 PM on July 16, 2007
That link is insane homunculus. So, when big bad terra-hists behead people, it's barbarism, but when the Saudis do it it's law and order?
dhammond, the article states she wasn't allowed to have a lawyer. So maybe she did it, but maybe she didn't.
But there have been a few, far too few, Americans trying to make the point that while it wasn't quite a Saudi-backed plot that led to 9/11, it couldn't have happened without the twin forces of the Saudi leadership casting a blind-eye to their home-grown jihadis and a Bush administration that has long-standing economic ties with the House of Saud (and a larger addiction to their oil, which was certainly in place before Bush).
Honestly, this isn't at all surprising. Sad, tragic, and pathetic, but not surprising.
posted by bardic at 7:42 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
dhammond, the article states she wasn't allowed to have a lawyer. So maybe she did it, but maybe she didn't.
But there have been a few, far too few, Americans trying to make the point that while it wasn't quite a Saudi-backed plot that led to 9/11, it couldn't have happened without the twin forces of the Saudi leadership casting a blind-eye to their home-grown jihadis and a Bush administration that has long-standing economic ties with the House of Saud (and a larger addiction to their oil, which was certainly in place before Bush).
Honestly, this isn't at all surprising. Sad, tragic, and pathetic, but not surprising.
posted by bardic at 7:42 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
The article states she wasn't allowed to have a lawyer.
Sounds like they are following our lead.
posted by Mr_Zero at 8:18 PM on July 16, 2007
Sounds like they are following our lead.
posted by Mr_Zero at 8:18 PM on July 16, 2007
Meanwhile, Papa Bear goes after the real enemy.
Deer. In. Headlights.
Say what you want about the wretched way Fox, and O'Reilly, try to make a point, but it certainly worked in that instance. Yeesh. Keep walking, JetBlue CEO. "No comment " and walk away...
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:43 PM on July 16 [+] [!]
Maybe FOX News will go after their own sponsors next...
posted by juiceCake at 8:58 PM on July 16, 2007
Deer. In. Headlights.
Say what you want about the wretched way Fox, and O'Reilly, try to make a point, but it certainly worked in that instance. Yeesh. Keep walking, JetBlue CEO. "No comment " and walk away...
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:43 PM on July 16 [+] [!]
Maybe FOX News will go after their own sponsors next...
posted by juiceCake at 8:58 PM on July 16, 2007
So I presume you can get some sort of halal, non-alcoholic chianti, right?
posted by pompomtom at 9:43 PM on July 16, 2007
posted by pompomtom at 9:43 PM on July 16, 2007
So let's just add Saudi Arabia to the list of Middle Eastern places that should be nuked to glass and paved over. And no, I'm not entirely kidding: from the Mediterranean to the Hindu Kush, from the Aral Sea to the Indian Ocean, make one big parking lot.
posted by davy at 9:52 PM on July 16, 2007
posted by davy at 9:52 PM on July 16, 2007
And no, I'm not entirely kidding: from the Mediterranean to the Hindu Kush, from the Aral Sea to the Indian Ocean, make one big parking lot.
Does that include all those Iraqis who helped us and are now being slaughtered? And the refugees who've been forced into prostitution in Syria? Do they become part of your (partially kidding) parking lot too?
posted by homunculus at 11:12 PM on July 16, 2007
Does that include all those Iraqis who helped us and are now being slaughtered? And the refugees who've been forced into prostitution in Syria? Do they become part of your (partially kidding) parking lot too?
posted by homunculus at 11:12 PM on July 16, 2007
So let's just add Saudi Arabia to the list of Middle Eastern places that should be nuked to glass and paved over.
First, the Bush family has long-standing ties to the House of Saud. Ain't gonna happen.
Second, the only thing that would get Bush impeached within a week would be gas prices shooing up to eight or nine dollars a gallon domestically.
I mean, I understand the hyperbole, but it's not like Saudi Arabia hasn't been doing this shit for decades, and the US has let them get away with it for purely economic reasons.
Hence, I have to laugh every time someone mentions the Bush Doctrine (we go after countries that indirectly support terrorism). Because it's a big fucking lie.
posted by bardic at 11:35 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
First, the Bush family has long-standing ties to the House of Saud. Ain't gonna happen.
Second, the only thing that would get Bush impeached within a week would be gas prices shooing up to eight or nine dollars a gallon domestically.
I mean, I understand the hyperbole, but it's not like Saudi Arabia hasn't been doing this shit for decades, and the US has let them get away with it for purely economic reasons.
