Michael Vick in the dog house
July 19, 2007 5:07 PM Subscribe
NFL Superstar implicated in dog fighting ring, has sponsorship suspended. Meet NFL quarterback, Michael Vick. Virginia Tech Alum, Heisman Trophy candidate, Vick has been indicted for taking part in a dog fighting ring. In defense of public relations (if not his employee), here is what his boss had to say on the matter at hand.
What is dog fighting? Why is it bad? Here is an FAQ on What dog fighting from the Humane Society of the US. Also, here's if you need to be further dissuaded, here is an ugly page on the blood sport, with some gruesome pics.
What is dog fighting? Why is it bad? Here is an FAQ on What dog fighting from the Humane Society of the US. Also, here's if you need to be further dissuaded, here is an ugly page on the blood sport, with some gruesome pics.
"Taking part" kinda understates it -- Bad Newz Kennels, which is at the center of the ring and is where combatant pooches were bred and trained and housed and God knows what else, sits on property Vick owns.
But you know, the judicial system must be allowed to run its course. Innocent until proven guilty.
Either way: Ugh.
posted by notyou at 5:22 PM on July 19, 2007
But you know, the judicial system must be allowed to run its course. Innocent until proven guilty.
Either way: Ugh.
posted by notyou at 5:22 PM on July 19, 2007
Fuck Michael Vick.
posted by cloeburner at 5:23 PM on July 19, 2007 [6 favorites]
posted by cloeburner at 5:23 PM on July 19, 2007 [6 favorites]
Who's your dawg, Cheese? Which one is your dawg?
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:25 PM on July 19, 2007 [6 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:25 PM on July 19, 2007 [6 favorites]
Doesn't Antwan Patton (Big Boi from Outkast) also own a bunch of pit bull kennels?
Not to excuse Vick at all, just that there may be a couple other high profile people into this heinous thing (I don't think it should be dignified with the word "sport") and it would probably be worth tracking them down...
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:30 PM on July 19, 2007
Not to excuse Vick at all, just that there may be a couple other high profile people into this heinous thing (I don't think it should be dignified with the word "sport") and it would probably be worth tracking them down...
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:30 PM on July 19, 2007
Dogs are for hugging and kissing, not fighting :-(
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2007 [8 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2007 [8 favorites]
That has run through my mind every time I have seen this story today AZ.
I just don't understand the appeal.
posted by spartacusroosevelt at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2007
I just don't understand the appeal.
posted by spartacusroosevelt at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2007
He may be a professional football player, but I tell you I would fuck Michael Vick up with my own bare hands right now if the opportunity presented itself.
posted by vito90 at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
posted by vito90 at 5:31 PM on July 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
This has been on the news in my office for the last two days, and it is just infuriating me. It's been a never-ending loop of footage of dogs being set on one another, and it's making me fucking crazy.
People who engage in dogfighting deserve a special kind of hell. That you could take something you raised and took care of, something that you've brought up to believe that it can trust you, and you put it in a ring and make it fight to the death?
Fuck you. You are undeserving of my sympathy and for a punishment, I say we take the very dogs you were trying to harm and set them on you. Let's see how you feel about aggressive dogs then...
posted by quin at 5:35 PM on July 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
People who engage in dogfighting deserve a special kind of hell. That you could take something you raised and took care of, something that you've brought up to believe that it can trust you, and you put it in a ring and make it fight to the death?
Fuck you. You are undeserving of my sympathy and for a punishment, I say we take the very dogs you were trying to harm and set them on you. Let's see how you feel about aggressive dogs then...
posted by quin at 5:35 PM on July 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
Joey Michaels: LOTS of athletes and entertainers have pit bull kennels. Arbitrarily calling out their names doesn't make them suspect.
posted by gnutron at 5:42 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by gnutron at 5:42 PM on July 19, 2007
You hate to say this without any due process, but the indictment is so long with so many instances and there are so many cooperating witnesses it just appears that there's no way he's innocent. And if you take a look at his brother and what a bad egg he is, well, I wouldn't be surprised if both of them are pieces of trash.
Granted pieces of this indictment might not be entirely true, but for as bad as shooting a dog is, you have to be a special kind of messed up to drown/electrocute a dog (or in this case, outsource the work to your buddy).
posted by fusinski at 5:42 PM on July 19, 2007
Granted pieces of this indictment might not be entirely true, but for as bad as shooting a dog is, you have to be a special kind of messed up to drown/electrocute a dog (or in this case, outsource the work to your buddy).
posted by fusinski at 5:42 PM on July 19, 2007
Dog fighting on its own is entirely offensive, but the idea of electrocuting the dogs to death is especially offensive to me. They had to plan for that. They brought special toys with them for that night of dog killing. The other methods for killing the dogs (drowning, bashing against the ground, hanging) sound like they didn't have any quicker implements handy. Vick and his buddies decided to have a special party the time(s) they electrocuted the dogs. That is just fucking sickening.
posted by aburd at 5:44 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by aburd at 5:44 PM on July 19, 2007
I suggest that those that are offended by this type of behavior by public figures in the sports and entertainment venues use their dollars to have an impact.
Boycott events/concerts/performances/products of anyone participating or condoning the behavior. Encourage your friends and families to do the same. And, make a contribution to your local Humane Society.
Otherwise, this is all empty talk on the blue... won't make a damn bit of difference.
posted by HuronBob at 5:47 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
Boycott events/concerts/performances/products of anyone participating or condoning the behavior. Encourage your friends and families to do the same. And, make a contribution to your local Humane Society.
Otherwise, this is all empty talk on the blue... won't make a damn bit of difference.
posted by HuronBob at 5:47 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I saw Michael Vick in the grocery store once before all this happened.
I really, really hope I see him again. "Cleanup on aisle six, there's a dog-fighting-bucket-of-cocks-choking-son-of-a-bitch-douchebag all over the floor."
posted by sephira at 5:52 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I really, really hope I see him again. "Cleanup on aisle six, there's a dog-fighting-bucket-of-cocks-choking-son-of-a-bitch-douchebag all over the floor."
posted by sephira at 5:52 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
Also, and I realize there's no direct comparison in terms of cruelty and freewill and etc, but there is a kind of equivalence between what M Vick does for a living (compete in a violent sport) and what that makes him in that context, in the eyes of spectators and of those who own the game (a means to someone else's ends) and their expectations of the physical brutality and pain professional football players are encouraged to endure ... there's some similarity between all that and what he has done to his dogs.
And one would think his career would make him more sensitive to that dynamic. But allegedly it hasn't.
posted by notyou at 5:55 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
And one would think his career would make him more sensitive to that dynamic. But allegedly it hasn't.
posted by notyou at 5:55 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Let's see, we're disgusted that a guy we pay to watch bash violently into other guys for our entertainment likes to watch other animals bash into eachother for his entertainment?
[I don't like dog-fighting either but that is the first thought that occured to me]
posted by jonmc at 6:01 PM on July 19, 2007
[I don't like dog-fighting either but that is the first thought that occured to me]
posted by jonmc at 6:01 PM on July 19, 2007
I blame the grinding poverty that professional football megastars have to live with day to day.
posted by DU at 6:02 PM on July 19, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by DU at 6:02 PM on July 19, 2007 [4 favorites]
If Vick is guilty, I hope he rots in jail. Those pictures of the poor dogs make me want to cry.
posted by papakwanz at 6:02 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by papakwanz at 6:02 PM on July 19, 2007
gnutron: Sorry, that was a partially formed comment on my part.
I have naively believed that celebrities that own pit bull kennels (like Vick and Big Boi) just love that breed. I honestly never imagined, until this story broke a couple months ago, that they were breeding them for dog fighting.
Big Boi's name just jumped into my head because I remember thinking "how neat - he breeds dogs" when I first read about his kennels. Vick's indictment makes me suspicious now - albeit in a totally unfair way.
I guess whenever I discover that something that I thought was quaint or charming was actually hiding something kind of awful, I get suspicious of everyone doing that quaint or charming thing.
Unfair to Big Boi, though. I am hoping he just breeds them because he likes doggies.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:07 PM on July 19, 2007
I have naively believed that celebrities that own pit bull kennels (like Vick and Big Boi) just love that breed. I honestly never imagined, until this story broke a couple months ago, that they were breeding them for dog fighting.
Big Boi's name just jumped into my head because I remember thinking "how neat - he breeds dogs" when I first read about his kennels. Vick's indictment makes me suspicious now - albeit in a totally unfair way.
I guess whenever I discover that something that I thought was quaint or charming was actually hiding something kind of awful, I get suspicious of everyone doing that quaint or charming thing.
Unfair to Big Boi, though. I am hoping he just breeds them because he likes doggies.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:07 PM on July 19, 2007
Robert Byrd's take on the controversy (YouTube, C-SPAN) is surprisingly coherent, once you take into consideration that he's about 500 years old.
posted by dhammond at 6:10 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by dhammond at 6:10 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I blame the grinding poverty that professional football megastars have to live with day to day.
I understand it drives some of them to cocaine abuse.
posted by jonmc at 6:11 PM on July 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
I understand it drives some of them to cocaine abuse.
posted by jonmc at 6:11 PM on July 19, 2007 [5 favorites]
Oh man. I truly hope he loses everything. The house, his NFL pension, any chance at a future career in anything that isn't related to a MLM scheme. People who wantonly kill animals are among the worst kind of people, and we should absolutely punish them.
