Elements
August 8, 2009 12:40 AM Subscribe
Previously.
I remember trying Mytheria out a while back. I gave up on it because it was so slow, and because there didn't seem to be enough of a game there to be worth persevering with. Elements I've given a whirl and it seems the main innovation is grinding wins against the AI for more cards. Winning is also incredibly dependent on luck.
What really spoils both is that there's very little significant decision-making for the player and little interaction between cards on the board in play. They seem like they were designed by people who love the idea of those kind of card games, but are stuck on the superficial features without really understanding what makes the successful ones fun.
Compare to Spectromancer (commercial game, free version available), which also has only one player decision each turn and cards that are largely autonomous after you play them. But those are deliberate features, the whole game designed with them in mind, and as a result the play is options-rich and strategic.
Of course I'm comparing amateur labours of love to commercial projects by experienced designers. I'm curious how old the makers are actually, because they both reek of that schoolboy back-of-the-exercise-book-idea enthusiasm in the game design, but are technically and artistically impressive for being (presumably) the creation of just one or two dedicated amateurs. And I'll bet that they had a blast making their games.
posted by Lorc at 3:44 AM on August 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
I remember trying Mytheria out a while back. I gave up on it because it was so slow, and because there didn't seem to be enough of a game there to be worth persevering with. Elements I've given a whirl and it seems the main innovation is grinding wins against the AI for more cards. Winning is also incredibly dependent on luck.
What really spoils both is that there's very little significant decision-making for the player and little interaction between cards on the board in play. They seem like they were designed by people who love the idea of those kind of card games, but are stuck on the superficial features without really understanding what makes the successful ones fun.
Compare to Spectromancer (commercial game, free version available), which also has only one player decision each turn and cards that are largely autonomous after you play them. But those are deliberate features, the whole game designed with them in mind, and as a result the play is options-rich and strategic.
Of course I'm comparing amateur labours of love to commercial projects by experienced designers. I'm curious how old the makers are actually, because they both reek of that schoolboy back-of-the-exercise-book-idea enthusiasm in the game design, but are technically and artistically impressive for being (presumably) the creation of just one or two dedicated amateurs. And I'll bet that they had a blast making their games.
posted by Lorc at 3:44 AM on August 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
What really spoils both is that there's very little significant decision-making for the player
I'd agree with this if you're talking about decison-making while playing the cards, but for me the fun of these games, the strategy, is more in building your deck. The actual playing cards stuff is just what you do to see how your deck building decisions pan out. Deckbuilding is a component where both Spectromancer and the Necronomicon game are weaker than Mytheria and Elements.
I absolutely agree that there should be more interaction between cards in play though.
As for:
Winning is also incredibly dependent on luck.
With a 30 card minimum for your deck and an upper limit of I think 6(?) cards of a given type, you have far more control over what's likely to show up versus Magic the Gathering itself which is 60/4.
posted by juv3nal at 5:24 AM on August 8, 2009
I'd agree with this if you're talking about decison-making while playing the cards, but for me the fun of these games, the strategy, is more in building your deck. The actual playing cards stuff is just what you do to see how your deck building decisions pan out. Deckbuilding is a component where both Spectromancer and the Necronomicon game are weaker than Mytheria and Elements.
I absolutely agree that there should be more interaction between cards in play though.
As for:
Winning is also incredibly dependent on luck.
With a 30 card minimum for your deck and an upper limit of I think 6(?) cards of a given type, you have far more control over what's likely to show up versus Magic the Gathering itself which is 60/4.
posted by juv3nal at 5:24 AM on August 8, 2009
By the way, please don't take my criticisms of the games you link to as a criticism of the post itself. Even if Elements didn't do much for me, I'm glad to have been pointed at it.
posted by Lorc at 5:33 AM on August 8, 2009
posted by Lorc at 5:33 AM on August 8, 2009
My-the-ri-a... too... slow.... Can't... keep... focused....
Elements too buggy. Can't really get it to work for me (Firefox 3.52 on a Mac OS X 10.5.8).
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:22 AM on August 8, 2009
Elements too buggy. Can't really get it to work for me (Firefox 3.52 on a Mac OS X 10.5.8).
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:22 AM on August 8, 2009
Spectromancer's biggest weakness IMO was its lack of support of deckbuilding. I'm going to play these two games now...
posted by LSK at 8:41 AM on August 8, 2009
posted by LSK at 8:41 AM on August 8, 2009
Okay, I recall playing Mytheria before. Its biggest weakness is that it has too much local balance - each faction has a 1/1 for 1, for example. This is a very bad thing, as it makes the colors largely homogenous. Global balance (overall balance between factions) is good because no faction's strictly better; but local balance is not because it makes the game uninteresting.
