Palestinian musician expelled from West Bank
April 2, 2009 7:04 PM Subscribe
Wafa Younis is an Arab Israeli musician who organised a youth orchestra in the Jenin refugee camp. She recently brought her orchestra to play for Holocaust survivors at an Israeli old age home. The performance was strongly criticised by Palestinians as a hostile political act. Now the orchestra has been disbanded, its performance space sealed, and Ms Younis has been expelled from the West Bank.
This is really depressing. What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
This is really depressing. What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
At the end of the last lecture of my undergraduate career, I asked my Modern Middle Eastern History professor if she could give us one hopeful, optimistic statement about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its prognosis. She turned to me with sad eyes and said, "I can't."
posted by The White Hat at 7:22 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by The White Hat at 7:22 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:29 PM on April 2, 2009
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:29 PM on April 2, 2009
ChurchHatesTucker, I don't think you'll find anyone here who supports that act, but I really can't see what your comment adds to our understanding of this event. Was it an attempt to provide some balance by showing Israeli Jews behaving badly? Because I think that sort of retaliatory mentality is part of the problem.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:38 PM on April 2, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:38 PM on April 2, 2009 [3 favorites]
"What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?"
Every chance.
Your "strongly criticised" links link to 1) a reporter with an obvious agenda in the first link and 2) a NYT article that says that further criticism came from a Palestinan political activist group in the camp they played in in the second link.
They're wingnuts... obvious anti-semetic dipshits with an axe to grind. These sorts of people exist in any society... the kind who criticise anything that dosen't fall within their rigid, narrow view of the world and how it operates.
Nowhere do I see any actual evidence that actual Palestinan politicians have criticised the band. If the PLO can keep their mouth shut, there's a chance for peace right there.
And given that a Palestinan youth orchestra offered to do something like this, extending an olive branch so to speak, it shows that there is hope for peace. This orhestra is of The People... better yet, they are Young People. If peace has a chance of growing, it rests with The People; the masses who have enacted social and political change in every country since time in memoriam.
It rests with young people; those wonderful young people with bright ideas, hope in their heart and a willingness to see a better life than the one they witnessed their parents endure.
Peace always has a chance. Always. All we need to do is ignore societie's wingnuts with axes to grind and let The People do their work.
posted by Effigy2000 at 7:41 PM on April 2, 2009 [4 favorites]
Every chance.
Your "strongly criticised" links link to 1) a reporter with an obvious agenda in the first link and 2) a NYT article that says that further criticism came from a Palestinan political activist group in the camp they played in in the second link.
They're wingnuts... obvious anti-semetic dipshits with an axe to grind. These sorts of people exist in any society... the kind who criticise anything that dosen't fall within their rigid, narrow view of the world and how it operates.
Nowhere do I see any actual evidence that actual Palestinan politicians have criticised the band. If the PLO can keep their mouth shut, there's a chance for peace right there.
And given that a Palestinan youth orchestra offered to do something like this, extending an olive branch so to speak, it shows that there is hope for peace. This orhestra is of The People... better yet, they are Young People. If peace has a chance of growing, it rests with The People; the masses who have enacted social and political change in every country since time in memoriam.
It rests with young people; those wonderful young people with bright ideas, hope in their heart and a willingness to see a better life than the one they witnessed their parents endure.
Peace always has a chance. Always. All we need to do is ignore societie's wingnuts with axes to grind and let The People do their work.
posted by Effigy2000 at 7:41 PM on April 2, 2009 [4 favorites]
* societie's = society's
posted by Effigy2000 at 7:45 PM on April 2, 2009
posted by Effigy2000 at 7:45 PM on April 2, 2009
Great that you can be optimistic, Ef, but these thugs are the local PLO representative for the community the musicians come from. They're not just some guys. You may be right that they are out-of-control wingnuts, but both sides of the conflict find it very easy to pass control to out-of-control wingnuts when they are frustrated, which is often.
