Klutzo dead?

November 17, 2007 4:59 PM

Klutzo...is...dead! Klutzo had been talked about before. He is gone now (video link has short crappy commercial). Prior context.
posted by zerobyproxy (72 comments total)

Time's next person of the year is going to be the taser.
posted by stavrogin at 5:02 PM on November 17, 2007 [3 favorites]

Alright. That's it. They've shown us they can't be trusted. They've fucked up too many times. They have to turn in their fucking tasers right fucking now. Seriously.
posted by tehloki at 5:10 PM on November 17, 2007

Pedophile clown tasered to death... only in America, folks.
posted by Krrrlson at 5:11 PM on November 17, 2007 [7 favorites]

Another fucking taser death.

tehloki, they'll never give up their tasers, dude. This shit will get worse and worse.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 5:13 PM on November 17, 2007

pedo clown tasered to death while being fucked by a horse.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 5:14 PM on November 17, 2007

.
posted by CaptMcalister at 5:18 PM on November 17, 2007

Keep in mind the number of deaths in tasering incidences is incredibly small compared to how many times everything goes like it should. I think tasers are good overall because they reduce the risk of injury to both suspects and police.

That being said, there's a real problem with some officers whipping out the taser on a whim, like the incident in Florida or the repeated tasering of cuffed suspect that happened around here not too long ago. There's stupid-asses in every field, it's just that these stupid-asses have the authority to use force on others.

Hard to tell whether the tasering was warranted here or not though.
posted by puke & cry at 5:21 PM on November 17, 2007

I'm always happy to see one fewer pedo clown out roaming the streets, but the cops are not a judge and jury. They just can't keep electrocuting people to death on a whim.

Tasers should be banned.
posted by MythMaker at 5:33 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

How about the officer that "accidentally" tasered an innocent restaurant owner in the head in a failed prank?
posted by mikesch at 5:36 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

They weren't trying to kill him MythMaker, so you're judge/jury thing doesn't make sense. The people that die from tasering always have medical conditions, apparently this guy did to.

And wow mikesch, that cop is not only a dipshit, he's also an asshole.
posted by puke & cry at 5:45 PM on November 17, 2007

I don't think tasering is the problem...it's the fact that police officers are trained to subdue people face-down on the ground, and then get as much weight on that person's torso to immobilize them.

The person is usually hyperventilating, or breathing hard, and if they have a cop or cops dogpiling on them, they just can't get enough air and suffocate to death.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:46 PM on November 17, 2007

I keep picturing him getting tazered in jail while wearing his clown makeup. But I guess they only let you wear that stuff in the pokey in DC Comics.
posted by sourwookie at 5:49 PM on November 17, 2007

I'm thinking we should find a way to harness this taser power technology for good.

There's a really kickass barbecue grill just waiting to be invented, people.
posted by miss lynnster at 5:56 PM on November 17, 2007

Just found a link to his Amazon profile. Creepy reviews. Creepy film titles. Creepier tags.
posted by zerobyproxy at 5:56 PM on November 17, 2007

Oh also, you need to add some tags, zerobyproxy.
posted by puke & cry at 5:59 PM on November 17, 2007

Set tasers to not at all stunned.
posted by Reggie Digest at 6:01 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

♫ Send in the clowns ♫
posted by porn in the woods at 6:07 PM on November 17, 2007

puke & cry -- I thought that I had them, but must have lost them in an edit. They are there now. Thanks.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2007

Excellent use of the "deadpedophileclown" tag.
posted by puke & cry at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2007

I think tasers are good overall because they reduce the risk of injury to both suspects and police.

Yeah, because beng subjected to incredible fucking pain is something a suspect always looks forward to.
posted by JHarris at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

A pedophile clown is tasered to death, and you guys are rooting for the clown. WHO'S THE CLOWN NOW???
posted by dhammond at 6:09 PM on November 17, 2007

Don't taze me bro!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:10 PM on November 17, 2007

Don't taze me bro!