Now if only some poor, stupid NFL player would get caught killing Greyhounds, so people would pay some damn attention to that...
posted by god hates math at 6:13 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Now if only some poor, stupid NFL player would get caught killing Greyhounds, so people would pay some damn attention to that...
posted by god hates math at 6:13 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Since it's unlikely that Vick (if guilty) will be forced to fight for his life against rabid dogs, as he deserves, I hope at least that the NFL has the sense to end his career (provided it isn't effectively curtailed by jail time anyway). A lengthy prison stay followed by employment as a greeter at Wal-Mart seems insufficient, yet cruel enough in its own way.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:14 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:14 PM on July 19, 2007
Let's see, we're disgusted that a guy we pay to watch bash violently into other guys for our entertainment likes to watch other animals bash into eachother for his entertainment?
And everyone who participates in that sport chooses to be there. And is compensated, at least to a degree.
(FWIW, boxing disgusts me.)
posted by kableh at 6:21 PM on July 19, 2007
And everyone who participates in that sport chooses to be there. And is compensated, at least to a degree.
(FWIW, boxing disgusts me.)
posted by kableh at 6:21 PM on July 19, 2007
Having animals kill each other for your entertainment. Worth kicking someone's ass. Having others kill animals for your entertaining dinner. Worth bitching at me for mentioning it.
Check.
posted by False Jesii Inc. at 6:21 PM on July 19, 2007
Check.
posted by False Jesii Inc. at 6:21 PM on July 19, 2007
One of the (J)Trailblazers here in my hometown of Portland was busted a year or two ago for dogfighting involvement. He was abandoning the dogs that weren't useful anymore, adding to the strays population. Follow-up stories on the rescued dogs show that they're doing very well, and extremely grateful to their new owners for giving them peaceful, loving lives.
This dogfighting shit is totally inexcusable inhuman behavior. If athletes want to compete on the field and bash into one another, fine, they have free will, and they're getting paid. But a dog is loyal, and doesn't get to chose. Take up boxing and put yourself in the ring if you want that rush.
I have a pitty, and he is awesome. Grendel And besides all the sensationalism of dog attacks in the media, we get to hear these awful stories of the assholiest of owners.
posted by asfuller at 6:22 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
This dogfighting shit is totally inexcusable inhuman behavior. If athletes want to compete on the field and bash into one another, fine, they have free will, and they're getting paid. But a dog is loyal, and doesn't get to chose. Take up boxing and put yourself in the ring if you want that rush.
I have a pitty, and he is awesome. Grendel And besides all the sensationalism of dog attacks in the media, we get to hear these awful stories of the assholiest of owners.
posted by asfuller at 6:22 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm offended by what Vick's doing as well and I hope he's punished for it, but I see way more cries for vengeance in threads about crimes against animals than in threads about serial killers and terrorists. I'm just saying.
posted by jonmc at 6:22 PM on July 19, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 6:22 PM on July 19, 2007 [3 favorites]
Having animals kill each other for your entertainment. Worth kicking someone's ass. Having others kill animals for your entertaining dinner. Worth bitching at me for mentioning it.
Oh, brother.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:23 PM on July 19, 2007
Oh, brother.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:23 PM on July 19, 2007
god hates math writes "The house, his NFL pension, any chance at a future career in anything that isn't related to a MLM scheme."
OJ's pension is safe so there probably isn't much hope there.
posted by Mitheral at 6:25 PM on July 19, 2007
OJ's pension is safe so there probably isn't much hope there.
posted by Mitheral at 6:25 PM on July 19, 2007
The dog-fighting is bad enough, but imagine the thought and energy that goes into intentionally raising creatures through the use of pain, fear, and hunger to make them the canine equivalents of serial-killers. That's why these fuckers should all go to jail.
If the NFL has any balls, they'll ban him for at least a year, but I doubt they will.
posted by bardic at 6:29 PM on July 19, 2007
If the NFL has any balls, they'll ban him for at least a year, but I doubt they will.
posted by bardic at 6:29 PM on July 19, 2007
If the NFL has any balls, they'll ban him for at least a year, but I doubt they will.
The NFL won't have to do anything. People will riot if they don't ban him forever. Imagine the demonstrations if Vick and the Falcons play in Seattle, LA, NYC, Chicago. They'll run him off the field. Don't expect Vick to play in the NFL again unless he comes out as the country's greatest spokesman against dog-fighting, and personally I don't think he has the heart for that. He'll whine and gripe about the injustice of his own fate, never realizing why what he did was wrong. And slowly people will forget about him, and he'll be a footnote to history. But for all intents and purposes, his life as he knows it is over - as one can tell from this thread, normal people don't cotton the treating of dogs in this way.
posted by billysumday at 6:38 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
The NFL won't have to do anything. People will riot if they don't ban him forever. Imagine the demonstrations if Vick and the Falcons play in Seattle, LA, NYC, Chicago. They'll run him off the field. Don't expect Vick to play in the NFL again unless he comes out as the country's greatest spokesman against dog-fighting, and personally I don't think he has the heart for that. He'll whine and gripe about the injustice of his own fate, never realizing why what he did was wrong. And slowly people will forget about him, and he'll be a footnote to history. But for all intents and purposes, his life as he knows it is over - as one can tell from this thread, normal people don't cotton the treating of dogs in this way.
posted by billysumday at 6:38 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
but I see way more cries for vengeance in threads about crimes against animals than in threads about serial killers and terrorists.
Which is neither here nor there. People love their pets and see them as totally dependent. You're over thinking this. The grand statement you're searching for isn't there.
If the NFL has any balls, they'll ban him for at least a year, but I doubt they will.
Yes, it would certainly take balls to ban him when he still hasn't gone to trial.
posted by justgary at 6:39 PM on July 19, 2007
Which is neither here nor there. People love their pets and see them as totally dependent. You're over thinking this. The grand statement you're searching for isn't there.
If the NFL has any balls, they'll ban him for at least a year, but I doubt they will.
Yes, it would certainly take balls to ban him when he still hasn't gone to trial.
posted by justgary at 6:39 PM on July 19, 2007
Sorry, I meant to say that the NFL won't have to do anything because Atlanta will cut Vick from their roster and no team will ever sign another contract with him. Problem solved without league interference.
posted by billysumday at 6:40 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by billysumday at 6:40 PM on July 19, 2007
Let's see, we're disgusted that a guy we pay to watch bash violently into other guys for our entertainment likes to watch other animals bash into eachother for his entertainment?
Yeah. We are. When a professional football player gets too old and weak to compete, he gets to retire. I might have more pity for athletes of Vick's ilk if they had to face death by electrocution, or drowning, or having their heads bashed in when they've outlived their usefulness to the franchise, but as things currently stand, your average professional athlete has a sweeter deal in life than your average pit-fightin' dog.
posted by infinitywaltz at 6:44 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yeah. We are. When a professional football player gets too old and weak to compete, he gets to retire. I might have more pity for athletes of Vick's ilk if they had to face death by electrocution, or drowning, or having their heads bashed in when they've outlived their usefulness to the franchise, but as things currently stand, your average professional athlete has a sweeter deal in life than your average pit-fightin' dog.
posted by infinitywaltz at 6:44 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Which is neither here nor there. People love their pets and see them as totally dependent. You're over thinking this. The grand statement you're searching for isn't there.
I'm not searching for a grand statement. It's just something I noticed, that cruelty to animals seems to bring out the vengeance around here more than anything else.
posted by jonmc at 6:45 PM on July 19, 2007
I'm not searching for a grand statement. It's just something I noticed, that cruelty to animals seems to bring out the vengeance around here more than anything else.
posted by jonmc at 6:45 PM on July 19, 2007
People who engage in peoplefighting deserve a special kind of hell. That you could take something you raised and took care of, something that you've brought up to believe that it can trust you, and you put it in a warzone and make it fight to the death?
I don't wanna derail, but I really just made this connection, myself. Our species is awfully shitty sometimes.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:45 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I don't wanna derail, but I really just made this connection, myself. Our species is awfully shitty sometimes.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:45 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
Jon,
Don't be silly.
Also, fuck this fucking sack of shit. His hell has lots and lots of very sharp teeth.
posted by Divine_Wino at 6:47 PM on July 19, 2007
Don't be silly.
Also, fuck this fucking sack of shit. His hell has lots and lots of very sharp teeth.
posted by Divine_Wino at 6:47 PM on July 19, 2007
Having animals kill each other for your entertainment. Worth kicking someone's ass. Having others kill animals for your entertaining dinner. Worth bitching at me for mentioning it.
Oh, brother.
Oh, brother? Why is this point so easily dismissed? Many animals go through worse pain than this in factory farms, yet people don't get up in arms about that and instead are fine with buying those products.
I can at least understand the argument from those who think, for example, that animals either don't feel pain the way we do or are not deserving of moral consideration, but the sort of hypocrisy we always see in these pet-abuse threads drives me crazy. Too bad for the pigs and cows that they didn't get chosen as pets, I guess.
(I actually don't have a problem with eating meat itself, but the treatment that most food animals get in the US is pretty horrific, and that seems to be perfectly in alignment with what we see here - mistreating animals for the enjoyment of humans).
posted by wildcrdj at 6:51 PM on July 19, 2007 [3 favorites]
Oh, brother.
Oh, brother? Why is this point so easily dismissed? Many animals go through worse pain than this in factory farms, yet people don't get up in arms about that and instead are fine with buying those products.
I can at least understand the argument from those who think, for example, that animals either don't feel pain the way we do or are not deserving of moral consideration, but the sort of hypocrisy we always see in these pet-abuse threads drives me crazy. Too bad for the pigs and cows that they didn't get chosen as pets, I guess.