posted by grobstein at 7:47 PM on April 2, 2009
posted by grobstein at 7:47 PM on April 2, 2009
I started out reading the "Shame on us" piece with a mix of bewilderment and incomprehension, but I think it lays out the case fairly clearly, whatever you may think of it on the merits
The NYT piece says Palestinians have "widespread ignorance of the details of the Holocaust and a feeling that Palestinians paid a price for it, viewing it as a main catalyst for the establishment of the Jewish state"
The main criticism though doesn't seem to regard Holocaust denial, though there's a vague hint of it in the "Shame" piece, but a variety of objections to the act:
* Israelis are their oppressors, who their children unwittingly provided charity to
* some Israeli holocaust survivors took part in the initial takeover of Palestinian land in 1948
* the children dedicated a song to kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Schalit
Obviously the "optics" of this are very bad for the Palestinians, but if I try to put myself in their shoes it's not hard to understand why they're upset. There's an ongoing political dispute with the Israelis, and the holocaust survivors, the IDF soldier, and to a lesser extent Israelis in general are seen as enemies in this dispute. These children aren't likely to have understood these facts, and yet they were implicitly making a political statement through their performance, which to make matters worse was led by an Israeli
Just for context, these Palestinians are living in a permanent refugee camp that, according to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, was the victim of war crimes by Israel as recently as 2002
posted by crayz at 7:50 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
The NYT piece says Palestinians have "widespread ignorance of the details of the Holocaust and a feeling that Palestinians paid a price for it, viewing it as a main catalyst for the establishment of the Jewish state"
The main criticism though doesn't seem to regard Holocaust denial, though there's a vague hint of it in the "Shame" piece, but a variety of objections to the act:
* Israelis are their oppressors, who their children unwittingly provided charity to
* some Israeli holocaust survivors took part in the initial takeover of Palestinian land in 1948
* the children dedicated a song to kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Schalit
Obviously the "optics" of this are very bad for the Palestinians, but if I try to put myself in their shoes it's not hard to understand why they're upset. There's an ongoing political dispute with the Israelis, and the holocaust survivors, the IDF soldier, and to a lesser extent Israelis in general are seen as enemies in this dispute. These children aren't likely to have understood these facts, and yet they were implicitly making a political statement through their performance, which to make matters worse was led by an Israeli
Just for context, these Palestinians are living in a permanent refugee camp that, according to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, was the victim of war crimes by Israel as recently as 2002
What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?Maybe it would help if you understood why they reacted that way before hoping to change it
posted by crayz at 7:50 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
There is a complex, bitter and ironic truth that casts its deep shadow over this whole affair, and I can't imagine any better way to encapsulate it, somehow, than in DecemberBoy's quoted comment above. A well-chosen quote indeed.
Joe in Australia writes: What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
ChurchHatesTucker writes: What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
When every simple gesture toward some sort of reconciliation is met with yet another finger from either side pointing to yet another atrocity, in an endless cycle, well, I reckon there's very little chance for peace. There's always a latest outrage in a long string of outrages, and they are used as justification for the next cycle of outrages. Ideally, people will move beyond this mentality, but they need government and leadership brave enough to stop this cycle of revenge, to break with the past and move forward in a new direction. Unfortunately, what grobstein says directly above: "both sides of the conflict find it very easy to pass control to out-of-control wingnuts when they are frustrated, which is often." is all too true.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:55 PM on April 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
Joe in Australia writes: What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
ChurchHatesTucker writes: What chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
When every simple gesture toward some sort of reconciliation is met with yet another finger from either side pointing to yet another atrocity, in an endless cycle, well, I reckon there's very little chance for peace. There's always a latest outrage in a long string of outrages, and they are used as justification for the next cycle of outrages. Ideally, people will move beyond this mentality, but they need government and leadership brave enough to stop this cycle of revenge, to break with the past and move forward in a new direction. Unfortunately, what grobstein says directly above: "both sides of the conflict find it very easy to pass control to out-of-control wingnuts when they are frustrated, which is often." is all too true.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:55 PM on April 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
"Great that you can be optimistic, Ef, but these thugs are the local PLO representative for the community the musicians come from. They're not just some guys. You may be right that they are out-of-control wingnuts, but both sides of the conflict find it very easy to pass control to out-of-control wingnuts when they are frustrated, which is often."
posted by grobstein at 1:47 PM on April 3
Yep, I get that. Every political fringe group usually have ties to mainstream political organisations in some way, be it direct or be it through a 'Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon' style linkage system.
But that wasn't my main point. My main point was peace always has a chance, especially when people are doing extraordinary, olive branch style acts such as what this youth orchestra did. They did in spite of the wingnuts, and those in attendance would, I hope, not have lost the significance of their act.
Peace always has a chance, in spite of those who try to stop it, because ultimately the nutjobs are in the minority, and it will be The People, both young and old, sick to death of The Way Things Are, who chance society through acts like this, and more.
posted by Effigy2000 at 8:05 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by grobstein at 1:47 PM on April 3
Yep, I get that. Every political fringe group usually have ties to mainstream political organisations in some way, be it direct or be it through a 'Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon' style linkage system.
But that wasn't my main point. My main point was peace always has a chance, especially when people are doing extraordinary, olive branch style acts such as what this youth orchestra did. They did in spite of the wingnuts, and those in attendance would, I hope, not have lost the significance of their act.
Peace always has a chance, in spite of those who try to stop it, because ultimately the nutjobs are in the minority, and it will be The People, both young and old, sick to death of The Way Things Are, who chance society through acts like this, and more.
posted by Effigy2000 at 8:05 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
These children aren't likely to have understood these facts, and yet they were implicitly making a political statement through their performance, which to make matters worse was led by an Israeli [Arab, i.e., a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship.]
Anything a child innocently does can implicitly make political statements. The power of these statements is not wholly exploitative. Rather, the innocence contains wisdom. The adults are meant to learn from the children's innocence.
The children did not "unwittingly" provide charity to the aging Jews -- they were not hypnotized, or even tricked; their acts were intentional and voluntary: they knew they were playing music for nice old people. What they didn't know is that they were supposed to regard those old people as enemies.