You just had to, didn't you?
posted by katillathehun at 6:22 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

Well, no, item. If tasers were a drug, the FDA wouldn't pull them for another five years.
posted by Reggie Digest at 6:33 PM on November 17, 2007

I think the major thing that concerns me about tasers is they are treated as a non lethal use of force, they are not thought of as an extreme measure, thus the prevalence of use goes way up. Tasers are seen as an automatic good tool to use, not a step to take if absolutely necessary, but a step to take if someone is not acting 100% the way some police want them to act. Hell there was just a story about a fella who passed out in a diabetic coma on a buss who was tasered because the police found thought he was being deliberately unresponsive.
In this era where water boarding is seen as justified it is not really surprising that authorities are turning towards more, increased use of extreme measures of perceived non-lethal means of control. Pain no longer counts, only acquiescence.
Cops are seeing people not as those there are suppose to protect and respect, but as potential sources of danger and problems. An antagonistic mindset perpetrates increased incidents of conflict, and when that happens the well organized (increasingly paramilitary), well armed side always wins.
posted by edgeways at 6:37 PM on November 17, 2007 [8 favorites]

Well put, edgeways.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:01 PM on November 17, 2007

I can't get over the fact, guns are not allowed in the inner areas of jail facilities, yet tasers are.
posted by thomcatspike at 7:14 PM on November 17, 2007

I think the other problem is that cops are taught that tasers are non lethal force and they essentially are for healthy people, but far more people have otherwise minor health/heart problems that could kill them if they were tasered. There also seems to be this non responsibility with tasers, like if someone dies after you taser them it was X health problem, not the taser that did it because tasers aren't lethal force.
posted by whoaali at 7:18 PM on November 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Tasering is probably as popular as it is because it doesn't look quite as bad as beating a perp into submission with batons.
posted by Reggie Digest at 7:26 PM on November 17, 2007

They really should just stick to pepper spray.
posted by puke & cry at 7:27 PM on November 17, 2007

stick to pepper spray.
Too cheap!
posted by thomcatspike at 7:56 PM on November 17, 2007

What if a taser's shock went through both sides of the taser, thus shocking both parties? This would underscore that it should be used only to save the life of the cop or the suspect.

[NOT SERIOUSIST]
posted by roll truck roll at 8:01 PM on November 17, 2007

I'm not opposed to cops having Tasers, I'm opposed to them using them in non life-threatening situations. I'd rather they have Tasers then guns, but I'd rather that they only use one where they'd use a gun

There was a video a while back where a cop Tasered a young woman in order to get her out a car (she had a suspended license), I guess he was too lazy and/or impatient to wait for the backup he would need to remove her physically. Of course we had one mefite saying he got a little thrill out of seeing the "disrespectful" girl tasered and that it was fine.

Like anything, the problem isn't the device but how it's used, by lazy police who think someone else's searing pain is less of a problem then their own impatience.
posted by delmoi at 8:27 PM on November 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

I'd like to see statistics showing that the actual rate of folks gettin' shot by police officers drops when tasers are introduced into a particular district. Secondarily, the rate of police injury by suspects/perps/whatever dropping, which is important, though not as much as the former.

If I don't see evidence of either of these things, the taser is only a boon to torture-prone bullies and cowardly, effort-avoidant pigs.
posted by adipocere at 9:36 PM on November 17, 2007

Tasering is probably as popular as it is because it doesn't look quite as bad as beating a perp into submission with batons.

This may be right. But with all of the hype and attention that tasering has been receiving of late, especially in the cases where the perp or suspect is in just the kind of mental or physical condition that one would expect precludes the use of this method, we might expect its use to become just as stigmatized.

The Andrew Meyer case is an unusual one given the instances I've been introduced to here and elsewhere. He may or may not have acted in a way that warranted a certain amount of force. People are outraged because it seems, at least to some viewers of the incident, that his actions didn't warrant the use of a taser. This widely publicized event really brought the use of tasers to the forefront of public discussion.