(I actually don't have a problem with eating meat itself, but the treatment that most food animals get in the US is pretty horrific, and that seems to be perfectly in alignment with what we see here - mistreating animals for the enjoyment of humans).
posted by wildcrdj at 6:51 PM on July 19, 2007 [3 favorites]
Poor Michael Vick. Even if he's acquitted, he'll have a hard time getting past this. If he is guilty, well, that's obviously worse. He would have to have some very serious issues to be making so many millions of dollars in a prestigious sport and yet still feel the compulsion to engage in this cruel enterprise. I can't imagine it as just an addiction to gambling since, with his millions of dollars, he could gamble in any legal fashion to his wallet's extent. Why add the abject and felonious dog fighting into it? There would have to be some element of enjoyment or sadistic indifference to the suffering of these animals in order to be so involved. Either way, it would be rather sociopathic of him. As with most things, it has probably been an ongoing confluence of bad circumstances and very poor judgement (if guilty) - the gambling, the bizarro machismo, the petty power, the illicit adrenaline, all coming together into the perfect chemical concoction to keep him hooked.
Of course, despite all of that, if he is guilty but can manage to fully understand the error of his ways and genuinely express contrition he should enjoy the full benefit of our criminal justice system, ready and able to rehabilitate him so he can have healthy, productive models in which to channel his abundant enthusiasm.
...
Oh, wait. I forgot where I was. Forget it. Fuck him.
That last bit is not an indictment of MeFi. Not a Falcons or Vick fan. Fan of NFL since early 90s. Absolutely love dogs. Seriously hate people who fight dogs. These qualifications ruin everything.
posted by effwerd at 6:54 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Of course, despite all of that, if he is guilty but can manage to fully understand the error of his ways and genuinely express contrition he should enjoy the full benefit of our criminal justice system, ready and able to rehabilitate him so he can have healthy, productive models in which to channel his abundant enthusiasm.
...
Oh, wait. I forgot where I was. Forget it. Fuck him.
That last bit is not an indictment of MeFi. Not a Falcons or Vick fan. Fan of NFL since early 90s. Absolutely love dogs. Seriously hate people who fight dogs. These qualifications ruin everything.
posted by effwerd at 6:54 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Jon,
Don't be silly.
I'm not defending the shitball thug, just thinking out loud.
posted by jonmc at 6:57 PM on July 19, 2007
Don't be silly.
I'm not defending the shitball thug, just thinking out loud.
posted by jonmc at 6:57 PM on July 19, 2007
jonmc : I'm not searching for a grand statement. It's just something I noticed, that cruelty to animals seems to bring out the vengeance around here more than anything else.
I can't speak for the rest of Mefi, but personally? I generally like animals more than people. They are less complicated and easier to get along with. But more specifically, I get upset because in most cases, animal abuse is something that is easily ignored, because animals are property, or a food source, or can't complain in a way that articulates the pain they are in.
And the idea of rich assholes with too much testosterone finding this kind of thing entertaining just makes it worse. I mean, I could almost see the dog-fighting part, people have been doing that for centuries. I don't agree with it, but it does have a long history. No, what sickens me and makes me want to hurt people, is the idea that when a dog lost, they would continue torturing it to death.
That's the bit that makes me want to reciprocate in kind.
posted by quin at 7:08 PM on July 19, 2007
I can't speak for the rest of Mefi, but personally? I generally like animals more than people. They are less complicated and easier to get along with. But more specifically, I get upset because in most cases, animal abuse is something that is easily ignored, because animals are property, or a food source, or can't complain in a way that articulates the pain they are in.
And the idea of rich assholes with too much testosterone finding this kind of thing entertaining just makes it worse. I mean, I could almost see the dog-fighting part, people have been doing that for centuries. I don't agree with it, but it does have a long history. No, what sickens me and makes me want to hurt people, is the idea that when a dog lost, they would continue torturing it to death.
That's the bit that makes me want to reciprocate in kind.
posted by quin at 7:08 PM on July 19, 2007
What I found most interesting was the "statement" made by the aptly named Arthur Blank. I'll quote it in its entireity here, if you didn't read it in TFA I urge you to read it here. Try to parse it and determine what he's saying, I dare you.
We know you're anxious to hear more from us regarding the indictment of Michael Vick and its implications to the Falcons, Blank said in the statement. "Pleased be assured that we are working diligently on exploring our options and getting the right people involved in this situation.
"This is an emotionally charged and complicated matter. There are a wide range of interests and legal issues that need to be carefully considered as we move ahead, including our need to respect the due process that Michael is entitled to. Also, this situation affects everyone -- our club, our players and associates, our sponsors, our fans and the Atlanta community among them -- so we must consider all of our customers in making any decisions.
"Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy, but we are committed to doing the right thing. As the owner of this club that's, ultimately, my responsibility.
"In the meantime, know that I'm saddened and distressed about this -- not for myself, but for our fans and community who have been so loyal to us. We will do our very best to continue to earn your support."
I'm especially intregued by the part where he says "Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy, but we are committed to doing the right thing." The deliberate ambiguity there is a masterpiece. Is he talking about the dogfighting? Or suspending/firing/whatevering Vlick? Or something else entirely? He seems to have said something, but on closer analysis the statement is null. What "the right thing" may or may not be is left completely up to the opinion of the listener.
Whoever wrote that statement is a master.
On the derail re: dogfighting vs. meat eating: It is more than somewhat disingenuous to compare what amounts to death by torture to the relatively humane death found in most slaughterhouses. While there is no denying that the factory farm system that agribusiness has evolved is improper (not to mention unhealthy), and inhumane, the simple fact of meat eating is not, IMO, comperable to dogfighting, cockfighting, or bull fighting. In the latter pain and suffering are the goal, in the former they are minimized.
I don't think anyone here will try to defend the factory farm system, its pretty indefensable whether from a humanitarian standpoint, an environmental standpoint, or a food quality standpoint. But you're full of it if you think that a properly raised and treated farm animal being killed at a decent slaughterhous is comperable to dogfighting.
And, to produce a derail of my own, am I the only person who objects to a for-profit corporate entity granted special exemptions from the anti-trust laws so it can engage in monopolistic (or at least oligopolistic) practices calling itself a "club"?
posted by sotonohito at 7:11 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
We know you're anxious to hear more from us regarding the indictment of Michael Vick and its implications to the Falcons, Blank said in the statement. "Pleased be assured that we are working diligently on exploring our options and getting the right people involved in this situation.
"This is an emotionally charged and complicated matter. There are a wide range of interests and legal issues that need to be carefully considered as we move ahead, including our need to respect the due process that Michael is entitled to. Also, this situation affects everyone -- our club, our players and associates, our sponsors, our fans and the Atlanta community among them -- so we must consider all of our customers in making any decisions.
"Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy, but we are committed to doing the right thing. As the owner of this club that's, ultimately, my responsibility.
"In the meantime, know that I'm saddened and distressed about this -- not for myself, but for our fans and community who have been so loyal to us. We will do our very best to continue to earn your support."
I'm especially intregued by the part where he says "Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy, but we are committed to doing the right thing." The deliberate ambiguity there is a masterpiece. Is he talking about the dogfighting? Or suspending/firing/whatevering Vlick? Or something else entirely? He seems to have said something, but on closer analysis the statement is null. What "the right thing" may or may not be is left completely up to the opinion of the listener.
Whoever wrote that statement is a master.
On the derail re: dogfighting vs. meat eating: It is more than somewhat disingenuous to compare what amounts to death by torture to the relatively humane death found in most slaughterhouses. While there is no denying that the factory farm system that agribusiness has evolved is improper (not to mention unhealthy), and inhumane, the simple fact of meat eating is not, IMO, comperable to dogfighting, cockfighting, or bull fighting. In the latter pain and suffering are the goal, in the former they are minimized.
I don't think anyone here will try to defend the factory farm system, its pretty indefensable whether from a humanitarian standpoint, an environmental standpoint, or a food quality standpoint. But you're full of it if you think that a properly raised and treated farm animal being killed at a decent slaughterhous is comperable to dogfighting.
And, to produce a derail of my own, am I the only person who objects to a for-profit corporate entity granted special exemptions from the anti-trust laws so it can engage in monopolistic (or at least oligopolistic) practices calling itself a "club"?
posted by sotonohito at 7:11 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Wow asfuller, your dog Grendel is beautiful. I've always liked pits with brindle coats.
posted by quin at 7:15 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by quin at 7:15 PM on July 19, 2007
What HuronBob said.
There is a long tradition of animals fighting for our entertainment. Most have heard of cock fighting and bear baiting. Michael Vick wasn't alone in this. There is a market for this type of entertainment. Thats what makes me sick.
posted by Sailormom at 7:17 PM on July 19, 2007
There is a long tradition of animals fighting for our entertainment. Most have heard of cock fighting and bear baiting. Michael Vick wasn't alone in this. There is a market for this type of entertainment. Thats what makes me sick.
posted by Sailormom at 7:17 PM on July 19, 2007
Thanks sotohohito and quin. You said it way better than the comments I kept typing and erasing.
posted by Divine_Wino at 7:21 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by Divine_Wino at 7:21 PM on July 19, 2007
This kind of contemporary activity kinda fucks this idea up a little bit.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 7:30 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by YoBananaBoy at 7:30 PM on July 19, 2007
Please tell me people are not seriously equating implicitly or explicitly the acts of playing football and dogfighting in terms of cruelty.
I really hope that we can all understand the differences between professional football players who are payed handsomely to undertake a sport that they voluntarily play which is not designed to kill or maim them, and dogs that are beaten, tortured, fought, and brtually killed without any compensation or say in their fate.
Right...?
posted by rollbiz at 7:35 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I really hope that we can all understand the differences between professional football players who are payed handsomely to undertake a sport that they voluntarily play which is not designed to kill or maim them, and dogs that are beaten, tortured, fought, and brtually killed without any compensation or say in their fate.
Right...?
posted by rollbiz at 7:35 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Please tell me people are not seriously equating implicitly or explicitly the acts of playing football and dogfighting in terms of cruelty.