Is it evidence of brainwashing that the children don't regard friendly non-combatants as mortal foes? Or is brainwashing what happens later, what does away with that child-like attitude and replaces it with political weapons for the hardliners?
posted by grobstein at 8:32 PM on April 2, 2009 [10 favorites]
Anything a child innocently does can implicitly make political statements. The power of these statements is not wholly exploitative. Rather, the innocence contains wisdom. The adults are meant to learn from the children's innocence.
The children did not "unwittingly" provide charity to the aging Jews -- they were not hypnotized, or even tricked; their acts were intentional and voluntary: they knew they were playing music for nice old people. What they didn't know is that they were supposed to regard those old people as enemies.
Is it evidence of brainwashing that the children don't regard friendly non-combatants as mortal foes? Or is brainwashing what happens later, what does away with that child-like attitude and replaces it with political weapons for the hardliners?
posted by grobstein at 8:32 PM on April 2, 2009 [10 favorites]
So, it's okay if you're international superstar Daniel Barenboim, but not if you're relatively unknown musician Wafa Younis.
posted by trombodie at 8:42 PM on April 2, 2009
posted by trombodie at 8:42 PM on April 2, 2009
So, it's okay if you're international superstar Daniel Barenboim, but not if you're relatively unknown musician Wafa Younis.
Hey, it's also no secret that "international superstars" can often get things going where "relatively unknowns" can't. It's unfortunate that Younis has been shut down, but that shouldn't take away from the good work that the Barenboim project seems to be doing. And, Barenboim and Co. certainly deserve kudos for these explicit statements on the top page of their website:
- There is no military solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
- The destinies of the Israeli and Palestinian people are inextricably linked and the land that some call Greater Israel and others Palestine is a land for two people.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:48 PM on April 2, 2009
Hey, it's also no secret that "international superstars" can often get things going where "relatively unknowns" can't. It's unfortunate that Younis has been shut down, but that shouldn't take away from the good work that the Barenboim project seems to be doing. And, Barenboim and Co. certainly deserve kudos for these explicit statements on the top page of their website:
- There is no military solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
- The destinies of the Israeli and Palestinian people are inextricably linked and the land that some call Greater Israel and others Palestine is a land for two people.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:48 PM on April 2, 2009
To me the situation is SO ridiculously one sided.
Here we go...
"I'm not anti Semitic but..."
A modern state in the 21st century just shouldn't act this way, it's wrong. It's utter bullshit to say "give piece a chance" - OK then, you do that- where would you start giving peace a chance?
Pull down the wall? Allow free movement across the territories? Allow right of return to Palestinian people who still hold the deeds to their houses seized in the wars? Stop the collective punishment? ...the random sniper fire? ... the land grabbing settlements? ... the proposed settler only light rail? ...the Israeli navy sinking fishing boats and destroying nets? ...the bulldozing and destruction of houses? Allow Palestinian kids actually access school or uni with some degree of regularity- on indeed without the fear of harm? Stop the enforced electricity cuts? Let fuel and medicine into the territories?
I'm sorry, but if god gave Jewish people the "holy" land, I think that some proof of that should be forthcoming. It's utter bullshit to cling to this moronic voodoo notion that some invisible being somehow granted the modern state of Israel to the exclusive use followers of the Jewish religion - like some massive country club.
I'm sure the Australian Aborigines or indeed native populations the world over would love to have such a god on their side- one that can pull strings in the UN and the Oval office.
What do the Palestinian people need to do? Lie down and suck it up? At least it a modern pluralistic liberal democracy doing this to them, it could be worse I suppose.
posted by mattoxic at 8:51 PM on April 2, 2009 [7 favorites]
Here we go...
"I'm not anti Semitic but..."
A modern state in the 21st century just shouldn't act this way, it's wrong. It's utter bullshit to say "give piece a chance" - OK then, you do that- where would you start giving peace a chance?
Pull down the wall? Allow free movement across the territories? Allow right of return to Palestinian people who still hold the deeds to their houses seized in the wars? Stop the collective punishment? ...the random sniper fire? ... the land grabbing settlements? ... the proposed settler only light rail? ...the Israeli navy sinking fishing boats and destroying nets? ...the bulldozing and destruction of houses? Allow Palestinian kids actually access school or uni with some degree of regularity- on indeed without the fear of harm? Stop the enforced electricity cuts? Let fuel and medicine into the territories?
I'm sorry, but if god gave Jewish people the "holy" land, I think that some proof of that should be forthcoming. It's utter bullshit to cling to this moronic voodoo notion that some invisible being somehow granted the modern state of Israel to the exclusive use followers of the Jewish religion - like some massive country club.
I'm sure the Australian Aborigines or indeed native populations the world over would love to have such a god on their side- one that can pull strings in the UN and the Oval office.