Hence, I have to laugh every time someone mentions the Bush Doctrine (we go after countries that indirectly support terrorism). Because it's a big fucking lie.
posted by bardic at 11:35 PM on July 16, 2007 [2 favorites]
I think Davy's on to something. Why waste time worrying about which foreigners to hate the most? It takes thought, and perhaps even some knowledge of geography and history. If you just hated all foreigners, and perhaps even compatriots who look different, all that effort could be channeled better into working longer hours, and buying more stuff.
posted by pompomtom at 11:35 PM on July 16, 2007
posted by pompomtom at 11:35 PM on July 16, 2007
Is that your "final answer", davy?
Anyhoo, part of the reason I'm sensitive to neocon/AIPAC types doing their propagandizing crap here and elsewhere is it's going to take an unknown amount of diplomacy and luck, for the lack of a better word, to avoid getting locked into a future where things start getting glassed. And joking about it actually increases the slope.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 11:41 PM on July 16, 2007
Anyhoo, part of the reason I'm sensitive to neocon/AIPAC types doing their propagandizing crap here and elsewhere is it's going to take an unknown amount of diplomacy and luck, for the lack of a better word, to avoid getting locked into a future where things start getting glassed. And joking about it actually increases the slope.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 11:41 PM on July 16, 2007
So can we assume that these 11-20% of people have somehow been deluded by false statements or is it that they simply have a poor grasp of names, places, and events related to 9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq?
Some of them were ready to believe anything the Republicans told them, and the Republicans often told everyone the opposite of the truth. They can picture shiny metal tubes found in the sand and hear "weapons of mass destruction" in a serious voice. You can't tell them now that those shiny metal tubes full of death didn't exist.
However, I suspect that a large proportion of the people who get such questions wrong are simply lying in support of the cause.
In America, there is strong incentive for lying in answers to public opinion polls. The headlines often are not about what is true, but about what many people say is true. "Most Americans .... " is considered a perfectly good excuse for manufacturing a front page story. Most people think Bush should be impeached, etc. Not a big story about what has happened and is happening right now, but about what a lot of average, uninformed, frequently quite dumb people stopped on the sidewalk or phoned during dinner said they believe when responding to some twit reporter's questions.
So when a survey asks them to admit something that they cannot admit without letting down the team (that there were no WMDs, for example), Republican boosters have to lie to anyone who asks, even to an anonymous survey taker.
posted by pracowity at 3:01 AM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]
Some of them were ready to believe anything the Republicans told them, and the Republicans often told everyone the opposite of the truth. They can picture shiny metal tubes found in the sand and hear "weapons of mass destruction" in a serious voice. You can't tell them now that those shiny metal tubes full of death didn't exist.
However, I suspect that a large proportion of the people who get such questions wrong are simply lying in support of the cause.
In America, there is strong incentive for lying in answers to public opinion polls. The headlines often are not about what is true, but about what many people say is true. "Most Americans .... " is considered a perfectly good excuse for manufacturing a front page story. Most people think Bush should be impeached, etc. Not a big story about what has happened and is happening right now, but about what a lot of average, uninformed, frequently quite dumb people stopped on the sidewalk or phoned during dinner said they believe when responding to some twit reporter's questions.
So when a survey asks them to admit something that they cannot admit without letting down the team (that there were no WMDs, for example), Republican boosters have to lie to anyone who asks, even to an anonymous survey taker.
posted by pracowity at 3:01 AM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]
Zombie Mohammed Atta is attacking our troops in Iraq?
This is much worse than I previously thought.
posted by psmealey at 6:06 AM on July 17, 2007
This is much worse than I previously thought.
posted by psmealey at 6:06 AM on July 17, 2007
I can understand answering yes to the "Were WMDs found?" question, but Bin Laden Captured?
We totally captured Saddam Bin Laden! He was hiding in a hole, remember?
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:11 AM on July 17, 2007
We totally captured Saddam Bin Laden! He was hiding in a hole, remember?
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:11 AM on July 17, 2007
Just this morning: Terror Threat Against U.S. Said Serious -- The terrorist network Al-Qaida will likely leverage its contacts and capabilities in Iraq to mount an attack on U.S. soil, according to a new National Intelligence Estimate on threats to the United States. ...