I, for one, wasn't. It was a half-assed observation meant half-humorously, not a serious talking point.
posted by jonmc at 7:38 PM on July 19, 2007
I, for one, wasn't. It was a half-assed observation meant half-humorously, not a serious talking point.
posted by jonmc at 7:38 PM on July 19, 2007
right rollbiz, no comparison in terms of cruelty or self determination.
But there's certainly some equivalence in terms of sports and violence, entertainment and gambling, spectator and performer.
posted by notyou at 7:42 PM on July 19, 2007
But there's certainly some equivalence in terms of sports and violence, entertainment and gambling, spectator and performer.
posted by notyou at 7:42 PM on July 19, 2007
@various mefites
I wasn't trying to make a big fuss about meat eating. My point was more along jonmc's point. I don't eat meat, but I'm also not disgusted by the fact that other people do. Animals kill each other. Normal old dogs kill each other reasonably often. I'm not disgusted by that either. I realize that this is worse, but I don't find my soul deeply wounded right now that a man three states away from me dared to fight dogs.
I just don't know where the bile comes from in this thread. There are so many worse things to get someone's dander up this much, but this is it? Michael Vick is really, really mean to dogs? Seriously?
posted by False Jesii Inc. at 7:46 PM on July 19, 2007
I wasn't trying to make a big fuss about meat eating. My point was more along jonmc's point. I don't eat meat, but I'm also not disgusted by the fact that other people do. Animals kill each other. Normal old dogs kill each other reasonably often. I'm not disgusted by that either. I realize that this is worse, but I don't find my soul deeply wounded right now that a man three states away from me dared to fight dogs.
I just don't know where the bile comes from in this thread. There are so many worse things to get someone's dander up this much, but this is it? Michael Vick is really, really mean to dogs? Seriously?
posted by False Jesii Inc. at 7:46 PM on July 19, 2007
When the story first broke, I was amaza-mused at one of the local sports commentator's rant, where he wavered between "watching violence is bad" and "but football is a good sport". He'd get all angry and disgusted, but then backtrack a bit when he thought his statements might be equally applicable to paying money to see grown men give each other concussions.
posted by nomisxid at 7:49 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by nomisxid at 7:49 PM on July 19, 2007
The biggest issue that is being discussed on my team's forums is the lack of an indictment of Vick's cousin who actually lived at the house. This gives every indication that he has turned on Vick and is one of the co-operating witnesses mentioned in the indictment. I have no doubt at all about Vick's guilt, the indictment is damning.
Regardless of the legal outcome, I sincerely believe that Vick has played his last down, with or without any suspension handed out by Goodell.
There are an enormous number of dog owners in North America (40% of households, so I've read), and none of them will stand to have this sack of shit represent anything related to their state, city or team. Groups like PETA and the ASPCA will go after the team owner's other businesses as well. I expect demonstrations at Home Depots any time now to get Mr. Blank's attention.
I fully expect Blank will tell Vick that he is suspended from the team, paid or unpaid, and he will be released next season. Prison seems likely, and after that, what team would take him?
Vick is done. I couldn't be happier about that.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 8:06 PM on July 19, 2007
Regardless of the legal outcome, I sincerely believe that Vick has played his last down, with or without any suspension handed out by Goodell.
There are an enormous number of dog owners in North America (40% of households, so I've read), and none of them will stand to have this sack of shit represent anything related to their state, city or team. Groups like PETA and the ASPCA will go after the team owner's other businesses as well. I expect demonstrations at Home Depots any time now to get Mr. Blank's attention.
I fully expect Blank will tell Vick that he is suspended from the team, paid or unpaid, and he will be released next season. Prison seems likely, and after that, what team would take him?
Vick is done. I couldn't be happier about that.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 8:06 PM on July 19, 2007
The real tragedy here is that this means Joey Harrington will once again be taking snaps in the NFL.
posted by xmutex at 8:11 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by xmutex at 8:11 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I just don't know where the bile comes from in this thread. There are so many worse things to get someone's dander up this much, but this is it? Michael Vick is really, really mean to dogs? Seriously?
posted by False Jesii Inc. at 9:46 PM on July 19 [+] [!]
Have you read the indictment? Testing puppies for fighting instinct and then killing eight of them by electrocution, gunshot, and killing at least one by slamming it into the ground?
That is more that being really, really mean for fucks' sake.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 8:13 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by False Jesii Inc. at 9:46 PM on July 19 [+] [!]
Have you read the indictment? Testing puppies for fighting instinct and then killing eight of them by electrocution, gunshot, and killing at least one by slamming it into the ground?
That is more that being really, really mean for fucks' sake.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 8:13 PM on July 19, 2007
The real tragedy here is that this means Joey Harrington will once again be taking snaps in the NFL.
posted by xmutex at 10:11 PM on July 19 [+] [!]
I'm a Lions' fan. Please don't mention that name. It makes me twitch.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 8:14 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by xmutex at 10:11 PM on July 19 [+] [!]
I'm a Lions' fan. Please don't mention that name. It makes me twitch.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 8:14 PM on July 19, 2007
A 12 year old boy was mauled by a crackhouse proprietor's pitbull right in front my client's house a while back. Actually, the dog went at her child but he threw a ball that momentarily distracted the animal, who then focused in on his freind. It latched on to the boy's elbow and it took the attempts of multiple grown men to get it off. His elbow was shattered so badly the doctor couldn't even set it.
They just shut down a dog fight ring around the block from the same house last week, the owner was having the matches right in his living room.
This kind of shit goes on all the time. I see attack trained pits every day. I try to steer as clear the fuck away from them as humanly possible.
posted by The Straightener at 8:27 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
They just shut down a dog fight ring around the block from the same house last week, the owner was having the matches right in his living room.
This kind of shit goes on all the time. I see attack trained pits every day. I try to steer as clear the fuck away from them as humanly possible.
posted by The Straightener at 8:27 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Interestingly, Nike has so far failed to acknowledge the problem. Perhaps the visceral revulsion normal human beings feel for people who torture innocent animals to death escapes them? Or more likely they just haven't completed their financial calculations yet, you know, will it cost more to keep him or let him go? How's that spreadsheet coming Nike?
posted by scheptech at 8:33 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by scheptech at 8:33 PM on July 19, 2007
When I started hearing about this a couple of days ago I was disgusted. I became absolutely blind-infuriated this afternoon, listening to a few radio interviews, as the spin started about how "sports" like dog-fighting were all part of a deep, rich cultural tradition that we simply don't understand or appreciate.
Sorry...if your "culture" includes dogs killing each other for entertainment, then I honestly think the sooner we eliminate your "culture" from the global gene pool, the better.
Fucking trash.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:44 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Sorry...if your "culture" includes dogs killing each other for entertainment, then I honestly think the sooner we eliminate your "culture" from the global gene pool, the better.
Fucking trash.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:44 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Wait, jail time aside, do you think the majority of the NFL paying population would up and boycott games that Michael Vick played in? I don't.
posted by stratastar at 8:47 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by stratastar at 8:47 PM on July 19, 2007
It's not cultural, it's ghetto bullshit. It's about as cultural as brown bagged malt liquor and glass stems stuffed with Chore Boy.
posted by The Straightener at 8:52 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by The Straightener at 8:52 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Big Boi's name just jumped into my head because I remember thinking "how neat - he breeds dogs" when I first read about his kennels. Vick's indictment makes me suspicious now - albeit in a totally unfair way.
Me too, so I googled and found this.
posted by Pacheco at 9:03 PM on July 19, 2007
Me too, so I googled and found this.
posted by Pacheco at 9:03 PM on July 19, 2007
Ah, there we go. Beginning of the end.
I'm almost feeling sorry for Mr. Vick now wondering whether he's starting to understand what's happened.
My father owned two pitbulls, loved the first one so much he got another when the first died. They were both the sweetest-natured dogs, I suspect, because of how they were raised. Raising these things to fight takes planning, effort, and dedication to obtain the desired result just the same way.
posted by scheptech at 9:10 PM on July 19, 2007
I'm almost feeling sorry for Mr. Vick now wondering whether he's starting to understand what's happened.
My father owned two pitbulls, loved the first one so much he got another when the first died. They were both the sweetest-natured dogs, I suspect, because of how they were raised. Raising these things to fight takes planning, effort, and dedication to obtain the desired result just the same way.
posted by scheptech at 9:10 PM on July 19, 2007
this is truly one of the most atrocious behaviors i have ever heard of. not only the dog fighting, but the cruel deaths given to the "losing" dogs. to a devoted owner of a sweet and gentle pit bull mix like myself, this is especially sickening.
posted by spaceproject at 9:12 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by spaceproject at 9:12 PM on July 19, 2007
"Not to excuse Vick at all, just that there may be a couple other high profile people into this heinous thing (I don't think it should be dignified with the word 'sport') and it would probably be worth tracking them down..."
Posted by Joey Michaels
Are we talking about dog fighting or the way Vick plays football?
posted by Cyclopsis Raptor at 9:14 PM on July 19, 2007
Posted by Joey Michaels
Are we talking about dog fighting or the way Vick plays football?
posted by Cyclopsis Raptor at 9:14 PM on July 19, 2007
There are so many worse things to get someone's dander up this much, but this is it?
Nope. There's much more upping of dander in other threads on other topics.
posted by ao4047 at 9:20 PM on July 19, 2007
Nope. There's much more upping of dander in other threads on other topics.
posted by ao4047 at 9:20 PM on July 19, 2007
All those who advocate beating Michael Vick to death with your bare hands, please take a moment to chill out and rethink the issue.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:33 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:33 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
The outrage in here is (rightly) high. But I find it funny that some of you same outraged people would be buying tickets to the Roman Colisium this weekend to watch the Lions vs the Christians, if you lived in the time of Nero. I suppose this will be labeled a troll.
posted by spock at 9:48 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by spock at 9:48 PM on July 19, 2007
This choice paragraphs in the wikipedia dog fighting article:
"Rhonda Evans is a sociologist and associate professor in the department of criminal justice at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette who has published four academic articles on dog fighting. She stated in a story published by the Palm Beach Post that she had found that owners of high-dollar fighting dogs spanned all walks of life and social classes, with a common link of "a machismo mentality." Evans said "For them, tough dogs are a symbol of manhood... and by winning, the dogs build up their owners' ego. They see it as a valid, legitimate sport that is no worse than boxing or football."