What do the Palestinian people need to do? Lie down and suck it up? At least it a modern pluralistic liberal democracy doing this to them, it could be worse I suppose.
posted by mattoxic at 8:51 PM on April 2, 2009 [7 favorites]
Contrary to the pessimistic tone invoked in the OP, like Effigy2000, I'm actually rather encouraged by this, much like I am by the occasional Israeli conscientious objectors. When these people can at least attempt what they do, there is hope.
posted by Amanojaku at 8:57 PM on April 2, 2009
posted by Amanojaku at 8:57 PM on April 2, 2009
Given that Palestinians are currently dying in Gaza due to malnutrition and completely treatable illnesses, with people still having problems getting humanitarian supplies into Gaza, and that the organizer went out of her way to politicize the event, I'd have to say that, yes, the anger in this matter is pretty understandable and predictable, so soon after the attack on Gaza.
So, when was the last time the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra performed in the West Bank?
posted by markkraft at 8:58 PM on April 2, 2009
So, when was the last time the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra performed in the West Bank?
posted by markkraft at 8:58 PM on April 2, 2009
...so soon after the attack on Gaza.
sigh...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:07 PM on April 2, 2009
sigh...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 9:07 PM on April 2, 2009
"This is really depressing. What chance can there be for peace if people react this way? "
Gee Joe, I'm not sure... let's take a trip in the wayback machine and find out!
"Joe in Australia, uh, all of the Palestinians were there first?
I thought that was what you were saying, but it is at odds with both reason and decency and I hoped I had misunderstood you. It's factually wrong because of course not all Palestinians were born there. People travel: it's a fact of life."
Ethnic cleaning + willful blindness = travel!
So... what chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
posted by markkraft at 9:15 PM on April 2, 2009
Gee Joe, I'm not sure... let's take a trip in the wayback machine and find out!
"Joe in Australia, uh, all of the Palestinians were there first?
I thought that was what you were saying, but it is at odds with both reason and decency and I hoped I had misunderstood you. It's factually wrong because of course not all Palestinians were born there. People travel: it's a fact of life."
Ethnic cleaning + willful blindness = travel!
So... what chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
posted by markkraft at 9:15 PM on April 2, 2009
the innocence contains wisdom. The adults are meant to learn from the children's innocence.An Israeli adult planned and led the event. Therefore is it not one adult meaning to "teach" other adults via their children? If the adults are meant to learn from the event their children participated in, does that not make it more than apolitical charity?
The children did not "unwittingly" provide charity to the aging Jews -- they were not hypnotized, or even tricked; their acts were intentional and voluntary: they knew they were playing music for nice old people. What they didn't know is that they were supposed to regard those old people as enemies.Most/all western societies a holocaust survivor is seen as one of the most innocent and mistreated people alive. In Palestine, Israeli holocaust survivors are seen by some as members of an opposition group in general and as perpetrators of the initial occupation in particular
To describe this as innocent children performing innocent charity is to simply disregard the offense taken by this group of people; to judge it invalid. It is their children who performed, and it is they who are offended
Is it really you, sitting in Australia or the US or Europe, who knows best how these people should perceive the actions of their neighbors?
posted by crayz at 9:22 PM on April 2, 2009
When every simple gesture toward some sort of reconciliation is met with yet another finger from either side pointing to yet another atrocity, in an endless cycle, well, I reckon there's very little chance for peace.
There have been atrocities on both sides; I think a better way of presenting the question of what chance peace has when people act this way would have been to present parallel tales. There are certainly many to choose from, sadly. I think ChurchHatesTucker's link was an attempt to redress a post that could easily have been interpreted as one-dimensional and possibly propagandistic. Both posts were interesting, and the stories within both very unfortunate.
But for the original poster to refer to ChurchHatesTucker's post as the product of "retaliatory mentality" creates the unfortunate impression that perhaps the first post was intended to be propagandistic in nature. ChurchHatesTucker's post was not, on the surface, any more negative than the initial post, so if the latter post is "retaliatory" in some way, then the former could fairly be described as initially aggressive. Add to this one's posting history on the subject (as markkraft points out) and well, judge for yourself.
That said, trombodie trumps ChurchHatesTucker's post by actually coming up with a post that relates more obviously to the Wafa Younis story. The link provided doesn't say much. I'd cut and paste from Wikipedia but the story is a bit long and resists simple editing . . . so I'll keep it short and just urge interested parties to look up "Daniel Barenboim" on Wikipedia if they want to add another dimension to the two stories already posted here.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:23 PM on April 2, 2009
There have been atrocities on both sides; I think a better way of presenting the question of what chance peace has when people act this way would have been to present parallel tales. There are certainly many to choose from, sadly. I think ChurchHatesTucker's link was an attempt to redress a post that could easily have been interpreted as one-dimensional and possibly propagandistic. Both posts were interesting, and the stories within both very unfortunate.
But for the original poster to refer to ChurchHatesTucker's post as the product of "retaliatory mentality" creates the unfortunate impression that perhaps the first post was intended to be propagandistic in nature. ChurchHatesTucker's post was not, on the surface, any more negative than the initial post, so if the latter post is "retaliatory" in some way, then the former could fairly be described as initially aggressive. Add to this one's posting history on the subject (as markkraft points out) and well, judge for yourself.