'Of note,' the analysts said, 'we assess that al-Qaida will probably seek to leverage the contacts and capabilities of al-Qaida in Iraq (AQI), its most visible and capable affiliate and the only one known to have expressed a desire to attack the homeland.' ...
posted by amberglow at 8:19 AM on July 17, 2007
'Of note,' the analysts said, 'we assess that al-Qaida will probably seek to leverage the contacts and capabilities of al-Qaida in Iraq (AQI), its most visible and capable affiliate and the only one known to have expressed a desire to attack the homeland.' ...
posted by amberglow at 8:19 AM on July 17, 2007
By focusing on alleged Iranian and Syrian infiltration in Iraq, the US has been tacitly supporting and encouraging the Saudis to send militants across the border. US policy in the region has come full circle: the US is back to supporting the Wahhabi side of the Sunni-Shi'a divide in the Fertile Crescent, continuing the successful policy of dual containment whereby both Saddam and Khomeini were armed by the US (once the Iranians unexpectedly got the upper hand because of the failure of the Iraq war, they now must be cut down to size). Links between the Saudi govt and Al-Qaeda are well-known, and so too were they between the US and Al-Qaeda. In all likelihood they have been resuscitated, which is why we have not seen an attack on US soil (rather than the administration's claim that they have thwarted numerous attacks) in some time.
posted by Azaadistani at 8:34 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Azaadistani at 8:34 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
Let's not forget Studio 51, that E.T. disco in the U.S. desert!
posted by davy at 8:56 AM on July 17, 2007
posted by davy at 8:56 AM on July 17, 2007
Oh, and among my other controiversial opinions, maybe the messed-up parts of Africa (DR Congo, Darfur, etc.) should be liberated by African-American U.S. troops. However fucked up Detroit might be I'll bet Kivu is worse.
posted by davy at 9:27 AM on July 17, 2007
posted by davy at 9:27 AM on July 17, 2007
amberglow that very news item reminded me of this thread and someone's comment about "lather rinse repeat" of warnings every time there's something else to be drowned out in the media or was that another thread?
posted by infini at 10:00 AM on July 17, 2007
posted by infini at 10:00 AM on July 17, 2007
There have been a few threads about it--Ridge actually admitted doing it for political reasons and pressure: Tom Ridge Confirms That Terror Threat Warnings Were Used For Political Purposes
The problem is that this latest shit is worded like what they got in Aug 01 and completely ignored ("All right. You've covered your ass, now.")--if it's real this time at all, that is.
Since they're politicized everything, and lied to us so much, we can't even know what's real and what's just another distraction.
posted by amberglow at 10:14 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
The problem is that this latest shit is worded like what they got in Aug 01 and completely ignored ("All right. You've covered your ass, now.")--if it's real this time at all, that is.
Since they're politicized everything, and lied to us so much, we can't even know what's real and what's just another distraction.
posted by amberglow at 10:14 AM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
Links between the Saudi govt and Al-Qaeda are well-known, and so too were they between the US and Al-Qaeda. In all likelihood they have been resuscitated, which is why we have not seen an attack on US soil (rather than the administration's claim that they have thwarted numerous attacks) in some time.
And we've done everything Bin Ladin (and the Saudis too) wanted us to do--we took our troops out of Saudi Arabia, we got bogged down in the region, and are bankrupting ourselves and helping them by creating enemies daily, and have prevented Iraqi oil from coming to market, and are helping eliminate those like Saddam that Bin Ladin and the Saudis hated anyway.
And there's more and more talk about how the administration is definitely going to attack Iran (which is also what both the Saudis and Bin Ladin would love to see happen). I worry that they might use the demands for a troop withdrawal to march right into Iran. At this point the administration has absolutely nothing to lose and they don't care about the GOP's chances in 08 when there's trillions in oil to lock down in both Iraq and Iran.
posted by amberglow at 10:22 AM on July 17, 2007
And we've done everything Bin Ladin (and the Saudis too) wanted us to do--we took our troops out of Saudi Arabia, we got bogged down in the region, and are bankrupting ourselves and helping them by creating enemies daily, and have prevented Iraqi oil from coming to market, and are helping eliminate those like Saddam that Bin Ladin and the Saudis hated anyway.