However, and unlike Meier’s situation, there are several cases in which a suspect is harmed or subdued, sometimes in a fatal way, by the use of a taser. And often these cases are ones where a suspect has conditions, mental or physical, that appear to third parties as good reasons why a taser should not have been used. It’s the prevalence of these cases, I think, that warrants an intensive reconsideration of the use of the device.
posted by inconsequentialist at 10:25 PM on November 17, 2007

You're right, adipocere. The taser is just another tool of the "torture-prone" "pigs" to assault citizens. And oppress them, of course.

Really, pull your head out of your ass and try to think outside your quaint anti-authority world view. If you don't think tasers serve a real police function the majority of the time, you're an anti-"pig" idiot that I won't bother giving statistics to. Like you'd magically change your mind in the face of facts. Fuck off.
posted by puke & cry at 10:28 PM on November 17, 2007

Puke & Cry, I asked for statistics because I see a lot of people assuming that, hey, tasers are wonderful, and other people assuming that they are automatically bad. If I didn't want the stats, I wouldn't have asked for them. Without some real world numbers, all people are going on are their general feelings about them as devices.

You can read about police officers tasering people, then tasering them when they can't get up. Tasering people in handcuffs in the back of a police car. Sure seems like a great way to torment people.

You can read about police officers tasering people who are asleep or in a coma. This is apparently more expedient than, say, poking them with a stick to see if they are awake. Sure seems like a lack of effort.

But I went ahead and wondered about the numbers precisely because I'd like to see if there was, in fact, some kind of net benefit, rather than assuming one way or another. So save your insults.
posted by adipocere at 11:33 PM on November 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Hey, puke & cry, relax. Again, this is one of the points I was trying to make in the last taser thread, but it seems like there's a kind of identification with the police or identification with the victim going on with these tasering deaths. For you, the identification is clearly with the cops. Most of us, however, have had encounters with the police that make us realize that the police need to be closely, and carefully regulated and controlled.

As for me, like I said, one fewer pedo clown in the world probably makes the world a better place. But if we as a society want that pedo clown dead, then the *only* context in which it is legal and appropriate is being convicted by a jury of his peers (clowns?) and having the chance to appeal the decision, and then being executed by the state.

When cops go to the taser first thing, whether it is in a case like this, or if it is mistaken identity, or whatever, as opposed to using *actually* non-lethal techniques, then they have a chance, a really quite significant chance, of bringing about a death.

There have been hundreds of deaths associated with tasers, this is *not* a non-lethal weapon. Less lethal than a bullet, sure, but hundreds of deaths is not "non-lethal."

So, because these trigger happy cops seem to be using an occasionally lethal weapon more and more and more, then there is a greater chance this weapon could be used on any one of us.

Tasers should be taken off the maket.

And if left on the market, they ought to be used *only* where a bullet would have been used otherwise. Period.
posted by MythMaker at 11:33 PM on November 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

Adipocere, I linked to some statistics in the last thread here and here.

There have been 167 deaths due to tasers (actually, more now with Klutzo and the Polish guy at the airport, etc.)
posted by MythMaker at 11:36 PM on November 17, 2007

For you, the identification is clearly with the cops. Most of us, however, have had encounters with the police that make us realize that the police need to be closely, and carefully regulated and controlled.

I like how your characterization of me makes it seem like I don't think police should be closely regulated.

But if we as a society want that pedo clown dead, then the *only* context in which it is legal and appropriate is being convicted by a jury of his peers (clowns?) and having the chance to appeal the decision, and then being executed by the state.

I don't see how my initial reaction was inappropriate seeing as you still think that the officers involved had the intent to kill this guy.

Less lethal than a bullet, sure, but hundreds of deaths is not "non-lethal."