That said, trombodie trumps ChurchHatesTucker's post by actually coming up with a post that relates more obviously to the Wafa Younis story. The link provided doesn't say much. I'd cut and paste from Wikipedia but the story is a bit long and resists simple editing . . . so I'll keep it short and just urge interested parties to look up "Daniel Barenboim" on Wikipedia if they want to add another dimension to the two stories already posted here.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:23 PM on April 2, 2009
In other words, I have a *REAL* problem with people who have a hard time acknowledging the wrong done against the Palestinians saying "what chance can there be for peace?" It's an easy, lazy way out.
If Israelis really wanted peace that badly, they would be working towards it themselves in their personal lives. They would vote for peace. They would build bridges for peace, and would insist on visiting the West Bank and Gaza on their weekends, so that they could help rebuild the hellholes their government has helped to create.
But we don't see enough of that, and such Israeli groups are largely ridiculed and ignored by their own people, treated like traitors to the cause. Instead, all we hear from them is completely bullsh*t reasons why a peace is impossible, even when the rest of the world insists upon it.
It's like the old joke... they want peace alright. A piece of the West Bank, a piece of Jerusalem, a piece of the Golan Heights, a piece of the Palestinian water supplies...
posted by markkraft at 9:27 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
If Israelis really wanted peace that badly, they would be working towards it themselves in their personal lives. They would vote for peace. They would build bridges for peace, and would insist on visiting the West Bank and Gaza on their weekends, so that they could help rebuild the hellholes their government has helped to create.
But we don't see enough of that, and such Israeli groups are largely ridiculed and ignored by their own people, treated like traitors to the cause. Instead, all we hear from them is completely bullsh*t reasons why a peace is impossible, even when the rest of the world insists upon it.
It's like the old joke... they want peace alright. A piece of the West Bank, a piece of Jerusalem, a piece of the Golan Heights, a piece of the Palestinian water supplies...
posted by markkraft at 9:27 PM on April 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
You accuse me of discounting the perspective of the offended Palestinian adults, perhaps these kids parents (note here that the kids' literal parents probably didn't disapprove; rather a local politico disapproved; it doesn't matter, though). What I'm trying to get at is that you are discounting the perspective of the kids. The kids' innocence and openness hold lessons for the adults on both sides of the conflict.
Some people will be offended, anyway. I'm sad about that, and I acknowledge that it happens. But I don't have to acknowledge that it is "valid." Speaking broadly, it is the problem.
And though the woman is certainly Israeli, it's important that she's Israeli-Arab, because the conflict is a racial one. You seem bent on ignoring this fact.
posted by grobstein at 9:37 PM on April 2, 2009
Some people will be offended, anyway. I'm sad about that, and I acknowledge that it happens. But I don't have to acknowledge that it is "valid." Speaking broadly, it is the problem.
And though the woman is certainly Israeli, it's important that she's Israeli-Arab, because the conflict is a racial one. You seem bent on ignoring this fact.
posted by grobstein at 9:37 PM on April 2, 2009
Since the Ay-rabs bulldozed her house, maybe some ultra-Orthodox setltlers can take her in, after they get the wrest "their land from the Palestinians.
Oh, wait, you mean the Middle-East situation is more complicated than "Look, look Palestinians hate the Arts!! Ignore what happened in Gaza, what's happening in the West bank, ignore the Occupation, but look at what those barbaric Palestinians did to a poor women who played music for Holocaust survivors!"
This is a manipulative FPP, made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears.
posted by orthogonality at 9:38 PM on April 2, 2009 [4 favorites]
Oh, wait, you mean the Middle-East situation is more complicated than "Look, look Palestinians hate the Arts!! Ignore what happened in Gaza, what's happening in the West bank, ignore the Occupation, but look at what those barbaric Palestinians did to a poor women who played music for Holocaust survivors!"
This is a manipulative FPP, made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears.
posted by orthogonality at 9:38 PM on April 2, 2009 [4 favorites]
markkraft and mattoxic have correct points about the Israel / Palestine conflict and specifically about things that Israel has done. But they seem slightly out of place in this thread, which after all is about an overture towards peace made by Arabs, and the backlash against that overture within (some part of) the Palestinian community.
I guess the problem is that Joe the OP's [more inside] comment can be seen as blaming the conflict generally on Palestinians' failure to cooperate. This seems wrong; both sides have failed to cooperate at crucial times. Why don't we agree on that and not beat each other up?
posted by grobstein at 9:42 PM on April 2, 2009
I guess the problem is that Joe the OP's [more inside] comment can be seen as blaming the conflict generally on Palestinians' failure to cooperate. This seems wrong; both sides have failed to cooperate at crucial times. Why don't we agree on that and not beat each other up?
posted by grobstein at 9:42 PM on April 2, 2009
grobstein, I'm actually a bit cynical about the subjet of the post, it has a ring of "see what happens if they even try to do something with the Israelis, tsk tsk tsk, what hope peace if they are going to behave in this way"
posted by mattoxic at 9:45 PM on April 2, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by mattoxic at 9:45 PM on April 2, 2009 [3 favorites]
What do you think would have happened in the U.S. if the Dixie Chicks had been playing in Saddam's Iraq, rather then Germany after 9/11, and dedicated one of their songs to some captured Palestinian militant?