Rap and other urban music also seem to clearly glorify dog fighting. Jay-Z shows dogs preparing for battle in the uncensored version of his music video, 99 Problems. A powerful-looking pit bull is on the cover of a CD by rapper DMX that's titled Grand Champ. "Grand Champ" is said to be a reference to a dog that has won five dogfights.
Madison Avenue advertising firms have capitalized on the same theme. When Nike was criticized about an ad featuring a growling pit bull and Rottweiler about to face off, the company denied the ad encourages dog fighting. The representative went on to state, however, "People have to understand the youth culture we cater to. Our market is the urban, edgy, hip-hop culture.""
Disgusting as it may be, it is part and parcel of America 2007. If Vick beats the rap, it would provide the most entertaining outcome. Last I heard, Jay-Z was dating Beyonce, a young lady with a spotless reputation and top quality public relations.
posted by bukvich at 9:49 PM on July 19, 2007
"Rhonda Evans is a sociologist and associate professor in the department of criminal justice at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette who has published four academic articles on dog fighting. She stated in a story published by the Palm Beach Post that she had found that owners of high-dollar fighting dogs spanned all walks of life and social classes, with a common link of "a machismo mentality." Evans said "For them, tough dogs are a symbol of manhood... and by winning, the dogs build up their owners' ego. They see it as a valid, legitimate sport that is no worse than boxing or football."
Rap and other urban music also seem to clearly glorify dog fighting. Jay-Z shows dogs preparing for battle in the uncensored version of his music video, 99 Problems. A powerful-looking pit bull is on the cover of a CD by rapper DMX that's titled Grand Champ. "Grand Champ" is said to be a reference to a dog that has won five dogfights.
Madison Avenue advertising firms have capitalized on the same theme. When Nike was criticized about an ad featuring a growling pit bull and Rottweiler about to face off, the company denied the ad encourages dog fighting. The representative went on to state, however, "People have to understand the youth culture we cater to. Our market is the urban, edgy, hip-hop culture.""
Disgusting as it may be, it is part and parcel of America 2007. If Vick beats the rap, it would provide the most entertaining outcome. Last I heard, Jay-Z was dating Beyonce, a young lady with a spotless reputation and top quality public relations.
posted by bukvich at 9:49 PM on July 19, 2007
Vick's in serious trouble. People who breed and fight dogs keep extensive records. They keep documentation of lineages, sales and purchases, training routines, pre-fight preps, and the fights themselves. That's how the indictment is able to carry a list of fights as long as your arm, each with dates, weights, locations, and purses. Just look at March 2003, pages 12 to 14, where I count 14 individual bouts; do you remember what you were doing that month?
posted by Nahum Tate at 9:53 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by Nahum Tate at 9:53 PM on July 19, 2007
spock : But I find it funny that some of you same outraged people would be buying tickets to the Roman Colisium this weekend to watch the Lions vs the Christians
I thought I made it clear up above; I like animals more than people. And lions against Christians? If you are trying to make this sound negative, you should work harder.
Like maybe walruses against handicapped kids, or badgers against the blind. Then... maybe.
posted by quin at 9:54 PM on July 19, 2007
I thought I made it clear up above; I like animals more than people. And lions against Christians? If you are trying to make this sound negative, you should work harder.
Like maybe walruses against handicapped kids, or badgers against the blind. Then... maybe.
posted by quin at 9:54 PM on July 19, 2007
Is there any law against having the Vick brothers fight to the death for our amusement? Where could we throw down our bets?
posted by Navelgazer at 9:57 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 9:57 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Vick's treatment of animals is right up there with the big sociopathic behaviours, isn't it? People who torture animals for fun often move on to harming human beings.
I should think we've football to thank for Vick not being involved in a rape or murder case. The guy is broken.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:34 PM on July 19, 2007
I should think we've football to thank for Vick not being involved in a rape or murder case. The guy is broken.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:34 PM on July 19, 2007
jonmc said:
It's just something I noticed, that cruelty to animals seems to bring out the vengeance around here more than anything else.
This is a really interesting phenomenon. It's something I've noticed both in myself and others -- reports of violence against those we consider helpless inspire a violent response, even from people for whom this is out of character.
There's this guttural eye-for-an-eye thing that goes on... presuming he's found guilty, I really want this guy to experience the same thing he's forced the dogs to experience. I kind of want to force empathy on him for not exhibiting that empathy on his own. Even if that involves violence. And I can sit here and analyze it rationally, but I'm actually seething right now, and would frankly like to see Mr. Vick torn apart by feral wolves.
posted by Robson at 10:44 PM on July 19, 2007
It's just something I noticed, that cruelty to animals seems to bring out the vengeance around here more than anything else.
This is a really interesting phenomenon. It's something I've noticed both in myself and others -- reports of violence against those we consider helpless inspire a violent response, even from people for whom this is out of character.
There's this guttural eye-for-an-eye thing that goes on... presuming he's found guilty, I really want this guy to experience the same thing he's forced the dogs to experience. I kind of want to force empathy on him for not exhibiting that empathy on his own. Even if that involves violence. And I can sit here and analyze it rationally, but I'm actually seething right now, and would frankly like to see Mr. Vick torn apart by feral wolves.
posted by Robson at 10:44 PM on July 19, 2007
asrussel, your Grendel looks almost exactly like my Bruce. Beautiful dog ya got there.
I really hope this story doesnt end up being yet another bad mark against such an awesome breed of dog. I sincerely hope this sheds light on the fact that it's the owners who are bad, not the dogs.
People sometimes look at my dog and comment about how they don't like pit bulls, or how they're scared of them, or they think I have him beause I'm trying to be a tough guy. It takes about 2 seconds around Bruce to change their minds. I've owned dogs my whole life, and he's the smartest, sweetest, and most charming dog i've ever had the pleasure of sharing a house with. With the exception of scumbags like this, any Pit owner will tell you the same thing.
I I'm not in the "I like animals more than people" camp. But I do believe that anyone who would mistreat a dog has somehow failed as a human. There's no other animal on earth (including humans) that loves us as unconditionally as dogs do. I know the cat-slaves will disagree, but they're just doing what they're told. Somewhere along the line, in the course of our evolution as a species, we made a pact with the dogs. They've upheld their end of the bargain. We owe it to them to make an example of any person who breaks that pact.
Someone said upstream that Vick should have the dogs he abused set on him. If he is guilty, that would not be an appropriate punishment. Put him in a cage full of chihuahuas. Those evil little bastards would eat him alive.
posted by billyfleetwood at 11:30 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I really hope this story doesnt end up being yet another bad mark against such an awesome breed of dog. I sincerely hope this sheds light on the fact that it's the owners who are bad, not the dogs.
People sometimes look at my dog and comment about how they don't like pit bulls, or how they're scared of them, or they think I have him beause I'm trying to be a tough guy. It takes about 2 seconds around Bruce to change their minds. I've owned dogs my whole life, and he's the smartest, sweetest, and most charming dog i've ever had the pleasure of sharing a house with. With the exception of scumbags like this, any Pit owner will tell you the same thing.
I I'm not in the "I like animals more than people" camp. But I do believe that anyone who would mistreat a dog has somehow failed as a human. There's no other animal on earth (including humans) that loves us as unconditionally as dogs do. I know the cat-slaves will disagree, but they're just doing what they're told. Somewhere along the line, in the course of our evolution as a species, we made a pact with the dogs. They've upheld their end of the bargain. We owe it to them to make an example of any person who breaks that pact.
Someone said upstream that Vick should have the dogs he abused set on him. If he is guilty, that would not be an appropriate punishment. Put him in a cage full of chihuahuas. Those evil little bastards would eat him alive.
posted by billyfleetwood at 11:30 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
I I'm not in the "I like animals more than people" camp. But I do believe that anyone who would mistreat a dog has somehow failed as a human. There's no other animal on earth (including humans) that loves us as unconditionally as dogs do. I know the cat-slaves will disagree, but they're just doing what they're told. Somewhere along the line, in the course of our evolution as a species, we made a pact with the dogs. They've upheld their end of the bargain. We owe it to them to make an example of any person who breaks that pact.
I suspect there are other animals that would respond similarly if socialized for several thousand years. But they sure are cute.
And, as disgusting as this is, someone nailed it earlier when they spoke about the American food industry. Anyone that hasn't watched any of the documentaries on or read literature about slaughterhouses is doing his self either a great disservice or a great favour (depending on whether or not said person wants to know).
Understandably, this position is usually dismissed in a kneejerk manner--the same way I often dismiss it. But it's still entirely valid, even if it makes many of us (again, myself included) look entirely hypocritical.
posted by The God Complex at 12:36 AM on July 20, 2007
I suspect there are other animals that would respond similarly if socialized for several thousand years. But they sure are cute.
And, as disgusting as this is, someone nailed it earlier when they spoke about the American food industry. Anyone that hasn't watched any of the documentaries on or read literature about slaughterhouses is doing his self either a great disservice or a great favour (depending on whether or not said person wants to know).
Understandably, this position is usually dismissed in a kneejerk manner--the same way I often dismiss it. But it's still entirely valid, even if it makes many of us (again, myself included) look entirely hypocritical.
posted by The God Complex at 12:36 AM on July 20, 2007
I can't speak for the rest of Mefi, but personally? I generally like animals more than people.