In addition, its creator took the wrong lessons from Magic: the Gathering. Most of the support cards are underpowered and unplayable.
posted by LSK at 8:45 AM on August 8, 2009
In addition, its creator took the wrong lessons from Magic: the Gathering. Most of the support cards are underpowered and unplayable.
posted by LSK at 8:45 AM on August 8, 2009
I'm enjoying Elements so far... starting with Gravity seems to have been a huge boon. The Otyugh rocks.
posted by Shepherd at 9:11 AM on August 8, 2009
posted by Shepherd at 9:11 AM on August 8, 2009
I was enjoying Elements until I got to the point that I wanted to challenge the "Elder" elementals, which are the second most difficult computer opponents. What drove me crazy was that instead of giving them better decks or smarter strategies, the developers clearly just let the computer cheat. For example, there is a card that costs one "mana" to play, then costs another to summon a random creature. Every single time the computer played this card, they got a dragon, which should cost like 10 to play. So I'd be sitting around with fucking fleas on the second round, trying to fight back a swarm of huge dragons. That's not challenging; it's just unfair.
posted by martens at 1:08 PM on August 8, 2009
posted by martens at 1:08 PM on August 8, 2009
I've been playing Elements for a few days, and it's pretty intriguing. If you go in with a MTG mindset, chances are you're gonna get rolled pretty bad.
Martens, what color are you playing? I think you're talking about time eggs, and there's a lot of very simple strategies to neutralize them.
posted by boo_radley at 1:17 PM on August 8, 2009
Martens, what color are you playing? I think you're talking about time eggs, and there's a lot of very simple strategies to neutralize them.
posted by boo_radley at 1:17 PM on August 8, 2009
protip: for speed/rush based decks, novas (under entropy) can be a real help. I made the mistake of not paying that much attention to elements other than the ones I was using so I didn't discover those until many, many games in. I'd seen them used against me earlier but always just assumed they cost one or something, but they are free.
posted by juv3nal at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2009
posted by juv3nal at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2009
Huh. Just played a few hours of Elements. It seems neat but each element seems to have a pretty tiny set of card options. I tried playing against a Top 50 deck and against a live player, and it seems the "phase out of existence for 3 rounds" shield is a favorite- since i got mopped encountering it both times.
Any counters besides Gravity?
posted by yeloson at 2:17 AM on August 9, 2009
Any counters besides Gravity?
posted by yeloson at 2:17 AM on August 9, 2009
What really spoils both is the arty, elfy, unreadable freaking typeface. What is the spell for permenant blindness?
posted by DarlingBri at 1:21 PM on August 9, 2009
posted by DarlingBri at 1:21 PM on August 9, 2009
Oh for anyone grinding away at elements, pvp is the way to go if you have a half decent deck. There are apparently a lot of punters who don't know what they're doing and I've yet to see a reward as low as the 20x2 you get for mastering the level 3. I haven't mastered anyone in pvp, but still see min 40s to max 70s. Be prepared for people rage quitting and leaving you to wait for the timer to count down to collect your reward though.
posted by juv3nal at 3:16 PM on August 9, 2009
posted by juv3nal at 3:16 PM on August 9, 2009
kicking all sorts of butt in pvp, thought I'd share my secret tech:
6 quantum pillars
6 nova
2 lycanthrope !
1 otyugh
1 graboid
1 deflagration
1 druidic staff *
1 lava golem
1 arctic squid
1 golden dragon
1 firefly queen
1 owl's eye *
1 golden hourglass !
2 steal
1 minor vampire !
2 lightning
1 parallel universe
* sub your best rare weapons
! not sure about the 2nd lycanthrope and the others, probably some better options out there
Mana base is a little wonky (still maybe needs some tweaking), but basically I'm trying to spread my colors out and leverage the fact that the quantum pillars give 3:1 versus other pillars and the fact that novas generate all colors.
You only have 2 lightnings, so save them for stuff for stuff that will absolutely wreck you. If you have > 40 life, I wouldn't bother on something that does damage and nothing else (unless it can grow out of lightning range). Note that you can lightning something to get it into otyugh range.
Save the steal/deflagrate for shields/empathic bond/weapons that absolutely wreck you. Possible exception is if they appear mana stalled early and they've got a quantum pillar on the board then you might chance a steal.