I'm not saying what happened was good, but just think back to the way the U.S. was acting after 9/11
posted by delmoi at 9:51 PM on April 2, 2009
I'm not saying what happened was good, but just think back to the way the U.S. was acting after 9/11
posted by delmoi at 9:51 PM on April 2, 2009
grobstein, if both sides had equal power, blaming them equally would make sense.
posted by shetterly at 9:57 PM on April 2, 2009
posted by shetterly at 9:57 PM on April 2, 2009
This is a manipulative FPP, made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears.
Where was your outrage at all the one-sided, manipulative FPPs made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears that have been demonizing Israel for the past several months? If hypocrisy could kill, you'd have had twenty heart attacks by now.
So... what chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
Until your blameless innocent victims take a break from hacking children to death with axes, not much.
posted by Krrrlson at 10:08 PM on April 2, 2009
Where was your outrage at all the one-sided, manipulative FPPs made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears that have been demonizing Israel for the past several months? If hypocrisy could kill, you'd have had twenty heart attacks by now.
So... what chance can there be for peace if people react this way?
Until your blameless innocent victims take a break from hacking children to death with axes, not much.
posted by Krrrlson at 10:08 PM on April 2, 2009
I was expecting something horrifying, along the lines of the Canadian workplace safety or cafe assault PSAs. I guess the metaphor here is
The article says teenagers. Also:terrorists ax murders have won! Makes sense, after all, every single Palestinian is responsible for the actions of one of them, that's why collective punishment is considered so humane. I'm pretty sure that's, like, in the Geneva conventions or something.
posted by delmoi at 10:21 PM on April 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
The article says teenagers. Also:
The attack Thursday in the militant Jewish settlement of Bat Ayin prompted warnings from settler groups and right-wing politicians that any concessions such as lifting roadblocks, easing travel restrictions and halting settlement expansion would amount to surrender to the enemy.That's right, if we don't steal more land from people of similar ethno-sectarian persuasion the
posted by delmoi at 10:21 PM on April 2, 2009 [2 favorites]
ut I'll see your random, deplorable axe murderer and raise you a Google image search
Meaningless. Krrrlson knows all those photos are staged. Hamas has a sophisticated propaganda operation.
posted by delmoi at 10:25 PM on April 2, 2009
Meaningless. Krrrlson knows all those photos are staged. Hamas has a sophisticated propaganda operation.
posted by delmoi at 10:25 PM on April 2, 2009
it has a ring of "see what happens if they even try to do something with the Israelis
I certainly didn't intend to convey that message. My reaction, which appears to be the general reaction outside Metafilter, was that Ms Younis's actions were well-intentioned and commendable if perhaps naive. I don't think any genuine peace can come about without people who push the boundaries of reconciliation forward.
I was dismayed at the official response because it wasn't just a heavy-handed failure to cooperate: it was aimed at eliminating something which had led to contact between Palestinians and Jews. I could understand (although I would have deplored) an official telling Ms Younis not to do that sort of thing again, but it went so much further: she has (reportedly) been banned from the West Bank. Her school has been shuttered. The program is ended. And all because she had the temerity to have them play for some old Jews in a hospital. That's why I am despondent. And once again, I think this is the general reaction outside Metafilter. It's not "how can there be peace when people are so horrible?"; it's "how can there be peace when there is an officially mediated ban on peacemakers".
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:26 PM on April 2, 2009 [4 favorites]
I certainly didn't intend to convey that message. My reaction, which appears to be the general reaction outside Metafilter, was that Ms Younis's actions were well-intentioned and commendable if perhaps naive. I don't think any genuine peace can come about without people who push the boundaries of reconciliation forward.
I was dismayed at the official response because it wasn't just a heavy-handed failure to cooperate: it was aimed at eliminating something which had led to contact between Palestinians and Jews. I could understand (although I would have deplored) an official telling Ms Younis not to do that sort of thing again, but it went so much further: she has (reportedly) been banned from the West Bank. Her school has been shuttered. The program is ended. And all because she had the temerity to have them play for some old Jews in a hospital. That's why I am despondent. And once again, I think this is the general reaction outside Metafilter. It's not "how can there be peace when people are so horrible?"; it's "how can there be peace when there is an officially mediated ban on peacemakers".
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:26 PM on April 2, 2009 [4 favorites]
In one hand we have a (dare I say it American accented) Israeli spokesperson, he/she's wearing a nice suit, sitting in a well lit studio, sounds educated and very reasonable, as opposed to crowds of brown, dusty people shouting into the camera looking frantic and scary.