And there's more and more talk about how the administration is definitely going to attack Iran (which is also what both the Saudis and Bin Ladin would love to see happen). I worry that they might use the demands for a troop withdrawal to march right into Iran. At this point the administration has absolutely nothing to lose and they don't care about the GOP's chances in 08 when there's trillions in oil to lock down in both Iraq and Iran.
posted by amberglow at 10:22 AM on July 17, 2007
Saudis are not automatically tracked in the National Security Entry-Exit Record System (NSEERS) as Iranians, Syrians, Iraqis, Sudanese and Lybians are.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:23 AM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by Pollomacho at 10:23 AM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]
Of course they've politicized everything, that's what politicians do; they always have. For the "Department of Homeland Security" to exist a sense of insecurity must be maintained or else thousands of spooks, cops and paperworkers -- and zillions of lobbyists and contractors -- would become unemployed, and we can't have such massive unemployment can we! Not to mention all the fear-mongering politicians who'd fail to get (re-)elected if the War On Terror ever quit: military-industrial complex engineers can always learn to engineer something else, but politicking is all a politician can do.
posted by davy at 10:53 AM on July 17, 2007
posted by davy at 10:53 AM on July 17, 2007
So Pollomacho, maybe those fools that rant about the U.S. being run by ZOG are off base, maybe we'e a Saudi colony? Somewhat less paranoiacly, suppose the Iraqi insurgency is a plot by the Saud family and their closest friends to get young Arabian men to blow themselves up instead of competing for women.
posted by davy at 11:02 AM on July 17, 2007
posted by davy at 11:02 AM on July 17, 2007
thanks for the link as well, amberglow. You're right of course, about reaching inundation point with respect to "terror" and the marketing of "fear" - one wonders if there is a study correlating the rise of flashbacks, paranoia, insomnia and hypervigilance among those who have had acute [short term] PTSD or those that live with chronic Post traumatic stress disorder. Particularly would like to see it correlate to victims of domestic abuse who have lived with abusive alcoholics ranting and raving with no basis in reality and a utter lack of self preservation when they're in the throes of one of their rages?
I myself have noted a distinct difference in my mental health since early May when I finally had to leave the country in order to discern whether I was going crazy internally or was it the external ambience causing my distress. This when I've had no symptoms or flashbacks for over 5 years and was diagnosed with "acute". While imho is only one datapoint, the drastic improvement in the past three months in my wellbeing is undeniable and now I do wonder whether there's a tad more to what's wrong with the edicts, issues and other aspects of the administration than just plain silliness?
This is extremely personal TMI regarding myself but the absolute lack of coherence and the dissonance regarding "reality 1" and "reality 2" are seeming amazingly similar, particularly when sitting a very large ocean away on a tropical island. The whole libby pardon thing seems surreal and the weirdest part of it is that nobody speaks up in the media or points out or at least if they do then it doesn't seem to matter at all. It is outside the delusion circles.
Now they are talking about war with Iran, is it any wonder that Davy comments on the glassing over of the whole area?
I've thought of late myself once Indian doctors and engineers were apprehended and splashed around the media that its not just the "middle" east or "ayrabs" or whatever, its blinking everybody.
I ask once more, where is the voice of ahimsa, non violence and peace?
posted by infini at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2007
I myself have noted a distinct difference in my mental health since early May when I finally had to leave the country in order to discern whether I was going crazy internally or was it the external ambience causing my distress. This when I've had no symptoms or flashbacks for over 5 years and was diagnosed with "acute". While imho is only one datapoint, the drastic improvement in the past three months in my wellbeing is undeniable and now I do wonder whether there's a tad more to what's wrong with the edicts, issues and other aspects of the administration than just plain silliness?
This is extremely personal TMI regarding myself but the absolute lack of coherence and the dissonance regarding "reality 1" and "reality 2" are seeming amazingly similar, particularly when sitting a very large ocean away on a tropical island. The whole libby pardon thing seems surreal and the weirdest part of it is that nobody speaks up in the media or points out or at least if they do then it doesn't seem to matter at all. It is outside the delusion circles.
Now they are talking about war with Iran, is it any wonder that Davy comments on the glassing over of the whole area?
I've thought of late myself once Indian doctors and engineers were apprehended and splashed around the media that its not just the "middle" east or "ayrabs" or whatever, its blinking everybody.
I ask once more, where is the voice of ahimsa, non violence and peace?
posted by infini at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2007
Al-Qaida’s like the UP now, with all these little descrete branches all over. Neat!
And indeed, the cognitive dissonance in the U.S. government is schizophrenic.
On that note - can I just say I absolutely hate the term “Homeland.” Hate. I’m talking hate here, not the mere disgust for para-corporate babble like “pro-active” and such. It just smacks of nazism.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:05 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
And indeed, the cognitive dissonance in the U.S. government is schizophrenic.