They're actually referred to as "Less-lethal weapons". You might want to keep up with the terminology if you want to argue a valid point.
posted by puke & cry at 11:52 PM on November 17, 2007

Yeah, Mythmaker, I saw those stats. They aren't the stats for which I was looking. I'm looking to see if:

1) The introduction of tasers have reduced the number of people shot by the police, that is, they're making a good case for a substitution for guns - if they are being used as good replacement in the force spectrum.

2) The introduction of tasers have reduced incidents of injury/death of police officers by, say, the folks who are getting tased.

If those numbers are large enough, then 167 deaths (and how many cases of possibly permanent damage) might be an unfortunate but acceptable tradeoff to dead cops and civilians. If those numbers are not large, then tasers would not be "worth it" and would fall into the aforementioned lazy (a substitution for things like decent holds) and cruel (we don't really need to taser people in handcuffs in the back of a car). Then what we get is "less lethal but so prone to abuse in realworld situations that we should remove them." I'm just interested in some numbers so I can make an informed decision, you know?
posted by adipocere at 11:57 PM on November 17, 2007

Whether or not they had the intention to kill the guy or not, they *did* kill the guy. That makes it manslaughter. It is not, nor should it be acceptable. They ought to be tried and imprisoned for manslaughter.
posted by MythMaker at 12:00 AM on November 18, 2007

And as for whether or not they are non-lethal or less lethal:


google: "taser non-lethal": 263,000 hits
google: "taser less lethal": 154,000 hits

Clearly, the broadest perception is that they are seen as "non-lethal."

Here are 28 pages on taser's own webpage where they refer to it as "non-lethal"
posted by MythMaker at 12:05 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

Yeah, they *did* kill the guy. I guess you're backing away from your initial comment that the officers were "a judge and jury"?

And again, your statement "But if we as a society want that pedo clown dead, then the *only* context in which it is legal and appropriate is being convicted by a jury of his peers (clowns?) and having the chance to appeal the decision, and then being executed by the state."

Makes it seem like the officers involved had the intent to pass judgment and execute this guy.
posted by puke & cry at 12:08 AM on November 18, 2007

And i don't give a flying fuck what google says or what the taser website says so you can take your "gotcha!" moment and shove it up your ass. I know what law enforcement calls it, and that's less than lethal.
posted by puke & cry at 12:14 AM on November 18, 2007

puke & cry typed "If you don't think tasers serve a real police function the majority of the time, you're an anti-'pig' idiot that I won't bother giving statistics to. Like you'd magically change your mind in the face of facts. Fuck off."

puke & cry typed "And i don't give a flying fuck what google says or what the taser website says so you can take your 'gotcha!' moment and shove it up your ass. "

I'm glad you hate it when other people cite sources just as much as you hate citinmg sources.
posted by roll truck roll at 12:42 AM on November 18, 2007

Y'know, weapons-related threads, perhaps unsurprisingly, bring out some of the most verbally violent behavior in certain MeFiers. The "fuck you"s and "shove-it-up-yer-ass"es are flyihng in this thread and the war video-website thread going on at the moment. You boys should put down your computers for awhile, go outside and play nice!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 12:59 AM on November 18, 2007

Tasers don't kill people. Every taser-related death has been caused by some medical problem, not the taser.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 3:56 AM on November 18, 2007

Every bullet related death has been caused by some medical problem, such as perforated organs, lead poisoning or previously undiagnosed hemophilia.
posted by stavrogin at 4:14 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Tasers don't kill people. Every taser-related death has been caused by some medical problem, not the taser.

That's a joke, right? Please tell me that's a joke.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:04 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

That's a joke, right? Please tell me that's a joke.

No it isn't. Show me a single autopsy report where the taser was listed as the cause of death. There are none.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 6:07 AM on November 18, 2007

I have just gotten out of bed and discovered my deadpedophileclown thread taken down the badtasergoodtaser track! What a difference a day makes.

No one caught my "Linguo dead" joke either. I guess I buried it too deep.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:55 AM on November 18, 2007

Watching old episodes of Cops, I wonder if police even bother with the old-school tacking and subduing perps with their bare hands anymore.