They don't look like us, they look like the people who do suicide bombings, we can't see the women's faces, the children look like urchins, it looks like they live in some shithole that they can't take care of.
I know who's side I'm on. The wall has been a total failure, the Israelis just fly over it.
posted by mattoxic at 11:39 PM on April 2, 2009
They don't look like us, they look like the people who do suicide bombings, we can't see the women's faces, the children look like urchins, it looks like they live in some shithole that they can't take care of.
I know who's side I'm on. The wall has been a total failure, the Israelis just fly over it.
posted by mattoxic at 11:39 PM on April 2, 2009
We all know that Israel is desperate for a peaceful solution. I'm in a bit of a rush so I'll let Seth Freedman make my point.
posted by adamvasco at 11:48 PM on April 2, 2009
posted by adamvasco at 11:48 PM on April 2, 2009
grobstein, if both sides had equal power, blaming them equally would make sense.
shetterly, you're not responding to anything I've said. Guys, "But Israel is to blame" is not a good comment for this thread, even if it's true.
posted by grobstein at 12:09 AM on April 3, 2009
shetterly, you're not responding to anything I've said. Guys, "But Israel is to blame" is not a good comment for this thread, even if it's true.
posted by grobstein at 12:09 AM on April 3, 2009
"Until your blameless innocent victims take a break from hacking children to death with axes, not much."
Ah, Bat Ayin... hometown to Adam Wexler and several other seriously messed up ultraorthodox illegal Israeli settlers, many of whom settled from the U.S. Only about a thousand settlers, but a lot of foaming-at-the-mouth nuts in the bunch.
"I don't believe that the Arab people has a right to live at all, let alone exist and live in the State of Israel..."
Too bad that one of the injured illegal settler kids couldn't be visited by his dad in the hospital... you see, his dad is in prison for being part of the Bat Ayin underground... a rabidly nationalist Israeli settler group whose members were arrested -- and convicted -- for trying to place a large explosive device near an East Jerusalem/Palestinian school for young girls.
It looks like the pick-axe wielder apparently chose his targets with clear intent... son of the leader of the illegal settlers/founder of the city, and the son of one of the would-be Israeli terrorist bombers.
This isn't a settlement Israelis should hold as an example... It's a bad reality TV show.
posted by markkraft at 12:12 AM on April 3, 2009
Ah, Bat Ayin... hometown to Adam Wexler and several other seriously messed up ultraorthodox illegal Israeli settlers, many of whom settled from the U.S. Only about a thousand settlers, but a lot of foaming-at-the-mouth nuts in the bunch.
"I don't believe that the Arab people has a right to live at all, let alone exist and live in the State of Israel..."
Too bad that one of the injured illegal settler kids couldn't be visited by his dad in the hospital... you see, his dad is in prison for being part of the Bat Ayin underground... a rabidly nationalist Israeli settler group whose members were arrested -- and convicted -- for trying to place a large explosive device near an East Jerusalem/Palestinian school for young girls.
It looks like the pick-axe wielder apparently chose his targets with clear intent... son of the leader of the illegal settlers/founder of the city, and the son of one of the would-be Israeli terrorist bombers.
This isn't a settlement Israelis should hold as an example... It's a bad reality TV show.
posted by markkraft at 12:12 AM on April 3, 2009
"If hypocrisy could kill, you'd have had twenty heart attacks by now."
Kkrrlson, as I've mentioned here, and I think you know, I nearly died of a heart attack, so your suggesting that I could or should have more is in particularly poor taste.
Maybe you can take a break and go smell some roses, or whatever it is you do when not performing tricks on the intarwebs.
posted by orthogonality at 2:11 AM on April 3, 2009
Kkrrlson, as I've mentioned here, and I think you know, I nearly died of a heart attack, so your suggesting that I could or should have more is in particularly poor taste.
Maybe you can take a break and go smell some roses, or whatever it is you do when not performing tricks on the intarwebs.
posted by orthogonality at 2:11 AM on April 3, 2009
Is anyone here actually defending the actions of the PA? I don't think there's any surprise that controversy ensued from the performance -- many of the points made are legitimate. To me, the question here is whether officially expelling someone is prudent or just demagogy. I don't think those here railing against the FPP actually support the US confiscating funds and rejecting visas of those people tied to muslim charities with specious accusations of terrorism funding.
posted by FuManchu at 3:48 AM on April 3, 2009
posted by FuManchu at 3:48 AM on April 3, 2009
And actually, after re-reading I'm still not clear on whether anything official was done. It seemed like the studio closing was official, but not her expulsion? Is that right?
posted by FuManchu at 4:04 AM on April 3, 2009
posted by FuManchu at 4:04 AM on April 3, 2009
Joe, the article you link to with the word "expelled" says ten men who were not the police got upset, and then the police chief asked her to stay away for a while. Nothing official was done there, nor was it a case of the Palestinian masses driving her out. "Expelled" is extremely misleading. Maybe she should've protested, but I think she was being sensitive to a divisive issue. After all, the community had recently been under a brutal assault, as you may remember.