On that note - can I just say I absolutely hate the term “Homeland.” Hate. I’m talking hate here, not the mere disgust for para-corporate babble like “pro-active” and such. It just smacks of nazism.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:05 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
NIE: Pakistan 2007 is Afghanistan 2001
The NIE and Iraq: What's Missing from this Picture?
posted by homunculus at 1:22 PM on July 17, 2007
The NIE and Iraq: What's Missing from this Picture?
posted by homunculus at 1:22 PM on July 17, 2007
The NIE and Iraq: What's Missing from this Picture?
posted by homunculus
nepal, bangladesh, burma, indochina, thailand, malaysia, singapore, indonesia, the phillipines, oops australia, wait boys we've gone too far
posted by infini at 1:44 PM on July 17, 2007
posted by homunculus
nepal, bangladesh, burma, indochina, thailand, malaysia, singapore, indonesia, the phillipines, oops australia, wait boys we've gone too far
posted by infini at 1:44 PM on July 17, 2007
Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside the United States...Again
Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside the United States II: Electric Booglaloo
posted by kirkaracha at 2:35 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside the United States II: Electric Booglaloo
posted by kirkaracha at 2:35 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
junesix, I don't really believe that either. It was a telephone poll, you ever done one? Sometimes you can't hear them ask a question, so you just say "yes" to get it over with. And sometimes, if you're in the right(wrong) mood, you say just decide to dick with them for interrupting you in the middle of dinner.
posted by kisch mokusch at 9:56 PM on July 16
I briefly did political polls for a living. More than half of the people I called admitted to me during the call that they were lying, but there was nowhere on the electronic form to note, "Respondent is lying" so that data went unrecorded.
Now, this was in Canada, but I think USians are at least as bloody-minded as Canadians, so there must be similar problems with political polls here.
On the other hand, 9% of Americans can't point to the Pacific Ocean on an unmarked map. Anybody who has worked in retail can tell you that at least 1 in 10 people are just plain stupid.
posted by joannemerriam at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2007
posted by kisch mokusch at 9:56 PM on July 16
I briefly did political polls for a living. More than half of the people I called admitted to me during the call that they were lying, but there was nowhere on the electronic form to note, "Respondent is lying" so that data went unrecorded.
Now, this was in Canada, but I think USians are at least as bloody-minded as Canadians, so there must be similar problems with political polls here.
On the other hand, 9% of Americans can't point to the Pacific Ocean on an unmarked map. Anybody who has worked in retail can tell you that at least 1 in 10 people are just plain stupid.
posted by joannemerriam at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2007
the absolute lack of coherence and the dissonance regarding "reality 1" and "reality 2" are seeming amazingly similar, particularly when sitting a very large ocean away on a tropical island. The whole libby pardon thing seems surreal and the weirdest part of it is that nobody speaks up in the media or points out or at least if they do then it doesn't seem to matter at all. It is outside the delusion circles.
It's infuriating, and it's completely because the media has stopped doing its job entirely and are willing if not totally eager participants in lying to us continually, and rarely factchecking anything at all. This LA Times thing has not been picked up by other big papers or by tv at all--and it's not like they don't know this too. It's just another inconvenient truth, i guess.
posted by amberglow at 4:26 PM on July 17, 2007
It's infuriating, and it's completely because the media has stopped doing its job entirely and are willing if not totally eager participants in lying to us continually, and rarely factchecking anything at all. This LA Times thing has not been picked up by other big papers or by tv at all--and it's not like they don't know this too. It's just another inconvenient truth, i guess.
posted by amberglow at 4:26 PM on July 17, 2007
Smedleyman said: "I absolutely hate the term `Homeland.' Hate...It just smacks of nazism."
It does. And what gets me is that prior to 2001 no Americans except for a handful of traitorous neo-Nazi nutballs called this place "Homeland," "Fatherland" or "Motherland": when we wanted to speak of our country we called it that, "our country," and the political adjective was "National." I guess it's just that the term "National Security" was already used by an extant Agency and whatever dingbat got to name the new (and pro-actively redundant) Department couldn't find a good thesaurus. Or maybe this use of "Homeland" is directly Nazi-inspired, yet one that avoids the sexist connotations of "Fatherland" and "Motherland"? (There can be such a thing as a non-sexist Nazi, right?)
posted by davy at 7:20 PM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]
It does. And what gets me is that prior to 2001 no Americans except for a handful of traitorous neo-Nazi nutballs called this place "Homeland," "Fatherland" or "Motherland": when we wanted to speak of our country we called it that, "our country," and the political adjective was "National." I guess it's just that the term "National Security" was already used by an extant Agency and whatever dingbat got to name the new (and pro-actively redundant) Department couldn't find a good thesaurus. Or maybe this use of "Homeland" is directly Nazi-inspired, yet one that avoids the sexist connotations of "Fatherland" and "Motherland"? (There can be such a thing as a non-sexist Nazi, right?)