You certainly don't speak for me.
Jon was bang on that there is a grossly disproportionate response to animal cruelty. There wasn't this kind of response in a Ray Lewis thread back when he was implicated in a murder. There isn't even this level of vehement hostility in threads about people torturing people.
People love animals because is easy. It takes no effort. To love other people, strangers in particular, requires you to address your own role as a member of society in creating who they are. We built Michael Vick. We socialized him. We created a football machine that picks up twelve year olds and starts grooming them for violence. A couple years latter we start pumping them full of drugs. Then if they are lucky the go to college where they get an 'education' in cheating, rule breaking, drug taking and violence. Then if they are even more lucky and their bodies survive and they are the best they can get a big payday for a few years. Then when these maladjusted individuals fuck up we threaten to tear them limb from limb.
Michael Vick needs both some punishment and some help. The gleeful proclamation of threats of violence against him only show how close the inner pit bull is to the surface in all of us. His surfaced and it is a life destroying shame. Others are gleefully threatening to unleash theirs on him because they now feel 'justified'.
We hate ourselves.
posted by srboisvert at 2:08 AM on July 20, 2007 [3 favorites]
You certainly don't speak for me.
Jon was bang on that there is a grossly disproportionate response to animal cruelty. There wasn't this kind of response in a Ray Lewis thread back when he was implicated in a murder. There isn't even this level of vehement hostility in threads about people torturing people.
People love animals because is easy. It takes no effort. To love other people, strangers in particular, requires you to address your own role as a member of society in creating who they are. We built Michael Vick. We socialized him. We created a football machine that picks up twelve year olds and starts grooming them for violence. A couple years latter we start pumping them full of drugs. Then if they are lucky the go to college where they get an 'education' in cheating, rule breaking, drug taking and violence. Then if they are even more lucky and their bodies survive and they are the best they can get a big payday for a few years. Then when these maladjusted individuals fuck up we threaten to tear them limb from limb.
Michael Vick needs both some punishment and some help. The gleeful proclamation of threats of violence against him only show how close the inner pit bull is to the surface in all of us. His surfaced and it is a life destroying shame. Others are gleefully threatening to unleash theirs on him because they now feel 'justified'.
We hate ourselves.
posted by srboisvert at 2:08 AM on July 20, 2007 [3 favorites]
Having animals kill each other for your entertainment. Worth kicking someone's ass. Having others kill animals for your entertaining dinner. Worth bitching at me for mentioning it.
Does eating dog square the circle here? (self link)
posted by rhymer at 2:31 AM on July 20, 2007
Does eating dog square the circle here? (self link)
posted by rhymer at 2:31 AM on July 20, 2007
Srboisvert, if rape, murder and torture were as rare in the news as dog fighting, we'd probably all react more strongly to them than dog fighting. Numbness is not exactly the same thing as a lack of empathy.
Rhymer, I can't really see any moral difference generally between eating dog or cow, but you've got some balls posting that in this thread.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:23 AM on July 20, 2007
Rhymer, I can't really see any moral difference generally between eating dog or cow, but you've got some balls posting that in this thread.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:23 AM on July 20, 2007
A dog that by genetics and enviroment turns nasty and hurt other animals deserves our empathy.
A human that by genetics and enviroment turns nasty and hurt other animals deseves nothing but pain and suffering?
The lie of free will -- eroding empathy since 100 000 BC
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 3:26 AM on July 20, 2007
A human that by genetics and enviroment turns nasty and hurt other animals deseves nothing but pain and suffering?
The lie of free will -- eroding empathy since 100 000 BC
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 3:26 AM on July 20, 2007
Jon was bang on that there is a grossly disproportionate response to animal cruelty.
I'm not too up on the various gradations of cruelty, but it seems to me that what is described in the indictment goes far beyond mere cruelty. This is sadism. This is about getting joy through causing the extreme suffering of other defenseless beings. That it's about dogs (animals which many of us consider members of our families, whether you think it weird or not), adds to it even further, but let's at least be clear what we're talking about.
posted by psmealey at 3:27 AM on July 20, 2007
I'm not too up on the various gradations of cruelty, but it seems to me that what is described in the indictment goes far beyond mere cruelty. This is sadism. This is about getting joy through causing the extreme suffering of other defenseless beings. That it's about dogs (animals which many of us consider members of our families, whether you think it weird or not), adds to it even further, but let's at least be clear what we're talking about.
posted by psmealey at 3:27 AM on July 20, 2007
Thanks for the false (and eponysterical) dichotomy, jenesaisquoi, it was getting rather dull around here. That should liven things up.
posted by psmealey at 3:30 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by psmealey at 3:30 AM on July 20, 2007
People choose to play a rough sport like football -- or rugby, or basketball (a lot tougher than it looks, at the higher end), or soccer or whatever.
I realize I'm kind of preaching to the converted here, and I'd agree that there's a weirdly violent streak that runs all throughout American culture when it comes to American football, but Darwin H. Science, there's a pretty huge qualitative difference here.
As for the Roman Colosseum, someone mentioned the lions and the Christians. That was pretty rare, as were the human on human fights, compared to the majority of blood-sport that went on -- animal vs. animal.
So yeah -- maybe Juvenal was right about me and the rest of us. But two wrongs don't make a right, do they? A person in this day and age who invests their manliness into depravity like this deserves, at least, to be fired from their multi-million dollar job. IMO, they should go to jail as well but Vick has enough money to avoid this. His buddies? It'll be interesting to see who turns on whom, as mentioned.
But honestly, it's not clear to me that Vick's career is over. There are millions of Falcon and Nike dollars behind him -- they're going to do what it takes to "clear" his reputation. And that's also pretty fucking sick.
posted by bardic at 3:32 AM on July 20, 2007
I realize I'm kind of preaching to the converted here, and I'd agree that there's a weirdly violent streak that runs all throughout American culture when it comes to American football, but Darwin H. Science, there's a pretty huge qualitative difference here.
As for the Roman Colosseum, someone mentioned the lions and the Christians. That was pretty rare, as were the human on human fights, compared to the majority of blood-sport that went on -- animal vs. animal.
So yeah -- maybe Juvenal was right about me and the rest of us. But two wrongs don't make a right, do they? A person in this day and age who invests their manliness into depravity like this deserves, at least, to be fired from their multi-million dollar job. IMO, they should go to jail as well but Vick has enough money to avoid this. His buddies? It'll be interesting to see who turns on whom, as mentioned.
But honestly, it's not clear to me that Vick's career is over. There are millions of Falcon and Nike dollars behind him -- they're going to do what it takes to "clear" his reputation. And that's also pretty fucking sick.
posted by bardic at 3:32 AM on July 20, 2007
Well, someone just got himself cut from my Fantasy Football team.
posted by Optamystic at 4:19 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by Optamystic at 4:19 AM on July 20, 2007
What false dichotomy would that be psmealey? I mentioned free will, environment and genetics. What more is there that could conceivably affect behavior. Did I leave out alien interference?
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 4:31 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 4:31 AM on July 20, 2007
What a stupid, worthless barbarian. He should be barred from professional sport and subject to crippling civil lawsuits from the Humane Society et all to put his assets to a better use. I hope that he will spend time in jail being the formerly blinged out forced buttlove bitch to every rough con in there until he can never walk right again. After being violently castrated with a sharpened, salt-covered teaspoon. Maybe his chest cavity should be pumped full of raw sewage to fill the hole where a heart should be...
posted by The Salaryman at 4:37 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by The Salaryman at 4:37 AM on July 20, 2007
What false dichotomy would that be psmealey? I mentioned free will, environment and genetics. What more is there that could conceivably affect behavior.
Where to begin, JeNeSaisQuoi.
Firstly, your premise is that the same people who plead for the suffering of animals are callously indifferent to the plight of their fellow humans. In my experience, this is largely false. The same people who are expressing outrage at the willful torture and killing of these animals, are the very same people who also decry anything close to similar treatment of humans, regardless of how they ended up being subjected to it (whether by accident or incarceration). Obviously, there are people who are indifferent to both, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Secondly, these dogs are selectively bred for aggression towards other dogs and "gameness" in the ring, and are put into rigorous training (for lack of a better word) programs to bring out and foster these traits. It's not, as you casually assert: "genetics and environment". It's specificially directed genetics, and a highly controlled nurturing, in addition to removing any element of choice from the dogs. They have to fight (or be killed). They have no choice in the matter.
There is no proper human analogue for that, at least not since the gladiator days, so the comparison is false.
That you followed it up with a question tells me that you weren't attempting to troll, so you get credit for that, but your comparison was ill-conceived and way off the mark.
posted by psmealey at 5:52 AM on July 20, 2007
Where to begin, JeNeSaisQuoi.
Firstly, your premise is that the same people who plead for the suffering of animals are callously indifferent to the plight of their fellow humans. In my experience, this is largely false. The same people who are expressing outrage at the willful torture and killing of these animals, are the very same people who also decry anything close to similar treatment of humans, regardless of how they ended up being subjected to it (whether by accident or incarceration). Obviously, there are people who are indifferent to both, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Secondly, these dogs are selectively bred for aggression towards other dogs and "gameness" in the ring, and are put into rigorous training (for lack of a better word) programs to bring out and foster these traits. It's not, as you casually assert: "genetics and environment". It's specificially directed genetics, and a highly controlled nurturing, in addition to removing any element of choice from the dogs. They have to fight (or be killed). They have no choice in the matter.
There is no proper human analogue for that, at least not since the gladiator days, so the comparison is false.
That you followed it up with a question tells me that you weren't attempting to troll, so you get credit for that, but your comparison was ill-conceived and way off the mark.
posted by psmealey at 5:52 AM on July 20, 2007
We created a football machine that picks up twelve year olds and starts grooming them for violence.