grobstein, my apologies. I thought you were doing the "both sides are to blame" thing. That story is only valid when both sides are equal. When one side has the power, it has the responsibility for creating a just peace. In this case, that means full Israeli citizenship for Palestinians, or a valid Palestinian state, or maybe a third thing that gives Palestinians equal rights in the land where genetic analysis proves many of them have lived since the days of Canaan.
posted by shetterly at 10:01 AM on April 3, 2009
grobstein, my apologies. I thought you were doing the "both sides are to blame" thing. That story is only valid when both sides are equal. When one side has the power, it has the responsibility for creating a just peace. In this case, that means full Israeli citizenship for Palestinians, or a valid Palestinian state, or maybe a third thing that gives Palestinians equal rights in the land where genetic analysis proves many of them have lived since the days of Canaan.
posted by shetterly at 10:01 AM on April 3, 2009
I do think both sides are to blame. I won't presume to say that both sides are "equally" to blame (the position you put me on initially), but I think it's unquestionable that both sides have been an obstacle to peace at a potentially pivotal time. So maybe we do disagree about something. Your all-or-nothing formulation looks wrong to me; even if Israel is at fault, both sides have some responsibility to try for peace.
It surely does matter who started it, who has committed quantitatively more atrocities, and who has relatively more power to change things -- I just don't believe that's all that matters.
posted by grobstein at 10:15 AM on April 3, 2009
It surely does matter who started it, who has committed quantitatively more atrocities, and who has relatively more power to change things -- I just don't believe that's all that matters.
posted by grobstein at 10:15 AM on April 3, 2009
This is a manipulative FPP, made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears.
Yes, because unless it made clear that Israel is an EVIL ENTITY WITH NO RIGHT TO EXIST then it is nothing but propaganda! And any tears shed for the unlikely prospect of peace must be "crocodile tears" because it is impossible to wish for peace unless you wish that the EVIL ENTITY WITH NO RIGHT TO EXIST would stop existing! Thank you for episode #2511891 in the ongoing Middle East Deathmatch: No Peace! series.
Thanks for the post, Joe in Australia; I'm as depressed as you are, which doubtless makes me either anti-Semitic or a hater of Arabs. Put the cuffs on me, officer.
posted by languagehat at 12:58 PM on April 3, 2009 [4 favorites]
Yes, because unless it made clear that Israel is an EVIL ENTITY WITH NO RIGHT TO EXIST then it is nothing but propaganda! And any tears shed for the unlikely prospect of peace must be "crocodile tears" because it is impossible to wish for peace unless you wish that the EVIL ENTITY WITH NO RIGHT TO EXIST would stop existing! Thank you for episode #2511891 in the ongoing Middle East Deathmatch: No Peace! series.
Thanks for the post, Joe in Australia; I'm as depressed as you are, which doubtless makes me either anti-Semitic or a hater of Arabs. Put the cuffs on me, officer.
posted by languagehat at 12:58 PM on April 3, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is a manipulative FPP, made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears.
No, it's a good FPP about a depressing story.
Thanks for posting this, Joe.
posted by homunculus at 2:22 PM on April 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
No, it's a good FPP about a depressing story.
Thanks for posting this, Joe.
posted by homunculus at 2:22 PM on April 3, 2009 [1 favorite]
The fact that this thread has become so political really demonstrates, in so many ways, how much this entire situation is a load of crap.
The fact of the matter is that a group of child musicians entertaining elderly people should always be a good thing in this world. It doesn't matter who the kids are, where the seniors come from, or what barriers they had to cross in between. Yes, they did dedicate a song, and that's pushing it, but there are far too many kids with who've lost all chance at a childhood and have "nothing better to do" than to commit acts of violence, and far too many senior citizens rotting away without care and compassion, that nobody gets to condemn this, ever.
There is no political issue here. Kids (and the adults organizing them) did a nice thing for senior citizens. End of story.
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2009
The fact of the matter is that a group of child musicians entertaining elderly people should always be a good thing in this world. It doesn't matter who the kids are, where the seniors come from, or what barriers they had to cross in between. Yes, they did dedicate a song, and that's pushing it, but there are far too many kids with who've lost all chance at a childhood and have "nothing better to do" than to commit acts of violence, and far too many senior citizens rotting away without care and compassion, that nobody gets to condemn this, ever.
There is no political issue here. Kids (and the adults organizing them) did a nice thing for senior citizens. End of story.
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2009
This is a manipulative FPP, made of propagandizing links and crocodile tears.
posted by orthogonality at 10:38 PM on April 2 [4 favorites +] [!]
That's rich coming from you.
Interesting FPP, Joe, although indeed a depressing story.
posted by Snyder at 7:27 AM on April 4, 2009
posted by orthogonality at 10:38 PM on April 2 [4 favorites +] [!]
That's rich coming from you.
Interesting FPP, Joe, although indeed a depressing story.
posted by Snyder at 7:27 AM on April 4, 2009
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?
posted by DecemberBoy at 7:18 PM on April 2, 2009 [4 favorites]