posted by davy at 7:20 PM on July 17, 2007 [2 favorites]
homunculous: "The NIE and Iraq: What's Missing from this Picture?"
infini: "nepal, bangladesh, burma, indochina, thailand, malaysia, singapore, indonesia, the phillipines, oops australia, wait boys we've gone too far"
Sounds like the old Domino theory from when I was a kid. But slightly different, in a way I can't quite put my finger on....
posted by davy at 7:41 PM on July 17, 2007
infini: "nepal, bangladesh, burma, indochina, thailand, malaysia, singapore, indonesia, the phillipines, oops australia, wait boys we've gone too far"
Sounds like the old Domino theory from when I was a kid. But slightly different, in a way I can't quite put my finger on....
posted by davy at 7:41 PM on July 17, 2007
"homeland translates well"
So does 'Vaterland' then. For that matter so does 'patrie,' but I don't think the French sex their country as hard as the Aryans do.
Seriously, "homeland" translates well into what? And since when is translating well into a foreign language necessary for naming a U.S. domestic gestapo-type agency?
posted by davy at 7:52 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
So does 'Vaterland' then. For that matter so does 'patrie,' but I don't think the French sex their country as hard as the Aryans do.
Seriously, "homeland" translates well into what? And since when is translating well into a foreign language necessary for naming a U.S. domestic gestapo-type agency?
posted by davy at 7:52 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
Mission accomplished!
posted by SisterHavana at 8:17 PM on July 17, 2007
posted by SisterHavana at 8:17 PM on July 17, 2007
Davy, its just like Poppy said, New world Order, everyone has a homeland in the NWO. I guess we just have to get used to it.
posted by hortense at 9:52 PM on July 17, 2007
posted by hortense at 9:52 PM on July 17, 2007
davy, yes! domino theory, different from the red menace, now its the brown menace? or the cheap labour menace?
posted by infini at 10:26 PM on July 17, 2007
posted by infini at 10:26 PM on July 17, 2007
It's infuriating, and it's completely because the media has stopped doing its job entirely and are willing if not totally eager participants in lying to us continually, and rarely factchecking anything at all. This LA Times thing has not been picked up by other big papers or by tv at all--and it's not like they don't know this too. It's just another inconvenient truth, i guess.
posted by amberglow at 4:26 PM on July 17
More than that, it takes having stepped out to realize just how bad it looks from the outside. Once you're in the media cocoon - regardless of the metafilters, websites and blogs you might read - the MSM and general ambience are so all pervasive, its a shock to come out and see how so many in the world see it all, that's when the dissonance really strikes you. Its like 99.999997% are talking about carbon emissions, businesses are evaluating their footprint, changing their processes and procedures to become more sustainable, others are tightening belts or talking about things that just haven't made it across the oceans and then there's all that.
And the dissonance isn't just about the news, its management strategy articles, research papers and white papers, "science" reports, magazine articles which are all on a different planet than the rest of world. Until the last 3 or 4 weeks when suddenly online media has suddenly been "greenwashed" becuase the disparities were getting a little too obvious.
Its jurying an global competition on design to create awareness of climate change and the environment and the difference in sophistication and knowledge on the topic and the quality of entries from NA and the rest of the world are glaring in their ignorance and parochialism.
Thomas Friedman said the world is flat now and thus it has changed. Scoble and Israel talk about Naked Conversations and corporate blogging and the difference it will make. The original, The Cluetrain Manifesto claimed that markets were now conversations and word of mouth would out the brands that didn't fulfill their MSM promises.
the schizophrenia, the dissonance, the lying et al that we all go on and on and on about here on the blue are a direct result of hte above paragraph, that is why it seems this way to us, whereas for those who have not yet figured web 2.0 and social media or even understanding that the world is just a blink of an electron away are still using old school marketing and communications techniques.
What we're seeing is the chasm and its not going to get narrower anytime soon. Its the user/creators of web 2.0 content vs. the passive consumers of mass edutainment. That's what giving the sense of dissonance, there probably isn't one for those who don't scour the web looking for alternate viewpoints, so where does one go from here?
do we continue bitching on the blue? I mean as a generation of earth dwellers.
posted by infini at 10:59 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by amberglow at 4:26 PM on July 17
More than that, it takes having stepped out to realize just how bad it looks from the outside. Once you're in the media cocoon - regardless of the metafilters, websites and blogs you might read - the MSM and general ambience are so all pervasive, its a shock to come out and see how so many in the world see it all, that's when the dissonance really strikes you. Its like 99.999997% are talking about carbon emissions, businesses are evaluating their footprint, changing their processes and procedures to become more sustainable, others are tightening belts or talking about things that just haven't made it across the oceans and then there's all that.