I don't watch it when it comes on new, but is it mostly just cops tasering people now?
posted by fructose at 7:16 AM on November 18, 2007

The terrorists hate us for our freedom to tase pedophile clowns.
posted by tommasz at 7:31 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

puke & cry's comments are eponysterical.
posted by bruce at 9:03 AM on November 18, 2007

Here's a buffet of links on TASER safety or lack thereof:

TASER News Watch
The TASER Blog
TASER research papers
The TASER Article Collection
Wake Forest Taser Study Ignores the Elephant in the Room, 294 Dead and Counting

Sorting out a workable, effective & safe policy is left as an exercise for the student.
posted by scalefree at 10:33 AM on November 18, 2007

Oh, one last link that missed the cut: 10 Taser tips you've never heard before.
posted by scalefree at 10:35 AM on November 18, 2007

puke & cry - please relax. No one has come into this discussion and called you an asshole or told you fuck you. If you look at the comments, you will observe that the vitriol comes *from* you. *you* are the one lowering the tone of this discussion.

But, you have misunderstood my intention with bringing up the "judge and jury" reference. You ever watch law&order? There are 2 parts of the criminal justice system and all?

Well, the point is that within our legal system, the police arrest people, and a judge and jury determine whether or not to end their lives.

With certain police using a weapon willy-nilly that has killed hundreds of people, they are overstepping their authority. It's like how there's a huge internal investigation every time a cop shoots someone. There needs to be the same difficulties every time a cop tasers someone. It is a very risky procedure and ought to be used rarely. As we are seeing, it is not being used rarely, it is being used to try to wake up people in diabetic comas on busses.

Thus, these police officers, in using a device that *has killed* in the past and *will kill* again in the future, are overstepping their bounds. Whether or not they intended their actions to end in a death, it *did* end in a death, and they ought to be tried for manslaughter.
posted by MythMaker at 10:50 AM on November 18, 2007

Additionally, puke & cry, as for the "non lethal" vs. "less lethal" debate, I think the relevant question is "what does the manufacturer call it?". As I showed with 28 hits, the manufacturer refers to it as non-lethal.
posted by MythMaker at 10:52 AM on November 18, 2007

C17H19NO3: So, let's say I just tasered you over and over again for 2 days straight. If you died, it would be due to some pre-existing medical condition, right?
posted by tehloki at 1:03 PM on November 18, 2007

Bullets don't kill people. Any deaths are due to the pre-existing medical condition of not being made of metal.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:41 PM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

C17H19NO3: So, let's say I just tasered you over and over again for 2 days straight. If you died, it would be due to some pre-existing medical condition, right?

That is ill logic and so off-track I don't even know how to respond to that.

Like I said, show me an autopsy report that shows the taser as a cause of death.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 1:51 PM on November 18, 2007

Like I said, show me an autopsy report that shows the taser as a cause of death.

That reasoning doesn't really make sense either. That's like saying someone didn't die from AIDS they died from pneumonia. If someone has an otherwise minor minor heart problem, that under normal circumstances would never kill them, and then they receive god knows how many volts of electricity through their body from a tazer and die, the tazer killed them not the heart defect.
posted by whoaali at 2:23 PM on November 18, 2007

I got this medical problem, see my nasal passages are pretty constricted because as a kid I had cleft palate surgery and to fix it they sewed the roof of my mouth shut taking up a good % of my nasal cavity. Now, whenever I have a severe stuffy nose because of a cold I literally can not breath out of my nose. If someone held me down and taped my moth shut when I had a cold I would die of suffocation.