Anyone running miracle and lots of shields will probably be able to run you out of cards, a good, focused otyugh deck is a bit of nightmare unless you luck out, and I've yet to come against a focused earthquake/devourer/steal deck, but otherwise you should have a decent chance in most matchups.
posted by juv3nal at 12:08 AM on August 10, 2009
6 quantum pillars
6 nova
2 lycanthrope !
1 otyugh
1 graboid
1 deflagration
1 druidic staff *
1 lava golem
1 arctic squid
1 golden dragon
1 firefly queen
1 owl's eye *
1 golden hourglass !
2 steal
1 minor vampire !
2 lightning
1 parallel universe
* sub your best rare weapons
! not sure about the 2nd lycanthrope and the others, probably some better options out there
Mana base is a little wonky (still maybe needs some tweaking), but basically I'm trying to spread my colors out and leverage the fact that the quantum pillars give 3:1 versus other pillars and the fact that novas generate all colors.
You only have 2 lightnings, so save them for stuff for stuff that will absolutely wreck you. If you have > 40 life, I wouldn't bother on something that does damage and nothing else (unless it can grow out of lightning range). Note that you can lightning something to get it into otyugh range.
Save the steal/deflagrate for shields/empathic bond/weapons that absolutely wreck you. Possible exception is if they appear mana stalled early and they've got a quantum pillar on the board then you might chance a steal.
Anyone running miracle and lots of shields will probably be able to run you out of cards, a good, focused otyugh deck is a bit of nightmare unless you luck out, and I've yet to come against a focused earthquake/devourer/steal deck, but otherwise you should have a decent chance in most matchups.
posted by juv3nal at 12:08 AM on August 10, 2009
report from the front: devourers not much of a problem at all. very weak to earthquakes.
posted by juv3nal at 4:12 AM on August 10, 2009
posted by juv3nal at 4:12 AM on August 10, 2009
I've been messing about with the game (Elements) and enjoying it, but the difficulty leap from Elders (whom I can beat handily with one exception) and False Gods is extreme: NOTHING has even made a dent on the False God AI to date.
I'm messing about with an Otyugh/Boneyard/Bone Wall/Vulture deck, with those Gravity armor dudes for defense. It kicks ass against all but the (not a coincidence) Otyugh/Bless deck, where the computer has buffed Otyughs faster than me, and then proceeds to devour my Otyughs as soon as they hit the floor, which pretty much negates my entire strategy since the Otyughs are my deck's main offense.
Not sure how to work around that. There's nothing to buff the Otyugh faster than the computer player can; the only option is to return to the Otyugh/Plate Armor format, but that's less fun than the Otyugh/Boneyard combo.
posted by Shepherd at 7:15 AM on August 10, 2009
I'm messing about with an Otyugh/Boneyard/Bone Wall/Vulture deck, with those Gravity armor dudes for defense. It kicks ass against all but the (not a coincidence) Otyugh/Bless deck, where the computer has buffed Otyughs faster than me, and then proceeds to devour my Otyughs as soon as they hit the floor, which pretty much negates my entire strategy since the Otyughs are my deck's main offense.
Not sure how to work around that. There's nothing to buff the Otyugh faster than the computer player can; the only option is to return to the Otyugh/Plate Armor format, but that's less fun than the Otyugh/Boneyard combo.
posted by Shepherd at 7:15 AM on August 10, 2009
Something else to check out is the XBox360 game Culdcept Saga. It's like Magic crossed with Monopoly. Great game, only complaint is that the turn animations turn some of the games into multi-hour sessions. Very fun and highly addictive.
posted by daHIFI at 9:32 AM on August 10, 2009
posted by daHIFI at 9:32 AM on August 10, 2009
also: hourglass not as dubious as previously thought.
posted by juv3nal at 10:15 AM on August 10, 2009
posted by juv3nal at 10:15 AM on August 10, 2009
I haven't even bothered with the false gods. It just sounds ridiculous. 200 life, 3x mark quanta, all upgraded cards. Blegh. I will have a crack at netdecking them once someone on the wiki posts some good ways to do that, but that's a loong ways off as I haven't even gotten any upgraded cards yet.
posted by juv3nal at 11:40 AM on August 10, 2009
posted by juv3nal at 11:40 AM on August 10, 2009
A good money making deck:
Life Mark:
5 heals : (replace 2 of those with druidic staffs if you get them)
13 Aether Pillars
6 Dimension Shields
4 Phase Dragons
3 Immortals
Play Elders and you should win with 100 life about half the time (maybe a little more) netting you 40 coin and 3 spins.