Oh please. You think that playing football somehow contributed to his dog-fighting endeavours?
posted by WinnipegDragon at 6:56 AM on July 20, 2007
Oh please. You think that playing football somehow contributed to his dog-fighting endeavours?
posted by WinnipegDragon at 6:56 AM on July 20, 2007
The Salaryman: You should seek some help for those anger issues you have. Seriously.
posted by NationalKato at 7:05 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by NationalKato at 7:05 AM on July 20, 2007
He hosed.
Whether he plays football again should be the least of his concerns. He's headed to a nice fed pen.
posted by dios at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2007
Whether he plays football again should be the least of his concerns. He's headed to a nice fed pen.
posted by dios at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2007
That you followed it up with a question tells me that you weren't attempting to troll, so you get credit for that, but your comparison was ill-conceived and way off the mark.
Damn I miss Metafilter.
posted by Pacheco at 7:30 AM on July 20, 2007
Damn I miss Metafilter.
posted by Pacheco at 7:30 AM on July 20, 2007
For them, tough dogs are a symbol of manhood... and by winning, the dogs build up their owners' ego.
So in other words, they all have small dicks.
posted by Totally Zanzibarin' Ya at 7:42 AM on July 20, 2007
So in other words, they all have small dicks.
posted by Totally Zanzibarin' Ya at 7:42 AM on July 20, 2007
And, to produce a derail of my own, am I the only person who objects to a for-profit corporate entity granted special exemptions from the anti-trust laws so it can engage in monopolistic (or at least oligopolistic) practices calling itself a "club"?
I was under the impression that it was only MLB which had special anti-trust exemptions, and the other major sports in the US did not. Is this incorrect?
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:49 AM on July 20, 2007
I was under the impression that it was only MLB which had special anti-trust exemptions, and the other major sports in the US did not. Is this incorrect?
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:49 AM on July 20, 2007
Nike says Mr. Vick's new shoe will not be released "this summer" but are confident his current product line should remain in-store and earning income for they and he.
The Humane Society thinks otherwise.
posted by scheptech at 8:17 AM on July 20, 2007
The Humane Society thinks otherwise.
posted by scheptech at 8:17 AM on July 20, 2007
kittens for breakfast: "Having animals kill each other for your entertainment. Worth kicking someone's ass. Having others kill animals for your entertaining dinner. Worth bitching at me for mentioning it.
Oh, brother."
eponysterical.
posted by graventy at 8:28 AM on July 20, 2007
Oh, brother."
eponysterical.
posted by graventy at 8:28 AM on July 20, 2007
I saw a car accident yesterday where a man in a car eating a sandwich hit a women walking across the street. Instead of making sure she was ok, he first picked up a piece of his sandwich which had falling on the dashboard during the accident and ate this bit. What this said to me was that the driver of the car was more concerned with his sandwich then the fate of his victim. In a society where total disregard for everything but self is the norm I am simply not shocked at the cruelty to fighting dogs. These animals are invested in for this purpose, in the same manner which other people invest in stocks or bonds.
This isn't about machismo or status, in the USA, it’s always about money. I am only speculating of course, but I can imagine that the cruelest fates for the loosing dogs were handed down by their owners as revenge for loosing money.
posted by hexxed at 8:38 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
This isn't about machismo or status, in the USA, it’s always about money. I am only speculating of course, but I can imagine that the cruelest fates for the loosing dogs were handed down by their owners as revenge for loosing money.
posted by hexxed at 8:38 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
spitbull writes "OJ was acquitted. The comparison to OJ is putatively incorrect if VIck is convicted."
OJ lost the civil suit, his pension is safe from that judgement however which is what allows him to look for "the real killer" on the golf courses of america.
posted by Mitheral at 9:08 AM on July 20, 2007
OJ lost the civil suit, his pension is safe from that judgement however which is what allows him to look for "the real killer" on the golf courses of america.
posted by Mitheral at 9:08 AM on July 20, 2007
DevilsAdvocate: I was under the impression that it was only MLB which had special anti-trust exemptions, and the other major sports in the US did not. Is this incorrect?
When the NFL and the AFL merged in '66, Congress passed a law that allowed the merger to proceed without antitrust sanctions.
The issue has been revisited more recently, with the USFL suing the NFL in the 80s in an antitrust suit that claimed that the NFL's monopoly killed the USFL. The courts found that though the NFL had engaged in monopolistic practices, the USFL was responsible for its own demise.
There has also been a lot of agitating recently because of the TV contracts negotiated by the NFL, for instance the unavailability of NFL Sunday Ticket to anyone who does not have a DirectTV contract, which is not even an option for many people in the U.S. simply because there's no place to put the dish. (Meanwhile, the same TV service is available on a nonexclusive basis to a variety of cable carriers in Canada.)
posted by camcgee at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2007
When the NFL and the AFL merged in '66, Congress passed a law that allowed the merger to proceed without antitrust sanctions.
The issue has been revisited more recently, with the USFL suing the NFL in the 80s in an antitrust suit that claimed that the NFL's monopoly killed the USFL. The courts found that though the NFL had engaged in monopolistic practices, the USFL was responsible for its own demise.
There has also been a lot of agitating recently because of the TV contracts negotiated by the NFL, for instance the unavailability of NFL Sunday Ticket to anyone who does not have a DirectTV contract, which is not even an option for many people in the U.S. simply because there's no place to put the dish. (Meanwhile, the same TV service is available on a nonexclusive basis to a variety of cable carriers in Canada.)
posted by camcgee at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2007
On the derail re: dogfighting vs. meat eating: It is more than somewhat disingenuous to compare what amounts to death by torture to the relatively humane death found in most slaughterhouses. While there is no denying that the factory farm system that agribusiness has evolved is improper (not to mention unhealthy), and inhumane, the simple fact of meat eating is not, IMO, comperable to dogfighting, cockfighting, or bull fighting. In the latter pain and suffering are the goal, in the former they are minimized.
Were you to visit or work at a slaughterhouse, I suspect you would not be able to draw this distinction. I agree that the simple fact of meat eating isn't comparable to dogfighting, but there's no real difference between how Vick killed the dogs he couldn't use anymore and how cows are killed in slaughterhouses. There's plenty of pain and suffering in both cases.
And does the goal really matter? Is it better to kill someone because you want his money than because you simply want to kill him?
The lie of free will -- eroding empathy since 100 000 BC
Presumably, you were fated to post that statement?
posted by me & my monkey at 9:54 AM on July 20, 2007
Were you to visit or work at a slaughterhouse, I suspect you would not be able to draw this distinction. I agree that the simple fact of meat eating isn't comparable to dogfighting, but there's no real difference between how Vick killed the dogs he couldn't use anymore and how cows are killed in slaughterhouses. There's plenty of pain and suffering in both cases.
And does the goal really matter? Is it better to kill someone because you want his money than because you simply want to kill him?
The lie of free will -- eroding empathy since 100 000 BC
Presumably, you were fated to post that statement?
posted by me & my monkey at 9:54 AM on July 20, 2007
I agree that the simple fact of meat eating isn't comparable to dogfighting, but there's no real difference between how Vick killed the dogs he couldn't use anymore and how cows are killed in slaughterhouses. There's plenty of pain and suffering in both cases.
True, but presumably even some of McDonald's beef cattle get a few months or years of green grass and sunshine. The dogs live lives that are comprised of nothing but pain and suffering. Bad enough what Vick & Co. did to the dogs "he couldn't use", a worse fate awaited those he could.
posted by psmealey at 9:58 AM on July 20, 2007
True, but presumably even some of McDonald's beef cattle get a few months or years of green grass and sunshine. The dogs live lives that are comprised of nothing but pain and suffering. Bad enough what Vick & Co. did to the dogs "he couldn't use", a worse fate awaited those he could.
posted by psmealey at 9:58 AM on July 20, 2007
True, but presumably even some of McDonald's beef cattle get a few months or years of green grass and sunshine. The dogs live lives that are comprised of nothing but pain and suffering.
The sheer scale of animal cruelty involved in factory farming dwarfs everything done by dogfighters. So, why is everyone so outraged over the latter, but complacent about the former?
posted by me & my monkey at 10:27 AM on July 20, 2007
The sheer scale of animal cruelty involved in factory farming dwarfs everything done by dogfighters. So, why is everyone so outraged over the latter, but complacent about the former?
posted by me & my monkey at 10:27 AM on July 20, 2007
But that's typical tiresome ALL OUTRAGES MUST ALWAYS NEVER BE EQUAL bullshit no? Or, to put it another way:
WHY ARE PEOPLE SO UPSET ABOUT IRAQ WHEN MILLIONS DIED AT AUSCHWITZ??
It's appropriate to be outraged by both. What some outrages move people and others do not, I cannot say.
My intention was not to start outrage filter with this post, as it does always follow this same pattern as I have illustrated before. Mostly, I posted it because I had heard some surprise about this story, which having lived in some sketchy parts of Chicago and elsewhere, I have seen that this kind of thing goes on with relative regularity today.
posted by psmealey at 10:46 AM on July 20, 2007
WHY ARE PEOPLE SO UPSET ABOUT IRAQ WHEN MILLIONS DIED AT AUSCHWITZ??
It's appropriate to be outraged by both. What some outrages move people and others do not, I cannot say.
My intention was not to start outrage filter with this post, as it does always follow this same pattern as I have illustrated before. Mostly, I posted it because I had heard some surprise about this story, which having lived in some sketchy parts of Chicago and elsewhere, I have seen that this kind of thing goes on with relative regularity today.
posted by psmealey at 10:46 AM on July 20, 2007
But that's typical tiresome ALL OUTRAGES MUST ALWAYS NEVER BE EQUAL bullshit no?