The person who did this to me would be guilty of some form of homicide, even if they did not intend to kill me. The freaking autopsy wouldn't say I died of duct tape use, it would say I died of suffocation. The autopsy reports in the case of tasers may well not say TASER TASER TASER!!! but could very well reflect that a form of electrical shock was contributory to the cause of death. The police usually do not set out to kill someone when they use a taser, but the capacity to do so is there, and they should DAMN WELL be aware of it and take responsibility for it when it happens. Equivocating that "taser" might not show up on a coroner's report is disingenuous to the broader issue. SO FUCKING WHAT if they have a medical condition? Does their live have any less meaning because of it? Should a enforcer of the law disregard the possibility and taser people for being unresponsive, or anything other than protecting his/her life or safety? We are seeing here, and in a rash of other cases the use of potentially deadly force in numerous incidents simply as a means of control. Tasers should not be used as a quick means of control and yeah they cause people to die and are damn painful.
posted by edgeways at 2:57 PM on November 18, 2007

People have died after being sprayed with Oleoresin Capsicum, yet nobody is screaming about that and trying to take our OC away from us.

You can die from a well-placed punch. You can die from a strike with a baton. The real reason why people hate the taser so much is because they don't have the ability to fight through--they don't have control.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 3:02 PM on November 18, 2007

No, the problem with tazers is that they are being called "non lethal" force when they simply are not, they are less lethal. Cops are using them like they are non lethal with the assumption that they have a much wider latitude if they make a mistake and that it really isn't the escalation of force that it is. Also, since tazer don't really leave a mark, it looks a lot better to tazer someone than punch them several times or hit them with a baton. I'm all for cops having tazers, they are an excellent alternative to guns, but they are being used in situations that simply don't require that level of force.
posted by whoaali at 3:12 PM on November 18, 2007

How about the officer that "accidentally" tasered an innocent restaurant owner in the head in a failed prank?

Wow, the guy went into convulsions and bit off a piece of his own tongue. That's some prank.
posted by homunculus at 3:22 PM on November 18, 2007

the *only* context in which it is legal and appropriate is being convicted by a jury of his peers (clowns?)

Christian pedophile clowns.
posted by martinrebas at 3:56 PM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

I don't want to take sides on the taser debate here, but I do find myself wondering if this death was as accidental as it sounds.

This wasn't a young man, whom one would expect to cause behavioral problems. The only explanation given was that he had been behaving erratically. They were planning to send him to a hospital when, for some reason, he struggled. (I can't think why he wouldn't welcome the change of venue after having been imprisoned for almost two months.) Add to that the heinous nature of the crimes for which he stands accused, and I can't help but wonder if anyone was a bit overzealous when it came to "restraining" him.
posted by misha at 8:20 PM on November 18, 2007

Another taser death in my own home cowtown in Maryland.
posted by stavrogin at 8:36 PM on November 18, 2007

Obviously what we need is a better Taser screening program.

Which means, in this day and age, to screen out people susceptible to the effects of the beneficent Taser and summarily execute them before they can become an embarrassment to law enforcement, undermine the rule of law, allow the terrorists to win, and prevent police from returning home to their families at night in time for dinner. Or exherting themselves except to reach for another yummy donut and/or "the pad".

Another prediction: Some people on this thread will substantially agree with such a proposal and then deny it later.
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 9:39 AM on November 19, 2007

"People have died after being sprayed with Oleoresin Capsicum, yet nobody is screaming about that and trying to take our OC away from us."

Way to miss the point, C17H19NO3. It's not a question of Mace/Batons/Tasers and dutch rubs so much as it is police misuse of whatever tool is given to them resulting in deaths during apprehension and worse, deaths in custody. The Taser is just the new toy in this cycle. And a particularly vicious one apt to be misused by cowardly or lazy police.

Thing with Mace, is that it's rather difficult for it to be used to excess in a confined space without everyone in the room suffering the effects. Before you go to the old "well, at least they aren't shot" meme, same goes for the use of firearms in enclosed spaces. Those tools themselves enforces some discression in their use.

With the Taser, a policeman (or, more likely in these circumstances, a policeman with a dozen other officers milling around confused as to what they do for a living) can electrocute someone until the battery is dead, and so is the person in custody, with hardly a break in reaching for another Dunkin Donuts Munchkin.
posted by Reverend Mykeru at 9:50 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]