Of the ones where you don't get a full life bonus you'll 2 out of 3.
If you want to really farm for coin upgrade the Pillars to Towers as you get the money.
Some people on the forum are having luck farming the False Gods with a mono-Aether deck
Aether Mark:
6 dim shields
6 Phase Dragons
18 Aether Pillars
They are claiming a 10% win rate. Since the spins get you upgraded cards they sell for 750-800 coins each.
If you get a card every 9 spins (3 wins) you are making about the same as the level 3 farming on average, just with huge swings.
posted by Bonzai at 2:29 PM on August 10, 2009
Life Mark:
5 heals : (replace 2 of those with druidic staffs if you get them)
13 Aether Pillars
6 Dimension Shields
4 Phase Dragons
3 Immortals
Play Elders and you should win with 100 life about half the time (maybe a little more) netting you 40 coin and 3 spins.
Of the ones where you don't get a full life bonus you'll 2 out of 3.
If you want to really farm for coin upgrade the Pillars to Towers as you get the money.
Some people on the forum are having luck farming the False Gods with a mono-Aether deck
Aether Mark:
6 dim shields
6 Phase Dragons
18 Aether Pillars
They are claiming a 10% win rate. Since the spins get you upgraded cards they sell for 750-800 coins each.
If you get a card every 9 spins (3 wins) you are making about the same as the level 3 farming on average, just with huge swings.
posted by Bonzai at 2:29 PM on August 10, 2009
Man, 10% wins doesn't sound like fun at all. I'm managing to average around 5 for 6 in pvp where the non-mastery take starts at around 40. On the other hand, those upgraded cards are only worth 750-800 if you sell them. If you can actually use them, they save you having to pay 1500.
posted by juv3nal at 11:17 PM on August 10, 2009
posted by juv3nal at 11:17 PM on August 10, 2009
Saw this post just yesterday and spent way too much time last night playing Elements. On a whim, started with the Entropy Mark, which is fun in a learning-the-game type of way, but I don't see a primarily entropy-based deck as a strategy I'd use as I learn to build better decks. Chaos seeds and Mutations are fun, but too unreliable to be the basis of a solid strategy. (But I could be wrong; I see there's a mutation strategy listed on the wiki). Though the dissipation shield is better than most shields, I think, as long as you have the mana (er, "quanta") to power it. Maxwell's demon is nice against many dragons, and virus and/or plague can make creatures not normally vulnerable to MD susceptible.
With some tweaks I got to the point where I'm about 50-50 against level 3 decks. More work (if not a total revamp) is necessary before I go to PvP. I began by adding some obsidian pillars to more reliably pump up my lycanthropes than relying on the luck of quantum pillars. Added some additional chaos seeds and mutations. (First chaos seed didn't do anything against an annoying enemy creature? Try another!) With reliable darkness mana, some Steals seemed prudent, especially against some of the elite weapons in level 3 opponents, and by that point the quantum pillars seemed unnecessary. Nice use of multiple Steals: steal an opponent's weapon and a pillar to power its special ability, if you don't have a source for that particular mana.
Best win: opponent miracles himself up from ~20 to 99, with me around 60, and I still win. Worst losses: deck is weak against poison-heavy decks. Need to work on that.
I think three types of non-quantum pillars are about the most that can be effective, and even three is questionable. If I get at least one of each of my three types (entropy, death, darkness) in my initial draw I've got a pretty good shot of winning against a level 3 opponent; if not (which happens more often than I'd like) I could be in trouble.
Huh. Just played a few hours of Elements. It seems neat but each element seems to have a pretty tiny set of card options.
I kind of like that aspect. I've played Magic a few times in friendly settings, but never bought any of the cards myself, just borrowed decks from friends. One of the reasons I never got into it more seriously was the sheer number of cards involved (and not just the cost, either, but having to assimilate at least a general knowledge of all the cards). I think it's much more newbie-friendly to have a smaller cardset, as Elements does, while still having enough variety to allow many different deck strategies. Also, I think single-color decks are much less common in Elements than in Magic. Notably, all twelve of the "starter" decks are dual-colored.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:54 AM on August 11, 2009
With some tweaks I got to the point where I'm about 50-50 against level 3 decks. More work (if not a total revamp) is necessary before I go to PvP. I began by adding some obsidian pillars to more reliably pump up my lycanthropes than relying on the luck of quantum pillars. Added some additional chaos seeds and mutations. (First chaos seed didn't do anything against an annoying enemy creature? Try another!) With reliable darkness mana, some Steals seemed prudent, especially against some of the elite weapons in level 3 opponents, and by that point the quantum pillars seemed unnecessary. Nice use of multiple Steals: steal an opponent's weapon and a pillar to power its special ability, if you don't have a source for that particular mana.