And the dissonance isn't just about the news, its management strategy articles, research papers and white papers, "science" reports, magazine articles which are all on a different planet than the rest of world. Until the last 3 or 4 weeks when suddenly online media has suddenly been "greenwashed" becuase the disparities were getting a little too obvious.
Its jurying an global competition on design to create awareness of climate change and the environment and the difference in sophistication and knowledge on the topic and the quality of entries from NA and the rest of the world are glaring in their ignorance and parochialism.
Thomas Friedman said the world is flat now and thus it has changed. Scoble and Israel talk about Naked Conversations and corporate blogging and the difference it will make. The original, The Cluetrain Manifesto claimed that markets were now conversations and word of mouth would out the brands that didn't fulfill their MSM promises.
the schizophrenia, the dissonance, the lying et al that we all go on and on and on about here on the blue are a direct result of hte above paragraph, that is why it seems this way to us, whereas for those who have not yet figured web 2.0 and social media or even understanding that the world is just a blink of an electron away are still using old school marketing and communications techniques.
What we're seeing is the chasm and its not going to get narrower anytime soon. Its the user/creators of web 2.0 content vs. the passive consumers of mass edutainment. That's what giving the sense of dissonance, there probably isn't one for those who don't scour the web looking for alternate viewpoints, so where does one go from here?
do we continue bitching on the blue? I mean as a generation of earth dwellers.
posted by infini at 10:59 PM on July 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think all we can do is expose the lies and spin.
Curious Timing--Hot on the heels of yesterday's release of the declassified NIE on Al Qaeda, the U.S. military in Baghdad announced today that it has captured a top leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq:
...
First off, the capture took place two weeks ago but was not announced until today. Hmmm, have we seen that before? And the detainee just happened to confess to a greater level of coordination between AQ in Iraq and Osama bin Laden's global AQ, right in line with the official White House line that AQ in Iraq and AQ are one and the same. ...
posted by amberglow at 8:48 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Curious Timing--Hot on the heels of yesterday's release of the declassified NIE on Al Qaeda, the U.S. military in Baghdad announced today that it has captured a top leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq:
...
First off, the capture took place two weeks ago but was not announced until today. Hmmm, have we seen that before? And the detainee just happened to confess to a greater level of coordination between AQ in Iraq and Osama bin Laden's global AQ, right in line with the official White House line that AQ in Iraq and AQ are one and the same. ...
posted by amberglow at 8:48 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
infini, this was refreshing--people are awake now and aware, i think, and way out in front of both the media and Congress. -- Heh. ’I’m a grandmother, do I look like a terrorist?’ A sample: ...
posted by amberglow at 9:01 AM on July 18, 2007
posted by amberglow at 9:01 AM on July 18, 2007
-- Heh. ’I’m a grandmother, do I look like a terrorist?’ A sample: ...
posted by amberglow
thanks for the link amberglow. would you believe that my longish comments on this thread are the first time I've felt comfortable enough to express an opinion on this subject matter anywhere online? that I've not been afraid of a midnight knock on my door just because something I may have said somewhere might be misconstrued and I happen to have south asian ancestry? that in real life i've been deeply questioned about the work that led to a keynote speech at a significant conference simply because what I strongly believe in [empowering the illiterate and the poor] could possibly be something else. that every word I write or blog or breathe I think twice about. that belief in karma is enough to be looked at funny. that beliefs and faiths and the way people live are suddenly deemed illegal? how icky to reach a point in this world to think "thank god I'm hindu" when I grew up in a multicultural nation with four major religious holidays where people show awareness of and respect for each other's differing belief systems?
that right now I am still not wholly certain and comfortable about going "home" to pack my stuff and close my apartment?
that I edited and re-edited this comment, just in case
heh. listen to me derail! ... thanks for reading.
posted by infini at 10:30 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by amberglow
thanks for the link amberglow. would you believe that my longish comments on this thread are the first time I've felt comfortable enough to express an opinion on this subject matter anywhere online? that I've not been afraid of a midnight knock on my door just because something I may have said somewhere might be misconstrued and I happen to have south asian ancestry? that in real life i've been deeply questioned about the work that led to a keynote speech at a significant conference simply because what I strongly believe in [empowering the illiterate and the poor] could possibly be something else. that every word I write or blog or breathe I think twice about. that belief in karma is enough to be looked at funny. that beliefs and faiths and the way people live are suddenly deemed illegal? how icky to reach a point in this world to think "thank god I'm hindu" when I grew up in a multicultural nation with four major religious holidays where people show awareness of and respect for each other's differing belief systems?