No, because many people don't even see one of these things as an outrage at all.
WHY ARE PEOPLE SO UPSET ABOUT IRAQ WHEN MILLIONS DIED AT AUSCHWITZ??
I submit that if Auschwitz were still in operation, we would in fact be less outraged about, say, Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.
It's appropriate to be outraged by both.
But people are not. That's my point. If you're going to post something about a specific act of animal cruelty, you should expect that people might point out exponentially larger acts of animal cruelty going on right now. Why shouldn't I point out the arguable cognitive dissonance of people saying Vick should be torn apart himself for what he did, while they dig into a delicious steak.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:03 AM on July 20, 2007
No, because many people don't even see one of these things as an outrage at all.
WHY ARE PEOPLE SO UPSET ABOUT IRAQ WHEN MILLIONS DIED AT AUSCHWITZ??
I submit that if Auschwitz were still in operation, we would in fact be less outraged about, say, Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.
It's appropriate to be outraged by both.
But people are not. That's my point. If you're going to post something about a specific act of animal cruelty, you should expect that people might point out exponentially larger acts of animal cruelty going on right now. Why shouldn't I point out the arguable cognitive dissonance of people saying Vick should be torn apart himself for what he did, while they dig into a delicious steak.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:03 AM on July 20, 2007
But people are not. That's my point. If you're going to post something about a specific act of animal cruelty, you should expect that people might point out exponentially larger acts of animal cruelty going on right now. Why shouldn't I point out the arguable cognitive dissonance of people saying Vick should be torn apart himself for what he did, while they dig into a delicious steak. Bold emphasis mine.
Mainly because that's not what this discussion is about. There have been discussions about that aspect of animal cruelty. This isn't one of them. People are in fact capable of compassion for both animals and humans, but it's not appropriate to bring all of that stuff up in this particular, specific thread right here, which is about Michael Prick and dogfighting.
posted by vito90 at 11:22 AM on July 20, 2007
Mainly because that's not what this discussion is about. There have been discussions about that aspect of animal cruelty. This isn't one of them. People are in fact capable of compassion for both animals and humans, but it's not appropriate to bring all of that stuff up in this particular, specific thread right here, which is about Michael Prick and dogfighting.
posted by vito90 at 11:22 AM on July 20, 2007
Firstly, your premise is that the same people who plead for the suffering of animals are callously indifferent to the plight of their fellow humans.
Really? I’ve learned a lot about myself today, thank you psmealey.
I though I was suggesting that it seems that the limit of compassion of most, otherwise decent, people ends with physical (or what they regard as physical) impairments. A mental impairment such an inability to empathize gains the one afflicted no sympathy which is kind of ironic. I also found it interesting that people don’t make the same harsh judgment about animals anymore, even though they once did. I also argued that difference manifest itself because of the concept of free will which has very little, besides it being intuitively appealing, going for it.
Don’t let me stop you form demolishing that straw man though, it looks like you have it pinned down – go for the kill! It’s not like you have a choice…
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 11:22 AM on July 20, 2007
Really? I’ve learned a lot about myself today, thank you psmealey.
I though I was suggesting that it seems that the limit of compassion of most, otherwise decent, people ends with physical (or what they regard as physical) impairments. A mental impairment such an inability to empathize gains the one afflicted no sympathy which is kind of ironic. I also found it interesting that people don’t make the same harsh judgment about animals anymore, even though they once did. I also argued that difference manifest itself because of the concept of free will which has very little, besides it being intuitively appealing, going for it.
Don’t let me stop you form demolishing that straw man though, it looks like you have it pinned down – go for the kill! It’s not like you have a choice…
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 11:22 AM on July 20, 2007
I used to be into dogfighting. I’d go out Sundays to the park with my weinerdog dressed in a leather helmet, goggles and a white scarf, put him in a small doggie sized Sopwith Camel and we’d try to take down the pitbull in the Tri-wing Fokker.
What Vick is into is sick.
There is a difference between wonton cruelty - abusing an animal for pleasure and killing and eating an animal for nourishment. There may be some overlap in terms of causing an animal pain, but it’s pretty clear one is intentional for the derivation of pleasure, that alone is repulsive. I’ve done some pretty brutal and violent things, but I’ve never hurt a soul for any reason other than achieving a given objective (e.g. to stop a fight). Violence is never self-justifying. Those who see it as such are sadists or worse.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:46 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
What Vick is into is sick.
There is a difference between wonton cruelty - abusing an animal for pleasure and killing and eating an animal for nourishment. There may be some overlap in terms of causing an animal pain, but it’s pretty clear one is intentional for the derivation of pleasure, that alone is repulsive. I’ve done some pretty brutal and violent things, but I’ve never hurt a soul for any reason other than achieving a given objective (e.g. to stop a fight). Violence is never self-justifying. Those who see it as such are sadists or worse.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:46 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
I also argued that...
You argued nothing. Beyond the incredibly stilted prose you just wrote, all you did was throw up a couple of shallow observations and tried to wrap it up in a pithy little (quasi) aphorism. That's not an argument. What it is, to use a forensics technical term you might have some familiarity with, is bullshit.
Ce n'est pas que tu ne sais quoi, ce que ton nom veut dire; c'est que tu ne sais rien.
posted by psmealey at 11:50 AM on July 20, 2007
You argued nothing. Beyond the incredibly stilted prose you just wrote, all you did was throw up a couple of shallow observations and tried to wrap it up in a pithy little (quasi) aphorism. That's not an argument. What it is, to use a forensics technical term you might have some familiarity with, is bullshit.
Ce n'est pas que tu ne sais quoi, ce que ton nom veut dire; c'est que tu ne sais rien.
posted by psmealey at 11:50 AM on July 20, 2007
You make a good point psmealey: A man can be sufficiently abhorrent to your sense common decency to deserve a prolonged and painful death. I guess what I was missing was an example to drive the point home. Thanks for providing just that. I’m in your debt.
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by JeNeSaisQuoi at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2007
Pacheco: Thank you for that link. I am glad to know that my original impulse to find Big Boi's love of dogs was correct.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:57 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:57 PM on July 20, 2007
"to find Big Boi's love of dogs neat" is what I meant.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:58 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:58 PM on July 20, 2007
Also, from Sportsfiler:
Vick to stay in the game.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:59 PM on July 20, 2007
Vick to stay in the game.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:59 PM on July 20, 2007
I just read that they are trying to convince him to voluntarily take a leave of absence. That strikes me as horrible PR on the NFL's part. They don't have the backbone to boot him, but they know they really probably should. So they split the difference and ask him to leave? Dumb.
posted by dios at 1:29 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by dios at 1:29 PM on July 20, 2007
This story's got everything except sex: violence, death, torture, and now something even uglier, corporate greed and cowardice. Nike are pleased to continue selling his existing product line and the NFL lack the courage to take a stand themselves, I guess it just hurts too much to say goodbye to all that money. I wonder if these idiots realize how bad this is going to get as legal proceedings ramp up?
posted by scheptech at 1:35 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by scheptech at 1:35 PM on July 20, 2007
ps - thank you. I was going to put this up here back in April when it all started, but I passed, as I did not want to get a rep for setting off firestorms.
It's funny to read the arguments between what's philosophically, politically and realistically correct to folks. This is appropriately the outrage of the month. Hopefully the year.
I'd like to see continued attention to this issue. I'd like to see people coming out in favor of dogfighting so we can see who they are, follow them and get them arrested.
I also think that cooler heads will prevail when it comes time to open up the NFL season. I am an avid football fan. I do not, for a minute, think there is any way Mike Vick can play football this year. The league's image cannot take it. The league's pocketbook cannot take it. There will be massive demonstrations and boycotts. As the debate above laments at times, it is money that matters. The liability will be too huge.
I'm sure someone mentioned this above somewhere, but if not here goes: the DOJ does not bring charges it thinks it cannot prove. Martha was convicted on less evidence. Scooter was convicted on less. Mike Vick does not have the power to beat this rap. It will not be too long before they figure it out at NFL headquarters.
Why can't they all be Tom Brady?
posted by valentinepig at 3:27 PM on July 20, 2007
It's funny to read the arguments between what's philosophically, politically and realistically correct to folks. This is appropriately the outrage of the month. Hopefully the year.
I'd like to see continued attention to this issue. I'd like to see people coming out in favor of dogfighting so we can see who they are, follow them and get them arrested.
I also think that cooler heads will prevail when it comes time to open up the NFL season. I am an avid football fan. I do not, for a minute, think there is any way Mike Vick can play football this year. The league's image cannot take it. The league's pocketbook cannot take it. There will be massive demonstrations and boycotts. As the debate above laments at times, it is money that matters. The liability will be too huge.
I'm sure someone mentioned this above somewhere, but if not here goes: the DOJ does not bring charges it thinks it cannot prove. Martha was convicted on less evidence. Scooter was convicted on less. Mike Vick does not have the power to beat this rap. It will not be too long before they figure it out at NFL headquarters.
Why can't they all be Tom Brady?
posted by valentinepig at 3:27 PM on July 20, 2007
I'm straight, and I'd sleep with Tom Brady. He's that dreamy.
posted by bardic at 3:56 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by bardic at 3:56 PM on July 20, 2007
Vick's career is over, there is absolutely no way he will be allowed to play. At this point the NFL is trying to figure out the cheapest way to get rid of him, which may be convincing him that voluntarily quitting is better for his image. Vick has nothing to really lose at this point, this is an interesting test of game theory.
posted by geoff. at 7:54 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by geoff. at 7:54 PM on July 20, 2007
Vick and Nike need to donate 250 million dollars to animal shelters now. Srsly.
posted by vronsky at 8:39 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by vronsky at 8:39 PM on July 20, 2007
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posted by psmealey at 5:12 PM on July 19, 2007