Best win: opponent miracles himself up from ~20 to 99, with me around 60, and I still win. Worst losses: deck is weak against poison-heavy decks. Need to work on that.
I think three types of non-quantum pillars are about the most that can be effective, and even three is questionable. If I get at least one of each of my three types (entropy, death, darkness) in my initial draw I've got a pretty good shot of winning against a level 3 opponent; if not (which happens more often than I'd like) I could be in trouble.
Huh. Just played a few hours of Elements. It seems neat but each element seems to have a pretty tiny set of card options.
I kind of like that aspect. I've played Magic a few times in friendly settings, but never bought any of the cards myself, just borrowed decks from friends. One of the reasons I never got into it more seriously was the sheer number of cards involved (and not just the cost, either, but having to assimilate at least a general knowledge of all the cards). I think it's much more newbie-friendly to have a smaller cardset, as Elements does, while still having enough variety to allow many different deck strategies. Also, I think single-color decks are much less common in Elements than in Magic. Notably, all twelve of the "starter" decks are dual-colored.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:54 AM on August 11, 2009
I'm messing about with an Otyugh/Boneyard/Bone Wall/Vulture deck, with those Gravity armor dudes for defense. It kicks ass against all but the (not a coincidence) Otyugh/Bless deck, where the computer has buffed Otyughs faster than me, and then proceeds to devour my Otyughs as soon as they hit the floor, which pretty much negates my entire strategy since the Otyughs are my deck's main offense.
Not sure how to work around that.
Not sure how fast it would be, but since you're already running Death, maybe debuff rather than looking to race them on buffing: load up on viruses and plagues to hit their otyughs?
posted by juv3nal at 12:14 PM on August 11, 2009
Not sure how to work around that.
Not sure how fast it would be, but since you're already running Death, maybe debuff rather than looking to race them on buffing: load up on viruses and plagues to hit their otyughs?
posted by juv3nal at 12:14 PM on August 11, 2009
6 dim shields
6 Phase Dragons
18 Aether Pillars
I just went against a variant of this in pvp (had some immortals mixed in) and lucked my way into drawing a steal or deflagration every time he played a shield. So satisfying.
posted by juv3nal at 1:11 AM on August 12, 2009
6 Phase Dragons
18 Aether Pillars
I just went against a variant of this in pvp (had some immortals mixed in) and lucked my way into drawing a steal or deflagration every time he played a shield. So satisfying.
posted by juv3nal at 1:11 AM on August 12, 2009
Balance is always the issue: I'm having more luck running an all-Gravity deck with Earth as my sign than I did running a Death/Gravity/Earth. Since all I really want from Earth is Plate Armor and the occasional Earthquake, having it as my sign and 10 Gravity Pillars in my deck makes for a decent set-up.
My main Elder problem (I'm not doing PVP, as the timeouts annoy me) are the Poison/Freeze deck, which gets me up to taking 14 damage or so every turn by the end of Turn Five or so. The Otyugh/Bless deck isn't as much of a problem now, as I can usually Otyugh/Armor up pretty quickly to match 'em.
The all-Gravity also has more straight creatures in it, which is nice; anything that would stall the Otyugh deck would just forfeit my game when I ran out of cards. If the Otyughs aren't given anything to eat, I can't do any harm.
posted by Shepherd at 5:32 AM on August 12, 2009
My main Elder problem (I'm not doing PVP, as the timeouts annoy me) are the Poison/Freeze deck, which gets me up to taking 14 damage or so every turn by the end of Turn Five or so. The Otyugh/Bless deck isn't as much of a problem now, as I can usually Otyugh/Armor up pretty quickly to match 'em.
The all-Gravity also has more straight creatures in it, which is nice; anything that would stall the Otyugh deck would just forfeit my game when I ran out of cards. If the Otyughs aren't given anything to eat, I can't do any harm.
posted by Shepherd at 5:32 AM on August 12, 2009
For those put off by the grind and who don't really care about pvp there is now an official trainer/cheat mode (unlimited money etc.)
posted by juv3nal at 11:52 AM on August 24, 2009
posted by juv3nal at 11:52 AM on August 24, 2009
« Older One long step for mankind | Remembering Dennis Wolfberg Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Pronoiac at 1:02 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]