that right now I am still not wholly certain and comfortable about going "home" to pack my stuff and close my apartment?
that I edited and re-edited this comment, just in case
heh. listen to me derail! ... thanks for reading.
posted by infini at 10:30 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
amberglow reading your link it seems to me as though it *is* happening that people are waking up but while you say they are in front of "media and congress" I'd say that prolly not MSM else this kind of thing would have been given bigger and wider coverage no? Or am I scanning the wrong MSM?
As for media dissonance outside, an excellent example is today's FPP on the Independent article
posted by infini at 10:39 AM on July 18, 2007
As for media dissonance outside, an excellent example is today's FPP on the Independent article
posted by infini at 10:39 AM on July 18, 2007
On that note - can I just say I absolutely hate the term “Homeland.” Hate. I’m talking hate here, not the mere disgust for para-corporate babble like “pro-active” and such. It just smacks of nazism.
There's No Such Thing as the Homeland
posted by homunculus at 1:42 PM on July 18, 2007
There's No Such Thing as the Homeland
posted by homunculus at 1:42 PM on July 18, 2007
It's that the people are more informed and more disgusted than some realize, and that the Congress and media are not covering it and are way way behind the public, infini.
Things like that link have been popping up all over the country everywhere elected officials appear, but you don't see it on the news. It's only thru online reports, mostly, but i think that's starting to change too--years and years too late.
We all have reasons to be afraid, infini--things suck entirely and we've lost rights and protections. I won't be comfortable until this administration is gone.
posted by amberglow at 1:56 PM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Things like that link have been popping up all over the country everywhere elected officials appear, but you don't see it on the news. It's only thru online reports, mostly, but i think that's starting to change too--years and years too late.
We all have reasons to be afraid, infini--things suck entirely and we've lost rights and protections. I won't be comfortable until this administration is gone.
posted by amberglow at 1:56 PM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
check this out: For more than a year, the leader of one the most notorious insurgent groups in Iraq was said to be a mysterious Iraqi called Abu Omar al-Baghdadi.
As the titular head of the Islamic State in Iraq, Mr. Baghdadi issued incendiary pronouncements. Despite claims by an Iraqi Interior Ministry official in May that Mr. Baghdadi had been killed, he appeared to have persevered unscathed.
On Wednesday, the chief United States military spokesman here, Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, provided a new explanation for Mr. Baghdadi’s ability to escape attack: he never existed. ...
posted by amberglow at 9:27 AM on July 19, 2007
As the titular head of the Islamic State in Iraq, Mr. Baghdadi issued incendiary pronouncements. Despite claims by an Iraqi Interior Ministry official in May that Mr. Baghdadi had been killed, he appeared to have persevered unscathed.
On Wednesday, the chief United States military spokesman here, Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, provided a new explanation for Mr. Baghdadi’s ability to escape attack: he never existed. ...
posted by amberglow at 9:27 AM on July 19, 2007
oh good one! I wish I could think of a smarter snarky humourous response to this right now but its a quarter past 4am and nothing beats the headline of the article! took me a minute to decipher it
posted by infini at 1:29 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by infini at 1:29 PM on July 19, 2007
Al Qaeda widespread in Pakistan: Anti-terrorism officials and experts say a U.S. report incorrectly focuses on the group's strength in border areas.
posted by homunculus at 3:32 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by homunculus at 3:32 PM on July 20, 2007
The NIEs have always been fixed...they say this new one is less fixed than usual because the problems are so widespread and blatant and not believably coverupable anymore.
posted by amberglow at 1:09 PM on July 21, 2007
posted by amberglow at 1:09 PM on July 21, 2007
Why Is the White House Pretending That Saudi Insurgents in Iraq Are Iranian?
posted by amberglow at 9:57 AM on July 22, 2007
posted by amberglow at 9:57 AM on July 22, 2007
amberglow, scroll down past hte french to read the whole article. will open your eyes.
posted by infini at 10:16 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 10:16 AM on July 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
very interesting--he's right. (and i wish the EU would step up now)
posted by amberglow at 1:34 PM on July 22, 2007
posted by amberglow at 1:34 PM on July 22, 2007
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posted by amberglow at 4:53 PM on July 16, 2007